Batman's Love Life (Or Lack Thereof)

[iSteve]

Not too many years ago, there actually was a time when Batman had romantic interests in women - many women (of course, not all at the same time). Now, it seems rare indeed for the Bat to date or risk his heart. What's up with that? In other words, is there any room in the Dark Knight's soul for the love of a good woman?

http://www.comicspriceguide.com/include/resize.asp?path=D:\users\cpg\comicspriceguide.com\ www\images\covers\481\103542.jpg&width=225

[esophagus]

Batman always gets screwed over with loving anyone. Whether it's his parents, Jason Todd, or Selina Kyle. He tends to give up on these things. I thought the Batman/Catwoman thing was always a great relationship. Definitely should be a long term thing. Such a fun struggle. They played with it a bit on The Batman once, that I saw, and I loved it.

[conorkilpatrick]

Not too many years ago, there actually was a time when Batman had romantic interests in women - many women (of course, not all at the same time). Now, it seems rare indeed for the Bat to date or risk his heart. What's up with that? In other words, is there any room in the Dark Knight's soul for the love of a good woman?

http://www.comicspriceguide.com/include/resize.asp?path=D:\users\cpg\comicspriceguide.com\ www\images\covers\481\103542.jpg&width=225

Grant Morrison tried to bring back swinging Batman with his run...

I dunno, I think it depends on which Batman you like. It makes some sense to me that he is still 8 years old, emotionally, so relationships would be quite difficult to maintain.

[kwok_talk]

Tim should sign Bruce up for eHarmony next time he's just sitting in the Batcave.

[iSteve]

Batman always gets screwed over with loving anyone. Whether it's his parents, Jason Todd, or Selina Kyle. He tends to give up on these things. I thought the Batman/Catwoman thing was always a great relationship. Definitely should be a long term thing. Such a fun struggle. They played with it a bit on The Batman once, that I saw, and I loved it.

Although there have been several "great loves of his life," in my opinion it will always be Selina Kyle. They are great together. Sizzle!

[esophagus]

Tim should sign Bruce up for eHarmony next time he's just sitting in the Batcave.Name: Confidential
Age: 30-50, depending on the writer
Occupation: I'd rather not talk about it
Siblings: SHUT UP!
Children: Sort of, I guess. One dead, one undead, one fully grown, one teen
Favorite Activities: Fighting crime, and instilling fear on the hoodlums of Gotham. I've said too much.

[kahunablair]

Tim should sign Bruce up for eHarmony next time he's just sitting in the Batcave.

Now I have a picture of Batman talking about how he wants to punish all evil-doers while he's in front of a white screen. Then suddenly a red "REJECTED BY eHARMONY" stamp comes down on the screen.

[fred]

It makes some sense to me that he is still 8 years old, emotionally, so relationships would be quite difficult to maintain.

So am I. Batman should date me.

[esophagus]

Just look him up on eHarmony.

[patio]

For 7 years I've been sitting on a story about Batman finding love with a non-super-hero/villain, but I don't know if there's really a place for it in the DCU right now.

It would be nice to see him find someone who was really his match intellectually, but not just some madwoman or semi-criminal like Talia or Selina.

[fred]

Just look him up on eHarmony.

You realize that you're just going to push me into wasting the money to put myself on eharmony as Batman right?

[esophagus]

For 7 years I've been sitting on a story about Batman finding love with a non-super-hero/villain, but I don't know if there's really a place for it in the DCU right now.

It would be nice to see him find someone who was really his match intellectually, but not just some madwoman or semi-criminal like Talia or Selina.
I hate hate hate hate the Bruce/Talia thing, but when done properly Selina can be Bruce's intellectual match, and a perfect girl for him.

Fred, do it. If you do, I promise to make an account for Ralph Dibny.

[conorkilpatrick]

I hate hate hate hate the Bruce/Talia thing, but when done properly Selina can be Bruce's intellectual match, and a perfect girl for him.

Bruce/Talia is the best one. Much better than Bruce/Selina.

[fred]

I hate hate hate hate the Bruce/Talia thing, but when done properly Selina can be Bruce's intellectual match, and a perfect girl for him.

Fred, do it. If you do, I promise to make an account for Ralph Dibny.

Yeah, and then we can start a facebook group for them.

You see, of course, that you shouldn't be encouraging me. I've got a schtick now.

