Affirmitive Action

[phatlip12]

Everyone has been getting along so well as of lately. It's starting to sort of freak me out. I decided to spice things up a little but with something I think will be a controversial but interesting debate. :)

Affirmative action- what's your guys opinion of it?

Personally, I think it's BS. I understand why it's in place but I think it causes more harm then anything else. I think the biggest issue we as a society face in regards to racism/prejudice is an overall awareness that we're "different". The truth is, we're obviously not. I think we need to stop making ourself so aware of our "differences". Lets stop labeling each other thinking that it's helpful, great and empowering. We have "black colleges", "black history month" etc. Why don't we for a second stop labeling ourselves. How can we possibly ever see each other as equals if we continue labeling ourselves like this? One should never forget their heritage, I just don't think it should be so in your face- I think it only causes harm. Things such as affirmative action contribute to this. Progress can't be rushed and things such as affirmative action only attempts to rush it IMO.

[esophagus]

Affirmative action is crap. My mother works for an agency that helps the homeless, handicapped, and jobless find employment. She says she gets calls from employers all the time that are trying to fill "quotas" of all the different groups they need to hire. Obviously, it's an effort to make them appear more politically correct, but in my opinion it does exactly the opposite. It just makes everyone more aware of the problem. Being aware of the problem is just useless. How is hiring a person for being, say, black any different than not hiring a person for being black. Either way your motive is thinking of the other person as very different from yourself.

[mr-underachiever]

Not only is it B.S., it's also quite demeaning. It's basically telling people of a certain group that they're inferior, and they can't get a job or into college without some sort of handout.

[damnedeyez]

Yep...how do we end discrimination when everything winds up broken down by ethnicity, etc.

[phatlip12]

Not only is it B.S., it's also quite demeaning. It's basically telling people of a certain group that they're inferior, and they can't get a job or into college without some sort of handout.

Agreed, it's sort of like winning a game only to find out the other person let you win. What pride is there in that?

I'll admit, if I was in the position initially I'd probably be happy and excited. "Suckers!". Then reality would sink in that I got the position not based on my knowledge or character but by the way I look and the feeling would go away. I'd definitely be offended.

[rabidbadger]

I think it should be faded out over time, bit by bit, but when it was first implemented it was a necessary evil. Not so much now... but it wouldn't be better now if it was not put in place back when...

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I think it's awesome. I hope it stays around forever.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

I spend a good portion of my free time on political forums. There are so many people on some of these forums who would rather hire someone white over any other ethnicity..... some don't realize it, but there is still so much racism. I think AA is a necessary evil, and I wish we could do away with it, but I argue with bigots on a daily basis. I really don't think America is ready to get rid of AA yet.

[tokenuser]

I think AA is a necessary evil, and I wish we could do away with it, but I argue with bigots on a daily basis. I really don't think America is ready to get rid of AA yet.While ever AMERICANS refer to themselves as AFRICAN American, or MEXICAN American, or ITALIAN American, or ASIAN American ... there will be a need for Affimative Action.

Get people thinking about themselves as being American first, then "racial origin" second, and more importantly getting people to LOOK at others as being American first, and "racial origin" second, then you can get rid of AA.

[phatlip12]

I spend a good portion of my free time on political forums. There are so many people on some of these forums who would rather hire someone white over any other ethnicity..... some don't realize it, but there is still so much racism. I think AA is a necessary evil, and I wish we could do away with it, but I argue with bigots on a daily basis. I really don't think America is ready to get rid of AA yet.

So fix racism with racism? It's ok to do it to whites but not blacks? As long as it's "good racism" its ok?

I'm a democrat but I honestly don't understand why so many democrats support affirmative action yet oppose the death penalty. If its hypocritical to punish a murder with murder why is there no hypocrisy in reverse racism?

[Bohemian_Beauty]

I just save time and refer to myself as Swedish.

[skyz]

So fix racism with racism? It's ok to do it to whites but not blacks? As long as it's "good racism" its ok?

I'm a democrat but I honestly don't understand why so many democrats support affirmative action yet oppose the death penalty. If its hypocritical to punish a murder with murder why is there no hypocrisy in reverse racism?

whenever i fill out those forms that ask you to tell your ethnicity i feel deeply that it is wrong even though i am danish/american and therefore about as white as you can get

at one point i wanted to go to columbia university in nyc but the only full scholarship (actually it is a fellowship) requires that you be a minority

[njshadow]

Funny, I just saw that movie "American History X" the other day and then a thread like this comes up.

[autodas]

I'm obviously aghast at these classism policies that try to "level the playing field" by giving away positions to unqualified persons just to look politically correct. All that affirmative action does is remind people how that person got there and makes their achievements dubious. Individuals won't change their class status by supporting affirmative action. They will internalize the handouts as shame because they weren't able to achieve it by their own merits. Instead, they feel like impostors.
One look at Michelle Obama's thesis can tell you why she shouldn't have even been accepted to Princeton.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8642.html

[skyz]

I'm obviously aghast at these classism policies that try to "level the playing field" by giving away positions to unqualified persons just to look politically correct. All that affirmative action does is remind people how that person got there and makes their achievements dubious. Individuals won't change their class status by supporting affirmative action. They will internalize the handouts as shame because they weren't able to achieve it by their own merits. Instead, they feel like impostors.
One look at Michelle Obama's thesis can tell you why she shouldn't have even been accepted to Princeton.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8642.html

i can't get past the first paragraph it is not well written at all

first of all it attempts not tries (there is no try) and why is Black and White capitalized (i know i don't follow the rules but i do know them)

[skyz]

Funny, I just saw that movie "American History X" the other day and then a thread like this comes up.

synchronicity ;)

[ariastar]

A load of bull shit nowadays, forcing companies to hire based on race rather than qualifications, and resulting in animosity based on race. A necessary action in its day that no longer has a place and hurts more than it helps.

[esophagus]

I spend a good portion of my free time on political forums. There are so many people on some of these forums who would rather hire someone white over any other ethnicity..... some don't realize it, but there is still so much racism. I think AA is a necessary evil, and I wish we could do away with it, but I argue with bigots on a daily basis. I really don't think America is ready to get rid of AA yet.
So, a company hires someone, maybe based on ethnicity and maybe not. Another candidate suspects so and takes it out on the man who was hired. This hinders rather than helps.

Best case scenario, a company is forced to hire people of other races, and nothing changes.

I don't see how AA could possibly eliminate racism.

