The 2008 MLB Thread

[RaceMcCloud]

Mets Get Johan!

[mattk]

I was glad to see that. It means the Indians won't have to face him until the World Series - although we are pretty much the only team that owns him.

[Jon_Samuelson]

You all can go straight to hell. I swear to God I haven't been this depressed about baseball since... well shit forever. This trade was absolutely disgusting. The Twins got hosed on every conceivable level. Horrible, horrible trade. They received nothing worth getting. If this was the best offer still on the table they should have kept him and taken the draft picks at the end of the year. If I were still in Minnesota I'd be pouring gasoline on the Metrodome right now. I'm gonna go hang myself...

[Jon_Samuelson]

In case you couldn't tell my favorite team just traded my favorite player (who happens to be the best pitcher in the game) for a water cooler and a bucket of balls. I'm a little annoyed.

[jakov42]

One thing to keep in mind is that there is one massive contract in the way of finalizing this (plus a physical). Santana has a no trade clause and wants a contract to wave it. I have heard a rumor of $25 million a year for at least six years.

I would think that the Mets already have this in mind, but until that contract is signed nothing is certain.

[ConorKilpatrick]

In case you couldn't tell my favorite team just traded my favorite player (who happens to be the best pitcher in the game) for a water cooler and a bucket of balls. I'm a little annoyed.

Keep in mind there was not much the Twins could do, Santana basically forced them to trade him this week.

[mjm05k]

Jon - since they already broke ground on the new Twins stadium, pouring gasoline on the Metrodome would just save them some demolition costs down the road. It's like the opposite of the Herschel Walker trade...

[Aaron J Scott]

Jon, I can't say that I feel your pain, but I know I'm still peeved the Cards traded Danny Haren to the As for Mulder--and people thought that was slightly more even at the time. Bollocks.

Other than that, I can't wait for spring training to start. And the Cards are coming to SPFD to play our AA S-Cards, and I get to be on the field for that one. Ahh, fourth estate, how I love thee.

[mattk]

In case you couldn't tell my favorite team just traded my favorite player (who happens to be the best pitcher in the game) for a water cooler and a bucket of balls. I'm a little annoyed.

Although i do think Santana is one of the best pitchers in the game, I think it would be hard to argue against Beckett being the best pitcher right now especially w/ his postseason history.

[Jon_Samuelson]

Beckett's certainly the best post-season pitcher in the game right now, and he did have a hell of a year this past year. But as far as straight up statistical dominance goes, it doesn't get any better than Santana over the past 4 years.

It's just so disappointing for me. I really feel like "small" market teams get shafted from every possible angle. We can't afford to go out and sign big free agents. We can't afford to keep our own great players. We can't draft the best available talent because they all expect ridiculous signing bonuses anymore. And we can't even get value for our established veterans because no teams are very willing to part with good prospects anymore.

I really think that if the options at this point were between accepting this "offer" from the Mets and just keeping Santana for the year and getting the two draft picks when he left via free agency, that the Twins should've gone with "B". At least this way we could have taken some of the money we saved on not signing Santana long term and put it towards drafting and signing the best possible talent out of the draft. I really believe that the two draft pick we'd have gotten would be more talent than we got off of the Mets.

[mattk]

I would feel the same way except my Indians kind of disprove that theory. We were tied for the best record in baseball and didn't have a large payroll. We beat the highest pay-rolled team in baseball in the playoffs. We have a great farm system and a front office that knows how to secure that. It's not easy but it still can be done.

And really, the Twins were straight up stupid for not taking the Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera deal that was on the table. That was a solid deal.

[hank41]

my vote is for Beckett simply for his post-season history. and he did it at such a young age- '03 Marlins

PS: this is the year of the Cubbies!!!

[RaceMcCloud]

Beckett's certainly the best post-season pitcher in the game right now, and he did have a hell of a year this past year. But as far as straight up statistical dominance goes, it doesn't get any better than Santana over the past 4 years.

It's just so disappointing for me. I really feel like "small" market teams get shafted from every possible angle. We can't afford to go out and sign big free agents. We can't afford to keep our own great players. We can't draft the best available talent because they all expect ridiculous signing bonuses anymore. And we can't even get value for our established veterans because no teams are very willing to part with good prospects anymore.

I really think that if the options at this point were between accepting this "offer" from the Mets and just keeping Santana for the year and getting the two draft picks when he left via free agency, that the Twins should've gone with "B". At least this way we could have taken some of the money we saved on not signing Santana long term and put it towards drafting and signing the best possible talent out of the draft. I really believe that the two draft pick we'd have gotten would be more talent than we got off of the Mets.

The problem is, Carl Pohlad isn't exactly "small" financially. He's one of the richest owners in baseball. He's just cheap. And Minny just doled out some bucks to keep Morneau and Cudyer, did they not? I guess they felt they couldn't afford Johan at the price he was going to command, and let him go. Either way, Minny has been a better team than the Mets for most of the last decade. This is the way it works in baseball economic. Some teams draft well and have good young players, and some teams spend big and have great veteran players. Both methods have led to championships in the past.

[torippu]

Rackin, frackin, schmakin...being a Braves fan, I'm not looking forward to those inter-division match ups with the Mets in 2008.

[acomicbookgirl]

I can't wait for baseball season..

Andruw is a Dodger and Torre managing them is making me giddy like a schoolgirl. :o

I'm intrigued on how the Braves will do this season...

[fred]

This is SOOO AWESOME.

17 days until Johan Santana reports to spring training.

[shaundaniels]

Keep in mind there was not much the Twins could do, Santana basically forced them to trade him this week.

Not just that but everyday it got closer to the trade deadline or opening day(yes I know the season hasn't started) the Twins lose leverage. I wanted him on the RedSox but they won with out him last and they were not approaching the trade at necessity. The general feeling in Boston was to up the price and make the Yankees give up more for him. I think he would have worked well with the Yankees but feel they need more then just him.