For me -
birth of schtick == death of sensible behavior

[kahunablair]

Bruce/Talia is the best one. Much better than Bruce/Selina.
I agree with you here Conor.
I'm not a big Batman guy, but whenever I read them and Talia is involved I definitely preferred it more.

[sullivan85]

If movie-Batman has taught us anything, it's that Bruce can't wait to spill his secret identity on the second date. I think "Batman and Robin" was the only film where he didn't.

[esophagus]

Bruce/Talia is the best one. Much better than Bruce/Selina.It always seemed so tacky to me. Her being so attached, and him being so distant. Her father getting between them.

[mikegraham6]

I'm with Conor on this one, the whole Son of the Bat arc that Morrison did really reinvigorated that relationship for me. I can't wait to see where he takes it with the Ressurection of Ra's Al Ghul storyline coming up (does that start this week?)

[superfriend82]

I would like for The Bats to have love life.

[patio]

How about a poll?

Do you think Batman should have a love interest?

1) Yes, he should settle down, get married, and have kids already.

2) Yes, he should have a regular girlfriend or two.

3) The swinging bachelor thing is fine, but nothing should tie him down.

4) Forget girls, all I want to see is fists, blood, and men in tights.

(ok, that last one may have come out bad...)

[paper]

The creepiest one ever was Batman Beyond old Bruce (revitalized to youth by Lazarus pit, and Ras (in the body of revitalized Talia).

Ew, ew, ew.

[masherscf]

Super heroes should not get laid.

It's what makes them so bad-ass...

[sullivan85]

Most comics subscribe to the school of thought that once two characters become a couple, they become boring.

You'd think that when he's putting on his playboy routine, he's get laid sometimes. He can't be sending ALL those women away after the lavish parties! He end up having some bizarre reputation as a unich!

[fred]

skeet unich?

anyway, I was watching the last ep of Pushing Daises last night and I noticed something that comics has trained me to do. The hand holding thing - I was totally terrified that it would go in a bad way for our favorite couple.

I put this here, rather than in the PD thread because I find it relates to some of the things that people are saying here about entertainment relationships.

[jbeck]

Back during the classic Englehart /Austin run, Bruce had a great relationship with Silver St. Cloud, a non super type who was smart enough to figure out he was Batman. The relationship had a begining, middle, and end that went along with the story arc, adding drama to the run and ending when the run ended. It was a great way for a Batman romantic relationship to go. I also liked him with Sasha and the fact that Sasha has a non bat related place in the DCU now.

[six-gun]

Bruce/Talia is the best one. Much better than Bruce/Selina.

agreed, Catwoman is a bit too obvious

[esophagus]

agreed, Catwoman is a bit too obviousI think there's a simplistic brilliance too it that Talia lacks, and she's an equally obvious choice. One of Batman's biggest foes has a beautiful daughter, who would do anything for daddy. Well, what if Batman fell in love with her? Blech. Don't get me wrong, it's been done well. I loved Batman & Son, and a lot of things to come out of the relationship, I just think it was a lame choice to begin with.

Batman and Catwoman both have led traumatic lives. One rises above it and tries to save the world, the other tries to save themselves, and believes the world should be left to fend for itself. There is a common bond there, and they're both terribly heroic people, Selina just doesn't always know it. I always thought it was much more intricate, and fun, than Talia's endless "Bruce, I love you" "I dont love you" banter.

[diabhol]

Most comics subscribe to the school of thought that once two characters become a couple, they become boring.


Which is a school of thought I completely reject. There might be some validity to it for the whole "I love you/I hate you" kind of bullshit relationship that was immortalized on 'Moonlighting', but when when actual adults are involved that are written by decent writers, couplehood is NOT boring.

[diabhol]

How about a poll?

Do you think Batman should have a love interest?

4) Forget girls, all I want to see is fists, blood, and men in tights.

(ok, that last one may have come out bad...)

Does this include the possibility of him dating Dick Grayson? :)

[mikegraham6]

Batman doesn't need a girlfriend, that's why he has Robin ;)

[sullivan85]

Which is a school of thought I completely reject. There might be some validity to it for the whole "I love you/I hate you" kind of bullshit relationship that was immortalized on 'Moonlighting', but when when actual adults are involved that are written by decent writers, couplehood is NOT boring.


I agree sir. Just saying that that seems to be what a lot of TV shows and comics adhere to.