[ariastar]

Easier just to outsource our jobs and circumnavigate the rules. AA gives employers yet another reason to send jobs overseas. AA hurts a LOT more than it helps at this point. If one can prove an employer is biased based on race, okay, sue. But if a black man is not the more qualified candidate but MUST be hired over a white man to fill a racial quota, then the company suffers, society suffers, and intolerance builds up.

[kronos6948]

With my mutt like mix, I present either a boon or conundrum for wherever I apply.

I'm Italian, English, Cherokee, and Puerto Rican.

I'm sure there's got to be something for Hispanics and Native Americans.

So, what I think happens when I write all of this out on my applications (or ask what I should do when they say "Choose Only One"), is that they either choose the one they need for their quota if they're definitely hiring, or use me for both ethnicities.

But, I do have to say that my ethnicities have not gotten me a job on their own. I've been turned down for many a job as well as being hired.

[ariastar]

Everyone has been getting along so well as of lately. It's starting to sort of freak me out. I decided to spice things up a little but with something I think will be a controversial but interesting debate. :)

Wishin' I had a macro on hand 'cause your attempt at stirring the pot of a fail. :)

[Bohemian_Beauty]

So, a company hires someone, maybe based on ethnicity and maybe not. Another candidate suspects so and takes it out on the man who was hired. This hinders rather than helps.

Best case scenario, a company is forced to hire people of other races, and nothing changes.

I don't see how AA could possibly eliminate racism.

It doesn't really. I just see far too much racism and xenophobia going on around here to make me want to get rid of it.

[esophagus]

It doesn't really. I just see far too much racism and xenophobia going on around here to make me want to get rid of it.
Yeah, I don't think anyone here is saying to get rid of AA so that we can keep racism. Just that it isn't actually helping to get rid of it.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

Yeah, I don't think anyone here is saying to get rid of AA so that we can keep racism. Just that it isn't actually helping to get rid of it.

Yea.. Like I said. I think it's a necessary evil right now. :(


I wish it didn't have to be that way.

[esophagus]

Yea.. Like I said. I think it's a necessary evil right now. :(


I wish it didn't have to be that way.Which was my original question. Why is it a necessary evil? it doesn't actually do anything to help. What is it about affirmative action that you think is helping any scenario?

[Bohemian_Beauty]

It helps minorities get hired to jobs they may not get hired for because of their ethnicity. Until the time comes where employers aren't xenophobic pieces of shit, I think it's necessary to have that law in place.

[esophagus]

Alright. I completely disagree, but thats a good enough answer I guess.

[tokenuser]

Something has been bothering me, and this is a thread that I could ask it ...

Why does the African American community seem to have an affinity with Barack Obama? He is a "first generation" African American. His African roots don't go back to the 1700/1800's, they reach back to the 1960's.

He is American, but is he African American? Being African American seems to have a vertain connotation to it ... and he isn't.
Is he more African American than Jesse Jackson?

Not wanting to flame ... but associations by skin type are wrong. I was at a party over the weekend, where one of the African American's there were criticising Australia's treatment of the Aborigine people, and making comparisons to the US human rights movements of the 60's. Thats a great comparison I said, and then asked him what his affinity was to the Indian (native american) population. He said he had none. reality is that treatment of aborigine populations in Australia is more akin to treatment of native American tribes in the US - yet he couldn't get past the skin colour.

While people only look at skin colour there can be no equality.

[skyz]

Something has been bothering me, and this is a thread that I could ask it ...

Why does the African American community seem to have an affinity with Barack Obama? He is a "first generation" African American. His African roots don't go back to the 1700/1800's, they reach back to the 1960's.

He is American, but is he African American? Being African American seems to have a vertain connotation to it ... and he isn't.
Is he more African American than Jesse Jackson?

Not wanting to flame ... but associations by skin type are wrong. I was at a party over the weekend, where one of the African American's there were criticising Australia's treatment of the Aborigine people, and making comparisons to the US human rights movements of the 60's. Thats a great comparison I said, and then asked him what his affinity was to the Indian (native american) population. He said he had none. reality is that treatment of aborigine populations in Australia is more akin to treatment of native American tribes in the US - yet he couldn't get past the skin colour.

While people only look at skin colour there can be no equality.

actually obama is arab american he is only about 10 % or so black

people think kenyan = black but it is not fact

his father was an arab living in kenya so he is nowhere near as black as jesse jackson

it is just that african americans have suffered so much they want to believe that one of their own can be president

so you have a false battle between the oppressed african american (as perceived) and the oppressed female gender

it is interesting to see which oppressed minority (though in actuality women are a majority in numbers) generates the most hate

it is not pretty but interesting because unfortunately hate is very real

kenneth lamb on obama arab american (http://kennethelamb.blogspot.com/2008/02/barak-obama-questions-about-ethnic.html)

atlashrugged obama arab american (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/02/obama-arab-amer.html)

[Bohemian_Beauty]

actually obama is arab american he is only about 10 % or so black

people think kenyan = black but it is not fact

his father was an arab living in kenya so he is nowhere near as black as jesse jackson

it is just that african americans have suffered so much they want to believe that one of their own can be president

so you have a false battle between the oppressed african american (as perceived) and the oppressed female gender

it is interesting to see which oppressed minority (though in actuality women are a majority in numbers) generates the most hate

it is not pretty but interesting because unfortunately hate is very real

kenneth lamb on obama arab american (http://kennethelamb.blogspot.com/2008/02/barak-obama-questions-about-ethnic.html)

atlashrugged obama arab american (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/02/obama-arab-amer.html)
Snopes disagrees with you Skyz.

Baracks father was a black Muslim. (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/Muslim.asp)

http://www.mittreport.com/archives/images/obama270107_228x537.jpg

He was Muslim, black and form Kenya. What makes him arab?

[Bohemian_Beauty]

Something has been bothering me, and this is a thread that I could ask it ...

Why does the African American community seem to have an affinity with Barack Obama? He is a "first generation" African American. His African roots don't go back to the 1700/1800's, they reach back to the 1960's.


Considering that many many African Americans still don't get treated equally in this country, I would think that they find comfort in Barack Obama and the promises he's made to better the divide between race in this country, which is still very prevalent.

[ariastar]

It helps minorities get hired to jobs they may not get hired for because of their ethnicity. Until the time comes where employers aren't xenophobic pieces of shit, I think it's necessary to have that law in place.

You know there are areas where there are as many, if not more, minorities, than whites? Places where the so-called minorities are the majority? And most high-up positions are held by the same "minorities"? With the assistance of AA, it's law for them to pick the minorities, in effect creating a reverse situation. Instead of a white man hiring a white man from the majority, you've got an Indian man hiring another Indian man from the majority.

