Scott Pilgrim... really?

[horatio616]

Just read the first trade of Scott Pilgrim after hearing the iFanboys going ga-ga over it. It read like any one of a hundred teen-oriented manga titles on the shelves at your local bookstore. It's cute in parts but once the evil ex-boyfriend shows up, the book goes off the rails and now I'm no longer interested in continuing reading this. Anyone else have thoughts on this series?

[humphrey-lee]

Yes, I do. You're wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong... I hate because I love. ;)

[conorkilpatrick]

I'm shocked by your reaction.

(Not really)

[jimski]

Oh, my! Why not just name the thread "Who Wants to Fight Me?"

Seriously, though, I seem to recall that the first time I heard about Scott Pilgrim on the iFanboy podcast, the person talking made comments similar to yours. Once the ex shows up, the series reveals itself for what it truly is, and you either say, "This is not what I signed on for; I expected Life and you gave me crack," or "now we're talking; let's go with this." It seems to be a pretty ironclad divider.

[jaflanagan]

Yeah, I've been waiting for this from someone. Can't say I'm shocked it was Horatio either.

I had that same reaction when it took "the turn," but then realized that it didn't bother me, and from there, I've just liked it more and more.

I guess it's just not for you.

Oldy McGeezerton.

[labor_days]

Always so controversial, that Horatio.

[horatio616]

I hadn't heard what others thought of it so I'd thought I'd ask! There were lots of things I enjoyed about it: the naturalistic dialogue, the labels that were used to describe objects and people, the sleepover scene, and especially Scott's roommate, who was great. It's like a pretty good movie that was spoiled by the ending. (I'm blank for an example.) Not really interested in reading about the battles with the exes.

I was hoping to like it because I'm yearning for something in the, as Ron would say, "relationship-y book' genre. What I'm most excited about picking up is Blankets, True Story Swear to God, and Black Hole (even though I don't think I'll like it). Probably Crecy and The King too. I'm a little disillusioned by the event driven comics that the Big Two are churning out right now and I need something else to fill the gap while I wait for Vertigo and Walking Dead trades.

[six-gun]

Yes, indeed Labor.

As someone who's controversial himself I've got your back Horatio! Scott Pilgrim (that's the book with the Manga dude right? ;)) blows!

The downtrodden of iFanboy unite!

[paper]

It's incredible how wrong one person can be with just one opinion. ;)

I will agree that it isn't a whole lot different from manga. But I don't so much care. Because it's good. In the same way that Japanese television is disassembled and reorganized for our consumption (Power Rangers, Godzilla, G-Force, etc.) Scott Pilgrim repackages the manga aesthetic to suit our culture. And the translation really works. We know these people.

[paper]

Yes, indeed Labor.

As someone who's controversial himself I've got your back Horatio! Scott Pilgrim (that's the book with the Manga dude right? ;)) blows!

The downtrodden of iFanboy unite!


This is a good opportunity for discussion. Why does it blow?

[six-gun]

We know these people.

Nay! They are strangers to our land!

[six-gun]

This is a good opportunity for discussion. Why does it blow?

Because I'm supporting Horatio

[paper]

Nay! They are strangers to our land!

The south? Well, yeah.

Wonder if Scott Pilgrim is sort of a city thing. Or maybe a college thing.

[fred]

Because I'm supporting Horatio

I'll make the banners

[six-gun]

The south? Well, yeah.


I feel as if you have the most stereotypical and wrong view of my region possible

[paper]

I just get the sense that Scott Pilgrim wouldn't play as well to those with a rural work ethic. You live on a farm, right? Scott Pilgrim is a slacker with a gay roommate.

[mikegraham6]

I'm surprised ANY of you guys can relate to scott pilgrim, he's Canadian isn't he? ;)

[six-gun]

I just get the sense that Scott Pilgrim wouldn't play as well to those with a rural work ethic. You live on a farm, right? Scott Pilgrim is a slacker with a gay roommate.

I'm in the minority

[fred]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/fredhosley/horatio.gif

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/fredhosley/paper.gif

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/fredhosley/fred.gif

[paper]

Haha, I shouldn't get credit for the pro-Pilgrim side.

It should say "I'm with Young Neil"

[luthor]

I bought the first trade last weekend and I've read it more then once since then and enjoyed it more each time. I swear there are people in the book based on people I knew when I ran in that scene and it's creepy how much I can relate to these characters. Pilgrim went from something I never heard of to one of my favorites, literally overnight...and I've only read the first trade.

I'm surprised ANY of you guys can relate to scott pilgrim, he's Canadian isn't he? ;)

Werd.

[kahunablair]

Half way through reading the first book, I almost felt the same way as Horatio. I really didn't "get" it. I actually put the book down for a few days, with the intention of actually leaving it there.
Then one night, I got bored, and picked it back up. Maybe I was abducted and had my brain experimented on by aliens, but for some reason I loved the book this time. I even went back and re-read it, just to see what I didn't like. Couldn't find anything.
I think it was just my state of mind the first time I read through it. I didn't know exactly what to expect.

[horatio616]

It's incredible how wrong one person can be with just one opinion. ;)

I will agree that it isn't a whole lot different from manga. But I don't so much care. Because it's good. In the same way that Japanese television is disassembled and reorganized for our consumption (Power Rangers, Godzilla, G-Force, etc.) Scott Pilgrim repackages the manga aesthetic to suit our culture. And the translation really works. We know these people.

Yeah, I loved that part, but just couldn't sign on for the Dragonball Z stuff. It would be like watching Gilmore Girls and all of a sudden they turn into Godzillas and eat people. (On second thought, that sounds pretty interesting.)

[fred]

I'd watch that.

[paper]

Loved what part? I was talking about it in general.

[xyzzy]

I'm also among the ranks of those who don't get this title. I read the first trade and that was a struggle.

I really, really dislike the main character. He's, what, in his mid-twenties and he's dating some high-school girl? Creepy and weird. On top of that, he's not even interesting. He hasn't accomplished anything and it doesn't look like he's going to.

I spent most of the book wanting to reach into the page so I could slap him and say "GROW UP!"

Yeah, no thanks.

[esophagus]

I have had this on my "to read" list for a long time now, and it just made it to the top. We'll see if it really does have anything to do with coming from "small town" life.

[paper]

It's almost as if he's got a slingshot in his back pocket and he and his friends have sex in the woods behind your house. Damn 20-somethings and their X-Box 64s!

[fred]

It's almost as if he's got a slingshot in his back pocket and he and his friends have sex in the woods behind your house. Damn 20-somethings and their X-Box 64s!

I knew it was them.

[horatio616]

I'm also among the ranks of those who don't get this title. I read the first trade and that was a struggle.

I really, really dislike the main character. He's, what, in his mid-twenties and he's dating some high-school girl? Creepy and weird. On top of that, he's not even interesting. He hasn't accomplished anything and it doesn't look like he's going to.

I spent most of the book wanting to reach into the page so I could slap him and say "GROW UP!"

Yeah, no thanks.

Yes! I thought the same thing. Twenty-three year-olds dating 17 year-olds is frowned upon, even here in Kentucky. (Thought I'd make the joke before anyone else had a chance.) It was easier to ignore because everybody looked like they were eight. Plus, he's a mooch. I didn't find him unlikeable though. I liked the characters in the book except the ex. I especially liked his roommate.

Also, does Amazon use deliver girls in Canada, or is that a conceit of the series?

[horatio616]

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/fredhosley/horatio.gif

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/fredhosley/paper.gif

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u116/fredhosley/fred.gif

Ha! Love 'em! I don't know why I still have Paris as my avatar. She's incredibly untalented as a porn actress. Oh well, at least she gave it the old college try!

[paper]

I always assumed that the Amazon delivery and the weird age discrepancy pseudo-dating thing were Canadian ideas.

[neb]

I just got vol. 2 and 3 yesterday from Amazon. Can't wait to read them.

[jaflanagan]

You should add a poll to this.

[dave-accampo]

I always assumed that the Amazon delivery and the weird age discrepancy pseudo-dating thing were Canadian ideas.

Didn't Brian Wood also do one or two series where the main character had an underage girlfriend?

[conorkilpatrick]

I find it fascinating that people think that dating between early 20s and late teens is unusual.

[esophagus]

Agreed, it's really not that big of a difference. Also, why would age difference be a Canadian thing? Not that I took offense, just never heard that, and don't particularly get it.

[kahunablair]

I find it fascinating that people think that dating between early 20s and late teens is unusual.

"Under 18" has a stigma about it.
I don't really have an issue about it in the book, because it's not like they're really dating.

On the other hand, if I found out my 17 year old sister was dating a guy in his 20s, they'd never find the body.

[xyzzy]

I find it fascinating that people think that dating between early 20s and late teens is unusual.

You know a lot of college grads who troll high schools for dates? Those 6 years are pretty important ones, maturity wise.

[dave-accampo]

Right. I personally don't think it's that big of a deal (purely in age difference), but legally, there's the statutory rape thing in the US. So we've got this "age of consent" line we've drawn, and that has a social impact.

I think the creepy aspect is something else. It's a more of a social behavior thing, as it suggests the idea of the guy who SHOULD have left high school behind him (as we're supposed to), still hanging around outside the school and cruising for girls.

That's just a stereotype, of course, but I think that's where the stigma comes from.

[esophagus]

You know a lot of college grads who troll high schools for dates? Those 6 years are pretty important ones, maturity wise.Okay, now I'm just curious, how far into his twentys is this guy? When I was in the tenth grade I dated people in the twelfth, which makes them in their second year of college now, and I don't think it would be all that awkward if we still were dating.

[horatio616]

You know a lot of college grads who troll high schools for dates? Those 6 years are pretty important ones, maturity wise.

I read that R Kelly used to do that in his 30s. I actually read this long before his latest legal problems.

A guy his age should really be too mature to date a high school girl, but then, some of the 23 year-old guys I've interacted with are still cared for by their moms so...


Scott's discovering this to be true, also, as evidenced by his boredom with their conversations. He's slowly realizing that he has no business with this high schooler. As I haven't read more than the first volume, I can't say for sure that this is where it's going...

I should have done a poll about this question instead!

p.s. Is Scott a hipster? ;)

[dave-accampo]

Scott's discovering this to be true, also, as evidenced by his boredom with their conversations. He's slowly realizing that he has no business with this high schooler. As I haven't read more than the first volume, I can't say for sure that this is where it's going...

yeah, it really becomes a moot point pretty quickly, honestly.

p.s. Is Scott a hipster? ;)

I see him as more of a slacker.

[jaflanagan]

He's 23. She's 17. It's not far enough so that it's creepy. It's just a little odd, and I think that is completely covered in the book. They make a point of bringing that up. And then...it doesn't matter, because it's dropped as a story point. He's hardly a child molester. My wife was 17 when she arrived for her freshman year of college (as was Mr. Kilpatrick). Had either of them dated a senior in any way, no one would have said anything.

Did any of you see Ghost World? You think the Scarlett Johanson in that movie couldn't have handled a 23 year old?

