The Question: Zen and Violence - January's Trade of the Month

[paper]

Alright, as discussed in the Brainstorming Thread (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11750), our trade of the month for January 2008 is The Question: Zen and Violence (http://www.amazon.com/Question-Vol-Zen-Violence/dp/1401215793/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199448901&sr=8-1), volume one of the O'Neil run on the series.

Written by Dennis O'Neil. Pencils by Denys Cowan, inks by Rick Maygar, colors by Tatjana Wood, with Saldino and DeGuzman on lettering. Covers by Bill Sienkiewicz and Denys Cowan.

http://www.comichole.com/img/items/119145194713774100.jpg

[paper]

Let's get the discussion rolling. Thumbs up? Thumbs down? What prior history did you have with the character of Vic Sage, and were there any expectations that colored your experience with this book? Any surprises?

[mikegraham6]

i haven't read it yet, it's next to my bed and will definitely get read ASAP! it looks interesting enough and i'll post my thoughts when i've finished it

[dave-accampo]

Oh sweet! I was just posting about this in another thread.

Full disclosure: I read this in issues when it came out, and it was totally influential on me. I bought the trade simply because I was thrilled it was collected. So my perspective comes as much from my history with the book as anything else.

Thoughts:

- It's a nice trade, but you can really see how production values on comics have changed since the late eighties.

- My favorite thing on this series was always the covers, drawn by Cowan and inked by Sienkiewicz (probably misspelled that). Oh, how I wish they had done interiors together. Trivia: I followed them over to Epic's Shadowline Saga imprint because they DID do pencils and inks on a book called Doctor Zero. Sadly, it was nowhere near as good as The Question.

- I loved this series as a whole because it's one of the few corporate super-hero books that really had the singular vision of ONE writer. Thus, the entire series is one man's journey. It's evidenced in this trade, and I think that journey holds up. I love the way Denny essentially "kills" Vic Sage in the first issue, in order to set us up for the journey to come. I love the little pearls of zen wisdom that come out in this series.

- There's definitely stuff that seems a bit awkward now. Some of the criminal element is a bit cardboard, and the dialogue feels a bit dated in places. It's also too bad that some of the elements don't play as well in trade form. For example, one of my favorite tales (don't remember the name, but the one that starts and ends with Maude on the bench) actually begins the story arc of Izzy O'Toole, a corrupt police officer who decides to clean up. He plays a big supporting role as the series progresses, but I'm not sure it plays well in this particular story.

- like I said, it's hard for me to really review this book, but I think it's a good start to a man's search for identity. And this is just the beginning. I hope it comes off that way to new readers. I really like Vic Sage because he's conflicted, contradictory, and often ignorant of his own personal journey. Which makes him, IMO, a fascinating character to follow.

[esophagus]

I loved this series as a whole because it's one of the few corporate super-hero books that really had the singular vision of ONE writer. Thus, the entire series is one man's journey. It's evidenced in this trade, and I think that journey holds up. I love the way Denny essentially "kills" Vic Sage in the first issue, in order to set us up for the journey to come. I love the little pearls of zen wisdom that come out in this series.I can't speak much for the vision of the entire series, as this has just got started, but it definitely holds something most bigger books don't. His back story is already much more elaborate than the simple "alien sent to earth" or "my parents are dead" (you know who I'm talking about ;)) stories that we generally get. Almost killing the main character and then bringing him back with no backstory brings us a really unique character that I can tell I'll love. It also added the greatstory device of us, the readers, figuring everything out at the same time Sage does.
There's definitely stuff that seems a bit awkward now. Some of the criminal element is a bit cardboard, and the dialogue feels a bit dated in places.Yeah, I definitely noticed that too. In particular when they were going to blow up the bus and they had the red sticks of dynamite. Plausible, I guess, just felt like a trick that hasn't been used in a well. Over all though, I was expecting a lot of 80's cheese, and this was pretty low on it. It was always there, but it was easy enough to sift through and ignore for the bigger picture.

[neb]

So the last couple of weeks, I've gone to my shop to try and buy this sucker, and it's always freaking sold out! Argh! I'm going to partcipate in this, I promise!

[mastap]

Best use of "danny boy" in comics to date

[darkknightjrk]

I first encountered the character in Dark Knight Strikes Again (not Miller's best work, but he was still a badass in it) but really got to notice him in Justice League Unlimited, a show that I still make sweet love to and wish was still on. I've been wanting to get my hands on his series but they're almost next to impossible to find, so I was elated to find out they were releasing his series on TPB.