[Euchre0]

I was glad to see that. It means the Indians won't have to face him until the World Series - although we are pretty much the only team that owns him.

I had the same thought! The Indians are my team over all other teams in sports, so I am glad to see there's another Tribe fan on these boards.

As you said, the Indians owned Santana last year, but I think he is too good of a pitcher to be consistently owned like that for long.

[Euchre0]

Although i do think Santana is one of the best pitchers in the game, I think it would be hard to argue against Beckett being the best pitcher right now especially w/ his postseason history.

Beckett's dominance in the post season is pretty amazing but he's had more time in the playoffs, but it is still only confined to 2 seasons. I'm not doubting that he'll continue for years to come in Boston, but it is a small sample group.

Santana, since becoming a starter in 2003 has been to the playoffs three times and posted a 2.97 ERA. Pretty darn good as well, though not as overwhelmingly dominant as Beckett's two post seasons, where his ERA is over a full run lower at 1.73.

That said, Santana, since becoming a starter, has consistently been a more dominating pitcher from season to season than Beckett.

Honestly, Curt Schilling's post season stats are better than either of those two.

Now, if could know for sure that Beckett will never get a blister again...

[acomicbookgirl]

This is SOOO AWESOME.

17 days until Johan Santana reports to spring training.


That is sooo awesome! I thought of you when I heard about Johan.. Mets are a force to be reckoned with.

Have they posted game schedules yet? are tickets for sale? I would like to do a baseball game when I go to New York in april..

[fred]

They're in Philly that weekend. The next weekend is the Braves at home.

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/schedule/index.jsp?c_id=nym&m=4&y=2008

[acomicbookgirl]

They're in Philly that weekend. The next weekend is the Braves at home.

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/schedule/index.jsp?c_id=nym&m=4&y=2008

what?! No Mets?! Damn it.. Wonder if the Yankees are in town..

Why couldn't they play the Braves when I was in town! :mad:

[fred]

Yankees are in Baltimore

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/schedule/index.jsp?c_id=nyy&m=4&y=2008

[acomicbookgirl]

Yankees are in Baltimore

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/schedule/index.jsp?c_id=nyy&m=4&y=2008

Argh! Am I asking for too much just to see a baseball game while I'm in New York... Do I really want to see the Nats get a beatdown by the Mets?

[fred]

There's single A ball.

[acomicbookgirl]

There's single A ball.

Yeah... I've never been to a single A ball game...

But I really wanted to do Yankee Stadium because I think this is last year before they move to the new stadium.. When do they Mets get their new stadium?

I wanted a pic with Mr. Met.. I wished the Dodgers had a mascot..

[fred]

This is the Mets' last year in Shea. Citi Field opens in '09.

[acomicbookgirl]

This is the Mets' last year in Shea. Citi Field opens in '09.

Damn it... :mad: Wait.. The Nats on Jackie Robinson day... Hmmmm... sounds tempting...

[Euchre0]

Do I really want to see the Nats get a beatdown by the Mets?

Absolutely, I would. A chance to see either Santana, Pedro, Oliver Perez, El Duque, or even John Maine pitch? Man, what a good staff if they can stay healthy for a good portion of the year! Plus, the Mets has reyes, wright, beltran and delgado every day. that Nats aren't great, but I'd still watch, if only to see Ryan Zimmerman.

[bigyanks]

was it safe to say the mets were a dark horse contender for johan?

[fred]

Best rotation in baseball.

There, I said it.

Santana, Perez, Maine, Hernandez, Martinez.

[Euchre0]

was it safe to say the mets were a dark horse contender for johan?


yeah, they seemed to always be at the end of the conversation that always began with the yankees and the red sox. It was thought they would have to include jose reyes to have a shot, which they wisely refused to do.

Best rotation in baseball.
It sure is hard to think of another rotation to argue with. Perez seems to be good every other year, so this would be an off year at that pace. However, he has displayed incredible stuff, and if Pedro and El Duque can stay healthy for at least 20 starts each, they really could be the best in baseball.

[fred]

Carlos Gomez is going to be great. I'd rather that they didn't have to give him up, but Santana is worth it. Dude is fucking FAST, seriously, he's faster than Reyes.

[Euchre0]

Carlos Gomez is going to be great. I'd rather that they didn't have to give him up, but Santana is worth it. Dude is fucking FAST, seriously, he's faster than Reyes.

is he a good hitter?

[fred]

He'll become a good hitter. He's barely 21 and hits well enough. They frequently batted him eight and it was like having two lead-off guys when they came through the bottom of the order.

[mattk]

Well not to be an Indians fanboy or anything, but considering our 1-2 punch i'm holding out that we will at least have the best rotation in the AL this year. That being said, what the Mets gave up for Santana is rediculous. I still think the Twins were idiots for not taking Hughes and at least getting a good starting pitcher replacement out of it. Ah well, as it is, i don't care much. He's in the NL.

[Euchre0]

Well not to be an Indians fanboy or anything, but considering our 1-2 punch i'm holding out that we will at least have the best rotation in the AL this year.
Man I don't know...who knows if carmona will repeat what he did last year and if he doesn't, they'll have a good one, but i don't know about best in the AL. Even worse, if Lee and Sowers don't recover that could hurt big time.

then again, i am having trouble thinking of an AL rotationt that's heads and tails above the Indians. If Bonderman keeps it together, the tigers look pretty good, especailyl if willis is good...which i think he will.

[LastChancer]

I'm rather excited for this baseball season. My hometown Blue Jays have been on the verge of being a contender for a few years now, and if they can avoid another season where all of our pitchers get hurt this could be the year they make something happen.

Adding Scott Rolen does nothing but help make us better. However signing Eckstein was a mistake. Last year John McDonald was fantastic at short stop and he deserves the chance to try again this year. Hopefully the Jays give him a shot before too long.

In closing, go Jays.

[Aaron J Scott]

Damn it... :mad: Wait.. The Nats on Jackie Robinson day... Hmmmm... sounds tempting...

