Rucka off of Checkmate, Six Gun cries

[Six Gun]

From Rucka's blog (http://ruckawriter.livejournal.com/37730.html):

So as there's no confusion about this, I was not removed from the book. I decided that #25 would be my final issue on the title at least a year ago, and informed DC Editorial of my decision shortly thereafter. Since then, I've tried to arrange things such that my departure would leave the book in as strong a position as possible, and headed in the direction I thought best. Ultimately, however, the choice on who takes over the book is DC's, and not mine.

So who else is dropping the book with #26? I am, only because I don't think that any other creative team can hold a candle to what Rucka did on the title and every issue I read after his departure would be cast in that shadow.

Tis a sad, sad day.

[Thomas Katers]

The only person that I think could maintain the quality and feel would be Ostrander....I shall wait and see.

[GungaDin]

Yeah... DC pretty much just cancelled this book... Sad day.

[niceguyeddie]

that's just crazy... it is.

[Six Gun]

The only person that I think could maintain the quality and feel would be Ostrander....I shall wait and see.

I'm not a fan of the Ostrander. I think that Eric Trautman should have stepped up into the full-time writing gig.

[Labor_Days]

Yeah, Rucka dropped hints in the interview he did on Newsarama for the Daredevil colabo with Brubaker. It was only a matter of time before this became official.

Think Rucka is grooming Trautman to take over when he is gone. But Ostrander has a great handle on this side of the DCU as well. I think he might do a fine job. In any case, it's a lot for another writer to fill Rucka's shoes.

I'll give it a few issues before droppage after #25. That said, Checkmate was good this week. Real good.

[Jimski]

Wow. He's so strongly identified with this book, it almost seems like it's his property. I read the headline and said, "They're replacing him? Can they do that?"

My condolences to the fans. This reminds me of when Marvel announced Bendis was handing The Pulse over to Paul Jenkins, and I tried to drive my car into a quarry.

[lucero]

A bitter pill becomes even more bitter after this week's issue. I'll stick with it to see where it goes but I'm not optimistic.

[acomicbookgirl]

Countdown to Final Rucka.. Last night was not a good night..

[TLederz]

WOW. This was one of the strongest books i picked up today, and now this? Any thoughts on who'll pick it up? Or hoping for anyone imperticular?

[acomicbookgirl]

http://ruckawriter.livejournal.com/37730.html

[Casually Drowned]

http://ruckawriter.livejournal.com/37730.html

Thanks for the link.

[TLederz]

Ive never read anything Bruce Jones. Hate to sound like a noob, but hows it stack up to Rucka?

[GungaDin]

Ive never read anything Bruce Jones. Hate to sound like a noob, but hows it stack up to Rucka?

The only thing I've read of his is his Nightwing... Which was the run after Devin Grayson: One Year Later... That was terrible. I couldn't stand it at all... So I think I dropped Checkmate after issue 25...

[JasonTodd]

I'll give Checkmate the benefit of the doubt for an issue or two, but I can't stand Bruce Jones. Everything I've read of his (Hulk, Nightwing), has been horrible.

[MastaP]

I havn't read alot of Bruce Jone's stuff, but what I have was terrible. Which is sad because i want to like the new War that Time Forgot.

[Labor_Days]

Bruce Jones?!

This is the worst thing to ever happen to me.

[Jimski]

Ive never read anything Bruce Jones. Hate to sound like a noob, but hows it stack up to Rucka?

Oh, wow. Bruce Jones?

I'm very sorry for your loss.

The Hulk was not a good experience.

[GungaDin]

So the Nightwing wasn't a fluke?

[esophagus]

I doubt Bruce Jones will be a permanent replacement. Probably just writing that issue, or the next couple.

[GungaDin]

I doubt Bruce Jones will be a permanent replacement. Probably just writing that issue, or the next couple.

That's all it'll take to get cancelled....

[esophagus]

That's all it'll take to get cancelled....
"Bruce, we have good news, and we have bad news. Bad news: You're fired, and going to hell. Good news: We don't have to read your shit."


Edit: For the record, I've never had the pleasure of reading anything Bruce Jones has done. Purely making bad attempts at being clever.

[GungaDin]

"Bruce, we have good news, and we have bad news. Bad news: You're fired, and going to hell. Good news: We don't have to read your shit."

Wow... I really did not know of this Bruce Jones hate... Damn.

[esophagus]

Wow... I really did not know of this Bruce Jones hate... Damn.See the edit.:rolleyes:

[GungaDin]

See the edit.:rolleyes:

Ah. But still, I see the hatred from everyone... So I just assume...

[Jon_Samuelson]

Yeah, this is just a bit disappointing. I guess the only thing I've read by Jones was his run on the Hulk, and it was awful. The worst thing about it in my opinion was some pretty bad mischaracterization of some of the characters (particularly Banner). So if that's any indication, I think this could be completely FUBAR. It's sad, because I only recently bought the first trade, and was considering picking up the issues, now I'll just wait to pick up the trades of all of Rucka's work.

[horatio616]

Oh, wow. Bruce Jones?

I'm very sorry for your loss.

The Hulk was not a good experience.

The Bruce Jones Hulk was very good for about a year and then, all of the sudden, it became incredibly unreadable.