There are SOME employers who still discriminate, but not most. Forcing all into the stream of AA is creating a lot of animosity and keeping discrimination alive. When you know someone who actually didn't get a job, into school, lost a grant, etc., because of AA, you start to see its negative effects.

Sadly I have known some people who now openly hate black people or Mexicans or another group of people because they personally lost out to a less qualified person of another race. Their own lives were actually hindered by AA.

Something else that's happened with schools being forced to fill quotas is that they are taking students not as qualified as others, and those students are dropping out. Those spots could have been filled instead by qualified candidates.

Something I do want to see in the name of equality is a scholarship for white people. If it's legal to have them for blacks, Indians, whatever, well, fair's fair. White people are being given more of a leg to stand on to cry discrimination every day. Rather than everyone coming together, race is still being made an issue, and we are still on teams competing against each other.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

You know there are areas where there are as many, if not more, minorities, than whites? Places where the so-called minorities are the majority? And most high-up positions are held by the same "minorities"? With the assistance of AA, it's law for them to pick the minorities, in effect creating a reverse situation. Instead of a white man hiring a white man from the majority, you've got an Indian man hiring another Indian man from the majority.

There are SOME employers who still discriminate, but not most. Forcing all into the stream of AA is creating a lot of animosity and keeping discrimination alive. When you know someone who actually didn't get a job, into school, lost a grant, etc., because of AA, you start to see its negative effects.

Sadly I have known some people who now openly hate black people or Mexicans or another group of people because they personally lost out to a less qualified person of another race. Their own lives were actually hindered by AA.

Something else that's happened with schools being forced to fill quotas is that they are taking students not as qualified as others, and those students are dropping out. Those spots could have been filled instead by qualified candidates.

Something I do want to see in the name of equality is a scholarship for white people. If it's legal to have them for blacks, Indians, whatever, well, fair's fair. White people are being given more of a leg to stand on to cry discrimination every day. Rather than everyone coming together, race is still being made an issue, and we are still on teams competing against each other.

I live n Southern California. I am sometimes the minority. How do you know these people didn't get hired because they're not a minority. Did the employer say 'Sorry, we have to fill our quota, and you're just too.... white'? Did the school say I'm sorry, but Affirmitive Action says we've got to recruit this young hispanic man first.'?

I've never had a problem getting into a school or hired at a job, and to my knowledge, neither have any of my friends.

If people openly hate an ethnicity because the law fucked them over, that's totally ignorant and close-minded. I feel sorry for them.

It's the white mans burden. We've been treating other ethnicities like lesser humans for hundreds of years. We finally pull our heads out of our asses and give them equal rights in the last 40 years, and all of the sudden everything is peachy. The fact is that there are still millions of racist and bigoted people in this country that make it hard for minorities to live their lives the way say... I live mine.

Until racism dies out, I think affirmative action, or something like it.. needs to be implemented into our judicial system.

I have no issue with scholarships geared towards minorities. There are plenty of scholarships for people no matter their ethnicity. Maybe someday, minorities won't have a need for race specific scholarships.

[phatlip12]

Until racism dies out, I think affirmative action, or something like it.. needs to be implemented into our judicial system.


How can racism die out if affirmative action in itself IS racism? Racism is discrimination of a person based on race. How exactly is giving a person a job due to their race not discrimination based on race?

Is it because it's "good racism". If so, is it acceptable to go up to a random Asian person and say "Wow! You must be GREAT at math?"? After all, being good at math is a good thing right? So is it ok to say that?

No, its not. Affirmative action is cleaned up racism with sparkles and glitter on it. You can't fight racism with racism. You can't teach equality by constantly pointing out our "differences".

"Until racism dies out". I'm sorry dear, but thats never going to happen. :(

[Bohemian_Beauty]

How can racism die out if affirmative action in itself IS racism? Racism is discrimination of a person based on race. How exactly is giving a person a job due to their race not discrimination based on race?

Is it because it's "good racism". If so, is it acceptable to go up to a random Asian person and say "Wow! You must be GREAT at math?"? After all, being good at math is a good thing right? So is it ok to say that?

No, its not. Affirmative action is cleaned up racism with sparkles and glitter on it. You can't fight racism with racism. You can't teach equality by constantly pointing out our "differences".

"Until racism dies out". I'm sorry dear, but thats never going to happen. :(
I'm sorry. I'd rather see minorities get a chance, than be shunned because of their skin color. They've been given the shit end of the stick for hundreds of years.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[phatlip12]

Something I do want to see in the name of equality is a scholarship for white people. If it's legal to have them for blacks, Indians, whatever, well, fair's fair. White people are being given more of a leg to stand on to cry discrimination every day. Rather than everyone coming together, race is still being made an issue, and we are still on teams competing against each other.

Ideally, I'd like to see scholarships based on race done away with all together. You do however bring up an interesting idea.

Why is it ok for every other race to have pride in their race yet its racists for a white person to do the same? Why does the word "black power" cause people to think about community, strength, progress and power yet the word "white power" makes you think of racists hillbillies?

Don't get me wrong, having pride in your roots is great but why put a label on yourself? If its wrong for others to label you based on your background then why is it acceptable for you to do the same.

African American, Asian American, Latin American- why don't we cut the crap, and stop labeling each other. America is a melting pot. The term "American" covers blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians etc IMO. Why can't we simply refer to ourselves as Americans?

[ariastar]

I live n Southern California. I am sometimes the minority. How do you know these people didn't get hired because they're not a minority. Did the employer say 'Sorry, we have to fill our quota, and you're just too.... white'? Did the school say I'm sorry, but Affirmitive Action says we've got to recruit this young hispanic man first.'?

I've never had a problem getting into a school or hired at a job, and to my knowledge, neither have any of my friends.

If people openly hate an ethnicity because the law fucked them over, that's totally ignorant and close-minded. I feel sorry for them.

It's the white mans burden. We've been treating other ethnicities like lesser humans for hundreds of years. We finally pull our heads out of our asses and give them equal rights in the last 40 years, and all of the sudden everything is peachy. The fact is that there are still millions of racist and bigoted people in this country that make it hard for minorities to live their lives the way say... I live mine.

Until racism dies out, I think affirmative action, or something like it.. needs to be implemented into our judicial system.

I have no issue with scholarships geared towards minorities. There are plenty of scholarships for people no matter their ethnicity. Maybe someday, minorities won't have a need for race specific scholarships.

