Quit yer holiday shopping, it's time for comics discussion for 12/12/07! [Archive]

tehdave

12-12-2007, 10:48 PM

agreed that the fight in new avengers seemed to drag on a bit too long. still, not a bad issue - i loved the dialogue between dr strange and the hood. it added a whole new dimension to the hood's character, and i'm really starting to care about him at this point. (the cameos in daredevil are helping too!)

booster gold 5...i am so in love with this book. just when the formula's starting to get stale, the book gets a nice little twist like this issue with booster NOT fixing things up. rather than just having rip say "you can't change the past," this issue illustrates it in a much more compelling way. the ultra-humanite/despero/per degaton crew intrigues me (they made a brief appearance back in justice league), and the final page with all the beetles has been building up since the beginning. can't wait to see how this plays out.

that said, rip hunter's torture chamber? seriously f'ed up right there.

i'm loving this book because it's embracing all the dc goodness in a way that a lot of books don't. i love that dc, in the past year or 2, is finally embracing its history, rather than overwriting it, as had been policy since the first crisis.

mikegraham6

12-13-2007, 01:24 AM

Yu was the problem with New Avengers this week, he just can't make a dynamic fight scene. the idea of the "fake" heroes didnt work on the page either. it felt like it would be better suited for tv or movies since (from what i understood) they just stood there while the action took place around them and you can't relay that well on the comic page

Green Lantern 25 was worth the wait, it was a great close to that epic and the art was jaw dropping. I love how they set up the next part in the trilogy as well as the next year's worth of GL stories. Great book and i take back anything i said about Sinestro War lasting to long. POW so far.

labor_days

12-13-2007, 01:25 AM

I jumped back on Countdown this week. It was awful.

gungadin

12-13-2007, 01:36 AM

I jumped back on Countdown this week. It was awful.

Best. Review. Ever.

itsbecca

12-13-2007, 01:37 AM

I jumped back on Countdown this week. It was awful.

So so awful. I just kept reading each new story and hoping one peice would be good. But it wasn't. And what was with everyone's getting an Egg Fu makeover on their faces... geesh.

paper

12-13-2007, 01:39 AM

Got New Avengers and Ultimate Iron Man. Also picked up the Question trade.

fred

12-13-2007, 02:36 AM

My grades are up: http://thisweekincomics.com/thisweekstatistics.php

BOW - Scalped #12
SBOW - DMZ #26

Podcast by midnight
summary soon

jimski

12-13-2007, 02:53 AM

Did Bendis draw the last page of New Avengers? It was signed as if he did.

The scars of Civil War linger: it turns out I cheer when SHIELD troops get shot now.

labor_days

12-13-2007, 02:53 AM

SBOW - DMZ #26

I for one, am shocked.

fred

12-13-2007, 03:08 AM

I for one, am shocked.

It feels like it has lost focus. This was the 4th of at least 6 consecutive one shots. I want the awesome story arcs to come back.

neb

12-13-2007, 03:18 AM

I haven't finished all my books yet this week, but I just read The Boys #13 and completely laughed my ass off. Quite possibly one of the best last pages in a while.

And I agree, New Avengers was very "meh" this week. Yu's art is so inconsistent--or maybe my love of it is. This makes me nervous for Secret Invasion because the art may just ruin any sort of story found in the event. And I'm getting kind of tired of Bendis' Spider-Man banter. It's great for a few panels of fighting, but the whole fight...not so much.

cormano

12-13-2007, 03:53 AM

I thought I was getting four books this week, ended up with six (missed Marvel Presents because there are so many books on the list that start with "Marvel" and DMZ because of the mature list misunderstanding). DMZ is the only one I haven't read yet. I also picked up Pedro and Me and Astro City: Life in the Big City from the new "Well Read Books: $1" rack at my LCS. Sweet deal…

New Avengers #37 - Agreed with most of what has been said. My biggest complaint was the extra people standing around during the fight… it mostly just made it confusing. The whole issue seemed to pretty much just be there to show that The Hood is REALLY SERIOUSLY taking over and he'll even break people out of jail! There was some really entertaining banter, though. Spidey and Hawkeye are funny.

X-Factor #26 - I really liked the art in this issue, I don't know why I didn't notice it last issue, but maybe it's because I haven't like some of the other artists in this crossover that I'm now taking notice of Scot Eaton. Beyond the art… the story is trucking along and is still tons of fun. There are so many little squads out doing different things at this point that it's hard to go through the whole issue without writing a lot more than I want to, so I will just say that I enjoyed it.

Punisher War Journal #14 - I didn't think this was quite as good as last issue, Cory Walker's art was missed (although Scott Wegener seems decent). This issue, while had some cool portions, mostly seems to be setting up for next issue when we will have the big showdown. The final line did make me crack up, though.

Marvel Comics Presents #4 - I've only read the first two stories in this. Vanguard has been my favorite portion of the book since it started and that continues here. I am getting a little impatient to see what's going on, but there are enough good moments here and an unexpected, yet somewhat cliched twist to keep it entertaining. The Hellcat story ended… I enjoyed the first couple chapters of it, but it dragged a bit and I'm glad it's ended. Immonen's artwork is great, though. I can't wait for his first Ultimate Spider-Man trade to come out.

Astounding Wolf Man #4 - I love Jason Howard's art for the Wolf Man in fight scenes and stuff, but it looks pretty bad on the regular people at the beginning of the issue. The story is good but I'm starting to remember why I read most of Kirkman's stuff in trade. There are so many story threads that are opened in this issue and I can't wait to see what happens… I wish I didn't have to. This is all FCBD's fault, if the first issue weren't free, I'd be reading the first six issues all at once a few months from now. I guess that's what they were hoping for, though.

diabhol

12-13-2007, 05:00 AM

Yu was the problem with New Avengers this week

Nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Green Lantern 25 was worth the wait, it was a great close to that epic and the art was jaw dropping. I love how they set up the next part in the trilogy as well as the next year's worth of GL stories. Great book and i take back anything i said about Sinestro War lasting to long. POW so far.

Except for GL 25 being the POW (though it was pretty close), I gotta agree with everything up here. It was really well done.

In other comics news, Messiah Complex *still* owns my soul.

dave-accampo

12-13-2007, 05:12 AM

OK, I've only read a couple so far, but I thought I'd weigh in:

***spoilers ho!***

X-factor #26 - I signed onto this cross-over, and it's still fun, but I think this is the weakest issue yet. The Madrox future stuff felt like it was treading water a little, without any huge revelations.

Also, there's something bothering me. It started last issue, but it doesn't seem to change here. We find out Cable has the baby, so Cyclops response is not just to send the trackers, but to also tell them that they may have to kill Cable. Did anyone else find this odd? Wasn't Cable just on the main X-team before this? Why does Cyclops assume that Cable won't bring the baby to them? It seems weird, like they're trying so hard to bring Cyke back to bad-ass status, that they lost a bit of story logic there.

Wouldn't it have made more sense, for example if it went something like:Cyclops: "Go. Get Cable and the baby and bring them in from the cold."
Wolverine: We found him, but he ain't comin' with us. Says it isn't safe.
Cyclops: Then just get the baby at any cost.
Wolverine: You understand what you're sayin'...?
Cyclops. ...yes.
Wolverine: Cuz, you know, I"m the best there is at what I do, but what I do--
Cyclops: Yeah, yeah, whatever.
OK, so maybe not the last part, but you get the idea. Feels like they're trying too hard for bad-assery here.

Green Arrow/Black Canary - Good art, LOTS of explanations. Felt a bit weak, but it was still fun.

Until the end, that is. I'm annoyed by this cliffhanger, and it's not because they killed a character I liked. It's because:
they picked the most obvious character to kill
the death was completely randomLet me explain: If you're going to kill the character that is the most obvious to kill, then you can't make it completely random and tacked onto the end as a "shocking cliffhanger." I don't mind them killing Connor, if they make it an intrinsic part of the story. Like Spock sacrificing himself at the end of Wrath of Khan. It works if Connor gives up his life to, say, save Oliver. Or Dinah, or even Speedy. But in this instance, he's essential collateral damage. And collateral damage could work if it was the LEAST expected character because the shock throws EVERYTHING into turmoil. But we know the title can easily continue without Connor. Thus you need the death to be the only way OUT of this story. Not tacked on at the end.

I'm sure Winick will use the death to mine some good territory in upcoming issues. And I'm sure he'll do a fine job. But it's an annoyance in this issue.

OK, enough *****ing. That's my giant nitpick. Storytelling issues that bother me. Have I said too much? :D

humphrey-lee

12-13-2007, 09:22 AM

I've noticed that it really is getting to the point that I think about only 20% of my books each week are mainline Marvel or DC books. I just don't care enough to buy any of them. I honestly bought more IDW books this week than Marvel. There's a bunch of their books I like to keep up on just in general so I know the universe, like today I read New Avengers off the shelf but there's just so little actually worth supporting with my money. I tried to read Green Lantern too to keep up on all the hubabaloo about that (which, all said, it looks like I dig it enough that I'll end up buying whatever collection they put out for it but I didn't really go nucking futs over it) but I kept getting distracted.

I finally did get a chance to read Ultimates 3 off the shelf... seriously, I've read probably over 10,000 comic books in my time, and by god that might be in the 20 worst ones pretty easily. My god it made my eyes bleed.

I need to get back to the stack, Scalped is calling to me pretty hard. Seriously, the only minor complaint I have about that book is that I still don't think the art has caught up to the quality of the writing, but by ****ing god I flipped through Jean Paul Leon's guest pencils and I just about plotzed. I don't even have to know what the story is in this one and I can already tell it'll probably be the best thing I soak up this week (though WORMWOOD also had a high level of plotzingness about it).

tehdave

12-13-2007, 11:08 AM

Green Arrow/Black Canary - Good art, LOTS of explanations. Felt a bit weak, but it was still fun.

Until the end, that is. I'm annoyed by this cliffhanger, and it's not because they killed a character I liked. It's because:
they picked the most obvious character to kill
the death was completely random

couldn't agree more. i was ok with this book, but when i read the last page or two and this happened, my reaction was one of utter annoyance. it didn't feel like something that came out of the story, it felt like a writer was pushing my buttons just to do so.

though maybe it wasn't REALLY connor hawk; maybe it was an impotent shapeshifter posing as him.

neb

12-13-2007, 12:10 PM

I agree with the summations of GA/BC #3. I've been loving this book, but at the end, I thought to myself, "Jesus, another 'death.' C'mon Winnick, you can do better than that." I also felt that a few of the jokes in the issue fell flat, where the first two's punchlines were spot on. Overall, I still was able to have fun with it, but this has been the weakest issue so far.

I will make this statement though: As long as Cliff Chiang is drawing this book I will be buying it. He art is...just...so...so damn beautiful. That shot of Ollie in his full garb toward the end was just so amazing.

ryan79

12-13-2007, 02:05 PM

A friend of mine gets me to pick up his books every week, all of them Green Lantern-related. I was never a GL fan myself but I kept hearing good things about the Sinestro Corp crossover. Still wasn't interested. Then when I picked up his copy of GL #25 and skimmed through the first few pages, I was blown away and realized what a mistake I had made. My eyes kept getting wider and wider after every page. Amazing, epic stuff.

DMZ was good. I'm getting a little tired of the one-shot stories though.

New Avengers was pretty meh. Nice interactions between the team, though. And I didn't see that coming with The Hood. Weird stuff.

Suicide Squad is a guilty pleasure. If there's a book full of B and C level bad guys, I'm in for the long haul.

Countdown...gah. I don't know why I buy this book.

X-Factor is always good and this just continued the trend. And anytime a stupid character gets eaten by what looks like a cross between a T-1000 and a dinosaur, it's a good time.

Elephantmen....am I the only one that reads these books? It's a shame if that's true because I think they're really good.

davegraham

12-13-2007, 02:19 PM

Countdown...gah. I don't know why I buy this book.

Me too. I don't want to quit it, because I've gone this far with it, but that hardly seems like a reason to buy anything. This was probably my last issue.

Now I know how Ron felt when he was reading Wolverine: Origins.

jaflanagan

12-13-2007, 02:57 PM

Just stop reading it. I did. Worked like a charm. I bought half of it. If you're not digging it by now, what makes you think that giving DC another $30 is a good idea?

jimski

12-13-2007, 03:04 PM

Was it Richard Jeni or Kevin Pollak who used to do that bit about continuing to watch Jaws IV because you keep thinking it's going to get better, until eventually the TV just comes over and starts slapping you?

I've stuck with bad books too long before, but weekly? That's a lot of money to give to someone for sucking.

cam-

12-13-2007, 03:06 PM

Just stop reading it. I did. Worked like a charm. I bought half of it. If you're not digging it by now, what makes you think that giving DC another $30 is a good idea?

I thought you would be destroyed if you stopped reading Countdown? You know, by Conor and Ron.

Well good for you.

Every couple of weeks it seems people complain about how they're continuing to by countdown, and I smile to myself cause I dropped it so long ago.

(and every couple of weeks Conor tells me it's been good lately ;))

davegraham

12-13-2007, 03:09 PM

At first I was telling myself that something had to happen at some point. And for a long while it felt like that point was coming just around the corner. Now, I've given up on anything actually ever going to occur. So, yeah, I am done.

cam-

12-13-2007, 03:13 PM

Well, the thing is something is going to happen. Final Crisis, but right now you're just reading a Countdown to something happening.

conorkilpatrick

12-13-2007, 03:15 PM

(and every couple of weeks Conor tells me it's been good lately ;))

It has yet to stop being good.

mikegraham6

12-13-2007, 03:17 PM

davegraham

12-13-2007, 03:22 PM

the book is very poorly written, and i really hated myself for buying it, but i have to admit the story has gotten a lot more interesting since the title change, and i've actually stopped saving it for last

See, last night I realized it is always the last book I read. And the developments that do come along don't match the size of the anticipation I have for them through reading the rest of the series.

mikegraham6

12-13-2007, 03:29 PM

See, last night I realized it is always the last book I read. And the developments that do come along don't match the size of the anticipation I have for them through reading the rest of the series.
i can see what you mean, but at the beginning of the series the developments weren't compelling in slightest, but the new one have caught me off guard. The death of the Trickster for example, i had no clue how pied piper will get out of this now and im actually interested when before i couldn't have given a shit. I know im in the minority but i enjoyed the superboy prime issue, and the challengers stuff has been uneventful but solid and it's been fun seeing the new earths. Plus the New Gods stuff has finally started to ramp up as well.