[Six Gun]

I feel like a lot of the fault of this is that a lot of you guys only read Checkmate in trade :rolleyes:

[JonathanD.Gordon]

I frankly am surprised the book wasn't just canceled. as far as I have seen it has never been a big seller. I liked it being written by rucka, but this isn't going to be one of those books that can be written by a lot of writers. I wish they would do like ALIAS and just have Rucka wrap it up in a nice bow that can be absoluted.

[xyzzy]

I feel like a lot of the fault of this is that a lot of you guys only read Checkmate in trade :rolleyes:


Yeah, I'm sure that buying the book really hurt it and caused Rucka to decide to move on to other projects.

[optimus187prime]

The only thing I've read of his is his Nightwing... Which was the run after Devin Grayson: One Year Later... That was terrible. I couldn't stand it at all... So I think I dropped Checkmate after issue 25...

His NightWing made me drop the series, Hearing good things about Tomasi is making me think I will give it another go.

On a off topic note, anyone read The Boys? Swingwing and Tek Knight......LOL

[Six Gun]

Yeah, I'm sure that buying the book really hurt it and caused Rucka to decide to move on to other projects.

This is a market where issue numbers hold more sway. Rucka has said that he doesn't get upset about numbers, but that he sometimes gets downtrodden when he does something that he thinks is great and he knows that few people will ever read

[xyzzy]

This is a market where issue numbers hold more sway. Rucka has said that he doesn't get upset about numbers, but that he sometimes gets downtrodden when he does something that he thinks is great and he knows that few people will ever read

I bought it in trade and I read it. I'm pretty sick of people telling me that by buying a product, I'm hurting said product. It's ridiculous.

Would buying issues have helped the series more? Sure. But buying trades also helps, just not as much. Why don't you direct your ire to all of the people who didn't buy the series in any form, which certainly didn't help. Though that doesn't make sense either since people should buy what they want to buy, not what you want them to buy.

[Labor_Days]

Nah, comic series from the big two tend to live & die by their monthly sales.

Sure. They make money from trades but they judge the viability of a series on the monthlies.

Dudes really should have bought Checkmate in issues.

[xyzzy]

Nah, comic series from the big two tend to live & die by their monthly sales.

Sure. They make money from trades but they judge the viability of a series on the monthlies.

Dudes really should have bought Checkmate in issues.

Why should I buy something I don't want? That makes no sense.

[Labor_Days]

Then you don't enjoy monthly serialized comics. You're a trade guy. Gotcha.

[xyzzy]

Then you don't enjoy monthly serialized comics. You're a trade guy. Gotcha.

Well, obviously I do enjoy monthly serialized comics, just in collected format. I do read some things in issues, like Fell, but they're few and far between. Generally it's when I think that they read better in issue format, though sometimes I'll buy an event comic in issues because I enjoy the buzz and discussion that goes with along with event comics.

People saying that I should buy monthly issues in order to support a comic is just a pet peeve of mine. I don't buy comics to support anybody. I buy comics because I want to enjoy them. The purchasing decisions I make are based on that. When I buy a comic, my thought is "which format do I enjoy more," not "which format will be better for the company that made this." I think that this is true for most people for most products. I'm not sure why comics should be different.

[Labor_Days]

I don't have a particular attachment to floppies (I give most away and buy the trade afterward)- but that's the way this industry is set up. Thems the brakes.

Enjoy your finite trades of Gotham Central, The Order and now, Checkmate.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

People saying that I should buy monthly issues in order to support a comic is just a pet peeve of mine. I don't buy comics to support anybody. I buy comics because I want to enjoy them.


It shouldn't be this way but the comics make it so that if it is a trade driven book with few monthly isses selling the books get cancelled. For a creator its gotta be like a movie star whos movies sell like hot cakes on DVD but do nothing in the box office. If it looks like that you really would want to leave that project.

[xyzzy]

I don't have a particular attachment to floppies (I give most away and buy the trade afterward)- but that's the way this industry is set up. Thems the brakes.

That doesn't really address anything I said. I agree with your assessment of how the industry works. Just not that it should affect my purchasing patterns.

Enjoy your finite trades of Gotham Central, The Order and now, Checkmate.

I will, thanks. And don't forget Manhunter. I bought that in trades, too. Amd Slott's Thing. Oh, and Nextwave.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

I live this moral dilemma everyday. I am an artist who works best in the middle of the night with no destraction. So I watch a lot of shows on DVD or ITunes Download. I Love the shows and want them to keep airing. I know however that I am helping them get cancelled by viewing this way. Just like with the comics it shouldn't work this way. But it does and as a consumer you should know your harming the product by purchasing it in one format over another.

[Labor_Days]

That doesn't really address anything I said. I agree with your assessment of how the industry works. Just not that it should affect my purchasing patterns.
Of course, it does. I was agreeing with you not wanting to keep floppies around. Hench, why I give them away. I too, "do not want them". However, I do place value on supporting a specific medium and/or creators.

Sorry bro, but trades are not at all the same as month-to-month floppy comics for a number of reasons. Which is what I was talking about w/r/t singles vs. trades and what is pertinent to this here discussion of Checkmate doing poorly in monthly sales.

