View Full Version : Second Tier characters or Zombies
jonathand-gordon
10-18-2007, 05:15 PM
What is more annoying to you, Zombies (Marvel Zombies 2, Issue 1 was horrible.) or the constant stream of B-Level and C-level characters being brought back half as a joke and half as a self congradulatory "look at me I am so good of a writer I can make Mysterio a character people care about all while making obvious jokes about the fishbowl on his head."
I probably tipped my hand , but I am less annoyed by the zombie thing because A. it Gave us "Walking Dead" and B. Because these books are easy to spot and can be avoided.
I like most people got all Fanboy Giddy when I saw Cloak and Dagger pop up in Runaways. Same with the first time Bendis Made Electro matter in the start of New Avengers. But now across the board it is becoming overkill. Half of these characters were created specifically to be throw away heros and villains. There is nothing deeper to them. So my issue is, If your going to sit there a work out a back story to a guy nobody even knew existed until the marvel encyclopedia came out, why not just create a new character with that same back story. It just promotes the club aspect that keeps new readers out. You shouldn't have to cpend half of your wednesday nights searching your DC and Marvel encyclopedias so a plot point makes sense.
This is in part why I am reading more image books and the Ex Machina/ Umbrella Academy's of comics because the story is just the story. Its not about writing a story in a way that allows you to show off how cool you are cause you remember all the mebers of 1988 lineup of west coast avengers villains.
These things were so awesome as surprise pop ups at first. I wish they would make them more special, but like the zombie thing , its every issue and now an old character I loved as a kid makes a cameo and I'm Thinking " obligatory forgotten B-list cameo, someone won a bet that they could fit him in the issue."
paper
10-18-2007, 05:38 PM
The latter doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm more of a character guy than a story guy (not that story isn't crucial).
Zombies on the other hand? So 2004.
EDIT: I meant "former" not "latter"
jonathand-gordon
10-18-2007, 05:41 PM
The latter doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm more of a character guy than a story guy (not that story isn't crucial).
Zombies on the other hand? So 2004.
So Christmas everyday doesn't bother you? My issue wasn't doing it , its the fact its in every DC issue and every marvel issue since 2003
paper
10-18-2007, 05:50 PM
Haha. It's funny. I had the same conversation the other day (not about third tier characters, but xmas every day). Of course it would be dope to have Christmas every day! It's ****ing Christmas!
No, I can see where you're frustrated and tired of it, but I guess I just haven't seen it as being gratuitous in the books I read. I like the positive examples you listed Cloak and Dagger, Electro, etc.
Maybe you should give some negative examples? Maybe it's a case by case sort of thing?
labor_days
10-18-2007, 06:30 PM
God, I hate zombies. Don't find them interesting, cool or intriguing at all. Only the threat they provide in something like the TWD is interesting to me.
On the other hand, I love forgotten characters showing up from time to time. As both a reminder and expansion of the fictional continuity of the universe.
If it weren't for C and B level characters such as Renee Montoya, The Question, Liberty Belle or Spy Smasher; I wouldn't love the DCU half as much as I do now.
esophagus
10-18-2007, 06:52 PM
I don't include Walking Dead in my opinion of zombies right now, because it's fresh, and great. It's well done,and it's out of the big twos reach. Past that, I'm a little annoyed. I don't hate the zombies, there's defintiely potential there, but it's defintiely more annoying than B list characters popping up.
I have to disagree with Paper. I think story and character need to be sort of mashed together for it to work. A lot of these characters really aren't interesting (See: Metal Men). They made good characters in their era, but the stories are obviously dated. Them popping up brings more character to them, giving them a more modern, realistic feel. But without a good story that would mean absolutely nothing. If we saw a slightly crazy, lovable genius Doc Magnus in the same stories he used to have, I wouldn't love it. But when the stories being produced are as great as they are now (52, Villains United, etc.) then it really helps.
jonathand-gordon
10-18-2007, 07:31 PM
Haha. It's funny. I had the same conversation the other day (not about third tier characters, but xmas every day). Of course it would be dope to have Christmas every day! It's ****ing Christmas!
No, I can see where you're frustrated and tired of it, but I guess I just haven't seen it as being gratuitous in the books I read. I like the positive examples you listed Cloak and Dagger, Electro, etc.
Maybe you should give some negative examples? Maybe it's a case by case sort of thing?
