Hotel Fee Article...

[crumbles]

So, I was reading this article (http://fodors.com/news/story_2921.html) on digg about Hotel Fees, and how to "always watch your bill" for fees that you should ask to remove.

There were several examples, but to make my point faster, I'll just stick with one:

----
Safe
Hotels are tacking $1-$3 dollar a night "Safe Warranty" fees onto bills to cover the cost of providing the safe and the insurance policy that covers the things stored in it. (Good luck collecting anything if that in-room safe is burgled though, as most hotels post signs disclaiming responsibility for valuables.)
----

They recommend that you ask for that fee to be removed if you don't use the safe. People are all up in arms about how Hotel's do this and are in shock that they have to pay for these items that they never use.

So, let me get this straight. You check in said Hotel, and get upset that they are asking you to pay a safe fee for a safe that you never used?

On a highly left wing site such as digg, I don't understand the mentality here. How is that different than universal healthcare or anything else that the Lefties want to push on the rest of us? The only difference with the government, is if you don't do it, you go to jail.

So, digg lefties, why does this upset you, but you're OK when the government does it?

:confused:

[tokenuser]

I actually use the safe if its provided (for my passport and camera gear normally if its not needed), so I don't object.

[crumbles]

I actually use the safe if its provided (for my passport and camera gear normally if its not needed), so I don't object.I think you severely missed the point. I'm sure there is something in that article that you are paying for me to use, that you don't use.

I guess I'm just seriously trying to understand the lefty mind. For example, Kevin is voting for Obama. Someone who wants to raise taxes. He is literally voting for someone who wants to cash in on his success.

Do the dems:

1) not care
2) don't believe it
3) feel as though they don't deserve their money

I'm being serious. I'm really trying to understand the logic here.

I have a close friend who just got out of college (big time liberal,) and he just landed his first job making pretty good money. He called me asking about how much taxes "should" be taking out of his paycheck. I laughed and said: "You mean before or after a Democrat becomes President?"

I just don't understand it. He goes to a great college, works really hard, and the first thing he does is vote to have the government take away more of his money.

[phatlip12]

I think you severely missed the point. I'm sure there is something in that article that you are paying for me to use, that you don't use.

I guess I'm just seriously trying to understand the lefty mind. For example, Kevin is voting for Obama. Someone who wants to raise taxes. He is literally voting for someone who wants to cash in on his success.

Do the dems:

1) not care
2) don't believe it
3) feel as though they don't deserve their money

I'm being serious. I'm really trying to understand the logic here.

I have a close friend who just got out of college (big time liberal,) and he just landed his first job making pretty good money. He called me asking about how much taxes "should" be taking out of his paycheck. I laughed and said: "You mean before or after a Democrat becomes President?"

I just don't understand it. He goes to a great college, works really hard, and the first thing he does is vote to have the government take away more of his money.

Or...

We have no problem spending our money on something we feel is worth while. Taxes are a part of life, I learned to except this already. If you want something you have to pay for it. The same applies with taxes. You and I just have different ideas on what that money should be spent on. I think the government should do more and you think they should do less. You get less if you pay less. You want more you pay more.

*Actually, I want more in some areas and less government in others. I'm a registered independent by the way. ;)

[bani_banan]

I think you severely missed the point. I'm sure there is something in that article that you are paying for me to use, that you don't use.

I guess I'm just seriously trying to understand the lefty mind. For example, Kevin is voting for Obama. Someone who wants to raise taxes. He is literally voting for someone who wants to cash in on his success.

Do the dems:

1) not care
2) don't believe it
3) feel as though they don't deserve their money

I'm being serious. I'm really trying to understand the logic here.

I have a close friend who just got out of college (big time liberal,) and he just landed his first job making pretty good money. He called me asking about how much taxes "should" be taking out of his paycheck. I laughed and said: "You mean before or after a Democrat becomes President?"

I just don't understand it. He goes to a great college, works really hard, and the first thing he does is vote to have the government take away more of his money.

Here in Sweden, we pay aprox. 51% tax out of what we earn (If you have your own company). If you work at a company it's around 35%. Can you believe it?
What does that money do? Universal healthcare that guarantees that the sick people get the help that they need. My mother has two tumours. She has to surgically remove them. We couldn't possibly afford to pay the bills if it weren't for universal healthcare.
My dad had 4 heart attacks, 1 stroke. How could we afford to pay for that if it weren't for universal healthcare? I'll gladly pay more tax knowing that it could save a persons life. [I currently work as a nurse paying for school. Wanting to become a paramedic]

From our perspective, Americans are spoiled.
No need for an explanation. You expect everything to come when you need it, but you don't expect to give back. That's at least that image that you give to the world.