I don't begrudge anyone preferring trades to floppies (that's why I give mine away, natch). Just that the industry, rather we like it or not, is set up a certain way and those books that do poorly in single issues tend to have their days numbered.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

Of course, it does. I was agreeing with you not wanting to keep floppies around. Hench, why I give them away. I too, "do not want them". However, I do place value on supporting a specific medium and/or creators.

Sorry bro, but trades are not at all the same as month-to-month floppy comics for a number of reasons. Which is what I was talking about w/r/t singles vs. trades and what is pertinent to this here discussion of Checkmate doing poorly in monthly sales.

I don't begrudge anyone preferring trades to floppies (that's why I give mine away, natch). Just that the industry, rather we like it or not, is set up a certain way and those books that do poorly in single issues tend to have their days numbered.

I am like you two. I love trades more. but they don't get add money from trades so it is less worthy to them.

[xyzzy]

I live this moral dilemma everyday. I am an artist who works best in the middle of the night with no destraction. So I watch a lot of shows on DVD or ITunes Download. I Love the shows and want them to keep airing. I know however that I am helping them get cancelled by viewing this way. Just like with the comics it shouldn't work this way. But it does and as a consumer you should know your harming the product by purchasing it in one format over another.

It is entirely inccorect to say that buying in trades hurts a series. At the absolute worst, you might say that it does not help a series. But even that I think is incorrect because it helps in, at the very least, a very very small amount. You and others seem hung up on the fact that because it helps less than buying monthlies that equates to hurting the series and that is just wrong. It's like saying that donating only $5 to a political campaign is hurting it because donating $1,000 would help so much more.

If I didn't buy the series in trades, the other option would be to not buy it at all. Which is better?

[xyzzy]

Of course, it does. I was agreeing with you not wanting to keep floppies around. Hench, why I give them away. I too, "do not want them". However, I do place value on supporting a specific medium and/or creators.

Sorry bro, but trades are not at all the same as month-to-month floppy comics for a number of reasons. Which is what I was talking about w/r/t singles vs. trades and what is pertinent to this here discussion of Checkmate doing poorly in monthly sales.

I don't begrudge anyone preferring trades to floppies (that's why I give mine away, natch). Just that the industry, rather we like it or not, is set up a certain way and those books that do poorly in single issues tend to have their days numbered.

You're missing my point. Even if we stipulate that everything you say about the industry is true that does not and should not affect the way I buy comics and the suggestion that it should is misguided at best.

The only way for the market to function efficiently is for people to buy what they actually want.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

It is entirely inccorect to say that buying in trades hurts a series. At the absolute worst, you might say that it does not help a series. But even that I think is incorrect because it helps in, at the very least, a very very small amount. You and others seem hung up on the fact that because it helps less than buying monthlies that equates to hurting the series and that is just wrong. It's like saying that donating only $5 to a political campaign is hurting it because donating $1,000 would help so much more.

If I didn't buy the series in trades, the other option would be to not buy it at all. Which is better?

dude, Its not about you. we're saying that it makes sense on an individual basis for everyone making the purchase. But when a large majority of those enjoying the book don't buy it monthly and buy it in trade it IS hrting the book and creative team. Those sales don't cont in the same way the floppys do because of Advertising revenue and lower price per total page. We agree that trades are better. But because we wan't the book to stay around we buy issues then the trade. I also give mine to friends to get them into the series and keep the trades for re-ead.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

You're missing my point. Even if we stipulate that everything you say about the industry is true that does not and should not affect the way I buy comics and the suggestion that it should is misguided at best.

The only way for the market to function efficiently is for people to buy what they actually want.

nobodys saying you should change the way you buy trades. In fact it wouldn't be worth it for you to switch on checkmate. unless you convince a few thousand to go to issues with you the book is still likely to be canceled sooner than later.

Everyone is free to buy what they want. but there are results of that. I know when I am buyin Eureka on DVD and not watching the show when it airs that I am hurting ratings and their add revenue. I know that that chain reaction could cancel the show and it will in the end effect me as a viewer of the show when there is no season 3 dvd, because there is no season 3. Its the same with comics. Your free to buy trades, but on books that suffer low floppy sales your probably looking at less of a run on that book.

[Labor_Days]

You're missing my point. Even if we stipulate that everything you say about the industry is true that does not and should not affect the way I buy comics and the suggestion that it should is misguided at best.
You're missing my point, in that one's preference for trades is irrelevant to monthly sales. Which is what keeps books alive in most cases.

You can choose to believe otherwise, but that isn't going to change anything.

[xyzzy]

You're missing my point, in that one's preference for trades is irrelevant to monthly sales. Which is what keeps books alive in most cases.

You can choose to believe otherwise, but that isn't going to change anything.

Seriously, what are you talking about?

Again, I repeat, for the third or fourth time, I agree that monthly sales are what determines whether a series survives or is cancelled.

But that has no impact on what I buy. Nor should it. I disagree that I should make purchasing decisions based on anything other than which format I personally prefer.

[xyzzy]

dude, Its not about you. we're saying that it makes sense on an individual basis for everyone making the purchase. But when a large majority of those enjoying the book don't buy it monthly and buy it in trade it IS hrting the book and creative team. Those sales don't cont in the same way the floppys do because of Advertising revenue and lower price per total page. We agree that trades are better. But because we wan't the book to stay around we buy issues then the trade. I also give mine to friends to get them into the series and keep the trades for re-ead.