[conorkilpatrick]

Which is a school of thought I completely reject. There might be some validity to it for the whole "I love you/I hate you" kind of bullshit relationship that was immortalized on 'Moonlighting', but when when actual adults are involved that are written by decent writers, couplehood is NOT boring.

Years and years and decades and decades of serialized fiction would disagree.

[sullivan85]

Didn't Chris Rock say that the only relationships that are exciting are the bad ones?

This might be off point, but because Batman's abilities and his war on crime is something he choose, not something thrust on him (other than the parents getting murdered), I think he's more dedicated than other heroes. I can't see the character really wanting a relationship (or having time for one). They touched on this in Wagner's Dark Moon Rising series the other year.

[diabhol]

Years and years and decades and decades of serialized fiction would disagree.

Which means nothing to me. Being able to write one kind of story does not mean you can write another. Just because someone does action well doesn't mean they can do relationships well. And considering most comic relationships have been written by men who have zero understanding of women, I'm not surprised there haven't been a lot of good couples in the history of serialized fiction.

It's all about where you put the emphasis in the story. Emphasize the chase and that's all the relationship is about; there can't be anything beyond it. However, if you actually emphasize why the characters are interested in each other, then you have the foundation for an interesting relationship.

[drwally]

If movie-Batman has taught us anything, it's that Bruce can't wait to spill his secret identity on the second date. I think "Batman and Robin" was the only film where he didn't.

Actually, there was that scene in Batman 3 (Batman Forever) with Val Kilmer (Bruce) and Chris O'Donnell (Dick) where Bruce said on the stairs to Dick: "Dick, please stay, don't run away again...you can ride my motorcycles, any one you want..." And the whole tone of the scene, the look in Kilmer's eyes...When I saw that scene I was like, "WOAH, crossing a line here..."

I have always found the 60s Batman "gay gags" to be cliche and really not warranted by Adam West and company, but that scene with Val Kilmer and Chris O'Donnell was WAAAAY homoerotic in tone. And funny too, because the studio went to such great lengths to deny any homoerotic undertones in the Batman and Robin relationship when that movie came out.

I may be bent, but I like my Batman straight.

Here is an interesting way too look at Batman's lovelife problem - he is like a policeman, a soldier, and a spy rolled into one, with his day job being the running of a huge conglomerate. Statistically, extremely dedicated policeman, spys, soldiers and businessmen tend to have extreme love life problems -- These types of relatioships endure huge amounts of stress, and at the very least both partners have to manage extreme pressures many couples do not. Batman is certainly not the type to put partner before "work," hence the relationship problem. The exception might be the rich businessman, but I think many of us can agree that women who marry for money are not Bruce's type at all.

The one line I really liked (can't remember the story exactly) was when Batman is thinking to himself and actually thinks, "People think I am obcesseed with my mission. They're wrong, I can stop whenever I want to...I choose not to..." Classic echo of someone addicted to something, also not good for love relatioships...

I bet Dr. Joyce Brothers would also have something to say about the parents's death and "fear of gettting too close for fear of losing another loved one again...." He could be one Dead Robin away from shutting out the world completely. I really like the Father/Son dynamic developing between Bruce and Tim - Many military or police families tend to produce children that become very dedicated to following their father in the same career, even if there are some "distance" issues.

Now compare to Lois and Clark - Superman's powers really kind of ease many of the pressures Bruce faces, no? Bruce can't be everywhere at once, save the world, AND be in time for a nice family dinner with the wife, can he?

[conorkilpatrick]

And considering most comic relationships have been written by men who have zero understanding of women, I'm not surprised there haven't been a lot of good couples in the history of serialized fiction.

Wow, did you mean to insult comic book writers that harshly?

(I wasn't just talking about comics, by the way)

[drwally]

Yeah, don't want to get too harsh on the writers of comics...even if they are not always representitive of the population at large re:gender and race, many are pretty smart people.

But, there have been couples in fiction that have been very successful. The Thin Man films (which were heavliy serialized) were very successful in their day, are still considered classics, and are reportedly the inspiration for Ralph and Sue Dibny. Also, Spencer Tracy and Kate Hepburn made quite a few good movies, playing different roles but really playing the same characters in different variations of the same basic themes -they argued lots in those films, but the relationship itself was never really in jeopardy.

I think the "will they get together, then they do, then they break up" dynamic is pretty dominant now, but putting the focus there is not essential, is it? I think the Green Arrow/Black Canary series is going to be the test...

