Episode 54 - The Gauntlet [disscussion]

[taozoo4u]

Is 21 a bust? Ninja Gaiden DS tests our skills on the stylus. Plus, we tap The Wire, and form a more perfect union with John Adams.

watch here (http://revision3.com/trs/ninja/)

[radmax]

The flipped player on Rev3 today is kind of annoying.

It's a lame joke. I like reading what Steve puts up.

[nobodysleeps]

I've been waiting for this episode for my entire life. Can't wait to see The Wire discussion. Don't care if they like it or not, as long as they have a good discussion about it.

[taozoo4u]

I feel like i should send Jeff my PSP

[damnedeyez]

I feel like i should send Jeff my PSP

I was thinking about it when I was looking at getting a slim...but considering that a sticky analog stick was part of what me to finally get one would make me feel guilty for sending it. (Not to mention, I've no idea where the AC adapter or spare memory card are...and I like the idea of reverting it to use as homebrew if possible.)

[taozoo4u]

I was thinking about it when I was looking at getting a slim...but considering that a sticky analog stick was part of what me to finally get one would make me feel guilty for sending it. (Not to mention, I've no idea where the AC adapter or spare memory card are...and I like the idea of reverting it to use as homebrew if possible.)

I just don't use it and now it is a paper weight

[damnedeyez]

I just don't use it and now it is a paper weight

Well, it'd be going to a good cause...of course, then they might review PSP games and make you want to play some...

[mebe]

Awesome, 'best' intro

[outlaw]

It would be awesome if the lads would be able to get their hands on a PSP. More so than the Final Fantasy: Crisis Core review, it would be awesome to here Jeffs opinion on God of War: Chains of Olympus.

[redsox786]

could not agree more. if i had the $$$, I'd buy PSPs for all the guys, including Steve!

p.s.

i completed god of war: chains of olympus, which was freakin' awesome, and am now playing Crisis Core, which is pretty amazing also.

[gonzooo]

Great episode, as always...

As for the email question:
I usually spend way too much time trying to figure out what to do. Sometimes it sort of nullifies all the fun I had before I got stuck and then I start the fun cycle over again.

The problem is at its worse when the game doesn't give you room to improve your situation even a little until you find the correct solution, I find. I like games that give me a little bit of advancement for a little bit of solving. The "Hitman" games are a good example of this. Each level is designed so you make little bits of progress and you can improve on each one (especially on the highest difficulty setting where you can't save; which makes every step about doing it as good as possible). I'm playing "Splinter Cell: Double Agent" right now, and like the "Hitman" games you make small bits of headway slowly, with room for improvement every step of the way.

The problem I have with the "messiah" solution (i.e. it saves the world in one big step) isn't enormous; and it probably won't make me stop playing the game by itself, but I think the alternatives to that model are much better.

[xykobas3rd]

Great episode once again..

My 2 cents to the FAQ discussion:
I realized how bad I was at games when I played Shadow of the Colossus. I had to look up how to kill about 7 of them because I couldnt figure it out. But that was such a good game it was still hella fun actually executing the kills. Which says a lot about the game.
"Having said that", I know I would have enjoyed the game even more had I figured them all out on my own.

[autodas]

Just because Obama can speak presidentially, it doesn't make him qualified to hold the highest office in the country and can certainly not be compared to the Founding Fathers who would be rolling their graves if they heard some of things coming out of the mouth of a socialist.

[kunstadt]

New favorite intro!!
I don't know why I find overreacting so damn funny. I just do.

[captds9e]

Glad to see you guys are going to check out Babylon 5. One of my favorite Sci-Fi series. However a warning

The first time watching S1 there will be points you will get bored out of your mind. I did, but a friend kept on me to watch it as I didn't start watching till they replayed it on Sci-Fi years back. S1 has some bad episodes, but a few really good ones. Stick with it, as here are many little things from S1, that start building up in S2, which builds to the fantastic Seasons 3/4, and a great 2nd half of S5 (first half not so much). On a second viewing of S1 it's better as you pick up more the 2nd time around. Just hang in there, as it gets MUCH better

[lstone]

They used my background!!!!

But mine was the B-side?

[jdogg2289]

Just because Obama can speak presidentially, it doesn't make him qualified to hold the highest office in the country and can certainly not be compared to the Founding Fathers who would be rolling their graves if they heard some of things coming out of the mouth of a socialist.

A few things to say: "Qualified" is an interesting word: he's formally qualified: the constitution says he could run. A native of this country who's 35 and a registered sex offender COULD run. But of course, there are these informal requirements to run (political record, etc.).

That being said... Jeff isn't endorsing a candidate here: he's saying that words are what this country was founded on, and a candidate is getting attacked for it.

As for "John Adams" itself, it's not in my piechart of love yet. The only other HBO miniseries I've watched is "Band of Brothers," and it may be the subject that pushes it into the love territory. I agree with Alex on the shooting quality; and there's a scene that's a one take, where Adams is rushing through the city that made me say that's almost on the level of "Children of Men." It brings early American history and grittiness together.

[liebe]

I sort of wish the guys had discussed the casting controversy surrounding 21. According to the great wikipedia:

"In September 2005, Kevin Der of The Tech wrote "During the talk, Mezrich mentioned the stereotypical Hollywood casting process — though most of the actual blackjack team was composed of Asian males, a studio executive involved in the casting process said that most of the film’s actors would be white, with perhaps an Asian female.""

and the blog AngryAsianMan:

"You see, in real life, the blackjack team was a group mostly made up of Asian American students. This was actually advantageous to their strategy, as it happens, because Asian dudes winning big money at the casinos apparently aren't quite as conspicuous as white dudes who win big at the casinos. That's just the way it is."

It would have been interesting to see the guys' reaction to this, since it sort of plays off of some of the dynamics in the Tropic Thunder trailer. Personally, it sours the already watered down version of the original story.

[aaronmt_]

My take on FAQS, specifically gamefaqs.

- I also had to look up how to pass the dude on the bridge in Ninja Gaiden for DS, who knew you had to yell into the mic to wake him up. Brilliant idea.

Do you think there is an exception when these unique puzzles in games become so bizarre that one is forced to seek aid from elsewhere?

I remember using FAQS back in the day to beat Maniac Mansion as well as using Prima's Game Guides to beat the water temple in Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time. The puzzles were just so odd.

My .02

[nibbs2]

I think that Alex has the right idea with FAQ's. Maybe he gives up too quickly but that's just what his frustration level is. Like what is the point in contiuing to keep trying and failing over and over again if it stopped being fun 30 minutes ago? Especially if your loving a game and know there's more fun coming!

[toolwerx]

I can't believe how biased the tv shows sections was. The Wire is CLEARLY a better show than The Shield. The Wire isnt realistic?! Life isnt sugar coated. The Wire is a very good depiction of the way drug dealers, politics, and the PD really work and are indirectly connected. And the Press later on in the series. 9 out of 10 people will agree.............I swear it resembled a debate with a fanboy.

[nobodysleeps]

I can't believe how biased the tv shows sections was. The Wire is CLEARLY a better show than The Shield. The Wire isnt realistic?! Life isnt sugar coated. The Wire is a very good depiction of the way drug dealers, politics, and the PD really work and are indirectly connected. And the Press later on in the series. 9 out of 10 people will agree.............I swear it resembled a debate with a fanboy.

While I wouldn't go that far. I do really think that they did The Wire segment little justice. It started to go sour when Jeff made the segment as to why the show is not as good as The Shield 'and here's why'. Then it was just Jeff saying all the stuff that was bad about The Wire instead of what was good about The Wire.

I can respect his decision on the wire...but after watching this episode. I really just want to have a one on one with the guys and really talk about the wire.

Out of all the things talked about I wish this, but I get over it. But The Wire is just so important to me, and since I really consider Jeff, Dan, Alex, and Steve to be friends in some weird way, I really would like to talk to them about the show, where we don't have to worry about spoilers or whatever.

Maybe on XBL or something.

[toolwerx]

Yeah, true. And you could see how Alex wanted to interrupt him whenever something was said that he didnt agree with, but for the sake of good programming, kept it to himself. Definitely a discussion to have without the cameras rolling.

[tsmith15]

Two things.

Firstly, I only use FAQs when I am frustrated because I don't feel satisfaction from solving them after ages of time, so why not get past it.

Secondly, I think I'm going to have to step in here, as someone who has never seen ANY of The Shield OR The Wire. If anybody cares, I could go on a personal mission to watch The Shield and The Wire and deliver my verdict.

Also, from what I heard in this episode, it sounded like The Wire was a lot like Zodiac.

[hepcat]

man, Parker's really let herself go...

[fancyburrito]

While I wouldn't go that far. I do really think that they did The Wire segment little justice. It started to go sour when Jeff made the segment as to why the show is not as good as The Shield 'and here's why'. Then it was just Jeff saying all the stuff that was bad about The Wire instead of what was good about The Wire.

I can respect his decision on the wire...but after watching this episode. I really just want to have a one on one with the guys and really talk about the wire.
I agree with you and toolwerx, although I'm not sure I would go as far either. To me it seemed like Jeff almost watched the show with a narrow vision to compare it to The Shield (I know that's probably not true, but that's how I felt the review came off as). I also think he oversimplified/understated a lot of elements about The Wire just for the sake of praising The Shield. I was actually pretty let down, not because he didn't like the show, but I really want to have my view on the show challenged, however, I just couldn't connect with his points.

[damnedeyez]

Regarding Jeff's comments on The Wire:

I'd imagine it's at least partly the result of being told that "Your favourite show isn't the best, 'This' is" numerous times (at least, I swear I've read it said in similar words in the forums.) Looking at it that way, I can see why there was at least some comparison.


Regarding FAQs/Guides:

Personally, I think that whatever allows a person to enjoy the game (so long as it's not affecting other's enjoyment) is fine. If that's working from a walkthrough or using cheats...go for it (again, unless it's affecting others.)

I tend to use guides/FAQs when the frustration of a point starts overpowering the enjoyment. I do prefer to do it myself, but at some point it's check a faq or throw a controller.

[tlazaroff]

Glad to see you guys are going to check out Babylon 5. One of my favorite Sci-Fi series. However a warning

The first time watching S1 there will be points you will get bored out of your mind. I did, but a friend kept on me to watch it as I didn't start watching till they replayed it on Sci-Fi years back. S1 has some bad episodes, but a few really good ones. Stick with it, as here are many little things from S1, that start building up in S2, which builds to the fantastic Seasons 3/4, and a great 2nd half of S5 (first half not so much). On a second viewing of S1 it's better as you pick up more the 2nd time around. Just hang in there, as it gets MUCH better


This is very true, and yes, B5 is one of the greatest shows of ALL TIME. You do, however, have to stick with it until it gets somewhat interesting around disc 2-3 in Season 1. Watch the B5 movie "The Gathering" before you start the series, thats the actual pilot of the series. I am so excited to hear what these guys thought of B5. A great source which makes your first B5 experience all the better is the Lurker's Guide (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/eplist.html). Be sure to only read each episode link after you've viewed it. You will begin to see how intricate this show is.. things that happen in season 1 don't get resolved until close to the series finale.. its very similar to Lost in that respect. It makes the show that much better though, if you ask me.

Edit: Oh yeah, if you make it though all 5 seasons (not hard, quite enjoyable) as well as the movie "In The Beginning" (watch it after season 4), you will understand why this show has one of the best series finales of all time.. its a tear-jerker too :(

[trsjeff]

I agree with you and toolwerx, although I'm not sure I would go as far either. To me it seemed like Jeff almost watched the show with a narrow vision to compare it to The Shield (I know that's probably not true, but that's how I felt the review came off as). I also think he oversimplified/understated a lot of elements about The Wire just for the sake of praising The Shield.

I promise you, this is not what happened at all. Let me be clear once again (I said it already on the show): I believe the Wire to be a VERY, VERY good show. I would have made the same comments about its shortcomings whether or not I was comparing it to the Shield. Since it is so good, I think the shortcomings stood out for me all the more. I knew Dan and Alex loved the show, so I assumed my voice was going to be the one that pointed out the flaws. Plus, I thought it would be fun to bring up The Shield, since so many people have compared the shows. I REALLY, REALLY liked The Wire. Really. But it is kind of fun to have favorites, right? It is just not in the same ballpark as the Shield for me. (Again, FOR ME)

If anyone wants to compare positions on The Wire independent of The Shield, I'd be happy to clarify my points.

-Jeff

[fancyburrito]

I promise you, this is not what happened at all. Let me be clear once again (I said it already on the show): I believe the Wire to be a VERY, VERY good show. I would have made the same comments about its shortcomings whether or not I was comparing it to the Shield. Since it is so good, I think the shortcomings stood out for me all the more. I knew Dan and Alex loved the show, so I assumed my voice was going to be the one that pointed out the flaws. Plus, I thought it would be fun to bring up The Shield, since so many people have compared the shows. I REALLY, REALLY liked The Wire. Really. But it is kind of fun to have favorites, right? It is just not in the same ballpark as the Shield for me. (Again, FOR ME)

If anyone wants to compare positions on The Wire independent of The Shield, I'd be happy to clarify my points.

-Jeff
Just to clarify, I know you're not single minded like that, in fact you're easily the host I connect with most. I just feel like The Wire and The Shield are not comparable on most things.