The OMAC stuff is bothering me, i think DC is giving that villain a little more credit thatn it's worth. It's only showed up in a mini and lackluster series prior to this and the brother eye stuff doesn't carry the weight with me that DC seems to think it should.

Regardless, im not regretting my purchase anymore, im just sitting back and enjoying the ride

cam-

12-13-2007, 03:31 PM

SO I haven't come close to reading all of my books yet, but I too wanted to rave about GL.

One of my favorite moments is Sinestro saying "come on then, the both of you"

So badass! If wolverine had a moment like that people would be going apeshit!

But more importantly, what impressed me most was the potential that Johns has created. He's opened so many doors of possibility and future storytelling it's incredible. Upcoming writers should be licking his boots for setting up a playing field like that.

Awesome.

luthor

12-13-2007, 03:44 PM

Re: Green Lantern 25

Zombie Lanterns? Cool! I can't wait to see Hal's reaction to his father and Barry Allen.

Other then that...it was disappointing. I was hoping it would establish Anti-Monitor, SuperBOY-Prime, Sinestro and Cyborg Superman as massive threats. Instead, with the notable exception of SuperBOY-Prime, everything went back to status quo. Anti-Monitor is in limbo, Cyborg Superman is still kicking and Sinestro got beat by Hal.

*yawn*

It's an awfully happy ending for something that was supposed to be the Empire Strikes Back of his proposed Lantern's Light saga.

davegraham

12-13-2007, 03:48 PM

The death of the Trickster for example, i had no clue how pied piper will get out of this now and im actually interested when before i couldn't have given a shit.

Yeah, I am curious about Trickster and Pied Piper, but I don't like how the story is unfolding. So Trickster is killed and the restraints are going to explode in 24 hours. Interesting. I want to see how this unfolds. Piper uses auto parts to make a flute that can slow down the timer? Really? Maybe believable for a comic book world, but as the payoff for the 24 hours to live cliffhanger? Meh. And now he has to go on the run, through the desert, carrying dead Trickster's body. Interesting, but I don't have a lot of faith that Piper isn't going to stumble onto something that will get him out of the desert unscathed. In the mean time, I am asking myself why I even care about Piper or Trickerster and I realize it isn't them I care about so much as their journey. However every time they get to one place, they very quickly bounce to another place and to another and I don't feel anything about the places they are going. So why should I read on?

I am not trying to convince anyone that this is the case, just explain my reason for quitting the book.

mikegraham6

12-13-2007, 03:50 PM

Other then that...it was disappointing. I was hoping it would establish Anti-Monitor, SuperBOY-Prime, Sinestro and Cyborg Superman as massive threats. Instead, with the notable exception of SuperBOY-Prime, everything went back to status quo. Anti-Monitor is in limbo, Cyborg Superman is still kicking and Sinestro got beat by Hal.

i couldn't disagree with that statement more. They are all significant threats now and they are all still out there ready to attack, just give them some time

davegraham

12-13-2007, 03:58 PM

Yeah, but Hal and the rest of the Corp think they have one the day. At the end of Empire, the rebel's end victory was in serious question. By themselves and the audience.

I liked the addition of other colored Corps, but the Green Lanterns pretty soundly kicked the Sinestro Corp's butts and all it cost them was a comprimise of their principles. Even that compromise was minor. It is my understanding they can only kill Sinestro Corp members. As long as you don't wear a yellow ring you have nothing to fear from the GL Corp.

mikegraham6

12-13-2007, 04:04 PM

i think the coloured corps things came as no surprised to anyone who read that Star Saphire arc before Sinestro War. Still, it's a great way to expand the GL mythos and opens up TONS of storylines.
I CANNOT wait for the introduction of the Red Lanterns who are powered off of hate! Now there's a threat!

cam-

12-13-2007, 04:11 PM

Even that compromise was minor. It is my understanding they can only kill Sinestro Corp members. As long as you don't wear a yellow ring you have nothing to fear from the GL Corp.

Hmmm, where do you see that. I just remember all the rings saying lethal force authorized. Nothing more specific than that.

six-gun

12-13-2007, 04:15 PM

How was the Van Sciver bit in GL?

mikegraham6

12-13-2007, 04:18 PM

van sciver is so damn awesome, he is the definitive GL artist in my opinion. 2009 can't come soon enough (he's penciling "The Blackest Night" right?)

conorkilpatrick

12-13-2007, 04:18 PM

Yeah, but Hal and the rest of the Corp think they have one the day. At the end of Empire, the rebel's end victory was in serious question. By themselves and the audience.

I dont' think anyone said it would be an exact copy of Empire Starikes Back. That would be pretty lame if it was.

I liked the addition of other colored Corps, but the Green Lanterns pretty soundly kicked the Sinestro Corp's butts and all it cost them was a comprimise of their principles. Even that compromise was minor. It is my understanding they can only kill Sinestro Corp members. As long as you don't wear a yellow ring you have nothing to fear from the GL Corp.

I got the opposite impression. Sinestro's plan was to allow the GLs to kill - anyone. How else to rule the universe with fear? If they could only kill Sinestro Corps members then no one would be afraid.

six-gun

12-13-2007, 04:18 PM

I love anything OMAC, if it wasn't for last issue's reveal I would be dropping Countdown

ryan79

12-13-2007, 04:55 PM

Just stop reading it. I did. Worked like a charm. I bought half of it. If you're not digging it by now, what makes you think that giving DC another $30 is a good idea?

It's a mental thing, I suppose. I've gone this far with it so I can't just drop it without getting the whole series. Conversely, if I didn't know when the series was going to end, I could drop it and have few reservations about it. I guess it's just the completist in me.

But now that I really sit and think about it, I'm mildly interested in the Piper/Trickster storyline. But even that seems to be going downhill...

jaflanagan

12-13-2007, 05:11 PM

luthor

12-13-2007, 05:15 PM

Sinestro's plan was to allow the GLs to kill - anyone. How else to rule the universe with fear? If they could only kill Sinestro Corps members then no one would be afraid.

In the Ion book, John Stewart says they are only allowed to kill Sinestro Corps members.

i couldn't disagree with that statement more. They are all significant threats now and they are all still out there ready to attack, just give them some time

But they are back to exactly the same place they were before the story happened, again except for Prime. I'd even go so far as to say Sinestro came out of this looking a lot weaker.

How was the Van Sciver bit in GL?

EVS' art was great but the rest of the book was wishy washy. Some parts of it were fantastic and other parts looked like crap.

conorkilpatrick

12-13-2007, 05:19 PM

In the Ion book, John Stewart says they are only allowed to kill Sinestro Corps members.

Do you have a quote on that? It doesn't seem to make any sense in regard to Sinestro's plan. Maybe Stewart was saying they were only ALLOWED to kill Sinestro Corps members. Allowed, not able.

I dunno. I need to see the context.

six-gun

12-13-2007, 05:26 PM

I want to make a point about Countdown. I don't think it was bad necessarily. It was just that, for me, I had no interest in the outcome or events. There seem to be many people out there who enjoy it, and want to know what's happening. I'm just not one of them.

Well, I'm going out and saying that it is bad.

I bough the third trade of 52 yesterday and I'm struck by the quality of it compared to Countdown, they're not even in the same league.

luthor

12-13-2007, 05:38 PM

steve-m-

12-13-2007, 06:09 PM

I actually liked New Avengers a lot, although the Hood is a punk-***** who talks too much crap and needs for Luke Cage to pound the crap out of him. I think the Annual is all women though, so I don't mind seeing Mrs. cage beating his a$$ (as they say in the comics).

Marvel needs to study Messiah Complex--this is how you do a freaking crossover!!! On time, good story, coming out weekly--not once ever few months and in spurts. This story is awesome. I am so ready to see ho-bag Lady Deathstrike get beat down by X-23. I have hated LD for a long time. That is a villain that needs to be retired.

conorkilpatrick

12-13-2007, 06:22 PM

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/Luthor_bucket/JohnText.jpg

Yeah, to me that says "We are in a war with the Sinestro Corps and it's okay to kill them now that we have the ability to kill."

Anything else doesn't make sense to me in terms of the story.

davegraham

12-13-2007, 06:27 PM

Do you have a quote on that? It doesn't seem to make any sense in regard to Sinestro's plan. Maybe Stewart was saying they were only ALLOWED to kill Sinestro Corps members. Allowed, not able.

I dunno. I need to see the context.

That is what threw me about Sinestro's plan. It seems like the only people in the universe who have to fear the GL Corp is the Sinestro Corp.

I don't know who said it, but it was said that this is the Empire chapter of this Johns Green Lantern Saga. And this was a pretty cheery end for an Empire chatper. Guy is cured at the last minute. Coast City is saved by Hal and Kyle. The Lost Lanterns rally to Hal's side. The GL Corp help rebuild the damage on Earth. Sure there is the threat of these other Lanterns (and they seem cool), but that is hardly the same as the Cloud City betrayal, Han getting frozen, finding out Vader and Luke's father, and Luke loosing his hand.

conorkilpatrick

12-13-2007, 06:30 PM

I don't know who said it, but it was said that this is the Empire chapter of this Johns Green Lantern Saga. And this was a pretty cheery end for an Empire chatper. Guy is cured at the last minute. Coast City is saved by Hal and Kyle. The Lost Lanterns rally to Hal's side. The GL Corp help rebuild the damage on Earth. Sure there is the threat of these other Lanterns (and they seem cool), but that is hardly the same as the Cloud City betrayal, Han getting frozen, finding out Vader and Luke's father, and Luke loosing his hand.

Right, but even if it's "The Empire Chapter" it doesn't mean it's going to follow Empire beat for beat.

Did Geoff Johns call it so? If not then it's an unfair burden to place on the book.

six-gun

12-13-2007, 06:33 PM

Right, but even if it's "The Empire Chapter" it doesn't mean it's going to follow Empire beat for beat.

Did Geoff Johns call it so? If not then it's an unfair burden to place on the book.
He did call it that, but beat for beat would be boring. I don't like Star Wars though ;)

davegraham

12-13-2007, 06:39 PM

He did call it that, but beat for beat would be boring. I don't like Star Wars though ;)

I am not a Star Wars fan either so I don't know why I am even bringing it up :D

conorkilpatrick

12-13-2007, 06:42 PM

I think that if you want to bring up a parallel to the tone of Empire, even though it appears that the Green Lantern Corps won the war, the seeds have been planted for the coming disaster in 2009. So even though the heroes are happy we know better. I wouldn't call it a happy ending.

labor_days

12-13-2007, 06:51 PM

I wouldn't call the GLC being able to kill and thus sacrificing their principles, "minor". It's a big deal for them. And sows seeds of "can we trust these people after all?"

paper

12-13-2007, 06:57 PM

This is kinda weird. There are A LOT of board members who don't like Star Wars. I'm not a fanatic like I was when I was like 14, but c'mon...

Real Force.

cam-

12-13-2007, 07:00 PM

Real Force.

I for one am innudated with midi-chlorians.

stupid new episodes...

:D

labor_days

12-13-2007, 07:00 PM

Define "A LOT" vs. 3 or 4 dudes.

davegraham

12-13-2007, 07:01 PM

I wouldn't call the GLC being able to kill and thus sacrificing their principles, "minor". It's a big deal for them. And sows seeds of "can we trust these people after all?"

Well, that all depends on whether or not they can kill anyone they want to or if they can only kill Sinestro Corp members. It also depends on how you interpret the situation, according to your own principles.

cam-

12-13-2007, 07:05 PM

Well, that all depends on whether or not they can kill anyone they want to or if they can only kill Sinestro Corp members. It also depends on how you interpret the situation, according to your own principles.

I REAAAAALY think you need to reconsider this "only kill Sinestro Corps" thing, there's nothing that specific in the above panel, and as Conor said it doesn't make sense without the ability to kill anyone.

It says they "can" kill the sinestro corps, not "can only"

conorkilpatrick

12-13-2007, 07:06 PM

I don't think it's in debate anymore. The Green Lanterns can kill - anyone. That was the new law being written.

***

NRAMA: Status of Sinestro?

GJ: He's under arrest. We'll see him in Green Lantern #26.

NRAMA: He doesn't seem too upset.

GJ: No, he's not too upset. I mean, he could have pushed things further. And he didn't. But as you saw him sitting in the cell at the end, he's not that unhappy. And there are other things to come. He's anxiously awaiting the announcement of the next law.

NRAMA: The next of these 10 laws that the Guardians added? He loved that first law, which let the Green Lanterns use lethal force. But wait, if he's anxious for the next law, does Sinestro know what the laws are going to be?

GJ: He has a feeling what they are. He knows a lot more than he's letting on. About everything.

davegraham

12-13-2007, 07:10 PM

Okay, I missed a couple of pages of the conversation. I get it now. It would be nice if it was made that clear in the comic book and not an interview :)

labor_days

12-13-2007, 07:15 PM

I was not confused. Clearly, they could use lethal force. It just so happened that Jon Stewart was running things down in context to the SCW. In the earlier issue, the Guardians flatly stated that they were going to authorize lethality. I took that to mean across the board not just for people wearing yellow.

conorkilpatrick

12-13-2007, 07:17 PM

Okay, I missed a couple of pages of the conversation. I get it now. It would be nice if it was made that clear in the comic book and not an interview :)

I thought it was pretty clear.

davegraham

12-13-2007, 07:21 PM

Well, I guess it wasn't so clear to me. Sorry I caused everyone so much anguish :(

conorkilpatrick

12-13-2007, 07:26 PM

Well, I guess it wasn't so clear to me. Sorry I caused everyone so much anguish :(

***HUGS***

labor_days

12-13-2007, 07:26 PM

Bros 4 lyfe.

davegraham

12-13-2007, 07:33 PM

Yeah, everything is cool on my side of the internet.