[conorkilpatrick]

But, there have been couples in fiction that have been very successful. The Thin Man films (which were heavliy serialized) were very successful in their day, are still considered classics, and are reportedly the inspiration for Ralph and Sue Dibny. Also, Spencer Tracy and Kate Hepburn made quite a few good movies, playing different roles but really playing the same characters in different variations of the same basic themes -they argued lots in those films, but the relationship itself was never really in jeopardy.

Of course there are, which is why I said "serialized fiction" and not "fiction". They are different storytelling beasts entirely.

[drwally]

Of course there are, which is why I said "serialized fiction" and not "fiction". They are different storytelling beasts entirely.

You are very right to stress the word "serialized," but the Thin Man (in books and films) and Spencer and Tracy films were indeed "serialized" fiction. Everybody understood that Spencer and Tracy, though put in different situations in different films, were actually playing the same people. The Thin Man couple were always happily married from adventure to adventure, as were Ralph and Sue Dibney for years and years.

Here is the real distinction: Does the weight of the unfolding story and character development rest entirely on whether or not the couple falls in or out of love? Or gets together, or breaks up? I would say that even Matt Murdock and Milla, though separated now, are as devoted to each other as they have ever been. The couple that endures adversity and stays together, does that count?

Sure, many stories have become boring once the couple gets together and establish a happy relationship, but isn't that because the story rests too much on whether or not they split up or get together, and the other stuff going on in their lives is not interesting? In that way, a story is not boring because of the relationship in the house, but boring because not much of interest is going on outside the house.

On this issue (does a happy relationship mean a boring story), I, like Batman, am completely independent/unaffiliated and waiting to see how the Green Arrow/Black Canary series works. Until then, I am on the fence.

Independent, on the fence. Just like Batman (and single too).:o

[conorkilpatrick]

You are very right to stress the word "serialized," but the Thin Man (in books and films) and Spencer and Tracy films were indeed "serialized" fiction. Everybody understood that Spencer and Tracy, though put in different situations in different films, were actually playing the same people. The Thin Man couple were always happily married from adventure to adventure, as were Ralph and Sue Dibney for years and years.

Serialized films are not quite the same. Maintaining characters that appear once every so often is not a problem, its when you're dealing with the same character every month (comics) or every week (TV) is when you run into the problem of boredom.

Ralph and Sue worked becaue they weren't series regulars. Prior to Identity Crisis, I've haven't read a book that Ralph appeared in regularly since the early 1990s.

Of course, there are always exceptions to prove the rule (i.e. Reed & Sue)

[drwally]

You make very valid points, but still... the funny thing is, this is the Batman - Love Life (Or Lack Thereof) thread:

Question: Does Batman need a romantic partner to make his stories interesing? Or, in other words, not who would be a good partner, but what would be the purpose of pairing him with someone? Is it necessary? Would it make for better stories? I haven't read the recent "Son of Batman" arc, is it that interesting or crucial to the development of Batman?

[esophagus]

Serialized films are not quite the same. Maintaining characters that appear once every so often is not a problem, its when you're dealing with the same character every month (comics) or every week (TV) is when you run into the problem of boredom.

Ralph and Sue worked becaue they weren't series regulars. Prior to Identity Crisis, I've haven't read a book that Ralph appeared in regularly since the early 1990s.

Of course, there are always exceptions to prove the rule (i.e. Reed & Sue)I always think of Ralph and Sue as the perfect example of that. Ralph got no lime-light, he wasn't in any books, so being a married man was never a problem. Then all of the sudden pops back and within a couple of years he's fighting, angry, and eventually widowed.

You could also look at it in the way of real life. Ralph had nothing to do. He went out on patrol to be an outstanding citizen and great man, but with the bigger heroes out there to take over, he always had time for family. At one point, around Identity Crisis, he snaps back into the game. He's involved in major "cases", if you will, and finds himself constantly out for work. This puts a stress on the marriag,e and probably would have ended it in the long run, had Sue not died.

[paper]

Why does Batman have to be domesticated?

I don't think a Batman relationship would be all that different from a Daredevil relationship anyway.

[esophagus]

Why does Batman have to be domesticated? I've always thought Batman was much more suited for the Lois and Clark story.

Billionaire Bruce Wayne falls in love with one of the many many girls he takes out and saves her life as Batman. She loves Batman but doesn't find the connection. He pines over her, but can't tell her they're one and the same. The difference? Batman should never be married, or have a healthy relatiosnhip.

