Comic Book Shops That Sort By Publisher Are Part of the Problem!

[UnnamedFrenchGuy]

There. I said it.

In the prose world the author is king when it comes to sorting. In the comic book world the dichotomy of author and artist make this a no go. The natural alternative is title. Segregating by publishing house is an unacceptable complication. It's fine for old hands who know the publisher's and their accompanying flavour and style. However, for the new reader this is just another level of obfuscation that they don't need.

Alright, I'm done ranting but that one has been boiling for a while.

[esophagus]

I think sorting by publisher is exactly what new people need. If I went in and saw a Brubaker shelf and bought the newest issues of both Cap and Criminal, I'd be lost. A person who loves one, may not love both, nor will they understand that the two may not be related. A person may, on the other hand, want to know what books are relating to their most recent issue of Countdown, and it may not be written by the same guy. Not to mention the fact that it would be totally unfair to leave artists out of the picture and categorize by writer.

[UnnamedFrenchGuy]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I think, for comics, sorting by title only is the way to go.

[esophagus]

Oops, you did. I guess it's to late for me to argue rationally. I still say publisher makes more sense. Sure, it would be good to have an organization of title within publisher (which a lot of places do), but I don't think picking up an issue of Countdown and DMZ is what a lot of new people need.

[paper]

I think a civilian could survive in a world where DMZ is next to Daredevil, Eso. No matter how you sort the books they're still going to have to do their research or ask questions.

With your argument (Eso), the best way to do this is by genre. Imagine the Capes section, the Crime section, Gender Issues, Talking Animals....and you're just asking for trouble.

[KieronGillen]

I think sorting by Title is pretty much the way I'd go. Anything else is just ghettoisation.

But I'm a terrible idealist.

KG

[itsbecca]

With your argument (Eso), the best way to do this is by genre. Imagine the Capes section, the Crime section, Gender Issues, Talking Animals....and you're just asking for trouble.

Now that you mention it that sounds awesome. But it would be horribly unpratical for shop owners and for customers trying to find a specific title they didn't know much about.

As far as publishers I think it would actually be a turn off to new people. Say I'm getting into comics and I just saw the new Spiderman movie. I might not know marvel, but I can definitley sound out... S... Spiderman. Plus, publisher sorting usually means DC, Marvel and then the INDIE section. Maybe Image and Darkhorse get a plaque. MAYBE.

[Labor_Days]

Sorting by title so logical and simple. Why do I have to run half way across the store to pick up Astonishing X-Men and Action Comics?

They should both be under "A", damnit. I am not so much an idealist as just plain old lazy.

[JAFlanagan]

The problem is that comics aren't as clear cut as traditional prose books.

Does Astonishing X-Men fall under "A" or "X"? Should Detective Comics be under "D" or "B"?

It depends on who you're catering to. If you're looking for new readers, it's one way. Me, I find the publishers a very easy way to find the books I like, at least with issues.

Perhaps trades/books should go alphabetical by title, and issues by publisher?

You can't do trades by author because a good deal of trade paperbacks have mulitple authors. Older collections don't even list the writer's name.

I guess, there's no perfect answer, because whatever you do to make one person happy is going to make another unhappy.

[Labor_Days]

Does Astonishing X-Men fall under "A" or "X"? Should Detective Comics be under "D" or "B"?

I don't understand. They are not called "X-men, Astonishing" or Batman, Detective Comics".

Why would one organize their shelves in such way? I am confused.

Should I rearrange my bookshelf so Rabbit Run is in the "A" section?

[kwok_talk]

I would think X-titles would go together with other X-titles (just alphabetized within subcategories so that Astonishing would be before Uncanny)

[Labor_Days]

But that's just ghettoizing of a different sort.

[kwok_talk]

But that's just ghettoizing of a different sort.

That's how we do things in the ghetto of...suburban West County St. Louis. Bags & boards fo' life!

Word.:)

[s1lentslayer]

As a "new" reader, I would prefer alphabetical and my second choice would be "genre". The last choice would be publisher. And Josh, Astonishing X-Men would be "A" and Detective Comics would be "D" :)

If I go to Barnes and Noble, I don't go to the Random House section or Scholastic aisle. I also don't have to figure out who published Lord of the Rings or Jane Eyre.

[Labor_Days]

That's how we do things in the ghetto of...suburban West County St. Louis. Bags & boards fo' life!

Word.:)

Ha! Well, you can do whatever you like within your own home. But shops? Some level of organizational logic needs to be applied that isn't dependent on shuffling books by genre or pedigree.

I don't understand the logic behind such a system. It's akin to Josh organizing his DVDs by "shark movies". (no offense meant, Josh)

Superman goes under "S", Action Comics under "A", Supergirl before Superman. All Star goes under "A" after Action Comics, et cetera.

Do you arrange other books by character? Of course not. It would make no sense filing Updike novels under "A" because they all have the same character in them.

[Six Gun]

Sorting by title so logical and simple. Why do I have to run half way across the store to pick up Astonishing X-Men and Action Comics?

They should both be under "A", damnit. I am not so much an idealist as just plain old lazy.

The store I used to go to had two shelves above each other, marvel on top dc on bottom with A-Left to right, Indies (what little they had) were on the far right

[kwok_talk]

Superman goes under "S", Action Comics under "A", Supergirl before Superman. All Star goes under "A" after Action Comics, et cetera.

Do you arrange other books by character? Of course not. It would make no sense filing Updike novels under "A" because they all have the same character in them.

I don't feel like it's a parallel thing - it works for novels, but I think comics would be different. In your Superman example, yes I actually would like all my Super-titles together. Generally if I was a fan of one character with multiple books, I would think of it as one-stop shopping if all the titles were there.

[Labor_Days]

Ok, then let us put all the Batman, X-men, Superman, and Spider-man books in their respective section. And let's put all the Fear Agent books with Fear Agent books, and Suburban Glamour books with...whoopsie, we're organizing by market share again.

Hey Bob, my non-comics reading friend, could you get me a copy of Action Comics #850? It's under Superman. :rolleyes:

[Tad]

One of my shops organizes by publisher. Most people make the full circuit of the shop anyway so it probably doesn't matter. The one advantage to organizing this way is when there's a crossover going on, it's easy to find the related periodicals.

My other shop orders just about everything that's published. All periodicals are sorted alphabetically, publishers intermixed. BUT one wall is superhero stuff. The other wall is everything that's not, even if it's published by one of the big two. All graphic novels are sorted alphabetically by title.

All I can say is that there's never been a problem with finding anything. It all seems intuitive.

[kahunablair]

Wait...
So we're saying the best way to help new readers is to Alphabetize by Title?
Astonishing in the A's, New in the N's, so on and so on?

That makes no sense.
So a kid is going to come in and say, "I want a book about the X-Men. I saw their movie it was cool."
So we say, "Ok, Go look under X-Men for the one title, then under A for the other, oh, then N for the other."
Honestly that would make me walk out quicker then anything. What's more inside then having to know a books actual title?

I've shopped at a store that goes the publisher route. It works. You get your X-Men together, Superman together, etc, etc.

[Labor_Days]

Wait...
So we're saying the best way to help new readers is to Alphabetize by Title?
Astonishing in the A's, New in the N's, so on and so on?

That makes no sense.
So a kid is going to come in and say, "I want a book about the X-Men. I saw their movie it was cool."
So we say, "Ok, Go look under X-Men for the one title, then under A for the other, oh, then N for the other."
Honestly that would make me walk out quicker then anything. What's more inside then having to know a books actual title?

I've shopped at a store that goes the publisher route. It works. You get your X-Men together, Superman together, etc, etc.

You're right it doesn't make any sense. The shop owner should have told the kid to go pick out Astonishing X-men, it's under "A".

I see no reason for comics to buck a system of organization that works for everything else. Next you dudes are going to be saying that titles which begin in "The" belong in the "T" section.

[kahunablair]

Buck a system? You're crazy my man.
So what you're saying is, we have a chance to hook a new reader to this kick butt meduim, and you want to send him on a treasure hunt to find the 18 different X-Men books?



Next you dudes are going to be saying that titles which begin in "The" belong in the "T" section.
... Now you're just being silly.

[Labor_Days]

I'm just joking here. Should have put a smilie in there.


But yeah, I don't see why comics warrant a special system. Do you level the same treasure hunt claim when some kid comes in to a record store and says, "I want 4AD records" and the shop owner tells him to go find Blonde Redhead and Throwing Muses under the "B" and "T" sections?

Those aren't filed by label or genre and people don't seem to have any trouble finding records.

[kahunablair]

I knew you were joking man. That's why I said you were being silly.

See the problem with your example is the kid isn't going to come in and say,
"Hi, I saw the X-Men movie, can you tell me where the Marvel books are."
He'll ask for the X-Men books.

But yeah, I don't see why comics warrant a special system.
Why not? Why does it have to be something set in stone? The whole comic book industry is ran differently then both the music or "regular" book publishers.

Those aren't filed by label or genre and people don't seem to have any trouble finding records.
Plus, I really can't think of one music store I go to, that doesn't sort by Genre.

[Labor_Days]

See the problem with your example is the kid isn't going to come in and say,
"Hi, I saw the X-Men movie, can you tell me where the Marvel books are."
He'll ask for the X-Men books.

And what is the problem? The clerk can direct him to Astonishing X-men, or Uncanny or X-men; in the "A", "U" and "X" sections, respectively.

It's not hard to figure out. And people are more accustomed to that sort of organization. Unless your music & book stores organize their books and music by Random House and Kill Rock Stars.

Why not? Why does it have to be something set in stone? The whole comic book industry is ran differently then both the music or "regular" book publishers.

It doesn't have to be set in stone. It's just a nice logical way of doing things that is easily understandable across the board.

I feel like it's less daunting for someone browsing the racks to not worry about DC/Marvel/Dark Horse. It allows for a Suburban Glamour to be picked up alongside a Sub-Mariner or such.

Plus, I really can't think of one music store I go to, that doesn't sort by Genre.

Music stores sort by genre in the why that books stores sort by fiction and non-fiction. That is to say very broadly.

I worked in a record store for years. And I can tell you with absolute certainty, that there is no level of fandom as hyper-critical, exacting and standoff-ish as hardcore music fans. Had we put a Dream-Pop record beside a Shoegaze record, we would lose business. No question about it.

I don't think comics benefit from that kind isolationism. You want a Bikini Kill record? It's under "B", Le Tigre is under "L".

[MrUgly]

My comic shop goes by the publisher as well and it annoys me. Any time I go in there I just ask the owner if they have the issues I'm interested in buying and she points it out to me. I really like my shop and the friendly banter I have with the owner, but I feel much more comfertable looking around Jim Hanley's or the other shops that try to go by alphabetical order as much as possible. I understand putting the Robin books under "B" near the Batman books, but the segregation of publishers is too much.

[kahunablair]

I really think I see why we disagree here, Labor.
You want the store to be set up for the regulars. You want to be able to just know the title, and just go search for your books, bang, out you go.

I'd rather have it so that the new guy doesn't have to read previews, or talk to the shop owner to see that a new X-Men title is starting up. He could just hit up the X-Men section and see, "Oh look, new title."


I don't think comics benefit from that kind isolationism. You want a Bikini Kill record? It's under "B", Le Tigre is under "L".
Well if we really want to use your model of Astonishing going under A and New going under N, we'd have Le Tigre split up.
Feminist Sweepstake would go under F, and This Island would go under T.

[JGG0610]

I think the idea of going by publisher makes perfect sense and then having them organized within publisher so that all like books end up in the same area is really the most logical choice.

The idea of comparing comic books to prose books doesn't hold up because prose book publishing isn't dominated by two publishers. If it were, I guarantee you that the system would not look anything like it does now. On top of that, the prose book market isn't driven by the weekly release schedule. If you went into a book store and wanted to buy a book that was published before four weeks ago, you wouldn't expect to have to go to a long box of books and hope they had a copy, would you? I'm hoping the answer is no. They would be trying to apply one medium's model to another where it doesn't work. You have the same situation when you try and compare the orginization of single issues to a book store.

[Labor_Days]

I really think I see why we disagree here, Labor.
You want the store to be set up for the regulars. Y

Hold now. You lost me.

How does this benefit regulars more so that newbies?

If I were to recommend Robin as a great book for someone with a casual interest in Batman (as I have done) and this person were to go to the comic shop looking for a Robin comic (as they have done) and found that the book was under "B" in the DC section rather than the alphanumeric left-to-right model they are used to; you're telling me this is more intuitive for someone new to comics?

Could not comic stores set up spinner racks and I dunno, advertise newly started books, in a "New on the Racks" section like...every other book and music store?

Aging, where is this bewilderment to the A-Z system in every other store?

Well if we really want to use your model of Astonishing going under A and New going under N, we'd have Le Tigre split up.
Feminist Sweepstake would go under F, and This Island would go under T.

Only valid if we organized albums by title. If that were the case, "F" and "T" would be the sections they belong under. Of course.

But we organize records by artist because that is what stays consistent. As the title of a comic is more likely to remain consistent than Peter Milligian writing all the Robin comics.

And as I said, I like that someone might pick up DMZ along with a more mainstream book. Without having to arbitrarily separate books.

[Labor_Days]

The idea of comparing comic books to prose books doesn't hold up because prose book publishing isn't dominated by two publishers. If it were, I guarantee you that the system would not look anything like it does now. On top of that, the prose book market isn't driven by the weekly release schedule. If you went into a book store and wanted to buy a book that was published before four weeks ago, you wouldn't expect to have to go to a long box of books and hope they had a copy, would you? I'm hoping the answer is no. They would be trying to apply one medium's model to another where it doesn't work. You have the same situation when you try and compare the orginization of single issues to a book store.

Um, the long boxes in my shop are arranged A-Z by publisher. Not by Batman books and Spider-man books. Nobody seems to have a problem and it's fairly logical to find what you want.

DC and Marvel may rule the roost but Indie publishers are only getting shafted by such a system.

[kahunablair]

Hold now. You lost me.
How does this benefit regulars more so that newbies?

Because you are counting on the kid to ask the shop owner what Title the X-men book he wants is under, instead of having him just go look in the X-Men section.
You have the fore-knowledge to walk into the store knowing the title of the book you're after. New people don't. They just have an idea of what Type of book.


But we organize records by artist because that is what stays consistent. As the title of a comic is more likely to remain consistent than Peter Milligian writing all the Robin comics.
And as I said, I like that someone might pick up DMZ along with a more mainstream book. Without having to arbitrarily separate books.
Right, since we can't sort Comics by Author, Artist or Musician whats the next best thing? Publisher, Genre, or "Family of Books."

[Labor_Days]

Because you are counting on the kid to ask the shop owner what Title the X-men book he wants is under, instead of having him just go look in the X-Men section.
No, I am counting on the kid to say "I like X-men". And the shop owner saying, "Astonishing X-men is awesome. it's under A". And the kid being able to find it through the application of logic.

Right, since we can't sort Comics by Author, Artist or Musician whats the next best thing? Publisher, Genre, or "Family of Books."
I just don't agree with the ghettoizing at all.

[kahunablair]

No, I am counting on the kid to say "I like X-men". And the shop owner saying, "Astonishing X-men is awesome. it's under A". And the kid being able to find it through the application of logic.
Your system is not only Hoping the kid asks, but pretty much MAKING the kid ask. Either that or he has to go through the racks to find something with Wolverine on the cover. (Not hard to do mind you, but still.)

I just don't agree with the ghettoizing at all.
I don't get the Ghettoizing thing. My shop you can't get to the Big Two if you don't first go past 3 racks of Indie books.
It's not the ordering of the books you have a problem with, it's the entire way the shop is set up.

[xyzzy]

There. I said it.

In the prose world the author is king when it comes to sorting. In the comic book world the dichotomy of author and artist make this a no go. The natural alternative is title. Segregating by publishing house is an unacceptable complication. It's fine for old hands who know the publisher's and their accompanying flavour and style. However, for the new reader this is just another level of obfuscation that they don't need.

Alright, I'm done ranting but that one has been boiling for a while.

Actually, in the prose book world shared universe books are generally shelved together, regardless of different titles or authors.

[esophagus]

Wait...
So we're saying the best way to help new readers is to Alphabetize by Title?
Astonishing in the A's, New in the N's, so on and so on?

That makes no sense.
So a kid is going to come in and say, "I want a book about the X-Men. I saw their movie it was cool."
So we say, "Ok, Go look under X-Men for the one title, then under A for the other, oh, then N for the other."
Honestly that would make me walk out quicker then anything. What's more inside then having to know a books actual title?

I've shopped at a store that goes the publisher route. It works. You get your X-Men together, Superman together, etc, etc.See, that's what I'm saying. It's not going to be harmful to anyone to pick up an issue of both DMZ and Daredevil. In fact, a lot of people would probably like both. But, they don't relate. If everything is done by publisher, you know what you're looking for. My shop goes by publisher and what it's related to. So Detective Comics and Batman would be under the same heading. This way, anyone new, who happens to love Batman, knows there's multiple things they can be buying. And, if it's that confusing, just look at the whole DC shelf. So let's say Labor tells his friend to pick up Action Comics for him, but fails to mention it's under Superman. What's the worst that happens? a) He knows that it will be somewhere on the DC shelf b) He finds it on the DC shelf first anyway, because it's the largest or c) He has to ask an employee.

[esophagus]

If I go to Barnes and Noble, I don't go to the Random House section or Scholastic aisle. I also don't have to figure out who published Lord of the Rings or Jane Eyre.If different people had written each Lord of the Rings book I can almost guarantee they would all still be in the same place. We have to remember that this isn't as much about publisher as it is universe.

[Labor_Days]

Your system is not only Hoping the kid asks, but pretty much MAKING the kid ask. Either that or he has to go through the racks to find something with Wolverine on the cover. (Not hard to do mind you, but still.)

I'm only going by your example.

People are much more likely to just look around. If they can't find something, they ask. No big deal because this is the way it is in every other store.

