Change to Revision3 Show Formats – ATTENTION XVid, WMV and AppleTV users

January 19th, 2011 at 08:55 by Jim Louderback in Announcements

Here at Revision3, we’ve always wanted to embrace the widest possible viewership of our great programming. To that end, we’ve encoded in some pretty obscure formats over our five years of existence. But as our shows have grown – and as some formats have waned in popularity – we’ve regularly trimmed those formats back.

Well, as of the 24th of January, we’re going to be doing it again. As of that date, we will no longer deliver our shows in XVID or the phone-sized WMV format. And we’re also going to stop producing a 24 frames per second HD-class H.264 (aka MP4) format, although we’ll continue to deliver a great looking 720p format at 30 frames per second.

This will only impact a relative few of you, and in every case there are entirely acceptable alternatives to the formats we’re cutting. If you’re currently watching on XVID, for example, we’ll be replacing those XVID formats with equivalent MP4 formats in the exact same feeds, so as long as your player supports MP4, you shouldn’t notice anything. If your player of choice can’t read those feeds, never fear! There are at least two great programs that fully support MP4, and work across a wide variety of operating systems, including multiple flavors of UNIX, Linux, MacOS and Windows:

Miro: Miro offers a great environment to both subscribe to our shows via our feeds, as well as watch our great content. On their Miro Download All page, they currently support 9 or so different Linux/Unix variants and more.

VLC from VideoLan: The swiss army knife of video players, it plays everything! There are 9 versions of Linux supported – and they even support IBM’s OS/2!

If you currently use Windows Media, we’re not dropping our support for the format entirely. We are, though, only going to encode one WMV format going forward, a 640 pixel wide version that should work for everyone. Again, your feeds will not need to be replaced, as we’ll simply be putting that encoded version into our two existing WMV RSS/XML feeds.

The biggest changes will come to legacy AppleTV users. If you purchased one of the original AppleTVs (I know, I did), we will no longer be doing a 720p encode specifically for that unit. Because Apple included some pretty anemic video hardware into the original AppleTV, it supports HD feeds encoded only at 24 frames per second, not the more common 30 frames per second of traditional TV.

The new AppleTV, along with Apple’s iPad, will continue to support and use our regular 30fps 720p feed. But older AppleTV customers will either need to move to our lower-resolution MP4 format (designated as our “Tablet” feed), or upgrade to a more modern video settop box.

We feel your pain – no one likes to think that their hardware is becoming obsolete. But we’ve got good news for you Apple TV users. We’re giving away 5 brand new ROKU XDS set-top boxes, and offering everyone else a 10% discount – which brings the cost down to just 90 bucks. We think the Roku offers a great way to watch Revision3 content – and you can even buy a more basic Roku that supports our HD feeds for as little as $60.

To get the discount, and to be eligible for the giveaway, head over to the contest forum thread and post a picture of your old AppleTV, hooked up to your TV with a Revision3 show playing on the screen! Read the official contest rules here.

And thanks again to everyone who has supported us for so long. We don’t make these changes on a whim – but it costs time and money to do all these different encodes, and they keep us from delivering shows on time – and adding new shows too.

Plus, there are always more formats to add. We’re going to start encoding a very low bitrate version for Apple’s iPhone, and who knows what Google will force us to do – as it pushes WebM on the world!


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This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 19th, 2011 at 8:55 am and is filed under Announcements. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

  • megahurt

    Why can’t I post in the Roku contest thread? I keep trying but it just won’t let me post!

  • Stephanie Chu

    Hey Megahurt! Looks like you’ve had success posting in the forum. Good luck!

  • angelacaruso

    The only channel I cannot get to work on my new roku player is Revision3? The main reason I bought a Roku player was to watch this channel on my TV.
    You guys are my favorite internet channel.

    Thanks for any tips or suggestions you may have.

    Angela C.

  • Jim Louderback

    Angela, can you send me a private note with your email address, so we can explore? We’re pretty everywhere with Roku..

  • Slym

    It’s the 24th and you have still are releasing 24fps episodes. Did it get pushed back?

  • Stephanie Chu

    Hey Slym! Yep, the old formats are still lingering on Revision3.com — good eye! We’re still working on phasing them out as we speak and will still choose winners on Feb 1st. Don’t forget – if you don’t win, we’re still hooking you up with a sweet discount on the Roku XDS. Good luck!

  • mrschimpf

    I mainly watch through my PS3, but I saw that I got the ‘you may be affected’ video on the Diggnation and Tekzilla feeds on my TiVo. Do I have to do anything like enter a custom RSS feed or will it change over automatically?