I do agree that some of it feels dated and some of the characters, espicially the villians, feel a bit cardboard-ish, but it's still a pretty good story. Can't wait until April when the next one comes out.

[s-sanchez]

I definitely heard of the character before and I might have even read books with him in it but my first real exposure has to be in 52.

Honestly, I've heard so much hype for this series I would have not been surprised if it didnt live up to the hype but I think that this has and then some. Personally, I can't wait for the second volume.

I thought the art was fantastic and to be perfectly honest, I dont feel that any of the dialogue is dated or that the criminals seem cardboard-I especially dug the insane preacher, or father, or whatever he was.

[esophagus]

I definitely heard of the character before and I might have even read books with him in it but my first real exposure has to be in 52.I'd had plenty of bits and pieces of exposure, but that's all you can really find with his definitive series not being in print, until now. I think my favorite incarnation of him, until this book, was JLU. Any of you who think you enjoy the character, and haven't watched the series, should definitely hunt that down.I thought the art was fantastic and to be perfectly honest, I dont feel that any of the dialogue is dated or that the criminals seem cardboard-I especially dug the insane preacher, or father, or whatever he was.Yeah, for the time frame this came from they actually did a really good job of avoiding that. By saying "villains" were cardboard, it sounds like I mean the bigger guys, mostly I'm talking about the lower level thugs, which happens a lot in the books of today as well.

[itsbecca]

I thought the art was fantastic and to be perfectly honest, I dont feel that any of the dialogue is dated or that the criminals seem cardboard-I especially dug the insane preacher, or father, or whatever he was.

I enjoyed that villain a lot. I'm always very partial to villians who possess no mystical, alien or superhuman qualities. I love how it displays that the corruption that motivates a person to trudge down such horrific paths is not supernatural, it is purely human.

Of course I can also note with this series, that I'm partial to hero's like The Question for the same reason. Science gadgets aside his motivation and dedication are so clearly based in his own goodness and hard work. I kind of feel like I'm skirting on Batman territory. There are obvious parralells, but I don't feel they step on each others toes to much, because of their different motives, back story and personality. Would make for an interesting conversation though.

[esophagus]

I kind of feel like I'm skirting on Batman territory. There are obvious parralells, but I don't feel they step on each others toes to much, because of their different motives, back story and personality. Would make for an interesting conversation though.The part of the book with Batman in it had a lot of potential, and was actually really good, it just felt like it might have been more of a selling point than a plot point. But yeah, I would love to see more of him in the book, if done a little better.

[itsbecca]

The part of the book with Batman in it had a lot of potential, and was actually really good, it just felt like it might have been more of a selling point than a plot point. But yeah, I would love to see more of him in the book, if done a little better.

That's not what I meant at all. I kind of glossed over it like a celebrity cameo.

[esophagus]

That's not what I meant at all. I kind of glossed over it like a celebrity cameo.I know. I'm just saying, you're right, it would be a good conversation. That one showed extreme potential, aside from the fact that it was a quick in and out marketing ploy.

[mikegraham6]

I'd had plenty of bits and pieces of exposure, but that's all you can really find with his definitive series not being in print, until now. I think my favorite incarnation of him, until this book, was JLU. Any of you who think you enjoy the character, and haven't watched the series, should definitely hunt that down.Yeah, for the time frame this came from they actually did a really good job of avoiding that. By saying "villains" were cardboard, it sounds like I mean the bigger guys, mostly I'm talking about the lower level thugs, which happens a lot in the books of today as well.

Before 52, I had no idea who this character was besides the fact that he was the influence for Rorschach. From what i've read, i actually enjoyed him the most in JLU. I thought the interpretation in hat series really help set him apart as his own entity rather than the poor-man's Batman.
But i liked this collection. It was interesting and well written for the time period for which it was released. I liked having a psychopahtic reverend as the antogonist although i felt they could have fleshed him out a bit more.
I also thought it was ballsy to for O'Neil to Kill of the Question in the first issue, even though it was basically laid out in the first page, it was still a nice "OH SHIT!" moment.
My biggest complaint is the Zen/Spiritualism aspect. From reading 52, it seemed to me that this was a HUGE part of the character, but from reading these issues, they only touch on it briefly once per issue. Even his rehabilitation was over way too quickly. I would have loved for the book to have delved deeper into Zen beliefs.
Other than that, i did really like the idea of The Question tackling systemic corruption, even if it only did end up taking the form of a diluded reverend. After watching a lot of The Wire it was nice to see a superhero take down corruption rather than street level criminals.