[conorkilpatrick]

All I'm saying is 23 year olds dating 17 year olds is not at all unusual so I didn't even think twice about it.

p.s. Is Scott a hipster? ;)

Not in the least. He's hip without trying at all. He's the polar opposite if a hipster.

[kahunablair]

Wow. I heard of the "Half your age plus Seven" rule before, but Wiki even has an article on it.
If you go by that, Scott can date as low as 18 and a half. So he's breaking that rule too.
The "half-your-age-plus-seven rule" is rule of thumb defining a mathematical formula to judge whether the age difference in an intimate relationship is socially acceptable.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Half_Your_Age_Plus_Seven_Graph.JPG

All that being said, I think the fact that society doesn't except pretty much EVERYTHING Scott does, makes it part of his charm.
The guy sleeps in a bed with a gay friend.
He doesn't have a job.
He's a 23 year old rocker-wanna-be.
He dates a 17 year old.

He's so darn, counter culture, that you have to like him.

[jimski]

I spent most of the book wanting to reach into the page so I could slap him and say "GROW UP!"
It may interest you to learn that Scott Pilgrim Gets It Together.

[esophagus]

Did any of you see Ghost World? You think the Scarlett Johanson in that movie couldn't have handled a 23 year old?
That's actually a really good example. Enid and Seymour are obviously worlds away from eachother age wise, but I don't think that's a really big contributing factor to why they're such an awkward couple. I'm totally speculating, as I haven't read Scott Pilgrim yet, but it sounds like that's kind of the case here. Akward, but not for the age reason.

[horatio616]

He's 23. She's 17. It's not far enough so that it's creepy. It's just a little odd, and I think that is completely covered in the book. They make a point of bringing that up. And then...it doesn't matter, because it's dropped as a story point. He's hardly a child molester. My wife was 17 when she arrived for her freshman year of college (as was Mr. Kilpatrick). Had either of them dated a senior in any way, no one would have said anything.

Did any of you see Ghost World? You think the Scarlett Johanson in that movie couldn't have handled a 23 year old?

I think the point of the Scott/Knives thing is that he was an immature 23 year-old and the relationship with Knives was a refelction of that. I suspect it was a deliberate choice by the writer. He was dating her because he hadn't grown up. You're right, it's not sick or perverted. Just weird.

[horatio616]

All I'm saying is 23 year olds dating 17 year olds is not at all unusual so I didn't even think twice about it.



Not in the least. He's hip without trying at all. He's the polar opposite if a hipster.

I was making a joking reference to that other polarizing thread.

[esophagus]

I was making a joking reference to that other polarizing thread.Damn. I was wondering how many people were going to answer before anyone figured that out.

Becca's a hipster.

[jaflanagan]

I think the point of the Scott/Knives thing is that he was an immature 23 year-old and the relationship with Knives was a refelction of that. I suspect it was a deliberate choice by the writer. He was dating her because he hadn't grown up. You're right, it's not sick or perverted. Just weird.

And I think you could say that was fairly acknowledged.

I'd be really curious if you would feel the same way if you read the second volume. The whole book won me over from that same reaction.

[luthor]

Ironically one of the answers in the poll, Hated it (http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/mallrats/hatedit.htm), is the name of a song(which appeared on the Mallrats soundtrack) by one of the bands referenced in the book(there's a Thrush Hermit (http://houseofhermit.tripod.com/) t-shirt in there somewhere).

Useless information brought to you by Luthor.

[six-gun]

Ha! Love 'em! I don't know why I still have Paris as my avatar. She's incredibly untalented as a porn actress. Oh well, at least she gave it the old college try!

I've always been curious about your avatar

[xyzzy]

All I'm saying is 23 year olds dating 17 year olds is not at all unusual so I didn't even think twice about it.


New York must be pretty different from California, because I would say it's pretty damn unusual. And potentially illegal. Definitely creepy.

Regardless, his peculiar dating habits aside, Scott Pilgrim's greatest sin is that he's not interesting. I guess my question was why should I care about some slacker loser who's never done anything with his life and the book provided no satisfactory answer.

[dave-accampo]

New York must be pretty different from California, because I would say it's pretty damn unusual. And potentially illegal. Definitely creepy.

Nah, I've lived in California my whole life, and I've known people who have dated in that range...it's not all that unusual. I do think there can be a social stigma attached, though.

[xyzzy]

Nah, I've lived in California my whole life, and I've known people who have dated in that range...it's not all that unusual. I do think there can be a social stigma attached, though.

I know people who have done it too. That doesn't make it normal or not creepy. I feel comfortable saying that the vast majority of adults do not date underage girls 6 or more years their junior.

[dave-accampo]

I know people who have done it too. That doesn't make it normal or not creepy. I feel comfortable saying that the vast majority of adults do not date underage girls 6 or more years their junior.

Well, you said it was "damn unusual" in California -- that's what I was referring to. I wasn't weighing in on the "normal" or "creepy" judgment call.

Yes, you're right about the statistical majority, but seeing as a number of us seem to have had at least second-hand experience with it, it doesn't strike me as "damn unusual." That's all.

[xyzzy]

Well, you said it was "damn unusual" in California -- that's what I was referring to. I wasn't weighing in on the "normal" or "creepy" judgment call.

Yes, you're right about the statistical majority, but seeing as a number of us seem to have had at least second-hand experience with it, it doesn't strike me as "damn unusual." That's all.

I'm not sure how you're defining unusual. Unusual mean that it's not the norm. Which you seem to agree with. Personally knowing one or two incidences doesn't make something not unusual. Let's say that there's a condition that only .5% of the population has. That's unusual. But if you know 200 people, you probably know someone who has it.

In my personal experience, I only know of one couple where he was in his 20s and she was 17 when they started dating. That makes it unusual to me.

[itsbecca]

Damn. I was wondering how many people were going to answer before anyone figured that out.

Becca's a hipster.

Hey maybe if I threw in some angry words we could get Bryan Lee O'Malley over here.

Unfortunatley, I haven't read the series. It was high up on my "To Read" list, but now this thread is confusing me. Likening it to Manga is a thumbs down (There is good manga, but the majority of what we have here in the states is meant for young girls back in japan. What is wrong with us?) Dating a highschooler is definitley weird (6 years isn't bad later in life, but at a young age is a huge difference).

BUT then I read this

The guy sleeps in a bed with a gay friend.
He doesn't have a job.
He's a 23 year old rocker-wanna-be.
He dates a 17 year old.
and I'm interested all over again.

[labor_days]

I don't think it's a big deal really. When you frame it as an adult trolling for underage girls, though technically true, it sounds a lot more sinister than it is.

There was a 5 year gap between me & my ex and I wouldn't say my 22 year old self was all that mature. Pretty common for 17-19 year old girls to date 20+ dudes.

[xyzzy]

I don't think it's a big deal really. When you frame it as an adult trolling for underage girls, though technically true, it sounds a lot more sinister than it is.

I don't think it's sinister. I just think it's creepy and weird. A girl in high school is (or at least should be) at an entirely different stage of life than a 23 year old.

[tad]

Did Scott even kiss the 17 year old? The relationship was not as creepy as this discussion makes it sound. It said more about Scott's huge level of slackerness - having a low maintenance "girlfriend" who dotes on him - than anything about his preferences.

And he stops dating her fairly soon. Wasn't it already over in Vol. 1?

[conorkilpatrick]

Did Scott even kiss the 17 year old? The relationship was not as creepy as this discussion makes it sound. It said more about Scott's huge level of slackerness - having a low maintenance "girlfriend" who dotes on him - than anything about his preferences.

And he stops dating her fairly soon. Wasn't it already over in Vol. 1?

That's a great point I was thinking about earlier. There is - and I could be wrong because it's been a while since I read Vol. 1- like a non-existent sexual aspect to their relationship. It's more like he tolerates Knives' infatuation because it's easier than breaking up with her, and as soon as he sees Romona, *BAM* he is done with Knives. This whole "17 year old girlfriend" thing is kind of a mountain out of a molehill scenario.

Becca, you should check it out, I'd be interested to see your thoughts.

[dave-accampo]

I'm not sure how you're defining unusual. Unusual mean that it's not the norm. Which you seem to agree with. Personally knowing one or two incidences doesn't make something not unusual. Let's say that there's a condition that only .5% of the population has. That's unusual. But if you know 200 people, you probably know someone who has it.

In my personal experience, I only know of one couple where he was in his 20s and she was 17 when they started dating. That makes it unusual to me.

Enh, it's not really debate-worthy. I'm not doing statistics, as I said. But this forum group is a fair random sampling of people, and a few of them have expressed at least a second experience with it. Thus, "pretty damn unusual" seemed a bit much.

I've known a couple people who have dated somewhere in that range. And if you take off the under-age aspect, I know LOTS of adults who are in relationships 6 or more years apart. So it doesn't seem THAT unusual to me. I did raise my eyebrows at it in the first Scott Pilgrim book, but it wasn't like "oh that's awfully unusual by California standards!" It was more like, "Oh, scott, that's not gonna end well!" ;)

[dave-accampo]

That's a great point I was thinking about earlier. There is - and I could be wrong because it's been a while since I read Vol. 1- like a non-existent sexual aspect to their relationship. It's more like he tolerates Knives' infatuation because it's easier than breaking up with her, and as soon as he sees Romona, *BAM* he is done with Knives. This whole "17 year old girlfriend" thing is kind of a mountain out of a molehill scenario.

yeah, you guys are right, of course. I think it just served as a launching point for a discussion about the stigma of dating a girl still in high school. It really plays out fairly innocuously in the book itself. I think if anything, it's just that first instance of "17" that means that the relationship has certain strings attached that 18 would not.

[xyzzy]

That's a great point I was thinking about earlier. There is - and I could be wrong because it's been a while since I read Vol. 1- like a non-existent sexual aspect to their relationship. It's more like he tolerates Knives' infatuation because it's easier than breaking up with her, and as soon as he sees Romona, *BAM* he is done with Knives. This whole "17 year old girlfriend" thing is kind of a mountain out of a molehill scenario.

I don't think I'm making a mountain out of it (though it is an interesting discussion topic). It's simply one aspect of the character that dovetails with his overall immature slacker-loser persona that I have no interest in reading about. I try to avoid such people in real life. No need to inflict them on my fiction.

[jaflanagan]

I don't think it's sinister. I just think it's creepy and weird. A girl in high school is (or at least should be) at an entirely different stage of life than a 23 year old.

This REALLY depends on the 23 year old in question. When I was 23, I had moved from Maine to California, graduated college, and was living on my own. Where I grew up in Maine, there's not a lot of difference between someone near the end of high school, and someone who's never done a thing since High School, except that one goes to school during the day, and the other is able to buy beer.

It really depends on where you're coming from. If you only look at it through your own cultural goggles, then it's one thing, but from someone else's POV, it's another.

[six-gun]

It's frowned upon by the girl's fellow high schoolers.