[diabhol]

Wow, did you mean to insult comic book writers that harshly?

(I wasn't just talking about comics, by the way)

Yes, I did. Especially the ones from the previous ages of comics, where the sexism was more rampant.

(I know. Neither was I.)

[conorkilpatrick]

Yes, I did. Especially the ones from the previous ages of comics, where the sexism was more rampant.

Well, I'm at a loss.

[six-gun]

Yes, I did. Especially the ones from the previous ages of comics, where the sexism was more rampant.

(I know. Neither was I.)

I'm having trouble thinking of a single unmarried comic book writer.

Most all mention their wives in interviews, Brian Bendis has a three year old for Heaven's sake!

[esophagus]

I'm having trouble thinking of a single unmarried comic book writer.

Most all mention their wives in interviews, Brian Bendis has a three year old for Heaven's sake!I chose to ignore him. There's too many holes to pick in his argument. Oh well.

[six-gun]

I chose to ignore him. There's too many holes to pick in his argument. Oh well.

I think you and I do that to each other a lot anyway, so we have practice ;)

[esophagus]

I think you and I do that to each other a lot anyway, so we have practice ;)I'm going to ignore that. =p

[six-gun]

I'm going to ignore that. =p

touche my man, touche

[diabhol]

I'm having trouble thinking of a single unmarried comic book writer.

Most all mention their wives in interviews, Brian Bendis has a three year old for Heaven's sake!

I'm not really talking about current writers at this point and certainly not about Bendis. Hell, I think Bendis makes my point. He is one of the people writing a good relationship in a comic book.

[diabhol]

You make very valid points, but still... the funny thing is, this is the Batman - Love Life (Or Lack Thereof) thread:

Question: Does Batman need a romantic partner to make his stories interesing? Or, in other words, not who would be a good partner, but what would be the purpose of pairing him with someone? Is it necessary? Would it make for better stories?

Nobody <i>needs</i> a romantic partner, but good stories can come from them. Is Batman the sort of character who should be permanently married off? Probably not. Still, Bruce Wayne should be able to scratch the old itch every once in a while just like anyone else.

[drwally]

Nobody <i>needs</i> a romantic partner, but good stories can come from them. Is Batman the sort of character who should be permanently married off? Probably not. Still, Bruce Wayne should be able to scratch the old itch every once in a while just like anyone else.

I think much richer and more compelling stories have come from the theme of Batman's isolation and alienation in his one man war on crime. Enter: Alfred (who raised him, now not a father figure, but something more complex and interesting, hard to explain so interesting), and Robin (father/son dynamic) or Jim Gordon (battle comrade). Friction that comes up from time to time between Superman and Batman is also a part of this, I think. Superman wants to show he's the nice normal boy scout, and Bruce kind of sneers at that, doesn't he? In Kingdom Come, Superman has blinders on, but Batman is the old single cynical warrior, totaly knows what's really going on, no blinders, battle scars and all (and a great character at that, I think). These are much more compelling story dynamics than a "Bruce's babe of the month" story. Many might agree that the forced inclusion of a love interest in the Batman movies was a minus, whereas the recent Christian Bale movies have steered away from this as much as possible- just look at the fan reaction to the woman in that one.

Catwoman and Talia work as women that get past Bruce's walls, but look at them - they also have their own big isloation/alienation issues, and its always pretty furtive with those two.

Again I ask- was the "Son of Batman" storyline that interesting and did it add much to the Batman as an ongoing character?

I think of Batman as a kind of old "Warrior Monk" type of character, thematically, which is has a pretty old tradition in story telling. Ollie Queen is your ladies man. I think Tim Drake should have some romance going on in his life. Clark is desperate to be normal. Batman couldn't give a crap, and that's a pretty high wall for a woman to climb.

I also question this- why do we need our heroes to "prove" their sexuality by proving their ability to get laid? For many heroes, I like these stories of romance and love unrequited, and all that, but I am REALLY tired of Batman having to prove he's not queer. I'm queer, but I'll stand by the Bat's hetero cred - he just does not need to get laid to prove anything, that's not his priority.