Im interested enough to look into Vol. 2 when it comes out but it did manage to disappoint me a bit.
B

[dave-accampo]

That's not what I meant at all. I kind of glossed over it like a celebrity cameo.

That's exactly what it was, really. It was a very common practice to put either Superman or Batman into the first couple issues of a book to draw reader interest.

That said, I have no idea if/how this would be collected, but Denny O'Neill wrote a 3-part annual cross-over that ran between Batman, Green Arrow, and the Question. A natural fit, seeing as he's written all of them. It's a story about Shiva and The Sensei, and I don't know if it's been collected, but I'd highly recommend it if you guys can track it down. It's not exactly a cross-over, but it one larger story that moves from character to character. I think they overlap a little, but not much.

[dave-accampo]

My biggest complaint is the Zen/Spiritualism aspect. From reading 52, it seemed to me that this was a HUGE part of the character, but from reading these issues, they only touch on it briefly once per issue. Even his rehabilitation was over way too quickly. I would have loved for the book to have delved deeper into Zen beliefs.

Mike, as someone who has read the entire run, I can confirm that the zen aspects and the quest for inner peace and identity run through the whole series. The rehabilitation would probably have taken 3 issues in a modern comic, but here it was really used to "reset" The Question. However, that's really all part of the larger plan. What we see as the series progresses is that he loses a lot of that serenity that he seems to possess when he returns, and so it's a constant struggle for him. So the zen stuff pops up quite a bit, over and over.

[mikegraham6]

That's exactly what it was, really. It was a very common practice to put either Superman or Batman into the first couple issues of a book to draw reader interest.

That said, I have no idea if/how this would be collected, but Denny O'Neill wrote a 3-part annual cross-over that ran between Batman, Green Arrow, and the Question. A natural fit, seeing as he's written all of them. It's a story about Shiva and The Sensei, and I don't know if it's been collected, but I'd highly recommend it if you guys can track it down. It's not exactly a cross-over, but it one larger story that moves from character to character. I think they overlap a little, but not much.
just the fact that he put all those characters together in one story sounds really interesting. Those are 3 really strong personalities

[mikegraham6]

Mike, as someone who has read the entire run, I can confirm that the zen aspects and the quest for inner peace and identity run through the whole series. The rehabilitation would probably have taken 3 issues in a modern comic, but here it was really used to "reset" The Question. However, that's really all part of the larger plan. What we see as the series progresses is that he loses a lot of that serenity that he seems to possess when he returns, and so it's a constant struggle for him. So the zen stuff pops up quite a bit, over and over.

ya, i think this was more my modern sensibilities affecting my enjoyment of an older book, but really all the zen i found in this trade consisted mainly of meditation. I wish they would have delved a bit more, but if you say they touch on it more, then i'll definitely look into the next volume.

[dave-accampo]

just the fact that he put all those characters together in one story sounds really interesting. Those are 3 really strong personalities

yeah, and there's a bit of zen wisdom in that story, too, as the throughline is about Lady Shiva and The Old Sensei.

[dave-accampo]

ya, i think this was more my modern sensibilities affecting my enjoyment of an older book, but really all the zen i found in this trade consisted mainly of meditation. I wish they would have delved a bit more, but if you say they touch on it more, then i'll definitely look into the next volume.

Yeah, you're right. Mostly what you see in volume 1 are the just the surface attributes (meditation, etc.). But as O'Neill moved the story along, you'll see that it's more about zen as a lifestyle, and Vic Sage struggling with it. It's not a lot of overt stuff, but it's just sort of there. Sage is looking for inner peace, essentially, but it's tougher to get there than one thinks. So it's sort of broadly evoked in many ways throughout the series. I can't say that it's a zen handbook or anything, but I think it's there as a sort of guiding force, sometimes almost invisible.

If this book had been written today, it would probably feel like much more of a complete "chapter" by the end of issue 6 (as you noted).