Yeah, I actually have known people who've been turned down for being white, and were told so. I asked my attorney-aunt if there wasn't something that could be done for one of them, but she told that AA laws prevent this from being legal discrimination because he is white, that if he were another race, then there'd be a case. The quotas are to ensure a minimum number of certain minorities, not to ensure a maximum of any race. So he was shit out of luck and it destroyed him inside because he worked his ass off to get into that school and his barring fact was he is white, and was openly told so.

It's not the "white man's burden." Why should you or I have to pay for what people hundreds of years ago did? We are being punished now for things that happened before we were even conceived. People benefiting from this are benefiting from something they themselves did not experience.

You know what a twisted reality is? While this doesn't make okay what has happened, it's a true fact that black Africans (I say that as Charlize Theron is African, but white by race) in Africa have is so much worse than black people in America ever could. If it were not for what they went through, then the blacks in America would be...well, African's infamous for its horrifying treatment of people to this very day for a reason, treatment that makes slavery in the 1800's look like a vacation. The black people in America because of slavery are better off today for it, and do not deserve compensation from others who had nothing to do with what happened. It's twisted, but it's a fact.

If it's fine to claim benefits for things that happened to ancestors, then what do I get for my great-great grandmother who was a slave, or for my Native American ancestors who were slaughtered? Nothing, because I don't deserve it, I wasn't the one who went through it. You were not the one who put them through it, and you should not have to pay me. Not that I qualify, because my skin is white. And when adding in that my great-great grandfather was a white guy, well, who's what isn't so black and white anymore.

If it's just by the color one appears, should black albinos be considered white people? Hell, why is it okay for blacks whose family lines in America go back to the Civil War to call themselves African Americans, but Theron is white, despite actually being born in South Africa?

If there are going to be race-specific scholarships, then it should be legal and fine to have one for whites as well. More opportunities are being created for minorities nowadays at the expense of the better qualified, regardless of race. Yes, there are scholarships for people regardless of race, and there are many for people only of a minority race. That right there is more opportunity for someone who is a minority.

Something else that pisses me off about AA is it's supposed to help those who come from underprivileged areas, yet a white girl at an inner-city school in New York City won't receive the same treatment as her black classmate...because she is white. Even when all else is the same.

There are millions of racists, but there are millions and millions more who just don't give a rat's ass about someone's skin color.

At some point AA will need to go in the opposite direction to give white people help instead. AA doesn't solve anything. If anything, it keeps at the forefront of our awareness that we are not seen as equals and keeps us on teams against each other.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

I understand your logic, but I stick by what I said. Obviously I'm not the only one, or AA wouldn't be a law anymore.

[mr-underachiever]

This thread also brings up another big issue with Affirmative Action. What if a minority actually WAS the most qualified person for the job? Would people respect that person or just think that they were just there to fill a quota?

Even if they truly busted their ass off to get where they are, there would be that stigma around the workplace that they didn't deserve to be there, and they just got there because of a handout.

[skyz]

I understand your logic, but I stick by what I said. Obviously I'm not the only one, or AA wouldn't be a law anymore.

the fact that AA is a law is not a valid argument for it being right correct or functionally useful

it is illegal to grow hemp even though it is an excellent source of many valuable products including replacement products for resources that are causing the depletion of rain forests

the fact that something is or is not a law does not validate the logic supporting the reasons for its legality or illegality

it is circular reasoning also know as begging the question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)

[rabidbadger]

This thread also brings up another big issue with Affirmative Action. What if a minority actually WAS the most qualified person for the job? Would people respect that person or just think that they were just there to fill a quota?

Even if they truly busted their ass off to get where they are, there would be that stigma around the workplace that they didn't deserve to be there, and they just got there because of a handout.

OOOOHhhh.
Never took that into consideration...

Nice twist to the conversation. Especially for a guy who calls himself mr. underachiever... :D

[Bohemian_Beauty]

the fact that AA is a law is not a valid argument for it being right correct or functionally useful

it is illegal to grow hemp even though it is an excellent source of many valuable products including replacement products for resources that are causing the depletion of rain forests

the fact that something is or is not a law does not validate the logic supporting the reasons for its legality or illegality

it is circular reasoning also know as begging the question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)


No, it isn't a valid argument, but being right or fucntionally useful is a perspective. Which is pretty much useless.

Spare me your critical thinking. I wasn't using it as an argument.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

This thread also brings up another big issue with Affirmative Action. What if a minority actually WAS the most qualified person for the job? Would people respect that person or just think that they were just there to fill a quota?

Even if they truly busted their ass off to get where they are, there would be that stigma around the workplace that they didn't deserve to be there, and they just got there because of a handout.
Great point. I know I personally never ask myself, 'I wonder if they got here because of AA'. NEVER.

I do know that some people of other ethnicities feel that AA is belittling them.

[ariastar]

I'm sorry. I'd rather see minorities get a chance, than be shunned because of their skin color. They've been given the shit end of the stick for hundreds of years.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

So it's okay to give whites the short end of the stick now based on shit that happened before any of us were born?

[ariastar]

Ideally, I'd like to see scholarships based on race done away with all together. You do however bring up an interesting idea.

Why is it ok for every other race to have pride in their race yet its racists for a white person to do the same? Why does the word "black power" cause people to think about community, strength, progress and power yet the word "white power" makes you think of racists hillbillies?

Don't get me wrong, having pride in your roots is great but why put a label on yourself? If its wrong for others to label you based on your background then why is it acceptable for you to do the same.

African American, Asian American, Latin American- why don't we cut the crap, and stop labeling each other. America is a melting pot. The term "American" covers blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians etc IMO. Why can't we simply refer to ourselves as Americans?

In high school my best friend and I were going to start a white pride group as our protest against how it was okay for every other race to have their groups, and our point was made when the school said no because it was discrimination to have a group for whites only despite there being a group for other races only. We wanted either equal rights to have our group or for all groups based on race to be disbanded. We lost, despite massive support.

[ariastar]

I understand your logic, but I stick by what I said. Obviously I'm not the only one, or AA wouldn't be a law anymore.

A lot of laws make no sense, and hinder more than help. Just because the law says sodomy is wrong in many areas, and gay marriage is not okay in most places, does that make those laws right just because that's the law?

It's harder to undo laws like AA than to get them in place. They've fallen from favor, yet the steps necessary to abolish it are too extensive of an undertaking for those in a position to try. Plus minorities as a whole take up the majority of this country. Politicians are going to pander to the majority.

[skyz]

Spare me your critical thinking..

:Dwhy should you be spared everyone else has had to put up with it :D

[ariastar]

This thread also brings up another big issue with Affirmative Action. What if a minority actually WAS the most qualified person for the job? Would people respect that person or just think that they were just there to fill a quota?

