View Full Version : this is pretty cool: Math and Art and music.
rabidbadger
11-11-2007, 04:58 PM
ROME - It's a new Da Vinci code, but this time it could be for real. An Italian musician and computer technician claims to have uncovered musical notes encoded in Leonardo Da Vinci's "Last Supper,"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21724485/
acidburn
11-11-2007, 06:17 PM
If this is true and not just a coincidence, that is definitely cool.
masherscf
11-11-2007, 06:48 PM
I've got musical notes encoded in my anus... j/k.
That wild Leonardo...
Patch
11-11-2007, 07:09 PM
"A Chupacabra found in Da Vinci's "Last Supper". Tonight at 11."
I see patterns where there are none! ;)
EDIT: I loved this line. "It's like a soundtrack that emphasizes the passion of Jesus." Haha! Yes, his passion. Try John 2:15.
comhcinc
11-11-2007, 08:17 PM
neat. one problem through. the last supper predates the modern notation that they are using.
rabidbadger
11-11-2007, 08:28 PM
I was wondering about that!
actually the five line staff and the concept of composition (prior to that all music was church controlled plainchant (gregorian chant) and there were no notes but rather there were neumes - a series of dots and dashes) were introduced in mid fifteenth century in france an outgrowth of the work of guido of arezzo so leonardo could have known of the five line system - also modes were used (dorian phrygian lydian etc. [church modes - there are also greek modes] not keys (C major A minor etc.) such as we use today
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_notation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guidonian_hand
however the article does not say anything about the size (actually duration) of the notes - whole notes half notes quarter notes eighth notes etc. - and it is not exactly genius to pick out a series of whole notes within a single octave - anyone could do so - and there is no time signature nor tempo given - the notes sound as if they are played largo or largretto (slow and mournful) they would sound cheerful if played andante or allegro
the story is full of holes as far as music theory but not entirely impossible - i will run it by my genius musicologist friend - he will know if anyone will
masherscf
11-12-2007, 12:42 PM
If you want to see a real interesection between art and Mathematics. Chick on this Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessellation
If you want to see a real interesection between art and Mathematics. Chick on this Wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessellation
and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio ) :)
all art is based on symmetry and proportion which distills to math
probably the only thing not directly reducible to math is human emotion
comhcinc
11-12-2007, 04:02 PM
[COLOR="Teal"]actually the five line staff and the concept of composition (prior to that all music was church controlled plainchant (gregorian chant) and there were no notes but rather there were neumes - a series of dots and dashes) were introduced in mid fifteenth century in france an outgrowth of the work of guido of arezzo so leonardo could have known of the five line system
that article is wrong on serval points. mordern notation was developed in italy, not france and didn't really started catching on until after "The Last Supper" was painted.
that article is wrong on serval points. mordern notation was developed in italy, not france and didn't really started catching on until after "The Last Supper" was painted.
i don't think so
and i have spent hundreds of hours studying music theory including learning how to sing gregorian chant from the original neumes
and including 10 semesters of music history
if you read my post carefully you will see that the outgrowth of the work of guido d'arezzo led to the five line staff
musicians travelled from court to court as princes and kings were the venue through which secular music began to flourish
ballet also began in france though perfected in italy and risen to its greatest heights in imprerial russia
minstrels were already formed into guilds in FRANCE in the early 14th century
music was my college major music composition my area of focus
let me ask you a question to see how much you know on this subject
which note of the 7 note scale does NOT come from nature and how does it end up in the scale ?
actually i will give you another guestion to see how much you know
which famous scientist was related to which musician credited (with others) with the origination of opera - what was their group called and what city were they from ?
masherscf
11-12-2007, 04:50 PM
and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio) :)
all art is based on symmetry and proportion which distills to math
probably the only thing not directly reducible to math is human emotion
Actually, you'd be surpised how much Math is not directly reducible to Math. The whole "infinity" concept is still pretty touchy-feely.
Actually, you'd be surpised how much Math is not directly reducible to Math. The whole "infinity" concept is still pretty touchy-feely.
maybe infinity is just a human mental construct like time
masherscf
11-12-2007, 05:16 PM
maybe infinity is just a human mental construct like time
It depends on how you define things.