[mikegraham6]

any idea when he heads to Nanda Parbat? or does he? from reading 52, i thought that it was tied into his origin somehow

[dave-accampo]

any idea when he heads to Nanda Parbat? or does he? from reading 52, i thought that it was tied into his origin somehow

I could be wrong, but I don't believe he ever does in O'Neill's series.

I think the idea is that he goes to Nanda Parbat sometime AFTER the series is over.

Remind me: was Richard Dragon in Nanda Parbat? I think maybe that's the idea...that much of his training is owed to Richard Dragon, and maybe both of them ended up in Nanda Parbat at some point. Doesn't happen in this series, though, as far as I can recall.

[esophagus]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe he ever does in O'Neill's series.

I think the idea is that he goes to Nanda Parbat sometime AFTER the series is over.

Remind me: was Richard Dragon in Nanda Parbat? I think maybe that's the idea...that much of his training is owed to Richard Dragon, and maybe both of them ended up in Nanda Parbat at some point. Doesn't happen in this series, though, as far as I can recall.Yup, a bit of google research tells me he doesn't go in the series. We only hear of it in 52.

[mikegraham6]

interesting to know

Random question: if Sage isn't associated with Parbat, which character is? when i was reading 52, i just figured it was similar to Iron Fist's K'un L'un

[esophagus]

interesting to know

Random question: if Sage isn't associated with Parbat, which character is? when i was reading 52, i just figured it was similar to Iron Fist's K'un L'unFrom Wikipedia:Patterned after the fictional Shangri-La, Nanda Parbat is a hidden city nestled high in the mountains of Tibet; it is said to be a place of healing and enlightenment watched over by the goddess-like figure Rama Kushna and her monks. Like Shangri-La, time moves differently in Nanda Parbat. Its visitors are often able to retain their youth many decades after their arrival, and yet can leave Nanda Parbat to find that less time has passed in the outside world.

Rama Kushna is most famous as the entity responsible for turning aerialist Boston Brand into the ghostly Deadman. As her spiritual agent, Brand wanders the Earth possessing the bodies of the living and doing good works, in the hopes of finding eventual access to paradise. Deadman has returned to Nanda Parbat on occasion to defend it against attackers such as The Sensei of the League of Assassins, an aged warrior at one time possessed by Jonah, another of Rama's former agents.


[edit] Notable appearances
Rama Kushna and Nanda Parbat have also played a role in the lives of other DC Comics characters:

- Nanda Parbat was home to Judomaster prior to his joining the team known as the L.A.W. It is responsible for him remaining as youthful as he was in the 1940s.
- The Crimson Avenger spent time in Nanda Parbat, seeking meaning in the senseless acts of violence he witnessed in World War I. During his convalescence, he received a vision of the future and witnessed the death of Superman (as depicted in Golden Age Secret Files #1).
- In 52, Nanda Parbat is where The Question takes Renee Montoya to be trained by martial arts master Richard Dragon. It is there Question passes on due to complications from lung cancer.
- Later in 52, Ralph Dibny journeys to Nanda Parbat, seeking an audience with Rama Kushna and a way to resurrect his late wife, Sue. A member of the Great Ten, the Accomplished Perfect Physician, is also shown seeking inner peace in the hidden city.
- In the Grant Morrison written Batman #663, Batman uses a mantra or prayer over a dead man he learned in Nanda Parbat. Also in the same issue he enters the state of Nirvikalpa Samadhi using a technique learned in Nanda Parbat to find the hidden or occult pattern to the Joker's recent murders.

[mikegraham6]

ah! so it's basically a deadman, shangri-la thing, cheers!

[dave-accampo]

yeah, that was going to be my next post, by Eso's fast with the wiki.

Nanda Parbat was part of Deadman's origin. However, since then other writers have used it. So, yeah, now it's like the DCU Shangri-la...

[neb]

So I finally found this at a comic shop near the house where I grew up! Yeah! Now, I just need to find time to read it, so I can unleash my thoughts.

By the way, how awesome is the cover to this book?

[esophagus]

By the way, how awesome is the cover to this book?Got to love Bill Sienkiewicz. Hope he does the covers for the rest of them.

[dave-accampo]

Got to love Bill Sienkiewicz. Hope he does the covers for the rest of them.

The cover of the first trade is actually the cover of the first issue, so it wasn't a new piece.

However, what's cool is that the STYLE of the first issue cover (and trade cover) was also employed on the first issue of the Shadow series that began at roughly the same time (this was the late 80's series written by Andy Helfer with art by Sienkiewicz, IIRC).