[mikegraham6]

i think that if Batman ever gets into a long term relationship it should be with someone who is mentally unstable. They don't have to be dangerous/criminally psychotic, there are plenty more types of mental issues (maybe manic?) but it would fit in with the theme of mental issues in the Bat-Universe (Batman, Joker)

i think it would make for some interesting stories

[six-gun]

i think that if Batman ever gets into a long term relationship it should be with someone who is mentally unstable. They don't have to be dangerous/criminally psychotic, there are plenty more types of mental issues (maybe manic?) but it would fit in with the theme of mental issues in the Bat-Universe (Batman, Joker)

i think it would make for some interesting stories

One could argue that Talia is unstable

[iSteve]

I don't think Batman needs or wants a woman to settle down with, but he is not meant to be a monk either. Throughout his history, he's had a number of different relationships - and more than just arm-candy for Bruce Wayne, his alter ego. Right now he is going through a long dry spell. I say it's time for him to have a little companionship. Like Daredevil, his love life could enhance his already tortured soul.

[mikegraham6]

One could argue that Talia is unstable
i thought about that, but i think it would be more interesting (and original) if she was just an average person. it would be more difficult i think for a writer to seriously tackle mental illness in a comic without taking the villain/psychotic approach.

Think about it, Batman falls in love and dates this woman for a significant period of time, finally revealing his identity to her, but she starts to get more and more ill, creating more conflict and stress in Batman's life. Did he make a mistake revealing his ID to her? will she reveal the secret?


damn, i should be writer ;)

[drwally]

I say it's time for him to have a little companionship. Like Daredevil, his love life could enhance his already tortured soul.

Yeah, I agree Steve, and you make the best comparison Paper also did-Daredevil. Daredevil getting married - boy, that worked out, right? (For the record, I'm in the Milla fan minority). Warrior Monk - keep in mind both Batman and DD have heavy Asian martial arts training. That stuff is very far removed from the romantic tradition of Lancelot and all that.

Frank Miller reportedly tossed or filed away Daredevil story ideas during his run because in discussions with editors or others, they came to the conclusion-"That's a Batman story, not a Daredevil story." He left Daredevil, did the Dark Knight Returns, the rest is history.

Matt Murdock's character has almost always been one to live the life of snarling kick ass Daredevil at night, AND be the nice sweet lawyer during the day. He wants his horns, but he wants his Milla too (or Karen, or Electra, or Natasha, you choose).

Batman, in stark contrast, has usually been the isolated man dedicated 100% to his mission. You can't really call him lonely, in a sense, because he's usually been completely satisfied to almost completely forgo any love relationship would (key point here) distract him from his mission. Matt, by contrast, is a mess. It is facinating, because of the two Bruce has the financial resources to lead a double life, whereas Matt has always played his double identity pretty close to the brink.

And Bats has Jim Gordon, Alfred, Dick and Tim all getting on him about getting too isolated. The supporting cast is there, the woman is superfluous. It's Detective Comics, not True Romance.

Of course I'm completely open to someone, a woman, trying to get behind the Bat's mask - there was an odd little moment wiith Rene Montoya (of all people) in an issue of Gotham Central. I am completely open to reading the Sascha Bordeax stuff, I like that character, that relationship makes sense and seems (from what I've heard) to be a much more facinating way as a story for a woman to get behind the Bat mask.

The Catwoman dynamic, I think, makes a whole lotta sense because Selina goes for what she wants and brooks no complaints. Women that pine away for Bruce to come round? Whatever, ain't gonna happen. The woman has to be the one to force the issue.

But I can tell you - If Bruce were to take a look at Matt Murdock's lovelife? I am 100% sure he would say, "NO WAY am I going down that road..."

[diabhol]

I think much richer and more compelling stories have come from the theme of Batman's isolation and alienation in his one man war on crime.

I don't disagree with that, but I don't think it's wise if we *never* have any ripples in the water.


I also question this- why do we need our heroes to "prove" their sexuality by proving their ability to get laid? For many heroes, I like these stories of romance and love unrequited, and all that, but I am REALLY tired of Batman having to prove he's not queer. I'm queer, but I'll stand by the Bat's hetero cred - he just does not need to get laid to prove anything, that's not his priority.

It's not Batman's hetero cred that's in question, IMO. It's his human cred. I don't personally give a crap whether he's a stud, but I do think he is a human and he has needs. Is he obsessed, driven, and single-minded? Absolutely. But he's not a dickless asexual and I think the "warrior monk" idea takes the whole thing too far. I'd like to see Batman occasionally think about what his war on crime costs him; I'd like to see Bruce Wayne bed some woman and then quickly get rid of them when it's over. Not as if he's some kind of asshole, but just the idea that maybe he needed to feel normal for an hour and now that's done. Charlie Sheen once said you don't pay prostitutes to have sex with you; you pay them to leave afterward. That's the kinda thing I'm talking about. (Not that I'm suggesting Bruce have hookers delivered to Wayne Manor or anything...)