However, time is nature's way of keeping things from happening all a once.
that article is wrong on serval points. mordern notation was developed in italy, not france and didn't really started catching on until after "The Last Supper" was painted.
according to THE HARVARD DICTIONARY OF MUSIC - second edition page 806
"for notating polyphonic music the five note staff was used as early as the 13th century"
It depends on how you define things.
However, time is nature's way of keeping things from happening all a once.
agreed
though the i ching has another interesting view on time
'time makes actual what is potential'
:)
comhcinc
11-12-2007, 05:37 PM
let me ask you a question to see how much you know on this subject
which note of the 7 note scale does NOT come from nature and how does it end up in the scale ?
actually i will give you another guestion to see how much you know
which famous scientist was related to which musician credited (with others) with the origination of opera - what was their group called and what city were they from ?
yeah, i'm not going play this game with you. yea, you got the music addition of trivia pursuit for your birthday! modern music notation came about in Italy. that's why all the terms are in italian. if it was created in france, even using a earlier italian work, it would be in french.
yeah, i'm not going play this game with you. yea, you got the music addition of trivia pursuit for your birthday! modern music notation came about in Italy. that's why all the terms are in italian. if it was created in france, even using a earlier italian work, it would be in french.
you won't play because you don't know and don't fool yourself into thinking everyone who reads this does not know that :D
and i got a lot more than a trivial pursuit edition (not addition) out of it
i got a paid for by honors scholarship college degree and a career :cool:
the answers are
fa (fourth note subdominant) is not in the natural scale it is derived by implication as it is the same interval down from do as sol (dominant fifth note) is up from do
vincenzo gallili father of galileo gallilli was a member of the florentine camarata which gave birth to the first opera 'daphne' - the florentine camerata met in the late 16th century and is one of the few revolutions in music prior to the twentieth century where theory preceded practice
as for all the terms being in italian - the word clef (as in bass clef and treble clef ) is a derivation of the french word for clue
:)
tokenuser
11-12-2007, 06:17 PM
Without mathematics (and consequently the sciences) we would still be drawing stick figures on cave walls in time to the banging of the rocks together.
Muscial tablatuer "hidden" in the Last Supper? Bit of a stretch ... you can find patterns just about anywhere if you look hard enough.
comhcinc
11-12-2007, 06:45 PM
[COLOR="Teal"]you won't play because you don't know and don't fool yourself into thinking everyone who reads this does not know that :D
and i got a lot more than a trivial pursuit edition (not addition) out of it
i got a paid for by honors scholarship college degree and a career :cool:
well i feel no need to prove how much i know. and wow, yep you caught me. i misspelled a word, ha.
i do know one thing. if i had spent over 3 years studying music history and a "paid for by honors scholarship college degree and a career", i think i would mention that before i started quoting wiki artcles. then again that's just me.
the funny thing is i agree with you as to the subject of the thread, but you are so worried about proving your superiority, you have to take shots at some one who has yet proved any background in music. if i was where you claim to be, it wouldn't even worry me.
the funny thing is i agree with you as to the subject of the thread, but you are so worried about proving your superiority, you have to take shots at some one who has yet proved any background in music. if i was where you claim to be, it wouldn't even worry me.
i am not worried about anything - there is nothing to worry about
'all will be well and all manner of things will be well' t s eliot
:)
rabidbadger
11-12-2007, 08:24 PM
wow, I didn't expect the spanish inquisition when I came back here! haha
Anyway, this podcast from science friday is an interesting look at music and the mind.
description: Oliver Sacks - Musicophilia: How does music affect the brain? Join Ira in this segment for a conversation with neurologist and author Oliver Sacks about the brain and music. (first broadcast Friday, November 9, 2007)
link (http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200711094)
wow, I didn't expect the spanish inquisition when I came back here! haha
well if i said something inaccurate about computers or the internet to bill gates or jay adelson would it serve me if they did not correct me ?
anyway the podcast says musicians brains are different
there was a time when i couldn't have picked out middle c to save my life but i wanted to be a musician so much i was and am so grateful that it turned out i had some talent
Anyway, this podcast from science friday is an interesting look at music and the mind.
description: Oliver Sacks - Musicophilia: How does music affect the brain? Join Ira in this segment for a conversation with neurologist and author Oliver Sacks about the brain and music. (first broadcast Friday, November 9, 2007)
link (http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200711094)
i once read about a man who had no music equipment at all - he could pick up an orchestral score and while reading it he heard every note perfectly in his mind
compared to him i am nothing of a musician