  • Randy Farmer

    Is someone working with Tivo to update their Video On Demand feeds?

  • Darkknight512

    I’m wondering what exactly will be replacing the XVID small feed. I’m using a GP2x Wiz (open source handheld console) running a source built version of Mplayer and it will *play* the h.264.mp4 small files, but when the scene changes fast, the video will lock up. The GP2x Wiz’s CPU is overclocked to 800 Mhz. I use VLC to see why and H.264 CPU usage on my Q8300 overclocked to 3.0 Ghz jumps to 4-5% in fast scene changes. With XVID, CPU usage stays below 2%.

    If XVID small is being replaced with a lower bitrate mp4 then I should be fine. I’m hoping that I’m not going to have to pass everything through WinFF to play Rev3 shows on the go.

    Thanks.

  • Jim Louderback

    Nope, the PS3 will be fine, as will the TiVo. However, I don’t know what the TiVo issues are Randy, can you give us more detail?

    jim

  • ford_prefect2nd

    Just after H.264 gets dropped from one of the worlds most popular browsers on the as well as the fastest growing. Rev3 decided to move more users to said same closed format. It appears I owe those I told Rev3 did not have an Apple bias, an apology.
    It also appears I will no longer be able to play Rev3 shows on my phone. Was a great time, will miss Techzilla and AppJudgement. Thanks for the good times.

  • MyronCastleman

    Bring back XviD. My Cowon S9 won’t play MP4 or WMV properly. I’d watch on my Logitech Revue, but the buffering is horrible. Argghhh!

  • http://chrislesinski.com lesinski

    Tivo users shouldn’t have to update their feeds or change their subscriptions! Sorry for the confusion.

    - Chris

  • Jim Louderback

    Hey Ford, why can’t you watch us on your phone? As for Chrome, they are talking native support in an HTML5 wrapper – you’ll still be able to watch us using our flash player via h.264. And btw, one of the reasons we’re cutting older less used formats is so we can add stuff like WebM down the road if it takes off!

    And Myron, the Logitech Revue works just fine here in Revision3 HQ and at my house. But what you can do (to bring it down to the bit rate of the xvid) is to click on the lower right hand corner of the player (after the preroll plays) and change the quality to HIGH from HD. That will give you a stream the same size as the XVID stream.

    Thanks both you guys for watching!

  • Jim Louderback

    Dark Knight, we’re basically replacing xvid small with the mp4 small, which it sounds like is going to be a problem. However, we’re going to be releasing in the next week or so a 64kbps mp4 video format as well (primarily for apple’s iphone), but that will most likely play with no problems.

    You might also test the wmv large, not sure if it’ll work or not (probably not).

    But I’m afraid that apart from the 64k format you may be out of luck.

  • fjord321

    I love Revision 3, but this makes me sad a bit. I watch your videos on my Western Digital HD TV live plus and the only way to get “resume” capability is to watch your xvid encoded videos….I guess I will have to bug them more to get their “resume” function working for mp4s/h.264 … or you could bug them for me :)

  • fjord321

    Just to be specific, I use the Mediafly channel on the WD TV live Plus.

  • CoachBombay

    I can’t help but notice that you seem to have left 360 users out in the cold. I loved watching the HD xvids on my XBOX but now I am either stuck with the WMV or transcoding every single episode. Sad face.

  • manhunt545

    CoachBombay: the 360 can play H264 videos (just did it) without any transcoding. It can easily do WMV without any problems.

  • RyogaHibiki

    The latest version of VLC doesn’t play H.264 videos very well. It gets pixelated and sometimes crashes my computer.

    I switched to Media Player Classic Home Cinema, it’s available here:

    http://mpc-hc.sourceforge.net/

    It works great and is open source.

  • dmegalo

    IMHO, the world needs an open source cross platform standard that kicks booty, BRING ON THE WebM already! Now if we could get the TV, set top manufacturers and other giants to stop striving for proprietary dominance over streaming media then we might just stand a chance of reaching consumer nirvana. Thanks for the killer free content Rev3! I hope you grow to be a dominant force and change the world for the better. Over the air, over the top!

  • Darkknight512

    That sounds good Jim. My internet in Canada is having it’s bandwidth cap lowered to 15 GB per month so this might be a good thing. Now I’m wondering how the video looks at 64 kbps. I’m using a 2.5 inch OLED at 320×240.

  • reffle

    Since the change, I can no longer get the RSS feed for the Totally Rad Show to work in iTunes. Originally I was using the 30fps HD mp4 feed, however it now errors, I tried to subscribe to the feed listed on the website “http://revision3.com/trs/feed/MP4-High-Definition” which also gives the same error.

