Episode #55 - "Kingdom Come"

[conorkilpatrick]

http://www.ifanboy.com/images/iFanboy_055_100x100.jpg

Running Time: 00:25:44

It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong, and this week Josh is that big man. Having initially dismissed Kingdom Come, he is now willing to admit his mistake and repent.

Click here for download info and show notes! (http://www.ifanboy.com/archive/weblog/ifanboy_episdoe.html)

[luthor]

Great Episode.

Kingdom Come is my absolute favorite story of all time. I think you guys covered it really well and Josh's criticism was fair.

I think, in a certain way, it changed the way I looked at comics. It really gave me an appreciation for comics that came before my era and realize that there was something of value in those old stories. KC really made me a better comic book fan. It also made Superman for me.

I'd also recommend (http://www.sfsite.com/04a/king30.htm) Elliot S. Maggin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_S!_Maggin)'s novelization highly (http://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Come-Elliot-S-Maggin/dp/0446606693). It does a really good job of capturing those background moments that slip by if you're not paying attention. It also has my favorite Batman moment of all time(chapter 13, I think). If you've really enjoyed the series, you're really doing yourself a disservice not reading it.

One of the many easter eggs in the book is in the epilogue and kind of explains why there's never really been a Kingdom Come 2. If you look in the background of the diner as Clark, Bruce and Diana are talking you can see Mark Waid and the editor of the series(whose name escapes me) getting reamed out by Alex Ross.

One more thing, my tattoo:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2353/2237497578_4d476d8f73.jpg?v=0

[mattk]

Is the epilogue in the TPB as well, or just the Absolute?

[kahunablair]

Is the epilogue in the TPB as well, or just the Absolute?

I have the original TPB, and the diner epilogue is in it.

[optimus187prime]

LOL I love that Ron made him say it

[jasontodd]

I think that the scene when Captain Marvel knocks the hell out of Superman and stands over him is my favorite scene in any comic ever. Definitely top 3 at least. I believe it's at the very end of KC #3.

I think my favorite quote from KC is the Spectre saying "Batman? Batman has his city under control."

[optimus187prime]

Just finished the ep and very good job guys. The only thing I would have liked to hear is more about the JSA connection. I dont keep up with DC proper mainly due to the characters but I would be intrested in JSA if it connected to one of my favorite stories KC.

BTW dont you hate how hard some of those absolutes are impossible to get out of the slipcovers ?

Last question, have you ever considered doing a poll on the forums to propose topics for future video podcasts ? I think this would definitly make us the viewers feel more involved and it would give us exactly what we want (well the majority of us). Just a thought, feel free to shoot it down and attack me personally :p

[jaflanagan]

While we don't formally take suggestions as it were, we're always ALWAYS listening and reading what people say, and it's certainly lead to shows being made. I mean, this one came from people discussing this book on the forums, and me wanting to re-read it. The fact is, we've got stacks of ideas for future shows, and we just have to sort out how and when to do them. That being said, if you've got ideas, send them to us, or post them on here. They will get read and considered.

And maybe a formal viewers choice show can happen sometime. We don't rule anything out.

I would say that we make a concerted effort to make sure people feel like they're involved in the shows, such as making sure we participate in the community discussions, or having voicemail and email shows. We also answer every email we get.

And we wouldn't shoot you down or attack you personally. I promise, we're listening.

[optimus187prime]

And maybe a formal viewers choice show can happen sometime. We don't rule anything out.

That is what I meant. Not exactly a user submitted idea but more like 3 topics you guys wanna do anyway, but us the community (via a poll or something) get to decide what we wanna see the most. I dunno, just thought it sounded fun in my head.


And we wouldn't shoot you down or attack you personally. I promise, we're listening.

I was just being cute about how people respond in most forums the usual "flaming". I dont know if my sense of humor is conveyed how it normally would, text opposed to speech. Its unfortunate, because I am very funny.:p

[gungadin]

My question is how far in advance do y'all tape these shows? Ron, for living on the west coast now, is certainly in them quite a lot... And he doesn't look digitally added...

[esophagus]

My question is how far in advance do y'all tape these shows? Ron, for living on the west coast now, is certainly in them quite a lot... And he doesn't look digitally added...For some reason they don't want to answer this question. At this point I'm guessing Ron comes home once a month or so, and they record a bunch of shows.

[tad]

We've been through this before. It's Revision 3 clone tech, not digital tech.

Good episode. I found it interesting that Ron enjoyed it so much without being familiar with the DCU. Even though some of his enjoyment came from chasing down who the characters were, if the comic didn't engage him to begin with, he wouldn't have bothered.

Back to the episode, I laughed at the closing credit stuff. Classic iFanboy interaction.

[esophagus]

Back to the episode, I laughed at the closing credit stuff. Classic iFanboy interaction.Sometimes when I can tell the episode is done, I just fastforward to the closing credits. I love them. Same goes for the opening bit.