See that is why this board is the best on the internet, everyone WANTS to get along here.

euchre0

12-13-2007, 07:38 PM

Were there ever any different colored Lanterns in the Silver Age? I seem to recall hearing something about Red Lanterns or something.

While it wasn't surprising for Johns to introduce all new colored rings, I think it's cool. For some reason I really like the idea of a Blue Lantern. I have to wonder, how do you power a ring with love? Granted, I don't exaclty understand how willpower or fear can fuel a ring either, but how exactly does one fight with the power of love? Like an abusive husband or father who beats because he loves?

or hope..."I hope I win this fight!" BLAM!

davegraham

12-13-2007, 07:44 PM

Did anyone else catch the panel where the Bizarro Hal was getting knocked on his butt? I thought that was funny.

labor_days

12-13-2007, 07:53 PM

I'm curious about the coming of the Orange Lanterns. Avarice could apply to a lot of villains.

kahunablair

12-13-2007, 08:09 PM

Wow was this a solid week or what? I just read a huge chunk of my books, and I think I'd give an A grade to all of them.
Green Lantern/Corps... a wee bit inspiring issues.
Walking Dead... can it get any crazier?
X-Factor... Fun as the rest of the series.
Booster Gold... More throwback fun. The whole Joker constantly beating on Booster was a nice touch.

What's everyone's thoughts on how Countdown Arena is turning out?

steve-m-

12-13-2007, 08:18 PM

luthor

12-13-2007, 08:25 PM

What's everyone's thoughts on how Countdown Arena is turning out?

I like it. I think it's a lot like being a little kid and taking your action figures and bashing them together. I'm a sucker for Scott McDaniel's art and I've been surprised how versatile his style is. I didn't think he'd be able to do the space/sci fi stuff. The scripts aren't great but for this story I don't really think they need to be. It's just stupid mindless fun.

deezer

12-13-2007, 08:32 PM

yeah, I just looked through the big fight scene of the seven corps... how would love, compassion, or hope fight?

luthor

12-13-2007, 08:33 PM

I think the success of many lanterns storyline depends who are the key lanterns. The Yellow Lantern All Stars™ were big, scary threats from all across the DCU. If they just throw a bunch of Star Sapphire with no real identities, no ones going to give a rats ass.

davegraham

12-13-2007, 08:49 PM

yeah, I just looked through the big fight scene of the seven corps... how would love, compassion, or hope fight?

People fight for love and for hope. I dont think those will be a big problem. Compassion is the tricky one for combat. Who is to say these laneterns have to use their rings for fighting? The prophesy says they will fight each other, but that doesn't mean that is the function that those rings are designed for. Also doesn't the emotion just fuel the ring? One full of the emotion could still use the ring for whatever purpose they want. Or am I getting the ring science wrong?

euchre0

12-13-2007, 08:58 PM

I think you are on the right track (more so than me, probably) so i guess it makes sense that if someone is a compassionate person, they can fuel the ring and even have lapses of compassion while using it.

Then again, didn't the fear that was instilled fuel the yellow rings, as opposed to the person who was wearing it being fearful or afraid?

kahunablair

12-13-2007, 10:28 PM

And the good times keep rolling on,
Punisher War Journal... don't know why I picked it up, but I did. It's a lot of fun, plus the art ain't to bad, neither.
Green Arrow - Black Canary... I really can't believe how much I like this title. I never even picked up a Green Arrow book before. Now I have to go buy Quiver... damn it.

I like it. I think it's a lot like being a little kid and taking your action figures and bashing them together. I'm a sucker for Scott McDaniel's art and I've been surprised how versatile his style is. I didn't think he'd be able to do the space/sci fi stuff. The scripts aren't great but for this story I don't really think they need to be. It's just stupid mindless fun.
Good to hear I'm not the only one enjoying this mindless fun. The Art doesn't really do it for me, but it's not so bad that I'm not going to pick up the next one.

cam-

12-13-2007, 10:54 PM

If they just throw a bunch of Star Sapphire with no real identities, no ones going to give a rats ass.

Well if they're a bunch of hot ladies, I will.

Yeesh did I just say that?

labor_days

12-13-2007, 11:49 PM

itsbecca

12-13-2007, 11:59 PM

Well, I'm going out and saying that it is bad.

I bough the third trade of 52 yesterday and I'm struck by the quality of it compared to Countdown, they're not even in the same league.

That is what bothers me. If 52 hadn't just happened I would be more empathetic towards the quality. But it has and we see how good a weekly can be if the time and talent is there.

And the good times keep rolling on,
Punisher War Journal... don't know why I picked it up, but I did. It's a lot of fun, plus the art ain't to bad, neither.

I was close to picking up PWJ this week, but already had a lot of books on my plate. I miss the utter sillyness, intentional or not.

Walking Dead was like a punch in the stomach. I can't accept both female badasses being gone. Especially Michonne. I would've rather seen anyone else go, aside from maybe Rick. In fact, I don't accept it. There's more to it. There's no way that lard ass put down that sword weilding maniac ***** that made me feel safe for everyone else. Now I don't feel safe. Now I feel sick.

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 12:33 AM

OK, yesterday I had a couple of complaints on X-factor and GA/BC. Read a few more last night and this morning, but I'm only getting to my thoughts now.

Wonder Woman #15 - Gail Simone's first issue wasn't bad, but I wasn't necessarily compelled to continue. However, I picked up this one, and...damn, I have to say it's sticking with me. Some good stuff in here. I love the concept of the Circle. I love the representation of the Lasso of Truth. The only thing I don't really like is that it's not very new reader friendly. So much of the state of paradise island is based on recent continuity. In fact, I read this the same week as GA/BC and they seem like very different places. It could be because of events in Countdown, but I don't read that. So if that reliance on the rest of the DCU really starts to affect this book's quality, I'll be disappointed.

New Avengers #37 - I didn't mind this book as much as some of you. The banter was fun. It does seem like Bendis doesn't know exactly what he wants to do with some of these characters, though. And I agree that they should have colored the "fake" heroes slightly differently, just to help the reader appreciate what was happening. I did like the dialogue, though. Just kinda "pretty good" for me.

Fantastic Four #552 - Nice reveal from last month's cliffhanger. I'm not a big FF fan, but McDuffie is making this a REALLY fun book. I never thought I'd say this, but this issue is close to being my POW just for sheer fun.

BPRD: Killing Ground #5 - Now, so far, THIS is probably my POW. Lots of answers, some great scenes, and a great cliffhanger. Really good stuff.

Still have more to read, but that's my take so far...

six-gun

12-14-2007, 01:03 AM

That is what bothers me. If 52 hadn't just happened I would be more empathetic towards the quality. But it has and we see how good a weekly can be if the time and talent is there.

agreed completely

labor_days

12-14-2007, 03:54 AM

Well, I'm glad Barbara Gordon has gotten all walk-y like Professor X. http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/5/12/13/f_drym_d21099d.gif

Seriously, Bendis writes very trite comic books. I'm sorry if you like New Avengers and see why one might think this is worthwhile. But, no. That is not good comics.

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 04:15 AM

Seriously, Bendis writes very trite comic books. I'm sorry if you like New Avengers and see why one might think this is worthwhile. But, no. That is not good comics.

Aw, that's just sour grapes. Seriously. Alias, Jinx, Torso...no.

Has he written trite stuff? Maybe. But to say he writes trite comic books is not a true statement by any means.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 04:30 AM

humphrey-lee

12-14-2007, 04:36 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna say Green Lantern was POW. Every page was an "oh shit!" moment. The Guardians taking out the Anti-Monitor, the people of Coast City shining their green lights, Lost Lanterns showing up. And of course, Sinestro being a total badass, laughing as the GLs take life. His work already done.

Total fanboy comic. I loved it.

And honestly, that's probably why it isn't but everyone wants it to be. Obviously it's a very good story, and really exciting at times, but really it's more a product of geekdom and hype than anything. I mean, I know WHY it's a POW book, because it's the last part of a story everyone has gone rabid for over the past six months or so so everyone is in a frenzy for it, but there was a solid handful of that sort of class of "consistnetly good but never talked about" books that were honestly "better" like Scalped and Walking Dead but not as exciting. It'd be like judging a week of televisions shows where stuff like The Wire and I dunno, Rome or whatever are just showing another typical episode but Lost is on its season finale y'know?

And I'm not picking a fight here with you Labor my man, it's just that for a day now I've been seeing posts all over the net like "This is the best comic story I've ever read!" and other anxiously over-hyperbolied statements that make me wonder what kind of generic storytelling they are used to to have this be "the best story ever". I mean, come on, POW sure - I'll bite, but sometimes everyone has to stand up and learn to contain their inner fanboy just a weeeeee bit. :)

labor_days

12-14-2007, 04:43 AM

And honestly, that's probably why it isn't but everyone wants it to be. Obviously it's a very good story, and really exciting at times, but really it's more a product of geekdom and hype than anything. I mean, I know WHY it's a POW book, because it's the last part of a story everyone has gone rabid for over the past six months or so so everyone is in a frenzy for it, but there was a solid handful of that sort of class of "consistnetly good but never talked about" books that were honestly "better" like Scalped and Walking Dead but not as exciting. It'd be like judging a week of televisions shows where stuff like The Wire and I dunno, Rome or whatever are just showing another typical episode but Lost is on its season finale y'know?

And I'm not picking a fight here with you Labor my man, it's just that for a day now I've been seeing posts all over the net like "This is the best comic story I've ever read!" and other anxiously over-hyperbolied statements that make me wonder what kind of generic storytelling they are used to to have this be "the best story ever". I mean, come on, POW sure - I'll bite, but sometimes everyone has to stand up and learn to contain their inner fanboy just a weeeeee bit. :)
No way. I totally get what you are saying. I sorta agree too.

So happens, I read stuff like DMZ, Scalped, Ex Machina and such in trade. If I was getting those in issue it may be a different tale altogether.

Wouldn't go so far as to say GL's SCW is the best comic ever. But I certainly felt it was an exciting well plotted action book. For serialized monthly comics, SCW was aces.

No, I don't think there was a better book I read this week. GA/BC came close but that got wrapped up to quickly Too much exposition.

jimski

12-14-2007, 04:55 AM

Seriously, Bendis writes very trite comic books. I'm sorry if you like New Avengers and see why one might think this is worthwhile. But, no. That is not good comics.

I read this and actually added you to my Ignore list for about twenty minutes before cooler heads prevailed. :)

"Settle down, buddy. He's cool. Don't cut him out. Not everybody likes enjoying themselves."

labor_days

12-14-2007, 05:01 AM

humphrey-lee

12-14-2007, 05:04 AM

No way. I totally get what you are saying. I sorta agree too.

So happens, I read stuff like DMZ, Scalped, Ex Machina and such in trade. If I was getting those in issue it may be a different tale altogether.

Wouldn't go so far as to say GL's SCW is the best comic ever. But I certainly felt it was an exciting well plotted action book. For serialized monthly comics, SCW was aces.

No, I don't think there was a better book I read this week. GA/BC came close but that got wrapped up to quickly Too much exposition.

Yeah, that's another reason why I think those kinds of books get pushed back a bit too, everyone reads them in trades. Makes it easier for a "Solid and overly exciting" issue to bypass another really good issue in a consistently awesome series when everyone is reading said consistently awesome series in a format that only comes out twice a year.

I was actually looking forward to buying all of Sinestro Corps in an oversized HC, but it looks like they're going to have two volumes of it and I'm sorry, it's just not worth that much dinero to me. Maybe if they come out at 50% on DCBS, but on the whole it's not worth more than 30 bucks given how I felt about it overall. Plus, there's just way too much other stuff getting HC treatments next year. Gotta be more discerning.

And I second the GA/BC synopsis. Lot of good, but bogged down in the middle and rushed at the end to the cliffhangar.

humphrey-lee

12-14-2007, 05:06 AM

Sure, I know you guys love the Bendis. Really, I'm just being an arse out of frustration.

Bendis is way overrated. And his shitty dialogue and boring pacing in New Avengers has really borne that out for me. Again, I see why one might think this comic books. But yeah, no.

Except for Powers right now, which I think is where Bendis' creative juices are flowing the most, I don't think a single one of his comics is anything more than completely average right now. The way people are fawning over NA is almost as frustrating to me as randoms calling Sinestro Corps one of the "Best stories EVAR!" See? At least I'm consistent!

labor_days

12-14-2007, 05:07 AM

Winick loves killing people. Not that it was a surprise, previews.

jaflanagan

12-14-2007, 05:08 AM

Sure, I know you guys love the Bendis. Really, I'm just being an arse out of frustration.

Bendis is way overrated. And his shitty dialogue and boring pacing in New Avengers has really borne that out for me. Again, I see why one might think this comic books. But yeah, no.

Wow, that's me told. Guess I'll stop reading them, and try to figure out how my tiny intellect could be fooled by such inane writing.

Man, I didn't believe Darrell when he said it, but now, that's the end of it.

The dude's got a voice. You don't like that voice. That doesn't make him bad. He's clearly not bad. Put a poll up, start a thread. I bet he's more popular than Humberto Ramos. I mean, are you just trying to pick fights?

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 05:08 AM

"You want a pony?"
"I would like a pony."

That's enough for me. And I don't hold those other works of Bendis in very high regard. After Daredevil, Bendis has bored me beyond tears.

"It's nano-noleener"

Yeah, that's why Bendis gets the big bucks. /roll eyes and vomit.

To each his own, of course. But I'd definitely say there's a high level of craft, and if you've ever heard him talk about writing, you can see how he's constantly trying new things.

To pick out a couple of bits of dialogue seems disingenuous to me. It hardly says anything about the overall storyline and what's he's trying to accomplish.

I'd definitely stake even his lesser works against something like Suburban Glamour, which I enjoyed,...but still appears to tell a very basic fantasy coming of age story, ala Harry Potter.