She's seen as a harlot, he's seen as pervy

I'm not saying it's right, but in every circumstance I've ever encountered that's how it's seen.


However I live in the Nation's armpit apparently so things may be different in your more civilized regions

[itsbecca]

That's a great point I was thinking about earlier. There is - and I could be wrong because it's been a while since I read Vol. 1- like a non-existent sexual aspect to their relationship. It's more like he tolerates Knives' infatuation because it's easier than breaking up with her, and as soon as he sees Romona, *BAM* he is done with Knives. This whole "17 year old girlfriend" thing is kind of a mountain out of a molehill scenario.

Becca, you should check it out, I'd be interested to see your thoughts.

It starting to seem like I might like it for similar reasons as to why I liked Youth in Revolt (prose). It can't be quite that silly though I'm sure. I'll pick it up. Thoughts soon.

[xyzzy]

This REALLY depends on the 23 year old in question. When I was 23, I had moved from Maine to California, graduated college, and was living on my own. Where I grew up in Maine, there's not a lot of difference between someone near the end of high school, and someone who's never done a thing since High School, except that one goes to school during the day, and the other is able to buy beer.

It really depends on where you're coming from. If you only look at it through your own cultural goggles, then it's one thing, but from someone else's POV, it's another.


I see what you're saying and I can understand why they'd gravitate towards high school girls, but it doesn't really make the overall situation less creepy/weird to me. Yes, okay. Someone who never gets a job after high school, doesn't further their education or improve themselves in any way might have more in common with a high school girl than a girl their own age, but I don't see that as a good thing.

[itsbecca]

Went back to my lcs to pick it up and this purchase spurred on the first time I have EVER had a conversation with my cbg. Apparently he's a fan. He commended my purchase. We spoke full sentences using words other than "Thanks" and "Have a good day". So that was exciting.

Then I hop in the car, open it up and the first words are "Scott Pilgrim is dating a high schooler" and I bursted out laughing for about two minutes straight. I'm about halfway through so more thoughts later.

[jaflanagan]

Alright, FINE! I admit it. My wife is 15!

[itsbecca]

Okay finished the first volume.

First, let's stop with the 17 year old nonsense because it's really not a factor in the book so the conversation here is basically off topic. IMO it should be thrown over to general if anyone wants to continue.

Now that that's out of the way... This book makes me laugh. Moments like "Well, obviously, one of us went to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters and one of us didn't." or "Those shoes are Mr. Silly's (http://dreme.co.uk/uploaded_images/silly-797745.jpg) shoes, Scott"... hit such an neglected spot in the corner of the funny section of my brain. Other lines play with language in a way kind of reminiscent of Buffy era Whedon-speak. I'm also amused by the random absurd events, that I had no idea would be part of this. I just hope they don't dominate the series later, I like that they just pop in unannounced.

Scott himself... he is kind of a nut, I don't know that I care for him in the way that I generally do the lead roles in many other books or shows that I watch or read (in that I inevitably fall for them on some level). But it's okay. He's very simple, very naive and kind of sweet. I'm alright with sidling into his world because the other, more on par with their age, characters ground me so I don't get to antsy for something not so emotionally retarded.

I admit it took me about 20 pages to get over the art and I still kind of have this feeling that while it's funny it's also written very... I'm not sure how to say it other than it struck me as very simple. I wonder if I'll see some evolution just within the series itself, since it's spanned a few years already right?

I'll pick up more this weekend probably.

[six-gun]

Okay finished the first volume.
First, let's stop with the 17 year old nonsense because it's really not a factor in the book so the conversation here is basically off topic. IMO it should be thrown over to general if anyone wants to continue.


I disagree with you in that, just because it didn't other you doesn't mean that it didn't bother anyone else (which it obviously did judging by the lengthy conversation) thinking so is a bit arrogant (pot calling the kettle black? ;))


I'm sure you didn't mean it to come off negatively, but it did just a bit.

[jaflanagan]

You sound about as conflicted as I was. I just couldn't quite wrap my head around it.

[itsbecca]

I disagree with you in that, just because it didn't other you doesn't mean that it didn't bother anyone else (which it obviously did judging by the lengthy conversation) thinking so is a bit arrogant (pot calling the kettle black? ;))


I'm sure you didn't mean it to come off negatively, but it did just a bit.

I promise times 10 I'm not meaning to be rude, but have you read it? Until you do I don't think you can really say if it plays a part of not. Several others have mentioned it doesn't. Xxyz was one of the largest proponents of the conversation and he hasn't read it. I'm not saying there's not worthy conversation, I certainly have an opinion on the topic, it would just be better suited in the general thread.

[xyzzy]

I promise times 10 I'm not meaning to be rude, but have you read it? Until you do I don't think you can really say if it plays a part of not. Several others have mentioned it doesn't. Xxyz was one of the largest proponents of the conversation and he hasn't read it. I'm not saying there's not worthy conversation, I certainly have an opinion on the topic, it would just be better suited in the general thread.

Um. Yes I have. I read the first volume and thought it was not good.

I made the simple statement that I thought it was creepy that he dated a high schooler and then a bunch of people disagreed with me and I responded. I'm happy to let it drop.

[itsbecca]

Um. Yes I have. I read the first volume and thought it was not good.

I made the simple statement that I thought it was creepy that he dated a high schooler and then a bunch of people disagreed with me and I responded. I'm happy to let it drop.

Whoopsy daisy. My apologies.

[six-gun]

I promise times 10 I'm not meaning to be rude, but have you read it?

I know you didn't :)

To answer your question no. I plan to buy the first volume this weekend

[itsbecca]

I know you didn't :)

To answer your question no. I plan to buy the first volume this weekend

And that's two copies this thread alone has sold. Cha Ching!

[esophagus]

I just read the book as well, and here's my thought on this (age thing included).

Scott Pilgrim isn't a man who never left his childhood, he's a man who is naturally drawn back to it. He moved out, he's in a band, he shops for himself, he's perfectly capable of doing his own thing. There's just a magnetism back to a simpler time, one that possibly came from the "big break-up" mentioned early on. It's why he dates a younger girl. There's a million times where he mentions it, or you can just tell through facial expression, that he himslef finds the age difference to be awkwards. It's just easier. While his "adult" friends define him dating someone as them being fully commited, and having sex, Knives thinks of it as holding hands, and riding the bus. It gives him one less thing in an overwhelming world to deal with. Whether we all find the age difference awkward or not is besides the point. It's the same reason he loves his music. While doing that he's fulfilling a childhood dream. He's happy, he's rocking, and he's the epitome of cool. It's youthful, and fun, and everything Scott is, not to mention everything he dreams of being. Perhaps I'm overanalyzing though, I've only finished the first half of the book, I just wanted to get my thoughts in.

As far as the book itself goes, I absolutely loved it. It was quirky and fun, and not "manga" at all. While there are a few similar qualities there, I think it was really just a really simplistic style that happened to come across that way. It fit great with the writing. I definitely plan on picking up the rest of the series.

[paper]

Sounds about right.

Eso, what is your definition of "manga?" As a style. If this isn't that.

[itsbecca]

Sounds about right.

Eso, what is your definition of "manga?" As a style. If this isn't that.

I really think the only similarity was the simplicity in the art style.

[esophagus]

Sounds about right.

Eso, what is your definition of "manga?" As a style. If this isn't that.
I see where people come from, and believe this definitely has manga influence. I just think it's a far cry, even from our more americanized manga.

http://theravenslair.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/blushingbb.jpg.w300h224.jpg

http://media.npr.org/books/summer/2007/graphic_novels/scottpilgrimexcerpt.jpg

[paper]

The pacing is very Japanese. Speeds up, slows down. Moments of emphasis. The labels too.

[itsbecca]

Okay I've only read like two manga series so really I shouldn't say anything.

Edit: Okay this may sound stupid, but I will say this. It doesn't have the cinematic pacing I've noticed in manga. To much talky talky. If you disagree you're probably right, because of my previous statement.

[paper]

I'm sorry I'm so stuck on this. We've established that it isn't manga. Now, what is manga? Like what are the attributes you associate with it. I'm just curious because I have no idea what the perception is.

I'm just gonna start a new thread.

[mikegraham6]

I voted that I haven't read it, but im disappointed that it says "I don't plan to" because I do.....:(

[kwok_talk]

I voted that I haven't read it, but im disappointed that it says "I don't plan to" because I do.....:(
Agreed. I'm curious to read it. It's just on the evergrowing list.

[paper]

Fast-track it, both of you! It's a quick read.

[horatio616]

And I think you could say that was fairly acknowledged.

I'd be really curious if you would feel the same way if you read the second volume. The whole book won me over from that same reaction.

I wouldn't be opposed to it. I guess Ron's enthusiasm had me all pumped up and I was a bit let down when I actually read it. It's kinda like my girlfriend's reaction to Army of Darkness after I'd spent a year-and-a-half talking about it. She was really disappointed.

[jaflanagan]

Isn't Ash a total slacker loser with no sense of direction, not to mention the fact that he's a complete coward? And doesn't that move make a total left turn from reality?

[horatio616]

Isn't Ash a total slacker loser with no sense of direction, not to mention the fact that he's a complete coward? And doesn't that move make a total left turn from reality?

Yeah but Ash said, "Give me some sugar, baby," and "I got news for you pal. Right now you ain't leadin' but two things: jack and shit. And jack left town." That pretty much trumps anything. Also, The Evil Dead trilogy isn't a 'relationship-y' story for the first 3/4 that turns into Dragonball Z at the end. However, they are similar in that both are quotable. If a story is quotable that goes a long way in my book. The longer this thread goes the more I rethink my position. Either I'm wrong or I'm being cyber-brainwashed somehow.

[jaflanagan]

One Of Us! One Of Us!

[xyzzy]

One Of Us! One Of Us!

Just me against the world, I guess.

[dave-accampo]

Just me against the world, I guess.

So you mean, like:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1932664122.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

:D

[itsbecca]

Picked up vol2 after work today and it seemed to lose some of it's sparkle. It's silly, yes, but that writing issue I mentioned seems to prevail. I don't know why I have such a hard time pinpointing it. Aside from the jokes the dialogue is so plain. I want to say that people don't talk like that, but I'm not entirely convinced that's true. And I might just sound pretentious. But maybe that is it. It seems like dumbed down conversation. Maybe.

And now I'm faltering on when I'm going to get vol 3 as I've heard (from my excited part-time cbg) that it's the weakest link in the series.

[telecarlos]

OK, so I'm not even gonna read the thread cuz I plan to get this book(s) soon. I will keep my expects low to avoid hypey-titis that happens due to constant praising of a said piece of art. I hate when signs are hyped to the point of unreachableness. Makes it harder to appreciate. To me, everything is just a book or whatever, if its better than what came before, cool; then its good. Hence me holding off on reading Watchmen. Looms so large in history that I need to kill off its big shadow before reading it, otherwise I will come off disappointed. What was my point again...?

[cam-]

I voted it's a'ght. Cause it was.

It seems people are missing what I think was done best in the book.