Our tax pays:
Schools (School is free in Sweden, grade school, high-school, college, university)
Food for the kids that go to school (only grade school and high-school)
Healthcare
Road maintenance
Prison
Police and everything else that's suppose to make our country safe.

[crumbles]

We have no problem spending our money on something we feel is worth while.I have no problem spending my money on something that is worth while either. The point your missing is this isn't spending my money on something worth while. This is the government forcing me to hand it over or else.

Taxes are a part of life, I learned to except [sic] this already. If you want something you have to pay for it. The same applies with taxes. You and I just have different ideas on what that money should be spent on. I think the government should do more and you think they should do less. You get less if you pay less. You want more you pay more.So then do you other liberals agree with this statement? You want the government to take care of you and tell you what you need to do? Is it a general "I don't want to take any responsibility" type thing?

[phatlip12]

I have no problem spending my money on something that is worth while either. The point your missing is this isn't spending my money on something worth while. This is the government forcing me to hand it over or else.

Ok, but thats not how it works. If it's something you want the government to do thats going to cost money taxes are involved.


So then do you other liberals agree with this statement? You want the government to take care of you and tell you what you need to do? Is it a general "I don't want to take any responsibility" type thing?

Thats not what I said and I am responsible. I just don't believe in the "sink or swim" philosophy. There are those that do need a helping hand from the government sometimes.

[crumbles]

Thats not what I said and I am responsible.So, you want the government to take care of you, but you are still responsible for yourself? I really am just trying to get a clear answer, that's all. Not trying to start a fight. Just want to know what it is exactly the Democrats think.

[phatlip12]

So, you want the government to take care of you, but you are still responsible for yourself? I really am just trying to get a clear answer, that's all. Not trying to start a fight. Just want to know what it is exactly the Democrats think.

Again, I never said I wanted the government to take care of me. There ARE people that need help though.

[crumbles]

Again, I never said I wanted the government to take care of me.Then what did you mean by:

I think the government should do more...

[phatlip12]

Then what did you mean by:

Democrats= big government

Conservatives= limited government

I was just stating we have different ideas on government as a whole.

[autodas]

For libs, refer to my sig. I always see them complaining for other people and doing nothing about it except steal other people's hard earned money. The tax system we have is wrong.

[crumbles]

Democrats= big governmentRight... but what do you mean "do more." I can only assume you are talking about "do more for the people" which makes it confusing why you just said that isn't what you are talking about.

So, would you be one of the people that would be OK that a Hotel charges you for things that you don't use in order to pay for them for other people?

[crumbles]

For libs, refer to my sig. I always see them complaining for other people and doing nothing about it except steal other people's hard earned money. The tax system we have is wrong.I'm seriously not trying to start a "DEMOCRATS ARE WRONG!" thread, I'm really just trying to understand exactly what they want and why.

[phatlip12]

Right... but what do you mean "do more." I can only assume you are talking about "do more for the people" which makes it confusing why you just said that isn't what you are talking about.

So, would you be one of the people that would be OK that a Hotel charges you for things that you don't use in order to pay for them for other people?

You're reading into this way to much. I was just stating the difference between democrats wanting larger government and conservatives limited.

[comhcinc]

So, digg lefties, why does this upset you, but you're OK when the government does it?

i'm not on digg but i guess i am a "leftie".

i'm not okay when government wasting money on things that do not benefit the general welfare. on the other hand i do understand that having health care and education available to everyone makes this great country even better.

what i am always wondering about "righties" is why they fail to see how the system benefited them and how a healthier smarter population also benefits them.

[ariastar]

There's a BIG difference between a hotel safe and health care. One really isn't an option when it comes to staying alive. You can't opt out of health care unless you want to die. What hotels are doing with this is crooked. You have no protection with those safes in the case of theft, yet are charged an insurance fee anyway. I'm sure if this went to court the hotels would lose. With universal, you pay and will get care.

[samureye]

Matt, Craig and Kyle - start a podcast, please, so I can listen to your guys instead of read 10 pages on why Crumbles is wrong.

[autodas]

crumbles, "lefties" have a fear driven motive of the free-market. They are so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight for it and not themselves. They have their hearts in the right place, but good about it in wrong selfless ways that do not work. They typically use double standards. Why is spamming every frontpage of Digg with pro-Obama filler when posting the same amount but better quality of stories about Ron Paul is considered spam? How come they aren't giving up their cable bill and giving it to Afrika? Why force the citizens to pay government programs, but don't have the choice of the free-market to produce a monopoly? They say they're against trusts and big businesses yet they hand them patents and obey their copyright claims and are bewildered when a company uses the power they have. They are clones of one another's feelings. They think everyone, no matter what their disposition, should have more than equal opportunity -- they want to force equal outcomes. By stealing from the wealthy they are proving to be lazy parasites of capitalism. They threaten the very core of liberty.