I went to the Brew Crew/Cards game last year on Jackie Robinson Day in St. Louis and it was fantastic. EVERYBODY on the field was wearing 42 and they had a few of Jackie's family members along with the wife of the first pitcher who faced him. They talked about how this pitcher had the opportunity to give Jackie some chin music but gave him a good, hard fastball instead, just like he would any other batter. It was a great game (and a good routing of the Brewers).

So, yeah, go see that game.

[Aaron J Scott]

Adding Scott Rolen does nothing but help make us better. However signing Eckstein was a mistake.

I wouldn't bash on Davey so quickly. I loved having in St. Louis because of the intangibles he brought to the game. A lot of people might laugh watching him leg out a walk, but I think it says a lot about his character as a person and a ballplayer. He's a guy the kids can look up to. I hope, by the time the season is over, you will have grown to like him.

[LastChancer]

I wouldn't bash on Davey so quickly. I loved having in St. Louis because of the intangibles he brought to the game. A lot of people might laugh watching him leg out a walk, but I think it says a lot about his character as a person and a ballplayer. He's a guy the kids can look up to. I hope, by the time the season is over, you will have grown to like him.

It's not that I have anything against Eckstein, I think he's a solid ball player. It's just that after last season I think John McDonald earned the shortstop gig. Towards the end of the season he started developing some chemistry with Aaron Hill and the two of them started pulling off some great double plays.

[Euchre0]

I am excited to see if Tampa Bay can make any strides this year. Their top three pitchers are Kazmir, Shields, and the newly acquired Garza. It's probably way too early, but they could also have the top pick Price showing up sometime in the middle of the summer.

[RaceMcCloud]

I am excited to see if Tampa Bay can make any strides this year. Their top three pitchers are Kazmir, Shields, and the newly acquired Garza. It's probably way too early, but they could also have the top pick Price showing up sometime in the middle of the summer.

If Tampa Bay were in any other division, I'd pick them to make the playoffs. But they have to deal with (say it with me) the Red Sox and the Yankees. They and the Blue Jays probably can't climb those mountains; but TB should LAP Baltimore. It's too bad; I like their pitching and i like their new ownership and I'll root for the Rays from a distance.

[Euchre0]

It sure doesn't seem realistic to see the Rays in the playoffs anywhere in the next 10 years. While I don't think it'll come close to this, it sure would be exciting to have them hanging around with Boston and New York at any point after the all star break. Then again, perhaps the new name and uniforms will work some magic...;)

[Doc Samson]

"It means the Indians won't have to face him until the World Series..."

Wow, I think my boys in Detroit might have something to say about that this year, not exactly the same lineup anymore is it now?

[mattk]

"It means the Indians won't have to face him until the World Series..."

Wow, I think my boys in Detroit might have something to say about that this year, not exactly the same lineup anymore is it now?

No doubt the best line-up in the league, but pitching is what gets you far. And i really think that Detroit pitching is on the downswing even with the addition of Willis - i'm not buying that a change of scenery is going to magically drop his ERA below 4.5. I think Rogers is washed and i'm hoping Bonderman has still lost his stuff. And that leaves Verlander to carry the load that he couldn't last year. And your Pen leaves a lot to be wanting...

I'm in the minority in thinking these things - but we Indians fans are used to being in the minority.

[Doc Samson]

I hear you, the pen does stink, but then again, if they win 8-7, I could care less, as long as they win. I think it's going to be VERY hard to keep this team from scoring a TON of runs. Hell, they even have a pitcher who can hit now for interleague play!

[Euchre0]

"It means the Indians won't have to face him until the World Series..."

Wow, I think my boys in Detroit might have something to say about that this year, not exactly the same lineup anymore is it now?

The biggest add for Detroit was Cabrera, but if Hafner can rebound from his season last year, he is pretty close to equal to Cabrera. Plus, who knows how Sheffield will play once he comes back. Ordonez is a looooooooong shot to repeat what he did last year, though I think he'll have a very good years. It's a little early to say that Detroit is already better than Cleveland.

However, I do think Willis will have a rebound year. I wouldn't be surprised to see him win 15 games with a 3.40 ERA.

[mattk]

"Sabathia tables contract talks with Indians until after season"

Well, call me naive but I really thought he was going to sign with the Indians before the season starts. Now it looks like we'll have to trade him midseason to get any value out of him - cause there is no way to sign him at the end of the season.

[Euchre0]

What if, despite what many people project, the Indians are well established at the top of the division at the trade deadline? Should the Indians try to just go for it with Sabbathia or trade him and hope for the best?

Intellect and strategy says to trade him, but in the back of my mind I keep thinking, "They came within one game of the World Series last year! Just go for it!"

Wish he'd just settle for the "lousy" $17 million the Indians are reportedly willing to pay him.

[Doc Samson]

The biggest add for Detroit was Cabrera, but if Hafner can rebound from his season last year, he is pretty close to equal to Cabrera. Plus, who knows how Sheffield will play once he comes back. Ordonez is a looooooooong shot to repeat what he did last year, though I think he'll have a very good years. It's a little early to say that Detroit is already better than Cleveland.

However, I do think Willis will have a rebound year. I wouldn't be surprised to see him win 15 games with a 3.40 ERA.

Actually I'd say it's a little early to say the Indians are going to be better than the Tigers...

[shaundaniels]

When I woke up this morning my wife said those three words I love to hear.............................................. .......pitchers & catchers report

[mattk]

Actually I'd say it's a little early to say the Indians are going to be better than the Tigers...

Indians proved last season that they were better than Detroit. Detroit may have made some crazy additions, but they are all still just on paper as the season hasn't started. So until the season starts and the Tigers prove me wrong - as far I am concerned - the Indians are better than the Tigers.

[Euchre0]

plus, the tigers have at least two guys who struggled mightily last year, Bonderman and Sheffield. Bonderman struggled and then was plain crappy to end the year. Sheffield started awful, then suged, then got hurt. Those two guys are key for the Tigers to be as amazing as everyone thinks.