How can you possibly say that it hurts a product to buy that product? It makes no sense whatsoever.

If Coke has a higher profit margin on bottles than they do on cans, are you hurting coke by buying cans?

I mean, seriously, this whole argument is absurd.

[xyzzy]

nobodys saying you should change the way you buy trades. In fact it wouldn't be worth it for you to switch on checkmate. unless you convince a few thousand to go to issues with you the book is still likely to be canceled sooner than later.

Everyone is free to buy what they want. but there are results of that. I know when I am buyin Eureka on DVD and not watching the show when it airs that I am hurting ratings and their add revenue. I know that that chain reaction could cancel the show and it will in the end effect me as a viewer of the show when there is no season 3 dvd, because there is no season 3. Its the same with comics. Your free to buy trades, but on books that suffer low floppy sales your probably looking at less of a run on that book.


I'm aware of that and I'm comfortable with that possibility.

The thing that annoys me is people who seem to think that there's something wrong with it.

[Labor_Days]

Seriously, what are you talking about?

Again, I repeat, for the third or fourth time, I agree that monthly sales are what determines whether a series survives or is canceled.

But that has no impact on what I buy. Nor should it.
Are you just being willfully dense here?

If you admit monthly sales are what often keep books from being axed, and you would like to continue reading these books (in trade or whatever) - then I should think that one could connect the dots and figure out that if enough people are not buying a series in floppise then it isn't going to last very long. Regardless of trades sales.

Thus, if you actually liked the series and wished for it to continue, you did yourself and the series in general a disservice by ignoring the single issues.

Rather you like the way things work or not is another matter. But singles issue sales often drive a series.

[xyzzy]

Are you just being willfully dense here?

I might ask you the same thing.

If you admit monthly sales are what often keep books from being axed, and you would like to continue reading these books (in trade or whatever) - then I should think that one could connect the dots and figure out that if enough people are not buying a series in floppise then it isn't going to last very long. Regardless of trades sales.

Thus, if you actually, liked the series and wished for it to continue, you did yourself and the series in general a disservice by ignoring the single issues.

I would like to continue to read the series in trades. I would not like to read the series in issues. Therefore I buy trades and not issues. Buying issues when I want to read trades doesn't make any sense. I don't understand which part you don't get.

I mean, I did a disservice to the series? Really? Buy purchasing it? C'mon. Be serious.


Rather you like the way things work or not is another matter. But singles issue sales often drive a series.

Okay, for the now fourth or fifth time, Yes, I know that single issue sales drive most series. I'm not sure why you keep repeating it like I'm disagreeing with you.

[Labor_Days]

You won't get to continue to read Checkmate in trade if not enough people are buying the series in single issue in lieu of the trade.

If one doesn't like or want single issues or simply prefers trades- tough cookies. Single issues are often the measure the big two use to judge rather a series will continue or not.

Those that read a series only in trade fuck themselves for a series will typically not continue for long if that is the case.

I am trying not to sound too offensive here- so take comfort in justifying your reading decision however you wish.

[xyzzy]

You won't get to continue to read Checkmate in trade if not enough people are buying the series in single issue in lieu of the trade.

There's certainly that possibility. But what can I do about it? As you said, issue sales determine whether it's kept around or not. I want to read it in trade. Buying it in issues would preclude that.


If one doesn't like or want single issues or simply prefers trades- tough cookies. Single issues are often the measure the big two use to judge rather a series will continue or not.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Aagin, I've never suggested otherwise.


Those that read a series only in trade fuck themselves for a series will typically not continue for long if that is the case.

This I find a little ridiculous. I fuck myself by not buying something I don't want? You've got a weird way of looking at things.

I am trying not to sound too offensive here- so take comfort in justifying your reading decision however you wish.

I buy things that I want. That's really all there is to it. Anything else seems insane to me.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

Those that read a series only in trade fuck themselves for a series will typically not continue for long if that is the case.



I completely agree with you up until this point where it is a different case book to book. I read walking dead, new avengers and ultimate spiderman in trade with little fear the book will get cancelled. It is a book to book thing.

I don't think we are ever going to get through to the guy Labor. Its not that buying the trade hurts the book. Its that NOT buying the floppys hurts the book. what I don't get is that Checkmate is a very difficult to understand book. how is he able to connect the dots in the checkmate plot and not connect .....

Not buying floppies risks canceling book + I am not buying floppies at all ever . In no way equals I am helping the book.

[xyzzy]

I don't think we are ever going to get through to the guy Labor. Its not that buying the trade hurts the book. Its that NOT buying the floppys hurts the book. .....

Okay, but there are billions of people who aren't buying the floppies or anything at all. But you focus on the ones who do buy the book, just not floppies.



Not buying floppies risks canceling book + I am not buying floppies at all ever . In no way equals I am helping the book.

Really, you don't think that for a borderline book, strong trade sales can keep it afloat? Runaways and Slott's She-Hulk were both given repreives based on strong trade sales.

As I said earlier, I fully acknowledge that single issue sales are more important. But that doesn't mean that trade sales are not at all helpful.