[humphrey-lee]

Have to watch the show still, but I like taking episodes to cover this string of "classics" like you guys have. One of my fellow reviewers did something like this for a while on the AICN board, talking about a book each week, but he was more doing a dedicated effort to show that the 90's weren't all bad and covering books from that decade that shed some like on those dark dark times like KC, and Preacher, and Starman and so on. I was thinking of taking up the mantle for a bit just to talk about classic runs myself, but maybe more tackling the ones that have come and gone during "my time" with comics (which, even though I've been buying comics for 15 years or so, I don't really consider myself to have become a fan of the medium until about the year 2000).

KC though, is an odd duck for me. When I got back into comics and started reading stuff like Sandman, Transmet, Preacher and Watchmen, KC got thrust into my hands and I loved it so much, especially since I had been raised on what essentially were shitty 90's Superhero comics so it astounded me to see what someone could do with tried and true capes.

But, seven years on now from my first half dozen reads or so of the book... eh. Like, I really do appreciate the writing because it is an Epic storyline with the DC heroes, but there's a lot of, I dunno, "pandering" into to me. It's a little too loaded with fanboy love that sometimes moments that should be extremely human come off as "man, Superman is the rulzors!" (obviously disregarding the Internet lingo since it basically didn't exist back in '94).

Really though, I still think the writing is pretty much top notch, but what gets me is the thing I probably loved about it the most back then: Ross' art. Back then, I hadn't really seen art like that, and the extreme "realism" hit me very hard. And, don't get me wrong, I still enjoy a big old Alex Ross splash page or giant sized cover, but now that I've got so much comic book reading under my belt, any time I look through KC I can't help but notice, when it comes to panel to panel art "reading", Ross is a fucking horrid storyteller. His panel transitions are so stifling, and his characters so statuesque that there's absolutely no momentum between the lines, and quite frankly, as great as a nice big splash page is, the real story in ANY comic is told between the lines. Plus, after years of listening and reading Alex Ross interviews, and soaking up his attitude that he has towards the world of comics, he might be the most single-minded person towards them I've ever heard, and not in a good way. I dare say I'd rather slap him in the face than shake his hand if I ever met him, his "Interview persona" rubs me so the wrong way, as do the more rabid of his fans...

But, yeah, I think I still highly enjoy KC, because of the writing and it's nice dosage of "Fuck yeah!" moments, but I just think I've read too much better since I was first exposed to it. Back then when I had little under my belt it was easily a Top 5 ever read; now I don't know if it'd even make my top 50 if I were ever to go and make that list...

[esophagus]

I've realized, like Josh, that I was still fairly new to comics when I read this. I was still pretty fairly versed in DC, but who knows. Still, knowing DC is why I loved the redseigns. Just not sure how I feel about the story. You've convinced to pull out my copy and re-read it though.

[zombox]

Cool podcast. I'd never really thought of Kingdom Come as a commentary on 90's comics. I'd always focused on the Biblical meanings and the intense character portrayals.

[niceguyeddie]

While we don't formally take suggestions as it were, we're always ALWAYS listening and reading what people say, and it's certainly lead to shows being made. I mean, this one came from people discussing this book on the forums, and me wanting to re-read it. The fact is, we've got stacks of ideas for future shows, and we just have to sort out how and when to do them. That being said, if you've got ideas, send them to us, or post them on here. They will get read and considered.

And maybe a formal viewers choice show can happen sometime. We don't rule anything out.

I would say that we make a concerted effort to make sure people feel like they're involved in the shows, such as making sure we participate in the community discussions, or having voicemail and email shows. We also answer every email we get.

And we wouldn't shoot you down or attack you personally. I promise, we're listening.

i'd love to see some earth x stuff.
like kingdom come, ive never read this series either... this one seems particularly delved in back story and such.

ps.

consider the show a success. on my next visit to my lcs i'll be picking up the tpb.

[kahunablair]

Here's a question for people that read the series when it came out in "floppies".
Did it have a good enough ending for you without the Diner scene? I've only ever read it in TPB, and I know that scene made me love the book even more. I just can't imagine reading it without it.

Anyone?

[dave-accampo]

Here's a question for people that read the series when it came out in "floppies".
Did it have a good enough ending for you without the Diner scene? I've only ever read it in TPB, and I know that scene made me love the book even more. I just can't imagine reading it without it.

Anyone?

Well, I read it in Floppies, and then I bought the first hardcover set they released (this was pre-Absolute).

At the time, I liked the story. It was never a favorite of mine. I remember reading the epilogue and thinking: "Huh, I don't remember that scene."

So, for me -- it's a good scene, but it wasn't necessary. But also: I didn't LOVE the series. I liked it a lot, probably more for the minutiae and redesigns of the DC legacy characters than for the actual storyline. So the epilogue may not have made a difference.

