PS3 install, and DMC4 "issues" disscussed on lateset Episode

[dfs-vegas]

The guys expressed their issues with the popular trend of PS3 games needing (or most times, offering) an install. They specifically expressed their concerns with this weeks game review of Devil May Cry 4... So I thought I'd throw out my knowledge (however limited it may be) on the subject...

1. They mentioned that they weren't sure if they're was a discernible difference between the Xbox 360 version (no install) and the PS3 version (install). There is, in fact, a difference. It's been reported that the average PS3 loading time is 1-2 seconds, while the Xbox 360 version averages anywhere from 3-10 seconds. I'm not sure how accurate this info is, but it's the general consensus around the internet, after some sleuthing (googling). (**EDIT** Never mind, DarthEnder shat all over this theory... Google, you've failed me again).

2. Another problem they brought up was the fact that a lot of PS3 games either need installing, or at least recommend it. Well, this is due to one major factor. The PS3 Blu-Ray drive only runs at 2x speed. It's the same reason Blu-Ray movies take more time than DVD's to load up on the PS3. So, for obvious reasons, it's better to have the Data loading off the HDD, then off a slow optical drive.

Anyway, just thought I'd spew my non-sense... If I'm wrong, please feel free to shmack me with your knowledge-sack...

[darthender]

1. They mentioned that they weren't sure if they're was a discernible difference between the Xbox 360 version (no install) and the PS3 version (install). There is, in fact, a difference. It's been reported that the average PS3 loading time is 1-2 seconds, while the Xbox 360 version averages anywhere from 3-10 seconds. I'm not sure how accurate this info is, but it's the general consensus around the internet, after some sleuthing (googling).Not correct at all. I've never had a load time on the 360 version that was longer than 3 seconds.

The load screen is just as long on the PS3 version, but what they don't tell you is you can push a button and just skip the load screen.

[dfs-vegas]

Not correct at all. I've never had a load time on the 360 version that was longer than 3 seconds.

The load screen is just as long on the PS3 version, but what they don't tell you is you can push a button and just skip the load screen.
Well then, I stand corrected...

[jackal888]

I have noticed small installs on some PS3 titles, I also notice some games give option to load more of the game eliminating load screens.

Capcom is unique because they are using a development platform that supposedly makes creating games for Xbox 360 and PS3 simultaneously. DMC4 is the first game to test this new Capcom MT (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16611) development software. I truly believe it is because of the developer the game needs to install on the PS3.

[neverendingwhitelights]

I think they should have warned the user about it, with a little message saying like, "This game needs to install some files to your hard drive. Estimated time of install: 20 minutes." Then people could have been like, alright cool, I'm gonna go surf the net, or eat some dinner, whatever.

If it wasn't necessary for them to do that, then an option should have been given, complete with the aforementioned estimate on how long it would take.

That's how I'd have handled it.

Or one other option could have been to create a small level with a neverending supply of enemies, and you get to play with any character you like, as it's installing, with all their powers and weapons and things. Then, depending on how many you kill it could give you some red orbs / proud souls you can start a new game with. Just to let everyone get a taste of what's coming if they'd like.

[jackal888]

So unneccessary

[arcticfox]

Jeff what you were wondering about why the PS3 needs to install, its basically to do with Blu-Ray transfer rates.

At its fastest speed the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3 reads discs at 9Mb/s (2x), the Xbox 360 DVD drive reads at 16Mb/s (12x), the Xbox 360 can afford to read the 7-8Gb dual layer dvds at 16Mb/s so streaming data from the disc doesnt really affect performance and is more than adequate.

The PS3 Blu-Ray drive however has to read anywhere from 10-50Gb of data (games dont always fill up a 25Gb Single Layer disc) when you compare to Xbox 360 the PS3 reading data at nearly half the speed presents a lot of problems.