But asking someone to "Go to the DC section, look under "B" for Batman and there you'll find Robin" is a lot more involved than simply saying, Robin is under "R".

Real world experience in sending friends to the comic shop bore this out for me.

I don't get the Ghettoizing thing. Having DC, Marvel and INDIE reinforces the notion of DC books are of this type, Marvel of that type.

The shoving everything else into a nebulous Indie section doesn't help when someone who only buys say, Marvel won't ever see a Suburban Glamour next to his Sub-Mariner to be intrigued by something a little more idiosyncratic.

[ConorKilpatrick]

This is all rather silly, I think.

I can't think of a single place I've been to that has a purely alphabetical organization.

You want books? Okay - do you want fiction, non-fiction, biography, sci-fi, mystery, etc., etc., etc.?

You want movies? Is it a comedy? Drama? Action? Documetnary?

You want music? Are you looking for rock? Hip Hop? Country?

Every media outlet I can think of* has some kind of system.

* Yes, I'm sure someone will come back with their annecdotal evidence of some local shop that arranges things purely alphabetically.

[esophagus]

This is all rather silly, I think.

I can't think of a single place I've been to that has a purely alphabetical organization.

You want books? Okay - do you want fiction, non-fiction, biography, sci-fi, mystery, etc., etc., etc.?

You want movies? Is it a comedy? Drama? Action? Documetnary?

You want music? Are you looking for rock? Hip Hop? Country?

Every media outlet I can think of* has some kind of system.

* Yes, I'm sure someone will come back with their annecdotal evidence of some local shop that arranges things purely alphabetically.Exactly!

If a person likes a bunch of comedies, they may find other gems to their liking in the comedy section. But, at no time does the salesclerk lock them in the comedy section so they don't get a look at horror. A person who loves Batman may love Superman, and the two may very well relate, but they're certainly free to go look at the Marvel and Indie sections.

[esophagus]

Asking someone to "Go to the DC section, look under "B" for Batman and there you'll find Robin" is a lot more involved than simply saying, Robin is under "R".

Comic shops really can't start organizing just in case people start getting non-comic readers to shop for them. Anyone new to comics is more than likely going to make rounds of the whole shop anyways. They can figure it out. Although I doubt most stores would put Robin under the Batman section.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Although I doubt most stores would put Robin under the Batman section.

Every store I've been to that organzies in that way does. Robin, Nightwing, etc. in the "B" section with the Batbooks.

[kahunablair]

Every store I've been to that organzies in that way does. Robin, Nightwing, etc. in the "B" section with the Batbooks.

Same here.

[xyzzy]

Having DC, Marvel and INDIE reinforces the notion of DC books are of this type, Marvel of that type.

They are of a type. They have a common shared universe. Go to almost any prose book store. Take a look at how the Star Wars or Star Trek novels are organized. They aren't spread out throught the science fiction section by author or title. They're in a separate section because they have that shared universe.

[xyzzy]

Every store I've been to that organzies in that way does. Robin, Nightwing, etc. in the "B" section with the Batbooks.

I've had the opposite experience. All Batman books (like Detective) might be under B, but the rest of the Bat family are off in their own section of the alphabet. Or sometimes, in both locations.

[esophagus]

Every store I've been to that organzies in that way does. Robin, Nightwing, etc. in the "B" section with the Batbooks.My store does, but by extension. I don't know how to explain it. It's simpler than "look for Robin under B"

[Labor_Days]

I can't think of a single place I've been to that has a purely alphabetical organization.

I really don't have a problem organizing by genre alphanumerically.

Comic shops really can't start organizing just in case people start getting non-comic readers to shop for them.

Then pop will eat itself.

My nephew loves Spider-Man, but he can't understand the concept that it's a Marvel book and Batman is a DC book. They are both superheroes to him. He sees no difference. When I tried to explain he literally put his hands on his face and said, "Forget it". I think that turns off more readers than Robin being under "R".

But ya'know, anachronisms and comic fans pretty much go hand in hand. So have fun with whatever system you feel is working for you.

[s1lentslayer]

Is there anything other than comic books whose primary sorting is by publisher? Not books, magazines, dvds, ... ? Their models all seem to be doing pretty well where it seems like comics could use some help.

Alphabetical or genre sorting would be my preference over publisher. Alphabetical has the newbie advantage, genre has the find-other-stuff-you-may-like advantage. Publisher has...fanboys? ;)

[esophagus]

Is there anything other than comic books whose primary sorting is by publisher? Not books, magazines, dvds, ... ? Their models all seem to be doing pretty well where it seems like comics could use some help.

Alphabetical or genre sorting would be my preference over publisher. Alphabetical has the newbie advantage, genre has the find-other-stuff-you-may-like advantage. Publisher has...fanboys? ;)Again, it has nothing to do with publisher. It's universe. The same way as all of the Star Wars characters exist in the same place, so do all DC characters. That's more important than the book actually saying DC.

[Labor_Days]

Assuming my nephew even knows that Batman is in the DC section.

But hey, comic stores can't really worry about newbies, amirite?

[ConorKilpatrick]

Assuming my nephew even knows that Batman is in the DC section.

Before you said it was no big deal for a new reader to ask the store employee where the X-Men books were, but now it is a big deal to ask where the Batman books are? That doesn't compute.


But hey, comic stores can't really worry about newbies, amirite?

New readers are going to have to understand the difference in the universes if they are going to read superhero comics. It is not realistic to pretend they don't exist because they do and they are important to the stories. I'm sorry but it's a fact.

Claiming that the universes are a hinderence to new readers is bullshit considering decades of new readers seem to have had no problem picking up comic books.

If understanding the difference between DC and Marvel was so awful we wouldn't be having this conversation because we wouldn't be reading comics.

[esophagus]

Assuming my nephew even knows that Batman is in the DC section.

But hey, comic stores can't really worry about newbies, amirite?How old is this nephew, might I ask?

I'm guessing 10, maybe? At which point, he'll figure it all out as he gets older.

[Labor_Days]

Before you said it was no big deal for a new reader to ask the store employee where the X-Men books were, but now it is a big deal to ask where the Batman books are? That doesn't compute.

I'm riffing on what Eso and Kahuna were saying.

I think most people browse, therefore an A-Z system is the least confusing and the most likely to expose smaller books to people.

But going by the examples Eso & Kahuna set up, one would have to know that Robin is under "B" on the DC shelf and comic stores don't really have to worry about new readers being confused by this. They'll just "pick it up" at some point.

And yet somehow an A-Z organizing by title is just too much for people. Because the model that works work for film, magazine, books, music and videogames can't translate to comic books.

This is what they propose. I think it's rubbish.

New readers are going to have to understand the difference in the universes if they are going to read superhero comics. It is not realistic to pretend they don't exist because they do and they are important to the stories. I'm sorry but it's a fact.

Claiming that the universes are a hinderence to new readers is bullshit considering decades of new readers seem to have had no problem picking up comic books.

If understanding the difference between DC and Marvel was so awful we wouldn't be having this conversation because we wouldn't be reading comics.

Nope. I was being snarky.

No need to pretend shared continuity doesn't exists. But should a 9 year old know all this beforehand or be saddled by such division to the point of frustration? I say, nay.

The perceived impenetrability of comics turns people off. You may believe otherwise, and that's fine. I don't agree and think that less of a "club" atmosphere is ultimately healthier.

[Dave Accampo]

How would you guys propose a shop sorts there books when there are "in-title" cross-overs...like the Messiah Complex?

Would that be more confusing to a general audience...if they have to run to X for X-men, N for New X-men, etc.?

Or should shops sort A-Z and then do a special rack for cross-overs (since they don't happen all the time)...?

I've seen a few retailers who will rack Robin with B AND with R. So if you're looking alphabetically, you can find Robin, but if you're looking with the Bat titles, you can also find Robin. Dunno if that's a good answer for everyone, though.

I'm not sure how I fall on the overall argument in this thread. On the one hand, comics aren't books, and they don't have the same needs.

for example, someone mentioned the whole shared universe. So you're not just separating by publisher, but by universe, right? Wouldn't that be similar to a bookstore racking all the, say, Star Trek novels together, despite the fact that the authors are different? So it's not so much a publisher argument as a "universe" argument.

(sorry if I'm repeating stuff that's already been said, I'm actually just trying to figure this out as I type.)

[kahunablair]

I'm riffing on what Eso and Kahuna were saying.
I think most people browse, therefore an A-Z system is the least confusing and the most likely to expose smaller books to people.
But going by the examples Eso & Kahuna set up, one would have to know that Robin is under "B" on the DC shelf and comic stores don't really have to worry about new readers being confused by this. They'll just "pick it up" at some point.
And yet somehow an A-Z organizing by title is just too much for people. Because the model that works work for film, magazine, books, music and videogames can't translate to comic books.
This is what they propose. I think it's rubbish.


I'm not against Alphabetically sorting. The inherent problem is expecting your nephew to know the X-Men book he is looking for is under A not X.
By keeping the X-books together, he can walk over to them, pick out the ones he was looking for, and be done with it.

Nope. I was being snarky.
No need to pretend shared continuity doesn't exists. But should a 9 year old know all this beforehand or be saddled by such division to the point of frustration? I say, nay.
The perceived impenetrability of comics turns people off. You may believe otherwise, and that's fine. I don't agree and think that less of a "club" atmosphere is ultimately healthier.
I'd actually argue that by making them alphabetic, you're making it much more "Clubby".
Where as we're suggesting that there should be groupings, making it easier to find characters/stories you're interested in. You're suggesting we make a person have pre-knowledge before buying a book.

[s1lentslayer]

Again, it has nothing to do with publisher. It's universe. The same way as all of the Star Wars characters exist in the same place, so do all DC characters. That's more important than the book actually saying DC.

I don't think you can compare the Star Wars Universe with Marvel/DC. Star Wars is much more mainstream and well-known. Plus it has the advantage of being a "long time ago". Don't most mainstream Marvel/DC comics take place in present day or at least near it? That makes it harder to differentiate the universes when they both are present-day to a newbie.

Going back to the original post, he just states that for newbies, sorting by publishers/universes is a hindrance. As a newbie myself, I agree. Once I get more familiar I probably won't care just like ya'll.

[kahunablair]

Going back to the original post, he just states that for newbies, sorting by publishers/universes is a hindrance. As a newbie myself, I agree. Once I get more familiar I probably won't care just like ya'll.

First off, welcome aboard!

Second, would having the books listed alphabetically be better? Would you know that the 4 different X-Men books had different titles, and where to look?
Or would it be easier to just see them all together?

[esophagus]

I don't think you can compare the Star Wars Universe with Marvel/DC. Star Wars is much more mainstream and well-known. Plus it has the advantage of being a "long time ago". Don't most mainstream Marvel/DC comics take place in present day or at least near it? That makes it harder to differentiate the universes when they both are present-day to a newbie.You're making my point for me. It's hard for someone new to know the difference between universes, so it'll be very confusing for them to pick up books from a bunch of different universes without knowning. Sorting by publisher assures that the books you are buying are taking place together.

[CAM!]

I really
My nephew loves Spider-Man, but he can't understand the concept that it's a Marvel book and Batman is a DC book. They are both superheroes to him. He sees no difference. When I tried to explain he literally put his hands on his face and said, "Forget it". I think that turns off more readers than Robin being under "R".
.

Weird, how old is your nephew? Compare it to McDonalds and Burger King, Batman is the whopper, Spidey is the Big Mac. THen he'll get it.

At my store they have the new comics primarily by alphabet. Then recent back issues alphabetically by company Marvel/DC and an extensive indie section that alternates company/writer spotlights.

It's not confusing to me at all, but for any new people the staff works hard to be exceptionally helpful.

Good old Beguiling. (of Chris Butcher fame, remember him? he hates zombie mary jane.)

[Dave Accampo]

I think the problem is exacerbated by the interconnectedness that DC and Marvel have in their universes right now.

for example, if Marvel only had Astonishing X-men, Runaways, Daredevil, Iron Fist, and....oh, I dunno, The Order...then those are all fairly self-contained series. Sure they're in continuity, but they can all be followed (at this time) without following anything else. It's easy for me to see those being racked purely alphabetically because someone can read just that series. But with all the cross-overs and continuity and so on and so forth, wow...I guess I'm just not confident that they are books that can easily stand on their own. Which is really too bad.

[Labor_Days]

Or should shops sort A-Z and then do a special rack for cross-overs (since they don't happen all the time)...?

Sure, I think this is fine. Music/book/periodical stores routinely do this as well as devote a few racks upfront to the "new thing" as it were. Comic shops could follow suit.

You're suggesting we make a person have pre-knowledge before buying a book.

See, I don't get where the "pre-knowledge" comes from anymore than knowing all the DC/Marvel Interconnectedness you propose.

It's not called Astonishing Mutants in Space; it's Astonishing X-men. A good clerk will steer people in the right direction when they need it.

Otherwise, I don't see a reasonable person browsing the racks being confused by a book with Wolverine or Cyclops on the front because it's in the "A" section.

I'd actually argue that by making them alphabetic, you're making it much more "Clubby".

I know that's what you're arguing. But obviously, I don't agree. :-D

There are a number of newbies who are actively saying, "yeah, it's a little confusing" in this thread!

The shared universe is great. But I don't think casual fans really care about that or need be concerned with it.

If you are an old pro, like us, you won't be confused that Robin is under "R". By ghettoizing books, you are only alienating new readers with such dross and limiting the number of eyeballs that might see a DMZ next to a mainstream title.

At my store they have the new comics primarily by alphabet. Then recent back issues alphabetically by company Marvel/DC and an extensive indie section that alternates company/writer spotlights.

Mine does the same. The staff are very helpful to newbies. They will get up from behind the counter and pull stuff you might be interested in. It's amazing how few retailers are willing to move from their perch to help someone.

God, I hate those places.

Weird, how old is your nephew? Compare it to McDonalds and Burger King, Batman is the whopper, Spidey is the Big Mac. Then he'll get it.

He doesn't understand how they exist in separate spaces or "universes". Kept asking if Spider-man is friends with Daredevil, how come Batman doesn't know Spider-man but The Flash knows Batman.

Basically it went like this...

Me: "Well, Batman & Spider-Man live on different worlds.
Nephew: What about the Hulk and Colossus?
Me: They live on the same world.
Nephew: With Spider-man?
Me: Yes.
Nephew: Then how come there are two Hulks and two Spider-mans?
Me: Uh, well...
Nephew: Could Superman beat the Hulk?
Me: ...yes.
Nephew: Then why don't they get Superman to stop the Hulk?
Me: Uh, different world...
Nephew: But if Flash and Wolverine fight the Hulk they could stop him from killing everyone.
Me: Flash doesn't know Wolverine or Hulk.
Nephew: But he knows Batman?!
Me: Yes...different worlds. Wolverine knows Hulk.
Nephew: *confusion*

It was frustrating. Partly because I don't know how to talk to kids and couldn't figure out a way to explain his mile-a-minute questions without blowing his mind.

[iSteve]

My own LCS organizes by publisher. But I was in another shop today that organizes alphabetically - there is no Marvel or DC sections. I can really say that it was a vast improvement.

[s1lentslayer]

You're making my point for me. It's hard for someone new to know the difference between universes, so it'll be very confusing for them to pick up books from a bunch of different universes without knowning. Sorting by publisher assures that the books you are buying are taking place together.

Actually you missed my point completely. My point is that newbies (like myself) don't know the universe therefore to sort by them is useless for said newbies. Not to mention, I doubt newbies care about said universe, they care about finding Spiderman and Superman. I know I don't.

[Labor_Days]

I don't know anyone with one-tenth the comic book knowledge of Steve. If he says A-Z is better, I believe it.

Word.

[Tad]

A kid is going to be turned off of this great medium of comics because the clerk sends him on a "treasure hunt for the 18 different Xmen books?"

No, the fact that there are 18 Xmen books with at least 3 different continuities will take care of that.

A new reader might ask for a specific and, hopefully be directed to that specific. Then he will do what we all did at first -- look at ALL the cool stuff in the racks. He may buy some Marvel, he may buy DC or Darkhorse. Maybe he'll only buy comics that had movies made of them. He'll read them, see that some have ads for other comics and the logo for the publisher and quickly get that there are different companies putting out comics.

And in a good store, questions will be answered by a cool clerk.

Conor is right that music and bookstores are alphabetical by genres - though NOT, I would point out, by publisher. That's why my store makes three divisions: Superheroes, non-superheroes, x-rated comics which are in a gated section. They make the decision on what goes where.

Granted, if you're in a rush and have to sprint into a store to get your comics, maybe having a Batman family section is important. But there's not that many superhero books that you can't find everything after a pleasant browse.

Oh, one more thing they do that is important: there are fluorescent pink tags labeled, "New this week" under the new books and pale blue "Last Week's issue" on the previous week's delivery. The pale blue ones are nice when you've skipped a week or somebody on iFanboy is raving about something you didn't pick up.

[itsbecca]

As I've said I prefer alphabetical, but I don't get the breaking up families thing. X-Men comics under X. Batman under B. In the same way that Countdown tie-ins are put in C. It's basic marketing too. If someone likes the Batman comic that means they probably like Batman, so putting Detective Comics adjacent says "Hello you might like me too!". If someone likes X-Men splitting them all over the store by their adjectives might mean a lost sale because the consumer might not know they all exist. And for someone who already buys them? It's just convenient.

Also, personally my mind puts Robing under R and Nightwing under N, because they're their own characters... but my world wouldn't be turned upside down if suddenly my LCS stuck them next to Batman.

[itsbecca]

Oh, one more thing they do that is important: there are fluorescent pink tags labeled, "New this week" under the new books and pale blue "Last Week's issue" on the previous week's delivery. The pale blue ones are nice when you've skipped a week or somebody on iFanboy is raving about something you didn't pick up.

This is crucial. Even though I have a pull list I still browse everything and spot out the "New" stickers to make sure I didn't miss anything, or to pick up a new mini that looks interesting. I wish my store did the last week thing too.