Even if they truly busted their ass off to get where they are, there would be that stigma around the workplace that they didn't deserve to be there, and they just got there because of a handout.

If a minority is most qualified and busted his ass, then his achievements will be overshadowed by his skin color. AA may gain minorities jobs, but it's coming also at the cost of respect for those who deserve those jobs.

[ariastar]

Great point. I know I personally never ask myself, 'I wonder if they got here because of AA'. NEVER.

I do know that some people of other ethnicities feel that AA is belittling them.

If it belittles minorities, costs the hard workers respect, casts a shadow of doubt over abilities of minorities, results in best-qualified candidates being turned down to fill quotas, pits race against race...is there really enough of a pay-off to make AA (aka reverse discrimination) worth it, or is it actually just fueling ongoing discrimination?

[Bohemian_Beauty]

So it's okay to give whites the short end of the stick now based on shit that happened before any of us were born?

I don't see white people getting the short end of the stick at all. 80% of the hispanics in my town live in the poor part of town. When I travel to the bad parts of LA, I see minorities.

At least 70% if not more of my neighborhood is white. I live in an upper middleclass area.

Every day I talk about social justice and politics with people. Every day I read forums, news articles, blogs, chat rooms, where I read and hear nothing but racist comments.

I'm sorry. I still see minorities paying for how we treated them 40+ years ago.

[rabidbadger]

If it belittles minorities, costs the hard workers respect, casts a shadow of doubt over abilities of minorities, results in best-qualified candidates being turned down to fill quotas, pits race against race...is there really enough of a pay-off to make AA (aka reverse discrimination) worth it, or is it actually just fueling ongoing discrimination?

wow. this succinct little paragraph is quite possibly gonna change my mind... hmmm.... gonna have to think about it a little more.

[skyz]

pits race against race

that is the rotten at the core of AA

[ariastar]

I don't see white people getting the short end of the stick at all. 80% of the hispanics in my town live in the poor part of town. When I travel to the bad parts of LA, I see minorities.

At least 70% if not more of my neighborhood is white. I live in an upper middleclass area.

Every day I talk about social justice and politics with people. Every day I read forums, news articles, blogs, chat rooms, where I read and hear nothing but racist comments.

I'm sorry. I still see minorities paying for how we treated them 40+ years ago.

"We" did nothing 40+ years ago. "We" weren't even born. Our parents who were were likely to still be children.

There is a lot of biracialism among my relatives. Many of them identify with races other than white. I am one of the few who actually looks white. Most of the rest don't. Something I observed over my life was those who identified with non-white were more in the mindset that it's okay to sit back and collect welfare since they would only get jobs with a leg up anyway. Those who look white knew they weren't going to be viewed in the same delicate-because-of-minority-color way.

What we're basically telling minorities is that they can only get ahead if we give them special treatment, and that mindset of it being okay to collect tax money because of how they perceive themselves as having been treated is damaging to all of us. When we phrase is as what "we" did to "them" rather than what "some of our ancestors" did to "some of their ancestors" (or, in some cases, "what some of my ancestors did to other of my ancestors" or their/their), then you and I and others who are considered white are seen as the perpetrators of crime and minorities are seen as personal victims, when this is not the case.

Why should a minority value hard work if they're told they can get ahead by special treatment? Why should they try if it's acceptable for them to collect welfare because of something that happened before any of us were alive?

[tokenuser]

I'm sorry. I still see minorities paying for how we treated them 40+ years ago.What you are talking about is a need for generational change. You need kids being brought up in an egalitarian environment. Thats not my generation (I am a gen X, my parents are baby boomers). It wont be my children (but they will be closer), it will be their children, or their childrens children.

I don't believe that we should be shades of grey, our various ethnic histories should never be forgotten, but as each generation grows up, greater levels of tolerance are established in the general community. There will always be "racial fundamentalists" that beleive that they are the supreme race, or that they miss out on opportunities because they are a minority, but I hope that those attitudes will disappear over the next couple of generations.

[ariastar]

that is the rotten at the core of AA

What was once a needed action to require allowing minorities to integrate is now nothing more than an action that requires people to outright discriminate based on skin color.

Hell, even the ballet world has done a far better job moving away from white preference and into focusing on individual ability, and that's without laws in place.

[ariastar]

What you are talking about is a need for generational change. You need kids being brought up in an egalitarian environment. Thats not my generation (I am a gen X, my parents are baby boomers). It wont be my children (but they will be closer), it will be their children, or their childrens children.

I don't believe that we should be shades of grey, our various ethnic histories should never be forgotten, but as each generation grows up, greater levels of tolerance are established in the general community. There will always be "racial fundamentalists" that beleive that they are the supreme race, or that they miss out on opportunities because they are a minority, but I hope that those attitudes will disappear over the next couple of generations.

And that starts with not making excuses about why Group X deserves special treatment but rather focusing on individual achievements and not making a big deal out of race. Kids learn by their parents' behavior. If Mom and Dad fuss about it, the kids will too. If Mom and Dad treat everyone the same, the kids will too.

[esophagus]

I've started posting about five lengthy posts. I keep erasing them knowing I'm just fueling the fire. Jesus.

[ariastar]

I've started posting about five lengthy posts. I keep erasing them knowing I'm just fueling the fire. Jesus.

Go ahead and fuel. So far there've been no personal insults, which is good.

[rabidbadger]

yeah, this thread has been thoughtful and civil... keep it that way and post like mad. Just don't be mad... haha

[ariastar]

I don't see white people getting the short end of the stick at all. 80% of the hispanics in my town live in the poor part of town. When I travel to the bad parts of LA, I see minorities.

BTW, this isn't due to race as much as it does immigration status. I firmly believe that those who want to work should be legally given the chance. But as long as they are illegal, getting high-paying jobs will be difficult, if not bordering on impossible. You are down near the border. Come up this way and you may be shocked to find that most of those living in the lower class are white. Very few Indians, Mexicans, Asians, etc., live below the poverty line. The vast majority of poor people are white. How about we show some favoritism to the white man up here if we're going to base the need for AA on which group is most likely to be poor in any given area.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

When I'm passionate about something like this, and people upset me with their opinions, I have a hard time remaining civil. I respect some of you enough to just bite my tongue, despite how I feel.

So, with that. Enjoy your debate. :)

[ariastar]

When I'm passionate about something like this, and people upset me with their opinions, I have a hard time remaining civil. I respect some of you enough to just bite my tongue, despite how I feel.