A few ways they get round this is what they did with the PS3 version of Elder Scrolls: Oblivion and im guessing a few other games, is data redundancy, they use the extra space they arent filling on the Blu-Ray disc to put multiple chunks of most used data in several points around the disc so the laser doesnt have to keep travelling backwards and forwards too far.

Another way is installing the data to the HDD, thanks to Sony including HDDs in every PS3 developers have the option to do this, is it right? probably not but at least you dont have to suffer extremely extended load times compared to the Xbox 360 versions of the game.

Hope this helped.

[dreaded-gazebo]

Yeah, the bluray read speed is the biggest issue. Unfortunately I think this is just a matter of laziness on the developers. Sony's first party games like Rathet & Clank and Uncharted have no install and virtually no load times. Third party games like Oblivion, Burnout and Call of Duty 4 manage to provide identical experiences on each system without load times. To me that says Capcom simply did a very lazy port to the PS3 and rather than work to the system's strengths and weaknesses they just took the quick route and installed to the hard drive.

[hbd]

Just to confirm what others have already said, from what I understand the PS3 installs it's games because the read speed on Blu-Ray is a lot slower than DVD/HD-DVD. So if, for example, DMC4 didn't load itself on the HDD, the load times would be 10-15 seconds (I'm guessing here), compared to the 1-2 seconds (or whatever it is, I don't actually own a PS3 or DMC4 :D) it is after installing.

[masterplayer]

I read that the load times are very significant from IGN. They actually recommended the PS3 version over the 360 version. I really hope that this isn't a recurring trend since I only have a 40 GB PS3, and 7 games with 5 GB install would leave me with no HD space. Not to mention I need space for demos, downloads, saves, movies, music, etc.

[iccanui]

One question poped in my head. Can you play it without the disc ?

If so then yes, installing dmc4 on the ps3 is superior to the xbox.

Also on a related note, my understanding is you have the choice to install on the HD or run from disc. If so im failing to see the complaint.

[eddielee]

One question poped in my head. Can you play it without the disc ?

If so then yes, installing dmc4 on the ps3 is superior to the xbox.

Also on a related note, my understanding is you have the choice to install on the HD or run from disc. If so im failing to see the complaint.

You still need the disc even after installing. And there is no "choice".. i don't know what you're talking about.

[iccanui]

I don't know either bro. I'm just reading what's posted on the intertubes. They say option to install or run from disc and option to not use cd once installed.

Wether its right or not...... You know them intertubes.

[MaxTheSilent]

Further proof (if any was needed) that the PS3 is all about putting Blu-Ray into homes, with gaming quality and convenience being a very distant second.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5fc81Mw0Y4E&feature=related

[kichigaimentat]

I've always heard the installation thing was to reduce load times. Has anyone taken a game with an optional install and compare load times between the Cache'd and Uncache'd versions of the game?

As far as what DMC4's got going on, compared to the 360 version, do we have any clue as to the size differences between the PS3 and 360 version? There's no reason to not consider that Capcom crammed more data onto the PS3 or 360 version, making the load times difficult to compare since one is pulling more data through the tubes? BluRay does have a higher capacity, perhaps Capcom took advantage of that (not quite sure why, or where, or how, or anything like that).

[royterp]

I don't think this will add much to the discussion, but here's Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/02/06)'s take on the subject, in case anyone missed it:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2008/20080206.jpg

[iccanui]

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/839

[nobodysleeps]

I don't think this will add much to the discussion, but here's Penny Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/02/06)'s take on the subject, in case anyone missed it:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2008/20080206.jpg

who would put their xbox on top of their ps3 like that? They're both giant,awkward, fumbling heat furnaces for one, and the PS3 is curved on the top....

Oh for the sake of making something fit well on a comic panel.

[damnedeyez]

who would put their xbox on top of their ps3 like that? They're both giant,awkward, fumbling heat furnaces for one, and the PS3 is curved on the top....

Oh for the sake of making something fit well on a comic panel.