[esophagus]

Actually you missed my point completely. My point is that newbies (like myself) don't know the universe therefore to sort by them is useless for said newbies. Not to mention, I doubt newbies care about said universe, they care about finding Spiderman and Superman. I know I don't.
But that's because you are new. To gain any steady habit, or figure out the comics you're reading in any serious way, you will eventually need to figure the universes out It will be much easier to do so if it's all grouped together, than it would be if you had to go through the whole store to pick out the seperate universes.

[Tad]

To gain any steady habit, or figure out the comics you're reading in any serious way, you will eventually need to figure the universes out

If you read more than a couple of issues, you'll understand what comics go with what... and with the internet, you only need to google.

But seriously, we're talking the difference of a few feet to find the related comics. But to go back to the thread heading, sorta, I think it's great that searching is involved so that people are exposed to more comics! A kid who likes Batman may hate Robin and Nightwing because they're not about Batman. Or by poking around outside of the Batman section he'll see Robin on the cover of Teen Titans. And the guy who likes Batman might love Iron Fist. Browsing is a good thing.

For a comic fan who likes to try new stuff he hears about on the internet, alphabetical is the best. For the brand new kid, nothing beats a helpful employee.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Personally, I prefer my comics to be racked alphabetically by the inker's last name.

[itsbecca]

But to go back to the thread heading, sorta, I think it's great that searching is involved so that people are exposed to more comics! A kid who likes Batman may hate Robin and Nightwing because they're not about Batman. Or by poking around outside of the Batman section he'll see Robin on the cover of Teen Titans. And the guy who likes Batman might love Iron Fist. Browsing is a good thing.

That's a little backwards. Why not just hide the better selling comics? If they have to dig through a pile of Criminal to get a copy of Ultimate Spiderman they might just pick up both!

[esophagus]

Personally, I prefer my comics to be racked alphabetically by the inker's last name.My shop goes by the third letter of the letterer's mother's maiden name. It's fairly easy to figure out.

[kahunablair]

Or better yet. Force each person to buy the books we think they should be reading, and don't let them find the books they are actually looking for.

Personally, I prefer my comics to be racked alphabetically by the inker's last name.
I prefer alphabetically by their mother's maiden names.

[kahunablair]

OH I GOT IT!!

Color coding by costume!

[ConorKilpatrick]

Sometimes I go to this really avant garde shop that racks by the dominant color on the cover.

"Criminal #9? That's over in blue."

[esophagus]

If you read more than a couple of issues, you'll understand what comics go with what... and with the internet, you only need to google.

But seriously, we're talking the difference of a few feet to find the related comics. But to go back to the thread heading, sorta, I think it's great that searching is involved so that people are exposed to more comics! A kid who likes Batman may hate Robin and Nightwing because they're not about Batman. Or by poking around outside of the Batman section he'll see Robin on the cover of Teen Titans. And the guy who likes Batman might love Iron Fist. Browsing is a good thing.

For a comic fan who likes to try new stuff he hears about on the internet, alphabetical is the best. For the brand new kid, nothing beats a helpful employee.I think we can assume that anyone new to comics is going to browse the whole shop regardless. So sorting by publishers really doesn't hinder that at all, it's just going to help them understand what goes with what. We don't all have tunnel vision. Because an issue isn't right next to the one you're grabbing, doesn't mean you won't pick it up. If a person isn't willing to browse past the Batman section when things are arranged by publisher, I'm guessing they aren't willing to look at what's next to it when it's all alphabetical.

But it's all preference.

[itsbecca]

What defeatists you all are! Argue till death!!! (Personally I'd prefer if they would just throw all the issues into a large area to create a makeshift ball pit. You can swim around till you find your preferred titles.)

[ConorKilpatrick]

http://www.geocities.com/~jimlowe/barks/images/bin-dive.jpg

Replace Uncle Scrooge with Becca, and the money with comics.

[Tad]

That's a little backwards. Why not just hide the better selling comics? If they have to dig through a pile of Criminal to get a copy of Ultimate Spiderman they might just pick up both!

I spent a couple of years designing rides at Disney. Disney's various Magic Kingdom's are built on the "big weenie" rule. I guess it was Walt's term for a visual element that draws you into the park. The castle draws you down Main st. for example. (Of course, paying a trainload of money at the door is a decent incentive to exploring the whole park, weenies or no.


I've been to shops who separate all the new comics and put them in a single rack by publisher. That's very efficient. You walk in, pick up the new stuff and walk out without seeing any OGNs, special displays, restocks, etc. By having the new stuff spread throughout the rack, by publisher or not, you are forced to walk by all the comics. You're exposed to all those other covers and people who seem really interested in stuff you've never tried.

Every supermarket in America is designed on the principle. They don't want to be organized by the most popular stuff grouped together. They want you to have to meander. Impulse buys, baby!

If only he hadn't died.

[Tad]

Well, now that I've taught you the alternate meaning of "big weenie" we can call this thread educational and let it fade.

[ConorKilpatrick]

By having the new stuff spread throughout the rack, by publisher or not, you are forced to walk by all the comics. You're exposed to all those other covers and people who seem really interested in stuff you've never tried.

God, I hate those kinds of stores on Wednesdays! I don't have time to browse*!

* Born and bred New Yorker.

[itsbecca]

Replace Uncle Scrooge with Becca, and the money with comics.

Dream come true! Although you can keep some of the money in there...


I spent a couple of years designing rides at Disney. Disney's various Magic Kingdom's are built on the "big weenie" rule. I guess it was Walt's term for a visual element that draws you into the park. The castle draws you down Main st. for example. (Of course, paying a trainload of money at the door is a decent incentive to exploring the whole park, weenies or no.


I've been to shops who separate all the new comics and put them in a single rack by publisher. That's very efficient. You walk in, pick up the new stuff and walk out without seeing any OGNs, special displays, restocks, etc. By having the new stuff spread throughout the rack, by publisher or not, you are forced to walk by all the comics. You're exposed to all those other covers and people who seem really interested in stuff you've never tried.

Every supermarket in America is designed on the principle. They don't want to be organized by the most popular stuff grouped together. They want you to have to meander. Impulse buys, baby!

If only he hadn't died.

That is fair, although I think the grouping similar items strategy I mentioned earlier is just as valid for pushing product (Like a department store putting a display of spidey action figures next to the spidey pajamas). There's a lot of different takes a store owner can make. Like my store has a 99cent rack right next to the register to pump up readerships for new books. They cycle them out and it's worked to get me hooked on a few new titles already.

[Dave Accampo]

Y'know, it's funny...looking over all the responses, two common themes seem to be:

"A good shop owner will point it out"

and

"new customers will browse everything"

To me, that suggests that this whole argument of alphabetical or publisher-then-alphabetical isn't nearly as important as a GOOD display and a nice, friendly, comics shop owner.

After all, if the new customer wants to find Robin, it doesn't take the shop owner any more effort to say "ON the DC shelf (right over there) with all the Batman titles" than it does to say "ON the shelf under 'R'."

OK, so technically, it takes a little more effort, but as long as the comics shop owner is reasonably in shape he should be able to get out the few extra words. ;)

But a clean display, with SOME kind of ordering system that includes a clear indication of which books are BRAND NEW... that seems to be the most important thing.

I suppose it also depends on the size and space available in the store.

If I think of Meltdown comics on Sunset Blvd in LA (for those of you familiar), they've got new comics racked by publisher, but they're each cleanly displayed on their own shelves. It's fairly easy to browse from Marvel to DC, and it would be simple for the staff to point to the shelf containing Robin.

[Labor_Days]

It's fun seeing people argue for nonegalitarianism and ghettoization. So cute.

:D

[kahunablair]

That is fair, although I think the grouping similar items strategy I mentioned earlier is just as valid for pushing product (Like a department store putting a display of spidey action figures next to the spidey pajamas). There's a lot of different takes a store owner can make. Like my store has a 99cent rack right next to the register to pump up readerships for new books. They cycle them out and it's worked to get me hooked on a few new titles already.

I loved those $1 books near the counter. I also picked a few up. It's a brilliant idea.

[ConorKilpatrick]

It's fun seeing people argue for nonegalitarianism and ghettoization. So cute.

:D

Almost as much fun as watching some people ignore the reality of almost every major (and most minor) media retail outlet.

[kahunablair]

It's fun seeing people argue for nonegalitarianism and ghettoization. So cute.

:D

Dude, you know I love you right?
Chill out with the labeling. We all have different ideas, and trying to label someone as hating indies, is asinine and isn't really adding anything to the conversation.

[cormano]

Wow, I never thought about how complicated the organization at my shop is. It is partially out of necessity because it is the first floor of an old house, meaning there are five little rooms, rather than one big one. So it's split up like this:
Front room: This weeks books and recently restocked plus bargain bins.
Next room: Licensed, historical, educational, some Indies and kids books
Left room 1: Marvel and Image heroes
Left room 2: DC
Right room: Horror/Vertigo and trades

Plus then long boxes of back issues in pure alphabetical order around the perimeter of all of the rooms.

Also, in my own collection, I organize with Amazing Spider-Man in S, Uncanny X-Men in X, etc. and find it to be much more convenient.

[ConorKilpatrick]

The constant use of "ghettoizing" is starting to annoy me. Ghettoizing implies that it is being put into a negative place. When you put comics into categories, it's not negative. It's retail. It's how you help your customers find things they might like, whether you are selling comic books, novels, DVDs, CDs, or food.

When you go to the supermarket the food isn't all alphabetical, it's stocked by CATEGORY so that people know where to find things. I don't find Campbell's Soup under "C" I find it under "SOUP".

Grouping like-minded things together makes sense from a retail standpoint. If I like one thing, maybe I will also like this other thing that is also like it. It's true for comics, books, music, what have you. That's why retails stores tend to group things by category.

The funniest thing about all of this is I don't thing there is one right answer here. I think that each store has to make its own decisions on how to rack things that work best for their store. What works for one place might not work for another.

[esophagus]

It's fun seeing people argue for nonegalitarianism and ghettoization. So cute.

:DIt's so cute seeing someone try and place themselves on a pedestal above everyone in an argument about wther Robin should be next to Batman or Runaways. Jesus.

[Labor_Days]

Dude, you know I love you right?
Chill out with the labeling. We all have different ideas, and trying to label someone as hating indies, is asinine and isn't really adding anything to the conversation.
Oh come now. You know I was joking.

But that is basically what you are arguing. Insisting this is a easy to grasp system in lieu of the typical A-Z system. Despite the fact that many people do not find it the least bit logical; some are even posting in this thread.

You can have your A-Z by genre store wide system and have a rack or two for "new & notable".

That is how almost every major media retailer does it. And I don't see people intimidated by the impenetrability of their local bookstore or music shop.

But it's all mote. Comic shops are not going to stop catering to us fanboys as they continue their slow descent into irrelevance.

[Labor_Days]

Um guys, I put a smilie there. I wasn't being totally serious.

Seriously, lighten up. We're just talking comics.

[Dave Accampo]

Jesus.
Jesus? He's usually filed under "J" on the Christianity shelf, but he's got to be equally spread out among subsections for Catholics, Lutherans, Protestants, Mormons, Baptists, et al, or it'll cause all sorts of problems.


:D

[kahunablair]

Oh come now. You know I was joking.
Normally I'd say, ok. He was joking. The problem is you negate ever "JOKE" with this...
But that is basically what you are arguing. Insisting this is a easy to grasp system in lieu of the typical A-Z system. Despite the fact that many people do not find it the least bit logical; some are even posting in this thread.


Putting someone down, and then saying, "Hey, That was a joke!" really doesn't work a whole lot, my man.

[ConorKilpatrick]

You can have your A-Z by genre store wide system and have a rack or two for "new & notable".

Now you're taking the other side of the argument.

[kahunablair]

Jesus? He's usually filed under "J" on the Christianity shelf, but he's got to be equally spread out among subsections for Catholics, Lutherans, Protestants, Mormons, Baptists, et al, or it'll cause all sorts of problems.


:D

ACTUALLY, He's in the Religion section. Which is then broken down by different kind of religions.
You know, like a comic book store.. that does Publisher, Family of books, each title.

[Dave Accampo]

ACTUALLY, He's in the Religion section. Which is then broken down by different kind of religions.
You know, like a comic book store.. that does Publisher, Family of books, each title.

Religion = Publisher?

That's, like, a whole new thread...


;)

[kahunablair]

Religion = Publisher?

That's, like, a whole new thread...


;)

Haha. You brought it up.
I was merely using your example to show how we're all thinking.

[Labor_Days]

Putting someone down, and then saying, "Hey, That was a joke!" really doesn't work a whole lot, my man.

There was a little bit of snark in there, of course. I'm just that kind of fellow.

You seemed to take it a bit seriously though. So, I explained the quip. Honestly wasn't trying to put you down. That's crazy talk.

I am a fan of the Kahuna.

People are actively saying by publisher/family is an odd system and you're saying "no, it makes perfect sense". I don't understand what your crying foul about w/r/t labeling. No labeling. That is what you were saying. Or did I misread you?

Now you're taking the other side of the argument.

Not at all.

In post #46 (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showpost.php?p=234061&postcount=46) I admitted to not having a huge problem with genres (begrudgingly). Simply not in favor of the sort of hyper-specific genres of sorting (which someone was intimating at the time). But that's just my Anti-Rockism philosophical belief.

I concede a broad “genrefying” in the form of "Mystery", "Comedy", et cetera; is helpful for casual interests. A few times. In this thread.

I do believe pushing all the non-mainstream books to the margins is ultimately unhealthy for comics and the shops that peddle 'em. Nothing I said is really contradictory to that point. I was beating that drum as early as page 2 perhaps?

I'll quote myself...

I'm riffing on what Eso and Kahuna were saying.

I think most people browse, therefore an A-Z system is the least confusing and the most likely to expose smaller books to people.

But going by the examples Eso & Kahuna set up, one would have to know that Robin is under "B" on the DC shelf and comic stores don't really have to worry about new readers being confused by this. They'll just "pick it up" at some point.

And yet somehow an A-Z organizing by title is just too much for people. Because the model that works work for film, magazine, books, music and videogames can't translate to comic books.

This is what they propose. I think it's rubbish.

I feel like it's less daunting for someone browsing the racks to not worry about DC, Marvel or Dark Horse. It allows for a Suburban Glamour to be picked up alongside a Sub-Mariner or such.

[ConorKilpatrick]

I'll quote myself...

You just contradicted yourself in the same post.

This:

You can have your A-Z by genre store wide system and have a rack or two for "new & notable".

is the opposite of this:

I'm riffing on what Eso and Kahuna were saying.

I think most people browse, therefore an A-Z system is the least confusing and the most likely to expose smaller books to people.

But going by the examples Eso & Kahuna set up, one would have to know that Robin is under "B" on the DC shelf and comic stores don't really have to worry about new readers being confused by this. They'll just "pick it up" at some point.

And yet somehow an A-Z organizing by title is just too much for people. Because the model that works work for film, magazine, books, music and videogames can't translate to comic books.

This is what they propose. I think it's rubbish.

Also, as has been pointed out, this:

...an A-Z organizing by title is just too much for people. Because the model that works work for film, magazine, books, music and videogames can't translate to comic books.

is patently untrue.

[Labor_Days]

Nope, I said "your" A-Z system by genre. Meaning the genreying people wanted earlier. A compromise.

Not how I would prefer it myself and I don't do my long boxes that way. But do concede the utility of genre sorting in a shop.

[esophagus]

I figured I'd just state my opinion for the sake of it, as I see even I've started to sray from it.

I think publisher is the best way to go. This way no one thinks Spider-Man and Batman are existing together. In fact, I would probably go as far as to seperate universes within themselves. Giving Ultimate book there own side section to the Marvel shelf. Sorting books by hero within publishers makes sense. It's a bit convoluted, but in my opinion works better than A-Z. The same way that all Harry Potter books go together, I think it makes sense that all books taking place in the DCU belong together. Obviously, Harry Potter would be together because of author, but we don't have the luxury (in some cases) of one author when a world spans across 30+ titles. If they want to go to heroes within that, go for it, but it's probably a bit much. Where is the line drawn between who deserves a section of their own and who gets subcategorized. You could say multiple titles but we've already noted that Robin goes within Batman despite there being Robin and Titans. Anyway, yeah. Contradictory? A bit. But, oh well.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Nope, I said "your" A-Z system by genre. Meaning the genreying people wanted earlier. A compromise.

One way is sorting by genre/shared universe and the other is sorting A-Z. Those are not the same, in fact those are the two opposing sides in this long discussion.

[Labor_Days]

Um, no.

Dark Horse and Image are not a genre. They're publishers.

Sorting by publisher, imprint, arranged by realtionship and filed alphanumerically vs. A-Z filing by genre (as in mystery, true crime, etc) is the two opposing sides in this long discussion.

[Dave Accampo]

Um, no.

Dark Horse and Image are not a genre. They're publishers.

Sorting by publisher, imprint, arranged by realtionship and filed alphanumerically vs. A-Z filing by genre (as in mystery, true crime, etc) is the two opposing sides in this long discussion.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but...the way I interpret some of the comments here are that "genre" is one way of further breaking down the inventory while "publisher" is simply another. Thus, they're the same argument -- an arbitrary breakdown beyond the simple alphabetical.

"Genre" works well for books and music -- it's an accepted standard. As much as we might want it to be exactly the same, comics do have some differences, and as such "genre" may not be the best breakdown. Shared universes, a glut of super-hero comics, the importance of publishers to the serious fan -- all of this makes the comics retailer a different animal. So rather than "genre," "publisher" makes a sort of sense (in some cases -- it's not a universal).

Bookstores make the same sort of arbitrary calls, after all. Sci-fi and Fantasy are routinely grouped together, sometimes including Horror. But never with Romance.

And let's be fair -- the bookstore also faces odd instances. I've seen Jonathan Lethem shelved in mystery (Motherless Brooklyn), Sci-Fi (Gun, With Occasional Music) and Literary Fiction (Fortress of Solitude). So, if someone likes one Lethem book, and they want more...where do they look? Ideally, it's just like the clerk at the comics shop -- someone at the store knows where to send them. Or, they have a computer system that allows you to look up Lethem and find all his books in the different sections they're in.