So, with that. Enjoy your debate. :)

If you're willing to pay the salaries lost to AA and to fund educations of those who lost out because of AA, then by all means, please do so. :)

fwiw, I could have used the Native American in me to go to college for free. I have enough of it in me. But I wasn't the one who suffered at the hands of anyone alive. Since I otherwise couldn't afford college, I didn't go. When I can I take a class or two and will probably never have a degree, but the government is not responsible to me in away it's not responsible to you just because I have ancestors who are Native Americans. I wasn't going to pull that card out to claim an undeserved privilege at the expense of people who did nothing wrong.

[skyz]

What was once a needed action to require allowing minorities to integrate is now nothing more than an action that requires people to outright discriminate based on skin color.

Hell, even the ballet world has done a far better job moving away from white preference and into focusing on individual ability, and that's without laws in place.

http://www.danser-en-france.com/repertoire/agon_fichiers/image005.jpg

1957 diana adams and arthur mitchell in balanchine/stravinsky agon (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.danser-en-france.com/repertoire/agon_fichiers/image005.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.danser-en-france.com/repertoire/agon.htm&h=361&w=300&sz=8&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=9KSVTl17NbcIJM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddiana%2Badams%2Band%2Barthur%2Bmitche ll%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GFRG%26sa%3DN)

[skyz]

I respect some of you

'some of you'

that is the essence of discrimination right there

even those passionately against discrimination often practice discrimination unaware of what they are doing

it is insidious

[rabidbadger]

http://www.danser-en-france.com/repertoire/agon_fichiers/image005.jpg

1957 diana adams and arthur mitchel in balanchine/stravinsky agon (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.danser-en-france.com/repertoire/agon_fichiers/image005.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.danser-en-france.com/repertoire/agon.htm&h=361&w=300&sz=8&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=9KSVTl17NbcIJM:&tbnh=121&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddiana%2Badams%2Band%2Barthur%2Bmitche ll%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GFRG%26sa%3DN)

cool. that musta pissed offa bunch of folks back then, but hell, Sidney Portier and Harry Belafonte were huge back then. so maybe not

[skyz]

cool. that musta pissed offa bunch of folks back then, but hell, Sidney Portier and Harry Belafonte were huge back then. so maybe not

oh it did upset people but this is art - art makes its own rules

aren't they beautiful together (it is a great ballet i have seen it many times but of course not with those two dancers)

[tokenuser]

oh it did upset people but this is art - art makes its own ruleshttp://media.funlol.com/content/img/storm-trooper-ballet.jpg

Art truly is a way to bring people together... unifiying both the light and the dark sides of the empire under a single orchesteral strain.

[rabidbadger]

http://media.funlol.com/content/img/storm-trooper-ballet.jpg

Art truly is a way to bring people together... unifiying both the light and the dark sides of the empire under a single orchesteral strain.

I am so turned on right now...

[Bohemian_Beauty]

'some of you'

that is the essence of discrimination right there

even those passionately against discrimination often practice discrimination unaware of what they are doing

it is insidious
Yes. Respect is earned. You don't earn it simply by breathing. I only know a few people on this forum. After talking to them on, and off the forums, I found respect for them.

Not respecting someone I don't know is not discrimination at all. I suggest you choose your words more carefully next time you are talking about someone's character.

[phatlip12]

Yes. Respect is earned. You don't earn it simply by breathing. I only know a few people on this forum. After talking to them on, and off the forums, I found respect for them.

Not respecting someone I don't know is not discrimination at all. I suggest you choose your words more carefully next time you are talking about someone's character.

I disagree. I think you should respect a person unless they give you a reason not to. Following your logic, you don't respect people you don't know and encounter every day (example- me if you came into where I worked and I was your waiter).

*BTW, my opinion isn't a reflection of how I view your character. I just disagree with you, thats all. :)

ANYWAYS....

About that affirmative action...

[skyz]

Yes. Respect is earned. You don't earn it simply by breathing. I only know a few people on this forum. After talking to them on, and off the forums, I found respect for them.

Not respecting someone I don't know is not discrimination at all. I suggest you choose your words more carefully next time you are talking about someone's character.

if you knew me as many here do you would know that i am a philosopher

nothing i say is ever personal unless it is an endearment i am all about ideas

and as a buddhist i have the opposite perspective

i must honor and serve all sentient beings

besides that is how i was brought up to respect everyone equally whether they be bill gates or a homeless person on the street

in my eyes all life is sacred

may i suggest you not presume to know other people's minds

1 a: the act of discriminating b: the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently

discrimination merriam webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrimination)

[md2389]

Personally, I feel that AA is nothing but a joke these days. Its 2008, not 1968. If someone can't get a job based on their skills, then they don't have what it takes. Its that simple. I should not be punished for something that happened forty years ago, and neither should anyone else. No offense, but SOMEONE has to be there to dig the ditches, work in the fast food industry. There are people that just don't have the mental capacity (and I'm not being specific here), whether it be because they didn't have sufficient education, or mental diability. Why should I not get a job, just to give someone that doesn't even meet the qualifications a better shot than I should have?

AA may have been a necessity forty ears ago, but it sure as hell isn't now. These days its nothing short of discrimination. Jobs should be given to those that have what it takes, period.

[autodas]

Affirmative Action was not even needed during the sixties. No racist doctrine that discriminates against anyone should be passed. Like so many egalitarian polices used to garner votes, it has the opposite of the intended effect.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

I suppose I can agree that AA does more harm than good. I guess I'll just try to do my part by raising awareness against racism, prejudice and bigotry.

[ariastar]

cool. that musta pissed offa bunch of folks back then...

I read that and then had to look at the picture again to see what you meant, and only then did I realize the man is black.

[ariastar]

Personally, I feel that AA is nothing but a joke these days. Its 2008, not 1968. If someone can't get a job based on their skills, then they don't have what it takes.

Big businesses are more interested in how much money they can make than in keeping all their employees white.

[ariastar]

I suppose I can agree that AA does more harm than good. I guess I'll just try to do my part by raising awareness against racism, prejudice and bigotry.


There are other ways to raise awareness than to support an action that reverse discriminates. The best thing that can be done to erase it is to do whatever is possible to not draw attention to it. Yes, there's history, but we can't keep going forward by looking back and keeping to teams.

[tokenuser]

I read that and then had to look at the picture again to see what you meant, and only then did I realize the man is black.
And only then did you realise that the woman wasn't ...


(j/k)

[ariastar]

And only then did you realise that the woman wasn't ...


(j/k)

I actually went back to double-check before seeing the j/k.