Considering all of the ads I've seen have both consoles standing on end, and there's nothing in the comic that shows any height limitation, it's even more perplexing.

[sirurza]

One more thing to say about the difference between the systems. Aside from the state speed different between the Blue Ray drive and DVD drives (dvds being faster) the PS3 and 360 handle memory completely diffferent.

The PS3 divides it's memory in half; one half for video, one half for data. The 360 doesn't have this divide, developers can use all of the 360's RAM however they want, thus, on the 360, a game can prebuffer data that isn't needed yet while a PS3 can't.

[gamerholic]

I own a PS3 and I am yet to come across game intalls like DMC4

[MaxTheSilent]

I own a PS3 and I am yet to come across game intalls like DMC4

May I ask, in what way do you mean?

Do you mean in sheer length of time to install, or the fact that the games you've played don't need to be installed.

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't own a PS3 and am genuinely interested.

[mormonrage]

There are very few that require an install. CoD4, for example, doesn't require it and doesn't suffer from loading times that are any different than the 360 version. It's a developer issue, not a platform issue, near as I can tell.

[damnedeyez]

Based on the load time, Assassin's Creed installed something...but it's the only one I've noticed as such. Any others I've played that installed anything beyond setting up save data, I couldn't say.

[nobodysleeps]

May I ask, in what way do you mean?

Do you mean in sheer length of time to install, or the fact that the games you've played don't need to be installed.

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't own a PS3 and am genuinely interested.

Downloaded games and demos require installs. Every PS3 game I own has no installs. DMC4 seems to be the first.

PS2 had the option where you could install games. It made pirating games easy and it made load times lightning fast. Only japan had the install option, like Final Fantasy X did.

Folklore for PS3 has an optional install, which will make the game run faster, but that's only if you choose to install it.

[karlcarlson3]

Downloaded games and demos require installs. Every PS3 game I own has no installs. DMC4 seems to be the first.

PS2 had the option where you could install games. It made pirating games easy and it made load times lightning fast. Only japan had the install option, like Final Fantasy X did.

Folklore for PS3 has an optional install, which will make the game run faster, but that's only if you choose to install it.
A few other games have optional installs as well, Unreal Tournament III and Ninja Gaiden Sigma both have it. Also, I've heard (I don't own it) Oblivion has some sort of install. As for mandatory installs, Hot Shots Golf 5 may possibly have one just as long as DMC4's.

After using the 360 so much before getting a PS3, the installs for demos and PSN games are really annoying...

[jiffysquid]

The issue is partly due to the slow Blu-Ray drive but largley down to the developer, it would appear DMC has loads of tiny files spread all across the disc that need to be installed, the BR drive has to seek and read all of these files, the files near the centre of the disk will read slower than those near the outside (if it is using CAV) if it is using CLV the seek times are higher which leads to slower installs.

if they had pak files around the outside of the disk and decompressed them as they read them install times would have been reduced. the issue of the slow install times would have arisen too late in test to be able to change (all those linked files and dependencies).

it sounds like they have done it again with lost planet... maybe next time they will get it right......

i will be playing it on the 360 anyway (i need the points!)

[mormonrage]

it sounds like they have done it again with lost planet... maybe next time they will get it right......

Nope--there are more coming. Supposedly Hot Shots Golf inexplicably requires a big install as well.

[damnedeyez]

I'm thinking I'll just avoid Capcom games unless this changes (or somethings comes out I just have to have).

It's not like I don't have the space, but that's just sloppy.

[dolson]

OK, I know this thread is old, but Alex did mention briefly Haze's install.

I had been thinking - it doesn't make much sense to me, ESPECIALLY with multi-platform games like DMC4 and such, as to why we have to install 4GB+ to the hard drive.