Like I said -- to each his own, but "trite"? I can't accept that as a valid criticism. :)

labor_days

12-14-2007, 05:10 AM

The way people are fawning over NA is almost as frustrating to me as randoms calling Sinestro Corps one of the "Best stories EVAR!" See? At least I'm consistent!
Yeah, the difference being SCW had brisk pacing, fun action and story that was both simple & immediate while building on great DC lore (if one were so inclined).

labor_days

12-14-2007, 05:15 AM

The dude's got a voice. You don't like that voice. That doesn't make him bad. He's clearly not bad. Put a poll up, start a thread. I bet he's more popular than Humberto Ramos. I mean, are you just trying to pick fights?

Not at all. But I don't feel the need to bite my tongue or just shrug and say "well, agree to disagree" all the time. That makes for boring conversation and forums. It just goes without saying, that is my opinion.

Obviously, many people feel differently.

Popularity is the most laughable measure of worth. McDonalds sells billions of hamburgers. I wouldn't walk into McDonalds and have no qualms in turning my nose upward at that "food". Such that it is.

jimski

12-14-2007, 05:21 AM

Popularity is the most laughable measure of worth. McDonalds sells billions of hamburgers. I wouldn't walk into McDonalds and have no qualms in turning my nose upward at that "food". Such that it is.

Jay Leno gets the highest ratings in late night. Boggles my goddamn mind whenever I happen to think about it.

That having been said, Brian Bendis is not Jay Leno and f*** you. :)

labor_days

12-14-2007, 05:26 AM

jaflanagan

12-14-2007, 05:29 AM

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 05:30 AM

Yeah, the difference being SCW had brisk pacing, fun action and story that was both simple & immediate while building on great DC lore (if one were so inclined).

It's funny, I think I don't read much Johns any more for the same reason you don't read Bendia. I get that Johns is popular, and I think he's a decent craftsman, but I think too often he goes for a sort of Hollywood moment that ends up, to me, being trite.

In all fairness, it's not just the writing itself, but the fact that he's been sort of the continuity clean-up guy for years, and his works often end up being about moving a plot device into or out of play rather than creating anything truly moving.

This'll be unpopular here, but I thought his GL: Rebirth was absolutely boring because it was all exposition and continuity fixes, and the only actual plot movement was Hal going "I'm not taking it anymore!" and, you know, coming back. Took six issues to tell. No one but me thought it was padded as hell. :)

I'd stake most of Bendis' stuff against that. Even this current run in NA, while a few are bashing it, still maintains a level of plot and character that I dig. I"m not blown away by the current storyline, but I am happy with his overall take on both Avengers books.

His dialogue, of course, is a stylistic affectation. Fine if you don't like it. I do. And he knows how to use dialogue, which is something I still see some writers struggling with.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 05:34 AM

I'm not talking about the masses and popularity. I'm saying that I find the tone in which you say that insulting, because apparently you've clued into something that the rest of us knuckle dragged are too blinded by shiny lights to see. There's opinion and criticism, and then there's just snobbery.

So let's have the truth then, are you really John Byrne?
I consider myself the Ethan Van Scriver of comic book message boarding. In that I'm not afraid to say something is shite.

Every time Luke Cage says "GIRL!", I have an orgasm. Or vomit. Often times both.

Yeah, no qualms with snobbery. None.

jaflanagan

12-14-2007, 05:36 AM

Haha. That's the spirit, Jimski!

Don't be so timid or afraid your going to hurt someone's feelings. We're just message boarding here. A bit of bite, sarcasm and snakiness in our posts is good for the soul.

No big fuss.

Well, sort of. That superiority complex thing has poisoned many an Internet community. But here you just sound like whatever whackadoo was trying to convince us that John Lennon wasn't all that great in that other thread. I mean, ****ing come on!

labor_days

12-14-2007, 05:38 AM

It's funny, I think I don't read much Johns any more for the same reason you don't read Bendia. I get that Johns is popular, and I think he's a decent craftsman, but I think too often he goes for a sort of Hollywood moment that ends up, to me, being trite.

In all fairness, it's not just the writing itself, but the fact that he's been sort of the continuity clean-up guy for years, and his works often end up being about moving a plot device into or out of play rather than creating anything truly moving.

This'll be unpopular here, but I thought his GL: Rebirth was absolutely boring because it was all exposition and continuity fixes, and the only actual plot movement was Hal going "I'm not taking it anymore!" and, you know, coming back. Took six issues to tell. No one but me thought it was padded as hell. :)

I'd stake most of Bendis' stuff against that. Even this current run in NA, while a few are bashing it, still maintains a level of plot and character that I dig. I"m not blown away by the current storyline, but I am happy with his overall take on both Avengers books.

His dialogue, of course, is a stylistic affectation. Fine if you don't like it. I do. And he knows how to use dialogue, which is something I still see some writers struggling with.

Actually, you're pretty OTM in lot of your thoughts on Johns. I felt the same way for a long time. Very average. Not bad but dude was coasting for a long time.

However, I think now that Johns has got his house in order- he's getting at some really intriguing plotlines and building up some characters he could not have done otherwise. Managing to make me very interested in DCU proper.

I'm not even a DC guy by birth. I love that Marvel shit. It's just too bad so much of Marvel has been...well, shit. To be frank.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 05:44 AM

Well, sort of. That superiority complex thing has poisoned many an Internet community. But here you just sound like whatever whackadoo was trying to convince us that John Lennon wasn't all that great in that other thread. I mean, ****ing come on!

Alright, Josh. Seriously, I'm just taking a bit of the piss out of Bendis. He'll get over it. You will get over it.

I don't know why you always think I'm trying to change anyone's mind about something. That's crazy bro.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 06:18 AM

The thing that I like about Black Adam, in character and series, is that the specter of collateral damage is always present.

I'm a big advocate of people dying after a dude with the power of "a million sons" tears up a city. Comics take the easy way out a lot of times. And that's fine. But when Adam is around, I'm a little nervous for the folks sitting in the diner unaware of the level of death Adam can bring upon them.

projektidiot

12-14-2007, 07:26 AM

I dub this thread the Labor_Days talks to himself Collective.

paper

12-14-2007, 11:41 AM

mikegraham6

12-14-2007, 01:24 PM

Yeah, to me that says "We are in a war with the Sinestro Corps and it's okay to kill them now that we have the ability to kill."

Anything else doesn't make sense to me in terms of the story.

now that the War is over, can't the guardians just recind the killing mandate?

jimski

12-14-2007, 01:47 PM

This'll be unpopular here, but I thought his GL: Rebirth was absolutely boring because it was all exposition and continuity fixes, and the only actual plot movement was Hal going "I'm not taking it anymore!" and, you know, coming back. Took six issues to tell. No one but me thought it was padded as hell. :) I bought GL: Rebirth #1! I think. The cover in Wikipedia doesn't look like what I remember buying, but that doesn't mean much anymore. Anyway, I bought Green Lantern: Something Something #1 by Johns a few years ago, and when I was done I needed to have someone else look at it and reassure me it wasn't in Portuguese. Whatever It that Johns may have is an It that I do not get.

It's not just my usual DC continuity ignorance, either. I picked up his Avengers run just because everyone was saying, "Ooh, Johns on the Avengers!" and left wondering, "How is this guy this popular? Is he doing something I'm not noticing?" At the time, I thought maybe he just wasn't excited by writing Jack of Hearts and Ant-Man; would you be?

mikegraham6

12-14-2007, 02:00 PM

Define "A LOT" vs. 3 or 4 dudes.

im one as well, in case i never mentioned it...

ryan79

12-14-2007, 02:18 PM

So the Blue Lanterns are going to basically use a version of the Care Bear stare to defeat their opponents?

mikegraham6

12-14-2007, 02:31 PM

oh by the way, The Sinestro War wasn't the best thing ever. It was said prior that this is the definitive GL story, and i see no problem with that statement. Are there better comics released this week? almost definitely, but in the same respect, the POW doesn't mean the most well written book of the week, it's the one you had the most fun reading, and GL was a helluva a lot of fun to read. It was a friggin popcorn movie, and what the hell is wrong with enjoying a huge action flick every now and again. People need to stop taking life so goddamn seriously, it's okay to enjoy mindless fun every once and a while.
As for the Bendis/Johns topic, I think Paper is right on the money here. They write so many books that not everything can be solid gold. You can't argue with Bendis' ability to write natural dialogue or Johns' ability to clean up continuity or make sense of silver age goodfiness, you just CAN"T! Anyone who thinks Bendis is overrated isn't reading Powers or hasn't read Alias, im sorry but that statement is wrong

cam-

12-14-2007, 03:03 PM

Whoooa an overnight explosion of evil on the review thread!!

Fie on thee haters, FIE!!

But seriously

RE: Bendis. THe problem with the most recent issue of NA was (in my mind) Leniel Francis Yu. It was consistently unclear as to what was happening within the fight scene, and for a grand concept like "holographic extra good guys" (which maybe isn't that "grand" a concept ;)) the unclear sketchy-ness that is Yu's art didn't work. Imagine if Cho had drawn the extended fight scene, or even just compare it to the Mighty Avengers Ultron fight scene, clear dynamic stuff.

I don't think we lavish unwarrented praise around on this board much at all, because we realize that not all works are perfect. Still the lack of specifics in what you hate about Bendis' works is troubling. "Shitty dialogue"? Where? Boring Pacing? It has been said before, but Bendis has also said he's working to address that, AND is affected by outside factors i.e. Cho's drawing speed.

cam-

12-14-2007, 03:14 PM

Re: Johns and the Sinestro Corps war,

I mentioned it earlier this week, the thing that was most impressive (again, to me) is the potential for years of storytelling that this sets up. It was fairly standard GOod guy fight bad guy story, but there were some genuine moments of excitment within that. But moreso, the possibilities!!!!

Can it be Johns learned a little of "being the idea man" from old Grant there in 52?

So yeah, not the POW for me, but certainly great comic booking, and ultimately isn't that what were here for?

I mean ragging on 2 of the most appreciated writers in the business is an interesting prospect, but seriously, why not ***** about Daniel Way, or Frank Tieri? (although I hear Tieri's doing okay with the gotham Underground, I've never been a fan).

cam-

12-14-2007, 03:17 PM

now that the War is over, can't the guardians just recind the killing mandate?

I wondered that too. Depends on your interpretation of "Law" I guess. Legal Law, which changes in extreme cases depending on circumstance? Or scientific law, which cannot be changed?

cam-

12-14-2007, 03:20 PM

In other news, how about CrawlSpace:XXXombies?

As far as fantastic "bits" go, a porn star zombie crawling toward a dude's crotch? Doesn't get much more 'grindhouse' than that.

And this:

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0708/22/crawlspace2.jpg

is a fantastic cover. (maybe should've put that in the covers thread)

Good fun.

jaflanagan

12-14-2007, 03:25 PM

I wondered that too. Depends on your interpretation of "Law" I guess. Legal Law, which changes in extreme cases depending on circumstance? Or scientific law, which cannot be changed?

Even if they rescind it, one way or the other, the knowledge is always there that there's an option to go back. You can't take that out of people's minds.

Chalk up one win for Sinestro!

No matter what laws we pass, no other countries will ever forget that the US did, in fact, drop "the bomb." The mental impact of that choice isn't going anywhere.

cam-

12-14-2007, 03:32 PM

Even if they rescind it, one way or the other, the knowledge is always there that there's an option to go back. You can't take that out of people's minds.

Chalk up one win for Sinestro!

No matter what laws we pass, no other countries will ever forget that the US did, in fact, drop "the bomb." The mental impact of that choice isn't going anywhere.

Ultra valid, well done Josh.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 04:34 PM

RE: Bendis. THe problem with the most recent issue of NA was (in my mind) Leniel Francis Yu. It was consistently unclear as to what was happening within the fight scene, and for a grand concept like "holographic extra good guys" (which maybe isn't that "grand" a concept ;)) the unclear sketchy-ness that is Yu's art didn't work. Imagine if Cho had drawn the extended fight scene, or even just compare it to the Mighty Avengers Ultron fight scene, clear dynamic stuff.

Eh, I like Yu for the most part. This issue was a little confusing in the action. But I don't think that was it's biggest problem so much as it was basically filler with some haphazard lines about Skrulls thrown in to remind us WHATS REALLY IMPORTANT.

Major lolz @ anytime the NA mention Skrulls. Major lolz.

Still the lack of specifics in what you hate about Bendis' works is troubling. "Shitty dialogue"? Where? Boring Pacing? It has been said before, but Bendis has also said he's working to address that, AND is affected by outside factors i.e. Cho's drawing speed.
I was specific. The way Bendis writes his banter is not funny. It's stupid.
His Luke Cage is very close to being a caricature shouting "GIRL!", "BABY MAMA!", "THIS SHIT!" and so on.

Boring pacing in that Ninja fight that went on for months. This limp Hood battle that he had to sell the faux-severity of by having characters say things like; "Wasn't that a HARD fight?", "Yeah that fight was VERY DIFFICULT". Not good comics.

Outside factors I am not forgiving of. This is not good comic books when Bendis writes a scene where a woman is suggestively sexually assaulted. No. Not at all.

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 04:57 PM

Johns and Bendis are both near the top of my favorite comic scribe list. They consistently put out books that engage me. Sometime they are excellent. They make me feel something. Sometimes they fall short. I forgive this because they write a lot of books and have so much on their plates. It's also a collaborative medium and sometimes they need to make compromises. But there's always something in there to take home. There's some idea, whether good or bad that teaches me something about storytelling. Because they experiment and try new things.

With Bendis it's a little more brazen. And I respect his courage quite a lot. For Johns it's often subtle things. I'm not sure exactly how he does it. But Johns is capable of getting me all misty eyed by the end of a single issue. We talk a lot about craft and technique, but this storytelling game is not precision. It's not science. I like seeing the brush strokes, because that's a link to another human being I probably haven't met yet. And that's cool to me.

Good assessment, paper. I mostly agree. I think I fall away from Johns a bit more, not because I think he's untalented, but more because some of this stuff feels a little safer and some of it feels like it's all about fixing some sort of continuity. And that's not necessarily his fault. I have a real beef with stories that are designed to set up, change, or fix a status quo because they seem to be geared toward stage-setting rather than the journey itself.