  • Jim Louderback

    Hey Coach Bombay, didn’t know that about xbox.. But the WMV is the same bit rate encode as the XVID that is going away. OR, use our fancy new Windows Media Center plug-in to get an HD experience on your xbox..

    On the WDTV plus, we’re still trying to find one so we can test it. Let’s see where we get!

    And thanks guys, above, for helping out! We’ll be carefully looking at WebM, and I hope to bring it on soon.

    jim

  • ghelyar

    I was using the 720p24 format without ever owning an Apple TV. The sole reason I was doing this was that the files were *much* smaller than the 30fps versions of the same resolution. There needs to be an HD feed that doesn’t chew up quite so much bandwidth. ISPs vary wildly around the world.

    Also a few of the show feeds don’t seem to have transferred over well. I had to resubscribe to Tekzilla 30fps because I wasn’t getting the episode on the old 24fps feed, but when I tried to resubscribe to Totally Rad Show, I either get ye olde “Quicktime HD” format or an 8006 error in iTunes on the 30fps.

    Finally, please decide between feed/mp4-hd30 and feed/MP4-High-Definition. It seems to change every now and then, and every time it changes you screw up everyone relying on it to stay the same for their podcatchers or rss aggregators.

  • dhausman

    Was the winner ever posted? I thought that was happening yesterday.

  • MHdeadhead

    hey dhausman, yup, we just announced the winners this morning: http://revision3.com/blog/2011/02/02/and-the-roku-contest-winners-are/

  • jerkbot

    “The new AppleTV, along with Apple’s iPad, will continue to support and use our regular 30fps 720p feed.”

    But the HD feed has never synced to the iPad through iTunes.

  • mock

    is anyone else getting lowest quality vids from rev3 on roku xds? it was all hd until this past weekend when i tried to watch diggnation and it switched to a single dot. i can’t seem to get it hd no matter what i try. my roku has latest update too.

  • Werd

    The main reason I spent over $300 for my first-gen Apple TV was so I could watch podcasts from the comfort of my couch without needing to have my computer on. iTunes kept all my podcast subscriptions updated, and all the unwatched episodes transferred in the background to my Apple TV. Then, whether I was on my lunch break or had shut down my computer for the day, I could easily catch up with all the latest episodes of my favorite shows. The next time I fired up my computer, all the watched statuses transferred (both ways), and any new episodes restocked my Apple TV. It was slick…

    Now you’re abandoning me (and the millions of other first-generation Apple TV owners out there). Yes, I could hunt down the lower-quality formats and re-subscribe to my favorite shows, but after all that work I’d be left with worse-looking shows (that were already suffering from compression artifacts even at the higher bitrates). The alternative is to spend $60-100 on a new set-top box, but I’d still be out the above convenience that I used to get with my Apple TV. If I bought a new Apple TV, I’d have to keep my computer on to be able to stream podcasts off it, or if I streamed directly off the web, I’d have to put up with buffering time and losing the convenience of subscriptions. Any way you look at it, it’s a downgrade. If it was just one show, I would probably just live with a lower-quality video, but over the years I’ve become a fan of many Revision3 shows. This is a big deal for me and many others. (If you had announced this change and the contest in advance through your existing feeds, you would have seen how many people out there were using first-gen Apple TVs to watch Revision 3 shows. Instead, the episodes just stopped coming and/or were suddenly in a format the box couldn’t play (presumably the 30 FPS format). I came across this page when I went to investigate why some of my podcasts wouldn’t play. Most people won’t be that ambitious. Just saying, you’re probably cutting off more people than you (or they) realize.)

    There doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason to what’s happening with my existing feeds, either. Here’s a sample of some of my subscriptions. ALL of them played fine on my first-generation Apple TV (yes, even the ones that were supposedly 30 FPS HD MP4 even before the changeover). Now, some feeds simply stopped updating, others update but the files won’t play on my Apple TV, and yet others continue to update and play just fine…

    AppJudgment (Quicktime HD)
    Old episodes played fine
    No new episodes
    (New episodes N/A)

    Destructoid (HD MP4 – 30fps)
    Old episodes played fine
    New episodes download
    New episodes don’t play

    Film Riot (Quicktime HD)
    Old episodes played fine
    No new episodes
    (New episodes N/A)

    Scam School (Quicktime HD)
    Old episodes played fine
    No new episodes
    (New episodes N/A)

    Tekzilla (Quicktime HD)
    Old episodes played fine
    New episodes download
    New episodes play fine

    Tom’s Top 5 (HD MP4 – 30fps)
    Old episodes played fine
    New episodes download
    New episodes don’t play