If Blu-ray is so slow, why didn't they just put the game onto a DVD9 like the 360 version? Does the drive in the PS3 not read regular DVDs as fast as the 360 too? I was under the impression that the CLV was only used for Blu-ray discs. Wouldn't it be cheaper if developers released games on regular DVD9 discs when they aren't taking advantage of the Blu-ray capacity? Or is this something Sony is preventing (which would be kinda stupid, since it would save publishers money, but understandable too, since it would encourage devs to use the space)?

Either way, installing the full size of a DVD or half a DVD9 doesn't make much sense to me, especially since we still need the disc in the drive. A multiplatform game like DMC4 must only be the size of a DVD9 at the most, right? So PS3 owners have to install half the game to the hard drive. Just doesn't make sense.

I mention this after reading Capcom's blog post saying "At least we aren’t making you shuffle multiple discs into a ROM drive" which would be a valid point, except I had the impression that the 360 version was only one DVD9 disc. Am I wrong about that? If I'm right, then Capcom's excuse is fail.

Running out of space isn't that big an issue for me. It's a minor annoyance. But sitting through a long install is definitely annoying, especially since, with more and more games requiring it, it's not like you only do it once. If you're like me and you jump around alot between various games, you're going to be deleting data, then reinstalling it later, then deleting it, etc. and each time you do, you have to wait.

Oblivion GOTY's install is so far the largest, at 5.7GB. However! You don't even notice it installing, since it's done in the background. If we need to have mandatory installs, THAT'S the way to do it. It wouldn't be such a big deal to delete some data to make room if there wasn't a 10-20-minute install to sit through.

Besides this, I think every install should be optional, or very minimal. 1GB or less data installs would be fine by me, but 4GB+ is kind of obnoxious. Especially when the game itself is only maybe 8.5GB max.

I don't hate my PS3 because of it. It's the developers who are lazy... Capcom's alternative is to just stop making PS3 games, so I guess there isn't much of a choice when they start bringing out games I actually care about (RE5).

I also wouldn't mind so much if installing data eliminated load times entirely, such as was the case with Haze. It only loaded if you died and had to restart from the last checkpoint.

However, Naughty Dog managed to avoid installing ANY data at all, and still allow you to play straight through the game with no (or at least masked) loading times.

Ninja Gaiden Sigma is an example of a game with an optional install that doesn't even seem to make a difference whatsoever... You will see loading screens when you're in one room, if you move from one side of the room to the other, regardless of if you have done the install or not. That's just silly.

Anyhow, yeah... Haze + Alex made me dig this up... It's an annoyance, but can have benefits.

[fashiondr]

What he doesn't seem to realize is that if the 360 didn't take a step backwards and instead came out with a hard-drive as standard (much like the original x-box did), then they would be able to have installs as well. But it's Microsoft's insistence that developers create games that can be played by people who are buying the core, hard-drive free system that is holding them back. I'm sure if developers were allowed to come out with optional installs for 360 games, players would rather install some data if it led to a smoother, streaming gaming experience.

The truth is that nowadays consoles are just funny looking computers, and you never hear anyone complain about having to install a game on their PC. Seeing as how we can wait years for games to be released, I don't think waiting another 10-20 minutes is a problem.

[stubadub]

What he doesn't seem to realize is that if the 360 didn't take a step backwards and instead came out with a hard-drive as standard (much like the original x-box did), then they would be able to have installs as well. But it's Microsoft's insistence that developers create games that can be played by people who are buying the core, hard-drive free system that is holding them back. I'm sure if developers were allowed to come out with optional installs for 360 games, players would rather install some data if it led to a smoother, streaming gaming experience.

The truth is that nowadays consoles are just funny looking computers, and you never hear anyone complain about having to install a game on their PC. Seeing as how we can wait years for games to be released, I don't think waiting another 10-20 minutes is a problem.

I haven't really encountered anything where I felt like the 360 needed such an installation. Consoles are essentially a computer, but most people do not view them as such. What works on a PC does not always work on a console and vice versa. The expectation is that once you put a game into your machine you can be playing within one minute. I don't know that developers would be anxious to take on this paradigm if it wasn't a necessity. However, if I was given an option to do such an installation I would shift my expectations and always opt-in for the install.