Furthermore, as has been my position, as a consumer, which one is more helpful to the publisher is not my concern.

Regardless, let's assume for the sake of discussion that trade sales have zero impact on series cancellation/survival.

The problems seems to be that you guys think that reading in issues is better than nothing. Whereas if I can't read it in trades, I'd rather just not read it at all. I've got a lot of different places to spend my entertainment dollars. If publishers put out a product I want, I buy it. If they don't, I buy something else. What I'm not going to do is buy something I don't want because they might not publish something that I do. That's backwards thinking to me.

[Labor_Days]

There's certainly that possibility. But what can I do about it?
Buy the single issues. That goes farther to the longevity of most series then trades. Buying in trade often doesn't mean shit when the single issues sales are too low.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Aagin, I've never suggested otherwise.
Ok, so what part of "low single issues sales = cancellation = you won't be continuing to read it in trade", do you not understand?

And why would you take such umbrage at Six's joking comment earlier if you admit strong single issues sales often keep a series going?

This I find a little ridiculous. I fuck myself by not buying something I don't want? You've got a weird way of looking at things.
Yes, you fuck yourself by not supporting a series you presumably enjoy in the format of most impact to the longevity of that series.

Sucks. But it is what it is.

I buy things that I want. That's really all there is to it. Anything else seems insane to me.
I don't want single issues either. But I want the series I enjoy to continue.

The want of a series to continue is greater than that of collected trades, for me.

You and many others (I assume), do not feel the same way. Otherwise, more would have bought such a series in issues.

Yup, sucks. But it is what it is.

[ConorKilpatrick]

I feel like a lot of the fault of this is that a lot of you guys only read Checkmate in trade :rolleyes:

Um, no it's not.

[xyzzy]

Buy the single issues. That goes farther to the longevity of most series then trades. Buying in trade often doesn't mean shit when the single issues sales are too low.

Maybe you missed the part where I said that I don't want to buy single issues.


Ok, so what part of "low single issues sales = cancellation = you won't be continuing to read it in trade", do you not understand?

I understand the whole thing.

And why would you take such umbrage at Six's joking comment earlier if you admit strong single issues sales often keep a series going?

Because it's annoying. And I think it's foolish to blame people who buy a series for it's downfall. Why not blame people who don't buy the series at all?


Yes, you fuck yourself by not supporting a series you presumably enjoy in the format of most impact to the longevity of that series.

As you've stated several times, whether or not the series continues is outside the control of somebody who buys trades. So I don't see how I've "fucked myself," as you put it.


I don't want single issues either. But I want the series I enjoy to continue.

The want of a series to continue is greater than that of collected trades, for me.

You and many others (I assume), do not feel the same way. Otherwise, more would have bought such a series in issues.


I don't think that many people bought it in trades, either, to be honest.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

this explains it . you aren't a comics fan. you somewhat like reading comics but could take them or leave them. It is astounding that someone who can take or leave comics would freent a comic book discussion board.

by the way Runaways was cancelled despite high trade sales.

[xyzzy]

this explains it . you aren't a comics fan.

Pardon me, but that is BULLSHIT.

you somewhat like reading comics but could take them or leave them. It is astounding that someone who can take or leave comics would freent a comic book discussion board.

I love comics and frankly, I find this to be somewhat insulting.

by the way Runaways was cancelled despite high trade sales.

Unless there's been some news in the last couple days or so, Runaways is still being published.

[ConorKilpatrick]

this explains it . you aren't a comics fan. you somewhat like reading comics but could take them or leave them. It is astounding that someone who can take or leave comics would freent a comic book discussion board.

That's an absolutely ridiculous statement.

Just because he doesn't like comic books the same way you do doesn't mean he's not a comics fan. Absurd.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

That's an absolutely ridiculous statement.

Just because he doesn't like comic books the same way you do doesn't mean he's not a comics fan. Absurd.

Its not Absurd or Ridiculous when as he said "Whereas if I can't read it in trades, I'd rather just not read it at all. I've got a lot of different places to spend my entertainment dollars."

I am sorry if they all of a sudden stop making trades and you hate floppies soooo much and your not that attached to any comic story anyway, your not a comic fan. your a person killing time by reading a trade. Its like saying anyone who ever attends a coldplay concert is a colplay fan. no somepeople just have nothing better to do on a friday night.

Look up the definition of Fan or Fanatic. It doesn't define someone who could care less about the thing they are supposedly a fan of unless it is packaged the exact way they want.

There is a real distinction between a comic book reader and a comic book fan. you can be the former and not the latter. I wasn't questioning whether he really reads comics.

[xyzzy]

Its not Absurd or Ridiculous when as he said "Whereas if I can't read it in trades, I'd rather just not read it at all. I've got a lot of different places to spend my entertainment dollars."

I am sorry if they all of a sudden stop making trades and you hate floppies soooo much and your not that attached to any comic story anyway, your not a comic fan. your a person killing time by reading a trade. Its like saying anyone who ever attends a coldplay concert is a colplay fan. no somepeople just have nothing better to do on a friday night.

Look up the definition of Fan or Fanatic. It doesn't define someone who could care less about the thing they are supposedly a fan of unless it is packaged the exact way they want.