[luthor]

Here's a question for people that read the series when it came out in "floppies".
Did it have a good enough ending for you without the Diner scene? I've only ever read it in TPB, and I know that scene made me love the book even more. I just can't imagine reading it without it.

Anyone?

I read it in issues and was more then happy with the last scene being Superman pulling the giant sized farm equipment thing.

[jasontodd]

I personally read KC in floppies and in the first collection, and I personally prefer the "diner ending".

I believe that the collection pre-Absolute also added the Aquaman scene, and the Darkseid scene, but I could be wrong.

[conorkilpatrick]

I personally read KC in floppies and in the first collection, and I personally prefer the "diner ending".

I believe that the collection pre-Absolute also added the Aquaman scene, and the Darkseid scene, but I could be wrong.

That's correct. There are no new scenes in the Absolute. The extras were added for the very first softcover trade paperback. In fact, the only reason why I bought the trade was because of the extra scenes and new ending.

I thought the original ending was fine, but the diner was better.

[esophagus]

Well, I read it in Floppies, and then I bought the first hardcover set they released (this was pre-Absolute).

At the time, I liked the story. It was never a favorite of mine. I remember reading the epilogue and thinking: "Huh, I don't remember that scene."

So, for me -- it's a good scene, but it wasn't necessary. But also: I didn't LOVE the series. I liked it a lot, probably more for the minutiae and redesigns of the DC legacy characters than for the actual storyline. So the epilogue may not have made a difference.The redesigns and minutiae are really all this series had for me too, but at it's core I think that's all this series was really about. At least on the Ross side. Good commentary on characters.

Never read the book without it, but personally I felt the diner scene to be the strongest scene of the book

[storm-shadow]

so is absolute KC worth the hefty price tag??

[library-guy]

When I first read Marvels and Kingdom Come they were in issue form. However, at the time I remember thinking that this was the first time I thought that these were complete stories.

Artwork was beautiful and the story was extraordinary. Even though I loved the issues, it was the first time I really said this should be a novel. Which of course they were collected into this form later. Of course these were two of the first Graphic Novels I purchase for my library's collection.

Great show gentlemen. It brought back some memories.

[jasontodd]

so is absolute KC worth the hefty price tag??

I think that if you already have the softcover, it's not worth it, but that's just my opinion.

[labor_days]

so is absolute KC worth the hefty price tag??

The answer to this is the same when asking about any Absolute edition. Absolutes are prestige formats for the the stories you really love.

Depending on the degree one enjoys Kingdom Come, one should already know the answer to such a question.

If you love it, yes. If you merely like it, no.

[sullivan85]

Anyone read the novelization of KC? I liked it because it went a little deeper into the characters and their motivations. Batman especially. I think there were "extra scenes" with him watching a movie (something he found himself able to finally relax and do) and at the end reuniting with Talia (along with the son).

Just to weigh in: I thought this was one series where the art is so fantastic it (pardon the pun) absolutely was better in Absolute format.

[horatio616]

Kingdom Come is in my personal top 20, but, if it has a weakness, it's a little too "Inside Baseball." Josh's first impression of the book is proof of that. If this book was given to a newbie, I wonder what his or her opinion of the book would be.

[horatio616]

My question is how far in advance do y'all tape these shows? Ron, for living on the west coast now, is certainly in them quite a lot... And he doesn't look digitally added...

I expected Ron to appear via some kind of Max Headroom effect, but so far I've been disappointed.

"Cup Noodle is uh-uh-uh-uh-Awesome!"

I've just really dated myself, haven't I?

[tad]

Do you guys not realize how important iFANBOY is to Revision 3? It is the foundation that all those other shows are built on. They've given iFanboy the largest transportation budget of any of the shows.

Hey, I like Ron, Josh and Conor but when it comes to their show, it's widely known in the business that they're real primadonnas. To snag iFanboy, Revision 3 had to agree to fly them anywhere in the world to video their show each week. That green living room is a portable set that has logged more international miles than the entire CNN correspondents core. Josh gets a hankerin' for spumoni? It's off to Italy where the set was constructed in the shadow of the Coliseum. Conor routinely has the show go to Hawaii so he can hang out on the Lost set. And Ron? It's all about Mardi Gras. In Rio.

Watch this week's video show closely and you'll see a couple of random beads from their necklaces on the coffee table. Ron still has feathers in his hair from the run in with the chorus girls.

But in person they're really nice.

[horatio616]

Nitpicking here, but Magog is pronounced "MAY-gog" and not "muh-GOG" as the guys say in the "Kingdom Come" video podcast.

[jaflanagan]

Nitpicking here, but Magog is pronounced "MAY-gog" and not "muh-GOG" as the guys say in the "Kingdom Come" video podcast.