O'malley has a fantastic handle on initial attraction. THe emotions, confusion, and excitment of meeting someone, obsessing over them and then maybe having a shot.

He also handles the frustration and fear of knowing something has to end but not having the guts to do it really well. I mean we know Scott's gonna end it with Knives, but can any of you say you haven't struggled with dumping someone? Stuffed your head into a pillow and said ARGGGH? I have.

It's makes me pine for my pre-wedding days a little, back when I could find myself in those situations (now those sits are much more complicated, so I avoid them, if only I weren't so damned attractive, intelligent, and funny.)

ANYways, I've only read the first vol. so maybe it falls apart. But I enjoyed it alot and maybe should've voted more enthusiastically.

[itsbecca]

I just went back and listened to the Scott Pilgrim bit in the POW podcast (since i generally skip over bits about anything I haven't read). I'm definitley on with Josh. I do enjoy it, but am completley befuddled by it. BUT I'm very excited because I think they figured out about the writing what I've been having trouble with. It seems like he's not putting a lot of effort into. It's not like it's a bad thing, but it's there and it is in stark contrast to some of the really "smart" humor that I do enjoy. But it is funny. Now fine, I'll pick up 3 and 4 soon.

[paper]

I don't know that the writing is lazy, per se. It's just minimalist. The dialogue seems photo-real.

[cam-]

It's funny, I feel the same way about Kirkman's dialogue in the walking dead.

More weight to the things that are said.

[itsbecca]

I don't know that the writing is lazy, per se. It's just minimalist. The dialogue seems photo-real.

I wouldn't say lazy. Like Ron says effortless, which has a more positive conotation. Yet not entirely THAT positive. But it is very simple. And there you have it I've reverted to the same word I used in my first post. It's a different type of people. It's funny, but not in a witty banter type of way. In a cute way. In a an I'm not meaning to be funny way.

[paper]

Yeah, I think you can make it work either way. I think pairing bare bones dialogue with such a frantic, stylized storytelling style is pretty smart. It would be a bit too much if he tried for Monty Python.

If screenwriting's taught me anything, it's that it's not about amping up every element to the Nth degree. You have to be economical with your storytelling toolkit.

[itsbecca]

Yeah, I think you can make it work either way. I think pairing bare bones dialogue with such a frantic, stylized storytelling style is pretty smart. It would be a bit too much if he tried for Monty Python.

If screenwriting's taught me anything, it's that it's not about amping up every element to the Nth degree. You have to be economical with your storytelling toolkit.

It's not bad. It's just different. Which sounds trite, but really that's the trend humor has been following, so it's a really noticeable difference. It still made me laugh out loud. I mentioned some of my favorite lines. Vol 2 brought "Why didn't I pick that skateboard proficiency back in grade five?!?". I think when it's most noticeable is dialogue that isn't funny. Then I think a little bit to myself "Well that was little mundane". But I think the only reason I think that is because I bought the book with a mind to review it. So I had my critical eye open.

[zombox]

Well, I decided to check it out because they gave it such good reviews. However, I'm having a ton of trouble finding it. Amazon has the 1st book on hold until, I think, March.

[paper]

Do you have any examples of the mundane dialogue?

(sorry, I'm a dialogue nerd)

[itsbecca]

Do you have any examples of the mundane dialogue?

(sorry, I'm a dialogue nerd)

It was just an impression while reading, but let me take a look....


There's a lot of things I could use. I don't feel it's entirely fair to use Scott as an example, because it's kind of in his character but...

Scott: So I have to train by watching these movies and then go find him and find him.
Kim: What?!
Scott: It's a long story okay?? Read the book sometime.
Scott: Anyway, he's evil, and I have to fight him if I want to keep dating Ramona.
Kim: Oh, Yeah, your new girlfriend. How do you know all this anyway? Arey ou actually stalking the guy?
Scott: Wallace told me. Wallace knows everything.
Kim: Wallace who?
Scott: Wallace Wells! My cool gay roomate?
Kim: Oh right.

[horatio616]

Volume 4 made the "Must" list in this week's Entertainment Weekly.

[jaflanagan]

I liken that dialog more to a stylistic type, not unlike the dialog in a Wes Anderson movie, yet perhaps not as esoteric, but on that same scale.

[odds-bodkins]

I'm starting #4 now and my interest is starting to wane just a little bit... though, that may have something to do with the fantastic color pages upfront... going back to B&W after that is just cruel.

The strength of this title is still the dialogue. I haven't read pages this quickly in a long time. The art is what it is.

I don't find it so far out there either... the fight scenes are just a small part of the overall story and at this point, it has become the norm, so it doesn't catch me off guard anymore. To me, this is life fresh out of college and I remember that time vividly and can relate.

[mikegraham6]

Would colour help or hinder this series?

[esophagus]

Would colour help or hinder this series?I'd say help. It doesn't need color, or look bad in black and white, but it's certainly no Walking Dead, where black and white is the best option.

[zombox]

Well, I finally got the first volume. Having completed it... it wasn't bad.

The dialogue is stilted, but it is just one degree off what people in the lifestyle portrayed speak like. It is intended to be a mock up of adolescent to young adult 'Scene Life'. Having experienced this to a certain degree when I was younger... this is pretty close to how those folks roll.

The fight scene was funny, like a bad Power Rangers episode. It's a decent book, I'll continue to read it.

[luthor]

I just finished reading the second book...and I loved it more then the first. I swear parts of this book are based on people I know and experiences I lived through. The scene about the Hip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tragically_Hip) and Gordon Downie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Downie) was a semi regular thing for my group of friends for a few years. I can't wait for my store to get the rest in.

[jimski]

This is just the moment for this to resurface and take the place of the Star Wars argument on the main page.

[cam-]

I too just finished the 2nd trade, it's great stuff.

But of course for me it's like walking around my neighborhood. Lee's Palace!! It looks just like that!!

This guy could be my neighbor.

Wont you be my neighbor?

[luthor]

I think it really nails the feeling of Lee's Palace too. It's been years since I've been there(I think I saw Primus there about 6 years ago) but it was very much like it's portrayed in the book, clicky but not clicky.

[moneytime]

Oh, my! Why not just name the thread "Who Wants to Fight Me?"

Seriously, though, I seem to recall that the first time I heard about Scott Pilgrim on the iFanboy podcast, the person talking made comments similar to yours. Once the ex shows up, the series reveals itself for what it truly is, and you either say, "This is not what I signed on for; I expected Life and you gave me crack," or "now we're talking; let's go with this." It seems to be a pretty ironclad divider.

I probably would have had the same reraction as you, Horatio, but I heard the podcast and was expecting to hate that aspect of it. I think that's what saved it for me, to tell the truth. I still didn't love the ex showing up, but It didn't take me out of it like I thought it would and I was able to really enjoy it.
Funny how it works that way. :p

[neb]

I just finished the fourth volume and now I'm pissed...because I have to wait FOREVER for the next one to come out. **Tears**

[leland222-mac-com]

i have to say when i saw scott pilgrim on the shelf i barely even gave it a glance but after hearing good things i finally picked it up. needless to say i finished the first volume in one sitting and i immediately ordered the other volumes on amazon. this book really clicked with me. i find when i describe the book that it sounds completely awful but when i read the books the books completely works for me. o'malley's characters feel unique and he really has a handle on how they all speak and interact with one another which makes the book such a fun read. however, i'm a sucker for witty dialogue so maybe i'm drunk off of the super mario 3 reference in book one.

scott pilgrim sign me up.

[luthor]

I was on the Oni Press site yesterday and they have the Free Scott Pilgrim story from Free Comic Book Day available in .cbr format (http://www.onipress.com/downloads/oni_free_scott_pilgrim.cbr), if anyone is interested in checking it out.

[gungadin]

I just finished reading Volume 4. So amazing. I love this book and, like the iFanboys said, I can't really define WHY this book is so good... It's like this perfect balance of zany and action and surreality and romance and dialogue and pacing and characters... It's just so good... IMO, Volume 4 was the best but I think that's just cuz O'Malley really hit his stride by making it quirky and making it all balance so well...

But now I have to wait for the fifth one along with the rest of you... Depression...

[horatio616]

Okay, I finally get it. I picked up volume 2 this weekend on a whim and started reading it last night. I was unable to put it down and finished it in one sitting. I absolutely loved it. The concept of a young-adults-in-college dramedy with some martial arts thrown in sounds like a bad indy film or a manga I'd never read, but OMalley's dialogue is so good that you can't help but love it. I also love the random bits like when he lists the "hours of operation" for tourist spots or gives us the vital statistics when he introduces new characters. I had a ball reading this.

[conorkilpatrick]

Okay, I finally get it. I picked up volume 2 this weekend on a whim and started reading it last night. I was unable to put it down and finished it in one sitting. I absolutely loved it. The concept of a young-adults-in-college dramedy with some martial arts thrown in sounds like a bad indy film or a manga I'd never read, but OMalley's dialogue is so good that you can't help but love it. I also love the random bits like when he lists the "hours of operation" for tourist spots or gives us the vital statistics when he introduces new characters. I had a ball reading this.

Wow. Didn't see that coming.

[blakbyrd]

I voted "ambivalent".

[horatio616]

Wow. Didn't see that coming.

The more characters and exes that were thrown into the mix, the better I liked it. I also think that there was a better balance between the drama and the fantastical elements. I didn't get whiplash this time. I couldn't stop turning the pages and I was sad when I ran out of them. I guess that's a sign that I like it.

I will admit that because of the art style, I would get sometimes get confused as to who is who, but that's minor.

[gungadin]

Wow. Didn't see that coming.

I'm with Conor. I'm kinda shocked. Also, I found the second volume kinda rough, even though the opening chapter with Kim is my favorite in the series (Kim's my favorite character). Wow... just... wow...

[horatio616]

I'm with Conor. I'm kinda shocked. Also, I found the second volume kinda rough, even though the opening chapter with Kim is my favorite in the series (Kim's my favorite character). Wow... just... wow...

You know, that may have been the turning point for me. I like Kim better than Ramona.

[gungadin]

You know, that may have been the turning point for me. I like Kim better than Ramona.

My heart shattered into a million thousand little hearty pieces when I read that. One of the most simplistically heartbreaking things I've ever read in a comic.

[kahunablair]

Well, Horatio, glad to hear you are onboard. Even happier to hear you gave it another chance. That's a rare thing to see in us comic folk.

[horatio616]

Well, Horatio, glad to hear you are onboard. Even happier to hear you gave it another chance. That's a rare thing to see in us comic folk.

I'm just dying to find stuff out there that's not involved in a crossover. My dislike of them has forced me to branch out and try new things. I'm reading and enjoying stuff now that I never would have even tried before.

Just ordered volumes 3 and 4 through Amazon (via iFanboy, of course).

[xyzzy]

Wow. Didn't see that coming.

I still hate it, if that helps you maintain a sense of continuity.

Then again, I haven't read vol. 2. Maybe that would turn me around like Horatio.