[Labor_Days]

Yeah, I get what you and Conor are saying. But I was using "genre" for it's utility.

I don't find much utility in a Dark Horse, Oni or Marvel section as shorthand for an identifiable genre such as Mystery or Sci-fi.*


*See, that's why I don't like genres in the abstract; and that's not limited to comics...but whatever. Your typical genre labels are easily recognizable. Let's go with those, if only in the broadest sense.

[esophagus]

Yeah, I get what you and Conor are saying. But I was using "genre" for it's utility.

I don't find much utility in a Dark Horse, Oni or Marvel section as shorthand for an identifiable genre such as Mystery or Sci-fi.*


*See, that's why I don't like genres in the abstract; and that's not limited to comics...but whatever. Your typical genre labels are easily recognizable. Let's go with those, if only in the broadest sense.
You realize almost all major comics cross genres. There's obvious crimes going on, they almost always have some mystery to solve, and there's always a sci-fi element to it. Where do you put a book like Superman?

[Labor_Days]

You realize almost all major comics cross genres. There's obvious crimes going on, they almost always have some mystery to solve, and there's always a sci-fi element to it. Where do you put a book like Superman?

Under the Adventure category.

One can make the same argument w/r/t to Ween. But you don't find them in the Opera/Country/Comedy/Stoner-Rocker section, you find them in the broadly labeled, Rock/Pop section.

[esophagus]

Under the Adventure category.

One can make the same argument w/r/t to Ween. But you don't find them in the Opera/Country/Comedy/Stoner-Rocker section, you find them in the broadly labeled, Rock/Pop section.Dont you hate going into a record store and seeing that almost everything is rock/pop? That's going to be your comic shop. I can't think of many comics I've read I wouldn't consider to be "adventure" in some way or another. To genre label any mainstream comic you're really going to need to get super-specific with labels.

[Labor_Days]

Dont you hate going into a record store and seeing that almost everything is rock/pop?
That's why I was so ambivalent about just saying "ok, do it by genre if you'd like" earlier.

Dave is right. Book & music stores fudge things up all the time. But I feel it's more logical than cannibalizing hyper-specificity (I mentioned this on page 3-4) or the Byzantine system of Publisher/imprint -> relation -> A-Z, 'learn-it-for-yourself' system.

Those broadly applied genre labels work for a reason. In that generally speaking, Ween are more akin to Rock than middle period Baroque. So too, wanting fun superhero action is closer to wanting an Action/Adventure book.


edit: Sorry didn't answer your question.

No Eso, it doesn't really bother me that all the music is in the Rock/Pop section. Because I don't look for early 90's Dream-Pop when wanting an AR Kane record. I look under Rock/Pop music (for that is what it is at the core), under the "A" section. Ohh, lookie! A first pressing!

[s1lentslayer]

Anything other than A-Z will be subjective and have potential for confusion. With A-Z you only need to decide if your system will be straight A-Z or a modified version based on the primary content (Uncanny X-Men under "U" vs "X").

I prefer organizing by the continent the trees used to make the paper came from.

[Diabhol]

If I think of Meltdown comics on Sunset Blvd in LA (for those of you familiar), they've got new comics racked by publisher, but they're each cleanly displayed on their own shelves. It's fairly easy to browse from Marvel to DC, and it would be simple for the staff to point to the shelf containing Robin.

I noticed that when I was over there on Halloween (my first trip, actually) and while I like the shelves (better than having to squeeze by those narrow alleys at Golden Apple), I don't see much point in organizing by publisher. I prefer just organizing alphabetically by title.

Is Meltdown your regular store?

[Dave Accampo]

Is Meltdown your regular store?
Nah, it's not in any regular route of mine, so I don't get there all that often. I just think it's a good example of a well-organized store.

[Diabhol]

Nah, it's not in any regular route of mine, so I don't get there all that often. I just think it's a good example of a well-organized store.

So what is your regular store? As a fellow L.A. native, I'm curious. :)

[CAM!]

I gotta throw in some cents here, hmmmm, I've got about two...

It seems people are arguing a whole lot of different points, one which is bothering me is the assumption that new readers are mental infants.

The reality of the comics industry is that there are 2 major publishers Marvel and DC right. Does it not make the most sense to have the books alphabetically within those two categories? A couple of times people have argued that the shared univers is too confusing, but how would mixing DC and Marvel books together make figuring that out easier on new readers?

Let's assume you REALLY don't know anything about comics. You walk into a store and all the books are labled either DC or Marvel, you buy three of each and read them, and say to yourself oh hey, these three I got from under that one sign seem to be related and I liked them. These other three? not so much. When I go back I will look into more (insert company here) books.

But of course that leaves out indies and divisions within the company. I know I know.

I guess my point is we seem to be assuming that new readers are stupid, but we were all new readers once, eventually I figured out that Superman can punch Batman, but not Spiderman or Thor (with the exception of JLA/Avengers, heehee).

Hmmm maybe closer to 5 cents.

[xyzzy]

Anything other than A-Z will be subjective and have potential for confusion. With A-Z you only need to decide if your system will be straight A-Z or a modified version based on the primary content (Uncanny X-Men under "U" vs "X").


I think that you're just in denial of reality. I can't think of any major media retail outlet that organizes their material in the way you describe.

[xyzzy]

You realize almost all major comics cross genres. There's obvious crimes going on, they almost always have some mystery to solve, and there's always a sci-fi element to it. Where do you put a book like Superman?

The same could be said of prose books, but somehow they figure it out. Sometimes, I've have to check in multiple sections. Somehow I survived, as did the store.

There's a system that nobody tells you, that you figure out over time. Nobody complains about this.

If I'm looking for a book that's a science fiction murder mystery, I know that in 99% of stores, it's going to be in the science fiction/fantasy section, not the mystery section. I don't know why. But if there are any sci-fi elements, that seems to override any other theme. Absurdist fiction, on the other hand, generally goes in the fiction section, not fantasy, though there's no real explanation for that. Many books with mystery themes will go in the fiction section, depending on the nature of the mystery and the degree to which it dominates the book. This division differs from store to store. Sometimes Bill Bryson is in travel, sometimes he's in non-fiction. You just figure these things out.

[Dave Accampo]

So what is your regular store? As a fellow L.A. native, I'm curious. :)

Heh...I answered this in the new Pull List thread, as it seemed more appropriate there. :)

[Labor_Days]

I think that you're just in denial of reality. I can't think of any major media retail outlet that organizes their material in the way you describe.

You're right they do so by genre, A-Z. With special interest within those genres, your Star Wars for example, arranged by title A-Z as that is more likely to stay consistent than author.

Music is also arranged by parent genre, A-Z. So that If you'd like a Throwing Muses record you can look under "T", not 4AD. Often record stores have spinner racks and/or sections dedicated to spotlight certain interest. Such that a fan of Saves The Day may see an Alkaline Trio record as well.

Such a logical system. Unless people regularly walk into stores and say, "Where is the Sub-Pop section" or "Where can I find Ballantine books"?

[xyzzy]

You're right they do so by genre, A-Z. With special interest within those genres, your Star Wars for example, arranged by title A-Z as that is more likely to stay consistent than author.

Music is also arranged by parent genre, A-Z. So that If you'd like a Throwing Muses record you can look under "T", not 4AD. Often record stores have spinner racks and/or sections dedicated to spotlight certain interest. Such that a fan of Saves The Day may see an Alkaline Trio record as well.

Such a logical system. Unless people regularly walk into stores and say, "Where is the Sub-Pop section" or "Where can I find Ballantine books"?

So, wait. Do you object to grouping shared universe books together or not? Because that's the reason that Marvel and DC books are grouped together, for the most part. Not just because they're the publisher, but because the books they publish are in a shared universe.

Also, even within Star Wars books, you'll often see they grouped by series (like the New Jedi Order books), even though those books have different authors because they have a continuity connection.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Such a logical system. Unless people regularly walk into stores and say, "Where is the Sub-Pop section" or "Where can I find Ballantine books"?

You can't apply strict comparisons like that, every type of media is different. For books, one system works (pure genre), for comics, another system works (publisher). It's all the same SYSTEM, with different LABELS.

And yes, I have been in music stores that have had sections based on label, most notably Rhino Records.

[Labor_Days]

So, wait. Do you object to grouping shared universe books together or not? Because that's the reason that Marvel and DC books are grouped together, for the most part. Not just because they're the publisher, but because the books they publish are in a shared universe.

Also, even within Star Wars books, you'll often see they grouped by series (like the New Jedi Order books), even though those books have different authors because they have a continuity connection.

I do object.

I prefer a flat out A-Z system with spinner racks/sections for the new & notable, myself. But am willing to concede some genreying if that helps people further.

It's not true that retailers organize their media solely in the way you claim or even that that is the dominant organization within those stores. Comparing comic Publishers to widely understood genre labels is the real apple-to-oranges debate here. Dark Horse, ASP and Oni are not a genre.

We may not see that big a deal because we are dyed in the wool. But I can't count the number of times casual fans have said to me they don't know who/what DC or Marvel is; they just know Batman or Spider-Man. And there are new readers telling us, "this is an odd system". Which I think counts for something.

I contend that casual readers shouldn't have to know anything more than that they want a Batman comic book. The shared universe is there and that's fine. That can promoted without hierarchal grouping while taking an egalitarian approach on the racks.

It seems to me completely backwards that one would posit a system whereby a casual reader must know the publisher (i.e. shared universe) of the book he'd like to read and then look under that title's related books to get the comic he wants. And that this is less inside baseball than A-Z.

And yes, I have been in music stores that have had sections based on label, most notably Rhino Records.

Sure. But they also categorize by genre; Country, Classical, Rock, et cetera. One is much more likely to be familiar with an A-Z system either by artist or title.

I am not confused by shopping at the Virgin record store in NYC anymore than the one in L.A., no? Logical consistency.

[Labor_Days]

Wait, let me say that I also totally understand why you guys like the by publisher system. And that is the way most comic shops do it, in my experience.

Eso, gave a very good and succinct reason as to why that works on page 1. Personally, I just don't care for the system and don't think it does anyone other than the converted any good. That's my position.

I don't want to sound like I'm calling you guys fools for thinking otherwise or preferring one method over another. Different strokes and all.

As it stand it's two modalities of thought...

Group A says;

- Comic books shouldn't adhere to the same sorting methods of other media

- Comics should be sorted by publisher and/or imprint

- Comics within each publisher's section, need be arranged by relationship to other comics from said publisher

- Everything else falls under the "other" category

- Non-mainstream (i.e. not DC or Marvel) titles are not marginalization by this system

- This is an intuitive method of organization by which any person can find a title that begins in R under the "B" section within each publisher's respective section

- Comic shop owners can't really worry about new readers being confused by this because casual readers have to learn at some point

- This system is less "clubby" and healthy for comic shoppes


Group B (mostly just me) says;

- Comics are not really all that different from magazines, records or DVDs, et cetera

- Comics should be arranged by title or genre, alphanumerically

- A section or rack featuring new and/or notable books can draw attention to...new & notable material, the latest event, etc

- This method allows titles equal space for eyeballs without placing the burden of publisher or continuity on casual readers

- This system is similar to that used by other retailers which casual readers are more likely to be familiar with

- This system is less daunting for casual readers and healthier for comic shoppes



That's about the long and short of it, no?

[ConorKilpatrick]

I do object.

I prefer a flat out A-Z system with spinner racks/sections for the new & notable, myself. But am willing to concede some genreying if that helps people further.

It's not true that retailers organize their media solely in the way you claim or even that that is the dominant organization within those stores. Comparing comic Publishers to widely understood genre labels is the real apple-to-oranges debate here. Dark Horse, ASP and Oni are not a genre.

We may not see that big a deal because we are dyed in the wool. But I can't count the number of times casual fans have said to me they don't know who/what DC or Marvel is; they just know Batman or Spider-Man. And there are new readers telling us, "this is an odd system". Which I think counts for something.

I contend that casual readers shouldn't have to know anything more than that they want a Batman comic book. The shared universe is there and that's fine. That can promoted without hierarchal grouping while taking an egalitarian approach on the racks.

It seems to me completely backwards that one would posit a system whereby a casual reader must know the publisher (i.e. shared universe) of the book he'd like to read and then look under that title's related books to get the comic he wants. And that this is less inside baseball than A-Z.

I think you're getting hung up on the word "genre". What really should be said is "category." Everything is organized by category. For some products it is by genre, for some it is by type, for some it is by company.

But everything is organized somehow.

Of the 5 stores I frequent, 4 organize by company and 1 by A-Z (except for things like Batman, Superman, X-Men and other families of books). And not a single one of the 4 stores labels their shelves. It's not like New Comic Book Reader looking for a Batman book has to find the DC shelf. New Comic Boon Reader just has to find the Batman book on the DC shelf. New Comic Book Reader won't know it's the DC shelf, but if they stick around they will eventually. A shelf is a shelf is a shelf.

I would posit it's easier for New Comic Book Reader to find the Batman book in a store where books are shelved by genre, because - in my experience* - it's far less real estate to cover. Two, maybe three shelves to look in as opposed to an entire store's worth of shelves.

And New Comic Book Reader might just find that there are other comics featuring Batman not called Batman because they will be right there too.

* In the one store that is shelved A-Z new books are spread out throughout the eniter store, in the other stores, there are specific new book areas.

[ConorKilpatrick]

That's about the long and short of it, no?

Wow, that's completely wrong.

Comics are racked like other media. They are racked into categories. It's just that those categories are not exactly the same as they are in other media because comics are not DVDs or books or CDs. Every product has a different system because every product is different, but they all have a system. The system is the same, but not the labels.

[Labor_Days]

I think you're getting hung up on the word "genre". What really should be said is "category." Everything is organized by category. For some products it is by genre, for some it is by type, for some it is by company.

But everything is organized somehow.

But is that helpful when I look at the Oni section?

Would it not be more useful to have Criminal, Fell, The Killer, et cetera, in a Crime Noir section*; rather than an ASP, Image, Icon section?

When I say genre, I mean something that can be identified. I may not know what Oni is but I what know of Horror and Action as commonly applied.

Not so convinced By Publisher provides that shorthand in the same manner to the casual reader.

*Let's ignore the hair splitting w/r/t genreying. Think broadly least we file Schindler's List under Drama-WWII-Biopic-Jewish Studies section of our video store and Ween in every music category sans hip-hop.

Wow, that's completely wrong.
I paraphrased what you guys were saying in this thread. It's not wrong. It's exactly what you dudes said.

Do you want direct quotes?

[Dave Accampo]

I don't want to sound like I'm calling you guys fools for thinking otherwise or preferring one method over another. Different strokes and all.

As it stand it's two modalities of thought...

I would just clarify that for me -- and this is me musing about this over the course of this conversation -- it's more like this:


- Comic books shouldn't necessarily adhere to the same sorting methods of other media (most commonly genre)

- Comics may be best organized when sorted by publisher and/or imprint, but it is up to the individual retailer to decide what works best for him/her.

I think that publisher sorting may still work better for comics because of publishing strategies AND fans. And I don't think newcomers will have a hard time recognizing the alphabetical system under a publisher category system because they'll likely be browsing everything (or asking for something specific).

Lastly, I just want to re-state that the shop owner and the overall shop organization is more important than whether the shelves are organized by genre or publisher.

I think that would sum up my position.

[xyzzy]

Do you want direct quotes?

I dare you to attribute any of the points you raised to anything that I've written in this thread.

[ConorKilpatrick]

I paraphrased what you guys were saying in this thread. It's not wrong. It's exactly what you dudes said.

Do you want direct quotes?

No, I already said why it's wrong.

Here it is again:

Comics are racked like other media. They are racked into categories. It's just that those categories are not exactly the same as they are in other media because comics are not DVDs or books or CDs. Every product has a different system because every product is different, but they all have a system. The system is the same, but not the labels.

[esophagus]

I've given up on this thread as there seems to be no way to get a valid point across. I do want to say this much though...


- Comic books shouldn't adhere to the same sorting methods of other media
- Comics should be sorted by publisher and/or imprintSomething is being lost in translation. Books are arranged by author, and movies are arranged by title. Despite this difference you would call their organization similar, no? That's because they're both using fitting labels for the system that works best. Comics just happens to be publisher. If you'd like to start an adventure section and put all of DC within it, have fun. I'm just sayign that a shared universe deserves a shared space, the same as the way it works with books. Whether the label is genre or publisher they're both being organized. One coin. Two sides. We're not arguing which "sorting method" is correct. They're the same. We're arguing which stab at that same method would best fit comics.
- Comics within each publisher's section, need be arranged by relationship to other comics from said publisherNot always to the extent that yous eem to be going at. Robin doesn't need to be next to Batman in my head. There's multiple opinions floating around here.

- Everything else falls under the "other" category
- Non-mainstream (i.e. not DC or Marvel) titles are not marginalization by this systemHere's when new sorting comes into play. A bookstore has fiction, horror, mystery, etc. but within sci-fi they probably have a Star Wars rack. Marvel and DC and any other shared universe (not necessarily one publisher, look at Transformers, its been passed around) should be lumped together like that. If you have a ton of indie books, but not enough of each for a rack, or not enough that are set within one contained world, feel free to rack true-crime with true-crime.

- This is an intuitive method of organization by which any person can find a title that begins in R under the "B" section within each publisher's respective sectionAlmost as intuitive as knowing which DC books are and arent adventurous?

- Comic shop owners can't really worry about new readers being confused by this because casual readers have to learn at some pointThat's a dumb ****ing argument. You don't make cars assuming it's going to be the drivers first time driving.

Stop saying you arent being critical, and then criticizing an argument.

I'm out.

[xyzzy]

Wait, let me say that I also totally understand why you guys like the by publisher system. And that is the way most comic shops do it, in my experience.

Eso, gave a very good and succinct reason as to why that works on page 1. Personally, I just don't care for the system and don't think it does anyone other than the converted any good. That's my position.