[ariastar]

Crumbles, certain things are necessities to life. Health care, food, shelter. Entertainment and electronics are luxuries. The necessities to life should not be an exclusive right to the rich, things only affordable to the rich. Our society needs workers from the minimum-wage, non-English-speaking janitors (no discrimination, but most are Mexican, just an observation), on up to the bosses. When the low workers and middle-class workers get too sick to work, everyone pays. Prices are set as they are to compensate for the overtime hours of other workers to sell items. We're taxed so anyone can go to an ER. Yet it costs less to get preventative care, but insurance in too expensive for most people, and not all places of employment offer coverage.

Look, we're paying either way, but it is more COST EFFICIENT to have universal coverage so someone can get an asthma inhaler at early signs than it would e to treat that person in an ER each time it is an emergency.

Do you understand how we pay for this? If emergency care is too expensive for someone to pay, or they choose not to (tell me why I should have struggled to pay part of a $1.5mill ER hospital bill when I know it'll be written off and go against my credit anyway), then the hospital will write it off on taxes, pay less in taxes, and we all have to cover what they don't pay. The lesser of two evils is universal, if you consider someone's basic right to medical care, meaning life, to be an evil.

You have a child, right? Do you want to make this a world where your baby has to grow up to one day decide between food and life-saving medical care? Or do you want to know that your child will be okay? Just because you are fine and happy with your lot in life does not mean your child will be. Look at the world for that baby.

A hotel fee is simply an attempt at forcing a luxury on us. As a non-necessity (and Token's cameras are a luxury, so a safe is still a non-necessity to life), it's a luxury.

[crumbles]

There's a BIG difference between a hotel safe and health care...What hotels are doing with this is crooked.I find this funny that you think one is crooked, yet not the other. They are both the exact same idea. Actually, the health care one is worse. I'm held by criminal charges if I don't do the health care one.

The necessities to life should not be an exclusive right to the rich, things only affordable to the rich.Oh, right, only the "rich" can afford healthcare.

You have a child, right? Do you want to make this a world where your baby has to grow up to one day decide between food and life-saving medical care?No, I want him to grow up in a country founded by freedom and not be forced to do things by his own government. This isn't China. I also want him to be able to get emergency operations when he needs it, and not have to wait two weeks and possibly die because of it.

Supposedly there are around 40 million people in America say they cannot afford adequate healthcare. The keyword in that sentence is "say" they can't afford it. That does not mean they can't. That just means they don't want to spend their money on it. They'd rather make their cell phone payment, etc. Leave the "important survival" stuff (as you say) to the government, despite this not being the governments job. Oh, and just to clarify who exactly those 40 million people are (http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2007/20070718153509.aspx)... how about 10 million of them being illegal immigrants? 17 million others making $50,000 or more a year.

But why stop at healthcare? Why not mandate everyone to buy a house? Even you mentioned that everyone needs shelter.

Another problem with nationalized health care is that it makes medical services "seem" free. This will push demand beyond supply. So, how will the governments deal with that? By limiting what's available.

That's why the British National Health Service recently made the pathetic promise (http://www.oxfordradcliffe.nhs.uk/forclinicians/18weeks/18weeks.aspx) to reduce wait times for hospital care to four months.

The wait to see dentists is so long that some Brits pull their own teeth. Dental tools: pliers and vodka (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article105238.ece).

One hospital tried to save money by not changing bed sheets every day. British papers report (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=448395&in_page_id=1774) that instead of washing them, nurses were encouraged to just turn them over.

Government rationing of health care in Canada is why when Karen Jepp was about to give birth to quadruplets last month, she was told that all the neonatal units she could go to in Canada were too crowded. She flew to Montana (that's the United States by the way) to have the babies.

David Gratzer (a Canadian doctor) has said to the news before: "People line up for care; some of them die. That's what happens," He thought the Canadian system was great until he started treating patients. "The more time I spent in the Canadian system, the more I came across people waiting. ... You want to see your neurologist because of your stress headache? No problem! You just have to wait six months. You want an MRI? No problem! Free as the air! You just gotta wait six months."

Michael Moore retorts that Canadians live longer than Americans, but Canadians' longer lives are unrelated to heath care. Canadians are less likely to get into accidents or be murdered. Take those factors into account, not to mention obesity, and Americans live longer.

Most Canadians like their free health care, but Canadian doctors tell us the system is cracking. More than a million Canadians cannot find a regular family doctor. One town holds a lottery. Once a week the town clerk gets a box out of the closet. Everyone who wants to have a family doctor puts his or her name in it. The clerk pulls out one slip to determine the winner. Others in town have to wait.