[phatlip12]

I feel like progress has been made but we need to re-think how we're going about it. I think getting rid of AA is ONE thing. I really think we need to stop all of this labeling though. I feel like my generation grew up around too much political correctness.

There seemed to be a lot of focus in <insert race> American this and <insert race> American that. I think we need to stop this sort of labeling though. I think kids born today shouldn't know this sort of labeling exists. Of course they're bound to hear it somewhere but if its not so in your face I think progress can be made. Perhaps if we can stop labeling each other todays youth wont view one another as "Billy=Black=African American=Different" but "Billy=Billy".

[tokenuser]

I feel like progress has been made but we need to re-think how we're going about it. I think getting rid of AA is ONE thing. I really think we need to stop all of this labeling though. I feel like my generation grew up around too much political correctness. Says the white upper middle class male from the 'burbs :)

[phatlip12]

Says the white upper middle class male from the 'burbs :)

Actually, I lived in Baltimore in a pretty shit neighborhood throughout all of elementary school. I was actually a minority in both my school and neighborhood. Parents decided to move to the burbs before I stared middle school because the school system was pretty shitty. That and they doubted I would have made it out of that particular middle school alive. ;)

My best friend was an Albanian boy that lived upstairs from me in our apartment. Him and his family moved over here in the late 90's during the whole Kosovo/Yugoslavia turmoil. I think that was the first time my little bubble was burst and I learned life wasn't so "perfect" outside the US.

[ariastar]

I feel like progress has been made but we need to re-think how we're going about it. I think getting rid of AA is ONE thing. I really think we need to stop all of this labeling though. I feel like my generation grew up around too much political correctness.

There seemed to be a lot of focus in <insert race> American this and <insert race> American that. I think we need to stop this sort of labeling though. I think kids born today shouldn't know this sort of labeling exists. Of course they're bound to hear it somewhere but if its not so in your face I think progress can be made. Perhaps if we can stop labeling each other todays youth wont view one another as "Billy=Black=African American=Different" but "Billy=Billy".

Yeah, I get tired of it too. Just drop anything before and after "American." Adding anything else is like an attempt to be set apart from or above others.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

...I feel like my generation grew up around too much political correctness.Yes, I agree. America's youth has definitely gone through a wussification process with the whold PC movement. Don't raise your hand in class anymore, it makes peopel who don't know the answer feel bad. Don't use the word black. Don't do this, don't do that.

Wait, where has this been said before? :rolleyes:

AA is a joke. And it's only OK because it deals with black people.

What would happen if there was a white history month. A white college fund. 3 whites beat up a black kid.

It's no longer OK to be proud to be white. That makes you racist.

[skyz]

Yeah, I get tired of it too. Just drop anything before and after "American." Adding anything else is like an attempt to be set apart from or above others.


in miami we have the subset of 'cuban americans'

they've been here going back 60 years so when are people just american :confused:

i thought that was the whole point of being an 'american'

[masherscf]

Jeez, my great-great-great-great grandfather, James Duane, didn't abstain from the voting in 1776 when the second continental congress ratified the Declaration of Independence so that all these newbies could demand equal treatment. (j/k)

[skyz]

Jeez, my great-great-great-great grandfather, James Duane, didn't abstain from the voting in 1776 when the second continental congress ratified the Declaration of Independence so that all these newbies could demand equal treatment. (j/k)

playing the mayflower card :D

[masherscf]

playing the mayflower card :D

Actually, he wasn't on the Mayflower. His father was in an officer in the British Navy before living the New York.

[skyz]

Actually, he wasn't on the Mayflower. His father was in an officer in the British Navy before living the New York.

sounds like a 'new america' jane austin type hero to me

[masherscf]

sounds like a 'new america' jane austin type hero to me

Actually, the earliest immigrant that I'm related to was a man named named Robert Livingston. He immigrated in 1673. I don't talk about it much because George Bush is also descended from him. Bush and I are cousins... egads.

[skyz]

Actually, the earliest immigrant that I'm related to was a man named named Robert Livingston. He immigrated in 1673. I don't talk about it much because George Bush is also descended from him. Bush and I are cousins... egads.

how embarrassing j/k rofolo

[logant]

The biggest problem with AA is the fact that it's basically a catch-22. Yes it allows minorities to find jobs, however it also teaches them that they don't need to work hard in order to get their jobs. Therefore they probably aren't good workers and is probably the reason why people don't like to hire them in the first place.

[skyz]

The biggest problem with AA is the fact that it's basically a catch-22. Yes it allows minorities to find jobs, however it also teaches them that they don't need to work hard in order to get their jobs. Therefore they probably aren't good workers and is probably the reason why people don't like to hire them in the first place.

it also encourages the mindset of 'not good enough' on my own merits

no one does well with that mindset

[secret-steve-crumbles]

...however it also teaches them that they don't need to work hard in order to get their jobs.Ha, I think the US government does a good enough job teaching the citizens they don't need to work hard for anything.

Remember, depend on the government, not yourself.

[mr-underachiever]

AA is a joke. And it's only OK because it deals with black people.

No, it doesn't. The biggest beneficiaries of AA are white women.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

No, it doesn't. The biggest beneficiaries of AA are white women.
You honestly believe that if affirmative action were to go away, white women would be the first to scream?

[ariastar]

in miami we have the subset of 'cuban americans'

they've been here going back 60 years so when are people just american :confused:

i thought that was the whole point of being an 'american'

Worse, what about blacks whose ancestors came here in the 1700's and 1800's? When are they just American rather than African American? The Mexicans whose family lines go back to this land before it was even America - why still Mexican American or just Hispanic? So rarely do you hear even Hispanic American.

If you want to be an American, drop the rest of it already or quit bitching that you're not being treated like an American.

[ariastar]

Actually, the earliest immigrant that I'm related to was a man named named Robert Livingston. He immigrated in 1673. I don't talk about it much because George Bush is also descended from him. Bush and I are cousins... egads.

Somehow we're all related. Try dating someone you know you have a specific common ancestor with. My ex, John, and I are both descended from Pocahontas.

[ariastar]

No, it doesn't. The biggest beneficiaries of AA are white women.

Hmmm, I'm still waiting then to reap the benefits of being a white woman. I'm in the tech industry and know so many girls who want to break in, but know the chance is slim. So when does AA begin to work for us? Huh? Nope, it doesn't, we just have to work harder and get to take greater pride in our accomplishments because we worked harder. Eventually our work will be seen as equal to men's work, and not because of AA, but because we proved ourselves and earned it.

