Health/beauty standards for humans breeding? (Caution: Potential for heavy debate)

[ariastar]

Okay, so I've been in some debates lately, pretty damned heated, about animal breeding standards.

-Some people think only dogs who win conformation shows (think Westminster) should be bred as anything else means the dog isn't up to standards. This also would mean not allowing a golden retriever, for instance, to breed solely for having a nose that wasn't solid black. Show dogs are about how they show and how well they fit into a mold, nothing about intelligence, health, or temperament.
-Some think to ignore shows, just make sure that the dog has had vigorous health testing, down to the genetic level. Any medical problems or conditions anywhere in the dog's lineage should bar that entire lineage from every breeding, no matter how minor the problem or whether it's even genetic.
-Some think just having AKC papers is all that matters.
-Some think that breeding whatever with whatever isn't a big deal, more mutts for all.
-Some think ALL dogs should be fixed, ALL of them, no matter what, regardless of the fact that fixing ALL dogs will mean no more dogs in another 15 years.


Naturally the debates have gotten heated, and I've been the most attacked because I don't fit into any one category.

At one point I shot back and asked, "What if humans were held to the same standards? If there are already more children on this planet than homes, why not limit the number of people who can have children and tell the rest to go to orphanages? Why not allow only beauty pageant winners to have children since they fit into some superficial mold of physical perfection? What if your grandmother being diagnosed with arthritis last week meant you weren't allowed to have children because it means there's "too high" of a chance that your child would get arthritis?"

This evolved, on several online communities, into debated on just that, rather than animal breeding.


So I put it to you, fellow-Rev3ers. With the "human overpopulation," should there be limitations on who can have children? Would it be right to impose limits? If so, who has the right to decide and how can it be enforced? If there should be NO limits, should this mean that even kids should be allowed to have babies, if having a law that underage sex is illegal is considered a limit of sorts?

[rabidbadger]

This is a discussion board, not a lite brite! ;)


http://www.theplaymakers.com/welcome/archives/lite.jpg

[ericjosepi]

Have you seen Gattaca recently? All these questions are pretty much put forward in that movie.

To keep the topic train going:

Look. Having a kid is a retarded amount of responsibility. Obviously kids shouldn't be having kids. I'm not sure if underaged sex is illegal here or is just morally frowned upon so there's really no limit on that front.

As for how your Orwellian situation can be enforced, genetic screening and overall genetic fuckery until the baby is what we would call super human.

[kowgod]

I seriously can't read that.

[ryudo]

No thanks to that idea as I saw Gattaca.

And as for dog shows I think those are the most pretencious piles of useless shit ever for an event as it just makes me think of every rich snob stereotype in the book.

And FTR I do love animals but somethings are too far extreme one way or another about many subjects about animals.(I won't get into the specifics right now..maybe later)

[ariastar]

All back to pink now!

[rabidbadger]

No thanks to that idea as I saw Gattaca.

And as for dog shows I think those are the most pretencious piles of useless shit ever for an event as it just makes me think of every rich snob stereotype in the book.



I am with you on that one.

[kronos6948]

In regards to animal breeding, there are plenty of health problems inherent in breeding purebreds. It's akin to inbreeding. Bulldogs having breathing issues is one of them. People who are discriminatory against other types of dogs because that's not the breed they want kind of bother me. Sure, I'd like to have a bulldog, but if I was ever responsible enough to raise a dog (and home enough to do so), I would go and save one from being put to sleep.

As far as human breeding conditions go, just look at China and Nazi Germany for your examples of controlled breeding, and the problems it causes.

You also cross over into a different debate when you talk about underage sex being illegal. Since underage sex does not mean that the persons involved will be having a child, it's a totally different topic. The reason why that law is there is that according to law, persons under a certain age don't have the mental faculties to realize the consequences of having sex. Therefore, it isn't a means of population control.

What the real issue is that a lot of people even over the age of consent don't think about the responsibility of having a child.

In my opinion, having children isn't something that the law should regulate. As far as I'm concerned, if humanity wants to breed itself to death, then that's the way we become extinct. Either that or they'll find a way to survive.

Call me a pessimist, but by the looks of things now, the human race will be finite. I don't want to hear about how we're destroying the planet, because the planet will still be here after we're long gone. Sure, it may not be habitable to US, but earth is not "sick". Every living creature on this earth is a parasite to it in one way or another. There is nothing that these living creatures do on earth that are a benefit to the planet itself. The trees don't hold it together. Get rid of all the trees, and sure, breathable oxygen will be depleted, and living creatures who depend on it will die. The earth will survive. Until of course, our sun goes supernova and destroys our solar system.