That said, I have been feeling like it's time to jump back on JSA and give him another shot.

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 05:12 PM

His Luke Cage is very close to being a caricature shouting "GIRL!", "BABY MAMA!", "THIS SHIT!" and so on. Hate to tell ya, but I know plenty of people who talk like this every day. It's hardly a caricature. I completely disagree. Bendis' Cage is a more three dimensional character than he's been in years. He's allowed the guy to grow, rather than keeping him as an iconic caricature.

Boring pacing in that Ninja fight that went on for months. This limp Hood battle that he had to sell the faux-severity of by having characters say things like; "Wasn't that a HARD fight?", "Yeah that fight was VERY DIFFICULT". Not good comics. It's never about the fights with Bendis, though. It's about this group of people trying to figure out what the hell they're doing, and the fight is just an obstacle. Thus, you'll have issues like the last one, where the fight scenes is talked about after the fact, and the real core of the issue is Cage talking to his wife and trying to figure out what's going on with the whole Skrull revelation. I dig stuff like that. It would be so easy to just to little 4-part arcs where a villain tries to take over the world and the Avengers find a clever way to beat him/her. But Bendis is often trying to break it out of that paradigm. Sometimes it leads to wonky pacing. But I've read all those simple, cliche stories. Succeed or fail, I appreciate that he's always trying to do something different with VERY mainstream comic books.

This is not good comic books when Bendis writes a scene where a woman is suggestively sexually assaulted. No. Not at all.I don't get this at all. So...what? Only men in comics can be attacked? Yeah, cuz...that never happens in real life.Or, if women are attacked, you have to go out of your way to NOT show that she has breasts? I've never understood this complaint.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 05:31 PM

Hate to tell ya, but I know plenty of people who talk like this every day. It's hardly a caricature. I completely disagree. Bendis' Cage is a more three dimensional character than he's been in years. He's allowed the guy to grow, rather than keeping him as an iconic caricature.
Yes, but you are overlooking the fact Cage is saying some varation on "street talk" all the time.

Cage is either an idoit or sterotype. Pick one Bendis.

It would be so easy to just to little 4-part arcs where a villain tries to take over the world and the Avengers find a clever way to beat him/her. But Bendis is often trying to break it out of that paradigm. Sometimes it leads to wonky pacing. But I've read all those simple, cliche stories. Succeed or fail, I appreciate that he's always trying to do something different with VERY mainstream comic books.
He's failing at it. House Of M, Secret War, Illuminati, Mighty and New Avengers.

I like decompression. This is not decompression. This is boring.

It's quite hard for me to take anyone seriously trying to tell me that for the past 6+ months, NA has been anything less than middling-to-awful.

I don't get this at all. So...what? Only men in comics can be attacked? Yeah, cuz...that never happens in real life. Now you are being foolish.

A) Woman was in the shower.
B) Dude approached her from behind.
C) The art clearly suggested sexual penetration and pleasure
D) A knife is at her throat
E) She turns around nonchalantly, giving her assailant and comic readers, the full view (or as best Marvel can do without showing nips)
F) Oh and another woman happens to walk into the shower and say "Whoops, my bad!"

Nay, my friend. Nay.

kahunablair

12-14-2007, 05:51 PM

C) The art clearly suggested sexual penetration and pleasure

Wait... What?

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 05:53 PM

Yes, but you are overlooking the fact Cage is saying some varation on "street talk" all the time.

Cage is either an idoit or sterotype. Pick one Bendis.

I have no idea what you're getting at. Are you saying that he should only speak in "street talk" sometimes? Or else he's a stereotype?

Wow...I have a good friend. He's African American. When he talks to a business customer on the phone, he can turn on the King's English, but among friends (his teammates, if you will), he sounds pretty much like Cage all the time. My friend is neither an idiot or a stereotype.

The last issue, which is essentially one long conversation between Jessica and Cage, was not stereotypical OR idiotic.

He's failing at it. House Of M, Secret War, Illuminati, Mighty and New Avengers.
Because you don't like what he's aiming for or what he's done, does not mean he's failed. Say it doesn't work for you. But your tone here is what Josh was talking about...you present this as if it was fact, rather than your opinion.

Now you are being foolish.

A) Woman was in the shower.
B) Dude approached her from behind.
C) The art clearly suggested sexual penetration and pleasure
D) A knife is at her throat
E) She turns around nonchalantly, giving her assailant and comic readers, the full view (or as best Marvel can do without showing nips)
F) Oh and another woman happens to walk into the shower and say "Whoops, my bad!"

I thought you were talking about the Tigra/Hood scene, so we have a miscommunication.

The rest of this is crap, though. Wolverine gets in the shower so she can't use her powers on him. Point "C" sounds like you want to see something that's not there. I didn't read that at ALL. Turning around nonchalantly is...now sexual? Or maybe it's because someone came at her in the shower, and she's turning around to face him? Because, you know, that's what the CHARACTER would do? Hell, that's what anyone would do. Another teammate walks into the shower (it's like a locker room) and isn't sure what to make of it. And that...figures into your sexual assault complaint how...?

Sorry, not buying it.

jaflanagan

12-14-2007, 06:16 PM

It's quite hard for me to take anyone seriously trying to tell me that for the past 6+ months, NA has been anything less than middling-to-awful.

Now you are being foolish.

A) So, you must be hating the shows we're doing lately.

B) Try not to directly insult people. You can disagree with an assessment or critique or opinion, but actually calling someone foolish is dismissive and disrespectful.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 06:17 PM

No dudes. Spider-Woman breaks the frame, in the middle of the page undressing. In the lower corner of page to the left, her eyes are closed in the shower. On that page, she moans, tosses her head back as someone comes up behind. On the next page it's Wolverine with his claws to her. She turns around without covering herself and acts like it's no big deal a dude is in the shower with her. Any woman would have put her hand on her chest.

That scene is there for titillation.

That's garbage.

jimski

12-14-2007, 06:19 PM

Wait a minute...

...has anybody seen Darrell?

labor_days

12-14-2007, 06:24 PM

A) So, you must be hating the shows we're doing lately.

B) Try not to directly insult people. You can disagree with an assessment or critique or opinion, but actually calling someone foolish is dismissive and disrespectful.

A: I fast forward through the stuff I don't read/care about.

B: I only phrased it like that because it is Dave and he's a regular. I would/have said the same thing to Kahuna or Paper. I don't mean it to be offensive. We're all chums. I doubt any of them have a second thought about telling me I'm a crazy mofo.

We can take it, Josh.

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 07:04 PM

B: I only phrased it like that because it is Dave and he's a regular. I would/have said the same thing to Kahuna or Paper. I don't mean it to be offensive. We're all chums. I doubt any of them have a second thought about telling me I'm a crazy mofo.

Yeah, I figured that out about you during the great "Comic Shops Should Organize by Genre" debate. ;) (the phrasing part, that is -- not the crazy mofo part.)

Personally, I tend to try to stick to language like "I didn't get it" and "It didn't work for me" because so much of this is based on opinion. If it really was objective, someone would long ago have figured out the formula and then everything made since then would automatically appeal to EVERYONE now.

Also, I've seen too many of these things blow up on message boards before.

But... since we're all chums...you ARE a crazy mofo! :cool:

kahunablair

12-14-2007, 07:05 PM

A: I fast forward through the stuff I don't read/care about.

B: I only phrased it like that because it is Dave and he's a regular. I would/have said the same thing to Kahuna or Paper. I don't mean it to be offensive. We're all chums. I doubt any of them have a second thought about telling me I'm a crazy mofo.

We can take it, Josh.

Yeah, but we aren't the only ones reading your posts, brother. Not everyone's going to get your sense of humor.
Heck there's sometimes I don't even get it.

cam-

12-14-2007, 07:06 PM

kwok_talk

12-14-2007, 07:09 PM

Hey folks! Thought we could use something to cheer us up and unify us again.

Daniel Way's Ghost Rider - angel of Heaven??!?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2250/2110625187_75c98ca09a_o.jpg

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 07:13 PM

Hey folks! Thought we could use something to cheer us up and unify us again.

Daniel Way's Ghost Rider - angel of Heaven??!?

I'm not reading this book, but I've been following this.

Really intriguing to me.

I've always liked Ghost Rider. With Way leaving and SCALPED's Jason Aaron taking over, I think I'm totally gonna start getting this.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 07:25 PM

Yeah, but we aren't the only ones reading your posts, brother. Not everyone's going to get your sense of humor.
Heck there's sometimes I don't even get it.

Yeah, I figured that out about you during the great "Comic Shops Should Organize by Genre" debate. (the phrasing part, that is -- not the crazy mofo part.)

Personally, I tend to try to stick to language like "I didn't get it" and "It didn't work for me" because so much of this is based on opinion.

Totally understand where you bros are coming from. I am a snide, sarcastic and cheeky bastard. That doesn't always come through on your end as I think it does. Totally.

But yeah, after a while you gotta trust the fact that; A. I'm not cursing your name under my breath and B. we're all full of it to one degree or another.

The rest is just a matter of being adjusted enough not to get upset over internet banter. You can't preface everything with "In my opinion". And the sort of dry "Well, this is not for me but it's a-ok if you like it! Don't hate me guys!" chatter is every bit as detrimental as "go **** yourself, idiot!" trolling in a online community. And even if one did go out of their way not to rock the boat, so to speak, I find that to be terribly boring message boarding.

I'm fine with kicking things around with you dudes and don't mind getting kicked back for being in the minority every once in awhile. It's fun. Let's give it a go!

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 07:26 PM

Way and Aaron also have an interview about this revelation (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=139735) up at Newsarama.

I liked this bit:
Well, let's see...what do we know of Ghost Rider? He avenges the innocent. He wields (righteous?) fire. He roots out and destroys evil--and then blasts them with the penance stare, making them both relive and atone for their sins. Really--does that sound not like something an agent of Heaven would do? I'd imagine that agents of Hell would want people to prey on the innocent, to spill as much blood as possible. As I wrote in the book, didn't anyone think it was odd that a demon would spend all its time chasing down and frying bad guys?Man has a point...I kinda like it...

kwok_talk

12-14-2007, 07:29 PM

I think he just looks silly with angel wings. Yes, I'm a shallow man. :)

labor_days

12-14-2007, 07:31 PM

So Ghost Rider is the Spectre now? Sweet.

I still won't read anything about Ghost Rider. I'm sorry. Badass design but no.

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 07:35 PM

You can't preface everything with "In my opinion". And the sort of dry "Well, this is not for me but it's a-ok if you like it! Don't hate me guys!" chatter is every bit as detrimental as "go **** yourself, idiot!" trolling in a online community. And even if one did go out of their way not to rock the boat, so to speak, I find that to be terribly boring message boarding.

It's not really about prefacing anything. It takes the same effort to say "I thought the pacing was lousy" as it does to say "you're an idiot if you think the pacing was good!" Still saying the same thing, and it leads to the same discussion. That's the point I was making. That said, I'm not offended by your tone. It's obvious you like the snark. ;) It takes more than that to offend me. I'm only pointing out how I choose to approach these types of discussions. Because my way is clearly better. :D

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 07:36 PM

I think he just looks silly with angel wings. Yes, I'm a shallow man. :)

I don't think he always has them though, does he?

cam-

12-14-2007, 07:38 PM

B. we're all full of it to one degree or another.

Whoa, speak for yourself Ar tard, the only thing I'm full of is Awesomeness.

Unless that's the "it" you were refering too, in which case YEAH!!!!

ANNNNNNNNNYways, clearly I'm kidding.

Moving on, I can't believe I'm actually gonna buy ANOTHER Ghost Rider book when Aaron get's onboard. I bought the first one of the WWH crossover, and yeesh what a waste of time and money.

Also, did anyone read the Red Son: Search for Ray Palmer book? Any good?

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 07:39 PM

So Ghost Rider is the Spectre now? Sweet.

I still won't read anything about Ghost Rider. I'm sorry. Badass design but no.

That's my thing...I always dug the Spectre, but that cat still wears green panties and booties.

Meanwhile GR is a leather-clad badass skeleton with his head on fire. So give his story a good twist and good writing, and I'm down with it.

I'll definitely test out Aaron's run.

jaflanagan

12-14-2007, 08:17 PM

Yeah, but we aren't the only ones reading your posts, brother. Not everyone's going to get your sense of humor.
Heck there's sometimes I don't even get it.

That's the thing. I want to grow this community, and I want it to be inviting and friendly. Busting balls makes it exclusive, rather than inclusive. Please keep in mind that there are others lurking and I want people to feel free to give their opinions without being attacked, either in jest or for real.

I love the community that's been built up here because of the mutual amity and respect people show each other.

If you must play the jerk, please use copious emoticons.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 08:30 PM

Generally, I am anti-emoticon. And believe people can take their New Avengers comic being scoffed at without too much heartbreak. Yeah.

davegraham

12-14-2007, 08:39 PM

Hey, did this week's X-Factor take place in the same future time line as Halo? Those human's policing the mutant camp looked very Master Chief-like. Did anyone else notice that?

kahunablair

12-14-2007, 08:39 PM

That's my thing...I always dug the Spectre, but that cat still wears green panties and booties.

I've always wanted to see a different version of Spectre. Something creepier and a bit darker.
Maybe all he appears to be is a Green hooded robe. His "face" could be a white motionless mask. Give him more of a Grim Reaper vibe.

davegraham

12-14-2007, 08:47 PM

I've always wanted to see a different version of Spectre. Something creepier and a bit darker.
Maybe all he appears to be is a Green hooded robe. His "face" could be a white motionless mask. Give him more of a Grim Reaper vibe.

But then what kind of vibe would you give the Grim Reaper? The two of them are on or near the same level. I think they should be distinguishable.