How do you know that?

[labor_days]

Actually, Horatio is right. It is pronounced "May-gog" not "MAH-gog".

I have the Kingdom Come audiobook and it is pronounced as "May-gog" throughout and the pronunciation keys for the Hebrew/Islamic translations also suggest this to be true.

[esophagus]

Huh. I've always said Mah-Gog. Learn something new everyday.

[jaflanagan]

Taking the world of comics, from the characters to the creators, from a written realm to a spoken one, is rife with the possibility for error.

[conorkilpatrick]

He's going to be Muh-gog to me, forever. Sorry.

[labor_days]

Here's a link to a ten second audio clip of Wonder Woman telling Superman Magog blew up Kansas: link (http://www.divshare.com/download/3732005-979).

Take from that what you will.

Nobody is going to call the grammar cops on you for saying MAH-gog. :D

[conorkilpatrick]

Here's a link to a ten second audio clip of Wonder Woman telling Superman Magog blew up Kansas: link (http://www.divshare.com/download/3732005-979).

Take from that what you will.

That was some world class voice acting.

[labor_days]

That was some world class voice acting.

You should hear the Spectre. Sounds like he's speaking with a Vox.


Also Josh, Magog is not from the world of comics. The name has been around for centuries. Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog).

Again, for whatever you wish to take from that.


edit: Dictionary Pronunciation: Link (http://www.bartleby.com/61/68/G0176850.html). MAH-Gog is flat out wrong.

[gungadin]

May-gog sounds hokey. Muh-gog sounds menacing. And that's where I stand.

[luthor]

I think this whole pronunciation argument is akin to continuity. Just make your own.

[jimski]

That was some world class voice acting.

Anyone who wants to take their cues on pronunciation from voice actors has never heard the Superfriends say "mxyzptlyk."

[gungadin]

Anyone who wants to take their cues on pronunciation from voice actors has never heard the Superfriends say "mxyzptlyk."

You baited me. How do they say it?

[kahunablair]

They pronounced it "Timmy".

[jimski]

They pronounced it "Timmy".

Almost! For most of my life, based on the way they said it on TV, I thought his name was "Mixelplicked." Now that I know better, I can't imagine what they were thinking; clearly, they didn't give it a whole lot of thought at all. I mean, I don't expect everyone working on a kid's cartoon show in the seventies to be Geoff Johns, but the letters aren't even in that order.

[jaflanagan]

The most recent animated series pronounced it "mit shish pit lick" which is how I say it.

As often as that comes up.

[labor_days]

I think this whole pronunciation argument is akin to continuity. Just make your own.

Sorta like those who say "Mag-NEE-two" and those that say, "Mag-NET-O". :D

Seriously, guys, Magog is an ancient name. Waid/Ross didn't just make it up for the comic book. They chose the name for the religious symbolism it had, I would imagine. All the dictionary pronunciations I could find pronounce it "May-gog". The pronunciation keys stress the "May"/"Mey" in the name.

Audiobook aside; link (http://www.yourdictionary.com/magog), link (http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/gog_and_magog.htm#top), link (http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/gog_and_magog.htm#top), link (http://www.answers.com/topic/gog-and-magog), link (http://www.betterdaysarecoming.com/bible/pronunciation.html), link (http://books.google.com/books?id=iWM2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=magog+pronunciation&source=web&ots=p58dRzc3Ub&sig=1lXmeI6P8LZM0SZUGNVJKaMpzlk)

[itsbecca]

Sorta like those who say "Mag-NEE-two" and those that say, "Mag-NET-O". :D

Seriously, guys, Magog is an ancient name. Waid/Ross didn't just make it up for the comic book. They chose the name for the religious symbolism it had, I would imagine. All the dictionary pronunciations I could find pronounce it "May-gog". The pronunciation keys stress the "May"/"Mey" in the name.

Audiobook aside; link (http://www.yourdictionary.com/magog), link (http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/gog_and_magog.htm#top), link (http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/gog_and_magog.htm#top), link (http://www.answers.com/topic/gog-and-magog), link (http://www.betterdaysarecoming.com/bible/pronunciation.html), link (http://books.google.com/books?id=iWM2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=magog+pronunciation&source=web&ots=p58dRzc3Ub&sig=1lXmeI6P8LZM0SZUGNVJKaMpzlk)

Seeing as there's precedence for comics using and modifying historical names I really don't see this as a be all end all argument.

Also, that clip makes me really hopeful about breaking into the voice acting industry...

[esophagus]

As often as that comes up.
Luckily it has never come up for me, because I have noooo idea how to say it.

[gungadin]

I say "Mits-yets-pit-lick." :)

Timmy? :eek:

[esophagus]

I think I probably say it closer to the Superfriends way. It's where I've heard it out loud most. I know it looks wrong, it's just stuck in my head. I might switch to Timmy though.