One thing you mentioned in the review is that the show is not so much about the characters as it is the system. This seems to be where the show lost points for you, as you felt the characters were two dimensional. This is where I would disagree. I think that the show is just as much about the characters as it is the system. As David Simon has stated over and over, The Wire's main theme is "You can't change the world, only yourself". Over the course of each season, or for the characters that last long enough, the show you see them change as a result of their efforts. Would you mind elaborating on that part? I think potentially some characters might not seem fleshed out because it is such a large cast and an ensemble, but I was just wondering what characters in particular you found lacking and why.

Another point of interest: you mentioned that Omar and Bubbles weren't really believable despite liking them. Both characters are a composite of actual Baltimore natives, and Omar's jump from a 4 story building actually happened (2 stories higher though in real life). I'm not claiming either of those facts make them more dimensional, just stating for interest only.

[jekul]

Anyone else notice that dan is wearing a Shirt.Woot.com tshirt (http://shirt.woot.com/Forums/ViewPost.aspx?PostID=2037961)??

[hepcat]

Anyone else notice that dan is wearing a Shirt.Woot.com tshirt (http://shirt.woot.com/Forums/ViewPost.aspx?PostID=2037961)??

That's where I recognized it from......thanks.

[toolwerx]

I promise you, this is not what happened at all. Let me be clear once again (I said it already on the show): I believe the Wire to be a VERY, VERY good show. I would have made the same comments about its shortcomings whether or not I was comparing it to the Shield. Since it is so good, I think the shortcomings stood out for me all the more. I knew Dan and Alex loved the show, so I assumed my voice was going to be the one that pointed out the flaws. Plus, I thought it would be fun to bring up The Shield, since so many people have compared the shows. I REALLY, REALLY liked The Wire. Really. But it is kind of fun to have favorites, right? It is just not in the same ballpark as the Shield for me. (Again, FOR ME)

If anyone wants to compare positions on The Wire independent of The Shield, I'd be happy to clarify my points.

-Jeff

OK Jeff, you said Bubbles was a two dimensional character. How is that so? He had his internal conflicts and there were points were me as a viewer pretty much gave up on him and his character's integrity. Also, you did play the realism card.........come on.....The Shield? Yes its fun, and yes i totally understand where you're coming from when you say "...it is kind of fun to have favorites....." but when you have a show where your role is to give an unbiased opinion (atleast i think that's what you'll shoot for) and give valid artistic points on whether somethings good being games or shows or movies, its just disappointing as a viewer.

To be honest, I guess The Wire was kind of one of my "favorites" so just felt let down........a tad. Still love the show. Still will keep watching.



edit: didnt see the earlier reply to Jeff by burrito........better written arguments than mine.

[cooljammer00]

I'm watching the episode now, and let me just say my man-love for Jeff has grown with his little "could care less" bit. I hate when people say they "could care less". It makes no sense, and Alex does do it alot. And I cringe each time.

Grammar nazis FTW! Someone used the word "conversating" today, and I wanted to cry.

[trsjeff]

One thing you mentioned in the review is that the show is not so much about the characters as it is the system. This seems to be where the show lost points for you, as you felt the characters were two dimensional. This is where I would disagree. I think that the show is just as much about the characters as it is the system. As David Simon has stated over and over, The Wire's main theme is "You can't change the world, only yourself". Over the course of each season, or for the characters that last long enough, the show you see them change as a result of their efforts.


Who changes? Bubbles? Okay, well, he cleans himself up. But did he really change? No, he was always the junkie with the heart of gold. In the last season, we hear that he used to steal from his sister - but we never, never saw him do ANYTHING that was even remotely dishonorable. He can't imagine that guy. What we saw was a great, fantastic, smart, decent guy, who even made doing heroin look pretty honorable. Clean or sober, he still took care of people, did the right thing, and was a straight shooter. Even his most heinous act, the thing that was supposed to have pushed him into sobriety, wasn't his fault on several levels. He was pushed to those means by THE SYSTEM of cops who were unable to keep up their end of their bargains.

Omar? He is my favorite character - but by far the least believable in the series. Come on. A thief with a heart of gold? Never kills "innocents", only steals from the REAL bad guys, lives by a code, wants to retire, etc... It is a cliche of a superhero - Robin Hood. Believe me, I love it - was very much into it - but to claim that it is "realistic" doesn't seem to fit.

Even the Barksdales don't seem realistic to me. The tactics and methodology of the corner-boys, sure, that seems real, but the "guy who's tied to the streets" and the "guy who wants to be a businessman" dynamic? Come on. These are 2d characters. Again, I LOVE it. But it isn't realistic. It is simplistic and generic.

Let me say AGAIN - I LOVE the show, but it doesn't depict 3d people TO ME.

Shows that DO: Sopranos, Six Feet Under, The West Wing... and one other I'm forgetting... those shows are, in my opinion, better.

-Jeff

EDIT: P.S.

Let me also say that I don't think The Shield is particularly "more realistic" - that is, I don't think "realism" is something that sets The Shield apart from other shows. I DO think that EVERY character in the Shield is fully wrought - a 3D character. There is a difference between "realistic" and "true". And for me, every single moment of The Shield is true, whether or not it is realistic. It is true, because it comes from character, from what each of these people would do in a given circumstance.

As a show about ideas - about a position or an illustration of a problem, rather than characters - The Wire is only as "true" as its ideas. It feels valid if the situations and problems seem true. So while most of the methodology and details definitely felt true to me, unfortunately, some of the situations and characters did not.

[bcool]

A lot of times, ive felt pretty dirty after using a faq, but i'd say there was an equal number of times where I was like "Holy SHIT! im glad I didn't spend 3 hours on that!"

One where I was especially glad I didn't was in phantom hourglass where there's a couple parts where you have to creatively use the ds hardware... figuring that out made me feel pretty clever :-)

[toolwerx]

Even the Barksdales don't seem realistic to me. The tactics and methodology of the corner-boys, sure, that seems real, but the "guy who's tied to the streets" and the "guy who wants to be a businessman" dynamic? Come on. These are 2d characters. Again, I LOVE it. But it isn't realistic. It is simplistic and generic.



THAT is in fact real. I know people from Baltimore stuck in the "game" with aspirations of becoming something more. Shoot its everywhere. Just wanted to add that because that was ONE of the things from the show which hurt to watch after seeing first hand.

cliche'd as it may seem ;)


EDIT: Your last response clears up alot. I now see what YOU meant as "real". Thanks for responding.

[fancyburrito]

Let me also say that I don't think The Shield is particularly "more realistic" - that is, I don't think "realism" is something that sets The Shield apart from other shows. I DO think that EVERY character in the Shield is fully wrought - a 3D character. There is a difference between "realistic" and "true". And for me, every single moment of The Shield is true, whether or not it is realistic. It is true, because it comes from character, from what each of these people would do in a given circumstance.

As a show about ideas - about a position or an illustration of a problem, rather than characters - The Wire is only as "true" as its ideas. It feels valid if the situations and problems seem true. So while most of the methodology and details definitely felt true to me, unfortunately, some of the situations and characters did not.
That's a very satisfying response, as I was typing another before I saw this edit addressing this very thing. I understand where you're coming from now and can respect that, thank you for taking the time to respond.

[kilroyperrywinkle]

Jeff... my fellow forum members...


I don't like The Shield and I don't like The Wire!

Hug it out.

Let's hug it out bitches.

[redescape]

Just wanted to saw Jeff, That this by far was my favorite acting from the group and loved the idea....Is this from a Movie? I wish I knew more movies.

Either way, Awesome Intro. (Haven't watched the rest yet.)

[trsjeff]

I think you all might be interested to know that based on the exchange above Dan just called me to renew our "character" debate and we just spent 30 minutes on the phone vigorously defending our positions. Much fun was had. :)

Dan's quote, "How unfair is it to the forums members that I can just call you up to give my side"


-Jeff

[nobodysleeps]

I think you all might be interested to know that based on the exchange above Dan just called me to renew our "character" debate and we just spent 30 minutes on the phone vigorously defending our positions. Much fun was had. :)

Dan's quote, "How unfair is it to the forums members that I can just call you up to give my side"


-Jeff

Yeah I think we're gonna need a weekly/bi-weekly live discussion so we can talk it up. Because right now there are so many things that I want to say but I don't have the time to articulate them into a decent post.

I remember David Simon saying that him not killing a certain character that he did kill off would serve character and not story. And he wants to serve story as a priority.

That being said how can you not love almost every character in this series? I think the fact that the characters are "two-dimensional" because they indeed are constrained by the system and cannot change. I think that's the two-dimensional aspect Jeff is seeing.

And I want to hear what Dan and Alex has to say. Thank you, Jeff for being so active in the forums!

[kilroyperrywinkle]

I think you all might be interested to know that based on the exchange above Dan just called me to renew our "character" debate and we just spent 30 minutes on the phone vigorously defending our positions. Much fun was had. :)

Dan's quote, "How unfair is it to the forums members that I can just call you up to give my side"


-Jeff

Should we make a "Jeff Debate Hotline?"

1-800-TRS-JEFF

-"Hello Jeff's Debate Hotline, whats your point of view?"

"Well... I was just thinking about how in the Second Season of Sheld-"

-"It's the SHIELD MOTHER FUCKER!"

Click.

[smartypants]

I just have to say that I completely agree with Jeff. I love The Wire and The Shield, but The Shield is just on a different level, to me. So much of what Jeff has said, is exactly how I felt about The Wire. I did think that Omar was a completely awesome, yet completely unbelievable character.

It might just come down to personal preference, but I just always felt so frustrated when I watched The Wire. It was completely fascinating at times, especially the stuff about life as a drug dealer, on the corner. But the main emotion I kept having was just frustration. That kept it from being on that next level with me. I found it fascinating to watch this struggle between these individuals and the systems in which they have to operate. What happens when you try and fight the system, or if you just become completely obedient to it. But is that all the show is telling me? That this is the way life is, and it sucks? I still think it is a fascinating show to watch, but, as I said, just left me frustrated.

I also agree with the point about The Shield not being any more realistic, but that is not really the appeal of The Shield. For the Wire, a big part of the show's appeal is the feeling that this is what life is really like for some people in Baltimore. That's why it is more notable on a show like The Wire, when there are parts of it that really do seem unrealistic. But I definitely felt more of a connection to the characters on the shield, than to the characters on the wire.

[fancyburrito]

That being said how can you not love almost every character in this series? I think the fact that the characters are "two-dimensional" because they indeed are constrained by the system and cannot change. I think that's the two-dimensional aspect Jeff is seeing.
That's what I was thinking, does a character have to be three dimensional to be realistic (or vice versa)? It depends on what aspect you're looking at I guess, but The Wire has so many characters it's hard to generalize, hence the discussion being spilled in to the forums.

[dannyt]

That's what I was thinking, does a character have to be three dimensional to be realistic (or vice versa)? It depends on what aspect you're looking at I guess, but The Wire has so many characters it's hard to generalize, hence the discussion being spilled in to the forums.

This was something Jeff and I were chatting about...and it comes down to what Jeff said in an earlier post-- what's important is that when he watched The Wire he never quite found himself nodding his head with "thats so true" (like you would watching your favorite comedian) as much as when he watched The Shield. I had the opposite reaction, while watching The Shield I saw carcitures where Jeff saw honesty and that colored the rest of my experience of the show-- I found things that very well may have been based on real cases far-fetched much like Jeff's reaction to Omar falling 4 stories...

I think it's important to differentiate between what it means to say a character is 2d, 3d and whether or not that is a negative. I mentioned Malcolm Reynolds being one of my favorite characters ever and you certainly say he is drawn with a broader stroked pen (though I'd argue there are still 3 dimensions there) and I would also say characters on The Wire are also 3-dimensional even if drawn with a finer tipped instrument. Not only that, but, we talked about characters in Paul Greengrass movies like Bloody Sunday or United 93-- you don't have to overtly see any dimensions to know they are real (but I think these characters are just as dimensional as any but even less "fleshed out" then those in The Wire.

But like I said, ultimately it's just like do you like chocolate or vanilla-- moments and characters feel real or true based on your life experience so when you say The Wire is a more honest or interesting or true show than The Shield or vice versa-- you're gonna offend some one if you don't preface that with I FEEL....'cause we don't all come from the same places and know all the same people...

[nobodysleeps]

But like I said, ultimately it's just like do you like chocolate or vanilla-- moments and characters feel real or true based on your life experience so when you say The Wire is a more honest or interesting or true show than The Shield or vice versa-- you're gonna offend some one if you don't preface that with I FEEL....'cause we don't all come from the same places and know all the same people...

That being said, I have to say that we do have some great TV in our hands here. And we should all watch The Shield and The Wire just cause they are both so good.

[fancyburrito]

Dan, that's exactly what I was thinking, couldn't have put it better myself.

[joeyrock]

... there's no Buffy (The greatest TV show ever) option in the poll :(

[gravylookout]

Sorry to step in the middle of this incredible Shield vs Wire debate but I just had to put my two cents in regarding the game FAQ question. For me there are a variety of rules that I use to determine when it is ok to use a FAQ.