    The Totally Rad Show (Quicktime HD)
    Old episodes played fine
    New episodes download
    New episodes play fine

  • Werd

    I’m all for being on the bleeding edge, but it seems a bit premature to be abandoning millions of people (that a mere 5 months ago had the latest and greatest Apple TV). For what? Allowing the possibility of unestablished formats like WebM? Maybe in a year, but right now I’d look at the installed base of browsers/devices that can handle formats like WebM and compare it to the installed base of Apple TV.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_TV#First_generation

    Besides, I can’t imagine that continuing to encode the 24 FPS version is that much of a burden. It takes minutes to encode on consumer level hardware and (free) software. With professional tools, even less…

  • webstyler

    Hey rev3 team,

    first off: thanks for all your great shows.
    Its completely reasonable to cut down the number of encodes, but a few things are wired:
    1. A few of my iTunes feeds are now in there twice. (but doesn’t matter, i can fix that.)
    2. The Diggnation feed is not updating any more. (Quicktime HD)
    3. Please continue to provide album art in the feeds. (It just looks better, compared to random screenshots of the episode.)

  • Jim Louderback

    Werd, I definitely feel your pain on the Apple TV, and I know it’s hard to lose access to a higher bit rate encode for the older AppleTV. But in the end we had to make a decision that would make sense for us as a business, as well as balancing the needs of our viewers.

    The fact is, you can still watch our shows using the AppleTV, it’s just that you’ll be watching a somewhat less high quality feed. We haven’t cut off the device, we’ve just changed our support of it.

    I’d also save some of your ire for Apple – I still have no idea why they would release a product that only supports 24fps in HD – from my POV that’s a ridiculous thing, and shows that (at least up until a few months ago) still considered internet video a hobby.

    Let me look into all of the feeds you guys mentioned to see what is happening – as well as check the iPad and the HD feed..

    We’re not actually supporting WebM yet, nor anything else. We will have some good news here in the coming months, so stay tuned on that.

    I’ll also look into the episode vs. album art, not sure where that came from.

    Thanks again for supporting and watching us. Werd, try the streaming option and see how it goes… You might find it works pretty well.

    Alternately, if you have an xbox 360 and a windows PC, the plug-in we have there is a pretty fine solution too.

    And finally, we did announce this on our feeds – we sent a video message out to all the affected feeds before it happened, so we really did try to get the word out as widely as possible.

    jim

  • Werd

    Thank you for the response.

    I’m guessing that 24 FPS HD was a compromise for 2006-era hardware, and since films are 24p (and other HD content was pretty sparse at the time), I suppose it made sense…

    I find it ironic that I now have to watch HD Nation segments, where they regularly extol the virtues of 24p HD, in a non-HD format because the show itself is no longer available in 24p HD.

    Anyway, I did try streaming on my current Apple TV to see how well it works. The buffering is fairly painless, but even after adding the podcast to my favorites, there’s no way to tell when new episodes are released, and no way to track which ones I’ve already watched. A huge step backward, if you ask me.

    “And finally, we did announce this on our feeds – we sent a video message out to all the affected feeds before it happened, so we really did try to get the word out as widely as possible.”
    Really? Out of the ten shows I subscribe to, NONE of them had this video message. Like I said before, some of them just silently stopped getting new episodes, and some suddenly started delivering episodes my Apple TV couldn’t play. No warning or explanation until I went searching and found this page.

    So what alternative feeds exactly am I looking for? It was mentioned that it was a “tablet” feed, but I’m not seeing it in iTunes. There’s a “Quicktime Large” that’s 640×360, but that’s like phone resolution… Meanwhile the HD version of The Totally Rad Show continues to update and play fine. Did you forget to kill this one?

  • Werd

    Suddenly I have dozens and dozens of old episodes showing up as new (and therefore queued for download), a bunch of duplicates, and now my hard drive is full. ARGH.

  • BobVA

    Jim:

    First, thanks for your responses and explanation. I really enjoy several of the Rev3 shows and have consistently pointed them out to friends as representing the best content and production values in video podcasting. That said, I was really disappointed to find out tonight that I can no longer enjoy those shows in HD on my TV via an Apple TV.

    The “tablet” feed looks great on a tablet, I’m sure, but it looks pretty bad on a 46 inch TV, so it’s not a great alternative for that use case.