I always liked the way Hal Jordan looked as the Spectre, because it mixed the spiritual with 20th/21st century heroic appearance. And that seems like what the character is. A superhero, but also an entity in the DC universes cosmic side.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 08:52 PM

kahunablair

12-14-2007, 08:59 PM

But then what kind of vibe would you give the Grim Reaper? The two of them are on or near the same level. I think they should be distinguishable.
Well I'm not saying give the guy a sickle. I meant in more of a creepiness factor. The Spectre should be feared. I wouldn't really say that my version would be the heroic one, he wouldn't have his own series or be part of a team. I'd really push up the Spirit of Vengeance aspect.

I always liked the way Hal Jordan looked as the Spectre, because it mixed the spiritual with 20th/21st century heroic appearance. And that seems like what the character is. A superhero, but also an entity in the DC universes cosmic side.
Even though its not the way I'd take it, I liked that combo a lot as well. If he's bonded with a hero then you can't go my route at all.
Who is the Spectre with now? I don't remember seeing him recently.

luthor

12-14-2007, 09:01 PM

I've always wanted to see a different version of Spectre. Something creepier and a bit darker.
Maybe all he appears to be is a Green hooded robe. His "face" could be a white motionless mask. Give him more of a Grim Reaper vibe.

It doesn't make sense to me that Spectre isn't being used in a Vertigo book. Spectre is more Vertigo-y then, say, Deadman.

kahunablair

12-14-2007, 09:06 PM

It doesn't make sense to me that Spectre isn't being used in a Vertigo book. Spectre is more Vertigo-y then, say, Deadman.

Exactly. Give me a Vertigo story in which God decides that, after the whole Parallax thing, bonding Spectre to a human is to risky. He decides rather to make the Spectre take a compatriot to guide him, ala Kingdom Come.
Or you can have him follow around the spirit of someone that's murdered. The person could try to figure out how they died, and when they finally did, they decide on whether the murderer should be punished or not.

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 09:06 PM

But then what kind of vibe would you give the Grim Reaper?

Well, the grim reaper is now a young goth chick, according to Neil Gaiman. ;)

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 09:11 PM

...please use copious emoticons.

There are emoticons to describe copiousness????

Man, i am so far behind in this crazy Web 2.0 world we live in...*

* ;)

jaflanagan

12-14-2007, 10:13 PM

I admire the fact Mr. Terrific is still skeptical about God with the Specter standing 3 ft. from him on occasion.

Mr. Terrific is badass. That's a series I would read; "Mr. Terrific doesn't believe in no ghosts".

Real talk.

Just curious, how is that "urban speak" funny when you do it for Mr. Terrific, and you're all but calling Bendis a racist for making Luke Cage talk like that?

Is it _______ (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hypocrisy)?

labor_days

12-14-2007, 10:16 PM

I made that up. It's a play on the Ghostbusters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2SOdrHWDkw) song. Not something Mr. Terrific actually said.

ryan79

12-14-2007, 11:03 PM

Hey, did this week's X-Factor take place in the same future time line as Halo? Those human's policing the mutant camp looked very Master Chief-like. Did anyone else notice that?

Thank God I wasn't the only one that was thinking this.

jaflanagan

12-14-2007, 11:04 PM

Then Ray Parker Jr. is a crude stereotype made by a lazy writer.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 11:10 PM

Then Ray Parker Jr. is a crude stereotype made by a lazy writer.
Ray Parker Jr. was also a hack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Parker_Jr.).

I prefer the smooth sounds of Rockwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_%28musician%29), myself.

dave-accampo

12-14-2007, 11:22 PM

Exactly. Give me a Vertigo story in which God decides that, after the whole Parallax thing, bonding Spectre to a human is to risky. He decides rather to make the Spectre take a compatriot to guide him, ala Kingdom Come.
Or you can have him follow around the spirit of someone that's murdered. The person could try to figure out how they died, and when they finally did, they decide on whether the murderer should be punished or not.

That's kinda like 100 Bullets, but with the Spectre instead of the briefcase with the untraceable gun and bullets. I kinda like it.

But agreed - these supernatural characters have tons of potential, and I've always been drawn to them. I've always wanted to see more done with them. Spectre, Dr. Fate, Deadman, Phantom Stranger...I feel like all these guys are one Sandman away from a phenomenal series. many of them have had multiple chances, but it's never...quite...there...

luthor

12-14-2007, 11:28 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again...Black Adam is my mini of the year. I freaking love it.

labor_days

12-14-2007, 11:29 PM

Moreso than Green Arrow: Y1 or SubGlam*?

*I couldn't resist Luthor.

luthor

12-15-2007, 01:40 AM

Moreso than Green Arrow: Y1 or SubGlam*?

*I couldn't resist Luthor.

I only really hated the first issue of SubGlam, didn't mind the second as much but still don't think it's the book for me.

As for Green Arrow:Y1...I thought parts of it were really good but I think it could probably been shortened by an issue or two and I found the whole almost love sub-story ridiculous and trite.

Tomasi seems to have an incredible grasp on the duality of of Black Adam, more so then anyone I've ever read(just as an aside, he and Rags Morales is something I cannot wait to see) and Doug Mahnke pencils are amazing. I loves it.

steve-m-

12-15-2007, 03:45 PM

Generally, I am anti-emoticon. And believe people can take their New Avengers comic being scoffed at without too much heartbreak. Yeah.

OK, i tend to be one of the lurkers Josh referred to, and I post only occassionally, but I usually read the threads I'm interested in. I went to bed with this being an iFanboy forum and woke up and it was newarama! what the ...?!

i'm only part way done catching up, but does this thread end with Labor asking for someone's address and swearing 'I will come to your house!" bc that is where it feels like it is going.

labor_days

12-15-2007, 04:04 PM

i'm only part way done catching up, but does this thread end with Labor asking for someone's address and swearing 'I will come to your house!" bc that is where it feels like it is going.

That's exactly how it happened. I take the internet seriously.

Address please.

six-gun

12-15-2007, 06:18 PM

Anyone reading Salvation Run? it's been ok

labor_days

12-15-2007, 06:21 PM

six-gun

12-15-2007, 06:27 PM

I'm reading Salvation Run.

If feel like it's been really uneven in tone. There are shades of straight forward sci-fi adventure, camp and satire. None of it seems to fit together very well.

I was looking forward to the series but it's...not good.

the parts that are good are great (Luther's speech this issue) everything else in middling, but I still think it's an ok read just not a good comic overall

six-gun

12-15-2007, 06:29 PM

That's exactly how it happened. I take the internet seriously.

Address please.

That's how we roll up in dese boards boi! Straight gangsta!

labor_days

12-15-2007, 06:37 PM

the parts that are good are great (Luther's speech this issue) everything else in middling, but I still think it's an ok read just not a good comic overall
Joker beating that dude to a pulp was great. And then Luthor shows up and gives a satirical speech about American values. Very odd.

That's how we roll up in dese boards boi! Straight gangsta!
Six, please refrain from "urban speech". You are no Bendis, sir*

*this is an intentionally sarcastic remark. i refuse to use copious emoticons.

luthor

12-15-2007, 06:49 PM

I'm reading it too. It's an ok book. Fun for what it is. My only complaint is that I wish they had stuck to lower tier rouges in the DCU. I think it would've been better served as a way to enhance B-C level characters. We already know Joker's nucking futs and that Lex's greatest ability is his influence over people, seeing it in this setting is redundant. Put someone else in those roles and you've set the stage for some big things.

labor_days

12-15-2007, 06:55 PM

To a degree, I agree with what you are saying. But I think the rather forced threat of the planet itself is my biggest gripe with Salvation Run.

There was the potential to have these criminals tear each other apart. An examination of how their megalomania, avarice and insanity ultimately brings them down. Even on a world where there is no outside threat. But it's like Logan's Run with villains at this point.

jgg0610

12-15-2007, 11:42 PM

Wow, I just finished reading the first five pages of posts and I think the lesson to be learned here is that when there is a really heavy week of books like this there will be more fights. ;)

Although I can normally stomach Yu on NA, somebody has got to replace this dude soon. This issue made no sense to me at all. The art was unfollowable.

I agree with others assessment of GA/BC. It was good up to the end.

POW for me is Booster Gold. I was a little worried when I saw last month that they were taking on the Killing Joke but this worked out really well. Having him go back repeatedly to realize that there are certain points in time that can't be changed was really good.

The other thing that I read this week that was incredible was Astronaut Dad. It's from a smaller publisher called Silent Devil. Wordballoon did an interview with the artist, Brent Schoonover, a few months ago and it sounded interesting so I checked it out. I think it's like 60-100 pages and it was only $6, so it's a good value. It's going to continue next year as a series of OGN's. It's set during the late 50's and early 60's and is about the space race. It's almost like From the Earth to the Moon (the HBO show) in book format.

kwok_talk

12-16-2007, 01:07 AM

Finally got my books before the weekend, so... here are my reviews
(http://kwoktalk.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=287894)
Green Lantern #25 was the book of the week for me, while New Warriors #6 was completely useless to me and was my last issue of it for now. Karate Kid was the worst drawn character of the week.

six-gun

12-16-2007, 03:13 AM

Six, please refrain from "urban speech". You are no Bendis, sir*

*this is an intentionally sarcastic remark. i refuse to use copious emoticons.

Wen used sparingly, it's my greatest weapon of dry humor

six-gun

12-16-2007, 03:20 AM

Finally got my books before the weekend, so... here are my reviews (http://kwoktalk.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=287894)

good review man!

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "colorful" YU art ;)

I was a fan of the guy in the earlier issues when it was darker but this new color scheme just doesn't do it for me.

My opinion of NA is that the fight was too long and the best parts of the issue were confined to the last few pages. That being said, I though those parts were great, the way tat the Avengers got to a point to where they were like "let's finish this" and then kicked things into high gear was great and the stuff with the Hood rescuing his guys was a very awesome extension of this villain mafia motif.

One last thing, what's up with Bendis' dialog, he's suddenly started to throw in these trivial quips that are way to far out of character and kind of juvenile. The sloppy joe discussion between the two Shield guards came off as a cheap gag.

C+

six-gun

12-16-2007, 03:29 AM

Don Kramer's Nightwing art was freaking incredible and next month Rags Morales takes over!

Talk about a book doing a turnaround

jo11ypenguin

12-16-2007, 03:30 AM

Hey, did this week's X-Factor take place in the same future time line as Halo? Those human's policing the mutant camp looked very Master Chief-like. Did anyone else notice that?

It does in fact take place in the halo universe, the head solder guy has the ninja helmet, the sword on his back and sounds alot like a 13 year old child calling you gay over and over and over.

;)

conorkilpatrick

12-16-2007, 03:33 AM

One last thing, what's up with Bendis' dialog, he's suddenly started to throw in these trivial quips that are way to far out of character and kind of juvenile. The sloppy joe discussion between the two Shield guards came off as a cheap gag.

It's supposed to show that those guys are just working stiffs like everyone else - they talk about mundane stuff at the office too. It's one of the revolutionary things Lucas did in the first Star Wars movie - having the storm troopers just chatting about nothing while they were on guard duty.

jo11ypenguin

12-16-2007, 03:38 AM

did anyone pick up Bat Lash? I really enjoy Jonah Hex so I figured i would try another western. And I was kinda meh on the first issue. did anyone enjoy it?

neb

12-16-2007, 05:04 AM

One last thing, what's up with Bendis' dialog, he's suddenly started to throw in these trivial quips that are way to far out of character and kind of juvenile.

C+

Not to open the can of worms again, but this has been one of the things that I have found most annoying in NA lately. It seems that I'm so busy trying to laugh during the fights, that I'm not really paying attention to fights. And the one issue where Luke Cage is talking to Jessica Jones and she keeps repeating him was like reading a bad Aaron Sorkin script.

I enjoy Bendis' work. I love Powers and have scoped out most of his other work, but I feel like he needs to find more balance in NA. Also, they need to fire Yu from this book. His pencils have become horrible.

neb

12-16-2007, 05:05 AM

Don Kramer's Nightwing art was freaking incredible and next month Rags Morales takes over!

Talk about a book doing a turnaround

Six, I completely agree. Don Kramer was badass this week. I'm thinking I'm going to scope this book with the new creative team. Looks like it might be pretty good.

dave-accampo

12-16-2007, 06:04 AM

Wow, I just finished reading the first five pages of posts and I think the lesson to be learned here is that when there is a really heavy week of books like this there will be more fights. ;)

I hope no one thinks I'm pissed at Labor or anything...;). We're cool. I like to argue.

Finished off my books, finally:

Suicide Squad: man, this was one of my favorite books back in the day (yes, I have the entire original Ostrander run), but this somehow feels like a reunion gone wrong. I can't say it's bad, I mean...there's some interesting character stuff...but I guess...the thing is...there's really no PLOT. I'm a character guy, too, so if *I'M* saying it, something must be wrong. I guess it feels to me like they've spent four issues setting up something...pushing pieces into place to set up a new status quo for us. And I don't dig that kinda thing (see my complaints in this very thread, for example :D ).

Walking Dead: I feel a little "meh" on this, honestly. Anyone else feel like there was TOO much hype about this storyline? I don't think I really thought much about it, until everyone kept talking about how "no one is safe" and "anyone can die" and all that hype kinda made this story underwhelming. And I don't believe that michonne was killed off panel. There's something going on with that last scene. Right? Right?

Potter's Field #3 - Am I the only one who picked this up? This is Mark Waid's creator-owned series from Boom! Studios...I love the concept. And I think it's some of Waid's better writing to be honest. That said, #3 is the final issue and it felt very rushed. Not sure why this wasn't a four issue mini-series. It feels like that's what it was set up for. Anyway, the book is an interesting concept, and Waid's script is tight and clever, but the story was missing something. It wrapped up too quickly and ambiguously. It's like the axe came down too quickly on the final act. I would read more stories with this character, though.

humphrey-lee

12-16-2007, 06:28 AM

Don Kramer's Nightwing art was freaking incredible and next month Rags Morales takes over!