I don't want to sound like I'm calling you guys fools for thinking otherwise or preferring one method over another. Different strokes and all.

As it stand it's two modalities of thought...

Group A says;

- Comic books shouldn't adhere to the same sorting methods of other media

No form of media should organize based on how other forms of media organize. It would be weird to go into a book store and have the books organized by title. That's pretty standard for video stores, however. Is one right? Is the other wrong? Or do they just pick the organizational scheme that works best for them?

- Comics should be sorted by publisher and/or imprint

No. I think that they should be sorted by subject.

- Comics within each publisher's section, need be arranged by relationship to other comics from said publisher

Yes. Books with shared universes should be grouped together.

- Everything else falls under the "other" category

I don't know what this means.

- Non-mainstream (i.e. not DC or Marvel) titles are not marginalization by this system

I'm not sure what "system" this is referring to, so I cannot agree with it.

- This is an intuitive method of organization by which any person can find a title that begins in R under the "B" section within each publisher's respective section

There's nothing particularly intuitive about it. That said, it's not any less intuitive than any other organizational method.

- Comic shop owners can't really worry about new readers being confused by this because casual readers have to learn at some point

To some extent, this is true. Any system needs to be learned.

- This system is less "clubby" and healthy for comic shoppes

I don't know what this means.


Group B (mostly just me) says;

- Comics are not really all that different from magazines, records or DVDs, et cetera

I agree.

- Comics should be arranged by title or genre, alphanumerically

Genre, fine. Straight alphabet is something I've never seen any store do ever.

- A section or rack featuring new and/or notable books can draw attention to...new & notable material, the latest event, etc

I agree.

- This method allows titles equal space for eyeballs without placing the burden of publisher or continuity on casual readers

There's no real burden in categorization.

- This system is similar to that used by other retailers which casual readers are more likely to be familiar with

Again, I've never seen any store do straight alphabetical ever.

- This system is less daunting for casual readers and healthier for comic shoppes

I think most casual readers would be expecting a subject based categorization system, like most stores have.

- That's about the long and short of it, no?

No.

[esophagus]

Xyzzy you realize that you basically just told him he was right? You disagreed with most all of what he disagrees with, and agreed with his side. Not that he is in any way wrong, it just seemed like you might have gone into that thinking the entire thing was his opinion.

[xyzzy]

Xyzzy you realize that you basically just told him he was right? You disagreed with most all of what he disagrees with, and agreed with his side. Not that he is in any way wrong, it just seemed like you might have gone into that thinking the entire thing was his opinion.

But I don't agree with him. I think that any store needs to be organized. Generally, I prefer a subject based organization. In that, however, DC and Marvel are grouped together because they go in the category of "Superhero comics" and are grouped under publisher within that due to the shared universe aspect.

It's the advocating for straight alphabetical organization and objecting to any sort of organizational scheme that might put DC or Marvel books together that I think is cock-eyed.

Further the idea that it's somehow daunting for people to find books in such a system is something I'm not convinced of. If it takes more than a minute or two to find a Batman book, either the person looking a moron or the store's got other problems (like bad signage).

[CAM!]

Well here's my rundown of Labor's rundown:

Group A:

Everyone else's stupid ideas, towards which I shall be patronizing.

Group B (Me):

Awesome greatness.

That about covers it right?

;)

[Dave Accampo]

But I don't agree with him. I think that any store needs to be organized. Generally, I prefer a subject based organization. In that, however, DC and Marvel are grouped together because they go in the category of "Superhero comics" and are grouped under publisher within that due to the shared universe aspect.

If I'm not mistaken, that's also what Labor was arguing. He's calling it "genre", while you're calling it "subject matter." He's saying THAT's OK, but organizing by Publisher is bad.

Labor, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...

[Dave Accampo]

Well here's my rundown of Labor's rundown:

Group A:

Everyone else's stupid ideas, towards which I shall be patronizing.

Group B (Me):

Awesome greatness.

That about covers it right?

;)

Damn! Now I wanna be on the "Awesome Greatness" side!

[xyzzy]

If I'm not mistaken, that's also what Labor was arguing. He's calling it "genre", while you're calling it "subject matter." He's saying THAT's OK, but organizing by Publisher is bad.

Labor, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...

I do think that there's no real purpose served to organize every comic by publisher. I mean, there's no real common theme to Top Shelf books or First Second books, so there's no real reason to keep them together.

However, as I've said, DCU and MU books share a common thread of a shared universe and therefore should be grouped together, just as you would group Star Wars books together. Or Dragonlance books. Or any sort of shared universe. This is where I disagree with Labor, who apparently thinks that this is horribly confusing.

[Labor_Days]

Stop saying you arent being critical, and then criticizing an argument.
Come again now?

Never said I wasn't being critical. I said- I understood where you dudes were coming from and don't agree.

I am critical. I think By Publisher as substitute/tantamount for/to Mystery or Adventure as understood in the vulgar is rubbish.

That's the critique.

[Labor_Days]

Well here's my rundown of Labor's rundown:

Group A:

Everyone else's stupid ideas, towards which I shall be patronizing.

Group B (Me):

Awesome greatness.

That about covers it right?

Group B wasn't all me. But I took responsibility for it. Not wanting to misuse any one else's quotes. And the board wouldn't let me repost all their other quotes anyway! ;-)

He's calling it "genre", while you're calling it "subject matter." He's saying THAT's OK, but organizing by Publisher is bad.

Bingo. I know what Mystery means in an organizational context. I don't know what Oni or Dark Horse means in an organizational context.*

*Well, I do now. But let's assume I never been in a comic book shop before.

Or any sort of shared universe. This is where I disagree with Labor, who apparently thinks that this is horribly confusing.

Nah. Special sections are cool.

The entire shop shouldn't be set up that way though.

[esophagus]

Come again now?

Never said I wasn't being critical. I said- I understood where you dudes were coming from and don't agree.

I am critical. I think By Publisher as substitute/tantamount for/to Mystery or Adventure as understood in the vulgar is rubbish.

That's the critique.Maybe I misworded then but, in my opinion, this:I don't want to sound like I'm calling you guys fools for thinking otherwise or preferring one method over another. Different strokes and all.and this:- Comic books shouldn't adhere to the same sorting methods of other media
- Comics should be sorted by publisher and/or imprint
- Comics within each publisher's section, need be arranged by relationship to other comics from said publisher
- Everything else falls under the "other" category
- Non-mainstream (i.e. not DC or Marvel) titles are not marginalization by this system
- This is an intuitive method of organization by which any person can find a title that begins in R under the "B" section within each publisher's respective section
- Comic shop owners can't really worry about new readers being confused by this because casual readers have to learn at some point
- This system is less "clubby" and healthy for comic shoppesare saying two totally opposite things.

[s1lentslayer]

I believe he's saying organizing by genre would be better than publisher/universe for newbies and I definitely agree with that.

[esophagus]

I believe he's saying organizing by genre would be better than publisher/universe for newbiesOooooh. Now I get it. :rolleyes:

[Labor_Days]

Maybe I misworded then but, in my opinion, this:

Sure. You can't disagree with someone while respecting them as people? I've not lost respect for anyone because I don't agree with their position or ideas.*

*Barring sociopaths and such, natch. :-)

are saying two totally opposite things.

I didn't say those things. I summarized what you guys were saying.

Should I do direct quotes for clarity? I'll do it if you think it necessary.

[esophagus]

Sure. You can't disagree with someone while respecting them as people? I've not lost respect for anyone because I don't agree with their position or ideas.*

*Barring sociopaths and such, natch. :-)



I didn't say those things. I summarized what you guys were saying.

Should I do direct quotes for clarity? I'll do it if you think it necessary."I don't think you're stupid, just everything you're saying."

Oh. Okay. That's better.

Edit: I should mention I've lost no respect for you either. At this point I don't even care who's right or wrong, I just want you to realize you're not coming across so well at the moment.

[Labor_Days]

"I don't think you're stupid, just everything you're saying."

Oh. Okay. That's better.

Edit: I should mention I've lost no respect for you either. At this point I don't even care who's right or wrong, I just want you to realize you're not coming across so well at the moment.

Response here (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showpost.php?p=234889&postcount=168).

[xyzzy]

I didn't say those things. I summarized what you guys were saying.

Should I do direct quotes for clarity? I'll do it if you think it necessary.

You erected a giant straw man and then knocked it down.

[Labor_Days]

Sigh for dudes that don't want to read through the thread...direct quotes.


Group A says;

Comic books shouldn't adhere to the same sorting methods of other media

I think that you're just in denial of reality. I can't think of any major media retail outlet that organizes their material in the way you describe.


- Comics should be sorted by publisher and/or imprint

Comics within each publisher's section, need be arranged by relationship to other comics from said publisher

In fact, I would probably go as far as to seperate universes within themselves. Giving Ultimate book there own side section to the Marvel shelf. Sorting books by hero within publishers makes sense. It's a bit convoluted, but in my opinion works better than A-Z.

- Everything else falls under the "other" category

Non-mainstream (i.e. not DC or Marvel) titles are not marginalization by this system

Sure, it would be good to have an organization of title within publisher (which a lot of places do), but I don't think picking up an issue of Countdown and DMZ is what a lot of new people need.

- This is an intuitive method of organization by which any person can find a title that begins in R under the "B" section within each publisher's respective section

I would think X-titles would go together with other X-titles (just alphabetized within subcategories so that Astonishing would be before Uncanny)

Comic shop owners can't really worry about new readers being confused by this because casual readers have to learn at some point

There's a system that nobody tells you, that you figure out over time. Nobody complains about this.

Comic shops really can't start organizing just in case people start getting non-comic readers to shop for them. Anyone new to comics is more than likely going to make rounds of the whole shop anyways. They can figure it out.

- This system is less "clubby" and healthy for comic shoppes

I'd actually argue that by making them alphabetic, you're making it much more "Clubby".
Where as we're suggesting that there should be groupings, making it easier to find characters/stories you're interested in.

[esophagus]

No ones arguing with that, at least not me. What I'm arguing with is your phrasing, and the fact that you're lumping every opinion but yours into the "opposing side".

[xyzzy]

Taking my statements out of context and then misconstruing them doesn't really make a very good point. Further, don't ascribe to me the arguments that other people make.

[Labor_Days]

Taking my statements out of context and then misconstruing them doesn't really make a very good point.

I did not misconstrued your statements. I matched them up with the prevailing arguments I felt you were making.

Not enough character space to quote them all and the forum doesn't allow for hierarchal quoting. Otherwise, I would have quoted relevant post/response in entirety.

Still anyone following the thread understands the context in which we are speaking.

You can clarify further if you want.

What I'm arguing with is your phrasing, and the fact that you're lumping every opinion but yours into the "opposing side".

Indeed. They are opposing views. Group A is not the one I identify with.

There are pro-B posts...

Group B (mostly just me but few other people) says;

?-Comics are not really all that different from magazines, records or DVDs, et cetera

Is there anything other than comic books whose primary sorting is by publisher? Not books, magazines, dvds, ... ? Their models all seem to be doing pretty well where it seems like comics could use some help.

?Comics should be arranged by title or genre, alphanumerically

But I was in another shop today that organizes alphabetically - there is no Marvel or DC sections. I can really say that it was a vast improvement.

As a "new" reader, I would prefer alphabetical and my second choice would be "genre". The last choice would be publisher.

?A section or rack featuring new and/or notable books can draw attention to...new & notable material, the latest event, etc

?This method allows titles equal space for eyeballs without placing the burden of publisher or continuity on casual readers

As far as publishers I think it would actually be a turn off to new people. Say I'm getting into comics and I just saw the new Spiderman movie. I might not know marvel, but I can definitley sound out... S... Spiderman. Plus, publisher sorting usually means DC, Marvel and then the INDIE section. Maybe Image and Darkhorse get a plaque. MAYBE.

- This system is similar to that used by other retailers which casual readers are more likely to be familiar with

My other shop orders just about everything that's published. All periodicals are sorted alphabetically, publishers intermixed. BUT one wall is superhero stuff. The other wall is everything that's not, even if it's published by one of the big two. All graphic novels are sorted alphabetically by title.

All I can say is that there's never been a problem with finding anything. It all seems intuitive.

I don't see much point in organizing by publisher. I prefer just organizing alphabetically by title.


?This system is less daunting for casual readers and healthier for comic shoppes
?
My comic shop goes by the publisher as well and it annoys me.

[kahunablair]

Clearly I'm done with this thread, mainly because it seems to turn into a
"My way is right, because I say so, and the way I'll debate against your stance or criticism is by putting them down."

But I just have to say that CAM!'s comment...
Well here's my rundown of Labor's rundown:
Group A:
Everyone else's stupid ideas, towards which I shall be patronizing.
Group B (Me):
Awesome greatness.
That about covers it right?
;)

is Brilliant! Nicely done, sir.

[CAM!]

THanks Kahuna, I was trying to bring some levity.

No offense Labor, hope I didn't offend.

[xyzzy]

I did not misconstrued your statements. I matched them up with the prevailing arguments I felt you were making.


How does "I can't think of any major media retail outlet that organizes their material in the way you describe." equate to ""Comic books shouldn't adhere to the same sorting methods of other media"?

My statement explicitly states that other retailers do not use a straight alphabetical system and neither should comic book stores. Indicating that comic book stores should be similar to other retail outlets. But somehow, you get out of that the exact opposite.

[Dave Accampo]

Indeed. They are opposing views. Group A is not the one I identify with.

I appreciate your diligence in the argument, Labor.

My only problem is that you've listed Group A with a language that connotes that things SHOULD be done a certain way.

However, that's not the original argument. The original statement was: "Comic book shops that sort by publisher are part of the problem."

I come down AGAINST that statement simply because I don't believe that sorting by publisher is "part of the problem." That's the only universal in Group A's stance.

I, however, do NOT think that sorting by publisher is a universal, and that all comic shops should sort by publisher. I DO see a LOGIC to that categorization, and I can see it working for a couple of reasons:

- Publishers have tightened the reins on the shared universe concept.
- Fans often perceive a difference between styles and universes

The shared universe concept is such that any given cover of a Marvel comic could have multiple heroes from other books on it. Thus, a shelf of Marvel books may draw someone that likes Wolverine, and they may then cast around and find other books with a similar style. This is, of course, predicated on the idea that there is a difference between Marvel's characters and styles and other publishers characters and styles.

I'd personally have a shelf that's DC/Vertigo, a shelf that's DC, a shelf that's Marvel, a shelf that has indies. There is enough of a difference in each of those that the categories make sense to me. Like Conor said: everyone develops the labels for their categories. In comics, Marvel and Dc are SO dominate, that putting them on their own shelves actually helps to show off their brand, and it keeps the indies from being swallowed up in a sea of cape books. So in my mind, I'm better off displaying the indies separately because there are lots of people who may be interested in those books that have no interest in super-heroes.

And if they are interested...they can easily browse the Marvel and DC shelves.

Man, all of this makes me want to open up a comic shop...:)

[kahunablair]

THanks Kahuna, I was trying to bring some levity.

No offense Labor, hope I didn't offend.

You put a smilie face. That means no offense can be taken, right?

[Labor_Days]

No offense Labor, hope I didn't offend.

Not at all. I'm am admittedly full of shit 99% of the time. We gotta be able to take the piss out of each other if were are to avoid being too stodgy or hyper-reactive.

I enjoy kicking the issue around. It's not life or death here. It's fun debating these geeky things with dudes.

Perhaps in bandying things about we come off more seriously than we intend to. But such is the peril of forumz.

No big fuss.

My statement explicitly states that other retailers do not use a straight alphabetical system and neither should comic book stores. Indicating that comic book stores should be similar to other retail outlets. But somehow, you get out of that the exact opposite.

Yeah, you're justifying sort By Publisher specialization based on the grounds that other shops lump their shared fiction books together in response to S1entslayer's A-Z proposal.

That speaks to comic books having a special need to be sorted by publisher rather than genre, title or creator. As that was the flow of the conversation.

You had the most credible real world example why comics should be sorted that way. I didn't think that was necessarily negative. Only that you made the point or spoke to that sentiment as I saw it.

Kwok, Josh and Kahuna's argument why Astonishing should be with the X-Men books were also good for Group A. Could not fit all of them in though. You have to pick and choose.

My only problem is that you've listed Group A with a language that connotes that things SHOULD be done a certain way.

Such was the general tone of what they were saying.

Group B (me) think things SHOULD be done their way too!

I really do see them as two opposing views on the subject. Granted I am sure some folks are a little A and a little B. But making a C, D, and E group is too much typing. And I am a lazy man.

[paper]

Books should be sorted into two categories. Hipster and Non-Hipster. Beyond that, complete bedlam, every fanboy for himself.

[xyzzy]

Not at all. I'm am admittedly full of shit 99% of the time. We gotta be able to take the piss out of each other if were are to avoid being too stodgy or hyper-reactive.

I enjoy kicking the issue around. It's not life or death here. It's fun debating these geeky things with dudes.

Perhaps in bandying things about we come off more seriously than we intend to. But such is the peril of forumz.

No big fuss.



Yeah, you're justifying sort By Publisher specialization based on the grounds that other shops lump their shared fiction books together in response to S1entslayer's A-Z proposal.

That speaks to comic books having a special need to be sorted by publisher rather than genre, title or creator. As that was the flow of the conversation.

You had the most credible real world example why comics should be sorted that way. I didn't think that was necessarily negative. Only that you made the point or spoke to that sentiment as I saw it.


You completely miss the point of what I said. I don't even think that sorting by publisher is a good idea. My point is about shared universe fiction, not publishers. Sorting by shared universes means that publishers end up being sorted together. It's a byproduct, not a goal.

[Labor_Days]

My point is about shared universe fiction, not publishers.

But people are saying Publisher/Shared universe is one and the same.

If you want to get hyper-specific about who meant 'this or that' then make up whatever grouping of views you are most sympathetic to.

[xyzzy]

But people are saying Publisher/Shared universe is one and the same.