    If it was just a matter of the 99 bucks for a new Apple TV I’d gladly spend it to keep getting Revision3 content in HD. In fact I had pre-ordered the ATV2 when it was announced, but wound up canceling when I got a closer look at the specs. It would be a considerable downgrade for me and I suspect I’m not alone in that opinion. I don’t use Netflix, I need to keep photos on the ATV (so I can spring slide shows on hapless house guests) and the ability to download a complete rented iTunes movie prior to playback is critical to making rented movies watchable, given the wildly varying internet performance I get. The ATV2 can’t do any of that. Until the recent Rev3 decision to drop support for ATV there was literally NO upside to me getting the “improved” model. Now I’m faced with the choice of either getting Rev3 HD content, or keeping that functionality.

    Are you at liberty to discuss the problem caused by sticking with 24fps on the HD format? Is that not playable on the newer STB’s (sorry it that’s a stupid question)?

    Please reconsider at least keeping a 24fps feed for your more popular shows – or perhaps Tekzilla weekly, at least.

  • ford_prefect2nd

    @Jim Louderback

    “Hey Ford, why can’t you watch us on your phone? As for Chrome, they are talking native support in an HTML5 wrapper – you’ll still be able to watch us using our flash player via h.264. And btw, one of the reasons we’re cutting older less used formats is so we can add stuff like WebM down the road if it takes off!”

    Thank you for the reply, sorry for the delayed response. My phone does not support the H.264 format.
    As for the Flash player, it would be watchable, but Flash in Linux seems an afterthought for Adobe. It plays, but poorly.
    A WebM addition would be wonderful, I will look for it and look forward to it, I really do like a lot of your shows.
    Again, thank you for the response.

  • raugust

    Hey Jim – I have to agree with Werd here. While the new Apple TV can support the 720p30 format, it actually offers considerably reduced functionality compared to the original Apple TV I have. I’m using my Apple TV with an 84 inch projection system. Your Revision 3 shows at 720p24 looked great. The lower resolution “large” format on a screen that size is unwatchable. As Werd suggested, this wasn’t just a matter of resolution. For many of us, the original Apple TV offered a seamless and easy-to-access way to watch Revision 3 shows that just isn’t well supported on other boxes. In any case, I have no connection space for another box. I really feel this cutoff was premature. Although I was a fan of many of your shows including Tekzilla, Geekbrief TV, and HD Nation, I expect that I may become an ex-fan now. That 720p24 feed was really irreplaceable for me.

  • Werd

    Can I ask what the main rationale for cutting off the 24p feed is? It can’t be bandwidth, since you’re encouraging people to buy new hardware and use the 30p feed… It can’t be encoding time, since you have an office full of computers, and even my consumer-level hardware and software can encode h.264 relatively quickly…

    As a test, I exported an “Apple TV version” of one of the 30p Revision3 episodes. I’m just using QuickTime Player. It ran in the background, using less than 30% CPU, and took about 20 minutes for a 9:19 video. Surely you have better hardware/software, and I imagine the “work” involved is just a matter of keeping the 24p version in the queue for the batch encoder (Sorenson Squeeze or whatever you use)…

  • haku

    No more XviD?

    Well that sucks ass.

    It’s still one of the most compatable formats out there.

  • cwb

    Jim,

    Can someone PLEASE address the iTunes sync issue? It really makes no sense at all: if I subscribe to a Rev3 show from the iTunes Store on my Mac, the episodes won’t transfer to my iPad. It seems like this would be a huge issue, but when it comes up in the forums it just gets ignored. It it possible that I am the only person who watches the podcasts on my iPad? If this is simply not a priority, could someone just be candid about that?

    Thanks!

  • randallg

    Guys, your explanation for the ending of the 24p feed is lame if not non existent. A cynic might suggest you did so to boost the hardware sales of your partner…surely not?

    You may be aware that you actually have viewers outside the USA (yeah, there is a world outside your borders) and much of the world operates on something called the PAL TV system at 25 frames per second which is quite unbelievably actually acceptable to watch…and films play at 24 frames per second. Who would have thought anything less than 30 frames per second would work?

    Do you guys have such a high opinions of the ultra fast moving content you produce that you couldn’t bear to encode it at 24 frames per second. I bet 99% of viewers could not even tell the difference between 24 and 30 frames per second.

    So by doing this all you’ve proved to me is that you are in the pockets of hardware manufacturers, are happy to see a loyal group of your viewers angered, show how insular you are in terms of having blinkers to outside America and you have a warped view of the nature of the content you provide.

    Rant over.

    Consider me unsubscribed.

  • tehrealbitbucket

    Jim Louderback… why would I want a Roku box? I want my AppleTV. This really blows. For a communications company to just change formats on the fly w/o having the host(s) of the shows give a heads up is like an ostrich putting it’s head in the sand, hoping no one will notice.

    It think that it does a major disservice to your views and to your advertisers. I understand the the complex issues w/encoding formats. But to just change things is wrong. There should have been some notice and some concurrent feeds for a few-weeks or month so that ppl could get on board.