First and foremost, I use a FAQ when the game didn't do enough to lead me to the proper solution. I'm not saying that all the puzzles should be easy or obvious but when I've tried absolutely everything (talked to every NPC, broke every crate, and killed every last living thing in sight) and all I had to do was plant some seeds that I picked up two hours ago in a non-related quest in the middle of some courtyard....? I hate that. One game that does an awesome job of avoiding this is Super Mario Galaxy. Occasionally the camera angle would dwindle on a object or center on an area even as you were walking out of it to make it seem more important without spelling it out. Awesome!!!

Secondly, and lastly, sometimes I will print out an entire FAQ (at school or work of course) to have by me as I play a game. I only do this with 30-40 hour RPGs as there is often lists of items or enemies and other good information to keep the game rolling at a reasonable pace. Plus some of them are written rather well and can be fun to read along as you play.

That's it. Great ep guys!

[darthender]

I'm pretty psyched to hear that they'll be watching Babylon 5. Hope to god they give it more than 1 season though.

[DepthStrike]

As a non-American I must say that I really like the John Adams mini-series and it motived me to do some more reading on the formation of the USA. Although I did go on some interesting schooltrips for history class, I wish they would have used more stuff like this for in-school-activities. I also liked that we, the Dutch, have a nice part in the series (yes we were the big investors back then) and they took actual Dutch speaking people to play the parts. Must say that you did come of easy though: we had to fight Spain "Minas Tirith"-style for EIGHTY YEARS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years%27_War) before we had independence :eek:. Although the motivation was the same: nobody likes taxes :D.

[damnedeyez]

Just wanted to saw Jeff, That this by far was my favorite acting from the group and loved the idea....Is this from a Movie? I wish I knew more movies.

Either way, Awesome Intro. (Haven't watched the rest yet.)


For anyone wondering about the intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYLTqJMxmTY

(yes, it's really a clip from the movie...not a rick roll)

[applie]

For me it's interesting how the T.V. discussions (or the last 2 at least) differ so much from the discussions about movies/games. In the sense that the passion the guys have for/against something is that much more heightened. I think all of us who watch TRS have something that we feel the same kind of passion for, as Jeff does The Shield. To the extent where if we hear that somebody doesn't like that show, it's always because they haven't given it a proper chance.
For me, that show is Buffy. If anyone says they don't like that show, for whatever reason, I always think they could eventually be won round to my way of thinking. Even though in reality, it may not be a show for everyone.
Also, I think what Dan said about identifying with characters is important, although slightly wide of the mark. I think what Dan probably looks for in T.V. shows is the characters, and whether he can identify with them is the benchmark on which shows live or die.
For Jeff, it seems more to do with the moral situations characters have to deal with, and how these decisions are based are what the character has experienced before, and how they change. (Or that's the sense I get from what he's said about The Best Show Ever)
Given the amount of time, and emotional energy one invests in T.V. shows compared to films and video games, I think that's way these discussions are that much more passionate. Which can also be seen in the replies to this thread.

Anyway (very short) essay over.
Great show: to begin with I thought they were doing a scene from Magnolia where the boy's about to go onto the quiz show. Evidently that wasn't the case, although I'd love to see a scene from that movie done. (Say the one with John C. Reily in the African-American lady's apartment).
Oh, and personally, i like it when Jeff refers to the political situation at the time. There's nothing worse that ignoring politics/religion and making them seem insignificant, since it stifles debate and stops good intelligent discussion about extremely important things. That's not to say TRS should start getting all political on us, but if the point is relevant, they shouldn't be afraid to make it.

[masherscf]

About, "John Adams"...

Like it, hate it, the fat bastard from New York in the second episode... That's my great-great-great-great-grandfather. Really...

Just putting things into perspective.

[synne]

Really looking forward to the Babylon 5 review. You do have to watch it all to get the greatness of it. I like to think that the films don't exist as they suck balls.

[cybogoblin]

As a non-American I must say that I really like the John Adams mini-series and it motived me to do some more reading on the formation of the USA.

I'm also a foreigner (a Kiwi) and am loving the show. From the initial release weekend I was actually hoping that it would be two shows each week, so I wouldn't have to wait so long for more goodness.

What I especially like about the show is that it follows Adams almost exclusively. There's no cutting away to 'action scenes' or other things that are used to draw more viewers in. In this way it's a bit like how Band of Brothers was handled - except each episode of that show followed a different member of the cast.

I don't know a great deal about American history, just what I've picked up from tv, movies and perusing Wikipedia, and this is certainly filling in some blanks. It gets a little confusing in places when you miss a name, or get confused about what exactly is going on, but overall it's good enough to use as a teaching aide in schools.

One last thing - David Morse and Tom Wilkerson (sp) were perfectly cast in their roles (even if Morse needed a little padding).

As for Babylon 5 - a few years back I sat down at watched all five seasons on DVD over the course of a month or so. It was a somewhat epic undertaking, but I think it was worth it. Not my favourite sci-fi series, but it was good and enjoyable, which counts for a lot.

[diane]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer was the best tv show ever. Aside from two small character issues that were corrected over their 7 year run, it had amazing character development. It was beautiful story telling and though sci-fi (or fantasy, how ever you want to classify it) it was surprisingly realistic. Many times, especially with the relationship with her sister, there wasn't a damn thing I would have done differently than Buffy in those situations. Also, when a Scooby Doo reference and a Dante reference can be used in the same sentence, well for a pop culture junkie like me, that is just the cherry on top. Since Buffy wasn't an option, I felt the need to state it.

That said, I like the Shield better than the Wire.

I haven't seen the HBO special but now I am intrigued. I read the book and it might be nice to see it. Granted I am a little paranoid. I adore Abigail Adams, to me she was just an amazing woman. I hope they portray her strength and determination appropriately.

[kilroyperrywinkle]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer was the best tv show ever. Aside from two small character issues that were corrected over their 7 year run, it had amazing character development.... Also, when a Scooby Doo reference and a Dante reference can be used in the same sentence, well for a pop culture junkie like me, that is just the cherry on top.


This might not be the thread for this... but I'm curious Diane, what issues are you referring to? I'm also racking my brain trying to find what reference you're talking about please give it before I explode.

Thanks.

[royterp]

Dan's quote, "How unfair is it to the forums members that I can just call you up to give my side"
-Jeff

OK, I think this calls for a "TRS Extra" weekly audio podcast so these longer discussions can be captured for all of our enjoyment. This way TRS itself can remain more focused on the movie/TV show/video game at hand, but then broader conversations which inevitably stem from the show's reviews can be explored outside of the constraints of the video format. (It could even be done over Skype maybe with a moderator à la TWiT.) I'm just saying that clearly people are interested in your opinions else there wouldn't be dissertation-length polemics on the merits of a particular TRS review. Plus it would maybe allow more direct responses to comments people post here in the forums since a moderator could play the devil's advocate (so to speak) and argue from a particular forum poster's perspective in the cases where you TRS guys tend to agree with each other...

OK, now I feel like I'm just rambling, but I still think the "TRS Extra" is a good idea even if it is more work for you guys. And you love us enough for that, right? :)

[gonzooo]

I thought Jeff gave "The Wire" a great review, actually.

He said he thought the show was "VERY, VERY good" while also commenting on how he thought the point that it was very realistic could be argued against, which I think says a lot about what Jeff actually thought about the rest of the content.

Personally, I don't put much weight on realism in characters or story; if I can follow a given set of logic to everyone and everything in the series (either presented by the show itself or something I know from before) I'm very happy with that, because then I can view it from the show's created universe/reality.

[diane]

This might not be the thread for this... but I'm curious Diane, what issues are you referring to? I'm also racking my brain trying to find what reference you're talking about please give it before I explode.

Thanks.

My two issues would be Angel before he split off to his own show, never really bought him, but it might have been a the acting. The other was dark Willow when Joss wasn't writing. It just didn't ring true to me. Once he was back on board she came around. The season finale that year was one of the saddest and yet heartfelt moments I have ever seen on TV. Everything that happened was perfect for the character and the emotions were dead on. It was such an amazing roller coaster ride. And especially coming off of Buffy's death the year before and how that was played I didn't think they could do any better and yet, wow.

[nobodysleeps]

I posted this on the thread Paxroma created but I thought it would be suitable for this thread as well.

"I think we really just thought he would like The Wire more than The Shield.

We love you, Jeff. And thanks for watching The Wire.

More importantly, I want to say that Alex has been watching and loving the wire since it began. Why can't we find solace in that? Dan and Alex may like The Wire more than The Shield.

What I'm really happy about is that it has began this discussion. What I hope is that it just starts to become a discussion about The Wire, a show that has been neglected.

Thanks for watching The Wire, TRS. Hopefully many more people will watch it now."

[yodaizmyhomie]

Good show guys along with a great discussion afterwards on these forums. Yet in light of this discussion, I'd like to propose that a certain statement should be retired from the English language.

I propose that the phrase, "Just wait until episode/season ___, it gets so much better," should be banned completely. Now before I go any further, I want to say that I used to say this phrase all the time, and up until recently did I finally stop using it and realize how stupid it is to say that.

When people say this statement, it's usually precluded by someone borrowing a DVD/TV series from a friend and that friend tells them "don't worry if you don't like it right off the bat, once you get to season 5 it rocks hard!" This statement is simply ludicrous. I DO get where the original friend is coming from; he wants his buddy to have the same experience he did, and can't explain it any other way other than by showing him how he viewed the experience. But the problem is that the 'original watcher' always liked the show from the get-go, he only started to absolutely love it when the moment of season 5 came to fruition and his mind was blown. If the person that borrowed the DVD doesn't like the show right away, he probably will wait until that time you told him something cool happened, and just simply say "that one moment was cool," instead of saying that "this show is the best show ever!"

So my overall point being, if someone doesn't like a show halfway through a season, he should probably stop, because it's never going to click for him. Why waste the time when you could tell him start on another show. Like LOST :)

I hope this makes sense. /end rant

[giggleloop]

Haven't watched the episode yet, as I had to get on here and comment about the opening -- great "Best In Show" sendup! :D That movie is hilarious, well done guys. :)

[elisa]

Great show as per usual! Not gonna go to the whole The Shield vs. The Wire debate because I think it's a personal preference rather than a question of right or wrong. And I don't watch either of those shows so I wish the poll would have had a "neither" option :) (or as Dan suggested Buffy).

But as a long time sci-fi fan and as someone who has watched Babylon 5 dozens of times from start to finish, I can't wait for the guys to review the show. I'm also hoping, like other Babylon 5 fans I'm sure, that they won't stop at the first season. I personally think that things really started to happen in season 2. It's cheesy as hell, but the good kind in my opinion and they do big story arcs really well.

[tlazaroff]

I just can't wait to hear what you 3 think of Babylon 5. The characters are some of the most well written characters I've ever seen and are completely believable. The tough part is getting past the first half of season 1 where a lot of the acting (in particular Michael O'Hara) feels like you're watching someone act as a cardboard cut-out. My initial post was a bit confusing, you should watch the show in the order in which it aired on TV being this:
The Gathering (Pilot)
Season 1
Season 2
Season 3
Season 4
In The Beginning (movie)
Season 5
Thirdspace
River of Souls
A Call to Arms
Lost Tales 1 & 2

This will give you the complete experience. When I go back and re-watch the show today, I still learn new things that I missed before. It's put together very much like LOST is, where plot lines open up in season 1 and go on for years before resolution. Its nicer viewing this on DVD so you don't have such a long wait.

Much like The Shield, characters go through many changes and each has at least one big conflict that is focused on, one of them is continuous throughout the entire series. This show was also saved by it's fans twice from being canceled. It was also the first show to use CGI (ie/ it looks dated, which it is), so be nice about the technology. I just hope you all love it as much as I do.

Edit: One more thing.. while watching the series, keep these two questions in mind:
1) Who are you?
2) What do you want?

..profound..

[isuldor]

Would any of you guys support Jeff's assessment that the PSP is "coming into its own?" i.e. Is it really worthwhile for more than just its portable capacity?

I've been on the fence about getting one since I want to play Crisis Core, but its hard to justify getting it just for one game.

[neverendingwhitelights]

Would any of you guys support Jeff's assessment that the PSP is "coming into its own?" i.e. Is it really worthwhile for more than just its portable capacity?

I've been on the fence about getting one since I want to play Crisis Core, but its hard to justify getting it just for one game.

The PSP is especially worthwhile if you get it running homebrew. Then it's definitely worth the money. ;)

Anyway, I have a unique position on the FAQ/Guide thing. I am a very busy guy who has a lot to do. I mean... A LOT. I have maybe half a dozen seasons/shows I mean to watch, untold hundreds of movies I'd like to watch (but don't because I can never pick one), another dozen or so games to play even though I only have PS3/2/1/PC not to mention my um, JOB. Then you have to factor in the things that I need to stay current with. Like I play some Guitar Hero or Rock Band every day to stay sharp on it, some DDR to stay in shape a bit, TV that's airing that night or just recently aired.

I just have all kinds of things I need to be doing. So I have chosen to expedite the process, by using guides and FAQ's very liberally, even cheating if the mood strikes me as well. Kind of hard to cheat PS3 games these days, which is kind of unfortunate for me, but I've got over it mostly. I use the guides or cheats because I want to play the game, but I do not want to get stuck in the game. I don't have the time to get stuck, get mad, think about how to get past this or that for hours on end, only to realize I'm a moron and finally do it right as a goof or something. When I sit down to play a game, I really cannot endure doing that. If I played every game with no help, I would never get caught up. At least this way I stand some small fraction of a chance of getting there someday. Doesn't help that I have a big library of games that take forever to beat (God help me, I love RPG's), but so what.