They're certainly related, but they're not the same. Oni doesn't have a shared universe, for example.

If you want to get hyper-specific about who meant 'this or that' then make up whatever grouping of views you are most sympathetic to.

All I ask is that you not attribute views to me that I do not hold.

[kahunablair]

Books should be sorted into two categories. Hipster and Non-Hipster. Beyond that, complete bedlam, every fanboy for himself.

Or maybe one stack of "Mary Jane doing Laundry", another stack of just "Michael Vick dog discussions", OH, and a small stack of "Michael Moore" in the back of the shop.


Did I miss anything else?

[Labor_Days]

They're certainly related, but they're not the same. Oni doesn't have a shared universe, for example.

I know, right? By Publisher makes no sense to me. :-p

All I ask is that you not attribute views to me that I do not hold.

Sure. That's fair.

Little A, little B.

[xyzzy]

I know, right? By Publisher makes no sense to me. :-p


Are you actually aware of a store that sorts by publisher, with an Oni Section, a Top Shelf section, an AIT/Planetlar section, et al.?

[paper]

I like my shop's system. Alphabetical by title. But all the Batman books are together under B, alphabetically by individual title.

It's like an index in the back of a textbook. When you get to a broad category it indents and you are offered the detailed variations within that topic.

[xyzzy]

Comic Relief in Berkeley is actually my personal favorite. They specialize in trades and is structured like a book store. It's divided by subject. Superheroes are alpha by title, everything else is alpha by author.

[Labor_Days]

Are you actually aware of a store that sorts by publisher, with an Oni Section, a Top Shelf section, an AIT/Planetlar section, et al.?

Not for the indie or small press stuff. That's in the "NOT MARVEL/DC" ghetto.

[xyzzy]

Not for the indie or small press stuff. That's in the "NOT MARVEL/DC" ghetto.

Okay, so basically, you're not aware of any store that sorts by publisher, outside of grouping together the large shared universes of the DCU and MU. Is that correct?

[paper]

I also like a shop called Amazon.com, which lets you type what you want into a thing and then you click enter and it gets it for you.

[Labor_Days]

Okay, so basically, you're not aware of any store that sorts by publisher, outside of grouping together the large shared universes of the DCU and MU. Is that correct?

A few times I've seen the Image section or Dark Horse section. Most don't do this. My current store has a big sign that read INDIES, and everything is a mish-mash in there.

[kahunablair]

I also like a shop called Amazon.com, which lets you type what you want into a thing and then you click enter and it gets it for you.

We should open up a shop that nothing but a desk and a door to the backroom. When you walk into the front door, the gentleman behind the desk asks for your list.
You hand it to him. He enters the backroom and emerges 15 minutes later with your stack. No muss, no fuss.

[paper]

Like those physical Ebay stores. Haha!

Can I buy this?
Go on Ebay and place a bid.
But it's...here.

[ConorKilpatrick]

We should open up a shop that nothing but a desk and a door to the backroom. When you walk into the front door, the gentleman behind the desk asks for your list.
You hand it to him. He enters the backroom and emerges 15 minutes later with your stack. No muss, no fuss.

And on Wednesdays it would take your 14 hours to get your books! :)

Clearly the only way to settle this is

WE ALL HAVE TO OPEN OUR OWN COMIC SHOPS AND ONE YEAR FROM NOW WHOEVER HAS THE MOST MONEY WINS!

See you back here on November 13, 2008!

[kahunablair]

And on Wednesdays it would take your 14 hours to get your books! :)

Clearly the only way to settle this is

WE ALL HAVE TO OPEN OUR OWN COMIC SHOPS AND ONE YEAR FROM NOW WHOEVER HAS THE MOST MONEY WINS!

See you back here on November 13, 2008!

Can't I just travel around the world instead?

[xyzzy]

A few times I've seen the Image section or Dark Horse section. Most don't do this. My current store has a big sign that read INDIES, and everything is a mish-mash in there.

So, then, why do you think this is such a big problem if nobody actually does it?

[Labor_Days]

So, then, why do you think this is such a big problem if nobody actually does it?

Which one are you talking about, the indie ghetto or the by publisher route?

I seen both and do not like either one.

[xyzzy]

Which one are you talking about, the indie ghetto or the by publisher route?

I seen both and do not like either one.

You JUST SAID that stores don't break anything down by publisher outside of shared universes.

[Labor_Days]

You JUST SAID that stores don't break anything down by publisher outside of shared universes.

What the hell you talkin' about?

I seen A-Z and the occasional smaller press shelf. Most of it is big two/indie ghetto.

What are you asking me; why I don't like all the indies being stuck together or organizing by publishers as shorthand for genre?

[Dave Accampo]

Books should be sorted into two categories. Hipster and Non-Hipster. Beyond that, complete bedlam, every fanboy for himself.

You know, that might just work. After, all I do already use that system to sort my music, my friends, my dinner entrees, and my collection of crystal unicorn figurines that way.*

So why not comics?



* Pink Champagne is a total hipster (that scamp!), while sadly, Jennifer Jason Neighhhhh is not.

[Dave Accampo]

Comic Relief in Berkeley is actually my personal favorite. They specialize in trades and is structured like a book store. It's divided by subject. Superheroes are alpha by title, everything else is alpha by author.

Comic Relief is one of the many great Bay Area comic shops. I used to frequent it quite a bit when I lived in Berkeley and Oakland.

But last time I visited, I remember being a bit confused by the individual issues on various shelves. New comics were pretty easy to spot along the back wall, but books that were, you know, not in the back issue bins, but not quite new were harder to scan for.

The GRAPHIC novels, as you mentioned are sorted multiple ways. I recall (and this is going back a few years) that there were sections sorted by author, but other sections, as you say, sorted by title.

Meltdown sorts by publisher, with sections devoted to specific authors (Gaiman, Ellis, et al). But the sections are well-spaced and laid out, so you can tell at a glance if you're looking at colorful super-heroes or indie stuff. Incidentally, Meltdown DOES have separate shelves for Dark Horse, Oni, et al., in a way that's not mish-mash. Just stated as a counter-example.

Earth-2 has an array of different shelves -- some separated by author, by title, and some that are "spotlight" trades that they want to highlight. The special indie trades that come in have their own shelf AND are mixed with the publishers in alphabetical order on another shelf.

I say all this because it goes back to the original statement. Sorting by Publisher is NOT an inherent problem., It CAN be a problem, but so could bad "genre" sorting. A lot of it depends on the store. What I've illustrated here are three stores with a variety of methods of shelving their comics and their collections. All arbitrary decisions (publisher, author, spotlight series, genre/type) made by the respective store owners to best fit their customer base.

And I'll say it again: Sorting by publisher CAN actually help to SPOTLIGHT Indies rather that "ghettoize" them (I know, I know, we're not using that word). That seems to be a sticking point, but any store I've been to that separates indie publishers usually displays them quite nicely.

[esophagus]

But people are saying Publisher/Shared universe is one and the same.

If you want to get hyper-specific about who meant 'this or that' then make up whatever grouping of views you are most sympathetic to.I've stated numerous times that publisher and universe don't always mean the same thing.

Why isn't this closed yet?

[xyzzy]

What the hell you talkin' about?

I seen A-Z and the occasional smaller press shelf. Most of it is big two/indie ghetto.

What are you asking me; why I don't like all the indies being stuck together or organizing by publishers as shorthand for genre?

What the hell are you talking about? I asked you a straight question - are you aware of any store that sorts by publisher. You said no. Then I asked you why this thread even existed and then you said that it was a big problem. Make up your mind.

[ConorKilpatrick]

There are stores that sort by publisher.

My primary store does - a shelf, or section of shelves, for each publisher. The small publishers either have one shelf each or share a shelf.

But it's definitely a sort by publisher kind of system.

[Labor_Days]

What the hell are you talking about? I asked you a straight question - are you aware of any store that sorts by publisher. You said no. Then I asked you why this thread even existed and then you said that it was a big problem. Make up your mind.

Slow down buddy. I thought you were asking why the indie mish-mash was a problem while books from the big 2 were sorted by Pub.

You asked earlier if I knew of any place that has a Top Shelf, Oni, ASP, et cetera section. I said no, all that usually gets ghettofied. Which I've said is rubbish from the first two pages till now.

Sorting by DC/Marvel is obviously sorting by publisher. It doesn't matter if there is an Indie ghetto or a shelf for every Dark Horse, Oni or ASP pub out there. The concession has been made already.

Which I also think is rubbish.

Abstractly speaking, I don't agree with any system that categorizes books by marketshare.

Marvel or Dark Horse is not a useful genre, label or category in the way that Horror or Adventure are. That thinking only reinforces the perceived impenetrability of comic stores.

A storewide A-Z is what I'd like to have, ideally. But an A-Z by genre is (begrudgingly) the fairest, easiest and most logical system barring that. To me.

I've stated numerous times that publisher and universe don't always mean the same thing.

Why isn't this closed yet?

For our purposes, DC/Marvel is Marvel Universe DC Universe. If that weren't true to some extent, then nobody would be arguing that it makes sense to find all the X-Men books lumped together.

No need to close thread. We're discussing the topic. Sorting by Publisher and all that entails.

If you're tired of talking about it...stop posting and enjoy your system?

[esophagus]

For our purposes, DC/Marvel is Marvel Universe DC Universe. If that weren't true to some extent, then nobody would be arguing that it makes sense to find all the X-Men books lumped together.

I know, but I'm arguin ultimate should be with ultimate, aside from Marvel, just the same as Transformers, regardless of company. It's all in the universe, not really the publisher.

[Labor_Days]

So, would that mean Ultimate X-men is under the Marvel -> Ultimate Series -> "X" for X-men section?

[Dave Accampo]

It doesn't matter if there is an Indie ghetto or a shelf for every Dark Horse, Oni or ASP pub out there. The concession has been made already.

This is the crux of your argument, but I don't agree. How is it a concession? Separating Oni from the sea of cape books might actually get it MORE notice, no?

You seem to be basing this all on the fact that because Marvel and DC have the largest marketshare, they will always be in the spotlight, and any attempt to showcase indie books will be...somehow banished to the musty back corner of the store.

That simply isn't the case in most of the stores I've been to and/or mentioned in my posts.

I state again that putting indie publishers into the VAST SEA of Marvel/DC books will only further bury them. They won't get the proper attention next to the brightly colored spandex. Sorting by genre or by publisher are just shades of difference in this case. I get what you're saying about the Publisher label meaning nothing to a comics shop newbie, but since it often means more to the regular fan, I'm calling it a wash. And since Publisher -- in the comics world -- is very CLOSE to genre (Marvel/DC=Super-hero genre) it seems like the layout's going to be quite similar either way.

[xyzzy]

Slow down buddy. I thought you were asking why the indie mish-mash was a problem while books from the big 2 were sorted by Pub.

You asked earlier if I knew of any place that has a Top Shelf, Oni, ASP, et cetera section. I said no, all that usually gets ghettofied. Which I've said is rubbish from the first two pages till now.

Sorting by DC/Marvel is obviously sorting by publisher. It doesn't matter if there is an Indie ghetto or a shelf for every Dark Horse, Oni or ASP pub out there. The concession has been made already.

Which I also think is rubbish.

Abstractly speaking, I don't agree with any system that categorizes books by marketshare.

Marvel or Dark Horse is not a useful genre, label or category in the way that Horror or Adventure are. That thinking only reinforces the perceived impenetrability of comic stores.

A storewide A-Z is what I'd like to have, ideally. But an A-Z by genre is (begrudgingly) the fairest, easiest and most logical system barring that. To me.



For our purposes, DC/Marvel is Marvel Universe DC Universe. If that weren't true to some extent, then nobody would be arguing that it makes sense to find all the X-Men books lumped together.

No need to close thread. We're discussing the topic. Sorting by Publisher and all that entails.

If you're tired of talking about it...stop posting and enjoy your system?

But clearly, the problem isn't sorting by publisher. As we've established. I hope. That's extremely rare.

What you object to is that Marvel and DC get special sections while everything else is sorted normally.

[Labor_Days]

You seem to be basing this all on the fact that because Marvel and DC have the largest marketshare, they will always be in the spotlight, and any attempt to showcase indie books will be...somehow banished to the musty back corner of the store.

Most often this is the case in my experience. My old store literally had all the indies in the back corner on a small shelf.

Wall-to-wall Marvel/DC action figures and posters lined every other spot in the shop. Red stickers for everything Marvel, blue for everything DC, green for anything not DC/Marvel.

Don't think that does any good in changing how comics are precieved. It's a fetish shop, essentially.

I get what you're saying about the Publisher label meaning nothing to a comics shop newbie, but since it often means more to the regular fan, I'm calling it a wash.

Yeah, and that's what I don't like about it. It's fanboy-centric.

That's extremely rare.

What you object to is that Marvel and DC get special sections while everything else is sorted normally.

How have you established that sort by publisher is rare?

The rarity is in all the other indie pubs having discrete shelves. As I said, most often that stuff is lumped together.

Of course, sectioning Marvel/DC is sorting by publisher. It doesn't matter what they do with the rest of the books in the store.

If the Indies got shelves while Marvel/DC were mashed together in the back corner; that would also be sorting by pub. I'd equally object to that as well.

No categorizing by publisher is acceptable to me.

[xyzzy]

How have you established that sort by publisher is rare?

The rarity is in all the other indie pubs having discrete shelves. As I said, most often that stuff is lumped together.

Of course, sectioning Marvel/DC is sorting by publisher. It doesn't matter what they do with the rest of the books in the store.

If the Indies got shelves while Marvel/DC were mashed together in the back corner; that would also be sorting by pub. I'd equally object to that as well.

No categorizing by publisher is acceptable to me.

That's ridiculous. Would you say that prose books stores sort by publisher because all of the Del Rey Star Wars books are grouped together? Obviously not.

You object to Marvel and DC being separated out, but don't pretend like there's some sort of vast publisher-based organizational system out there. You make comments, pointing out that it doesn't make sense to have an Oni section, yet you've never actually seen one. So what are you arguing that for?

[Dave Accampo]

Most often this is the case in my experience. My old store literally had all the indies in the back corner on a small shelf.

Wall-to-wall Marvel/DC action figures and posters lined every other spot in the shop. Red stickers for everything Marvel, blue for everything DC, green for anything not DC/Marvel.

What I'm trying to point out is that you're using a few examples from your own experience, and pushing it forward as a universal rule. You're saying that because you've been to a few shops that have relegated the indies to a mish-mash shelf in the back corner, then "sorting by publisher is a problem."

However, that's not the case. I've cited stores that sort by publisher yet still spotlight indies without EVER creating a sense of a fanboy clubiness. You could walk into Meltdown on Sunset in LA. They sort by Publisher, but they certainly do NOT post Marvel/DC posters everywhere, and it's actually more hipster-ish than anything.

So there's the counter-example that disproves your rule. Sorting by Publisher does NOT automatically mean "indie ghetto."

If the Indies got shelves while Marvel/DC were mashed together in the back corner; that would also be sorting by pub. I'd equally object to that as well.

No categorizing by publisher is acceptable to me.

You're still pre-supposing that someone has to get mashed together in a back corner. I disagree with that notion.

What this is all leading me to realize is what (I think) Conor said pages back: the system of categorization isn't really as important the overall structure and layout of the store. Any time you shove ANYTHING into a back corner, you're doing it a disservice. But the answer doesn't lie in sorting by genre or not sorting it all. It's all about giving everything its own space to shine.

[Labor_Days]

but don't pretend like there's some sort of vast publisher-based organizational system out there.

Um, there is. It's the put DC published comics with other DC comics, put Marvel published comics with other Marvel comics, etc.

Dude, I said I have seen the occasional Oni or Dark Horse shelf. Just that it's not as common as the indie ghetto mish-mash. Don't try to play 'gotcha' because I didn't specify every instance in which I seen the practice.

The debate is academic.

Abstractly speaking, no system that arranges by publisher is acceptable to me. Indie first or not. I don't feel by pub is a valid system the equal of Horror or Sci-fi. As some have claimed.

It's that simple. How often do you want me to restate this?

What I'm trying to point out is that you're using a few examples from your own experience, and pushing it forward as a universal rule.

I've been to 7-8 stores in and around my city. Stores in NYC, London, Florida, California and St. Louis. Most are by pub.

Ok, maybe the one shop I didn't go to in Taiwan does it by color. You're right. It's not a universal rule. /rolleyes

So there's the counter-example that disproves your rule. Sorting by Publisher does NOT automatically mean "indie ghetto."

That is not a counter-example. You said they do it by pub. Indie spotlight or not, I think that's rubbish.

The indie ghetto is most common should a store forgo by pub sorting for the indies.

[kahunablair]

If the Indies got shelves while Marvel/DC were mashed together in the back corner; that would also be sorting by pub. I'd equally object to that as well.
No categorizing by publisher is acceptable to me.

Even if neither the Big 2 nor the Indies, were relegated to the back corner?

Here's how My shop was set up. Hopefully you'll see where I'm coming from, and not just assume I mean that by sorting by publisher you're relegating a certain set of books to no-mans land.
http://img40.picoodle.com/img/img40/5/11/14/f_Setupm_e1e5109.png
A) Local books, mini-comics, etc
B) Magazines and Random specials
C) Indies/Dark Horse/Image
D) Indies/Dark Horse/Image (cont?d) with Vertigo
E) DC
F) DC/Marvel
G) Marvel
H) Posters/ Artwork
I) TPB/Graphic novels
J) Baseball cards, Magic, HeroClix, all the other stuff I ignore?.
K) Cash Register
L) Toys, Knick Knacks, Statues
This set-up ensures that every publisher and book pretty much gets a chance to be seen.

[xyzzy]

Um, there is. It's the put DC published comics with other DC comics, put Marvel published comics with other Marvel comics, etc.

Dude, I said I have seen the occasional Oni or Dark Horse shelf. Just that it's not as common as the indie ghetto mish-mash. Don't try to play 'gotcha' because I didn't specify every instance in which I seen the practice.