[xyzzy]

Well, Horatio, glad to hear you are onboard. Even happier to hear you gave it another chance. That's a rare thing to see in us comic folk.


I actually disagree with this. My experience is that many comic book readers are like battered spouses. They'll read bad comic after bad comic because they love a character or a shared universe. "It's bad now, but I'm sure it'll get better soon."

[kahunablair]

I actually disagree with this. My experience is that many comic book readers are like battered spouses. They'll read bad comic after bad comic because they love a character or a shared universe. "It's bad now, but I'm sure it'll get better soon."

Well, I disagree with that.
They'll read bad comic after bad comic if they are attached to the series. Not if they pick up a book like Scott Pilgrim and are turned off by the first issue.

This isn't the same as the guy that reads X-Men in hopes that it will "get good" again.

[xyzzy]

Well, I disagree with that.
They'll read bad comic after bad comic if they are attached to the series. Not if they pick up a book like Scott Pilgrim and are turned off by the first issue.

This isn't the same as the guy that reads X-Men in hopes that it will "get good" again.

I'm not sure what the difference is. A second chance is a second chance. And my personal experience is that many comic book readers give out second chances like they were going out of style.

I think that being too willing to forgive a bad experience and giving a second chance is actually not a good thing, whether it's X-Men or Scott Pilgrim. The more ruthless consumers are, the better comics will be.

[kahunablair]

I'm not sure what the difference is. A second chance is a second chance. And my personal experience is that many comic book readers give out second chances like they were going out of style.
You don't see a difference between giving a series another try, and the continuation of buying an old series just hoping it gets better? ... ok then.

I think that being too willing to forgive a bad experience and giving a second chance is actually not a good thing, whether it's X-Men or Scott Pilgrim. The more ruthless consumers are, the better comics will be.
That's an awfully cynical outlook that I'm glad I don't share.

[xyzzy]

You don't see a difference between giving a series another try, and the continuation of buying an old series just hoping it gets better? ... ok then.

It's essentially the same thing - buying a product that you have previously disliked in the (unfounded) hope that the next iteration will be better.


That's an awfully cynical outlook that I'm glad I don't share.

It's not cynical at all. Cynics believe that self-interest motivates all decisions. I don't think that. In fact, quite the opposite. I'm saying that people who buy comics that they have previously disliked are acting against their own self-interest. You might say I'm an advocate of the free market and enlightened self-interest.

As far as comics go, what I think would be good is more first chances, particularly with indie books like Scott Pilgrim. The challenge is to get someone to try it in the first place, not to continue reading it after they didn't like the first volume. But because people have budgets pinned down, giving second chances to books that have let them down in the past, most comic consumers will never even read that first volume of Scott Pilgrim, and that really is a shame because even though I don't like it personally, it's clear that it has broad and strong appeal.

[labor_days]

Without putting words in Kahuna's mouth, I think he's saying the fans that buy X-Men or Batman regadless of quality often have a strong nostalgia for that character(s). There is a an attachment there that isn't necessarily the same for an idiosyncratic series one my try on a whim.

At least that's what he seems to be driving at.

(Sorry, if I am misreading you Kahuna.)

[kahunablair]

Without putting words in Kahuna's mouth, I think he's saying the fans that buy X-Men or Batman regadless of quality often have a strong nostalgia for that character(s). There is a an attachment there that isn't necessarily the same for an idiosyncratic series one my try on a whim.

At least that's what he seems to be driving at.

(Sorry, if I am misreading you Kahuna.)

Nope, you're absolutely right here Labor.
Obviously he isn't seeing it that way. It's cool. He's allowed his different opinions.

[xyzzy]

Without putting words in Kahuna's mouth, I think he's saying the fans that buy X-Men or Batman regadless of quality often have a strong nostalgia for that character(s). There is a an attachment there that isn't necessarily the same for an idiosyncratic series one my try on a whim.

At least that's what he seems to be driving at.

(Sorry, if I am misreading you Kahuna.)

No, I get that. I'm saying that the motive is irrelevant. Whether it's attachment to a character, peer pressure or just a whim, buying a comic that you have disliked previously is a bad decision, generally speaking.

[jaflanagan]

There's a difference between going and trying something you had previously disliked before (such as me, with Fables), and going back to a book which you grew to dislike. Fables is the same thing, but an ongoing book changes radically over time, such as when a creative team switches.

[xyzzy]

Nope, you're absolutely right here Labor.
Obviously he isn't seeing it that way. It's cool. He's allowed his different opinions.

Well, talk me through it.

Let's lay out two scenarios.

1. Long time reader of X-men reads the first issue of a new arc. He thinks it is terrible. Should he buy the next issue?

2. Reader buys the first volume of Blue Monday from Oni. He thinks it is terrible. Should he buy the next volume?

In my opinion, the answer to both is no for the same fundamental reason. But you seem to think that the answer to 2 should be yes. Why?

[gungadin]

There's a difference between going and trying something you had previously disliked before (such as me, with Fables), and going back to a book which you grew to dislike. Fables is the same thing, but an ongoing book changes radically over time, such as when a creative team switches.

Bouncing off of this: It's also interesting to note that, in my opinion, Scott Pilgrim just gets better as it goes on. I thought the fourth volume was the best and as O'Malley sinks into this world, he just gets better.

Besides, I don't think Scott Pilgrim is like most other comics like Batman or the X-Men. Those books are heavily serialized and have lulls and swells in quality. Scott Pilgrim is more akin to Fables or Y: The Last Man with a very consistent creative team that is only telling one large story.

[xyzzy]

There's a difference between going and trying something you had previously disliked before (such as me, with Fables), and going back to a book which you grew to dislike. Fables is the same thing, but an ongoing book changes radically over time, such as when a creative team switches.

Yeah, I get how the book can change with different creative teams, but the thing is that many people (in my experience) buy all the issues of the book of a creative team they hate while waiting for the new team to come on. And then if they don't like that team, again, they keep buying waiting for the next team. Now, I'm not saying that this describes all or even a majority of comic book consumers, but does describe a good chunk, from what I've seen.

[horatio616]

Well, talk me through it.

Let's lay out two scenarios.

1. Long time reader of X-men reads the first issue of a new arc. He thinks it is terrible. Should he buy the next issue?

2. Reader buys the first volume of Blue Monday from Oni. He thinks it is terrible. Should he buy the next volume?

In my opinion, the answer to both is no for the same fundamental reason. But you seem to think that the answer to 2 should be yes. Why?

The correct answer to both questions is "yes or no; whatever the reader wants. It's his or her dime. They shouldn't have to justify what they read and why."

I'm a Darwinist when it comes to comics. If it was meant to survive, it will.

[xyzzy]

The correct answer to both questions is "yes or no; whatever the reader wants. It's his or her dime. They shouldn't have to justify what they read and why."

I'm a Darwinist when it comes to comics. If it was meant to survive, it will.

Of course people can do whatever they want. That's not in dispute. Nor do they have to justify it to me.

On the other hand, I have opinions about those decisions and I like to voice them.

[xyzzy]

Bouncing off of this: It's also interesting to note that, in my opinion, Scott Pilgrim just gets better as it goes on. I thought the fourth volume was the best and as O'Malley sinks into this world, he just gets better.

Besides, I don't think Scott Pilgrim is like most other comics like Batman or the X-Men. Those books are heavily serialized and have lulls and swells in quality. Scott Pilgrim is more akin to Fables or Y: The Last Man with a very consistent creative team that is only telling one large story.

But don't you think, then, that because it's a consistent story from one team, that there's even less of a reason to give it a second chance than you might an ongoing?

[gungadin]

But don't you think, then, that because it's a consistent story from one team, that there's even less of a reason to give it a second chance than you might an ongoing?

It's a six part story. To say it's going to be the best it's been in the first outing is shortsighted. There's stuff like that, but I think everyone here who likes it says it just gets better. It takes time for people to hit their creative stride. Look at Powers. Powers right now is perhaps the best it's ever been. Same with prose like Harry Potter. The fifth and seventh books are easily the best of the series. That's not saying the early ones aren't good, but creators get better as time goes on.

[xyzzy]

It's a six part story. To say it's going to be the best it's been in the first outing is shortsighted. There's stuff like that, but I think everyone here who likes it says it just gets better. It takes time for people to hit their creative stride. Look at Powers. Powers right now is perhaps the best it's ever been. Same with prose like Harry Potter. The fifth and seventh books are easily the best of the series. That's not saying the early ones aren't good, but creators get better as time goes on.

I'm not saying that it's going to be at its peak in the very beginning, but if you've read one volume, you should have a pretty good idea of what you're getting into. There generally aren't radical shifts when you have a creator owned project like this. If someone didn't like the basic premise of Powers v. 1, even if we stipulate that the fifth volume is twice as good, that's still not a very good reason for that person to buy it.

If someone were to say, I kind of liked v.1, but I'm not sure whether I should continue, then, sure that person might have good reason to buy if there are assurances that the overall quality improves over time. But if someone actively disliked the first volume? I seriously doubt that a gradual quality improvement would change that assessment for most people.

[gungadin]

I'm not saying that it's going to be at its peak in the very beginning, but if you've read one volume, you should have a pretty good idea of what you're getting into. There generally aren't radical shifts when you have a creator owned project like this. If someone didn't like the basic premise of Powers v. 1, even if we stipulate that the fifth volume is twice as good, that's still not a very good reason for that person to buy it.

Well it's possible the person wants to give it a second chance. I didn't like Watchmen the first time I read it. I thought it was overyhyped and really not nearly as good as other people said it was. But then I went back and reread it after thinking about it for a long time and I began to notice all the intricacies of what made it so great. It's possible that someone was just confused or in a bad mood or missed the point the first time. It's like being a teacher and grading twelve papers in a row. Do you really think that twelfth paper has as "fair" a grade as the first? People are biased and are not incapable of being entirely objective about their subjectivity every time.

[xyzzy]

Well it's possible the person wants to give it a second chance. I didn't like Watchmen the first time I read it. I thought it was overyhyped and really not nearly as good as other people said it was. But then I went back and reread it after thinking about it for a long time and I began to notice all the intricacies of what made it so great. It's possible that someone was just confused or in a bad mood or missed the point the first time. It's like being a teacher and grading twelve papers in a row. Do you really think that twelfth paper has as "fair" a grade as the first? People are biased and are not incapable of being entirely objective about their subjectivity every time.


Sure, I can understand that. If you honestly think that your initial assessment was in error, then a second look would be good. But in my experience, 9 times out of 10, initial reactions are accurate. I spent a lot of money on books like 100 bullets trying to see what others saw before I realized that I was not acting rationally.

[valoharth]

Sure, I can understand that. If you honestly think that your initial assessment was in error, then a second look would be good. But in my experience, 9 times out of 10, initial reactions are accurate. I spent a lot of money on books like 100 bullets trying to see what others saw before I realized that I was not acting rationally.

Maybe it's just the enjoyment of buying the book. Like Mark Twain once said, even the worst pizza you've ever had was still good because at the end of the day, it was a pizza.