Talk about a book doing a turnaround

I'm looking forward to being able to buy a Nightwing comic again. I don't usually get into fanboy uproars, but DC running that title into the ground has pissed me off to no end. 70+ issues of Dixon making that book solid all around and they piddled it away. Travesty is the word here...

labor_days

12-16-2007, 06:55 AM

dave-accampo

12-16-2007, 07:13 AM

And Dave, I am terribly cross with you. Address please! ;-)

Oh yeah, almost forgot, here it is:

1313 S Harbor Blvd,
Anaheim, CA 92802

I'm on the second floor...here....

http://www.visitingdc.com/images/disneyland-address.jpg

Rent's expensive as hell, but Sleeping Beauty's kind of a hottie.

:D:D:D

labor_days

12-16-2007, 07:21 AM

I going to start walking now.

Got any messages for Ron you want me to pass along on the way?

humphrey-lee

12-16-2007, 08:39 AM

No way. Yu is the best thing about New Avengers. If he gets a bit wonky at times, it's only because the guy is putting the book out like a madman. Great energy and all those neat changes in perspective.

You dudes are nutso thinking Yu is problem with the book.

And Dave, I am terribly cross with you. Address please! ;-)

His stuff needs inked. There's a huge difference between Silent Dragon and UHvsW Yu and New Avengers Yu, and it's the lack of a dedicated tracer... er, I mean inker.

six-gun

12-16-2007, 12:03 PM

It's supposed to show that those guys are just working stiffs like everyone else - they talk about mundane stuff at the office too. It's one of the revolutionary things Lucas did in the first Star Wars movie - having the storm troopers just chatting about nothing while they were on guard duty.

yeah, that might have been a bad example but it felt somewhat out of place.

take the pony thing between Spidey and Hawkeye, that wasn't funny and took away from everything else

I mean I enjoyed the book don't get me wrong and I liked where it's headed but I feel that there were some serious issues that continued from last month.

neb

12-16-2007, 04:14 PM

No way. Yu is the best thing about New Avengers. If he gets a bit wonky at times, it's only because the guy is putting the book out like a madman. Great energy and all those neat changes in perspective.

I hear what you're saying Labor, but this guy just doesn't do it for me. There are times where I think, "Man, this guy can draw." But then he draws something that just makes me grimace, and the last few issues I've been grimacing a lot. In this issue, for example, I loved the shot of Cage slamming The Wrecker, but then the rest of the fight is a mitigated mess.

His art is getting in the way of the delivery of visual aspect of the story, and in comics, that just frosts my mug. I can see why people dig him though, but if he draws like this for Secret Invasion, I am not buying that book, regardless of the impact on the Marvel U.

And who knows, maybe he is one of those guys that needs just the right kind of colorist or inker, and if that's the case, I hope Marvel can find someone and quick.

jgg0610

12-17-2007, 12:06 AM

No way. Yu is the best thing about New Avengers. If he gets a bit wonky at times, it's only because the guy is putting the book out like a madman. Great energy and all those neat changes in perspective.

You dudes are nutso thinking Yu is problem with the book.

And Dave, I am terribly cross with you. Address please! ;-)
If you can't discern what's going on in the art to the point where it detracts from the story, then that's a problem for me. This has been my issue with Yu's art from the very beginning. It's too ambiguous. It's not as bad as Ramos but give him a few years.

jgg0610

12-17-2007, 12:09 AM

Potter's Field #3 - Am I the only one who picked this up? This is Mark Waid's creator-owned series from Boom! Studios...I love the concept. And I think it's some of Waid's better writing to be honest. That said, #3 is the final issue and it felt very rushed. Not sure why this wasn't a four issue mini-series. It feels like that's what it was set up for. Anyway, the book is an interesting concept, and Waid's script is tight and clever, but the story was missing something. It wrapped up too quickly and ambiguously. It's like the axe came down too quickly on the final act. I would read more stories with this character, though.

You aren't the only reading it. I kinda came away from it with the same feeling you did. It's almost like he laid out a four issue series and then had to finish it in three. However, I had a chance to talk to him at a convention this past season and it was always intended as a three. Weird. I would definitely read more stuff set in this world. He didn't mention if there was anymore planned for this world or not.

six-gun

12-17-2007, 01:00 AM

I just finished all my books (yeah, I know it took a while but exams took precedent) and GL is my POW by far. Ivan Reis is a mad man for all of the splash pages he did and the story gave me chills.

I also liked Jon Stewart's reasoning behind the authorization of deadly force, it makes sense and as seen by the love the Lanterns were getting at the end of the book fear wasn't being instilled, I really don't see any way that Sinestro could be seen as winning this war.

Not sure how the antimoniter Corps fits into the seven shown

racemccloud

12-17-2007, 02:21 AM

OK, I've only read a couple so far, but I thought I'd weigh in:
If you're going to kill the character that is the most obvious to kill, then you can't make it completely random and tacked onto the end as a "shocking cliffhanger." I don't mind them killing Connor, if they make it an intrinsic part of the story.

This, of course, is assuming that Conner is actually dead. Which, of course, he probably isn't. Unless he is. But it's comics, so...

racemccloud

12-17-2007, 02:51 AM

I thought you would be destroyed if you stopped reading Countdown? You know, by Conor and Ron.

Well good for you.

Every couple of weeks it seems people complain about how they're continuing to by countdown, and I smile to myself cause I dropped it so long ago.

(and every couple of weeks Conor tells me it's been good lately ;))

I dropped Countdown after the first week. Does this mean I win? Of course, I hate the multiverse, if I haven't mentioned that lately...

racemccloud

12-17-2007, 03:11 AM

Seriously, Bendis writes very trite comic books. I'm sorry if you like New Avengers and see why one might think this is worthwhile. But, no. That is not good comics.

Trite? I'm sorry, are we talking about the same Bendis? Perhaps you're talking about the lesser known Stanley Humperdink Bendis, because you can't possibly be talking about Brian Michael Bendis. Because Brian Michael Bendis actually writes very good comic book stories, that aren't hackneyed or repetitive at all.

Really? Trite?

And New Avengers is not "good comics"? Really? Perhaps it's not a good horror Zombie comic, or a good lesbian romance comic, or a good Native Americans living on a reservation comic, or a good fairy-tales-characters-living-among-us comic, but it is a pretty damn good superhero comic, one of the best of that genre being published today.

To say it isn't your cup of tea isn't one thing, that it isn't your bag, your flavor, that's one thing, that's fine. There are plenty of well made movies and comics and novels that I don't like, but that I know are quality work. And New Avengers, whatever your opinion of it may be, certainly is "good comics".

(I'll take this opportunity to admit that I am a huge Bendis fan, but that's primarily because he writes good comics.)

paper

12-17-2007, 03:17 AM

Not saying I agree or disagree, but each statement made on the boards has an implied "in my humble opinion" attached to it.

Historically, New Avengers is a great book. Lately I think it's a mixed bag. I don't think it's entirely based on the art...

racemccloud

12-17-2007, 03:26 AM

Yes, but you are overlooking the fact Cage is saying some varation on "street talk" all the time.

Cage is either an idoit or sterotype. Pick one Bendis.

He's failing at it. House Of M, Secret War, Illuminati, Mighty and New Avengers.

I like decompression. This is not decompression. This is boring.

It's quite hard for me to take anyone seriously trying to tell me that for the past 6+ months, NA has been anything less than middling-to-awful.

Now you are being foolish.

A) Woman was in the shower.
B) Dude approached her from behind.
C) The art clearly suggested sexual penetration and pleasure
D) A knife is at her throat
E) She turns around nonchalantly, giving her assailant and comic readers, the full view (or as best Marvel can do without showing nips)
F) Oh and another woman happens to walk into the shower and say "Whoops, my bad!"

Nay, my friend. Nay.

Actually, Labor, I apologize for getting worked up at your opinon of Bendis. I should have realized before now, having been on the boards here for several months, that everything you say is wrong.

conorkilpatrick

12-17-2007, 03:39 AM

Actually, Labor, I apologize for getting worked up at your opinon of Bendis. I should have realized before now, having been on the boards here for several months, that everything you say is wrong.

Well, you're going to have to tone it way down now too. You might want to read all the way through a thread before coming in and throwing gasoline on a fire that was pretty much out.

conorkilpatrick

12-17-2007, 03:41 AM

Not saying I agree or disagree, but each statement made on the boards has an implied "in my humble opinion" attached to it.

I feel like that statement excuses impoliteness.

People need to be polite in expressing their opinions here.

If not...

paper

12-17-2007, 03:52 AM

itsbecca

12-17-2007, 03:57 AM

No, you're right. But as someone who's often had a dissenting opinion, I know I've used a lot of hyperbole. I myself am very opinionated, but when I go off on Loeb it's more or less a way to shake things up and inspire a lively discussion. If you're too polite, things get passed over. Not that it's about changing people's opinions, but I like it when we can get into a debate sometimes. Becca gets pissed at me, but I like to think that our little riffs strengthen or modify our opinions. No growth without challenge.

Yes we do. And I can't beleive I've missed you going off on Loeb because that may have been our biggest fight yet. What is wrong with you?!

I think what Conor's getting a little itchy at is probably that we'd had the big hullabaloo already and it was now calmed down and in the licking the wounds stage, then someone comes late in the game and rips out the stiches. I know it sucks when you miss a debate, but you just have to sort of keep your eye on the boards climate and be civil.

paper

12-17-2007, 04:02 AM

That's true.

I have a tendency to jump on any bit of fringe I can find just to jumpstart a discussion. Even if it's not something I'm all that passionate about. There are many things I get fired up about, especially getting fired up about something. Passionate for passion.

racemccloud

12-17-2007, 04:03 AM

ANYWAY... by the time I review these books, it'll almost be time to review next weeks books... 10 books this week. Some brief hits on them:

GREEN LANTERN #25 (SINESTRO CORPS WAR FINALE) - When the set-up for the future is more exciting than the current storyline, what does that say about a comic? Well, seeing as how this was a great, fun, weighty story and a terrific finale, I'd say this most mean the upcoming "All Corps War/Darkest Night" looks like it's going to be amazing. Loved "Sinestro Corps". Not as much as "Rebirth", but it gets a big thumbs up. Great finale. Great arc. Good times.

GREEN ARROW AND BLACK CANARY #3- I'm not enjoying the art here as much as most of us. It's reminding me of something that I didn't like in the past (but I can't remember what that was, although I like this art much better than I liked th... ALLRED! I don't like Mike Allred's art, and this reminds me of that, only I like Chang's better. That Allred comment is going to get me in trouble... always love Judd Winick, though. Did he ever kick Puck's ass?

X-FACTOR #26 (MESSIAH COMPLEX #7) - From the dialogue lately between Cyclops and Prof. X, it would appear that in order to regain use of his legs, Xavier had to give up his balls.

NIGHTWING #139 (THE RESSURECTION OF RA'S AL GHUL #6) - This crossover is almost over, and I barely noticed that it started. Utterly forgettable. (Still, Dick Grayson is the Bee's Knees.)

FANTASTIC FOUR #552 - Try and figure out this math:
Time Travel = Lame
Dr. Doom = Awesome
Time Travel + Dr. Doom = SUPER HAPPY AWESOME!
SUPER HAPPY AWESOME + Fantastic Four = SUPER HAPPY AWESOME FANTASTIC FOUR #552
(All right, maybe that's overstating it, but I was never very good at math. Hey, when the main characters appear the end of their own book as the big "look who's here to help" reveal, should that work? It does here! SUPER HAPPY AWESOME!)

ULTIMATE IRON MAN II #1 - Vol. 2 of this books is written with the Roman Numeral version of "2" (II) so you KNOW it has to be good. Roman Numerals never suck. This must be why Josh picked it.

WONDER GIRL #4 - I am the ONLY PERSON IN AMERICA reading this mini. It's totally worth it. You know why? Because on the last page, Robin, Arrowette and Empress all show up to help out. YOUNG JUSTICE, BABY! (Oh, yeah, and Supergirl and some Greek dude.)

NOVA #9 - I hate cosmic comics. I love this book. Logic has no place in the world of comic book fandom. (My earlier FF review aside.) The talking dog, the intergalactic Avengers, the space zombies (NOT the Marvel zombies), the worldmind, Nova himself... all are very good.

POTW: THE NEW AVENGERS #37 - Bendis is the man! Yu's art is awesome! Spidey and Hawkeye's banter was great! The security guards had great banter, too!... I almost forgot. The true gift of Brian Michael Bendis, the comic book artist, is to take traditional comic book stories, turn then on their head, and make them something so much more and unexpected, and when he does it, he makes it look so easy you end up thinking, "Well, why didn't I (or anyone else) think of that before?" Seriously, this, GREEN LANTERN or NOVA all could have been my POTW, but in light of recent events, I'm throwing my support to Bendis. (Not that he needs my help.)

A highly enjoyable week. Now excuse me, I'm going to go and read NA and GL again. Because they're awesome. Super happy awesome.

I should stop saying that. It's going to get trite.

kahunablair

12-17-2007, 04:10 AM

I actually reread GL/GL Corps/Ion books and I really can't get over how good this series was all the way through. Between this event and Annihilation, I feel like I'm betraying myself by falling for Space books.
It also amazes me that these little series that started as a side story, morphed into epic major, "fan-favorites" events.

That's true.

I have a tendency to jump on any bit of fringe I can find just to jumpstart a discussion. Even if it's not something I'm all that passionate about. There are many things I get fired up about, especially getting fired up about something. Passionate for passion.

Passion is over rated....;)

dave-accampo

12-17-2007, 04:12 AM

...it would appear that in order to regain use of his legs, Xavier had to give up his balls.

BWA-HA-HA -- that's awesome. :)

dave-accampo

12-17-2007, 04:14 AM

This, of course, is assuming that Conner is actually dead. Which, of course, he probably isn't. Unless he is. But it's comics, so...

Yes, I'm just going by appearance, based on this issue and the cover of the next.

It may not pan out that way, but I was giving my feeling from reading this particular issue.

dave-accampo

12-17-2007, 04:15 AM

You aren't the only reading it. I kinda came away from it with the same feeling you did. It's almost like he laid out a four issue series and then had to finish it in three. However, I had a chance to talk to him at a convention this past season and it was always intended as a three. Weird. I would definitely read more stuff set in this world. He didn't mention if there was anymore planned for this world or not.