As Matt said, the Indians were great last year and have basically the same team this year. Sure, one could point out that Carmona is young and could face ill effects of pitching so much last year, but one could also say the same thing about Verlander (although I wouldn't be surprised to see him win the Cy Young). In any case, no, it is not too early to say the Indians are better than the Tigers. On the other hand, April 1st wouldn't be too early to reverse that statement.

[Doc Samson]

My reasoning is that Detroit made it to the WS year before last right? So they should've been better than the Indians last year right? Obviously that didn't work out, and I honestly believe that half of that was because of injuries to key players (Sheffield, Bonderman, Zumaya, Rogers). This year, they've added huge components to a team that was already going to be better if the injury bug doesn't bite them as hard. And the Indians have stood pat. Anyway, long season, looking forward to it. GO TIGERS!

[fred]

"Sabathia tables contract talks with Indians until after season"

Well, call me naive but I really thought he was going to sign with the Indians before the season starts. Now it looks like we'll have to trade him midseason to get any value out of him - cause there is no way to sign him at the end of the season.

You actually made me dance a little in my chair. Way to go dude. ;)

[mattk]

You actually made me dance a little in my chair. Way to go dude. ;)

Grrr...

[Euchre0]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sabbathia pulled a Lebron and just started showing up to the ball park with a Yankees hat on.

[hank41]

my vote goes for Indians over Tigers. Indians hitters were really consistent last year.

PS: Cubs anyone???

[Euchre0]

My reasoning is that Detroit made it to the WS year before last right? So they should've been better than the Indians last year right? Obviously that didn't work out, and I honestly believe that half of that was because of injuries to key players (Sheffield, Bonderman, Zumaya, Rogers). This year, they've added huge components to a team that was already going to be better if the injury bug doesn't bite them as hard. And the Indians have stood pat. Anyway, long season, looking forward to it. GO TIGERS!

...touche.

[Euchre0]

Cubs anyone???

I think they'll be good and are the clear favorites for the NL Central, even though the Cardinals are getting a healthy Chris Carpenter back. Then again, there is talk that Pujols probably will be hurt all season and that he may not even finish the season.

I am very interested to see how this Fukudome guy does. It'd be awesome if he is as successful as Ichiro was his first year. Even being as good as Hideki Matsui would be a big boost to the Cubs. Hopefully he doesn't flounder like Kaz Matsui (although he was pretty good last year.) Also, Derrek Lee is interesting. He should be fully recovered from his injuries by now, so I'm interested to see if he can approach his 2005 form where he was a threat for the triple crown for a while.

[acomicbookgirl]

Dodgers play the Giants on opening day... :)

[mattk]

What if, despite what many people project, the Indians are well established at the top of the division at the trade deadline? Should the Indians try to just go for it with Sabbathia or trade him and hope for the best?

Intellect and strategy says to trade him, but in the back of my mind I keep thinking, "They came within one game of the World Series last year! Just go for it!"

Wish he'd just settle for the "lousy" $17 million the Indians are reportedly willing to pay him.

Shapiro stated today that he is not accepting any trade offers for Sabathia. I guess that means World Series or bust!

[ConorKilpatrick]

Shapiro stated today that he is not accepting any trade offers for Sabathia. I guess that means World Series or bust!

He probably should have qualified that with "assuming we're still in the race come trade deadline time."

[Euchre0]

Hey Conor, do you pull for one of the NY teams?

[Doc Samson]

Anyone use mlb.tv to watch games? I've got the Dish and of course they don't have MLB Extra Innings. Supposedly it's pretty good, other than the fact it has to be watched on my monitor that is.

[torippu]

Anyone use mlb.tv to watch games? I've got the Dish and of course they don't have MLB Extra Innings. Supposedly it's pretty good, other than the fact it has to be watched on my monitor that is.

I'd like to hear the opinions for mlb.tv as well. My Braves aren't going to be on TBS any more so I need to either invest in MLB Extra Innings or mlb.tv to be able to watch them this year. Which of the two options is cheaper? I think that mlb.tv is $15/month but I wasn't able to find the price for Extra Innings when I was looking a couple of months ago.

[acomicbookgirl]

I'd like to hear the opinions for mlb.tv as well. My Braves aren't going to be on TBS any more so I need to either invest in MLB Extra Innings or mlb.tv to be able to watch them this year. Which of the two options is cheaper? I think that mlb.tv is $15/month but I wasn't able to find the price for Extra Innings when I was looking a couple of months ago.

The Braves aren't going to be on TBS anymore? :(

Extra Innings is like $160...

[kwok_talk]

I'd like to hear the opinions for mlb.tv as well. My Braves aren't going to be on TBS any more so I need to either invest in MLB Extra Innings or mlb.tv to be able to watch them this year. Which of the two options is cheaper? I think that mlb.tv is $15/month but I wasn't able to find the price for Extra Innings when I was looking a couple of months ago.

My brother used MLB tv for the last two years. He liked it enough to keep using it, but his chief complaint was that not all games were put online. He was trying to follow the Cardinals during his time in Michigan, but if the game was broadcast locally in STL, he had no access to the game.

[Euchre0]

Anyone use mlb.tv to watch games? I've got the Dish and of course they don't have MLB Extra Innings. Supposedly it's pretty good, other than the fact it has to be watched on my monitor that is.

I've used MLB.TV for three years. It's pretty good. I like the Indians, so if I want to see any games in Texas, it's this or nothing. If you use MLB.TV, you can't use it for local teams based on where your credit card billing goes. So, living in Texas, I can watch the Indians, but I can't watch the Astros or Rangers, including if they are playing away games. So if you live in Atlanta, chances are that you won't be able to use it for the Braves. On the other hand, they archive the games, so I think you can go watch an archived game for your region after the game is over.

Also, they black out nationally televised games, like those on Saturday afternoons on Fox. If Fox is broadcasting a Met/Cardinals game to half the country and Mariners/Angels game to the other half, people using MLB.TV can't watch either. That always sucks, since Fox tries to show good games.