    I will try so sub to the “other” RSS feeds… but if there isn’t one that I can watch on my ATV, then I will unsub… and well…. REV3-TV…. well it will no longer be TV for me… it will be a thing of the past.

    GOOD LUCK GUYS…. BECAUSE YOU NEED IT PULLING PULLING STUNTS LIKE THAT.

  • davidbix

    I have to agree that dropping Xvid is a terrible idea given all of the DVD player support. If someone doesn’t have a newer STB, they can just burn to a DVD-RW or plug in a thumb drive on something like the DivX certified Philips players, which are pretty common.

  • mock

    i’m still getting lowest possible quality connection for revision3 shows on my roku xd|s. is there something i need to do to reset it for getting the hd streams? or are they still not hd for the roku boxes?

  • Werd

    Do these other devices handle the 24p videos? If so, are those extra 6 frames really worth it, at the expense of dropping support for devices less than 6 months old?

    I’ve tried the lower-quality feeds, and in some cases they’re passable. Barely. I really miss being able to read the smaller text, enjoy the effects, etc., though. (It’s fine for a phone — this is the target size for even the first-generation iPhone — but not a big screen HDTV.) Some shows lose a lot of value being downgraded from HD. If I can’t see the painstaking effects they’re doing on Film Riot, or I can’t see the details in games they’re showing on Destructoid, the shows become kinda pointless…

    Watching this blurriness makes me feel like I need glasses. I can put up with it for some shows, but for others, it’s just not worth it anymore and have unsubscribed.

    Guys, apparently Revision3 has stopped listening. They’re more concerned about their relationship with Roku. That’s fine. I think it’s a huge mistake, but they have every right. We, as viewers, have the right to switch to other podcasts that are still being published in HD that will play on our hardware. After suffering through the blurriness we’re stuck with at Rev3, it’s like a breath of fresh air. I discovered that CNET has some great HD podcasts, including some along the lines of Rev3 shows. Bonus: not being told about Netflix/GameFly/GoDaddy/Squarespace dozens of times a week. :-)

  • seamus2021

    Okay I think your viewers (including myself) just want a reason for dropping 24p. You never know, we might agree with you? To foster true community you’ve got to be honest, don’t you?

    A number of us just don’t rate the ATV2 offering, thus we are sticking with with what works for now. Of course we could all adapt ourselves to viewing your content by buying new kit or re-purposing our viewing, but I guess some changes of behaviour are not worth it.

    Obviously Revision3 content is important to us, but in marketing terms you are creating a “switching moment”, not something most businesses want. Come clean. The more you stay quiet on why you dropped the format the more people are going to lose faith in the integrity of Revision3. This is no longer about how many subscribers that are impacted it is now a trust issue.

  • Jim Louderback

    CWB, we’re looking into it. Not sure why that happens on iTunes.

    The honest reason we’re dropping 24p (along with xvid) is that it was too expensive to keep encoding, when other formats were available that supported almost everyone. We track which formats are used, and we also track devices that access our shows, and we saw a significant decline in xvid use – and a significant decline in original AppleTV access over the last year.

    Encoding video is expensive and takes a lot of time. We’re trying to build something here that will last and allow us to bring great shows to you guys for a long, long time. But that means we can’t continue to spend money on things where there is very little use – and where there are viable options.

    It had nothing to do with sales of competing devices – we don’t make a dime on Roku sales, nor on anything else (I was just trying to get a low cost option into people’s hands).

    IF you are looking for a device that supports downloads, look into the WD TV or the Popcorn – those have local storage and can help here. Or if you have an xbox, download our FREE plug in for Windows Media Center and use that.

    The point is, there are other options, the xvid and 24fps format usage was dwindling rapidly, and we were spending an inordinate amount of money creating those formats. It’s really just that simple.

    Oh, and as to why we went 30fps vs 24 – 30fps is 25% more frames, which means 25% better quality. But we also found that showing video game and other footage downsampled from 30 to 24 was terrible for EVERYONE. So that’s why 30fps.

    jim

  • Jim Louderback

    mock: as for your Roku, are you using WiFi to connect? What bandwidth are you getting from your ISP.

    If WiFi, you may be too far from your hub, or seeing interference. Here are some things to try out.

    Interference – download the free INSSIDER app and check out what other hubs are broadcasting around you, and what it looks like over by your ROKU

    Go to Speedtest.net on your computer and see what upstream bandwidth you are getting.

    Let me know.

    jim

  • seamus2021

    Jim thanks for taking the time to reply.