I dunno, maybe I'm nuts. While I've always dug the character, I'm certainly not the huge Batman fan that some of y'all are (at least, not since a few months in 1989 when the movie came out. :)

[mikegraham6]

Not as if he's some kind of asshole, but just the idea that maybe he needed to feel normal for an hour and now that's done.

Batman/Bruce Wayne only feels normal when he's bashing in the skulls of murderous punks

[jbeck]

I think of Batman as a kind of old "Warrior Monk" type of character, thematically, which is has a pretty old tradition in story telling. Ollie Queen is your ladies man. I think Tim Drake should have some romance going on in his life. Clark is desperate to be normal. Batman couldn't give a crap, and that's a pretty high wall for a woman to climb.


Batman also mirrors The Lone Gunfighter archetype in the western tradition. John Wayne, Alan Ladd, all the way up to Clint Eastwood; these characters have romantic entanglements but never end up " with the girl " so to speak. They ride out after the final gunfight to continue the Struggle. Story wise, The Monk and the Gunfighter are always denied the " happy ending " of domestication. It's the Student ( or Sidekick ) who usually gets married at the end. In this view, Gordon fulfills the role of " the Old Sheriff ", and Robin is the Sidekick. I guess that makes Alfred ...Gabby Hayes ?

[drwally]

Diabhol & Jbeck: Great comments. If you two guys hashed out a "Batman and a Woman" script (and Mike was your editor), I would definitely read it.

Greg Rucka, no stranger to Batman, based Queen and Country in a big way on one of my all time favorite TV shows: "The Sandbaggers," which I am now rewatching. Unlike Q&C, "The Sandbaggers" makes the Director of Operations the main character, whearas Rucka (who obviously based his D.Ops on the guy from Sandbaggers) focuses on an operative, Tara Chace.

Point is, I just saw an episode of The Sandbaggers, where the D.Ops, who can only handle his job and is a complete failure at human intimacy (somewhat like Batman?) has an incredibly charming and deep felt romantic scene.

Long story short, can anyone direct me to the issues of Batman or Detective Comics or whatever when Sasha Bordeaux first showed up in Bruce Wayne's life?

I think I might like that...

[sullivan85]

I just read the first arc of Nightwing post-Infinite Crisis (the one where he moves to NYC). The panel you see Dick in this book, he's waking up next to a girl he just me the day before. Bats might have issues with gettin' his freak on, but Nightwing is a pimp!

[mikegraham6]

I just read the first arc of Nightwing post-Infinite Crisis (the one where he moves to NYC). The panel you see Dick in this book, he's waking up next to a girl he just me the day before. Bats might have issues with gettin' his freak on, but Nightwing is a pimp!

that arc made me throw up in disgust, one of the worst arcs i've ever read (but in all honesty i only read the first two issues)

[conorkilpatrick]

Long story short, can anyone direct me to the issues of Batman or Detective Comics or whatever when Sasha Bordeaux first showed up in Bruce Wayne's life?

She first shows up here: Detective Comics #751 (http://www.comicbookdb.com/issue.php?ID=48837).

And she hangs around for a while. (http://www.comicbookdb.com/character_chron.php?ID=1593)

[sullivan85]

that arc made me throw up in disgust, one of the worst arcs i've ever read (but in all honesty i only read the first two issues)

I wasn't that impressed either, but having Dick just flat out get laid stood out in my mind due to reading this thread.

Side Note: Someone please kill Jason Todd again. He doesn't seem as evil as much as he's just a huge asshole.

[drwally]

She first shows up here: Detective Comics #751 (http://www.comicbookdb.com/issue.php?ID=48837).

And she hangs around for a while. (http://www.comicbookdb.com/character_chron.php?ID=1593)

Thanks, Conor, you are the man, I knew you would come through. And I half guessed it would be something scattered and not collected in trades very coherently. Thanks much, your links are now *bookmarked*

[esophagus]

Bats might have issues with gettin' his freak on, but Nightwing is a pimp!Please, never, ever, utter those words again.