There are certain ones I play completely blind, like, say FPS. Those are on rails, you really can't NOT figure out how to proceed with the game. If that has ever happened to you, you're very dense... or the level designer was a blockhead.

So, short answer time... I use guides on basically every game I play, because it decreases the amount of time I need to get the experience of the game, and allows me to get to the next one much faster. After I have played it once through with said guide, it's entirely possible I'd play it again without it, but that would require me catching up to other games I need to play, which I can't do unless I use a walkthrough in the first place. So it's a vicious circle there, I guess.

[tsmith15]

I propose that the phrase, "Just wait until episode/season ___, it gets so much better," should be banned completely.
Yessss. I would rather watch a show I like from the start than something where I need to wait until the 3rd season to get enjoyment out of it.

I think 24 is a great example for a show which works well as individual seasons (they're actually standalones) but if you watch them in order it enriches the experience and fleshes out characters.

If it takes 40 minutes per episode x 20 episodes in a season x 2 seasons before you start enjoying it, that's 1600 minutes, a.k.a 26.66 hours of time wasted.

[elisa]

If it takes 40 minutes per episode x 20 episodes in a season x 2 seasons before you start enjoying it, that's 1600 minutes, a.k.a 26.66 hours of time wasted.

The thing is, it's not wasted, at least not in my case. Usually if I get into a show in laters seasons I end up going back and rewatching the previous seasons with a completely different look and usually end up appreciating them more. Hence not a waste. Like Star Trek: TNG for example, I didn't particularly enjoy season 1 and 2, but it was still better than most shows back then so I stuck with it and then in season 3 it started to get really good. Now when I go back and watch the first two seasons, I enjoy them a lot more. Maybe that's just me, but sometimes it's worth it.

[kalaspuffar]

I love adventure games. Going around collecting a hole bag of things to use in other parts of the game. And I have played a few really good adventure games where you could go thought the game working out every puzzle because they where intuitive. Not that they wheren't hard but it was you who figured them out.

But some games get really frustrating fast when the puzzle isn't intuitive. Where you MUST look at a specific object to get a cutseen that unlocks the rest of the game. You can't do it any other way. Or the monkey island approch is your only option because you have to try every thing with everyting because you can't now that you should use the fish with the yello to kill the 3 headed monkey (I made that one up so I won't spoil the fun ;) ).

So when I come to a point where I can't solve this and I have banged my head against a wall for several hours I look it up. And usually now adays I look at the solution and think, thats really bad game design and I get angry.

Games should be hard but cleaver, not impossible and dumb.

[graphicsg33k]

Who changes? Bubbles? Okay, well, he cleans himself up. But did he really change? No, he was always the junkie with the heart of gold. In the last season, we hear that he used to steal from his sister - but we never, never saw him do ANYTHING that was even remotely dishonorable. He can't imagine that guy. What we saw was a great, fantastic, smart, decent guy, who even made doing heroin look pretty honorable. Clean or sober, he still took care of people, did the right thing, and was a straight shooter. Even his most heinous act, the thing that was supposed to have pushed him into sobriety, wasn't his fault on several levels. He was pushed to those means by THE SYSTEM of cops who were unable to keep up their end of their bargains.

Throughout the first few seasons all we see is him stealing from other people, shoplifting and he even made a mixture to kill the guy who kept robbing him, but the kid accidentally took it and died. How is this not dishonorable? It just seemed right, because every once in a while he felt bad about it but that doesn't mean it wasn't dishonorable.

Omar? He is my favorite character - but by far the least believable in the series. Come on. A thief with a heart of gold? Never kills "innocents", only steals from the REAL bad guys, lives by a code, wants to retire, etc... It is a cliche of a superhero - Robin Hood. Believe me, I love it - was very much into it - but to claim that it is "realistic" doesn't seem to fit.
I think Omar was most people's favorite character. I do agree that he was the most unbelievable character, solely based on the fact that he was gay. Him being a Robin Hood is not so much unbelievable as him being gay (not that there's anything wrong with that).


Even the Barksdales don't seem realistic to me. The tactics and methodology of the corner-boys, sure, that seems real, but the "guy who's tied to the streets" and the "guy who wants to be a businessman" dynamic? Come on. These are 2d characters. Again, I LOVE it. But it isn't realistic. It is simplistic and generic.
You'd be very surprised by the amount of successful business men that became entrepreneurs with funds earned from the drug game. I personally knew a guy who had a very successful business that started with funds from drugs. These guys have really no schooling and no financial background to get business loans so they must look elsewhere. Albeit not being legal, but it still happens. So, I do disagree with you that they were unrealistic. I can't even begin to tell you how real the methods used by the corner boys and the higher ups were. It blew me away how real they actually got in some parts.


Let me say AGAIN - I LOVE the show, but it doesn't depict 3d people TO ME.

Shows that DO: Sopranos, Six Feet Under, The West Wing... and one other I'm forgetting... those shows are, in my opinion, better.

-Jeff
I know you liked the show and I hope my other thread (TRS - The Wire Review) didn't throw you off. I enjoyed you guys' review because I got to see it from someone else's perspective. Yall even pointed out some things that I missed. All of my friends rave about The Wire so it was interesting to hear the other side. All in all it was a great review. Unfortunately, some people in my other thread made it seem like I was attacking you, which I definitely was not. You have your opinions and I have mine. If we all agreed all the time TRS would be boring and so would the forums.

[smartypants]

I'm pretty much with Jeff on the FAQs, as well. I have almost never used one... almost. I feel about them pretty much the way I feel about cheat codes. I always hated my friends who would use cheat codes, or that game shark thingie that you could buy for NES and SNES. (If you had one of those as a kid my respect for you as a person is severely diminished.) To me the whole point of playing a game is the challenge to see if I can beat it. If a game is not challenging to me, than it is not fun. Why else are you playing a game? Where is the fun in running through a game with unlimited lives, unlimited guns, etc.. The same goes for using a walkthrough... why not just watch someone else play the game? It's not a movie. The point is YOU have to beat it. I understand not wanting to waste time, not wanting to be frustrated, but I honestly just don't understand how anyone has fun with a game without it being challenging.

For games like a Zelda I think I might have resorted to looking things up once or twice when I was completely stuck (probably in the damn water temple... I always hate the water temples). Once I've been through every room, looked at every square inch several times, and still have no clue, I might look up the answer. After I looked up the answer, though, I always felt so dirty.

I did want to ask if you guys feel at all the same way about something like thottbot for WoW? I feel a lot different about that, for some reason. I don't have a problem when I'm playing WoW to think, "Where the hell do I find a Rod of Something-Or-Other? I'll just go look it up on the internet." I'm not sure what the difference is. Part of it is just how huge WoW is, sometimes by the time I finish a quest I've forgotten where to find the guy who gave me the quest in the first place. But even in WoW, if a quest tells me the general area where I need to go, I try to find the item/mob on my own before I look it up.

[geekluv]

I hope you guys delve deeper into the subject of the way playing games for review purposes changes things (as you briefly mentioned). I'm starting to notice the difference when playing games for fun versus games I have to review. If you care to tackle that in a future episode I would be most appreciative. :)

[trsjeff]

Throughout the first few seasons all we see is him stealing from other people, shoplifting and he even made a mixture to kill the guy who kept robbing him, but the kid accidentally took it and died. How is this not dishonorable? It just seemed right, because every once in a while he felt bad about it but that doesn't mean it wasn't dishonorable.


I'm not sure how long it has been since you've seen the series, but you may not be remembering this in detail. We see Bubbs collecting scrap metal mostly, and the one time we do see him shoplift he's such a great, helpful guy that McNutty even lets him keep the walkman he shoplifted. There is absolutely NO wrongdoing on his part.

As for the "mixture" killing the kid, this is what I was trying to obliquely reference in this sentence, so as to avoid spoilers:

"Even his most heinous act, the thing that was supposed to have pushed him into sobriety, wasn't his fault on several levels. He was pushed to those means by THE SYSTEM of cops who were unable to keep up their end of their bargains."



You'd be very surprised by the amount of successful business men that became entrepreneurs with funds earned from the drug game. I personally knew a guy who had a very successful business that started with funds from drugs. These guys have really no schooling and no financial background to get business loans so they must look elsewhere. Albeit not being legal, but it still happens. So, I do disagree with you that they were unrealistic. I can't even begin to tell you how real the methods used by the corner boys and the higher ups were. It blew me away how real they actually got in some parts.



I have no doubt that there are real gang crimelords who get into business, but what I'm saying is that the way these two archetypes are dipicted in the Wire is devoid of any subtlety. They are JUST archetypes. Avon is The Street and Stringer is The Boardroom. That's it. As with all of the characters in the show, they are there to make a point - to present an idea about the nature of these people. They REPRESENT something, rather than living as unique, interesting, multi-faceted characters.

I LIKE the thing they are representing, the point the show is making, but it is not as rich a tapestry for me as some other shows I've mentioned.

-Jeff

[cr4sh]

I'm stunned that none of you have seen Babylon 5, I absolutely loved the show. The first season is slow but as others have mentioned it really sets up the rest of the series. I think it's unfair to compare it to Lost though. Lost feels like an uninspired machine that will string viewers along for however long the show remains profitable. In stark contract, Babylon 5 was always intended to be Five seasons long with the story being conceived as a whole and delivered in it's entirety. And to give you an idea of how thoroughly planned the series was from the outset, every character, before they even began production, had a 'trap door' written in. This ensured that if for any reason an actor or actress had to leave the show their character could be removed from the series without jumping any sharks.

[Some information paraphrased from the Wiki]


To backtrack to the games segment, I don't feel that the Wii's controls will evolve beyond their current uses. They might be refined, and there's a small chance Nintendo might do something truly interesting with the controls, but no third party developer will do anything original(that is also interesting). From my perspective, the Wii controls are very pigeon-holed into mimicking 'real life' movements. While Sony has really fallen flat these first couple of years, I feel that the Sixaxis has more potential than the Wii remote because it augments/enhances/compliments the already robust control schema we already use. I think as the PS3 matures you will see more _subtle_ implementations of the Sixaxis functionality, and that the combination of the already powerful modern controllers and the intuitive(when executed well) mechanic of the Sixaxis will really prove to be engaging and innovative without becoming a chore.


And back to the TV segment: I've never watched the Wire and I've only seen a few disconnected episodes of the Shield. However, every episode of the Shield I have seen, and to a greater extent every commercial I have seen for the Shield, just makes me roll my eyes. Everything I've seen and heard about the show(even from Jeff) just makes it sound rubbish. The Shield just seems like 5 years of Powerthirst commercials(http://youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs and http://youtube.com/watch?v=t-3qncy5Qfk), except without the parody.

[latx]

Just wanted to say I really enjoyed this Ep, and am loving the post show forum discussion as well.

First off, I'm falling in love with this little online community and the hosts more and more. This is almost the only forum I've ever been to where the hosts of the shows are willing to come in and hold full conversations with their viewers and it's also rare to find an online forum where people can debate in a friendly manner and agree to disagree.

I'm slowly learning that I'm way behind in my TV viewing. Honestly haven't seen the Shield, The Wire, or The Sopranos. Atleast one of these is because I never had HBO, but I plan to add all three to my Netflix queue. I actually did watch the very first episode of The Shield when it came on, enjoyed it, but for some reason never returned to it.

I think I agree with Alex and Dan when it comes to FAQ's. I try hard not to use them, but will use them if my frustration with figuring out what to do starts outweighing the enjoyment I'm getting. I understand that you loose a little enjoyment from not figuring it out yourself, but if I'm not enjoying figuring it out to begin with, than I don't feel I'm loosing that much by looking at the FAQs for that one part.

[jexter]

No one must have read that book but me!! :) since I have not seen anyone talk about it in relation to the review in this episode.

While I have not seen the movie yet I just wanted to say it sounds like, from what you guys said, it followed the book pretty well. They DID get the crap beat out of them on more than one occasion, there IS a part in the book about going to strip clubs and a girl he "dated". They really DID live it up like high rollers, they did NOT lay low in real life.

None of those points were added in to make it seem cooler :D

[yssman]

I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised by how many posts have shown up since yesterday's debut, I don't think I've seen this discussion thread lit up like this in a while... Unless I'm mistaken of course...

Of many awesome things in the show, I have to thank all of you for that wonderful opening sequnece. The fact that Jeff managed to match Alex's shrieks of awesomeness may in fact be an early contender for most-rad intro for season two.

AWESOME!

===

As I have read, there has been a lot of discussion on 'The Wire' vs 'The Shield,' and as someone who cares not a whole lot for niehter, I'd suggest to call a truce and move on. However, that is obviously not possible.

So, therefore, I submit that 'Top Gear' is the greatest show on television and move on...

[gonzooo]

No one must have read that book but me!! :) since I have not seen anyone talk about it in relation to the review in this episode.

While I have not seen the movie yet I just wanted to say it sounds like, from what you guys said, it followed the book pretty well. They DID get the crap beat out of them on more than one occasion, there IS a part in the book about going to strip clubs and a girl he "dated". They really DID live it up like high rollers, they did NOT lay low in real life.

None of those points were added in to make it seem cooler :D
This post was most helpful. I thank thee.