    At the end-of-the-day it’s your business and you’ve got to make these operational decisions. Unfortunately I’m in a similar position to you, but from from a different perspective: as watching the Revision3 content in the large format makes all your show look and sound rough, not just the video pieces and switching from a highly efficient viewing set-up for a couple of shows seems counter-intuitive as I like most customers just want the content to suit my needs without chopping and changing hardware for each broadcast.

    I think if you phased this format out in the 3rd or 4th quarter of this year people might be a little more forgiving as ATV hardware would have had a reasonable time since production had stopped and your communication strategy could have had a chance to work – I for one only found out when the feed would not synch. Ultimately this boils down to numbers – if ATV does not warrant the encoding time then so-be-it. Everybody knows it is impossible to please everyone….. Best wishes.

  • randallg

    Jim, the ’24 frames is awful’ trash might work with your American viewers but us outside the US who use 25 frames (or 24 frame film) won’t fall for that rubbish. Drop the 30 frames version and make it 24. So anyway, as you still can’t come up with a reasonable excuse you’ve proven yourself to be a douchebag.

  • BobVA

    > Oh, and as to why we went 30fps vs 24 –
    > 30fps is 25% more frames, which means 25%
    > better quality. But we also found that
    > showing video game and other footage
    > downsampled from 30 to 24 was terrible for EVERYONE.
    > So that’s why 30fps.

    Jim:
    It’s refreshing to see difficult decisions like this put in context, in public, instead of just being ignored or buried with a PR chaff cloud.

    I’m not any happier about losing the HD, but it’s a lot less annoying when I can understand the rationale. Thanks for the candor. You guys are doing something unique.

    Bob

  • Werd

    “The honest reason we’re dropping 24p is that it was too expensive to keep encoding”

    How was it expensive? You just keep one more preset in the batch, and it automatically generates all of the formats. The entire process can be automated, and each individual encode happens quickly (presumably at least in less than real time). If this is really the rationale for dropping the 24p feed, it seems to be a pretty weak excuse. I’ve been doing video work for well over a decade. Today’s tools are cheap, easy, and fast. Letting an encoder run (in the background, even) isn’t “expensive” in any sense.

  • seamus2021

    I guess what it boils down to is that Revision3 makes a number of shows, thus each format they need to encode adds up in the grand scheme of things. It is likely there has been a push for some cuts to enhance the business for sale, cashflow, growth or all three. The reality is these sort of cuts very rarely provide anything tangible to the bottom-line as processor speed enhancements and storage costs have tended to fall over time in real terms.

    Perhaps this department has got into the political game of communicating up-the-line to their senior management that they’ve made cuts, thus they are in compliance with what they were asked to do. In my experience most departments want to make cuts that actually don’t really change things. It is human nature for most of us.

    Obviously this is all purely speculation on my part and in reality this sort of thing happens all the time – it just so happens we are the losers in this change.

    If anything has truly failed in this instance is the communication strategy to ready us viewers for the format change. I would imagine if we saw a pie-chart with .00001% ATV users we might be inclined to make the same operational decision, however these numbers have not been shared and the reasons have not that convincing. Let’s face it, if there’s so few of us using this platform anything we say here is futile. The decision has been made.

    In the most part I think they do a great job, so I wish Revision3 well.

  • mock

    jim, for speedtest, i ssh-ed into my home linux box and ran wget to http://www.kernel.org on the latest stable and got an average of 800+KB/s on a download. i’m using wifi-n to connect to my cable modem.

    however, i can get hd from netflix, amazon, and vimeo on the roku. i was getting hd from rev3 on this roku box before the notice appeared about the change in the formats showed up.

    i’ll have to try the interference roku app when i get home. but i hope this helps in the meantime.

  • jerkbot

    Any update on the iPad syncing the 30fps 720p feeds?

  • Werd

    “But we also found that showing video game and other footage downsampled from 30 to 24 was terrible for EVERYONE.”

    Terrible? I can’t say I’ve ever even noticed, much less been bothered by it. (The compression artifacts are *far* more distracting.)

    Seriously, though, every HD movie and TV show in the iTunes Store is 24p — and people *pay* for these.

  • Werd

    Sorry for being so cynical, but I can see it now…

    I buy a new Apple TV that can handle the 30p videos (and leave my computer running to stream them to the box). A few months from now, Revision3 announces that they’re moving to 1080p, and therefore dropping support for the Apple TV again. After all, 2 of the 3 Roku boxes can already handle 1080p…

  • http://cwb.us/ cwb

    No really.

    If Revision3 just does not see the iPad as important to their distribution strategy, could someone just say so so I don’t have to keep checking back to see if/when this will ever get fixed?