The surest way to make affordable health care available to every single American is through the private sector. With every private sector solution introduced into our health care system politicians and government lose power. Something Democrats don't want, and something the government doesn't want.

Al Gore said that healthcare "ought to be a matter of right," and that the current healthcare situation is "immoral."

Health care simply is not and cannot be a right. In order for you to receive health care some other individual must expend time property: time treating you, or property used in your treatment. To have a "right" to healthcare means that you have a "right" to a portion of someone else's life or property. Sorry, things don't, and shouldn't work that way.

Have you ever been to a doc in the box before? Those places that only charge you $20 to see a doctor? Yea, well, we took our son to one last night around 8PM because we were worried that he might be getting sick with something, and we didn't want to wait to make an appointment with our normal doctor the next day. Yea, it was a 4 hour wait in a room filled with 100 Mexicans. Welcome to Universal Healthcare times 100 when they don't even have to fork over the $20 because it will be coming out of my paycheck.

So yes, to answer your question I do love my son very much. Enough to fight for this to never happen to him. Enough to make sure America is still around when he grows up.

Oh, and while you're at it, you should read this: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html He makes some really good points that I'd like to see you try and counter.

[tokenuser]

what i am always wondering about "righties" is why they fail to see how the system benefited them and how a healthier smarter population also benefits them.Bingo.

... but if people are smarter, who are going to do the menial jobs that can't be outsourced?

As for the article quoted, I travel. A lot. Probably more than 95% of people in these forums, both domesitc and international, and for business and pleasure. Generally staying at 3 star hotels or higher.

I have never seen most of the charges they are citing. Yes, minibar fees are BS - but my first stop at a new hotel is always the Quik-E-Mart at the local gas station (there is always one close by to a hotel) for a litre of water and some soda (sometime some chips/chocolate). If it is winter, I line the bottles up against the window, and they stay suitably chilled (if the minibar is stocked with a sensor system, or no minibar present). I will also fill the sink in the bathroom with ice (at least they don't charge for ice yet) and a little tap water and leave my bottle in there to stay cool.

Late checkin/out? Baggage holding fees? Newspaper? Join the hotel rewards programs - those are all free items. No charge. Gratis.

Health club? Business Center? Most of those are pay for use options, and I am yet to see a Mariott, Hilton, Sheraton, or Intercontinental tack that onto my room charge. What I do see is the more expensive hotels charging for internet access - often $20/day. So ... I just use my Crackberry, or choose to stay somewhere with free access (I work on the road and need access to at least email).

I disagree with the War in Iraq (where are those terrorists again?), can I have the IRS refund me the proportion of my income taxes going to that waste of money? I don't have children so don't need schools - can I have that portion of my property taxes refunded? I only drive on a limited number of roads, so I don't need to fund the other roads. I have never called a fire department, so they are pointless to have as well.

The difference between the hotel bill and democrat tax analogy is that taxes pay for shared services that make up the infrastructure of a first world nation - education, transport, security, energy, health. The hotel bill is a frivilous example of nonessential items, ironically imposed by companies chaired by people who are likely to vote republican, inwhich you are caught with a bait and switch - sure the room costs $x/day, plus all these other fees that you will be charged for on top of the bill. At least the deocrats are up front about it - yeah, we cost a little more, but you have access to a greater range of services.

[comhcinc]

crumbles why don't you love and believe in this country? anytime some one brings up national health care you always find problems with all these other countries' systems. do you not think america is better than that? why don't you think america can figure out the solution to these problems?

[crumbles]

I disagree with the War in Iraq (where are those terrorists again?)I dunno, why don't you ask the people in the mass graves that were uncovered. Or how about the chemical weapons that were found inculding mustard gas and Sarin nerve gas variety...nasty stuff. Or, how about the 500 tons...that's right...TONS...make that 1million pounds of yellow cake uranium. It was found at Saddam's nuclear weapons facility (yup...he had one of those too.) 1.8 tons of partially enriched uranium found at the same place. You know, the stuff you need to make nukes. Hidden centrifuge parts and blueprints. Two dozen artillery shells loaded with Sarin and mustard gas. (Oh, by the way, mustard gas is a WMD.)

But I'm sure that the families of the mass graves would agree with you Token that there are no terrorists there. 100% sure.

crumbles why don't you love and believe in this country?HAHAHAHAHa, that's hilarious. I'm the only person on this board who still believes in America and what it was founded on.

[comhcinc]

funny i haven't heard about any of that, could you maybe provide a link so the rest of us could be informed

[crumbles]

funny i haven't heard about any of that, could you maybe provide a link so the rest of us could be informedDude, I wrote like 10 pages. Can you be a little more specific what you want the news article to?