They've been improving, however, now adding some minor league broadcasts and including radio broadcasts to the package. I may be mistaken, but I believe the radio feeds aren't blacked out by location at all.

[Euchre0]

After all that, I have a follow up question. I got a mac last summer and one drawback for MLB.tv is that you have to use windows media to play it. I got the mac version, but it plays the games VERY choppy and very behind the audio. I'm pretty sure it isn't my computer, but it stinks that I can't watch the games (enjoyably, at least) on my laptop.

So if any one happens to know how to overcome this problem with windows media on macs, whether for MLB tv or just in general, please help me out.

[Deezer]

22 days until Red Sox opening day. SO damn excited to watch this year... especially since my school has a nice area for watching games and such

[torippu]

The Braves aren't going to be on TBS anymore? :(


Yep - the days when TBS showed Braves games ended last year. Instead TBS spent a boatload of money to broadcast Sunday afternoon MLB games. If the Braves happen to be selected, then TBS will broadcast them. Otherwise, if you live outside the Atlanta area, then mlb.tv and Extra Innings are your options.

[RaceMcCloud]

Hey, who's the best shortstop in baseball?

Oh, that's right, it's Jose Reyes. Geez, I almost forgot. Thanks for showing up again, Jose!

[Doc Samson]

Hey Indians, can you at least win one freaking game against the White Sox to help out the Tigers a little bit, geezus. (Not that Detroit is helping itself right now anyway.)

[Doc Samson]

Guess not! Great job!

[Euchre0]

Hey, who's the best shortstop in baseball?

Oh, that's right, it's Jose Reyes. Geez, I almost forgot. Thanks for showing up again, Jose!

Geez, that's a funny way of spelling "H-a-n-l-e-y R-a-m-i-r-e-z."

Doc Samson, asking the 2008 Indians to win a game they should is like asking a a cat to breathe under water. As an Indians fan, it is very frustrating since I look at the White Sox and Twins and continually think, "Come on! We're better than those guys and the Tigers are only getting better." I don't know how such a promising team goes from one game from being in the World Series (where they would have steamrolled the Rockies as surely as Boston did) to being 12 games under .500 AND worse than the Royals. Baseball sure can be frustrating sometimes.

I don't think there is a man in sports I like less than Ozzie Gullien.

[RaceMcCloud]

Geez, that's a funny way of spelling "H-a-n-l-e-y R-a-m-i-r-e-z."



I laughed, I laughed again, I laughed some more. Hanley Ramirez is an obnoxious punk who is uber-talented, yes, but needs to be put into his place and will be playing the outfield within two seasons.

[ConorKilpatrick]

I laughed, I laughed again, I laughed some more. Hanley Ramirez is an obnoxious punk who is uber-talented, yes, but needs to be put into his place and will be playing the outfield within two seasons.

Sounds kind of like tantrum-throwing Jose Reyes.

[Euchre0]

Yeah, why is Hanley Ramirez an obnoxious punk? Does he sit in the back of the bus making fart noises with his arm pit? Does he yell "Hey batta, batta!" at the opposing batters? I'm not an apologist for Mr. Ramirez, but I am awed by his astounding skills. Now, I will grant you that when I look at their profile pictures, Jose has a sweet smile and Hanley has his hat slightly cocked to the side, which I am not a fan of.

Ramirez will probably be playing outfield in two seasons, but so will Chase Utely, who is far and away the best 2nd baseman in baseball, so that really doesn't matter.

[Doc Samson]

Doc Samson, asking the 2008 Indians to win a game they should is like asking a a cat to breathe under water. As an Indians fan, it is very frustrating since I look at the White Sox and Twins and continually think, "Come on! We're better than those guys and the Tigers are only getting better." I don't know how such a promising team goes from one game from being in the World Series (where they would have steamrolled the Rockies as surely as Boston did) to being 12 games under .500 AND worse than the Royals. Baseball sure can be frustrating sometimes..

Wow, and now you're about to lose CC, guess they gave up. And the Tigers won today, by barely getting a run off a freaking CATCHER! Awful baseball all around!

[Euchre0]

Wow, and now you're about to lose CC, guess they gave up.

yeah, man, talk about throwing up a white flag. It's just as well: now I can be a full fledged bandwagon Rays fan instead of just a half hearted one.

[RaceMcCloud]

Hey, Yankee fans... Pedroia = Jeter (in his prime).

Did anyone else see that at bat?

[ConorKilpatrick]

Hey, Yankee fans... Pedroia = Jeter (in his prime).

Did anyone else see that at bat?

I definitely saw him getting thrown out by three feet.

[RaceMcCloud]

I definitely saw him getting thrown out by three feet.

Well, that particular move was un-Jeterian. But he seems to be able to get a base hit or a walk whenever he wants. That's mid-90's Jeter.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Well, that particular move was un-Jeterian. But he seems to be able to get a base hit or a walk whenever he wants. That's mid-90's Jeter.

I would like to see one of these Boston guys be able to sustain that for more than one season. Is Pedroia another Jeter or another Mueller? Only time will tell.

[RaceMcCloud]

I would like to see one of these Boston guys be able to sustain that for more than one season. Is Pedroia another Jeter or another Mueller? Only time will tell.

Well, he's good enough to play second on my fantasy team next year.

[RaceMcCloud]

All right, Jeter would have gotten a hit there. I take it back.

[Euchre0]

I was about 20 minutes behind on Tivo, so I couldn't allow myself to click on this thread for fear of seeing a post that was like "Man, I can't believe Ortiz hit another 3 run shot!" or something. Thankfully, that didn't happen.

Yay! I am so happy! Being an Indians fan, this felt like deja vu all over again, so this outcome is incredibly relieving.

[RaceMcCloud]

I was about 20 minutes behind on Tivo, so I couldn't allow myself to click on this thread for fear of seeing a post that was like "Man, I can't believe Ortiz hit another 3 run shot!" or something. Thankfully, that didn't happen.