[cooljammer00]

Good show guys along with a great discussion afterwards on these forums. Yet in light of this discussion, I'd like to propose that a certain statement should be retired from the English language.

I propose that the phrase, "Just wait until episode/season ___, it gets so much better," should be banned completely. Now before I go any further, I want to say that I used to say this phrase all the time, and up until recently did I finally stop using it and realize how stupid it is to say that.

When people say this statement, it's usually precluded by someone borrowing a DVD/TV series from a friend and that friend tells them "don't worry if you don't like it right off the bat, once you get to season 5 it rocks hard!" This statement is simply ludicrous. I DO get where the original friend is coming from; he wants his buddy to have the same experience he did, and can't explain it any other way other than by showing him how he viewed the experience. But the problem is that the 'original watcher' always liked the show from the get-go, he only started to absolutely love it when the moment of season 5 came to fruition and his mind was blown. If the person that borrowed the DVD doesn't like the show right away, he probably will wait until that time you told him something cool happened, and just simply say "that one moment was cool," instead of saying that "this show is the best show ever!"

So my overall point being, if someone doesn't like a show halfway through a season, he should probably stop, because it's never going to click for him. Why waste the time when you could tell him start on another show. Like LOST :)

I hope this makes sense. /end rant

not true. a recent example was Heroes. Dan saw the first few eps and hated it. Yet, he saw more, and grew to love it. Are you saying he should have just given up as soon as he didn't like it? Or with Buffy? We all saw the movie. Why did we bother with the show?

In a related note, if the guys are doing old sci fi shows, they should review Firely and TNG and everything else. I like that they are going back, but we have to keep a statute of limitations on these things, or else we'll be forcing the guys to watch everything from ST:TOS to Doctor Who to everything else.

[tsmith15]

The thing is, it's not wasted, at least not in my case. Usually if I get into a show in laters seasons I end up going back and rewatching the previous seasons with a completely different look and usually end up appreciating them more. Hence not a waste. Like Star Trek: TNG for example, I didn't particularly enjoy season 1 and 2, but it was still better than most shows back then so I stuck with it and then in season 3 it started to get really good. Now when I go back and watch the first two seasons, I enjoy them a lot more. Maybe that's just me, but sometimes it's worth it.
Wow, I actually hadn't thought of that before; thanks.

I can relate somewhat in regards to Star Trek: Voyager in that I only watched it during re-runs and they never broadcast an episode earlier than season 3 but eventually I got around to seeing some stuff from the earlier seasons and I appreciated seeing the characters before some of their development and more things fall into place. I can just remember how awfully gigantic B'Elanna's eyebrows were closer to the start of the series.

Also, I saw someone mention Firefly, and I can also mention that watching and greatly enjoying Serenity inspired me to buy Firefly on DVD and I'm in the process of watching (and greatly enjoying) it.

[dannyt]

You want us to review firefly?

Jeff: It's a great show, love it.

Alex: It's a great show, love it, my favorites episode is Jaynestown

Dan: It's a great show, love it, It share's a slot with Buffy (and City of Men) as MY greatest show ever, Joss Whedon is my master...

Jeff: You should read astonishing X-Men

Alex: Yea I read it it's really good

Dan: Well because you guys always say that I read it and thought it was ok

Jeff (holds out fist): Serenityyyyyyy

Alex (holds out fist): Pants.

Dan (awkwardly holds out fist just before)

EXPLOSION!

[yssman]

Now that Firefly is free on Hulu I should watch it... I feel like I can't do my TRS fandom justice without seeing it.

[gojira]

I know the TRS guys are really busy and have real lives, but sometimes I wish they conversed more on the forums. They barely scratch the surface in many of their reviews. It's cool having them in here talking about The Wire and The Shield. But they could totally have their conversation about the differences of playing games for review vs. just for fun on the forum, and not be stifled by time. And a huge plus is that we can be a part of the discussion.

[heyseuss]

No one must have read that book but me!! :) since I have not seen anyone talk about it in relation to the review in this episode.

While I have not seen the movie yet I just wanted to say it sounds like, from what you guys said, it followed the book pretty well. They DID get the crap beat out of them on more than one occasion, there IS a part in the book about going to strip clubs and a girl he "dated". They really DID live it up like high rollers, they did NOT lay low in real life.

None of those points were added in to make it seem cooler :D

And, unlike Dan said he would have believed, they really DID dress up in wigs and fake accents and pretend to be different people. The wig I saw on Bosworth in the clip was actually the same as the one the girl did use.

The discovery channel documentary is actually as good as, maybe even better, than the book.

It also doesn't seem that this movie mentions they recruited about 25 ppl at it's peak and were partying so hard that some didn't even know what was going on.

[heyseuss]

Dan (awkwardly )


Ha, must be 'acting' again.

[darknessgp]

...
Also, I saw someone mention Firefly, and I can also mention that watching and greatly enjoying Serenity inspired me to buy Firefly on DVD and I'm in the process of watching (and greatly enjoying) it.

Well, other than Dan's rad transcript of a review... I have yet to meet someone that has seen Firefly and not liked it, so that's about 10+ people. So, once you are done watching Firefly it will be your duty to share it with those that haven't seen it.

[winklepr]

I don't comment much, as many of you are probably very aware. In addition, I just as rarely vote on the Poll but was motivated to after this last episode in hopes that I'd be able to vote for Buffy! To my disgust, such an option wasn't there - only The Shield or The Wire. When this travesty is corrected, put me down for Buffy (or anything Whedon for that matter).

Also, thank you Danny "Mr." T - for constantly representing Joss and the excellent/hypothetical transcript of Jeff, Alex, and your Firefly review. Like you, I think I feel similarly about Astonishing (keep in mind though, I only have read the first 12) but am feeling the latest Buffy/Angel/Serenity books quite a bit more.

Keep it up, get Buffy in that Poll, and give Jeff a "best show ever" for me when you do!

[yodaizmyhomie]

not true. a recent example was Heroes. Dan saw the first few eps and hated it. Yet, he saw more, and grew to love it. Are you saying he should have just given up as soon as he didn't like it? Or with Buffy? We all saw the movie. Why did we bother with the show?


I'm not saying its true or false. I'm just stating that its very rare in the case when someone says to you "just wait til episode 100, it gets so badass" that you'll actually love it then if you hadn't already been interested in it beforehand. I think if you've watched a show for more than 6 or 7 episodes, you should trust your instincts.

Sidenote -I believe Dan is in the same boat as me, and isn't really a fan of heroes. I think he just dug a few sections of episodes.

[az0madman]

Noticed Dan was wearing a woot shirt, haha. Very rad!

Great episode as usual. You guys will most certainly have to get a PSP since it is really coming along. Alex talks about PSP wanting to be a console, and I do agree with that. However, it's kind of a bit contradictory that he liked Ninja Gaiden for the DS because it's a portable version of the console game. If it's just the ports in general, there are a lot of PSP games like God of War or GTA that are made specifically with portability in mind, with short bursts of gameplay and what not. But yeah, PSP is definitely saturated with console-type games, where as the DS is mostly about innovation (developers gotta work with what they got).

[graphicsg33k]

First off, I just wanted to say that I appreciate you getting into this conversation with me. Its not often where you can get into a forum debate where one side doesn't start verbally attacking.
I'm not sure how long it has been since you've seen the series, but you may not be remembering this in detail. We see Bubbs collecting scrap metal mostly, and the one time we do see him shoplift he's such a great, helpful guy that McNutty even lets him keep the walkman he shoplifted. There is absolutely NO wrongdoing on his part.
I actually just got into the show a couple of months ago and ended up buying all the seasons on Amazon to catch up to Season 5. The way I see it is that Bubbles still shoplifted. He also stole the copper pipes from the back of that truck when his friend (can't think of his name) pretended to get hit by it. They also got the guy on the ladder to give them some money. All of these things were dishonorable no matter how he felt afterwards or how helped McNulty. I'm not saying that Bubbles is not a good person. Most of what he did was not his conscious talking but more of the addiction taking over. As he started to get clean his conscious slowly started to take back over. I saw Bubbles' character as showing how drugs can really effect even the nicest of people.

As for the "mixture" killing the kid, this is what I was trying to obliquely reference in this sentence, so as to avoid spoilers:

"Even his most heinous act, the thing that was supposed to have pushed him into sobriety, wasn't his fault on several levels. He was pushed to those means by THE SYSTEM of cops who were unable to keep up their end of their bargains."
Sorry I didnt realize you were trying to avoid spoilers. Seeing as how the show has already aired I didn't really see it as a spoiler. But I see what you are saying because it seems most people are going and watching the seasons for the first time as I did.


I have no doubt that there are real gang crimelords who get into business, but what I'm saying is that the way these two archetypes are dipicted in the Wire is devoid of any subtlety. They are JUST archetypes. Avon is The Street and Stringer is The Boardroom. That's it. As with all of the characters in the show, they are there to make a point - to present an idea about the nature of these people. They REPRESENT something, rather than living as unique, interesting, multi-faceted characters.

I LIKE the thing they are representing, the point the show is making, but it is not as rich a tapestry for me as some other shows I've mentioned.

-Jeff
I can agree with this. I just thought they did a damn good job of representing the two archetypes. But I do have to disagree with you on the comparison to The Sopranos. I was a huge fan of The Sopranos but thought The Wire was a much more realistic show. Maybe it was because I can more relate to the elements in The Wire vs. The Sopranos. But thats for another day and I dont have the energy for that right now. Thanks for the discussion! Now I have to go back and watch The Shield. After watching 54 episodes of TRS, I think its time to see why you've brought it up way more than 54 times. :D The only episode I have seen is where the cop went into the house by himself and the "bad guys" came home and made him do some nasty stuff to them.

[neumann]

Haven't seen the Shield or the Wire. Can't offer an opinion either way.

I've had Firefly on DVD for years but I've only seen a few episodes. I LOVED the movie though.

Great show this week, I feel like I might be the one guy who got the "Best in Show" parody... could Spinal Tap be in the near future?

Incidentally, what was that "Rise" shirt that Jeff was wearing?

Chris

[winklepr]

Haven't seen the Shield or the Wire. Can't offer an opinion either way.

I've had Firefly on DVD for years but I've only seen a few episodes. I LOVED the movie though.

Great show this week, I feel like I might be the one guy who got the "Best in Show" parody... could Spinal Tap be in the near future?

Incidentally, what was that "Rise" shirt that Jeff was wearing?

Chris

Oh, don't underestimate the number of Christopher Guest fans on these boards... As for Spinal Tap, you need not look much further back in previous episodes to find Dan referencing TRS going up to 11. You know, for when you need that extra push over the cliff. As for this post, it's called "lick my lovepump."

[kyleh]

Alright so i read through like the first 4 pages and didn't see this..

but i found it hilarious that Alex and Jeff did the EXACT same thing when Dan asked about Underoos

[trsjeff]

but i found it hilarious that Alex and Jeff did the EXACT same thing when Dan asked about Underoos


That was a clear case of me doing one of Alex's mannerisms... we hang out together too much.

-Jeff

[trsjeff]

You want us to review firefly?

Jeff: It's a great show, love it.

Alex: It's a great show, love it, my favorites episode is Jaynestown

Dan: It's a great show, love it, It share's a slot with Buffy (and City of Men) as MY greatest show ever, Joss Whedon is my master...

Jeff: You should read astonishing X-Men

Alex: Yea I read it it's really good

Dan: Well because you guys always say that I read it and thought it was ok

Jeff (holds out fist): Serenityyyyyyy

Alex (holds out fist): Pants.

Dan (awkwardly holds out fist just before)

EXPLOSION!

Damnit, Dan, when you write it out, no one needs to watch the show!

(man, we're predictable)

-Jeff

[winklepr]

Damnit, Dan, when you write it out, no one needs to watch the show!

(man, we're predictable)

-Jeff

I'd watch it, even if it went down like that word for word - however I doubt it would. If you don't review Whedon in TV (especially Dollhouse when the time comes) then might as well hit up some related comics, with his run on Astonishing and Runaways finishing up and Buffy, Angel, and Serenity heating up. I may be extra biased though since some of those are Dark Horse titles, and being from Oregon, always happy to see them represented.

Your review of Babylon 5 may likely make or break my final straw on whether to watch it (no pressure or anything). Lastly, great title for this week's episode - reminds me that I need to throw a Gauntlet soon!

[brundlefly]

For the love of Jumanji... It's Wednesday night (okay, Thursday morning now) and already 10 pages of discussion for this episode. I just watched the show and admittedly, I skimmed the previous posts, so don't flame me too badly if I hit a point that's already been made or I make a statement that's already been beaten to death.

First reaction... one of the best shows thus far, bar none.

As far as the ongoing discussion of The Wire vs. The Shield, all I can do is reference Jeff's on-show comments from a few months back regarding the personal attachments we sometimes form with certain things in the entertainment world. Each of us has our own history and past experiences that have shaped us and made us who we are today, at this moment, as individuals. As a result, each of us will find certain things in life vastly more interesting, perplexing, or hit closer to home.

A good example of this, I think, is Alex's preface in this show regarding watching a show and saying that it's a good show, and yet, there is obvious bad acting in parts that is to be overlooked and excused.