You admitted it was rare ("A few times I've seen the Image section or Dark Horse section. Most don't do this."), but then describe it as a big problem.


The debate is academic.

Abstractly speaking, no system that arranges by publisher is acceptable to me. Indie first or not. I don't feel by pub is a valid system the equal of Horror or Sci-fi. As some have claimed.

It's that simple. How often do you want me to restate this?



What you describe is a sorting by shared universe, not by publisher. I will agree that sorting by publisher makes little sense, but since we both agree that it's a pretty rare occurance, what's the big deal?

[Labor_Days]

Yep. I don't like by pub. No matter how it is done.

Front of store, back corner or not.

[kahunablair]

Yep. I don't like by pub. No matter how it is done.

Front of store, back corner or not.

Yup, I saw your post after I had already thrown mine up. Sorry about that.

[Labor_Days]

You admitted it was rare ("A few times I've seen the Image section or Dark Horse section. Most don't do this."), but then describe it as a big problem.

It's rare for the indies to have discrete shelving as Marvel and DC do.

I don't think I said it was a "big problem" so much as I find it distasteful. And if I didn't make that clear, I find it more distasteful than a "problem".

I want an egalitarian A-Z system whereby DMZ and Daredevil are under "D".

What you describe is a sorting by shared universe, not by publisher.

Only if you believe the application of the Horror genre to share the same fictional universe.

[xyzzy]

It's rare for the indies to have discrete shelving as Marvel and DC do.

I don't think I said it was a "big problem" so much as I find it distasteful. And if I didn't make that clear, I find it more distasteful than a "problem".

I want an egalitarian A-Z system whereby DMZ and Daredevil are under "D".


Does it bother you in other stores that they don't have straight alphabetical, or just for comics?


Only if you believe the application of the Horror genre to share the same fictional universe.

I don't understand this sentence.

[Dave Accampo]

Ok, maybe the one shop I didn't go to in Taiwan does it by color. You're right. It's not a universal rule. /rolleyes

Well, my point is that you can't state "Sorting by Publisher is Part of the Problem" if it's not a universal problem. And by that I don't mean "everyone sorts by publisher." I mean there are examples where sorting by publisher is NOT a problem.



That is not a counter-example. You said they do it by pub. Indie spotlight or not, I think that's rubbish.
It shows that you can successfully show that sorting by publisher works. Thus, "Sorting by Publisher" does not equal "part of the problem." That's a counter-example.

The indie ghetto is most common should a store forgo by pub sorting for the indies.
"Most common" doesn't mean that it's an inherent problem. Just commonly mismanaged. Doesn't mean that any other sorting method would be better. Also, with "ghetto", you're still giving it a negative connotation that it need not have. A separate indie shelf is NOT a problem, unless the store itself mismanages it. I've cited several examples in which the store actually BENEFITS from a separate indie spotlight.

On the flip side, I do agree with you that this is an academic debate. And you've made your stance very clear. I appreciate it. ;)

We just simply disagree on a very fine point, and that's that:

a) your platonic ideal of a comic book store is a store sorted A-Z
b) Barring that, you would prefer a commonly recognized system, such as "genre."

On point "a)" I feel that sorting beyond A-Z is important (and almost all retail stores do this -- we're all in agreement here, I believe). On point "b)", I feel that publisher/genre are both just methods of labeling, and one is not more inherently problematic than the other. The key, for me, is to make sure that whatever method you use showcases the books well.

I think that gets at the crux of it, and I'm pretty sure at this point we're not going to convince one another of the other side. ;)

But it's been a very interesting look at comic shops, and I thank you for sticking to your side of the argument, Labor. :)

[esophagus]

So, would that mean Ultimate X-men is under the Marvel -> Ultimate Series -> "X" for X-men section?No. It goes on the Ultimate shelf. There's enough of them. If they ended up sharing a shelf it would be for no other reason than not leaving a big gap on the shelf.Yeah, and that's what I don't like about it. It's fanboy-centric.So are comics. If you bought the last issue of House of M, or the latest Countdown, you wouldn't be fully into the story without some semblance of knowledge on that shared universe. That is, essentially, why trades are published, is it not? If you miss some issues, they want to make sure you have the opportunity to pick it up later. That's the way I see shared universe organization. It makes sure that just because you've never read another DC book, you aren't lost in what books belong where, or where you can find them. I'm not trying to downplay any indie, non-big two, books. Infact, if I had a shop that catered purely to my tastes I doubt you'd see a whole lot from the big two. If there's a standalone series, then sure, I would probably give it a genre label. I have five true cime OGNs? Sure, they can have a shelf. Little of it realy has to do with giving the big two that extra boost of advertising a standalone shelf gives, it's in helping regulars find their books easy, and helping the new readers understand what's what. If it helps you at all, the Ultimate shelf can go next to Oni, so it doesn't seem purely publisher-based. It really has very little to do with it, for me.

[kahunablair]

Labor, I know you're sticking to your guns on the whole Non-Publisher sorting, so I had a few questions about your ABC style.

-Would Event books be sorted that way as well? Civil War would be in the C's?
-Would you take a standard sorting, where say "The Amazing SpiderMan" would go under A or T?
-Should there be a chart or perhaps a pamphlet, to tell new readers where they can find the different "Cyclop's books"?
-How often should the racks be "cleaned up"? Because it seems like monthly, if not weekly, new books are coming out and old ones are going away. When you get a new B title, you'd have to shuffle the rest of the books down.

[esophagus]

Would you take a standard sorting, where say "The Amazing SpiderMan" would go under A or T?If it went under T, I would refuse to shop anywhere that organized that way. That's just silly-talk.

[kahunablair]

If it went under T, I would refuse to shop anywhere that organized that way. That's just silly-talk.

I know and I seriously doubt that would be the case. I just wanted to check.

[Labor_Days]

Does it bother you in other stores that they don't have straight alphabetical, or just for comics?

For the most part they are arranged A-Z within their respective broadly applied category; Rock/Pop, Mystery, Religious Studies, Comedy, et cetera.

Personally, I don't like the haphazardness this often leads to. But recognize the utility of finding Ween under "W" in Rock/Pop rather than in the Opera/Country/Comedy section or under Elektra Records. Mildly irksome, to me.

I do not agree in any way that one can transpose the intellectual cache or utility of a commonly applied genre label such as "Mystery" to Dark Horse or Image in equal measure.

That is to say, the label of Image, and thus the sorting by Image or other pub, has no useful end in the way that one would recognize "Mystery" as shorthand for the kind of book they are interested in within a broadly understood context of the "Mystery" label. Which is pretty standard.

Thus while sorting by pub is categorization of a different sort- I feel it's not useful in any logical way to casual readers and only adds an unnecessary layer of complication for the casual browser.

Which other new-ish and old pro comics fans have said to be true, in this thread.

I don't understand this sentence.

You were saying, the sorting system of Marvel/DC published was actually shared uni rather than by pub. Following the proposed logic that Marvel/DC are just another kind of label or method of categorization; then one would have to believe that by putting all the Horror together, we are sorting by shared universe.

The horror books are grouped together because that is an understood genre type. Marvel is not a genre type of any usefulness.

That is a by pub system and find it rubbish.

Re: Dave Accampo

Less a problem for me. More distasteful. I just don't like any system that is going to section comics by publisher. I don't feel that's useful for various reasons.

And I don't want Image or Oni spotlighted just for the sake of not being Marvel or DC.

[esophagus]

Next you dudes are going to be saying that titles which begin in "The" belong in the "T" section.
I think that solves that. =D

[Labor_Days]

-Would Event books be sorted that way as well? Civil War would be in the C's?

Only the main Civil War book should be under "C". Every other book under in it's respective place by title.

I don't think this is a problem as most event books have banners. If the retailer thought it a good idea to spotlight the event itself with a kiosk or such; I don't see a problem with that.

Book and music stores do this for your Oprah Book Club selections or your Touch & Go records. You don't find a storewide categorizing by record label or Oprah books.

-Would you take a standard sorting, where say "The Amazing SpiderMan" would go under A or T?

"A". I never seen a system that uses "T" for titles that begin in "The". Least the title is "The,The, The, The" or such. In that case, "T".

-Should there be a chart or perhaps a pamphlet, to tell new readers where they can find the different "Cyclop's books"?

If they know who Cyclops is, they most likely know he is an X-man. They can look for the various X-books by title. Assuming they go straight to the "X" section, they will find an X-men book.

Anyone savvy enough to know there is Uncanny, New and Astonishing X-men doesn't need pamphlet. He need only know his ABCs.

Still need help or a recommendation? Ask the clerk.

-How often should the racks be "cleaned up"? Because it seems like monthly, if not weekly, new books are coming out and old ones are going away. When you get a new B title, you'd have to shuffle the rest of the books down.

As often as other retailers that receive their new shipments weekly on Tuesdays.

[xyzzy]

For the most part they are arranged A-Z within their respective broadly applied category; Rock/Pop, Mystery, Religious Studies, Comedy, et cetera.

Personally, I don't like the haphazardness this often leads to. But recognize the utility of finding Ween under "W" in Rock/Pop rather than in the Opera/Country/Comedy section or under Elektra Records. Mildly irksome, to me.

I do not agree in any way that one can transpose the intellectual cache or utility of a commonly applied genre label such as "Mystery" to Dark Horse or Image in equal measure.

That is to say, the label of Image, and thus the sorting by Image or other pub, has no useful end in the way that one would recognize "Mystery" as shorthand for the kind of book they are interested in within a broadly understood context of the "Mystery" label. Which is pretty standard.

Likewise, when someone reads a book in the Star Wars universe, it's usually pretty safe to assume that they might be interested in other books set in that universe, even if they're by other authors or have titles far, far away in the alphabet.

Thus while sorting by pub is categorization of a different sort- I feel it's not useful in any logical way to casual readers and only adds an unnecessary layer of complication for the casual browser.

Which other new-ish and old pro comics fans have said to be true, in this thread.

I've never said any such thing.

You were saying, the sorting system of Marvel/DC published was actually shared uni rather than by pub. Following the proposed logic that Marvel/DC are just another kind of label or method of categorization; then one would have to believe that by putting all the Horror together, we are sorting by shared universe.

The horror books are grouped together because that is an understood genre type. Marvel is not a genre type of any usefulness.

That is a by pub system and find it rubbish.


I'm finding you almost incoherent.

Horror is a genre, not shared universe. What are you trying to say? Star Wars is a shared universe, Dragonlance is a shared universe. Every book store I've ever been to groups these books together because of that. What does horror, as a genre, have to do with that at all?

[esophagus]

If they know who Cyclops is, they most likely know he is an X-man. They can look for the various X-books by title. Assuming they go straight to the "X" section, they will find an X-men book.

Anyone savvy enough to know there is Uncanny, New and Astonishing X-men doesn't need pamphlet. He need only know his ABCs.

Still need help or a recommendation? Ask the clerk.

This is the one major flaw I have with your argument. You suggest that this system is in some way easier for new readers. I'm sure a majority of new readers have figured out companies / universes. They'll see X-Men on one shelf, and assume that's the shelf they can grab the rest there. How is that harder than having to know the adjectives to every title out there?

[Dave Accampo]

I've never said any such thing.

Uh, to be fair -- there are others arguing in this thread who have said this. I've said it. Labor is correct.

You guys are actually pretty close to the same side of the main argument. :)

[kahunablair]

Only the main Civil War book should be under "C". Every other book under in it's respective place by title.
I don't think this is a problem as most event books have banners. If the retailer thought it a good idea to spotlight the event itself with a kiosk or such; I don't see a problem with that.
Book and music stores do this for your Oprah Book Club selections or your Touch & Go records. You don't find a storewide categorizing by record label or Oprah books.
Totally agree. Just wanted to verify where you stood on such things.


"A". I never seen a system that uses "T" for titles that begin in "The". Least the title is "The,The, The, The" or such. In that case, "T".
Wanted to see where you fell in that aspect. Mainly because the ABC filing is bucking the trends, so I was just curious if that was going to change as well.


If they know who Cyclops is, they most likely know he is an X-man. They can look for the various X-books by title. Assuming they go straight to the "X" section, they will find an X-men book.
That's true they will. But what about the child that wants a Spider-Man book? They'll be going for "S" and will come up without a Spidey book.

Anyone savvy enough to know there is Uncanny, New and Astonishing X-men doesn't need pamphlet. He need only know his ABCs.
I wasn't asking about someone Savvy. I was asking about someone that doesn't know.


Still need help or a recommendation? Ask the clerk.

As often as other retailers that receive their new shipments weekly on Tuesdays.

Felt like grouping these two together just because both pose the same problems. Both would result in a need for more staff, and in turn less profit for the stores.
If every week the rack needs to be completely shifted, you'll need to have extra help to do that.
If it was by publisher, you'd just rotate the stock. Here you'd have to worry about moving everything down or up a slot.

[Labor_Days]

I've never said any such thing.

Others have put that forth.

Horror is a genre, not shared universe. What are you trying to say?

Then why did you say;
What you describe is a sorting by shared universe, not by publisher.

In response to;
It's the put DC published comics with other DC comics, put Marvel published comics with other Marvel comics, etc.


That is 'by pub' as I described there. If you are saying that is actually sort by shared universe, as thus another method of categorizing, as sorting by Horror or Comedy is, then I say;

I do not agree in any way that one can transpose the intellectual cache or utility of a commonly applied genre label such as "Mystery" to Dark Horse or Image in equal measure.

That is to say, the label of Image, and thus the sorting by Image or other pub, has no useful end in the way that one would recognize "Mystery" as shorthand for the kind of book they are interested in within a broadly understood context of the "Mystery" label. Which is pretty standard.

Thus while sorting by pub is categorization of a different sort- I feel it's not useful in any logical way to casual readers and only adds an unnecessary layer of complication for the casual browser.

Which other new-ish and old pro comics fans have said to be true, in this thread.

Star Trek books are in the Sci-Fi section, A-Z by title. Not in the whoever-publishes-them section because that is useless.

[xyzzy]

Others have put that forth.



Then why did you say;


In response to;


That is 'by pub' as I described there. If you are saying that is actually sort by shared universe, as thus another method of categorizing, as sorting by Horror or Comedy is, then I say;



Star Trek books are in the Sci-Fi section, A-Z by title. Not in the whoever-publishes-them section because that is useless.


Actually Star Trek books are usually in the Sci-Fi section, sorted by series. It just makes more sense than going by title.

Marvel and DC go in the superhero section, sorted into MU, Ultimate U, DCU, etc. It's no different, despite your efforts to describe it as such.

As to your comparison of horror to shared universe fiction, I still don't understand what you're trying to say.

[Dave Accampo]

Actually Star Trek books are usually in the Sci-Fi section, sorted by series. It just makes more sense than going by title.

Marvel and DC go in the superhero section, sorted into MU, Ultimate U, DCU, etc. It's no different, despite your efforts to describe it as such.

As to your comparison of horror to shared universe fiction, I still don't understand what you're trying to say.

I'm just trying to clarify here.

So, your IDEAL comic shop would be sorted by Genre first, then shared universe, then alphabet. Is that right?

Thus:

Section: Super-hero
Sub-section: Marvel
Sub-subsection: Ant-man

Is that right?

And under other genres, you would go:

Western
DC
Batlash
Jonah Hex

DC/Vertigo
Loveless

Marvel
Rawhide Kid (I'm just using this as an example -- let's pretend it is current)

Or, since Loveless doesn't have a "shared universe" it would go...

DC
Batlash
Jonah Hex

Deadlander
Loveless

Marvel
Rawhide Kid
Two-Gun Kid (I'm just pretending for the sake of example -- these would be a shared universe from Marvel under Western)

Scalped (let's call it a western for now)

Or...would Jonah Hex go under DCU/Super-hero, since that's technically the universe he's in...despite the fact that he's a Western character?

[Labor_Days]

Re: Kahuna

So this someone knows of something specific like Cyclops but not the X-men? And this someone would not find an X-men book under "X"?

He got his X-book. It might not be your favorite or mine, but that's not pertinent to the method. Where is the harm in asking for more X-men books if this someone wishes?

Being likely to browse, he'll see all the X-books (hard to miss) anyway. Need more help, ask. As people are wont to do in stores.

Actually Star Trek books are usually in the Sci-Fi section, sorted by series. It just makes more sense than going by title.

As to your comparison of horror to shared universe fiction, I still don't understand what you're trying to say

Alright then. But Star Trek is sorted in Sci-fi because that is a useful genre label. Marvel is not a useful genre label.

Seriously, you can't follow the logic of someone saying that sorting by Marvel/DC uni is equal to sorting Horror/Comedy in genre label through?

You may not be saying it. But others have. Claiming it to be the just another label for categorizing, only different wording. I say nuts to that.

Sorting Marvel U with all the other Marvel U books is by pub. If you want to break it down to Superhero (an acceptable genre for us here) genre, and put the superhero books of all the pubs in together- that's cool with me.

If you are only putting Marvel heroes in their own section, DC on another, Image on another and so on- that is really just by pub, not shared uni.

Superhero as genre is something we can identify with the kind of stories we want to read. Oni as a genre is not identifiable with what I want to read.


I love kicking this around. It's fascinating but I wonder if we are not just arguing from different angles but toward the same ends. Hmm. It's good to think on for me.

[xyzzy]

Re: Kahuna

So this someone knows of something specific like Cyclops but not the X-men? And this someone would not find an X-men book under "X"?

He got his X-book. It might not be your favorite or mine, but that's not pertinent to the method. Where is the harm in asking for more X-men books if this someone wishes?

Being likely to browse, he'll see all the X-books (hard to miss) anyway. Need more help, ask. As people are wont to do in stores.



Alright then. But Star Trek is sorted in Sci-fi because that is a useful genre label. Marvel is not a useful genre label.

Seriously, you can't follow the logic of someone saying that sorting by Marvel/DC uni is equal to sorting Horror/Comedy in genre label through?

You may not be saying it. But others have. Claiming it to be the just another label for categorizing, only different wording. I say nuts to that.