Yay! I am so happy! Being an Indians fan, this felt like deja vu all over again, so this outcome is incredibly relieving.

Now I get to root for Tampa Bay in the World Series. Crazy game, baseball.

[hank41]

Go Cubs!!!


...i hate my life

[RaceMcCloud]

Go Cubs!!!


...i hate my life

I've been trying to figure out if it's worse right now to be a Cubs, Mets or Angels fan.

I'm going to go with Cubs. I feel your pain, bro.

[tomanderson]

Mets fans have to be pretty sour though, 2 years in a row they blew their leads and self destructed.

[Jon_Samuelson]

I've been trying to figure out if it's worse right now to be a Cubs, Mets or Angels fan.

I'm going to go with Cubs. I feel your pain, bro.

I don't think there's any question about it. They're sports most enduringly superstitious fans. They thought all of the planets were aligned, and then they got completely destroyed. When Loney(sp?) hit that homer it was OVER.

[hank41]

sorry, i would type a reponse, but im too busy weeping hysterically

[Jon_Samuelson]

sorry, i would type a reponse, but im too busy weeping hysterically

Sorry about your pain, man. My best friend is from Chicago, and he literally went up and wept in the shower after the Cubs lost in '04 to the Marlins. I know all too well how much it affects you guys.

[RaceMcCloud]

Mets fans have to be pretty sour though, 2 years in a row they blew their leads and self destructed.

Bullpen. Bullpen, bullpen, bullpen, bullpen, bullpen, bullpen. Did I mention the bullpen?

[ConorKilpatrick]

Bullpen. Bullpen, bullpen, bullpen, bullpen, bullpen, bullpen. Did I mention the bullpen?

Also, zero offense in the final week.

[RaceMcCloud]

Also, zero offense in the final week.

You forgot about the bullpen.

[hank41]

Also, zero offense in the final week.

yeah, didn't Wright, Reyes, and Beltran go, like, 2-19 in the couple games???

[RaceMcCloud]

yeah, didn't Wright, Reyes, and Beltran go, like, 2-19 in the couple games???

Let's be clear: Wright, Reyes, and Beltran were not the problem with this team. There's only so many blown leads and saves a team can come back from in the course of the year. If the Mets bullpen had only blown half of the saves they blew this year, the Mets win the division by something like ten games. Compare that to the Phillies, where Brad Lidge was perfect. (He's th Cy Young as far as I'm concerned.) Every team blows games. The Mets bullpen did it on a daily basis. I know it's sexier to blame the big names, but to say the Mets offense is the reason they didn't make the postseason is an uninformed opinion. It. Was. The. Bullpen.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Let's be clear: Wright, Reyes, and Beltran were not the problem with this team. There's only so many blown leads and saves a team can come back from in the course of the year. If the Mets bullpen had only blown half of the saves they blew this year, the Mets win the division by something like ten games. Compare that to the Phillies, where Brad Lidge was perfect. (He's th Cy Young as far as I'm concerned.) Every team blows games. The Mets bullpen did it on a daily basis. I know it's sexier to blame the big names, but to say the Mets offense is the reason they didn't make the postseason is an uninformed opinion. It. Was. The. Bullpen.

And the lack of clutch hitting. Again.

[RaceMcCloud]

And the lack of clutch hitting. Again.

Oh, come on. What, were you only watching the last week? This team did its job offensively all year. Look at the stats. There are only so many blown leads/devastating losses a team can psychologically come back from before they're too worn down to do it anymore. They had two blown leads, TWO of 'em, against the Pirates, a team that was asking to be beaten in the second half. The bullpen converts those saves, hey, guess what, the Mets are in the playoffs.

They didn't hit well the last week, no. But they hit very well all year, and in that last week they should never have been in the position they were in, a position they were in because of the bullpen. And now I have to sit here an listen to that gasbag Mike Francesca say that Wright/Reyes/Beltran should be traded. First of all, no. You don't trade three of the best players in the league, two of whom are only 26 and probably haven't even hit there prime. Second of all... who do you think you're getting back for them that makes the trade work for the Mets? Not enough, that's for sure.

Okay, that was a tangent. But I blame the bullpen entirely for this Mets season. Entirely.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Oh, come on. What, were you only watching the last week? This team did its job offensively all year. Look at the stats. There are only so many blown leads/devastating losses a team can psychologically come back from before they're too worn down to do it anymore. They had two blown leads, TWO of 'em, against the Pirates, a team that was asking to be beaten in the second half. The bullpen converts those saves, hey, guess what, the Mets are in the playoffs.

Two years in a row of complete collapses at the end and the common element to both is lack of hitting/toughness. I think last year's collapse amplified the pressure this year and then no one hit again. Again, lack of toughness.

And now I have to sit here an listen to that gasbag Mike Francesca say that Wright/Reyes/Beltran should be traded. First of all, no. You don't trade three of the best players in the league, two of whom are only 26 and probably haven't even hit there prime.

Wright and Reyes are not among the best players in the league. Not even close.

[RaceMcCloud]

Wright and Reyes are not among the best players in the league. Not even close.

You're out of your mind. You just invalidated any baseball opinion you might have.

This is a sensitive subject, if you couldn't tell. :D

But you're still, you know, wrong.

[ConorKilpatrick]

You're out of your mind. You just invalidated any baseball opinion you might have.

This is a sensitive subject, if you couldn't tell. :D

But you're still, you know, wrong.

Wright is an above average hitter and a below average fielder.

Reyes plays like one of the best players in the league for maybe two months out of the year.

[RaceMcCloud]

Oh, I almost forgot... Conor, you're a Yankees fan, aren't you? Well, you have two options in this thread... talk baseball, or talk like a stereotypical Yankees fan. You've clearly chosen the latter, so this conversation is over. The Mets are clearly a flawed team (as are the Yankees, natch), but if you just want to bash for the sake of bashing without really knowing what you're talking about, I'm not interested.