I know a lot of people will swear up and down on their mother's grave that Buffy was the be-all-end-all of a good TV series. Obviously, The Wire and The Shield are HUGE favorites as well. It doesn't make any of them better or worse than the others, it just means that they are enjoyed differently based upon each of their merits as applicable to different people.

For me, THAT series was La Femme Nikita on the USA network here in the States. Admittedly, there were some SERIOUS moments of bad acting, some terribly campy plot premise scenarios, and unrealistic moments that the phrase "over the top" can't even begin to cover. That being said (Dan shoutout), the underlying storyline was a means to an end to present the viewer with a storyline that wasn't so much about being entertained on the superficial level, but invoking that personal emotional response to the ethical dilemmas and the "What would I do in that situation" moments. Not unlike Christian Bale's character in No Country For Old Men. The fact that Nikita did that, consistently and in a fresh way every episode for 5 seasons, is a great credit. So much so, in fact, that there were only going to be four seasons originally, and fans of the show wrote into the network like an angry mob of villagers brandishing pitchforks and flaming torches and convinced them to do another season. And just to name drop with no shame, Dan told me in a live chat one night that he too enjoyed some Nikita. La Femme Nikita, FTW!

Also on movies... I did a pee-pee dance in my chair when I heard John Morris' name pop up with his picture during the show. I have two movies that are my favorites in the world (mood dependent), one being The Abyss, and the other being Dancer In The Dark, which stars John Morris alongside Bjork. I know a lot of people judged that movie at face value based on assumption and never saw it because it was a 'musical' starring Bjork, which I know DOES carry some preconceived notions, but the fact is, as a 32 year old former army infantryman, that movie NEVER fails to draw tears out of my eyes. It's a beautiful, powerful film, and a LOT of that credit goes to John Morris. One of the most overlooked actors today, IMHO. Kudos to you guys for the mention.

Amazingly enough, I was actually going to write in and ask a very similar question as to the one featured in this episode, for much the same reasons. My time to play games is rather limited, and so is the depth of my wallet. About 10 years ago, I decided to knock myself out of sync with the rest of the free world, and I experience games about 3-4 years behind everyone else. The experience is the exact same for me, I just have it a long time after everyone else, and for a lot cheaper. While everybody and their brother is spending mad cash on the PS3 and XBox 360s (if they can find them, retail), I dropped less than $200 for a PS2 and some PS2 titles that took me all of 20 minutes to find and buy. Having been very into the Hitman series lately, I have found myself gravitating, on occasion, to FAQs for walk throughs. Much like Alex, I have a very fluid set of rules as well, but backed up by a set of criteria more akin to Jeff's mindset. It's a case-by-case thing, for me. I won't "cheat' on something that gives me an unfair advantage or a huge leap ahead. When possible, I take the smallest possible "cheat chunk" I can, and only when necessary after I have tried and failed using everything I could think of. However, I FREELY use FAQs after a game's storyline is finished and I'm just going back and replaying for the 'extras' like collecting all the weapons, finding easter eggs, or doing things in an alternate method to view an alternate cutscene I detoured around originally.

Okay, I've gas-bagged enough. To all those who actually read all my rambling, I'm sorry. And to Jeff and Dan specifically, big ups for being down-to-earth and civil in your forums discussions, even when opposing viewpoints are presented. It's that kind of maturity that we fans love you for.

[dannyt]

[QUOTE=Brundlefly And to Jeff and Dan specifically, big ups for being down-to-earth and civil in your forums discussions, even when opposing viewpoints are presented. It's that kind of maturity that we fans love you for.[/QUOTE]

Hey douchebag, it's DAVID Morse and Christian Bale wasn't in No Country for Old Men.

:)

[trsjeff]

Hey douchebag, it's DAVID Morse and Christian Bale wasn't in No Country for Old Men.

:)

DannyT... alienating one viewer at a time. :)

-Jeff

[warkro]

I just wanted to bring up a movie called Last Casino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Casino) made in 2004. It's very similar to 21 in terms of plot and characters.

[brundlefly]

Ha! Touche.

To be honest... I never knew David Morse name. He was always just "that damned good actor" in my mind because I've never seen him in anything else. I was watching the show and scribbling down notes and for some reason I wrote down John Morris instead of David Morse. The really funny thing is that as I was writing my earlier comments, I thought it sounded wrong, so I looked it up on wikipedia. I was wondering why he got no credit for anything besides voice acting on Toy Story and Toy Story 2. LMAO

And you are, of course, correct about Christian Bale. Your Netflix spots work, I joined, and actually watched both No Country and 3:10 to Yuma today, via my new Netflix account ;-) You can see where the mental mix-up happened, I'm sure.

Lesson learned.... Don't post on the forums when tired. Also, alcohol and math don't mix..... don't drink and derive.

*edit* I just did it again. Let's hope I edit myself before anybody notices.

[trsjeff]

Okay, one more thing, and then I'm going to bed.


As far as the ongoing discussion of The Wire vs. The Shield, all I can do is reference Jeff's on-show comments from a few months back regarding the personal attachments we sometimes form with certain things in the entertainment world. Each of us has our own history and past experiences that have shaped us and made us who we are today, at this moment, as individuals. As a result, each of us will find certain things in life vastly more interesting, perplexing, or hit closer to home.


You know, it occurs to me that this very principle is at work in our show, too. Depending on who you are, you look at our wandering, often incoherent ramblings, mistakes, and odd ticks on TRS and think we're either endearing or complete ass-morons (Hey, did I just coin a new term?) It has a lot to do with what you bring to it. I'm just glad there are enough of you that are as geeky and passionate as we are to identify with what we're doing. So, um, thanks guys!

/end pandering rant of love

g'night :)

-Jeff

[brundlefly]

complete ass-morons (Hey, did I just coin a new term?)

I'm keen on the term "douchenozzle" myself.

I'll keep this brief on the subject of 21. I saw a documentary on the actual MIT gang this movie is based upon about a month ago on either the Discovery Channel or TLC. Having now seen this movie trailer, I have more desire to repeatedly poke myself in the eye with a plastic Swiss army knife toothpick while listening to opera than see this film (apologies to opera fans and the makers of Swiss army knives). I understand that Hollywood is going to take some liberty and try and spice it up a bit, but this film (judging by the trailer) is so far away from the real deal, it might just be a crime to use the phrase "based on actual events" in regards to it.

And damn you Jeff! All I can picture now is you crawling into your bed wearing underroos. In my mind, at least, they're Scooby Doo, not Spiderman.

[gm_wil]

good show...and FAQ's...who doesn't have Thottbot or wowicki bookmarked when playing WoW?

-

[mltvcocktail]

Great show guys, Completely agree with Alex on the PSP, they've had the wrong idea so far but I think they're starting to turn a corner. 21 does look like all flash and no substance, I think I'll just watch Casino Royale again. As far as The Shield vs. The Wire fracas that has been going on, it's kinda pointless, we all know that Arrested Development is the greatest show ever :).

[royterp]

I LOVED my Captain America Underoos to the point where my mom had to lecture me on how inappropriate it was to show people my underwear. But my six-year-old brain couldn't understand why someone would wear such awesome underwear and yet not be able to show anyone... which is probably why Mom forbade me from wearing them to school.

[winklepr]

Okay, one more thing, and then I'm going to bed.




You know, it occurs to me that this very principle is at work in our show, too. Depending on who you are, you look at our wandering, often incoherent ramblings, mistakes, and odd ticks on TRS and think we're either endearing or complete ass-morons (Hey, did I just coin a new term?) It has a lot to do with what you bring to it. I'm just glad there are enough of you that are as geeky and passionate as we are to identify with what we're doing. So, um, thanks guys!

/end pandering rant of love

g'night :)

-Jeff

If they watched the Shield with you, they might've liked it more too. There's numerous things that I tend to be more fond of because of the crowd I'm watching it with are more into it than myself - causing myself to have more fun because they are (24 comes to mind). Either way, I'm curious how die hard you'd be for a movie of The Shield. For me, I paid a fair amount and drove 2 hours to see one of those early-previews of Serenity about 6 months before it was released. I have friends who are girls (oppose to calling them girlfriends) who are flying down your way to go to the Sex in the City movie premiere. If The Shield (the movie) was released, what lengths would you go to? Would you watch the (non-teaser) trailer before seeing it? What would you do for a Klondike Bar?

[itsbecca]

Okay. I'm mildly confused with the video game section. Is Ninja Gaiden really THAT much of a revolutionary change? Or do they just sound so excited because they haven't played Zelda? I recall stylus slashing to my hearts content on that one.

[glugory]

Okay. I'm mildly confused with the video game section. Is Ninja Gaiden really THAT much of a revolutionary change? Or do they just sound so excited because they haven't played Zelda? I recall stylus slashing to my hearts content on that one.

The combat in Ninja Gaiden is actually a bit more complex than the stuff in Zelda.

[quence]

I'd just like to introduce everybody to a web site called Universal Hints System. http://www.uhs-hints.com.

Maybe there's other web sites like this out there, but this is the one I always use, especially for adventure games. It lets you look at a series of hints, so if you're stuck, you get a little bit of help, but you don't feel cheated for not figuring the answer out yourself. Great resource.

Aaand I'm just a little into Season 5 of the Shield now, and I really, really, really love it. The Wire is probably next on my list of shows to watch.

[cooljammer00]

it might be unfair to East Coast teams, but you guys should mention sports. I mean, baseball season is starting.

Jeff had a Phillies hat during the Natural spoof, so I assume it was Dan's hat or something.

[tsmith15]

I never thought about sports. I love sports (except baseball, but I follow it when nothing else is on). My favorite part is all the numbers, percentages, etc.

I don't think it would fit in right though, with the rest of the show. Unless they just did a 'chew on this' segment about sports, I think it would throw the episode off.

[cooljammer00]

I never thought about sports. I love sports (except baseball, but I follow it when nothing else is on). My favorite part is all the numbers, percentages, etc.

I don't think it would fit in right though, with the rest of the show. Unless they just did a 'chew on this' segment about sports, I think it would throw the episode off.

or just give it a mention, at least. I mean, some geeks find it rad.

[neonshadow]

<to self>Please dear lord don't let them add a sports section</to self>

Maybe it's just me (and the people I hang around) but I wouldn't think there's much overlap between the geeks and sports people...

[gpdrummr]

just finished watching the episode.
kinda really dissapointed about the way they look at the psp. sure, whenever the psp came out. most if not all games were ported ps2 games. but look at it now. developers are coming out with specific psp games and moving away from ported games. look at GoW, Patapon, Wipeout Pulse, Crisis Core, the Syphone Filter series, beats, the atari classics evolved, socom tactical strike & socom fireteam bravo 2, ALL of these are made for the psp. then theres flow originally made flash game ported to the psp by sony itself. theses are the games that make psp not just a game ported system, but an actual system that has it's own games.
THEN theres the additional content.
music/video/pictures
Go!Messenger- europe "only" psp to psp video/voice/text chat.
LocationFree Player- just like a slingbox, its sony's verison of it.
Skype- amazing feature if you have a psp. say your like me. already using skype, and a cell phone, but living in a house where your cell phonedoesnt get reception, but you have wifi. i use this like crazy!
Remote play- fucking god, this is amazing.
Internet Radio- stream music straight from the web. anything and everything!
RSS feed- for keeping up with podcast or! for streaming music from your itunes straight to your psp! amazing feature.
and
the internet brower- if you have a portal. this make your psp ten billion times more amazing.

With all these features how could you go wrong with a psp.
my psp is with me just about anywhere! it just has so many uses.
thats just my say on the psp.
i reallly think alex,dan&jeff should get one. and realize how amazing it is.
=]

[darknessgp]

<to self>Please dear lord don't let them add a sports section</to self>

Maybe it's just me (and the people I hang around) but I wouldn't think there's much overlap between the geeks and sports people...

I can't really see them adding sports, partly because they will soon have many many fans skipping that section. Plus, which sports do you talk about? Basketball, football (American), football (Everyone else), Soccer, Polo, Hockey, Rugby, etc?

Also, TRS seems to be more of a media review. Games, movies, tv shows, comics, etc. They are types of media.

[damnedeyez]

TRS seems to be more of a media review. Games, movies, tv shows, comics, etc. They are types of media.

I consider them a visual media show...since everything they review has some sort of visual requirement.

[mttskates]

OK, with all of the debating and disscussion (spelled it just like the title of the forum) of The shield vs The wire, I have to list why I think the main points of why the two shows, that are equally really superior to an abundance amount of other drearily drawn out television shows, are being snapped in the ass with a wet towel and forced to hide under the big bed of truth.

One point for each should suffice, as both shows have these, but one without question certainly does it better than the other.

The Shield - Every Character big or small has a life changing morality check that all of us as humans can relate to in some way.

The Wire - Takes the both side premise of the movie Heat by Michael Mann and draws it out to allow the audience to get to know all of the characters intimately both on the side of good and not necessarily evil, but crime ridden, and become what all great storytelling tries to do and makes the audience care deeply about the characters.


Thats all I am saying and with that I believe that everyone will be able to agree that they are two wonderfully different shows within the same genre. Take them for what they are and not what they are not.

What was the Intro from?

[darknessgp]

I consider them a visual media show...since everything they review has some sort of visual requirement.

True. Guess it is visual media, especially since they've stated that they won't be doing music. Huh, guess that makes it an easier way to explain it to people, just tell them it's a visual media review show. I mean, they might still look at you like "WTF, is this guy on crack?" but it's an easier way to explain.