First of all, let me say that it is total bullshit for you to try and invalidate my opinion by claiming that I'm not a "real" comics fan.

In my opinion there's only one thing that makes a comics fan and that's a love for comics. I love comics. Maybe you think you have some sort of fanboy cred because you buy issues, but in the end, what you buy is irrelevant. It's the love for the medium that matters.

Yes, I only buy comics that I think are good and I buy them in the format that I think best suits them. To say that means that I'm not a fan is inane.

If the only comics that were avaialble had bad writing and bad art, would you buy them? Why not? Aren't you a comics fan?

[Labor_Days]

Maybe you missed the part where I said that I don't want to buy single issues.
Maybe you missed the part where I said low single issues sales often lead to cancellation. And you then agreed single issue sales determine the longevity of a series in most cases.

I should like to think one interested in continuing to read a series would want to, ahem, "support" the series in the most impactful way. Regardless of format.

I understand the whole thing.
Good.

Then you don't really care rather a series continues or not so long as it is in the format you wish to purchase?

I am assuming you personally place greater value on the format of a series then the continuation of a series. Otherwise, the format of a comic would be irrelevant to you.

Because it's annoying. And I think it's foolish to blame people who buy a series for it's downfall. Why not blame people who don't buy the series at all?

Of course, buying the trade is far more preferable to not buying the series at all. Don't think anyone argued differently.

But yes, low single issues sales are often a death sentence. Sadness for those that enjoyed a series regardless of format, I suppose.

As you've stated several times, whether or not the series continues is outside the control of somebody who buys trades. So I don't see how I've "fucked myself," as you put it.

Assuming one enjoyed the series and wished for it to continue; then being unable to read a series one enjoyed in trade (or otherwise) for there is no longer an ongoing due to low single issue sales- is what I would call "fucking yourself" out of something you enjoyed, yes.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

First of all, let me say that it is total bullshit for you to try and invalidate my opinion by claiming that I'm not a "real" comics fan.

In my opinion there's only one thing that makes a comics fan and that's a love for comics. I love comics. Maybe you think you have some sort of fanboy cred because you buy issues, but in the end, what you buy is irrelevant. It's the love for the medium that matters.

Yes, I only buy comics that I think are good and I buy them in the format that I think best suits them. To say that means that I'm not a fan is inane.

If the only comics that were avaialble had bad writing and bad art, would you buy them? Why not? Aren't you a comics fan?

Again I based that on this comment you made "Whereas if I can't read it in trades, I'd rather just not read it at all. I've got a lot of different places to spend my entertainment dollars."

You didn't stipulate if the comic was bad. You were basically saying that checkmate and other great comics could be as good as ever, but if they weren't made in trades than you'd rather not read them at all. Thats your words not mine. If you look up the definition of fan that does not qualify. Ask any fan what would happen if their favorite book was canceled in either the floppy or trade format but would contine in the other. They'll tell you their going to track it down in the other format if they have to because their a fan of the book. What you said is you would just find other things to spend your enterainment dollar. I am sorry but that is a comic reader maybe even a comics appreciator. Bt not the words of a comic fan (fanatic)

[xyzzy]

Maybe you missed the part where I said low single issues sales often lead to cancellation. And you then agreed single issue sales determine the longevity of a series in most cases.

I should like to think one interested in continuing to read a series would want to, ahem, "support" the series in the most impactful way. Regardless of format.

I want to read the series in trades. I don't want to read it in singles. That's the bottom line. Whether it continues or not is not a part of that decision.


Then you don't really care rather a series continues or not so long as it is in the format you wish to purchase?

I am assuming you personally place greater value on the format of a series then the continuation of a series. Otherwise, the format of a comic would be irrelevant to you.

That's true. The Old 97s could put out a dozen more albums on 8-track and I wouldn't buy them. Format matters. If Checkmate or whatever series continues to come out but only in singles, then it's irrelevant to me because I probably won't buy it. The only way to ensure that series get traded is to buy trades so that the publishers recognize the demand for that product.



Of course, buying the trade is far more preferable to not buying the series at all. Don't think anyone argued differently.

When you say that buying trades "hurts" a title, that doesn't sound to me like it's something you want anybody to do.


But yes, low single issues sales are often a death sentence. Sadness for those that enjoyed a series regardless of format, I suppose.
Undoubtedly true.



Assuming one enjoyed the series and wished for it to continue; then being unable to read a series one enjoyed in trade (or otherwise) for there is no longer an ongoing due to low single issue sales- is what I would call "fucking yourself" out of something you enjoyed, yes.

But see, buying issues also fucks myself out of something I enjoyed - trades. I lose both ways, but buying issues also costs me money so it's a less desirable situation than not buying it at all.

[xyzzy]

Again I based that on this comment you made "Whereas if I can't read it in trades, I'd rather just not read it at all. I've got a lot of different places to spend my entertainment dollars."

You didn't stipulate if the comic was bad. You were basically saying that checkmate and other great comics could be as good as ever, but if they weren't made in trades than you'd rather not read them at all. Thats your
words not mine.

No, I said that about Checkmate specifically. Not about "great comics" in general. After all, I read Fell in issues. I read Planetary in issues. I love comics. Whatever happens to Checkmate, there will still be comics. Checkmate I have no interest in reading in issues. It's true for something like 95% of comics series for me.