Now, if you're talking about the survival of the human race, that's a different topic all together. Controlling the birthrate isn't going to help propagate the species, which is what we should be doing anyway. To survive ultimately as a species, we have to learn to use the brains we were given. We need to stop worrying if our neighboring countries are going to fight us. We need to put our heads together to find other habitable planets, find ways to get there within a small amount of time, and colonize.

[phatlip12]

Keep it how it is now.

[techliveadmin]

There should be no limit as to how many kids one can have!

Only married people should have sex.

Education in schools is the best defense.

[masherscf]

Humans are NOT dogs. Dogs are special and even unique in the animal kingdom. Humans breed cats, beef cattle, chickens and even pigs. None of those animals enjoy the variety of shapes and sizes that dogs do...not even close. Have you ever seen a short, long, wiener cow with big floppy ears? I think not. Most dogs breeds are less than two-hundred years old. Humans have been working on other agricultural stock for much longer. Dogs have a uniquely mailable genome.

Unfortunately, this makes dog breeders susceptible to this eugenics bullshit. It makes them want to play god.

Most pure-bred dogs are not genetically viable anyway. Close breeding and breeding for physical characteristics causes genetic disease. It's the same with humans. It just takes a close look at the royal families from nineteenth century Europe to convince yourself that breeding people like dogs is a bad idea.

But, why stop at health and beauty? Why not throw in intelligence? How about academic accomplishment or finical success? How about just plain not letting people have kids who don't have the money to support them? Does this sound monstrous yet? How would you enforce such a ban? How about mandatory long-term chemical castration of you children when they reach puberty?

What about the population problem? Strict human breeding standards would certainly solve that. Japan has both strict immigration rules and strong social prohibitions against racial interbreeding. The population is also increasingly less fertile because women are waiting to have children or not having them at all for professional or finical reasons. The result, Japan is dying. If the current trend continues, the population in Japan will cease to exists in less than two-hundred years. Northern European countries with strict immigration policies are experiencing the same effect. So is the United States. If it wasn't for immigration, our population would be shrinking as well. Fears about an over populated world are based on a 1960's way of viewing the world and don't really reflect modernity. Third world places like parts Africa and Asia do have too many children. But, as these places become modernized, that will change.

Why must any human problems be solved with denying liberty. Starting a family is a basic human right for any person. We don't need more selective breeding. We need everyone having kids, ugly, smart, stupid, pretty, skinny and fat having children in order to protect the gene pool.

Nice graphic
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/40/Japanese_Birth_and_Death_rates.png

[phatlip12]

Only married people should have sex.


You gota take the car on a test drive before you buy it. ;)

[masherscf]

You gota take the car on a test drive before you buy it. ;)

I love you man. You gotta check under the hood...

[techliveadmin]

What if the car has something wrong with it and you don't know? carfax.com report anyone?
Maybe it has had a test drive or two before.......

[masherscf]

What if the car has something wrong with it and you don't know? carfax.com report anyone?
Maybe it has had a test drive or two before.......

You're really not very good at this. But, practice makes perfect...

[phatlip12]

What if the car has something wrong with it and you don't know? carfax.com report anyone?
Maybe it has had a test drive or two before.......

A whole report! Sounds like there was more then one or two test drives if a whole report is available.

Ok, I'll stop now.

:D

[ericjosepi]

Education in schools is the best defense.

Abstinence only education does not work.

[techliveadmin]

lol yeh we probably should, btw phatlip, didn't you go to that used car dealership not to far from your home, last weekend? I saw how you were checking out that mustang, careful I hear she's had alot of test drives recently......

[ryudo]

People who go without sex until married is a bad idea as some people are just not fit to be married or struggle to even meet people and that can often lead them in perversion or worse in some cases like rapists as the longer one goes without the more desperate one can get and warped...it's like being dunked under water and trying not to breathe.

Some Mormon college students have done such odd things as going to vegas loping have sex then a vegas drive through divorce..seriously then of course the more sane ones who just do it.

[masherscf]

Some Mormon college students have done such odd things as going to vegas loping have sex then a vegas drive through divorce..seriously then of course the more sane ones who just do it.


Fellatio is much less expensive...

[ericjosepi]

Some Mormon college students have done such odd things as going to vegas loping have sex then a vegas drive through divorce..seriously then of course the more sane ones who just do it.


Off-topic Mormon joke to lighten the mood!

So... I was at this party and man, it was just retarded. Like a big orgy going on in the other room. I reached into the fridge, grabbed a beer and when the Mormon chicks heard me crack it, they put their clothes on and went home.