[isuldor]

just finished watching the episode.
kinda really dissapointed about the way they look at the psp. sure, whenever the psp came out. most if not all games were ported ps2 games. but look at it now. developers are coming out with specific psp games and moving away from ported games. look at GoW, Patapon, Wipeout Pulse, Crisis Core, the Syphone Filter series, beats, the atari classics evolved, socom tactical strike & socom fireteam bravo 2, ALL of these are made for the psp. then theres flow originally made flash game ported to the psp by sony itself. theses are the games that make psp not just a game ported system, but an actual system that has it's own games.

You probably missed it but I posted (http://revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16798&page=7#68) a couple pages back asking what games make the psp worthwhile for more than just its portable capacity. You listed some games, but after doing a little research I wonder if they really reach the mark?


Crisis Core - I'm playing this right now and have to agree with GameInformer (http://gameinformer.com/Games/Review/200804/R08.0325.1553.26486.htm) who says "this story is worth trudging through the foulest of gameplay for"
Patapon - a sort of rhythm game, actually looks pretty cool
Wipeout Pulse - looks like a console port (from ps3), but online play with a community does look interesting
Atari Classics - uh, really? 1UP "says the controls have been lost in translation" and Gamespot gave it a 5 out of 10
Syphone Filter series - renown action stealth games I'll have to check out, although GameSpy said the "the PSP is just not a good fit for a game with such an elaborate control scheme"
Socom - "If you have an extraordinarily high tolerance for cheap deaths, long load times, and insubordination, you could have a pretty darn good time" - 1UP

There still seems to be a sense that the PSP is not a particularly great gaming platform. That said, some of your recommendations do look really interesting. I picked up God of War and will try it out as soon as I finish Crisis Core, and I will see if I can find Patapon as well. Thanks.

PS - Wow, someone who waited longer than me to make their first post: 14 months!

[cooljammer00]

they don't need to add it, so much as maybe a shout out, or just a mention to sports. a "go Dodgers" or something, for them LA folk.

[heyseuss]

There still seems to be a sense that the PSP is not a particularly great gaming platform. That said, some of your recommendations do look really interesting.


Try Gun:Showdown.

[bruce-leroy]

This conversation may be long dead, but I just saw the episode and I wanted to get a few points in.

Jeff, I can't believe that what separates The Wire from The Shield for you is the dimensionality of the characters. So Omar and Bubbles are archetypes, but Vic Mackey isn't? Vic Mackey is just Dirty Harry. He's Hunter. He's Cobra. He's the tough white cop who is the thin blue line between order and chaos. He's got his own brand of street justice. He's a loose cannon. But he gets results.

Not only have we seen this "rogue cop" character a million times, he's the worst, most overused cliche in the history of film!

The villains in The Shield, (and especially, I'm sorry to say, the minority villains) are even worse stereotypes. The vicious Latin gang leader. The huckster black nationalist preacher. The rapper/drug dealer. The middle-class white serial killer. And on and on.

I also can't help but notice that you seem to define dimensionality in a way that privileges The Shield. You seem to speak as though dimensionality is moral ambivalence. This way of framing the issue seems to automatically favor The Shield, since The Shield is structured as a character piece about a morally ambivalent person who faces a moral dilemma every week. So it's quite unsurprising that The Shield comes out the better in your analysis!

I think The Wire works in a different way, as The Wire isn't (or isn't just) character drama, it's social commentary. Thus, whereas The Shield attempts to place its characters in moral dilemmas, The Wire attempts to place its audience in moral dilemmas.

The Shield is pure entertainment. Nothing that happens in the show is indicative of anything that actually matters to us. Maybe there are Vic Mackeys in the world, maybe there aren't. At the end of the day it hardly matters to us.

But we know there are real Michaels and Dookies in the world. We know there are real schools and foster homes and group homes like the ones they were forced into. We know we actually have a drug policy that isn't working and that is destroying the lives of a generation of poor people. We know we have politicians who are more interested in the appearance of progress than in substantive change.

I'm sure it sounds corny, the difference between the two shows on this score to me is this: at the end of an episode of The Shield, I'm asking myself "What is Vic Mackey going to do?". But at the end of an episode of The Wire, I'm asking myself "What am I going to do?" After I see The Shield, I want to watch another episode. After I see The Wire, I want to adopt.

This is already sprawling, but I want to end by addressing the notion that Omar and Bubs are just 2-dimensional stereotypes with "hearts of gold". I think that this idea is only plausible if we insist on defining as 3-D only characters who we see facing moral dilemmas. I think Bubs and Omar are fascinating characters precisely because we meet these characters when they have ceased to face their own depravity as a dilemma. There may have been a time when the decision to hustle a working man out of ten dollars was a moral dilemma for Bubs, but by the time we meet him he is too far gone for that. But Bubs has dimension to me because he has fully accepted the fact that he's a drug addict, yet he still tries to live within the morality of "the game". He does this even though he already knows, as most characters in the show eventually find out, that "the game is rigged". But still he and Omar (and Bodie and Kima and dozens of others in the show) attempt to follow the rules of a moral system that they know will ultimately fail them. These are people who knowingly and consciously choose to obey the rules of a game that's rigged to insure their downfall rather than to play with no rules at all. And as you know, many characters die for that decision. I do not agree that simply because many of these characters have lines they won't cross, that this makes them two-dimensional.

SPOILER!

Take for example Bodies decision not to run from his corner when Marlowe's men came to take it over, but to stand and die defending it. He did this because he believed deeply in the ethics of the corner. He was obviously not against killing when the game called for killing; he killed one of his best friends in the first season (there's a moral dilemma for you!). But he could not abide the fact that Marlowe killed for little to no reason, and he would not bow to such a tyrant, even if it meant his life. Your analysis, I feel, would lead us to believe that Bodie was 2-d because he was never seriously tempted to throw in with Marlow. But I don't see it that way. I find the decision to die for a flawed moral code rather than to live with no moral code at all to be a very morally complex position to stake out.

END SPOILER!

I'm rambling all over the place, but this is all I guess to say that I don't see either Bubs or Omar as having stereotypical hearts of gold. These are both guys who over the course of the story did very bad things. They stole, they murdered, they tricked money away from innocent people for their own ends, and they knowingly pulled several other people into their lifestyles and got them killed. What was compelling about both of them is that they made for themselves lines that they wouldn't cross. And I don't think they are automatically 2-d for seeing that line and not crossing it, nor is Vic Mackey automatically 3-d for seeing that line and crossing it. I just don't agree with your reasoning here.

Anyway, I have many, many more things to say, but I'll stop here.

[trsjeff]

Thanks for the cogent reply, Bruce. I do appreciate it. However, I must admit that reading what you've written here makes me think that I have completely failed to articulate my point with any kind of clarity.

I do not think that simply one show has moral dilemmas and the other doesn't and therefore Moral Dilemma Show > Non-Moral Dilemma show. No, I think, actually, that what these two shows are trying to do is inherently different,
that the multi-dimensionality of the characters is a byproduct of that difference, and that I, as a very subjective viewer, prefer one type of storytelling over the other.


So Omar and Bubbles are archetypes, but Vic Mackey isn't? Vic Mackey is just Dirty Harry. He's Hunter. He's Cobra. He's the tough white cop who is the thin blue line between order and chaos. He's got his own brand of street justice. He's a loose cannon. But he gets results.

I'm not sure how much of The Shield you've watched, but that's not it at all. What you've described is the FX promo-for-the-Shield version of the character, the surface area. In reality, what the show is ABOUT is taking this "stereotype" and blowing it wide open, to really see how the character ticks, to put this character into more and more difficult, personal situations and watching him think and claw his way out.

I think The Wire works in a different way, as The Wire isn't (or isn't just) character drama, it's social commentary. Thus, whereas The Shield attempts to place its characters in moral dilemmas, The Wire attempts to place its audience in moral dilemmas.

No. You're correct that The Wire is social commentary. But it is social commentary with an AGENDA. It has no interest in putting the audience into a moral dilemma. It wants to make a point. A VERY SPECIFIC point. The Wire has already made up its mind about how things would work if you legalized drugs, or started charter programs in school - there is no ambiguity there. All it is interested in is showing the audience how tragic it is that THE SYSTEM disallows such forward thinking.

The Shield is bolder. It presents its drama without taking sides. The most brilliant thing about the show is that the "enemies" (for example, Forest Whittaker) are actually correct! They are armed with the truth!

The Shield is pure entertainment. Nothing that happens in the show is indicative of anything that actually matters to us. Maybe there are Vic Mackeys in the world, maybe there aren't. At the end of the day it hardly matters to us.

That is, of course, true FOR YOU. And others (Dan, perhaps). But it is a totally subjective argument.

But we know there are real Michaels and Dookies in the world. We know there are real schools and foster homes and group homes like the ones they were forced into. We know we actually have a drug policy that isn't working and that is destroying the lives of a generation of poor people. We know we have politicians who are more interested in the appearance of progress than in substantive change.

True. But all of these examples present one side of an issue. I happen to agree it is a VERY sympathetic, interesting, compelling side - but read over that list you wrote again. That is a show with an agenda. It is about presenting these problems - "Here are the problems". There is no question other than "What are you going to do about it?" I admit that this is an interesting question, but not as nearly interesting to me as a viewer as the question "What is the problem?" And that is exactly what shows like The Sopranos, Six Feet Under, West Wing, and, yes, The Shield ask. What is it to be human, really.

And that really is my point. The reason these characters feel 2d to me is that the show isn't ABOUT them! It is about the mosaic of how they all bump into one another - how all their little, selfish actions add up to create this SYSTEM which is impenetrable and unbeatable.

I love these kinds of discussions, and I thank you for engaging in one here with me, but I'm sure we've both bored readers to tears by now. So I'll sign off.

Bottom line: Both are good shows. I prefer one over the other.

Interesting side note: I got to meet Jaime Hector today IRL. He played Marlo Stanfield. Terrifying character, but nice guy!

-Jeff

[diane]

I just wanted to say thank you. This has been one of the most entertaining and intelligent threads I have ever read. The thought, the care, the passion behind all these replies is remarkable. I took pop culture courses in college and none of the discussions ever got to the depth that is being discussed here. I almost wish there was more of this in the other threads were people could pick a show and discuss it in such depth and articulation.

So often people just watch shows without actually thinking about what is the goal of the show. They don't stop to see if they are using stereotypes or archetypes, is there a specific agenda, what is it contributing to society and art.

Thank you. It is lovely to see people appreciating tv shows on more than just a unplug the brain level.

...And Buffy is still better ;)

[bruce-leroy]

I can't have bored anybody, I just got here!

Thanks for the reply. I just have a few more things to get off my chest:

I've seen every episode of The Shield, I believe, and I do think that Vic is simply Dirty Harry as relates to the criminals on the show. He's Dirty Harry in terms of the "criminal of the week", but I'll agree some dimensionality is added to the character as regards the series-wide arc. I also have to admit that I just don't like what I think the show is saying about minority communities when it seems to be saying that people like Vic Mackey are necessary to police such communities. That's a big part of why I appreciate the show as a quality drama, but on a visceral level, I just don't like it.

SPOILERS!

I disagree that the Wire also has a very specific agenda. I particularly disagree as regards the drug legalization issue. Simon showed that in a very ambivalent light. Bunny's moral compass, the Rev, was against it from the start. Then there was the elderly lady who refused to be evacuated from Amsterdam, and the reality of what legalization-zones would do to people who, through no fault of their own, happened to live near such zones. And there was the scene where Bunny looked over Hamsterdam, at the glut of drug addicts behaving like zombies, and had a "What have I done?" moment. Bubs also obviously had a problem with it, though he never said so, you could just tell by his horror at seeing Hamsterdam. And let us not forget that this is the place where Johnny went (happily, it seemed!) to die. I think if you asked Bunny himself if he'd done the right thing by legalizing drugs, he wouldn't be able to tell you. I don't think the show at all had a specific agenda or gave easy answers as to how to solve the drug crisis. The only clear message was the one you picked up on, that the present situation is effed up, but still, people who try to change it will be punished.

I also disagree that the show is just saying that Charter schools are the solution to the school crisis. I thought Simon was fairly-clear that the problem with inner-city schools is that inner-city kids have way more stuff to deal with than just school. How would a charter school have helped any of those kids? Dookie's parents still would have been drug addicts who don't even provide soap and water for him, and Michael's mom would have still been a crack-addict in love with a child molester. Randy's foster mother still would have been burned alive by thugs and Namond's mother would have still been pushing him out of school and onto the corners. The fourth season was about how all the fallout from the drug war, and the economic collapse of the inner-cities falls onto the shoulders of children, who end up having to raise themselves. And if you saw some easy answers and a clear agenda as to how to solve that problem in the show, please tell me what it is (or forget me - tell the government!). When Randy was crying out at the end of the 4th season "You gonna look out for me?!", I felt like he was talking not just to me, but to all of us. And while that's clearly indicative of an agenda, it's not indicative of easy answers, or social crusading. The show makes us aware of a problem, and it makes us aware of it (particularly in the 4th season) by showing us characters we care about and then showing those characters being crushed by the problems. But it doesn't present easy answers, if that's what you are saying.

END SPOILERS!