If you look up the definition of fan that does not qualify. Ask any fan what would happen if their favorite book was canceled in either the floppy or trade format but would contine in the other. They'll tell you their going to track it down in the other format if they have to because their a fan of the book. What you said is you would just find other things to spend your enterainment dollar. I am sorry but that is a comic reader maybe even a comics appreciator. Bt not the words of a comic fan (fanatic)

Whatever. You want to parade around here like king fanboy and say that someone like me shouldn't be here? Go ahead. But I love comics. I'm passionate about the medium. That's why I'm here. Feel free to ignore my opinions in the future.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

This is the last I am going to post on this topic because it is clear nobody is listening to each other.

We all like buying trades more than singles. No Adds, They look better on the shelf and you can read plenty of issues together.

That said if you are an aware consmer and you know a book is not selling enough in singles, you have a moral dilemma if you are a FAN of the book.
If that story is sooooooooo good that you feel it is important it continue you would probably want to buy some singles so the company knows there is interest in the story continuing.

If the story is not that important to you and you would just shrug your shoulders and buy a dvd and say oh well, at least I didn't have to read it in floppys..... It is probably a bit presumptuois to call yourself a FAN of that form of media.

[Labor_Days]

I want to read the series in trades. I don't want to read it in singles. That's the bottom line. Whether it continues or not is not a part of that decision.
Right. Because for you the format is of greater import than the series or it's continuation. Gotcha.

That's true. The Old 97s could put out a dozen more albums on 8-track and I wouldn't buy them. Format matters. If Checkmate or whatever series continues to come out but only in singles, then it's irrelevant to me because I probably won't buy it. The only way to ensure that series get traded is to buy trades so that the publishers recognize the demand for that product.
Ah, that's a real shame.

Though I don't disagree that formatting matters. It's a matter of what you value more.

I would rather listen to something great, even if it is not my ideal, then deny myself ever listening to something again.

When you say that buying trades "hurts" a title, that doesn't sound to me like it's something you want anybody to do.

Hm. Are you speaking in the general sense here?

Just to be clear, I never said trade sales hurt a book or took Six's comment seriously. To be honest, I think he was having a bit fun being hyperbolic.

But in any case, of course, buying trades is good for a book. Now is it as determining a factor as decent issue sales in keeping a series alive?

We both agreed that is not the case as singles drive ongoings from the big two most of the time. I think this is especially true for niche titles such as Checkmate.

But see, buying issues also fucks myself out of something I enjoyed - trades. I lose both ways, but buying issues also costs me money so it's a less desirable situation than not buying it at all.
Again, it's a matter of what you value most.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

Whatever. You want to parade around here like king fanboy and say that someone like me shouldn't be here? Go ahead. But I love comics. I'm passionate about the medium. That's why I'm here. Feel free to ignore my opinions in the future.

I never said you shouldn't be here. I said I was surprised someone who makes a statement like the one you made would waste their time in a comics discussion forum. It does seem like this was all to drum up a flame war.
because nobody tried to talk you out of your buying habits. we just stated that a larger group of people waiting for the trade combine with the big two not focusing on trade sales the same way they do floppies will probably get Checkmate canceled.

I am not trying to be king fanboy. As you can see by my past posts I have a fairly small pull list and only recently got into DC comics. I am just saying that some of the comments you made about how easy it would be to see a book you claimed to love get canceled rather than ever picking up a floppy flies in the face of words like "passionate" and "fan"

[xyzzy]

I would rather listen to something great, even if it is not my ideal, then deny myself ever listening to something again.

Just because I don't buy 8-tracks or singles doesn't mean that I've sworn of music or comics. The choice here isn't buy this or never enjoy the medium again. It's buy this or buy something else that's also really good.


Hm. Are you speaking in the general sense here?

Just to be clear, I never said trade sales hurt a book or took Six's comment seriously. To be honest, I think he was having a bit fun being hyperbolic.

Jonathan Gordon said it somewhere earlier in the thread.

But in any case, of course, buying trades is good for a book. Now is it as determining a factor as decent issue sales in keeping a series alive?

We both agreed that is not the case as singles drive ongoings from the big two most of the time. I think this is especially true for niche titles such as Checkmate.

Again, it's a matter of what you value most.

Agreed.

[Jimski]

You never know which ones are going to turn into fights.

[kahunablair]

You never know which ones are going to turn into fights.

Seriously!

[xyzzy]

I never said you shouldn't be here. I said I was surprised someone who makes a statement like the one you made would waste their time in a comics discussion forum. It does seem like this was all to drum up a flame war.
because nobody tried to talk you out of your buying habits. we just stated that a larger group of people waiting for the trade combine with the big two not focusing on trade sales the same way they do floppies will probably get Checkmate canceled.

I am not trying to be king fanboy. As you can see by my past posts I have a fairly small pull list and only recently got into DC comics. I am just saying that some of the comments you made about how easy it would be to see a book you claimed to love get canceled rather than ever picking up a floppy flies in the face of words like "passionate" and "fan"

For the record, I don't know that I ever said I loved Checkmate. I said that I love comics.