Sorting Marvel U with all the other Marvel U books is by pub. If you want to break it down to Superhero (an acceptable genre for us here) genre, and put the superhero books of all the pubs in together- that's cool with me.

If you are only putting Marvel heroes in their own section, DC on another, Image on another and so on- that is really just by pub, not shared uni.

Superhero as genre is something we can identify with the kind of stories we want to read. Oni as a genre is not identifiable with what I want to read.


I love kicking this around. It's fascinating but I wonder if we are not just arguing from different angles but toward the same ends. Hmm. It's good to think on for me.

Look, if you're going to respond to me, then only respond to the arguments I have made. I have no desire to defend the arguments of others.

If you can agree that "Superhero" is a useful genre for comic shops, then explain to me this:

Bookstore -> Science Fiction Section -> Star Wars books (shared universe)
Comic book store -> Superheroes -> Marvel Universe books (Shared universe)

How is that different?

Is the book store sorting by publisher because all of the Star Wars books (Del Rey) are grouped together? Why or why not?

[Labor_Days]

I saw Star Wars books arranged by title, under "S".

edit: I mean in the Sci-Fi section, under "S"

[esophagus]

I saw Star Wars books arranged by title, under "S".
Then scrap that example. At the bookstore I work at the Sci-Fi section has an entire shelf devoted to Forgotten Realms. The titles rarely to never start with Forgotten Realms, they're not under F, and the authors aren't always the same. Yet, because there's a shared universe, there's a shared shelf. Is that acceptable, or would you ratehr see the 100+ books thrown randomly through the Sci-Fi/Fantasy section?

[xyzzy]

I'm just trying to clarify here.

So, your IDEAL comic shop would be sorted by Genre first, then shared universe, then alphabet. Is that right?

*snip*

Or...would Jonah Hex go under DCU/Super-hero, since that's technically the universe he's in...despite the fact that he's a Western character?

No, I'd group all shared universe books together and then put that grouping in whatever genre was most appropriate.

It's the common sense approach. You don't break up a series across multiple sections, even if the books in that series cross genres.

[esophagus]

No, I'd group all shared universe books together and then put that grouping in whatever genre was most appropriate.

It's the common sense approach. You don't break up a series across multiple sections, even if the books in that series cross genres.It's a valid question. If you're going to go by such a vast universe, then sometimes breaking it up is alright when they don't tie together so much. That said, I do agree with your answer. Perhaps genres within the series section (for a comic book shop, not prose)? That's probably getting far too convoluted, though. At this point the iFanboy Forum shop needs pamphlets, more staff than the UN, and a lot of strange arranging.

[Dave Accampo]

No, I'd group all shared universe books together and then put that grouping in whatever genre was most appropriate.

It's the common sense approach. You don't break up a series across multiple sections, even if the books in that series cross genres.

It's not common sense, though. Common sense would be that Jonah Hex is a Western, not a Super-hero book.

[Dave Accampo]

At this point the iFanboy Forum shop needs pamphlets, more staff than the UN, and a lot of strange arranging.

BWA-HA-HA!

Nice on, Eso.

Can you imagine?

The first customer in the store would find us all dead, buried under a tipped-over shelf with a sign above it that has the words "DC" crossed out and "Super-Heroes" written in in permanent marker.

[xyzzy]

It's not common sense, though. Common sense would be that Jonah Hex is a Western, not a Super-hero book.

I don't know anything about Jonah Hex, so I can't comment. You said that he exists in a super-hero universe, though, so I assume that it's appropriate, even if his particular book is western themed.

Take the Vorkosigan saga. There are several books in that series that I would classify as mysteries, others military science fiction and a couple romance. But I'm going to put them all in the science fiction section, because that is the overall best categorization of the series. I'm not going to put books 1-2 in romance, 3-5 in science fiction and 6-9 in mystery. That defies reason.

[esophagus]

BWA-HA-HA!

Nice on, Eso.

Can you imagine?

The first customer in the store would find us all dead, buried under a tipped-over shelf with a sign above it that has the words "DC" crossed out and "Super-Heroes" written in in permanent marker.Labor narrowly escaped death, as he had been running to the back dark corner to dismantle the "indie" shelf at the time.

[xyzzy]

I saw Star Wars books arranged by title, under "S".

edit: I mean in the Sci-Fi section, under "S"

That doesn't answer the question.

[esophagus]

I don't know anything about Jonah Hex, so I can't comment. You said that he exists in a super-hero universe, though, so I assume that it's appropriate, even if his particular book is western themed.

Take the Vorkosigan saga. There are several books in that series that I would classify as mysteries, others military science fiction and a couple romance. But I'm going to put them all in the science fiction section, because that is the overall best categorization of the series. I'm not going to put books 1-2 in romance, 3-5 in science fiction and 6-9 in mystery. That defies reason.Jonah Hex exists within the DCU in the same way that Sandman does (with Hex being even more unattached than Sandman). They're really not huge parts of one another, they're just there. It's not western "themed". It's just western.

[esophagus]

That doesn't answer the question.Yes it does. It means that ideally, and the way he's seen it, is that Star wars and grouped based on universe, but title. I think the bigger problem here is that you aren't getting the answer you're looking for, not that you're not getting one.

Edit: Assuming I interpreted him correctly. Not trying to put words in anyones mouth.

[xyzzy]

Jonah Hex exists within the DCU in the same way that Sandman does (with Hex being even more unattached than Sandman). They're really not huge parts of one another, they're just there. It's not western "themed". It's just western.

I don't really know what that means. If the connection is merely tangential, I don't have a problem splitting it off. I mean, I'm not going to group The Crying of Lot 49 with The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai because they both feature the fictional company Yoyodyne.

[xyzzy]

Yes it does. It means that ideally, and the way he's seen it, is that Star wars and grouped based on universe, but title. I think the bigger problem here is that you aren't getting the answer you're looking for, not that you're not getting one.

Edit: Assuming I interpreted him correctly. Not trying to put words in anyones mouth.


If they're grouped together, then they aren't sorted by title. They're grouped together because they're Star Wars books. It's not like all of the titles start with "Star Wars."

[Labor_Days]

At the bookstore I work at the Sci-Fi section has an entire shelf devoted to Forgotten Realms. The titles rarely to never start with Forgotten Realms, they're not under F, and the authors aren't always the same. Yet, because there's a shared universe, there's a shared shelf. Is that acceptable, or would you ratehr see the 100+ books thrown randomly through the Sci-Fi/Fantasy section?

Are these FR books filed under "F" followed by the "G" section?

[Dave Accampo]

I don't know anything about Jonah Hex, so I can't comment. You said that he exists in a super-hero universe, though, so I assume that it's appropriate, even if his particular book is western themed.

Jonah Hex is technically part of the DCU, but the book itself is a Western book. If you were to pick up any single issue of this series, you would say "Western." In any given issue, there is NO sense that this is part of a larger universe. And, here's a good litmus test: you could give it to a casual reader and say "here, it's a Western book cuz I know you like Westerns" and they probably would have no problem understanding it. It doesn't cross-over with other DC books, and it's not part of any cross-overs.

However, it's technically set in the past of the DCU. There could be a story where the Teen Titans could go back in time and visit Jonah Hex. I believe the Justice League cartoon even did a time-travel story on TV that had Hex in it. So it's conceivable that he's associated with the DCU.

So...is it a Western or a DCU book?

It might seem like I'm making Labor's case for him, but my point with this is that there are tons of arbitrary decisions to make at any given time. Genre and shared universes are as arbitrary a system as anything else.

[Labor_Days]

Yeah, when it comes down to it it's all arbitrary. I can't think of anyone who will be 100% satisfied with filing by genre. Someone is going to complain this comic is more crime noir than comedy and so forth.

I think the difference is, that generally speaking, a label like Comedy can be understood to a casual reader more so than a label such as "DC".

(Am I misunderstanding you, Dave?)

[xyzzy]

Jonah Hex is technically part of the DCU, but the book itself is a Western book. If you were to pick up any single issue of this series, you would say "Western." In any given issue, there is NO sense that this is part of a larger universe. And, here's a good litmus test: you could give it to a casual reader and say "here, it's a Western book cuz I know you like Westerns" and they probably would have no problem understanding it. It doesn't cross-over with other DC books, and it's not part of any cross-overs.

However, it's technically set in the past of the DCU. There could be a story where the Teen Titans could go back in time and visit Jonah Hex. I believe the Justice League cartoon even did a time-travel story on TV that had Hex in it. So it's conceivable that he's associated with the DCU.

So...is it a Western or a DCU book?

It might seem like I'm making Labor's case for him, but my point with this is that there are tons of arbitrary decisions to make at any given time. Genre and shared universes are as arbitrary a system as anything else.

Oh, I agree that it's arbitrary. But the entire world of entertainment retail has been making such decisions since the begining of time. I don't see what makes comics so special that we should have them sorted differently.

[Dave Accampo]

(Am I misunderstanding you, Dave?)

Nah, we're on the same wavelength. We may still fall on different sides of the final argument, but I think we're understanding each other. ;)

[Dave Accampo]

We should totally end this thread with a giant (virtual) group hug, though.

:D

[xyzzy]

Yeah, when it comes down to it it's all arbitrary. I can't think of anyone who will be 100% satisfied with filing by genre. Someone is going to complain this comic is more crime noir than comedy and so forth.

I think the difference is, that generally speaking, a label like Comedy can be understood to a casual reader more so than a label such as "DC".

(Am I misunderstanding you, Dave?)

I would sort of agree with this statement. Even a casual reader is going to know the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek, just as they would the difference between Marvel and DC.

Now, someone who walked in off the street who didn't know anything about comics at all, sure they may be momentarily confused. But that person isn't a casual reader, they're a non-reader. Though the length of time for to understand it would be minimal. Yeah, occasionally you'll get someone who's trying to buy a book for their nephew and thinks that Luke Skywalker and Jean Luc Picard hang out together, but I think anybody with even a passing interest can figure out the difference.

[Labor_Days]

Putting Robin under "R" and "B" is a practical compromise, when I think on it.

Yeah, I can live in that world.


edit: Brought on by the realization that there is no longer a Spider-Man book that begins in "S". Kahuna, ftw?

[Dave Accampo]

Oh, I agree that it's arbitrary. But the entire world of entertainment retail has been making such decisions since the begining of time. I don't see what makes comics so special that we should have them sorted differently.

A Few of us have laid out arguments as to why sorting by Publisher MAY make sense to some retailers, so I won't rehash it again.

My feeling -- at this point in the thread -- is that sorting by publisher has some benefit for retailers and customers. Enough for me to come down against the main argument that "Sorting by Publisher is Part of the Problem." However, I would NOT say that "Sorting by Publisher is the BEST/ONLY method."

All I was ever really saying was that I don't think it's an inherent problem (which is the argument posed in the title of the thread), just one factor to consider.

Labor disagrees, and I see many of his points.

But I would still visit his comic shop and start sorting his A-Z comics by publisher just to screw with him. :D

[kahunablair]

edit: Brought on by the realization that there is no longer a Spider-Man book that begins in "S". Kahuna, ftw?
As usual! Haha . ;)


We should totally end this thread with a giant (virtual) group hug, though.

:D
9 times out of 10 that's how arguments end on here. The Agree to Disagree is a normal term around here.
I think I've only seen 3 threads close because of some nastiness. Even though we all don't agree with each other, we all still respect one another. That's the beauty of the iFanboy name being on top of this board.

[esophagus]

Are these FR books filed under "F" followed by the "G" section?Nope.

It's a progression that even I find stupid.

Sci-Fi A-Z ---> Roleplaying A-Z ---> Forgotten Realms ---> WarHammer

To me that is when the unfair treatment starts, when you do everything one way, with exceptions for things like that.

[Labor_Days]

Yeah, if that is the case definitely, nay. Nay beyond all measure.

[esophagus]

Yeah, if that is the case definitely, nay. Nay beyond all measure.But, if they fell weithin F, despite the titles not starting with F, would that work?

[Labor_Days]

If I didn't know it was a FR book but knew it was called "The Elf's Beguiling Harpsichord"- how would I find it on my own?

[esophagus]

Probably the same way a person who liked FR, but had never heard of "The Elfs Beguiling Harpsichord" woulld with your system, and I'm guessing there's more people like that. But I was just curious to know your stance.

[xyzzy]

If I didn't know it was a FR book but knew it was called "The Elf's Beguiling Harpsichord"- how would I find it on my own?

Even if it wasn't in a separate section, if all you know the is the title, you're going to have to ask someone to look it up in almost any bookstore, since they sort by author outside of shared universe or anthology books.

[Labor_Days]

See, I think it's much simpler to go to Sci-Fi/Fantasy -> look under "E" for a casual/new fantasy reader like myself.

I wouldn't necessarily know what FR was and that's not really what I am looking for to begin with. I am looking for that cool book I heard about, The Elf's Beguiling Harpsichord.

If I was interested enough to know that Elf's Beguiling Harpsichord was an FR book, I could pick it out fairly quickly. Because I would be an old pro.

Similarly, if I heard about that cool comic Astonishing X-men and saw the comic racks A-Z, I'd quickly hazard that it's under "A". I wouldn't be thinking of "Oh that's in the Marvel section, under "X" for X-men". Because i wouldn't necessarily know this as a newb.

If the retailer wants to set up a kiosk or spinner rack (I see the niche records and books arranged like this far more often) to highlight related books as in Countdown or X-Men, that's cool.

I want less barriers to entry.

edit: Yeah, Xyzzy, I know it's by author. I'm just going with the example. If I had the Author's name I'd look under "K" or whatever it happened to be as newb.

[Dave Accampo]

9 times out of 10 that's how arguments end on here. The Agree to Disagree is a normal term around here.
I think I've only seen 3 threads close because of some nastiness. Even though we all don't agree with each other, we all still respect one another. That's the beauty of the iFanboy name being on top of this board.

Yeah, that's what I suspected.

I just like to hug.

Is that so wrong?

[esophagus]

See, I think it's much simpler to go to Sci-Fi/Fantasy -> look under "E" for a casual/new fantasy reader like myself.

I wouldn't necessarily know what FR was and that's not really what I am looking for to begin with. I am looking for that cool book I heard about, The Elf's Beguiling Harpsichord.

If I was interested enough to know that Elf's Beguiling Harpsichord was an FR book, I could pick it out fairly quickly. Because I would be an old pro.

Similarly, if I heard about that cool comic Astonishing X-men and saw the comic racks A-Z, I'd quickly hazard that it's under "A". I wouldn't be thinking of "Oh that's in the Marvel section, under "X" for X-men.

If the retailer wants to set up a kiosk or spinner rack (I see the niche records and books arranged like this far more often) to highlight related books as in Countdown or X-Men, that's cool.

I want less barriers to entry.

edit: Yeah, Xyzzy, I know it's by author. I'm just going with the example. If I had the Author's name I'd look under "K" or whatever it happened to be as newb.I see where you're coming from, and I think it's a good way to look at things. I just think you're looking at it wrong. How many people are going to go to a bookstore (regardless of organization) and ask "Theres a book called Elfs Beguiling Harpsichord, it's the middle book in a series, I'm just not sure which one, could you help me?" vs. the people who'll say "I play a game called Forgotten Realms, and I heard they made it into a book series. Could you point me to it?". Same goes for the X-Men. How many people are going to come in, new to comics, asking "I'd love to read Astonishing X-Men" vs the people who'll ask "I love the X-Men, and was just wondering if they had any titles other than the standard X-Men book (adjectiveless, in this scenario)?". I would guess it's the second one in both scenarios, so does it not make more sense to have some sort of starting point where they'll be able to find all the books they're looking for, outside of a broad genre like "Sci-Fi" or "Superhero"?

[xyzzy]

edit: Yeah, Xyzzy, I know it's by author. I'm just going with the example. If I had the Author's name I'd look under "K" or whatever it happened to be as newb.

I'm just saying that unless you have complete information, any organizational system (even straight alphabetical) can leave a person unable to find what they're looking for. If all you have is the title, you can't find it if it's sorted by author. If all you have is the author, you can't find it if its sorted by title. If it's in a separate section, then you can find it if you know what shared universe it takes place in and you can't if you don't. It's not more or less difficult or confusing than any other system.

[Labor_Days]

Given that comics are arranged by title, even in by pub systems, all one would have to know is the title. Comics sorted A-Z by title is the least complicated.

A quick glance that all the comics on the shelf are A-Z, one could match up the title with it's respective lettering. You do the same for books, only it's by author, A-Z. There is a built in expectation level in such a sorting system.

Thus if I knew The Elf's Beguiling Harpsichord was by Q.R. Killowog, I'd naturally look under "K". Not knowing that it was an FR book because I am a newb.

You KNOW you want Astonishing X-men, "A". You DON'T know you want Astonishing X-men but DO want X-men, "X".

I can compromise with related family books being filed together for the more complex titles.

[esophagus]

Given that comics are arranged by title, even in by pub systems, all one would have to know is the title. Comics sorted A-Z by title is the least complicated.

A quick glance that all the comics on the shelf are A-Z, one could match up the title with it's respective lettering. You do the same for books, only it's by author, A-Z. There is a built in expectation level in such a sorting system.

Thus if I knew The Elf's Beguiling Harpsichord was by Q.R. Killowog, I'd naturally look under "K". Not knowing that it was an FR book because I am a newb.

You KNOW you want Astonishing X-men, "A". You DON'T know you want Astonishing X-men but DO want X-men, "X".

I can compromise with related family books being filed together for the more complex titles.Again, then we get things like Spider-Man, or even the example of Forgotten Realms I used earlier. They have no titles that are plainly the series name. As a new person, chances are you don't know every title in a series, or every book in a line, so is it not easier to see them all as a group?

[Labor_Days]

That's what I meant by the compromise, Eso.

[esophagus]

That's what I meant by the compromise, Eso.
Okay, then you have the problem of "Well all Spider-Man titles are together, why wouldn't the X-Men be together? There must only be one". There's always going to be problems for new people, and I think the best way to solve that is too go all one way or the other.