You know what, maybe we should leave this alone and just talk about Batman, Secret Invasion and Alan Moore. :D

[RaceMcCloud]

Wright is an above average hitter and a below average fielder.

Reyes plays like one of the best players in the league for maybe two months out of the year.

Wright won a gold glove last year.

Reyes... well, I don't even know what to say about that comment. You obviously either have no clue, or are too anti-Mets to look at him realistically.

Truth is, anyone putting a team together would take Reyes right now over Jeter right now. I'm not knocking Jeter's past accomplishments, but right now, today... that's a no-brainer.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Wright won a gold glove last year.

Lots of people win things they shouldn't.

Truth is, anyone putting a team together would take Reyes right now over Jeter right now. I'm not knocking Jeter's past accomplishments, but right now, today... that's a no-brainer.

You maybe. But not most. I bet not even most GMs.

[RaceMcCloud]

Lots of people win things they shouldn't.



You maybe. But not most. I bet not even most GMs.

Why am I even trying to discuss baseball with a Yankee fan?

[ConorKilpatrick]

Why am I even trying to discuss baseball with a Yankee fan?

Hey, keep those two guys. No skin off my nose. Hope you don't mind never winning, though.

[RaceMcCloud]

As long as we have a Yankees fan discussing what was wrong with the Mets (incorrectly, might I add), I may as well chime in on what was wrong with the Yankees.

1.) Anchored their pitching staff on three rookies. Hughes and Kennedy were busts (this year), and switching Joba to the rotation was necessary due to Wang's injury, but ill-conceived in the middle of the year. He should probably be the closer of the future.

2.) Wang's injury. They didn't have a back-up plan for it. Wang is a very good number two anyway, not an ace.

3.) Not enough "clutch" hitting until it was too late.

4.) Injuries in general. (Not an excuse for any team, but certainly a reason for diminished returns on investment.)

5.) The regression of Robinson Cano. What happened?

Hey, i don't watch Yankees games, and there are other things I could be missing or things I could be wrong about, but I'd say their biggest mistake was gambling so heavily on Hughes and Kennedy, and crapping out so completely on that. Still, they're young, and let's see what next year brings (although Kennedy showed almost nothing encouraging at all.)

[RaceMcCloud]

Hey, keep those two guys. No skin off my nose. Hope you don't mind never winning, though.

Unbelievable. Okay, tell me this. Who would you trade them for? Everyone who says they want to trade them, never gives back that detail. Who are you getting for them?

[ConorKilpatrick]

As long as we have a Yankees fan discussing what was wrong with the Mets (incorrectly, might I add), I may as well chime in on what was wrong with the Yankees.

1.) Anchored their pitching staff on three rookies. Hughes and Kennedy were busts (this year), and switching Joba to the rotation was necessary due to Wang's injury, but ill-conceived in the middle of the year. He should probably be the closer of the future.

2.) Wang's injury. They didn't have a back-up plan for it. Wang is a very good number two anyway, not an ace.

3.) Not enough "clutch" hitting until it was too late.

4.) Injuries in general. (Not an excuse for any team, but certainly a reason for diminished returns on investment.)

5.) The regression of Robinson Cano. What happened?

Hey, i don't watch Yankees games, and there are other things I could be missing or things I could be wrong about, but I'd say their biggest mistake was gambling so heavily on Hughes and Kennedy, and crapping out so completely on that. Still, they're young, and let's see what next year brings (although Kennedy showed almost nothing encouraging at all.)

Dude, I never brought up the Yankees in comparison. They suck. Their problems are too innumerable to count, are systemic, and will continue for years. Now you're just sounding hysterial.

[RaceMcCloud]

Dude, I never brought up the Yankees in comparison. They suck. Their problems are too innumerable to count, are systemic, and will continue for years. Now you're just sounding hysterial.

No, they'll reload next year with Sabathia and more. They play in maybe the toughest division in baseball, but they'll be there next year. Also, I don't think my response was hysterical; I think I was fair with the biggest problems the Yankees had this year.

Look, the Mets didn't hit in the last week of the year, and to the outside observer, that appears to be why they failed again. Truth is, as a Mets fan, I watched game after game all year where late leads were blown, and I could tell you then that it was going to come back to haunt them and it did. Again, there are only so many blown leads/devastating losses a team can come back from before that struggle starts to weigh on them psychologically. It's the hardest thing to bounce back from in sports, and the Mets had to do it over and over and over again all season. By the end, they were depleted on the roster and worn down as a team. Add that to the albatross of the previous year hanging over them... again, the casual observer looks at the last week and says, "Oh, they didn't hit again." The truth is the problem stems from the horrendous, horrendous bullpen, not a line up that, by the end of the year, only had four players left in it anyway.

To be fair, They also struggled as a team offensively late in games, which doesn't help when you add in a bullpen that couldn't get me out. Plus, blaming David Wright is sexier than blaming Pedro Feliciano. That having been said, I've yet to hear one proponent of the "trade Wright/Reyes/Beltran" camp who can tell me who they would want back in such a deal. Because those three guys are young, very good players, and teams would be lining up to make that deal. But if the Mets move to trade them now, it would clearly be a panic move, and no team would give them equal value. So I don't see how such a trade is logical or in the Mets best interests.

The Mets and the Yankees both clearly have problems to address. (As do many, many other teams, everyone. I know this is not a Mets/Yankees thread.) I'm saying that Wright, Reyes and Beltran are not problems. They are part of the solution. I wouldn't unload A-Rod, either (as many Yankee fans seem to want to do; utter lunacy), or Hughes, or Cano if I were the Yankees, even though at various points in the year they seemed like part of the problem, too.

[Euchre0]

I know this doesn't pertain to the topic at hand, but if I were part of the Yankees, I'd suggest getting a decent second baseman to play the position from april through may because Cano can't hit in the "cold" months but is money for the rest of the year.

Don't the Mets have a high payroll as well?

[RaceMcCloud]

I know this doesn't pertain to the topic at hand, but if I were part of the Yankees, I'd suggest getting a decent second baseman to play the position from april through may because Cano can't hit in the "cold" months but is money for the rest of the year.