[siraim]

What he doesn't seem to realize is that if the 360 didn't take a step backwards and instead came out with a hard-drive as standard (much like the original x-box did), then they would be able to have installs as well. But it's Microsoft's insistence that developers create games that can be played by people who are buying the core, hard-drive free system that is holding them back. I'm sure if developers were allowed to come out with optional installs for 360 games, players would rather install some data if it led to a smoother, streaming gaming experience.

The truth is that nowadays consoles are just funny looking computers, and you never hear anyone complain about having to install a game on their PC. Seeing as how we can wait years for games to be released, I don't think waiting another 10-20 minutes is a problem.

It's an experience changing event. Consoles have always been the home of pickup and go gaming. Pop in the cart or the CD and off you go. I fully accept that my PC game will take some time to install. I fully understand that I will have a gargantuan update to download from Blizzard every so often. I don't quite accept that for console games.

One of the universally panned elements of Mass Effect was the miserably slow elevator sequences designed to mask the "loading" screens between world sections. If they weren't terminably boring, I would have forgiven them myself. I can forgive loading screens in game between gameplay elements. I'm used to that. I'm not used to a 20-30 minute download to play a game on my console.

Same goes for downloadable content. On the 360, I download the demo and I play it as soon as it is downloaded. On the PS3, I download.. install... then play. It's just an extra step that I don't need to see. If the 360 installs something in the background or uncrunches an archive file before I play, so be it..

[darknessgp]

I would really have no problem with the install stuff, if it was done in the background.
Like demos and PSN stuff, after it's downloaded it should start installing itself in the background (Personally Sony seems to have a problem with not doing things in the background, like file copying, installing, etc.). I don't care if I can't play it until it is installed, but don't make me be the one that HAS to initiate the installation. As for games, they could implement it in a way that it installs while you play. Having a big install upfront, IMO is the worst way to do it when there is a much better way... My most annoying thing has been GTA IV. It installs, and then every time you boot up the game you have to sit through these pictures, and then it hits a loading screen... I think it is the same issue with game makers not giving me the option to skip cut scenes, they just don't get it. It's not that I don't want to watch the cut scene, but in games like Assassin's Creed where I was replaying missions because I'd make a wrong turn and fail, it gets highly annoying to be forced to sit through the same scene over and over.

[rockstardon]

I would really have no problem with the install stuff, if it was done in the background.
Like demos and PSN stuff, after it's downloaded it should start installing itself in the background (Personally Sony seems to have a problem with not doing thinds in the background, like file copying, installing, etc.). I don't care if I can't play it until it is installed, but don't make me be the one that HAS to initiate the installation. As for games, they could implement it in a way that it installs while you play. Having a big install upfront, IMO is the worst way to do it when there is a much better way... My most annoying thing has been GTA IV. It installs, and then every time you boot up the game you have to sit through these pictures, and then it hits a loading screen... I think it is the same issue with game makers not giving me the option to skip cut scenes, they just don't get it. It's not that I don't want to watch the cut scene, but in games like Assassin's Creed where I was replaying missions because I'd make a wrong turn and fail, it gets highly annoying to be forced to sit through the same scene over and over.

I agree, background loading and installing should be used more. I do understand why the make you install a game(if you know what happend to the PSP) but they should hive it in the background so you can watch a video or listen to som music while it installs.

[fashiondr]

I agree, background loading and installing should be used more. I do understand why the make you install a game(if you know what happend to the PSP) but they should hive it in the background so you can watch a video or listen to som music while it installs.

I also agree with this, at least when I install something on my PC I can surf the net or listen to some tunes while it installs (yes I could also read the manual or play some DS while installing on my PS3, but that's not the point). However, I will still install any game that gives me the choice if it will enhance my experience, I can get very impatient waiting for games to load, especially if it's after I've just died and I'm already pissed off.