[comhcinc]

it was more like 1 paragraph, but sure.

i really love to read more about the 500 tons of yellow cake uranium.

[phatlip12]

funny i haven't heard about any of that, could you maybe provide a link so the rest of us could be informed

Does it really matter? The site's going to be called "right and loving it.com" with shirts that say "God Bless George Bush" for sale.

Yes, lets waste money on a pointless war that has resulted in the death of thousands yet complain when we try to focus money on programs that will help those in need in our country. I can't stand to hear people with lots of money bitch about taxes. Get over it, stop being so damn greedy and pay your taxes like the rest of us. You make more so the government takes more. It's an equal blow. At least when it's all said and done you're still rolling around in your Cadillac. We have this arse whole customer that comes into where I work with LOTS of money. Last weekend, I heard him bitching about his taxes and it literally made me a little sick to my stomach. Stop being a greedy bastard and pay (in reference to people with LOTS of money that are cheap like this guy). Who should I feel sorry for, you who bitches about taxes yet brags about how much money you have or a person who is poor and is struggling to survive. (not in reference to anyone here).

[crumbles]

it was more like 1 paragraph, but sure.Well tough guy, since you were to lazy to quote what you were referencing, I had no clue what you were talking about.

i really love to read more about the 500 tons of yellow cake uranium.Google Iraq WMD Declassified report. Or, I just uploaded it to mediafire: http://www.mediafire.com/?9bubrt291yo

[crumbles]

...I can't stand to hear people with lots of money bitch about taxes. Get over it, stop being so damn greedy and pay your taxes like the rest of us. You make more so the government takes more. It's an equal blow.Ah, class/wealth envy. My favorite argument by the Democrats. But no, you're right, it won't matter to a Democrat. They are all shut ears unless it's listening about taking money from someone else to give to yourself. Oh, but don't be "greedy" OK? Seriously Phatlip, you piss me off so much, I actually despise coming here. In fact, seriously, I'm done. Fucking ban me please.

[phatlip12]

Ah, class/wealth envy. My favorite argument by the Democrats. But no, you're right, it won't matter to a Democrat. They are all shut ears unless it's listening about taking money from someone else to give to yourself. Oh, but don't be "greedy" OK?

Nah, not envy. Just cheap people with big pockets that like to complain. I'm just more concerned with helping a person that actually needs the help. They need the help, not the rich.

[crumbles]

Nah, not envy. Just cheap people with big pockets that like to complain.Sorry, that's envy. You are jealous that people make more money than you and aren't forced to give it to other people.

I'm just more concerned with helping a person that actually needs the help. They need the help, not the rich.I donate money to charities every year. Americans are the most charitable people on this planet. You just want to make it a law to force people to give their money away. This is what I was telling you about the difference between Republicans and Democrats.

If you don't agree with a Democrat, they just make it a law to agree with them.

Now seriously, fucking ban my account. I can't stand this anymore.

[tokenuser]

But I'm sure that the families of the mass graves would agree with you Token that there are no terrorists there. 100% sure.Yeah, I clipped a ton of IRRELEVANT CRAP. Why? Because those were not acts of TERRORISM, they were acts of genocide carried out by a dictator against the people who lived within his borders. Are the ethnic troubles in Kenya acts of terrorism? No - they are racially motivated acts of domestic violence. What about the mass graves in Serbia? No, not terrorism, civil war motivated by ethnic cleansing.

So, why is the US involved in Iraq again? Iraq had a stockpile (dubious) of weapons ready for a state of war. They were not terrorist. Connections between the government of Iraq (at the time) and Al-Queda (the nominated bad guys) was tenuous at best. Why not attack Pakistan? Iran?

I'll support the troops, but the analogy I was drawing seems to have hit a sore spot with you. I don't want to support the war in Iraq, you don't want to support domestic health care. I can guarantee you that you would personally see more benefits from taxes supporting domestic health care than supporting an occupation of Iraq.

Unfortunately, not supporting the war is not an option. We (and I use we because a. Australian troops are on the ground in both Iraq and Afghanistan and b. I pay US taxes just like you do) are committed now. Pulling out is not an option without totally destabilising the region ... and the irony is that US taxes are paying for universal health care in Iraq, but not in the US.

Makes asking for an itemised item like a safe being removed from your hotel bill kinda meaningless in the greater scheme of things.

[phatlip12]

Sorry, that's envy. You are jealous that people make more money than you and aren't forced to give it to other people.

I donate money to charities every year. Americans are the most charitable people on this planet. You just want to make it a law to force people to give their money away. This is what I was telling you about the difference between Republicans and Democrats.

If you don't agree with a Democrat, they just make it a law to agree with them.