Don't the Mets have a high payroll as well?

Yeah, third highest in baseball. Money well spent. <---- (sarcasm)

Reyes and Wright, however, are under relatively reasonable contracts (remember, this is a business where 5 or 6 million a year for a "B" level player is "reasonable", so it's all relative.)

[Jon_Samuelson]

Lots of people win things they shouldn't.

Derek Jeter for example.


Wright and Reyes are not among the best players in the league. Not even close.

Stat Value (Rank among qualified MLB 3B)

David Wright
Offense
BA: .302 (3rd)
OBP: .390 (3rd)
SLG: .534 (3rd)
OPS: .924 (3rd)
HR: 33 (2nd)
RBI: 124 (1st)
R: 115 (1st)
SB: 15 (3rd)

Defense
Fielding PCT: .962 (10th)
Range Factor: 2.51 (15th)
Zone Rating: .756 (15th)

So, I'll have to concede that David Wright's not the greatest defensive third baseman on the planet. But being top 3 in basically every relevant offensive category at his position sufficiently buoys up his defense that I think he clearly is one of the best players in the league.

Jose Reyes
Offense:
BA: .297 (5th)
OBP: .358 (5th)
SLG: .475 (4th)
OPS: .833 (3rd)
HR: 16 (5th)
RBI: 69 (5th)
R: 113 (2nd)
SB: 56 (1st)

Defense:
Fielding PCT: .974 (11th)
Range Factor: 4.07 (15th)
Zone Rating: .812 (15th)

So, once again Reyes could politely be called a butcher defensively. On the flip-side though he's top 5 among shortstops in every meaningful offensive category. A trade off I'd be more than happy to make for a guy who sets the table, and swipes bases like Reyes does.

It's just incorrect to say that either one of these players isn't among the best in the game. Any GM would blow his load to be offered either one of them as a foundation to build around. The failing of the Mets was, as Race may have mentioned, the bullpen. That's it. End of story. Could their bats have been a bit more active in the final weeks? Sure. Could their late-inning arms have been more capable for the entire year? Absolutely.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Derek Jeter for example.

Absolutely. He probably doesn't deserve the Golden Gloves he has won.


So, I'll have to concede that David Wright's not the greatest defensive third baseman on the planet. But being top 3 in basically every relevant offensive category at his position sufficiently buoys up his defense that I think he clearly is one of the best players in the league.

As I said, above average hitter (who folds when the pressure's on) and below average fielder.



So, once again Reyes could politely be called a butcher defensively. On the flip-side though he's top 5 among shortstops in every meaningful offensive category. A trade off I'd be more than happy to make for a guy who sets the table, and swipes bases like Reyes does.

Ask any baseball person - the most important attribute for a shortstop is his glove, not his bat. Shortstop is one of the few positions you can get away with trading defense for offense (catcher being the other, and possibly center).

It's just incorrect to say that either one of these players isn't among the best in the game. Any GM would blow his load to be offered either one of them as a foundation to build around.

I wouldn't build a team around either one. Not after watching the end of the last two seasons. Just like I wouldn't build a team around Alex Rodriquez.

[Jon_Samuelson]

Look, I don't work for the league or anything, but I like to think of myself as pretty savvy when it comes to baseball. And it's my opinion that the most important thing for ANY player on the field is that they contribute more towards winning games than the next guy. Regardless of how they do it, or what position they play.

These are clickable thumbnails. Forgive me if this isn't a kosher way to display pictures in here, it's the only way I know how. Also please let me know if any of the advertising is... seedy, and I'll try to find a better place to upload the pics.

http://img18.imagevenue.com/loc912/th_23983_fielding_win_shares_122_912lo.JPG (http://img18.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=23983_fielding_win_shares_122_912lo. JPG)

The first of these figures is a histogram of qualified shortstops showing Fielding Win Shares. Basically this (divided by 3) is the number of wins a player added or subtracted to a teams win total at the end of the year based on the quality of his fielding. In this case Reyes falls squarely in the middle. Neither great, nor terrible.

http://img214.imagevenue.com/loc47/th_24107_batting_win_shares_122_47lo.JPG (http://img214.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=24107_batting_win_shares_122_47lo.JP G)

The second figure is a histogram of Batting Win Shares. Again (divided by 3) this is the number of wins a player provided to his team with his bat. In this category Reyes falls behind only Hanley Ramirez (my fantasy SS in my keeper league :)). He's not just above average, he's spectacular.

http://img197.imagevenue.com/loc403/th_24184_total_win_shares_122_403lo.JPG (http://img197.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=24184_total_win_shares_122_403lo.JPG )

The third figure is Total Win Shares, a description of which at this point I trust is redundant.

Yeah, the glove is important for a shortstop, I'm not trying to say it isn't. I love Ozzie Smith as much as the next guy. But whatever deficiencies Reyes may have with his defense, he more than makes up for with his bat.

And as for building a team around either Wright or Reyes (which admittedly I brought up). PECOTA, a statistical prediction tool built by guys whose ability at math puts me to shame (and I think I'm pretty decent) recently put out their predictions for the top 50 players to build a team around. David Wright was #2, Jose Reyes was #6. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to not cede an inch while arguing that David Wright and Jose Reyes aren't even close to the best players in the league?

All in love Conor, I just enjoy arguing baseball stuff.

[ConorKilpatrick]

And as for building a team around either Wright or Reyes (which admittedly I brought up). PECOTA, a statistical prediction tool built by guys whose ability at math puts me to shame (and I think I'm pretty decent) recently put out their predictions for the top 50 players to build a team around. David Wright was #2, Jose Reyes was #6. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to not cede an inch while arguing that David Wright and Jose Reyes aren't even close to the best players in the league?

I put zero credence in formulas and math when evaluating players (other than stats). Baseball comes from the gut.

[Jon_Samuelson]

Haha, fair enough. As long as you admit it, I can respect that.