But I do think people need to realize that consoles have changed. We're not playing on cartridges anymore, games are far more complex nowadays and need a constant stream of data to run smoothly. You want to plug and play? Get a Wii...

[dolson]

I also agree with this, at least when I install something on my PC I can surf the net or listen to some tunes while it installs (yes I could also read the manual or play some DS while installing on my PS3, but that's not the point). However, I will still install any game that gives me the choice if it will enhance my experience, I can get very impatient waiting for games to load, especially if it's after I've just died and I'm already pissed off.

But I do think people need to realize that consoles have changed. We're not playing on cartridges anymore, games are far more complex nowadays and need a constant stream of data to run smoothly. You want to plug and play? Get a Wii...

OK, I would understand and agree with you, but how do you explain the other games that don't require installs, and have zero loading times? Such as, Uncharted? I still say devs are lazy.

[siraim]

OK, I would understand and agree with you, but how do you explain the other games that don't require installs, and have zero loading times? Such as, Uncharted? I still say devs are lazy.

I agree.. and dismissing gamers that want plug and play as dinosaurs that can't accept change is missing the point. Creative developers have found all sorts of interesting ways to make "seamless" worlds that dont' involve long loading screens. Tunnels leading from one section to another.. preloading as you play through the game.

[rockstardon]

OK, I would understand and agree with you, but how do you explain the other games that don't require installs, and have zero loading times? Such as, Uncharted? I still say devs are lazy.

Thats also true, because most of the multi-platform games have a larger install size.

Ex:
GTA4(multi-platform and a large install size)
DMC4(also multi-platform and a really big install size)

Uncharted(nothing to install)
Resistance(Very small install; a patch really)

Not a lot to work with here because the install for Hevenly Sword was 2GB.:(

[fashiondr]

OK, I would understand and agree with you, but how do you explain the other games that don't require installs, and have zero loading times? Such as, Uncharted? I still say devs are lazy.

Most definitely, and I wouldn't want to see this become a cop out for laze developers (I'm looking at you Capcom...). But I see this as another option for developers to use to ensure the best possible gaming experience, and if that is what it delivers, I don't see the problem with waiting a few minutes, just like I don't mind waiting a few months so devs can iron out the creases in an upcoming title rather than rushing it to market.

Of course, we have to put our faith in the developers that they are using installs effectively, and not just as a means to make their lives easier...

[dolson]

I plan to get Fallout 3, and so should anyone who liked the old games and/or Oblivion, since this is a melding of the two, it seems.

Looks like Bethesda is doing the Oblivion data-install thing with it too, which is the closest thing to not having an install:
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/05/28/fallout-3-just-says-no-to-mandatory-install-on-ps3/


Also, have a view at this if you haven't seen it before... I lol'd.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7944224511882477313

Luckily, none of my PSP or PS3 games are like that.. Haha.

[fashiondr]

Also, have a view at this if you haven't seen it before... I lol'd.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7944224511882477313

Luckily, none of my PSP or PS3 games are like that.. Haha.

Wow! That was pretty bad, but this one is worse...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=naVshTpD9l0

Installs FTW!

[gonzooo]

Installs FTW!
Yes, because all the other games that are played off CD/DVD are exactly like these examples. Do you believe for one second either of these games had been good with installs? Even the damn amount of load sessions for the Sonic game would've been terrible with a HDD.

[darknessgp]

I plan to get Fallout 3, and so should anyone who liked the old games and/or Oblivion, since this is a melding of the two, it seems.

Looks like Bethesda is doing the Oblivion data-install thing with it too, which is the closest thing to not having an install:
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/05/28/fallout-3-just-says-no-to-mandatory-install-on-ps3/

...

I'm really glad to hear that. Bethesda gets their customers, now if only they could somehow convince all the other developers that it is the correct way to do it.