Now seriously, fucking ban my account. I can't stand this anymore.

The system won't work if based on nothing but charity. There are good ones like you and I that would contribute but a majority wouldn't, we wouldn't have enough money to pay for what we need.

Ban your account? You started this thread knowing the majority here would disagree with you. You weren't forced to engage in this debate, nobody is making you continue your discussion in this thread.

[crumbles]

Ban your account?Yes. It's the only way to keep me away from all this bullshit. Please do it so I don't have to go make 100 posts violating the TOS.

[comhcinc]

Google Iraq WMD Declassified report. Or, I just uploaded it to mediafire: http://www.mediafire.com/?9bubrt291yo

thank you for uploading that. in it we find out that we found degraded(meaning not harmful and unuseable) mustard and surin gas, and really that's it.

NOTHING ELSE YOU MENTION WAS IN THAT REPORT

[phatlip12]

Yes. It's the only way to keep me away from all this bullshit. Please do it so I don't have to go make 100 posts violating the TOS.

Calm down! It's just a thread on a web forum. You were the one that made this thread knowing how it would turn out having a community that is mainly liberal. I can lock the thread as you were the one that created it. However, I'm not going to ban your account (someone else may, I won't). Walk away from the keyboard for a few, collect your thoughts, take a deep breath and come back. If you still feel the same way tomorrow I'll do it.

[crumbles]

Calm down! It's just a thread on a web forum. You were the one that made this thread knowing how it would turn out having a community that is mainly liberal.Ironically I didn't want the thread to turn into this. I was seriously wanting to try and figure out the Liberal mindset. Damn you Aria for getting me into this again!

If you still feel the same way tomorrow I'll do it.Despite this forum having a billion people visit it, it's still the same 20 people that ever post anything. I'm tired of arguing with the same 20 people and it just gets me more pissed than I need to be anyway. I'd rather fight my battles in a more faster fashion in person than over this forum anyway. I can assure you I won't change my mind.

[masherscf]

Hmm, It's common for a people to pay taxes to support municipal services that they don't use. There's no property tax exemption for people with no school age children. I think there's something to be said for objecting to gratuitous taxation.

However, equating this case of marginal fraud in the lodging industry to universal heath care is a bit of a stretch. A hotel safe is an optional luxury service and health care is not. Health care is not something you can opt-out of. Again, I'm not arguing the merit of universal health care. I'm just saying this analogy is a little silly.

[skyz]

I'm the only person on this board who still believes in America and what it was founded on.

crumbles i have said this before but you assume way too much that is in no way logical rational nor provable

a person or many persons can disagree with your position and still believe fervently in america (i think you mean the usa) and the principles it was founded on

believing your perception is the only possible right perception indicates a very narrow vision

narrow mindedness is almost assuredly not accurate and not smart

giving yourself all the credit and none to anyone/everyone else is doomed to failure

it is axiomatic

[skyz]

I was seriously wanting to try and figure out the Liberal mindset.

a liberal mindset: everyone has the same rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness and anyone high or low rich or poor smart or not may have something to contribut to the benefit of the whole

I can assure you I won't change my mind.

then why do you bother to argue err discuss

being absolutely close minded is not imho an asset you are closing yourself off a priori to any and all information that might edify you

good thing you are not a scientist because if you were a scientist with that mindset you would be absolutely worthless

i am not attacking you crumbles i am attacking the way you think :) you are inordinately rigid

[skyz]

Hmm, It's common for a people to pay taxes to support municipal services that they don't use. There's no property tax exemption for people with no school age children. I think there's something to be said for objecting to gratuitous taxation.



i use the bike paths that people who do not use them pay for

but by using the bike paths i contribute to less traffic congestion and more parking places for those who do not use the bike paths

as aria suggested providing for early health care for all means less taxes for costs of advanced disease for the uninsured

there tends to be a natural balancing out

[masherscf]

i use the bike paths that people who do not use them pay for

but by using the bike paths i contribute to less traffic congestion and more parking places for those who do not use the bike paths

as aria suggested providing for early health care for all means less taxes for costs of advanced disease for the uninsured

there tends to be a natural balancing out

Oh, I agree with all of this. We also pay for prisons what we don't use...at least, I don't. There's a price to be paid for a well ordered society and that price often takes the form of taxes. There is an expectation that taxes will pay for public services that they don't use.

However, this is also true of private enterprise. Tech support staff and bank tellers have salaries that are subsidized by people who don't use the the services.

The hotel could have built the safe fee into the room charge. They didn't for marketing purposes. Using a unadvertised fee to inflate an advertised rate is objectionable. I wouldn't care if I used the safe or not.