  • Jim Louderback

    Werd, I invite you to come in and do our encoding every day. you’ll see that it’s not “easy” or “cheap”. I sign the bills. I wake up at midnight to make sure everything went up – and I call our tech folks when our encoder crashes at 4am. If it were easy, we’d still do it.

    BTW, I’m deep into the encoding, the cost and the process, so the decision started and ended with me. No departments trying to justify anything. Just me trying to make things faster and easier and to get our shows out reliably.

    It’s no secret we’ve had some delivery problems – particularly at the end of last year. I think we’re through those problems, but it meant cutting back on what we did, and streamlining the process. That’s why I did, and that’s why I made the decisions I did. I’m sorry for those of you that are not happy, and I wish I had a better solution.

    And the iPad is VERY important. We’re going to build something really cool for it. But that, again, won’t happen this week.

    Thanks again for writing, and for caring about our shows. I wish I had a better answer for those of you that can’t get the formats you want.

    jim

  • Werd

    Jim,

    How do you compare the popularity of the various methods of watching Rev3 shows (download versus progressive download/streaming)? The reason I ask is that I imagine the results are skewed just by the nature of the formats. For example, when I resume a show on my Apple TV, the show just picks up right where it left off (from the file on the hard drive). With progressive downloads (which are used for devices that don’t have storage/syncing), the video is downloaded again, presumably being counted as another view/download.

    Meanwhile, I’ve been subscribed to some of the 30fps feeds since they came out. (Apparently those feeds must not have been getting the true 30fps content, though, as they played fine on my AppleTV.) So, in effect, my subscriptions were counting as “votes against” the Apple TV-compatible feeds. I imagine I wasn’t alone in seeking out the highest-quality feeds, so could have been a significant factor…

  • Werd

    Jim,

    I was actually going to ask if the community (or a Rev3 sponsor) would sponsor the 24p encodes, would you be willing to keep those feeds alive? I’d be willing to babysit some encoding if it would help…

  • Xxx69

    Xvid Xvid Xvid why why why!!!!!! “replacing those XVID formats with equivalent MP4 formats” what play supports MP4 if u on XVID…. :-( ((((((((

  • cbl

    Ever since the format change, my Tivo Premiere XL has only been downloading the “tablet” format ( i.e. Lodef) of certain programs like Diggnation, HD Nation and Tekzilla… Has someone from Revsion3 spoken to Tivo to get this addressed?

    Thanks.

  • Werd

    Hello?

  • http://profiles.google.com/mockgeek mark m

    is anyone else here having problem with images

  • http://twitter.com/mock mock

    is anyone else having problems with their roku box getting the lowest possible quality stream? i’ve removed the revision3 channel and readded it, i’ve gotten all the updates for my roku (xd|s), i’ve even cycled the power on it to see if i can get back the HD streams, yet i still get lowest. everything else i watch in HD works just fine: amazon, netflix, vimeo–they all run with no lag, no recaching, no switching to a lower stream.

  • Werd

     Hello?

  • Werd

    You’ve ignored my points about the potential flaws in your measurement of which formats “have waned in popularity.” You’ve ignored my points about quality. You’ve even ignored my offer to help with the encoding. If it wasn’t before, it’s becoming pretty clear where your priorities lie. And no, I’m not buying the “25% better quality” claim…• Destructoid (one of the few shows that fit the rationalization that video game footage being downsampled to 24fps was “terrible”) was, up until recently, being distributed as 24p (even in the supposedly “30fps” feed).
    • HD Nation / Tekzilla regularly proclaim the virtues of 24p.
    • At least two of my favorite shows (The Totally Rad Show and Film Riot) are actually *shot* in 24p (so you’re really just adding interpolated frames that were never in the source material, creating larger file sizes, and reducing compatibility).

    At least let the shows that are shot in 24p remain in their native format. Besides cutting off a large chunk of your audience, upconverting them to 30p doesn’t gain anything, and only *increases* encoding time (as well as download time and bandwidth usage). Video/film purists would argue that converting to 30p actually makes for *worse* quality, due to the interpolated frames and generation loss — just ask any of your hosts of HD Nation, Tekzilla, Film Riot, TRS, etc. Converting *every* show to 30fps for the sake of the couple video game podcasts you produce is just silly.Please, listen to your staff. Listen to your fans. (I doubt there were too many of us clamoring for upconverted video so that we could enjoy decreased compatibility and longer downloads.)

  • http://militarycarloans.net/ Karon Bronson

    But older AppleTV customers will either need to move to our
    lower-resolution MP4 format (designated as our “Tablet” feed), or
    upgrade to a more modern video settop box.

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