[ryudo]

lol yeh we probably should, btw phatlip, didn't you go to that used car dealership not to far from your home, last weekend? I saw how you were checking out that mustang, careful I hear she's had alot of test drives recently......

Routine maintenance and doctor check ups married or not.

[acidburn]

Humans shouldn't be held to a breeding standard. Having rules about who can have children and who can't would be ridiculous. People who have serious genetic defects probably would decide on their own to prevent passing them onto their kids. But that is choice a person has to make for themselves and shouldn't be legislated in any way.

[ryudo]

Fellatio is much less expensive...

not like they care these kids are often over achievers with tons of money.

[masherscf]

not like they care these kids are often over achievers with tons of money.

Sounds like a bad Brittany Spears binge to me...

[techliveadmin]

OMG, u spelled BRITNEYS name wrong, maybe u'll have that weird guy who loves her stalking you now.

*LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE lol!*

[masherscf]

OMG, u spelled BRITNEYS name wrong, maybe u'll have that weird guy who loves her stalking you now.

*LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE lol!*

I geez, you're right. I mistaken her for a province in France.

[ericjosepi]

I geez, you're right. I mistaken her for a province in France.

Bretange?

[masherscf]

Bretange?

I guess that's what they call it now... I guess the residents of that place don't like being reminded that their forbears were kicked out of Britannia by the Anglo-Saxons.

[autodas]

Eugenics is a leftist idea.

[tokenuser]

What if the car has something wrong with it and you don't know? carfax.com report anyone?Something like this (http://www.vcxd.com/product/trinidad-and-tobago-plaintiff-records.html)?

You see, you have just contradicted yourself as well. Living together is an extended test drive, and you can pretty much figure out if there is something wrong with it in that time. Not enough Americans live together first (stupid moral majority), and wonder why the average marriage ends in divorce after 5 years.

Hell my wife and I lived together for longer than that (and have since been married just as long again) ... and while I know she had been test driven before, I had taken a couple of cars out for a spin myself first.

Enough with the crappy car analogies OK?

Breeding standards? IF the world hits a natural resources crunch, then a Gattaca situation will likely come into play - especially as the current population gets older and doesn't die off fast enough.

Limiting the number of children? Good thing.
Discrimination by DNA? Bad thing ... but it would help eliminate some genetic diseases from the world.

[masherscf]

Eugenics is a leftist idea.

Most people interested in racial purity would probably disagree with you. In fact, they'd probably beat the crap out of you for suggesting it.


Limiting the number of children? Good thing.


What limit would you suggest? Most industrialized nations have a reproductive rates of just around two children per women. That includes women who don't have any children at all.

Scary graph...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Fertility_rate.jpg

[rabidbadger]

Then why did leftist Roosevelt defeat the Eugenic Nazis?

[ericjosepi]

Eugenics is a leftist idea.

Nazi Eugenics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics)

Yep. Because Fascism and Communism are the same thing. This is No Child Left Behind at it's best. Back in your box, monkey.

[rabidbadger]

Oh sure... Aria starts a tempest in a teapot knowing full well she wont be able to reply for the rest of the day! ;)

[masherscf]

Then why did leftist Roosevelt defeat the Eugenic Nazis?

Don't forget Stalin. Stalin was a leftist.

[ericjosepi]

Don't forget Stalin. Stalin was a leftist.

Stalin was a nutjob. He was so far left he turned the corner and came right.

[ryudo]

Damn Nascar.

[rabidbadger]

Are we sure we got the definition of facism right? Facism is way "right" but never correct.

[skyz]

we had to watch gattaca for a philosophy class

the point for that class being the inner determination can trump outer determination

educated women tend to have less children so education for women limits the number of children and also improves the quality of those children's lives which improves the lives of their children and so on and so forth

women outnumber men in college enrollment and graduation including in the professions of law and medicine

the science of beauty shows that what we consider attractive is the result of the combination of good genes and good health so there is a natural selection of better dna built into the program already

when you think about it the existence of every person alive is the result of a long unbroken chain of successful dna

[skyz]

Aria starts a tempest in a teapot

everyone needs a hobby :D

[rabidbadger]

Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: patriotism, nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism)

[tokenuser]

the science of beauty shows that what we consider attractive is the result of the combination of good genes and good health so there is a natural selection of better dna built into the program already

when you think about it the existence of every person alive is the result of a long unbroken chain of successful dnaUnfortunately "beauty" or "intelligence" are not always the deciding factor in people having children. There are a lot of people swimming at the shallow end of the gene pool that just keep popping out kids.

[rabidbadger]

everyone needs a hobby :D

hahahaha

[ryudo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8&feature=related

[rabidbadger]

Damn Nascar.

damn that cracked me up.