Thats just thing thing, its not that it is ever really done poorly. Bendis, Vaughn, Johns all do it well. It's just the fact that they don't stop doing
it. It is no longer something special. I have to read their books with the ecyclopedias next to me, so I can figure out who half the characters are. Some of these are great nostalgia. Other times the characters just felt lame first time around.
mikegraham6
10-18-2007, 07:32 PM
.....i thought Marvel Zombies 2 wasn't bad, it's a fun book. The Marvel Zombie thing works when Kirkman writes it. I am sick of all the other minis and variant covers though
paper
10-18-2007, 07:40 PM
Thats just the thing, its not that it is ever really done poorly. Bendis, Vaughn, Johns all do it well. It's just the fact that they don't stop doing
it.
I don't think I can help you.
Something done well...constantly? Unacceptable! ;)
I'm so tired of the zombie thing. I've begun skipping issues of Marvel stuff that have zombies in them. I just don't care anymore.
As for The Walking Dead, it's not about the zombies. It's about how the people react and interact within the chaos created by the zombies. The zombies could just as easily be werewolves, vampires, or really angry soccer moms.
esophagus
10-18-2007, 09:19 PM
As for The Walking Dead, it's not about the zombies. It's about how the people react and interact within the chaos created by the zombies. The zombies could just as easily be werewolves, vampires, or really angry soccer moms.That's the reason I didn't really include it.
In fact, I wouldn't really include Marvel Zombies in my hatred of the zombie thing right now. It's a really interesting take. The side that has never been told. The side of the zombies.
It's really just the mass amount of covers and zombie-aimmed marketting we've seen lately. I haven't seen a whole lot of zombies I hate lately outside of that side of things.
jaflanagan
10-18-2007, 10:31 PM
This just kills me idea for a revamp of an old, forgotten Marvel character, the Zomboid. I was really going to get into him and see what makes him tick. Other than a single minded desire for human flesh I mean. There's a lot of depth there.
And I thought it was a sure thing. Back the drawing board.
I've got another idea, where Thor gets mad at the entire Marvel universe, and they all fight for like 14-15 issues. But at the end, they all become friends again.
The problem is that it's gone from device to schtick.
labor_days
10-18-2007, 10:35 PM
The problem is that it's gone from device to schtick.
Mods, lock thread.
Fred has nailed the issue to the wall, so to speak.
humphrey-lee
10-19-2007, 04:03 AM
Sometimes the B and C level characters ARE the story though...
B and C listers are so much more interesting than A-listers anyways...
And Walking Dead is the only reason I don't mind the zombies. Besides that, eh, let it die the undeath it deserves (just like puns like that one should too...)
iSteve
10-19-2007, 01:27 PM
I love B and C level characters. Sometimes writers can do so much more with these characters than A listers.
As for zombies, I don't mind them if they are background to the main story itself - but can't stand them with they are the story.
patio
10-19-2007, 03:24 PM
B- and C- characters that are more fully fleshed-out = Good
Zombie characters with flesh falling off their faces = Double + Good
Whenever I read a revamped minor character, it has never depended on having knowledge of the character's history other than what's included in the story. Put down the encyclopedia and just pretend the character never existed.
As to why not make up an original character with the same abilities - why not use what's been done? I don't see the negative. The new Spider-man animated show is doing this to a near ridiculous extent. Even background characters in Peter's school are taken from the early comics.
smaktakula
10-19-2007, 06:26 PM
I like zombies and B-Listers.
Zombies, when used well, are nothing more than a backdrop or a setting. The real drama in these stories is in the interraction between humans. Check out any of the great zombie films (or comics), and you'll see that the real source of conflict is between humans.
That's what made Marvel Zombies so disappointing. Yeah, it was cool to see some of my favorite heroes all zombified (although that novelty has since worn off), but I didn't get to see any of the fall of civilization, the "takeover," which is really what interests me.
The Walking Dead has all the qualities I admire in a good work of fiction, and it's got zombies, how can you lose?
I also love B and C Listers. What's even better is when you get a whole bunch of 'em and call 'em a team, like the Defenders or Shadowpact.
esophagus
10-19-2007, 06:32 PM
As to why not make up an original character with the same abilities - why not use what's been done? I don't see the negative. The new Spider-man animated show is doing this to a near ridiculous extent. Even background characters in Peter's school are taken from the early comics.Agreed. My comic encyclopedias (a fanboys dream) have thouuuusands of characters, only a small portion of which are being used today. So, you might as well go ahead and take these concepts, and just build them up until they're relatable, and usable.
patio
10-19-2007, 10:30 PM
Agreed. My comic encyclopedias (a fanboys dream) have thouuuusands of characters, only a small portion of which are being used today. So, you might as well go ahead and take these concepts, and just build them up until they're relatable, and usable.