Basicly what he was saying, pizza is a good food and its hard to mess it up. Same goes for comic books, hard to mess them up. Granted you might not like Anchovies on you're pizza but its still damn tasty if you just peel them off. Take the bad elements out of a comic book and you will be left with something, good art, good dialog, good story, or in Ron's case great paper quality.

[horatio616]

Maybe it's just the enjoyment of buying the book. Like Mark Twain once said, even the worst pizza you've ever had was still good because at the end of the day, it was a pizza.

Basicly what he was saying, pizza is a good food and its hard to mess it up. Same goes for comic books, hard to mess them up. Granted you might not like Anchovies on you're pizza but its still damn tasty if you just peel them off. Take the bad elements out of a comic book and you will be left with something, good art, good dialog, good story, or in Ron's case great paper quality.

Comics are like bjs and pizza.

[labor_days]

Even when they're bad, they're good?

[xyzzy]

Huh. To me bad comics are just bad.

For that matter, I've also had some pretty shitty pizza that was not redeemed by the fact that it was pizza.

[gungadin]

But even in the bad comics I can always find something redeeming about it, be it a good line or panel or angle or something. There's always that one thing that can make it not "terrible" and "bad comics."

[xyzzy]

But even in the bad comics I can always find something redeeming about it, be it a good line or panel or angle or something. There's always that one thing that can make it not "terrible" and "bad comics."

I guess, for me, one good panel in 22 pages is still a terrible comic.

[gungadin]

I guess, for me, one good panel in 22 pages is still a terrible comic.

*sigh* I'm not saying one panel out of anywhere from 100-150 panels makes it not a terrible comic. I didn't say that. But in every pulpy mass of awful there's always at least one thing that makes it not "COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY 100% BAD AND TERRIBLE".

But that's just me, and when I need to be I can be vehemently optimistic.

[xyzzy]

*sigh* I'm not saying one panel out of anywhere from 100-150 panels makes it not a terrible comic. I didn't say that. But in every pulpy mass of awful there's always at least one thing that makes it not "COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY 100% BAD AND TERRIBLE".

But that's just me, and when I need to be I can be vehemently optimistic.

There are so many people doing great and wonderful things with comics that I guess I just don't feel the need to spend a lot of time going over the bad ones or spending more money on them to figure out how they might suck less.

[kahunablair]

There are so many people doing great and wonderful things with comics that I guess I just don't feel the need to spend a lot of time going over the bad ones or spending more money on them to figure out how they might suck less.

That's understandable.
Not to be an ass, but why are you wasting so much time in a thread about a product you feel is subpar?

[xyzzy]

That's understandable.
Not to be an ass, but why are you wasting so much time in a thread about a product you feel is subpar?

Because I read it and I like to talk about comics?

Also, it's far more interesting to talk to about things where you disagree with someone than where you think the same thing. I mean, you can only go so far with saying "me too."

[esophagus]

Well, talk me through it.

Let's lay out two scenarios.

1. Long time reader of X-men reads the first issue of a new arc. He thinks it is terrible. Should he buy the next issue?

2. Reader buys the first volume of Blue Monday from Oni. He thinks it is terrible. Should he buy the next volume?

In my opinion, the answer to both is no for the same fundamental reason. But you seem to think that the answer to 2 should be yes. Why?

Scenario One:
Good issue, mediocre issue, bad issue, bad issue, bad issue, bad issue, bad issue, etc. No sense in continuing what you have watched deteriorate. You can always revisit it if things step up. Also, we're talking about a heavily serialized comic. If you missed thirty issues, and caught a new creator, you should still be okay.

Scenario Two:
Bad issue. That's it. You don't know if it is going to get better, stay the same, get worse. It's like walking out of a movie because the first five minutes didn't interest you. Also, this book has one steady creator. If you skip book one and go back at book five, you'll have missed out. It will seem awful, because you'll be lost. Why not give the continuing plot a chance, in the hopes that it just wasn't as good as it could have been.

[xyzzy]

Scenario Two:
Bad issue. That's it. You don't know if it is going to get better, stay the same, get worse. It's like walking out of a movie because the first five minutes didn't interest you. Also, this book has one steady creator. If you skip book one and go back at book five, you'll have missed out. It will seem awful, because you'll be lost. Why not give the continuing plot a chance, in the hopes that it just wasn't as good as it could have been.

1) It's not like walking out after the first 5 minutes of a movie at all, because you already paid for the entire movie. With a comic, I have to make additional investments with each issue.

2) You're right that a person wouldn't know for certain whether the next issue will be better, worse or the same. And unless you had some reason to believe that it was going to be better, purchasing another comic seems incredibly foolish to me, because the other two out of the three possibilities are not good for a comic that starts bad.

[esophagus]

It seems to come down to you being incredibly pessimistic, something none of us really share with you, and something I don't care to discuss or change. Oh well.

[xyzzy]

It seems to come down to you being incredibly pessimistic, something none of us really share with you, and something I don't care to discuss or change. Oh well.

It has absolutely nothing to do with pessimism. It's acting rationally based on past events. Creative team A publishes comic X, issue #1. It's bad. That's our one data point. The most likely outcome for the next issue by the same creative team on the same subject is that it will be similar to the first. Sure you can hope that the next one will be good, but what's that based on?

I buy a lot of comics. Most of which are first issues or first trades. I do so because I hope that they will be good (optimism). I have no good data on them either way. But once I do have a data point of one bad issue or trade, I move on to another. I don't understand this idea that you should stick with it because it might get better. I mean, a lot of things might happen, but unless there's some reason to think that they will, it's not reasonable to act as if they will.

Take a chance, sure. But once you get burned, why keep putting your hand in the fire?

[kahunablair]

Because I read it and I like to talk about comics?

Also, it's far more interesting to talk to about things where you disagree with someone than where you think the same thing. I mean, you can only go so far with saying "me too."

I'm all for discussing things we all disagree on. I just don't understand the fact that you're taking the stand that if something "sucks" you'll drop it, yet you continue to post in this thread. It seems like you just enjoy, not so much the "talking" as the constant arguing. You’ve made your point that you don’t like to spend your time/money on things that you find to be of poor quality, yet here you are.

You aren’t arguing over the merit of this series, you are arguing about why someone shouldn’t give a series/book/anything another shot.
It almost, and forgive me if I'm wrong, seems to me that you're being confrontational for confrontational’s sake.

[esophagus]

It has absolutely nothing to do with pessimism. It's acting rationally based on past events. Creative team A publishes comic X, issue #1. It's bad. That's our one data point. The most likely outcome for the next issue by the same creative team on the same subject is that it will be similar to the first. Sure you can hope that the next one will be good, but what's that based on?

I buy a lot of comics. Most of which are first issues or first trades. I do so because I hope that they will be good (optimism). I have no good data on them either way. But once I do have a data point of one bad issue or trade, I move on to another. I don't understand this idea that you should stick with it because it might get better. I mean, a lot of things might happen, but unless there's some reason to think that they will, it's not reasonable to act as if they will."I'll give this at the very least a second chance. It could be good." - Optimistic

"I have no reason to believe this will improve. I'm not going to try this. What if I pay money and don't enjoy it?" - Pessimistic (you)

[esophagus]

It almost, and forgive me if I'm wrong, seems to me that you're being confrontational for confrontational’s sake.
You would not be alone in that assumption, and this would not be the first time he came off in such a way.

[xyzzy]

"I'll give this at the very least a second chance. It could be good." - Optimistic

"I have no reason to believe this will improve. I'm not going to try this. What if I pay money and don't enjoy it?" - Pessimistic (you)

Do you buy every comic in previews? Or do you pick and choose based on which ones you think you will enjoy the most.

Does that make you a pessimist?

[gungadin]

I'm not even arguing anymore. This ain't worth it at all.

[esophagus]

Do you buy every comic in previews? Or do you pick and choose based on which ones you think you will enjoy the most.

Does that make you a pessimist?Nope, that means I'm not rich. If I could afford to, I would buy them all.

However, when someone says to me "This is excellent", I'll buy it. If I hate it, but I have multiple people telling me that it's even better with the second one, including others who disliked the first, then I'll try it again. Because I'll be optimistic, and give it the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not telling you your view is wrong. I'm telling you I don't think in such a way, because it seems negative.

Forgive me for not finding the fun in this, but I'm done.

[xyzzy]

I'm all for discussing things we all disagree on. I just don't understand the fact that you're taking the stand that if something "sucks" you'll drop it, yet you continue to post in this thread. It seems like you just enjoy, not so much the "talking" as the constant arguing. You’ve made your point that you don’t like to spend your time/money on things that you find to be of poor quality, yet here you are.

You aren’t arguing over the merit of this series, you are arguing about why someone shouldn’t give a series/book/anything another shot.
It almost, and forgive me if I'm wrong, seems to me that you're being confrontational for confrontational’s sake.

Well, I enjoy arguing the merits of a position. I mean, it is one of my favorite things. It's why I became a trial attorney. I think that the adversarial system is one of the greatest things every created.

If you don't want to talk about this with me, you can just ignore me. But if you respond to my arguments with your own, I'll respond in kind. I don't think that I've been rude or have said anything objectionable.

I think this is an interesting converstaion. Others may disagree.

[esophagus]

It's why I became a trial attorney.Ha! That explains so much.

[gungadin]

Ha! That explains so much.

It's funny. I thought the same thing.

[itsbecca]

Well, I enjoy arguing the merits of a position. I mean, it is one of my favorite things. It's why I became a trial attorney. I think that the adversarial system is one of the greatest things every created.

If you don't want to talk about this with me, you can just ignore me. But if you respond to my arguments with your own, I'll respond in kind. I don't think that I've been rude or have said anything objectionable.

I think this is an interesting converstaion. Others may disagree.

It seems you're an intelligent and logical person, and I assume your profession has given you a keen sense of judging a person's tone. I think it would be prudent to let yourself stew in the dialog of the board and understand the tone that we keep a little more clearly. There seems to be a wide gap between what you view as confrontational and what the majority of us do.

[labor_days]

Oh I don't know, Becca. I enjoy kicking around an issue with Xyzzy.

What's the point of stating an opinion publicly if you are unwilling to defend or at the least, explain your position? Public debate is good.

As long as it is civil, there is no need to get huffy when taken to task or otherwise engaged in debate.

[xyzzy]

It seems you're an intelligent and logical person, and I assume your profession has given you a keen sense of judging a person's tone. I think it would be prudent to let yourself stew in the dialog of the board and understand the tone that we keep a little more clearly. There seems to be a wide gap between what you view as confrontational and what the majority of us do.

Well, I've been posting for over a year and lurking for longer than that, so I'm not sure how much stewing I need to do.

Honestly, I think that other people may be having a harder time reading my tone than I am theirs. I'm confrontational, sure, but in a friendly way. I'm not angry or insulting. 99% of the time, I'm just trying to see where an idea leads.