I just disagree that the show isn't ultimately about them. I don't think The Wire is an allegory or a morality play. It's much deeper than that. I cared very deeply for many of the characters. I agree that the show isn't necessarily about them, if by that you're just saying the show isn't a character-study. But I think they were all real, fleshed-out people. And a big part of why I like The Wire better than The Shield is that everyone on The Wire seemed like a real person to me. Whereas on The Shield, there's 3 or 4 characters that have dimension but many of the "throwaway" characters (particularly the minority ones) are simply not real human beings; they are writer's creations. I think that many of the characters in The Wire are based on real people, which is why they don't feel any less real to me, even if the author has a point in telling me these people's stories, because the author seems to genuinely care about all of them.

Okay, end rant. I've heard other people say that Jamie Hector was a nice guy, too. (Which shocked me because I didn't even know he was an actor, I thought he was one of the "real guys" they got off the corners. Ditto Kenard, who I learned a couple weeks ago is a very nerdy, suburban kid in real life!)

[darknessgp]

First, I'll say that I don't watch either the Wire or the Shield. I tried watching the Shield, and after a season of it, I couldn't get into it.

I think part of the problem is both what you watched first and how they were hyped up. If we take a step back and look at it.

Jeff (Correct me if I am wrong) probably discovered the Shield on his own. No one was telling him about it. Then for the Wire, it came up right after talking about the Shield, which instantly means he's going to be comparing them in some way. But he gets Alex, Dan, and apparently tons of emails/forum posts from people telling him how great it is. He watches it, and it doesn't completely live up to the hype.

Then there is Dan and Alex. Like Jeff, they probably discovered the Wire themselves. Then they go on TRS, and almost constantly have Jeff telling them how great the Shield is. They watch it, and it doesn't live up to the hype for them.

I think the problem is the same that problem that Jeff, me and others try to avoid with movies. Trailers that reveal to much and/or misrepresent the movie. We get some hype built up and then while it may be a good movie, it doesn't live up to our expectations that the trailers created. Now, this is probably worse for a TV show, seeing as some of them take a while to get really really good, as you are spending the time getting to know the character and not appreciating some things. I say that because there are only two shows out of the lots that I love that I have ever watched the first episode or two and fallen in love with, those are Firefly and Sliders. All the others, I started to towards the ends of their first season.

[gonzooo]

There have been some great posts with great points in this thread, and I think everyone deserves a "thank you" for keeping things civilized throughout.

Please, continue with the epic radness. :)

[dannyt]

...just Directa your Feetsa to Daddy Greens Pizza!

(if you get that reference than you know how much of a fan I am of some of the recent posts!)

[bruce-leroy]

Sho Nuff!

[damnedeyez]

...


can we skip the glowing part though?

[smartypants]

No. You're correct that The Wire is social commentary. But it is social commentary with an AGENDA. It has no interest in putting the audience into a moral dilemma. It wants to make a point. A VERY SPECIFIC point. The Wire has already made up its mind about how things would work if you legalized drugs, or started charter programs in school - there is no ambiguity there. All it is interested in is showing the audience how tragic it is that THE SYSTEM disallows such forward thinking.

The Shield is bolder. It presents its drama without taking sides. The most brilliant thing about the show is that the "enemies" (for example, Forest Whittaker) are actually correct! They are armed with the truth!
-Jeff

This is one of the key points, to me. Since The Wire really is a show that is trying to make a specific point, after a while I just kind of say, "Ok, I get the point... life sucks, no matter how hard you try, the system is going to chew you up and spit you out." (I know I'm oversimplifying here) It's a good point to make, and it does it really well, and it's still an enthralling show to watch. But that's one reason I think The Shield is better.

Also, Bruce, you said you did not like the way The Shield made the point that these bad neighborhoods need someone like Vic Mackey to get the job done. I never thought the show was trying to make that point. As Jeff was saying, I don't think The Shield really takes a side, it doesn't have an agenda or a point to make. It's just a drama that puts these characters (that you grow very invested in) in incredibly difficult situations, and we watch as they struggle to deal with them somehow. That's why I love The Shield.

P.S. - Earlier I think someone argued that Omar is not a Robin Hood character... he's just a thief, he never gives to the poor. This, however, is not true. In the first season we see him give free drugs to that woman who comes up to him, carrying a baby.

[bruce-leroy]

Also, Bruce, you said you did not like the way The Shield made the point that these bad neighborhoods need someone like Vic Mackey to get the job done. I never thought the show was trying to make that point. As Jeff was saying, I don't think The Shield really takes a side, it doesn't have an agenda or a point to make. It's just a drama that puts these characters (that you grow very invested in) in incredibly difficult situations, and we watch as they struggle to deal with them somehow. That's why I love The Shield.

The show consistently shows that only Mackey and his crew are capable of stopping street level criminals. The people who respect due process and the rights of the Blacks and Latinos in the community are portrayed as being weak and unable to deal with the gang leaders and the drug dealers. Sure, Claudette and Dutch can catch a serial killer every once in a while, but even they are depicted as completely helpless when it comes to the street corner types. The show seems to say that to deal with those kind of people, you need to ignore the rule of law.

IIRC, there was one episode in season 1 in which this was very explicit. There was a Latino officer, a former gang banger, whose MO was to treat the gang members with respect. Vic thought that was nonsense, you had to crack their heads and let God sort them out. By the end of the episode, it turned out that Mackey's way was correct; the gang leader the Latino cop trusted lied to him, and at the end of the episode the Latino cop was indiscriminately cracking brown heads just like Mackey was. And all was right with the world.

I don't say this to cast aspersions on anybody who enjoys the show. I enjoy the show. But if you talk to people of color who have seen a lot of it, many agree that there is some very ugly racial stuff at the core of the show's perspective. Beyond the n-bombs the characters drop, and the episodes named after racial slurs (there was an episode in the 3rd or 4th season, IIRC, named "Tarbaby", which prominently featured a young black girl) there is an unquestioned perspective on poor people of color that I find disturbing.

True enough, the show does not take sides about Mackey, but it does have a definite perspective on how poor black and brown criminals are most effectively dealt with. Mackey regularly engages in brutality, that brutality is never questioned, and it's portrayed as not only as being an effective way to deal with certain suspects, but as being the only effective way to deal with certain suspects. Now that might not be so conscious on the writer's part to qualify as an agenda, but it's definitely a position, and one from which the writers, in my recollection, never deviate.

I'm sure it's possible to enjoy the show and never really notice this. I enjoyed the show despite the fact that I couldn't help but notice it. So I'm not saying anything about the people who are fans of the show. I bet the writers might not even realize they're doing this until somebody points it out to them.

[trsjeff]

The show consistently shows that only Mackey and his crew are capable of stopping street level criminals. The people who respect due process and the rights of the Blacks and Latinos in the community are portrayed as being weak and unable to deal with the gang leaders and the drug dealers. Sure, Claudette and Dutch can catch a serial killer every once in a while, but even they are depicted as completely helpless when it comes to the street corner types. The show seems to say that to deal with those kind of people, you need to ignore the rule of law.

IIRC, there was one episode in season 1 in which this was very explicit. There was a Latino officer, a former gang banger, whose MO was to treat the gang members with respect. Vic thought that was nonsense, you had to crack their heads and let God sort them out. By the end of the episode, it turned out that Mackey's way was correct; the gang leader the Latino cop trusted lied to him, and at the end of the episode the Latino cop was indiscriminately cracking brown heads just like Mackey was. And all was right with the world.

I don't say this to cast aspersions on anybody who enjoys the show. I enjoy the show. But if you talk to people of color who have seen a lot of it, many agree that there is some very ugly racial stuff at the core of the show's perspective. Beyond the n-bombs the characters drop, and the episodes named after racial slurs (there was an episode in the 3rd or 4th season, IIRC, named "Tarbaby", which prominently featured a young black girl) there is an unquestioned perspective on poor people of color that I find disturbing.

True enough, the show does not take sides about Mackey, but it does have a definite perspective on how poor black and brown criminals are most effectively dealt with. Mackey regularly engages in brutality, that brutality is never questioned, and it's portrayed as not only as being an effective way to deal with certain suspects, but as being the only effective way to deal with certain suspects. Now that might not be so conscious on the writer's part to qualify as an agenda, but it's definitely a position, and one from which the writers, in my recollection, never deviate.

I'm sure it's possible to enjoy the show and never really notice this. I enjoyed the show despite the fact that I couldn't help but notice it. So I'm not saying anything about the people who are fans of the show. I bet the writers might not even realize they're doing this until somebody points it out to them.

You are certainly entitled to your reaction here, Bruce, but it seems to me you're deciding to view The Shield from this perspective. It is just as easy to notice the numerous white criminals that Mackey et al bust, or the amazing, intelligent, capable, honorable acts from minority characters all over the show, from CCH Pounder, Forest Whittaker, Michael Jace, and Benito Martinez and more. Indeed, Vic Mackey and the Strike Team are criminals themselves! Mackey's brutality may be shown to be effective, but it is precisely because he is just as base and out of control as his opponents. That's the point! I respect a lot of your previous points, but honestly think this is a silly criticism for the show. This is not a show about race. No one is a good guy and no one is a bad guy. Everyone is a shade of gray.
-Jeff

[darthender]

I can't really see them adding sports, partly because they will soon have many many fans skipping that section. Plus, which sports do you talk about? Basketball, football (American), football (Everyone else), Soccer, Polo, Hockey, Rugby, etc?The other thing is, if I wanna listen to some guys talk about sports, I already have, like, 4 stations on my TV that do that 24/7.

If I wanna hear guys talk about geek stuff, TRS is an oasis in the desert.

[tnvwboy]

Wow this The Shield vs. The Wire discussion/debate is STILL going. Heh! (watch this), I've never even seen either one. :P

[3rdseed]

First and foremost i'd like tho say that i never really got into The Shield. I've seen it a few times, thought it was a pretty good show, but nothing about it really moved me to have to see more. Although this discussion might make me use that Netflix code and see he whole series so i can really compare the shows.

Now with that being said, The Wire is one of my favorite shows of all time. I'm aware that my POV may be slightly bias cause I'm a native of Baltimore but I have never seen anything that captures the reality of life in the city like The Wire. Every character in the show is believable to me cause I have meet them or heard/read about them over the years. Like, Bubbles is a straight up guy just got caught by the lure of drug addiction. He aways had a "heart of gold" as Jeff put it, its just that addiction drove his mind and body in a different direction. Now im not sure how this sounds, but its alot of junkies that are really cool people. And i don't remember seeing a junkie depicted quite how Bubbles is. He isn't a heartless dirtbag that only cares about himself and the next high. But it would have been easy to make a character like that, but by making him the way they did just makes the character real IMO.

And another poster stated that the show is "frustrating". Well, welcome to Baltimore City. If its one way to describe how this place works its frustrating. Cause no matter what you do, the system in place wins and your right back where you started. Bleak and unsettling as it sounds, its just the way it is. Gotta lot more to say but unfortunately I have to go to work. Big fan of the show and i hope i didn't embarrass myself with this first post. Peace

[bruce-leroy]

Jeff, I do notice all the other stuff, which is why despite my misgivings I still watch the show. I'm just saying that, if it weren't for that aspect of the program, The Shield would be much higher on my list. (But still nowhere near The Wire, which IMO is easily the best television show ever produced.)

If it were just me, I'd probably agree with you that it might be a silly point to make and maybe I was just overreacting. But I've talked to a lot of other people of color who have seen the show, and it's not just me. Nuff said.

[nobodysleeps]

First and foremost i'd like tho say that i never really got into The Shield. I've seen it a few times, thought it was a pretty good show, but nothing about it really moved me to have to see more. Although this discussion might make me use that Netflix code and see he whole series so i can really compare the shows.

Now with that being said, The Wire is one of my favorite shows of all time. I'm aware that my POV may be slightly bias cause I'm a native of Baltimore but I have never seen anything that captures the reality of life in the city like The Wire. Every character in the show is believable to me cause I have meet them or heard/read about them over the years. Like, Bubbles is a straight up guy just got caught by the lure of drug addiction. He aways had a "heart of gold" as Jeff put it, its just that addiction drove his mind and body in a different direction. Now im not sure how this sounds, but its alot of junkies that are really cool people. And i don't remember seeing a junkie depicted quite how Bubbles is. He isn't a heartless dirtbag that only cares about himself and the next high. But it would have been easy to make a character like that, but by making him the way they did just makes the character real IMO.

And another poster stated that the show is "frustrating". Well, welcome to Baltimore City. If its one way to describe how this place works its frustrating. Cause no matter what you do, the system in place wins and your right back where you started. Bleak and unsettling as it sounds, its just the way it is. Gotta lot more to say but unfortunately I have to go to work. Big fan of the show and i hope i didn't embarrass myself with this first post. Peace


It's great that you were driven to post about The Wire for your first post. I have so much to say but I think so many people are saying what I want to say better than I can. I just can't really stay at my computer and articulate it the way I want because there is so much I want to say and I feel if I try to I'll just start rambling and sound like an idiot.

----

I've been watching the Wire again from the beginning since I was trying to get my dad to watch it. He really really likes it and he never likes anything. So I'm happy I got my dad into it.

[longklaw]

I just bought the first season of Babylon 5 myself. I haven't seen these episodes in about 10 years. Please don't judge it by the first season alone. It gets much better after that.