Glad we felt the same way. I actually really like the concept, but the last chapter just feels too slight to me.

itsbecca

12-17-2007, 04:23 AM

Yes, I'm just going by appearance, based on this issue and the cover of the next.

It may not pan out that way, but I was giving my feeling from reading this particular issue.

Yeah the next cover kind of solidifies it in my opinion. Besides the fact that we've just had a death fakeout, so rehashing that plot device so soon would come off kind of hack.

conorkilpatrick

12-17-2007, 04:26 AM

I'm sorry, everybody. But between me, Connor Hawke and Connor Kent there were just too many of us.

I have been orchestrating this bloodbath for years.

dave-accampo

12-17-2007, 04:31 AM

...we've just had a death fakeout, so rehashing that plot device so soon would come off kind of hack.

Exactly!

It could be a great fakeout, but since I've kind of been expecting Connor to die since Ollie came back, I'd bet that this IS what it seems.

I also figured that -- despite all their protestations and attempts after Hal's return -- Kyle Rayner would eventually just be shuffled off to pasture as another regular Lantern, ala John and Guy. And that also looks like it has come to pass as well. That said, I'll give Johns a lot of credit here; most writers would just focus on Hal and the other lanterns would sort of just fade into obscurity or become cardboard cut-outs. Johns has done an impressive job of keeping all the human Lanterns pretty important in a book that still stars Hal. That's an impressive feat. I wish the same could have been done for Connor.

It's funny -- Kyle and Connor were NOT my first GL and GA...I was reading Hal and Ollie before them. But...I kinda came to love them as characters in the 90's...and I admit I feel a little protective about what happens to them. :D

dave-accampo

12-17-2007, 04:33 AM

I'm sorry, everybody. But between me, Connor Hawke and Connor Kent there were just too many of us.

I have been orchestrating this bloodbath for years.

So, is the Comic Book Urban Legend true...? You actually changed your name to Conor with one "n" to separate yourself from the other Connors?

I mean, that's just what I've heard whispered at cons...

racemccloud

12-17-2007, 04:35 AM

Yeah the next cover kind of solidifies it in my opinion. Besides the fact that we've just had a death fakeout, so rehashing that plot device so soon would come off kind of hack.

I completely trust that Winick will do something completley un-hacky.

itsbecca

12-17-2007, 04:38 AM

I completely trust that Winick will do something completley un-hacky.

Oh as do I. I've grown to trust him with this character.

racemccloud

12-17-2007, 04:38 AM

I'm sorry, everybody. But between me, Connor Hawke and Connor Kent there were just too many of us.

I have been orchestrating this bloodbath for years.

Wow, Conner McKnight is probably pretty nervous now.

You know, Conner McKnight? The Red Dino Ranger from "Power Rangers: Dino Thunder"? You know? Conner McKnight?

No?

Anyone?

hhhmmmm...

Me neither.

(I swear, I totally had to Wikipedia that one. I did not have that knowledge at hand. I swear. Really.)

labor_days

12-17-2007, 06:51 AM

Really? Trite?

Yup.

I think hackneyed "jokes" about ponies are not funny. In my opinion!

I think Spider-Man saying "nan-no-nenleerner" is not funny. In my opinion!

I think Luke Cage yelling "Girl!" all the time is not not funny. In my opinion!

I think a ninja fight drawn out over months is boring. In my opinion!

I think awkward dialogue about Skrulls every issue to remind readers 'THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT GUISE!!!' is not good. In my opinion!

I think implied sexual assault as fanboy fodder is not good. In my opinion!

And New Avengers is not "good comics"? Really? Perhaps it's not a good horror Zombie comic, or a good lesbian romance comic...

I think there is little that separates a well written superhero comic from a well written "lesbian romance comic". See above. In my opinion!

Walking cliches and laser beams notwithstanding, natch. In my opinion!

To say it isn't your cup of tea isn't one thing, that it isn't your bag, your flavor, that's one thing, that's fine.

I am suspect of this "not for me" spiel. If I do not enjoy something it is because it is not good. I like things that are awesome.

http://img29.picoodle.com/img/img29/5/12/17/f_Image1m_786eb73.jpg

Ya'know what is "not for me"? Things that are terrible.

In my opinion! Don't hate me guys! /copious emoticons

dave-accampo

12-17-2007, 07:10 AM

dave-accampo

12-17-2007, 07:24 AM

Yup.

I think hackneyed "jokes" about ponies are not funny. In my opinion!

I think Spider-Man saying "nan-no-nenleerner" is not funny. In my opinion!

I think Luke Cage yelling "Girl!" all the time is not not funny. In my opinion!

I think a ninja fight drawn out over months is boring. In my opinion!

I think awkward dialogue about Skrulls every issue to remind readers 'THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT GUISE!!!' is not good. In my opinion!

I think implied sexual assault as fanboy fodder is not good. In my opinion!

And since we're now debating civilly, I can't help but pick at this scab...

- Ponies and nano-whatever...is, I believe, funnier dialogue that half the people who have ever written Spider-man ever. And i don't think it's fair to use a couple snippets of dialogue to say something is trite. It hardly has anything to do with the overall story being told. It's just the persona Spidey takes on when he fights dudes. It's very much the surface of the story.

- I don't think Cage yelling girl was supposed to be funny...and I've already explained that how this is not indicative of a stereotype. It seems to me you're taking a lot of potshots at surface affectations rather than the actual story.

- I'd agree on ninja fights if that's all that was happening. But I didn't read it that way. Too often the fight is going on the background while we're discovering something else or looking at something through someone's perspective.

- Skrull dialogue - personally, I find it pretty realistic, since that's a big revelation they've had. It's been what, four issues, and the timespan is a couple of days at best...? I think it'd be weird if we didn't have skrull dialogue.

- Yeah, you already know what I think about the supposed "sexual assault." I think you interpreted it one way, and it's not what I got from it at all.

So, if NA ain't your bag, you totally shouldn't be buying it. But I don't see the triteness, and I've come away with a very different interpretation of the book. So me, I'll still be buying it for awhile. And I'm happy to do so.

But if you're spending $3/month on it and you feel that way about those scenes you mentioned? Damn, dude, you're wasting your money. ;)

humphrey-lee

12-17-2007, 08:02 AM

I'm sorry, everybody. But between me, Connor Hawke and Connor Kent there were just too many of us.

I have been orchestrating this bloodbath for years.

Are you also a 90's character that was designed as a cheap substitute but actually had potential when handled by writers who knew what they were doing until an EIC with absolutely no concept of direction or gauge of potential decided to let you be killed off in the name of cheap heat?

Just curious, there seems to be a theme developing...

humphrey-lee

12-17-2007, 08:05 AM

No, you're right. But as someone who's often had a dissenting opinion, I know I've used a lot of hyperbole. I myself am very opinionated, but when I go off on Loeb it's more or less a way to shake things up and inspire a lively discussion. If you're too polite, things get passed over. Not that it's about changing people's opinions, but I like it when we can get into a debate sometimes. Becca gets pissed at me, but I like to think that our little riffs strengthen or modify our opinions. No growth without challenge.

That said, we certainly shouldn't be dismissive of someone else's opinions. I know I've been guilty of that, and I'm not proud of those instances.

Overuse of hyperbole makes me want to hurt people almost as much as the use of the word overrated. The "shaking things up" part I completely agree with and is how I work as an internet entity. It's apparently how you get to be known as an @$$hole (though I still think that moniker is kinda ghey).

six-gun

12-17-2007, 12:22 PM

Well, you're going to have to tone it way down now too. You might want to read all the way through a thread before coming in and throwing gasoline on a fire that was pretty much out.

I once poured gasoline on a fire, the flame came back up the stream and caught the can on fire. I nonchalantly blew it out. Fortunately (or unfortunately) we have this on video and when I watched it I nearly passed out "I did that?!?!?!"

jaflanagan

12-17-2007, 03:06 PM

OK, so I'm sure we all realize that folks should be treading lightly on this one.

This is the way it works. It's OK to say, I don't like a comic or I think this comic is crap, and it's OK to say why. It's not OK to say, "you are stupid for liking this comic," or really anything along the lines of "you are stupid." The general rules of conduct are to be respectful of one another. If that means toning down your sarcasm, I'm sorry to put the kibosh on your artistic freedom, but it's a group of people, and it's really easy for things to get un-civil. Have academic arguments, not personal arguments.

Just for the record, this:

I should stop saying that. It's going to get trite.

is not OK. Please don't try to incite people.

I think there's great and valuable debate going on here, and I really don't want to have to shut the thread down. I think we're past the point where we need to, but I'm just saying this so we're clear.

For the record, this, to me, was never about the fact that Labor thinks Bendis is bad. He's perfectly entitled to that, and it's a completely valid opinion. And anyone else is perfectly entitled to disagree with him and debate it.

Play ball!

jimski

12-17-2007, 03:36 PM

Speaking of Bendis, I really wish I could go to this (http://www.popcultureshock.com/cbclub/):

December 18: ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY SHOW! Brian Michael Bendis (New Avengers, Ultimate Spider-Man); Ed Brubaker (Captain America, X-Men, Criminal); Matt Fraction (Iron Fist, Casanova); Bill Hader (Saturday Night Live, Superbad); and Musical Guest Kimmy Gatewood! Somebody go for me. Heckle Bendis if you need to.

cam-

12-17-2007, 04:50 PM

Are you also a 90's character that was designed as a cheap substitute but actually had potential when handled by writers who knew what they were doing until an EIC with absolutely no concept of direction or gauge of potential decided to let you be killed off in the name of cheap heat?

Just curious, there seems to be a theme developing...

That's pretty harsh on the EIC who basically HAD to kill said character due to legal issues.

Did he not?

humphrey-lee

12-17-2007, 07:12 PM

That's pretty harsh on the EIC who basically HAD to kill said character due to legal issues.

Did he not?

Really? Because they seem to have found a way to keep their Limb Dismembering Villain of the Event around just fine by upgrading him into Manhood. Plus, Bart Allen would have words about this "cheap heat" theory of mine too.

conorkilpatrick

12-17-2007, 07:22 PM

Really? Because they seem to have found a way to keep their Limb Dismembering Villain of the Event around just fine by upgrading him into Manhood. Plus, Bart Allen would have words about this "cheap heat" theory of mine too.

I, for one, am okay with them trimming the fat.

humphrey-lee

12-17-2007, 07:37 PM

I, for one, am okay with them trimming the fat.

Eh, I really have no problems with Bart's death, I didn't like the character much outside of John's use of him in TT, but we all seem to agree that Superboy's death was unnecessary, because the character had just came into a strong and almost resonating presence in not just TT but the DCU as well. Connor Hawke I can go either way on, simply because the Arrow family is rather large, but I really have no problem with their being two "Legacy" names being around at the same time, as long as there's an obvious protege in the mix. Hawke's problem is that he was probably better than Ollie and became a problem because as a "contributor" when the shit goes down, the only thing Ollie was better for was the experience since Connor out abilitied him in almost every way. But you can't really blame him for that, Chuck Dixon wrote the hell out of that character to make him pertinent.

Ah well, I was more taking a jab at Didio anyways because under his "regime" or whatever you want to call it, I've gone from reading about 20 DCU books five years ago to being at just half that today, and that's only if you count The Spirit to the total since it doesn't have an imprint label...

Seriously, **** you Didio...:D

cam-

12-17-2007, 07:41 PM

Ah well, I was more taking a jab at Didio anyways because under his "regime" or whatever you want to call it, I've gone from reading about 20 DCU books five years ago to being at just half that today, and that's only if you count The Spirit to the total since it doesn't have an imprint label...

Seriously, **** you Didio...:D

THat's funny under his regime my DCU books have doubled, if not tripled. Less and less Marvel however. (though more and more marvel trades.)

Speaking of which, I came across the first two MS. Marvel Hardcovers for 8.99 the other day. Brian Reed has actually whipped together some good comics there, does anyone read that book? Cause I think I'm gonna start picking it up.

conorkilpatrick

12-17-2007, 07:51 PM

Eh, I really have no problems with Bart's death, I didn't like the character much outside of John's use of him in TT, but we all seem to agree that Superboy's death was unnecessary, because the character had just came into a strong and almost resonating presence in not just TT but the DCU as well. Connor Hawke I can go either way on, simply because the Arrow family is rather large, but I really have no problem with their being two "Legacy" names being around at the same time, as long as there's an obvious protege in the mix. Hawke's problem is that he was probably better than Ollie and became a problem because as a "contributor" when the shit goes down, the only thing Ollie was better for was the experience since Connor out abilitied him in almost every way. But you can't really blame him for that, Chuck Dixon wrote the hell out of that character to make him pertinent.

Connor Hawke was pretty useless. They hadn't done anything with him in years. He didn't really have a place in the DCU anymore. Between him and Roy it was like having two Nightwings around. Another reason why Jason Todd is useless.

Superboy? He served more of a purpose than Connor Hawke, but again that one was out of Dido's hands. But you didn't see me crying any tears over him, I never really cared much for Superboy.

racemccloud

12-17-2007, 07:55 PM

Eh, I really have no problems with Bart's death, I didn't like the character much outside of John's use of him in TT, but we all seem to agree that Superboy's death was unnecessary, because the character had just came into a strong and almost resonating presence in not just TT but the DCU as well. Connor Hawke I can go either way on, simply because the Arrow family is rather large, but I really have no problem with their being two "Legacy" names being around at the same time, as long as there's an obvious protege in the mix. Hawke's problem is that he was probably better than Ollie and became a problem because as a "contributor" when the shit goes down, the only thing Ollie was better for was the experience since Connor out abilitied him in almost every way. But you can't really blame him for that, Chuck Dixon wrote the hell out of that character to make him pertinent.

Ah well, I was more taking a jab at Didio anyways because under his "regime" or whatever you want to call it, I've gone from reading about 20 DCU books five years ago to being at just half that today, and that's only if you count The Spirit to the total since it doesn't have an imprint label...

Seriously, **** you Didio...:D

Didn't Superboy die for legal reasons, anyway? The whole copyright/ownership debate? If that lawsuit didn't exist, do you think they would have killed Superboy?