I think Labor and I had a missed communication early on that led to some confusion, but right now you're just pissing me off. Why don't you just take my fucking word that I love comics and move on to other issues instead of persisting in trying to question my reason for being here.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

Jonathan Gordon said it somewhere earlier in the thread.

I never said it was the buying trades part that hurts the title. its the not buying issues part that does.

[Labor_Days]

Just because I don't buy 8-tracks or singles doesn't mean that I've sworn of music or comics. The choice here isn't buy this or never enjoy the medium again. It's buy this or buy something else that's also really good.

Oh no. I didn't take it as you swearing off the medium (though I see Gordon intimated as much) altogether.

Rather I was taking up your example of no longer enjoying the Old 97's should the format not be ideal. I'd rather continue to listen to that specific band if that was what I enjoyed. For that band, series or artist, etc- is of greater import to me than format.

Forgive me, I see how I was unclear up above.

Jonathan Gordon said it somewhere earlier in the thread.

Heh. I wasn't paying much attention to J. Gordon's argument in this thread. I was speaking in regard to our conversation.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

For the record, I don't know that I ever said I loved Checkmate. I said that I love comics.

I think Labor and I had a missed communication early on that led to some confusion, but right now you're just pissing me off. Why don't you just take my fucking word that I love comics and move on to other issues instead of persisting in trying to question my reason for being here.

dude , I have never questioned your reason for being here. If I go to the bank tomorrow and see fred flinstone I am going to be surprised to see him there. But I'm not going to question his right to open a checking acount.

All I said is I was surprised , based on your own comments that you would spend the time needed to keep up that argument in a comic book message board.

[xyzzy]

dude , I have never questioned your reason for being here.

So what was "It does seem like this was all to drum up a flame war." all about if not to question my motives for posting here?

[xyzzy]

Oh no. I didn't take it as you swearing off the medium (though I see Gordon intimated as much) altogether.

Rather I was taking up your example of no longer enjoying the Old 97's should the format not be ideal. I'd rather continue to listen to that specific band if that was what I enjoyed. For that band, series or artist, etc- is of greater import to me than format.


See, I always figure that as good as that band or comic or whatever was, there's sure to be something else just as good, if not better out there.

It's not that I care about format more than quality. But to me the format impacts the quality. I enjoy a comic less when I read it in issues over the course of 6 months instead of as a trade in one sitting. That reduction in quality means that it's that much more likley that there's something better to spend my money on.

That's why the comics I buy in issues are, for the most part, one shots, because the quality impact is lesser.

[JonathanD.Gordon]

So what was "It does seem like this was all to drum up a flame war." all about if not to question my motives for posting here?

That wasn't about questioning your right to be here. The fact is if anybody reads the summation of what you have said in this argument. I and Labor were speaking of Checkmate in specific. When you fight that much with people about how much of a fan you are and then split hairs and say it the end I love comics but I never said I love Checkmate. Guess what we are in a checkmate topic in the forum. Had you said that from the beggining there would have been absolutely nodispute.

If in that initial comment you said If they stopped publishing checkmate in trade I wouldn't get the singles because I have many other places to spend my entertainment dollar. But you didn't do so. you did make it seem as though you cold have quit the comics all together if it wasn't a trade form.

Again we are in a checkmate section. we we're stating that it would help chckmate if people who bought it solely in trade bought issues. You either didn't understand that or for five pages of a thread played dumb on the subject to keep us more and more heatedly trying to explain it to you.

That is the same as someone going into a OMD thread and railing about joe Quesada ruining spiderman and then six hours later saying "I don't really love spiderman. I read it from time to time."

[JonathanD.Gordon]

That's why the comics I buy in issues are, for the most part, one shots, because the quality impact is lesser.

I agree with this. It is why My pull is relitively short. Unfortunately a lot of writers can't seem to do a one and done anymore. I only buy issues of stuff that is borderline about to get cancelled that I want to stick around. That and stuff like UA that I can't wait for the next installment of.

You know this will all be settled by more powerful people than us. my guess is they meet in the middle somewhere and it becomes a straight to trade market with four issues per trade coming out ever three months and the trades will include ads in some form so the companys can still get ad revinue

[xyzzy]

That wasn't about questioning your right to be here.

No, it was questioning my reason for being here. And I quote: "dude , I have never questioned your reason for being here." Which was the entire point of this last post of yours. Questioning my motives instead of discussing the topic at hand.

Regardless, I'm comfortable with the way I've conducted myself in this thread. And I think that your remarks attacking my status as a comics fan were the low point.

[xyzzy]

You know this will all be settled by more powerful people than us.

Not really. I'm not a libertarian, but market forces will determine what gets put on the market. I mean sure, the actual decision will be made by some publishing folks (who I'm not really sure I'd classify as all that powerful), but they respond to the market. If people bought up one-off issues like there was no tomorrow, you bet that we'd see more of them. Whatever there's a demand for, the market will, eventually, produce. Again, this is why I buy trades. I prefer them and I want more of them. By buying them, I'm communicating with the almighty dollar to the publishers saying "make more stuff like this so I can buy it." Vote with your wallet, as they say.

[Six Gun]

So apparently Trautmen was supposed to take over Checkmate and then got the shaft (http://mercuryeric.livejournal.com/173326.html). Also, the shake up does seem to have something to do with sales.