[itsbecca]

Oh I don't know, Becca. I enjoy kicking around an issue with Xyzzy.

What's the point of stating an opinion publicly if you are unwilling to defend or at the least, explain your position? Public debate is good.

As long as it is civil, there is no need to get huffy when taken to task or otherwise engaged in debate.

Of course you do. He's your textual doppleganger.

I have no problem with dissenting opinions, or with debate. I think it's just important to understand what is going to be viewed as friendly and what is going to be viewed as combative.

[xyzzy]

Of course you do. He's your textual doppleganger.

I have no problem with dissenting opinions, or with debate. I think it's just important to understand what is going to be viewed as friendly and what is going to be viewed as combative.

To me those things aren't mutually exclusive. It's like sparring. We're not fighting for real, we're just exercising the old brain muscles.

[xyzzy]

Oh I don't know, Becca. I enjoy kicking around an issue with Xyzzy.

What's the point of stating an opinion publicly if you are unwilling to defend or at the least, explain your position? Public debate is good.

As long as it is civil, there is no need to get huffy when taken to task or otherwise engaged in debate.

Everything you just wrote there is completely wrong! Defend yourself!

[itsbecca]

Well, I've been posting for over a year and lurking for longer than that, so I'm not sure how much stewing I need to do.

Honestly, I think that other people may be having a harder time reading my tone than I am theirs. I'm confrontational, sure, but in a friendly way. I'm not angry or insulting. 99% of the time, I'm just trying to see where an idea leads.

Well I suppose having a keen ability to argue a point does not necessarily correlate to an ability to read others. May I offer one suggestion then? When more than one person calls your approach combative, you're probably arguing harsher than they'd like. There's way to debate while still appearing open to the other persons ideas. I think that's what we're missing here. The goal is not to win, the goal is to come to a shared understanding.

[labor_days]

Of course you do. He's your textual doppleganger.

I have no problem with dissenting opinions, or with debate. I think it's just important to understand what is going to be viewed as friendly and what is going to be viewed as combative.
Yeah, but ya'know an intellectual circle jerk is not very fruitful.

Highs fives and backslapping is great and all. But you need some rigor applied every now and then.

Anywho, I like Scott Pilgrim. Lots.

[itsbecca]

Yeah, but ya'know an intellectual circle jerk is not very fruitful.

Highs fives and backslapping is great and all. But you need some rigor applied every now and then.

Anywho, I like Scott Pilgrim. Lots.

When in Rome...

[kahunablair]

Yeah, but ya'know an intellectual circle jerk is not very fruitful.

Highs fives and backslapping is great and all. But you need some rigor applied every now and then.

Anywho, I like Scott Pilgrim. Lots.

I think that's the problem though, brother. I don't think the dissent is the issue.
When things are stated in such a way that implies superiority, how can anyone take the arguement seriously. I don't care if it's meant or not. The conversation in this thread seems to have a more "I feel this way, you are wrong because I said so vibe."
Like I said earlier, if I'm reading it wrong, I apologize.
I just find it funny that multiple people all seem to read things the same way.

[kahunablair]

When in Rome...

I've always wanted to go to Rome. Maybe get a Gyro or two and snack by the ruins.

[gungadin]

I've always wanted to go to Rome. Maybe get a Gyro or two and snack by the ruins.

Isn't the Gyro a Greek food?

Not that I don't think the Romans stole from the Greeks... and... everywhere else...

[xyzzy]

Well I suppose having a keen ability to argue a point does not necessarily correlate to an ability to read others. May I offer one suggestion then? When more than one person calls your approach combative, you're probably arguing harsher than they'd like. There's way to debate while still appearing open to the other persons ideas. I think that's what we're missing here. The goal is not to win, the goal is to come to a shared understanding.

There is no "right" or "wrong" on most of these matters and there's no impartial third party to declare a "winner." I'm not sure what "shared understanding" is.

In my opinion, the only way to find out if a position is any good is to try to tear it down. Weak arguments will collapse. Strong arguments get stronger.

[xyzzy]

I think that's the problem though, brother. I don't think the dissent is the issue.
When things are stated in such a way that implies superiority, how can anyone take the arguement seriously. I don't care if it's meant or not. The conversation in this thread seems to have a more "I feel this way, you are wrong because I said so vibe."
Like I said earlier, if I'm reading it wrong, I apologize.
I just find it funny that multiple people all seem to read things the same way.

I'm not sure about superiority. Obviously I think that the way I do things is the best way. If I didn't, I'd do things differently. But I don't think that it makes me better than other people. After all, I could be wrong. It's been known to happen. All throughout this conversation I've deliberately thrown qualifiers like that in there. "I think" "I guess" "it's my position" in an effort to make it clear that I'm only stating my own opinion and not some sort of declaration of fact. I don't know how to make it more clear.

[kahunablair]

I don't know how to make it more clear.
Obviously.

[itsbecca]

There is no "right" or "wrong" on most of these matters and there's no impartial third party to declare a "winner." I'm not sure what "shared understanding" is.

In my opinion, the only way to find out if a position is any good is to try to tear it down. Weak arguments will collapse. Strong arguments get stronger.

Semantics friend. IF there is a good argument there is necessarily a bad one. You're trying to show that yours is good and theirs is bad. Am I wrong?

What I'm trying to say is that on a message board such as this, or heck let's not even beat around the bush. On THIS message board we've created a very friendly and very comfortable atmosphere. There's not a whole lot of room for argumentativeness in such an environment. As I've said we also love differing opinions. Yet, when we discuss them we don't try to prove our opinion stronger than someone else's. Rather we discuss the points so that we understand the other point of view. I suppose it's difficult to break it down like this, it's really best understood through reading people's reactions. Unfortunately, that's not something I'd consider myself adept enough to teach.

[xyzzy]

Semantics friend. IF there is a good argument there is necessarily a bad one. You're trying to show that yours is good and theirs is bad. Am I wrong?

Well, yes you are. It's not like there's one good argument and one bad for every issue. There are many good and bad arguments. There can be good arguments opposite each other. There almost always are. Vigorous discussion helps us see which ones are good and which ones are bad. Obviously, yes, I'd like to think that the ones I present are good, but if someone else can tear it down, then it wasn't.

[itsbecca]

Well, yes you are. At the end of a good discussion, both arguments are stronger. It's not like there's one good argument and one bad for every issue. There are many good and bad arguments. There can be good arguments opposite each other. There almost always are.

Please look at the rest of my post, because truly it was the more important part.

[paper]

What did I miss?

[xyzzy]

Please look at the rest of my post, because truly it was the more important part.

I read it, but I didn't want to respond to it because I was afraid you would find it dismissive and confrontational.

Basically, I think that if you don't engage in some degree of adversarial discussion, your understanding of other people's positions and even of your own psotion is somewhat shallow. If you don't challenge other people to think of why they hold a position and on what basis, and are not similarly challenged, then you don't really fully understand them.

[xyzzy]

What did I miss?

One of the best threads ever.

Or worst, depending on who you ask.

Also, everybody hates me (except Labor).

[labor_days]

I think that's the problem though, brother. I don't think the dissent is the issue.
When things are stated in such a way that implies superiority, how can anyone take the argument seriously. I don't care if it's meant or not. The conversation in this thread seems to have a more "I feel this way, you are wrong because I said so vibe."
Like I said earlier, if I'm reading it wrong, I apologize.
I just find it funny that multiple people all seem to read things the same way.
No, no. I understand where you guys are coming from. Just thought I put it out there that the nature of a public web forum invites debate. As long as it's civil, it's perfectly alright to argue this or that point. No need to shrink from it.

I'm not keeping track of the particulars of this debate here. So, if it has gotten out of hand- then that would be unfortunate. However, in the abstract, I'd like to think we can have a good, intelligent and rigorous conversation about a cartoon character that battles school girl ninjas for XP.

[itsbecca]

I read it, but I didn't want to respond to it because I was afraid you would find it dismissive and confrontational.

Basically, I think that if you don't engage in some degree of adversarial discussion, your understanding of other people's positions and even of your own psotion is somewhat shallow. If you don't challenge other people to think of why they hold a position and on what basis, and are not similarly challenged, then you don't really fully understand them.

I just find myself incapable of making you see that there is a difference between attacking someone and disagreeing with them. Surely you can see that if people supposedly "hate" you, then something is wrong with your interaction with them? Can we even agree on that small, small base of a point?

Labor is a fantastic example by the way. He has a way about him that can easily make his appearance turn from jovial aristocrat to pompous... dick. Completely unintentionally on his part of course. We've been working on him and slowly... slowly but surely he has become fit for Ifanboy society. Perhaps you just need another year?

[labor_days]

Becca, speaks truth. I used to be a "pompous ass". But I've mellowed to "pompous dick" over time.

[itsbecca]

Becca, speaks truth. I used to be a "pompous ass". But I've mellowed to "pompous dick" over time.

And I assume you maintain your same persona on the other board you frequent? It's just all about setting, all about setting!

Believe it or not the past two boards I was a regular on I was renowned for... basically kicking everyone's ass consistently on any issue that would present itself. There was constant and amusing contention filled with endlessly embellished and gruesome insults. My most recent nickname was "Ice Cunt" and it was meant entirely as a compliment. It's fun, but I didn't run and attack this board with the same MO. Clearly it would not have meshed with the mood here. It's all about setting.

I love debate. Obviously, or I would not be posting in this thread still.

[xyzzy]

I just find myself incapable of making you see that there is a difference between attacking someone and disagreeing with them. Surely you can see that if people supposedly "hate" you, then something is wrong with your interaction with them? Can we even agree on that small, small base of a point?

Not really, because if anybody actually hates me based on a comic book message board, I think they're probably taking it a bit too seriously.

Also, I don't attack people. Can you point out where I've made any ad hominem attacks? I go after their positions. Agressively, sure, but it's not personal.

To me, disagreeing with someone just means that you accept that you have differing opinions and move on. You're not going to get a deeper understanding from that.

[conorkilpatrick]

If Scott Pilgrim were reading this thread, he'd make this face:

http://www.chromewaves.net/images/interface/20070817scottPilgrim.jpg

[labor_days]

And I assume you maintain your same persona on the other board you frequent? It's just all about setting, all about setting!

Believe it or not the past two boards I was a regular on I was renowned for... basically kicking everyone's ass consistently on any issue that would present itself. There was constant and amusing contention filled with endlessly embellished and gruesome insults...
Heh. Boards. I frequent many. Even ran a few. I am a shut in. Basically.

But yes, that is very lucid point you bring up. And I agree with you.

I don't talk music or politics here. For I've never judged a man by the books on his shelf but by the records next to his turntable. Way too strident about those subjects to have a discussion with laymen without flipping my lid. So I keep that type of discussion to the communities occupied by other nerds like me that memorized the track sequence of Metal Box as it was printed in the UK.

Know your message board and post accordingly.

[itsbecca]

Not really, because if anybody actually hates me based on a comic book message board, I think they're probably taking it a bit too seriously.