I do think that both publishers could do a better job of explaining who some of the backdrops are. For the Injustice League Unlimited and the Hood's mafia, there were lots of background lurkers that i had barely an inkling of who they were. It's lots of fun when I do recognize someone, but a little frustrating when I can't and it's never explained. Why not a little key on the letter or editor's page in the back?
paper
10-19-2007, 11:37 PM
Why do you have to know?
patio
10-20-2007, 12:03 AM
Why do you have to know?
Because it's there.
Because it's there.
Think of the unexplained stuff as a plus.
If I take a picture of a girl picking flowers in a forest, the viewer doesn't need to know the name and classification of every flower. But if I'm telling the story of how the girl decided to make and eat a salad from what she finds in the forest, it's up to me to let you know that one of those plants is poisonous and whether or not the girl realizes it.
In a room full of villains, the writer will let you know who is important and what details of his life you need to know. Usually you'll pick it up as the story progresses.
The plus for obsessive comic readers is that they can look up the villains, compare notes with others online, and get a rush from "completing the set" of the villains pictured. Believe me, you can enjoy any of the story arcs of Top Ten without identifying any of the background characters. But it makes a great game of "Where's Waldo" once you've finished the story.
jonathand-gordon
10-20-2007, 03:35 AM
Think of the unexplained stuff as a plus.
If I take a picture of a girl picking flowers in a forest, the viewer doesn't need to know the name and classification of every flower. But if I'm telling the story of how the girl decided to make and eat a salad from what she finds in the forest, it's up to me to let you know that one of those plants is poisonous and whether or not the girl realizes it.
In a room full of villains, the writer will let you know who is important and what details of his life you need to know. Usually you'll pick it up as the story progresses.
The plus for obsessive comic readers is that they can look up the villains, compare notes with others online, and get a rush from "completing the set" of the villains pictured. Believe me, you can enjoy any of the story arcs of Top Ten without identifying any of the background characters. But it makes a great game of "Where's Waldo" once you've finished the story.
Its funny that someone mentioned the hoods posse. cause thats what finally pushed me over the edge on the b level callbacks. I was one of a lot of people who was sitting there thinking , Why the hell is the red skull sitting there listening to the hood. Red skull would never do that. I would chalk this up to not knowing the history except lots of more knowledgeable readers at my LCS said the same thing. It was only after looking it up that it was determined he was one of the blood brothers.
It does become a problem if you bring back obscure characters who look like non obscure characters and casual to non expert readers will easilly assume is the non obscure character. All it would have taken is a quick joke written
where another of the villains says something along the lines of "why is the red Skull here ?" Then they could have mentioned he wasn't the red skull and moved on. There is no problem bringing back the characters , but make it mean something and I agree don't just put them in there to put them in there, explain why they need to be there, and who they are.
Actually that quick joke diverts attention from the scene since it's only there to explain something that shouldn't be explained.
I'd say it was either a mistake for the artist or writer to include a confusing figure
or you're thinking way too much. ;)
paper
10-20-2007, 12:05 PM
I'm with Tad on this one.
Besides, a little ambiguity is fun. I think the information age has given people the weird assumption that we all need to know everything there is to know about something. A little background info is cool, but trust the writer and artist to tell you only as much as you need to know to enjoy the story. You ever have a friend who loves to ramble on in their stories and go off on every possible tangent? It's annoying. You just want them to tell the linear story, with brief pauses to convey an interesting anecdote that strengthens the story. You don't need to know the full, multi-branching wiki page that is their associated knowledge of the subject.
I want a story. I don't want a bibliography, an appendix, footnotes, alternate angles. Not in my comics anyway.
patio
10-20-2007, 01:11 PM
I'm with Tad on this one.
Besides, a little ambiguity is fun. I think the information age has given people the weird assumption that we all need to know everything there is to know about something. A little background info is cool, but trust the writer and artist to tell you only as much as you need to know to enjoy the story. You ever have a friend who loves to ramble on in their stories and go off on every possible tangent? It's annoying. You just want them to tell the linear story, with brief pauses to convey an interesting anecdote that strengthens the story. You don't need to know the full, multi-branching wiki page that is their associated knowledge of the subject.
I want a story. I don't want a bibliography, an appendix, footnotes, alternate angles. Not in my comics anyway.
Yeah, I agree that what's most important is the well-told story, and Bendis is certainly providing that. But in plenty of cases comics used to provide that and then would go the extra step of providing that extra information, in an editor's box or on a back page. Now comics are a lot more streamlined in their approach and visually that makes for a much cleaner look. But I'd still miss some of that extra backstory. Like a DVD extra, just a little something to go back and enjoy afterwqards.