[skyz]

The hotel could have built the safe fee into the room charge. They didn't for marketing purposes. Using a unadvertised fee to inflate an advertised rate is objectionable. I wouldn't care if I used the safe or not.

i agree

it makes for bad pr it leaves a 'bad taste' in the consumer's perception

things like that make me wonder how smart / stupid the people making these decisions are

i can give you a very trivial personal example

i live in a residential neighborhood there are no stores but across the creek begins the area where there are stores as well as apartments

i frequent a little market that has a little restaurant with some outside tables

i often stop there on my way to do my errands or after to drink a cola

the owner an old man always asks me if the drink is for there or to go and if i want to sit at the outside tables he charges me more

now the thing is almost no one ever sits at those tables and i am a pretty girl with long blond hair (once i sit there more people tend to decide to sit there)

if he were smart he would be paying me to sit there rather than charging me

plus it annoys me so if the other store on the block had seating i would go there

[phatlip12]

a liberal mindset: everyone has the same rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness and anyone high or low rich or poor smart or not may have something to contribut to the benefit of the whole


Wow! Sell said Sky! :)

[ariastar]

Crumbles, I am one of those people who makes "$50,000 or more a year," yet the rent here is $2,200/mo. You know, $26,400 per year for a roof over my head. Add to that utilities, food, gas to get to work ($3.50 at the station next to me), car insurance, car maintenance, a cell phone and internet I NEED to be able to work, personal things like shampoo, conditioner, toothpaste, tampons, and other hygeine products, and tell me where money can be found. Yes, there are places in this country where rent is $600/month for an entire house, so $50k is wealthy, but there are areas where $50k is peanuts. You can live comfortably in some areas of this country in a large house for what just rent costs here.

For some people, insurance isn't as affordable as getting the cheapest plan. If you've had a medical problem, you can find yourself in the position of being disqualified. I spent the last five years trying to get insurance, and it was only when I called my old Medicare worker that she was able to get Kaiser to accept me as I was a member there as a teenager. But even then, it'll be $8k paid per year before anything is covered. I don't know how the hell this can be fit into my budget. Before you say it, no, I have no credit card bills, no big, fancy TVs. Life here is pretty pushed to its limit. I'm trying to figure out if $10 can be spared come the 29th to see a movie with a friend I've been waiting for for a year.

You are so incredibly closed-minded that you think that insurance is pocket change. You forget that for many people that money just isn't there, and that each person's circumstance is different. Just because it works for yo doesn't mean it works for everybody.

Get off your fucking high horse and drop your elitist attitude. Not everyone is rich.

[ariastar]

Nah, not envy. Just cheap people with big pockets that like to complain. I'm just more concerned with helping a person that actually needs the help. They need the help, not the rich.

The people with the big pockets make it off the work of the little guy. Something seems wrong to me that the big guy, who wouldn't be where he is without underlings, likes to crap on them too.

[ariastar]

Damn you Aria for getting me into this again!

You started the thread. Don't blame me.


Despite this forum having a billion people visit it, it's still the same 20 people that ever post anything. I'm tired of arguing with the same 20 people and it just gets me more pissed than I need to be anyway. I'd rather fight my battles in a more faster fashion in person than over this forum anyway. I can assure you I won't change my mind.

So then you should know how "the same 20 people that ever post anything" will react to things like this by now.

[tokenuser]

The people with the big pockets make it off the work of the little guy. Something seems wrong to me that the big guy, who wouldn't be where he is without underlings, likes to crap on them too.This is the part I have a hard time with Republicans not understanding. By the nature of the "Big Business not Big Government" attitude, you would think that keeping those underlings healthy would be a sensible thing to do.

You own a restaurant, and 1/3 of your staff are off sick, and another 1/3 are coughing into the patrons food because they can't afford to take time off. Universal health care would mean that they could see a doctor and either avoid the illness entirely, or recover from it faster.

You own a construction company, and a worker is off sick ... or their kids are sick. You have suddenly lost productivity for the day. If that happens often enough you are now behind on your jobs, and lose business.

Universal health care and education are parts of the infrastructure a modern society needs, and are just as vital as security (police, armed forces, and firemen), energy (electricity, gas, petrol), and transportation (roads, railways). We use all of these services either directly or indirectly.

[skyz]

Universal health care and education are parts of the infrastructure a modern society needs, and are just as vital as security (police, armed forces, and firemen), energy (electricity, gas, petrol), and transportation (roads, railways). We use all of these services either directly or indirectly.

the 'peon' who gets through school on federal grants might be the one whose labor in some lab comes up with the drug that saves your kid's life

many people who are among the 'elite' came from nothing or their parents had nothing

you can't discount people due to their current circumstances

we can't afford to lose the value potential of those who are not of obvious worth as measured by a superficial standard

[ariastar]

the 'peon' who gets through school on federal grants might be the one whose labor in some lab comes up with the drug that saves your kid's life

many people who are among the 'elite' came from nothing or their parents had nothing

you can't discount people due to their current circumstances

we can't afford to lose the value potential of those who are not of obvious worth as measured by a superficial standard



Unfortunately some of those elite ignore that their own elite line started from nothing too and would like little more than to keep the eliteness for themselves and their offspring.