Also, I don't attack people. Can you point out where I've made any ad hominem attacks? I go after their positions. Agressively, sure, but it's not personal.

To me, disagreeing with someone just means that you accept that you have differing opinions and move on. You're not going to get a deeper understanding from that.

Hate was your word, not mine. I used quotes to express that. What a fantastic example of your complete inability to understand people. At all.

But in respect to Conor I am bowing out of this very, very much off topic debacle.

[xyzzy]

Hate was your word, not mine. I used quotes to express that. What a fantastic example of your complete inability to understand people. At all.

But in respect to Conor I am bowing out of this very, very much off topic debacle.

Well, I guess you're gone, but I understood you perfectly well. You were saying that, based on my previous statement, it was clear that I understood that I rubbed people the wrong way, and would I therefore concede that there was something wrong with how I conducted myself. My response was that I don't think there's anything particularly offensive about my behavior, and if others react poorly to it, that's their own issue, not mine.

I guess sacrificed clarity in my effort to be flip. Sorry about that.

[horatio616]

You guys are always trying to hurt somebody. Why don't you try lovin' somebody?

Anyway, we haven't even discussed how a guy that shares a one bedroom apartment, and who has no money and no car, gets so many girls. Is the allure of being in a band that powerful?

Like my intellectual idol, Young MC, famously said, "you got no money and you got no car, then you got no woman, and there you are."

Guy has a point.

[kwok_talk]

What the heck happened here? Anywho.
RE: Scott Pilgrim. Finally read Vol 1.

LOVED IT!

Ordered Vol. 2-4.

(Luthor says Scott Pilgrim is the epitome of what a Kwok book would be.)

[luthor]

Anyway, we haven't even discussed how a guy that shares a one bedroom apartment, and who has no money and no car, gets so many girls. Is the allure of being in a band that powerful?

There are parts of Toronto that are very bohemian and guys living like that really isn't that unusual, particularly in that age range.

[luthor]

(Luthor says Scott Pilgrim is the epitome of what a Kwok book would be.)

I'm Luthor and I support his statement.

[valoharth]

There are parts of Toronto that are very bohemian and guys living like that really isn't that unusual, particularly in that age range.

Sweet, I've been meaning to relocate sounds like the spot for me!

[horatio616]

There are parts of Toronto that are very bohemian and guys living like that really isn't that unusual, particularly in that age range.

Hmm, so Young MC's tenet doesn't apply to Canada? Interesting.

So is it possible that all of the characters in this story have b.o.?

[luthor]

So is it possible that all of the characters in this story have b.o.?

Not all but certainly some.

[horatio616]

Not all but certainly some.

I don't think Scott's gay roommate would allow him to stink and sleep in the same bed. I'm sure he mooches his cologne.

I love the part in vol. 2 when Ramona makes a list about why his apt. sucks.

From wiki:

In 2005, Universal Pictures announced that they had optioned the property for a possible future film adaptation. Edgar Wright is attached as director, and Michael Bacall is to write the screenplay. The film has apparently been placed on the studio fast-track by Universal, to possibly avoid the impending 2008 Writers Guild, Directors Guild and Screen Actors Guild strike.

[esophagus]

Would that not be the worst combination of strikes? Life as we know it would be over. On the plus side, I'm sure they'd be a lot quicker to get back in.

I am not Luthor, and I denounce the statement that all Canadians are smelly and still getting women. :rolleyes:

[horatio616]

Would that not be the worst combination of strikes? Life as we know it would be over. On the plus side, I'm sure they'd be a lot quicker to get back in.

I am not Luthor, and I denounce the statement that all Canadians are smelly and still getting women. :rolleyes:

I was inferring that bohemians are smelly not Canadians. I will say though that Canadians are starting to get really uppity with their highly-valued currency! ;)

[esophagus]

I was inferring that bohemians are smelly not Canadians. I will say though that Canadians are starting to get really uppity with their highly-valued currency! ;)
Of course we are. It's exciting. It's like pirates finding treasure and taking it to the market.

"This pirate money can't buy you anything."
"... Oh."
"..."
"... Nothing?"
"Nope."
"Oh..."
"JUST KIDDING!"

;)

[horatio616]

Of course we are. It's exciting. It's like pirates finding treasure and taking it to the market.

"This pirate money can't buy you anything."
"... Oh."
"..."
"... Nothing?"
"Nope."
"Oh..."
"JUST KIDDING!"

;)

Our dollar is dropping so fast that we're quickly going back to the barter system. I had to pay for my comics yesterday with two chickens and a foot massage!

[esophagus]

I saw an infomercial the other day telling me I could feed an impoverished American for just $1 a day.

"Their country is stricken with war, falling stock prices, and a few more months of George Bush. Please. Help a starving child, like Nicole Richie here, for a measly loonie a day. Call now at 1-800-PIRATE."

[dave-accampo]

I saw an infomercial the other day telling me I could feed an impoverished American for just $1 a day.

"Their country is stricken with war, falling stock prices, and a few more months of George Bush. Please. Help a starving child, like Nicole Richie here, for a measly loonie a day. Call now at 1-800-PIRATE."

My favorite post in this entire thread. Nice one, Eso.

[paper]

Is "loonie" like a Canadian coin?

[luthor]

We don't have 1 and 2 dollar bills. Instead we have the Loonie and the Toonie.

http://www.globalclassroom.org/2004/spicer/loonie_toonie2013.jpg

Toonie on top, loonie on the bottom.

[kahunablair]

Toonie on top, loonie on the bottom.

Sounds like my last relationship!

*rimshot*

[paper]

Scott Pilgrim vs. The Universe

Coming February 4, 2009, debuting at NYCC 2009!!!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3248/2710084287_b362e8bd07.jpg?v=0

[luthor]

Debuting At the New York Comic Con...2 days after it goes on sale. Wha?

But still....pretty friggin' stoked. Love the cover and incredibly interested in the title.

[paper]

Debuting in the sense that I will get mine autographed and you won't.

Bwahahahaha

[dave-accampo]

Debuting in the sense that I will get mine autographed and you won't.

Bwahahahaha

You mean like how my Alex Robinson Too Cool To Be Forgotten book is signed by him (with a little sketch in it), and yours is not?

You mean like that?

[paper]

I don't know if that's a compelling comparison. Luthor sees O'Malley's face in rust stains and muffin tops.

[gobo]

NYCC is in February? brrrr

Maybe I'll try to make it down this year, I'll see how much couch surfing I can do

[paper]

Didn't they say it was on Superbowl weekend in '09?

Not that I care. A little less foot traffic to navigate....as I line up for my high five with O'Malley, which will be documented with three cameras and then immediately streamed to Luthor.

[dave-accampo]

I don't know if that's a compelling comparison. Luthor sees O'Malley's face in rust stains and muffin tops.

Eh, I'll take what I can get.

[paper]

Not to belittle your acquisition of course! Robinson seemed like a really cool guy on the video show. One of the good guys.

[luthor]

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/3314/nopaulti4.png

[paper]

We need to submit that to Jinx.

[apswesthome]

Scott Pilgrim vs. The Universe

Coming February 4, 2009, debuting at NYCC 2009!!!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3248/2710084287_b362e8bd07.jpg?v=0

Oh shiiiiiiiiiit...

so stoked.

I'm guessing [goin' out on a limb] the title is: Scott Pilgrim vs. The Bonus Universe and it's gonna introduce spin-off's!!!!!!

[gungadin]

I'm guessing [goin' out on a limb] the title is: Scott Pilgrim vs. The Bonus Universe and it's gonna introduce spin-off's!!!!!!

I want Scott Pilgrim spin-offs... Hopefully about Kim... cuz... she's my favorite...

[cam-]

If Scott Pilgrim were reading this thread, he'd make this face:

http://www.chromewaves.net/images/interface/20070817scottPilgrim.jpg

You know what else they have at Sneaky Dee's? Recycled Beer.

And college kids throwing up.

At least they did when I was in College...good times.

[crippler]

iFanboy GLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

ILOVETHISBOOK!

Thank you so much for making a big deal out of it and getting me to check it out. I am definitely onboard for the whole ride. I think I either knew or sometimes was a bit Scott Pilgrimish in my early 20s. (not so long ago) Certain scenes in particular really clicked with me. April snowstorms and first dates walking around because you dont' have any money, except that I had the emblem of the Galactic Empire on the shoulder of my coat, not Xavier's school for gifted youngsters.

[crippler]

Picked up books 2, 3, and 4 and read book 2 tonight. The Pilgrim express is pickin up steam! Still completely in love with this book. Is it weird that I've had way too many memories triggered by some of the scenes?

[conorkilpatrick]

Picked up books 2, 3, and 4 and read book 2 tonight. The Pilgrim express is pickin up steam! Still completely in love with this book. Is it weird that I've had way too many memories triggered by some of the scenes?

Nope. He does a fantastic job of capturing that early 20s life and mindset.

[valoharth]

Okay, this is weird. I was not but two hours ago pondering about how SP captures a clique and the early 20's.

The thought was triggered by my Love Letters and Gravestone's hoodie, a old local band, and I was just remembering back to the days when I was a part of the so called Wyoming punk scene. I remembered how we use to hang out and then I started to compaire people to the characters in SP. Oddly enough I don't think there wasn't a person in RL who I couldn't compair to a SP character. It was weird, but cool.

[telecarlos]

Ok... so I'm a noob at comics... and even noob-ier with Scott Pilgrim... yet it rocks! Have only read vol 1 & 2 (3 & 4 on the way) and I love it, a lot. Yes, it does take me back to the early 20's, playing w/ the band, no money, girlfriends, etc. Funny, saw Juno last night and Bateman's character does remind me of me now, me being 35 and yet to reach maturedom! Just kidding on that one... me thinks. I praise O'malley for the books, this is his work, not ours, we are just here to enjoy if we want to. It's hard for me to critique anyone's art since most people put their hearts into it and Scott Pilgrim is full of heart. I definitely want to give this to my daughter at a later age (she's 12, reading comics and a full on music fan! yeah, she rocks!).

So yeah, me likes this a lot! Can't wait for to read the others, regardless of where the story goes. Sure, it's not for everyone, just like some of the bands we love and praise. But for those of us that do love it, it does clique in that special way! Thanks Brian!

[luthor]

Has everyone checked out Bear Creek Apartments (http://www.radiomaru.com/comics/short/bca/)? It's a short that Bryan Lee O'Malley and Hope Larson did together. Very cool.

[optimus187prime]

Has everyone checked out Bear Creek Apartments (http://www.radiomaru.com/comics/short/bca/)? It's a short that Bryan Lee O'Malley and Hope Larson did together. Very cool.

I was enjoying it until it got weird. I like how O'Malley writes dialogue it flows.

[telecarlos]

I got vol 3 & 4 and think I read them the same night... Yes, thay are really cool. Haven't enjoyed reading this much since... the time I went on a Y he Last Man binge. Dang, now I gotta wait till Feb 2009 for the next vol, just like the rest of you!

Yes I have even re-read them, somthing I haven't done with other books!