[dave-accampo]

The Shadow cover art:

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/3379/400/3379_4_01.jpg

[esophagus]

The cover of the first trade is actually the cover of the first issue, so it wasn't a new piece.

However, what's cool is that the STYLE of the first issue cover (and trade cover) was also employed on the first issue of the Shadow series that began at roughly the same time (this was the late 80's series written by Andy Helfer with art by Sienkiewicz, IIRC).In that case, I hope they release a collection of the covers. I haaate those, but I think this is one of few books I would buy it for.

[dave-accampo]

I think I said this somewhere, but most of the covers were Cowan with inks by Sienkiewicz...and they ARE great, IMHO. But they're not painted like the first cover was.

[neb]

So, I finally cracked this open, and read the first issue. Holy shit is this book amazing. I'm enthralled and only wish I had more time to read more of it.

...Wait, what hell am I doing on here when I could be reading?!?

[esophagus]

...Wait, what hell am I doing on here when I could be reading?!?Pfft, you tell me! Get reading!

[drwally]

OK wait:

Shangri-La, Zen, the Question that I want to know more about that always eludes me, pulp style hero in a suit and a hat, and mask, fighting corruption like the old pulp heroes did... crime and punishment and Zen, as in the difficulty or reconciling the Buddha Path while being caught up in the transitory struggles of the illusory world, written by O'Neil, what my father would call, "a retired hippie" of sorts, though never completely one side or the other... hmmm, is this book for me?

The Question on The Buddha Path? That's exactly right, I agree completely, that is what the path is all about. If anybody has questions about the Buddhistic aspect (whether Zen or Tibetan Mysticism), I think, IMHO, the relevant comparison is the TV show Life. That show really got it right, as far right as a middle path that permits no dogma will allow. And Life got it right by asking questions, not by making dogmatic statements, that is the path. The Last Samurai? They are so off the path they need a roadmap to lead them from their nowhere. But whatever, that is not important, unless it addresses more deeply - Zen and Violence．

Anybody think there's something in this book for me? I am locked by the chains of shipping and distance, and availability - transitory evils that take me away from the now. But I think my path will lead to the Question, in time. This character has always called to me. Gently, but consistently, not in a spectacular way - more in a quiet, substantial manner. Been very busy with other stuff lately, but Wonderful to see this thread.

Every time I see Eso's newest Avatar, I feel excited. Wonderful stuff. Where are you getting those, Eso? Being guilty of gluttony, I want to see a full display of all your wonderful avatars.

[dave-accampo]

OK wait:

Shangri-La, Zen, the Question that I want to know more about that always eludes me, pulp style hero in a suit and a hat, and mask, fighting corruption like the old pulp heroes did... crime and punishment and Zen, as in the difficulty or reconciling the Buddha Path while being caught up in the transitory struggles of the illusory world, written by O'Neil, what my father would call, "a retired hippie" of sorts, though never completely one side or the other... hmmm, is this book for me?

Oh, I'd say there's definitely something for you here, Wally. However, Shangri-La/Nanda Parbat isn't in THIS particular series. It's not really old-school pulp like, say, Lobster Johnson. But you'll appreciate the pulp aspects and how they're blended with eastern philosophy.

I think it's safe to say that you'd dig this quite a bit.

[meccaed]

Having just finished 52 Vol. 2 i'm psyched to pick this up.

[neb]

So, I just finished reading this book, and hot damn was it awesome. The Question was a character that I was only vaguely familiar with through the Justice League cartoons, and this series really showed just how great of a character he is. While not as paranoid as his cartoon counterpart, Vic Sage is just as cool, and I really like the angle that he is a newsreporter. It's like he's a more adult version of Peter Parker with the angles that he can get from his job. Also, the Question character is just fun to read.

Of course, Denny O'Neal is just knocking one out of the park with this book. Many of the storylines have that same political vibe that his famous Green Arrow/Green Lantern run had, but they are darker and more violent. I loved the contrasts in this book that he used between the Question's zen like training and the abhorrent violence that surrounds him. And Cowan's pencils really compliment the storytelling.

Overall, I was really glad I got a chance to read this, and part of me is pissed for missing it so long ago. Ah well, that's what TPB's are for, and I can't wait for the second volume to hit the shelves.