[masherscf]

Unfortunately some of those elite ignore that their own elite line started from nothing too and would like little more than to keep the eliteness for themselves and their offspring.

I have a really smart libertarian friend. He's my brother-in-law actually. He's getting a master's degree in economics and works in the finical markets. He likes to remind me that any taxes leveled on business are ultimately passed on to consumers, so it doesn't make any sense to tax businesses.

I feel the same way about health-care expenses. The cost of providing employees with health care and the lack of productivity of employees without adequate health care is ultimately born by consumers as surely as if it were a tax. The only real losers in a more broadly applied health care system are companies in the heath care field who make more money from more sick people. A broadly applied health care system focused on prevention is only sensible to those people who don't look upon the sick as a cash stream. Conservative protests against such a system are undoubtedly fueled by people looking for protect this cash stream.

I'm not saying the complete socialized medicine is the answer. However, private enterprise just isn't well suited to the task because of obvious conflicts of interests. Any assertion that private enterprise can been better than government would be in managing the American health-care system is strictly dogmatic.

I do agree that a complete socialized health-care structure does seem a little unamerican. But, I don't think that's a good idea not to talk about it. Dismissing an idea because it seems unamerican is also a dogmatic reaction.

[masherscf]

If you can;t bring anything intelligent to the conversation, don't bother.

[ariastar]

If you can;t bring anything intelligent to the conversation, don't bother.

What on earth is this in reply to? Something I said?

[ariastar]

I have a really smart libertarian friend. He's my brother-in-law actually. He's getting a master's degree in economics and works in the finical markets. He likes to remind me that any taxes leveled on business are ultimately passed on to consumers, so it doesn't make any sense to tax businesses.

I feel the same way about health-care expenses. The cost of providing employees with health care and the lack of productivity of employees without adequate health care is ultimately born by consumers as surely as if it were a tax. The only real losers in a more broadly applied health care system are companies in the heath care field who make more money from more sick people. A broadly applied health care system focused on prevention is only sensible to those people who don't look upon the sick as a cash stream. Conservative protests against such a system are undoubtedly fueled by people looking for protect this cash stream.

I'm not saying the complete socialized medicine is the answer. However, private enterprise just isn't well suited to the task because of obvious conflicts of interests. Any assertion that private enterprise can been better than government would be in managing the American health-care system is strictly dogmatic.

I do agree that a complete socialized health-care structure does seem a little unamerican. But, I don't think that's a good idea not to talk about it. Dismissing an idea because it seems unamerican is also a dogmatic reaction.

How is socialized health care different than socialized welfare, aside from those already being taxed will benefit from it too?

[masherscf]

How is socialized health care different than socialized welfare, aside from those already being taxed will benefit from it too?

I'm not sure that I can answer your question. But, there are some who believe that any system of welfare is also unamerican.

What on earth is this in reply to? Something I said?

Heavens, no. That was for someone else.

[ariastar]

I'm not sure that I can answer your question. But, there are some who believe that any system of welfare is also unamerican.

I'm trying to understand how some people can see one as being okay, but not the other, especially when, with the "wrong" one, the people paying also benefit.

[masherscf]

I'm trying to understand how some people can see one as being okay, but not the other, especially when, with the "wrong" one, the people paying also benefit.

I'm not sure it's black and white issue. There's a lot of dogma that gets in the way. Suffice it to say, many of those opposed to government managed health care wouldn't shed a tear if every tax finianced social program bit the dust.

[esophagus]

What on earth is this in reply to? Something I said?I see a certain someone was banned, which may have something to do with it.

[ariastar]

I see a certain someone was banned, which may have something to do with it.

I'm only surprised it took so long, though was at his request earlier in this thread. Phatty denied him for a while, but he made it clear that trouble would go on.

I want a custom title.

[tokenuser]

I see a certain someone was banned, which may have something to do with it.Both wrong. Things seem a little out of context because a post, not from the banned person, was removed.

[nextgenxbox]

WTF are you talking about? How do you go from safes to left wing talk?

[ariastar]

WTF are you talking about? How do you go from safes to left wing talk?

It was Crumbles' intention. He was comparing an added-on fee for a safe in a hotel room to universal health care. So...he intended entirely for this to happen. From the initial post.