[ariastar]

The biggest problem with AA is the fact that it's basically a catch-22. Yes it allows minorities to find jobs, however it also teaches them that they don't need to work hard in order to get their jobs. Therefore they probably aren't good workers and is probably the reason why people don't like to hire them in the first place.

And those who do earn it are going to have that shadow over them. Did they earn it or were they given extra help?

[ariastar]

No, it doesn't. The biggest beneficiaries of AA are white women.

And also, all white women ask for is equal pay for the same job. If I do the same work as my cubemate and our work is on par, then I want the same pay (which I do receive, though I admit he should be paid more because he actually does do better work). We aren't asking for a leg up getting jobs to begin with, just equal pay. For minorities, AA helps them get the jobs and get into schools to begin with.

There are some industries where men are paid less, like nursing. I've actually like every male nurse I've ever had, but a lot of the women were mean. Still, men aren't paid equally.

[ariastar]

Yes, I agree. America's youth has definitely gone through a wussification process with the whold PC movement. Don't raise your hand in class anymore, it makes peopel who don't know the answer feel bad. Don't use the word black. Don't do this, don't do that.

Wait, where has this been said before? :rolleyes:

AA is a joke. And it's only OK because it deals with black people.

What would happen if there was a white history month. A white college fund. 3 whites beat up a black kid.

It's no longer OK to be proud to be white. That makes you racist.

If you are proud of being white, you're a racist. If you're proud of being American, and not something-American, then you are a bigot or discriminating. American IS a culture, but one we're supposed to be ashamed of as we're supposed to accommodate every other culture before our own. Hell, we're not even supposed to acknowledge having a culture. To be American is not allowed to be a cultural identity. No wonder Americans feel so sense of cohesion or community. We're not supposed to. Is THAT becoming our culture?

[secret-steve-crumbles]

If you are proud of being white, you're a racist. If you're proud of being American, and not something-American, then you are a bigot or discriminating. American IS a culture, but one we're supposed to be ashamed of as we're supposed to accommodate every other culture before our own. Hell, we're not even supposed to acknowledge having a culture. To be American is not allowed to be a cultural identity. No wonder Americans feel so sense of cohesion or community. We're not supposed to. Is THAT becoming our culture?
I think you and I are both saying the same things, you're just arguing it differently.

[ariastar]

I think you and I are both saying the same things, you're just arguing it differently.

We are. I'm just giving an angered view.

[autodas]

And those who do earn it are going to have that shadow over them. Did they earn it or were they given extra help?

And people wonder why I hate socialism. Some people here would to if they learned the atrocities perpetrated by men who used others to do their work for them, but instead they choose to vote on whatever makes them feel good -- blinded by ignorance.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

What don't you like about Socialism?

[tokenuser]

And people wonder why I hate socialism. Some people here would to if they learned the atrocities perpetrated by men who used others to do their work for them, but instead they choose to vote on whatever makes them feel good -- blinded by ignorance.Why do you hate socialism? or more to the point what do you understand socialism to be?

The "blinded by ignorance" thing goes both ways.

[ariastar]

What don't you like about Socialism?

Aside from how it removes individual accountability and forces the workers to support the ones who won't work? Oh wait, that describes a large chunk of the welfare system.

If I work my ass off for something, it should be mine. No one else should have a claim to a piece of it, and it shouldn't be take away from me to split with everyone else. That would cause me to have no motivation to work anymore. An unmotivated society is a dead one.

[phatlip12]

Aside from how it removes individual accountability and forces the workers to support the ones who won't work? Oh wait, that describes a large chunk of the welfare system.

If I work my ass off for something, it should be mine. No one else should have a claim to a piece of it, and it shouldn't be take away from me to split with everyone else. That would cause me to have no motivation to work anymore. An unmotivated society is a dead one.

Wait, I'm confused. At one point didn't you say communism wasn't a bad idea or something?

[esophagus]

Hmmm, I'm still waiting then to reap the benefits of being a white woman. I'm in the tech industry and know so many girls who want to break in, but know the chance is slim. So when does AA begin to work for us? Huh? Nope, it doesn't, we just have to work harder and get to take greater pride in our accomplishments because we worked harder. Eventually our work will be seen as equal to men's work, and not because of AA, but because we proved ourselves and earned it.
There are black men and women who feel the same way as you do.

Just because there is no AA for women in your specific industry, or company, doesn't mean it doesn't exist anywhere.

[ariastar]

Wait, I'm confused. At one point didn't you say communism wasn't a bad idea or something?

It wouldn't be bad in theory among people who choose to participate. Forcing it on people in practice is a disaster.

[ariastar]

There are black men and women who feel the same way as you do.

Just because there is no AA for women in your specific industry, or company, doesn't mean it doesn't exist anywhere.

You're in Canada. What experience do you have with AA in America?

[md2389]

Somehow we're all related. Try dating someone you know you have a specific common ancestor with. My ex, John, and I are both descended from Pocahontas.

You think thats bad? I'm related to Jessie James and King George III. :p Thats right, I'm kin to a law breaker and a tyrant. :D

If you are proud of being white, you're a racist. If you're proud of being American, and not something-American, then you are a bigot or discriminating. American IS a culture, but one we're supposed to be ashamed of as we're supposed to accommodate every other culture before our own. Hell, we're not even supposed to acknowledge having a culture. To be American is not allowed to be a cultural identity. No wonder Americans feel so sense of cohesion or community. We're not supposed to. Is THAT becoming our culture?

And then theres the issue of our language. :p

[tokenuser]

You're in Canada. What experience do you have with AA in America?And why are you discriminating against Canadian opinion? America is not the only country with Affirmative Action legislation ...

[phatlip12]

It wouldn't be bad in theory among people who choose to participate. Forcing it on people in practice is a disaster.

The point I was trying to make is you're for communism but against socialism. Isn't that sort of like saying "I hate things with four wheels" and then saying "I love cars!!"?

[esophagus]

You're in Canada. What experience do you have with AA in America?
Canada has AA too.

Anyways, I wasn't saying you were wrong, nor am I saying he was wrong. Just saying you shouldn't dismiss women being beneficiaries of AA just because you aren't. It's still more than possible.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

Aside from how it removes individual accountability and forces the workers to support the ones who won't work? Oh wait, that describes a large chunk of the welfare system.

If I work my ass off for something, it should be mine. No one else should have a claim to a piece of it, and it shouldn't be take away from me to split with everyone else. That would cause me to have no motivation to work anymore. An unmotivated society is a dead one.

How do you feel about Universal Healthcare?

[tehcris]

It wouldn't be bad in theory among people who choose to participate. Forcing it on people in practice is a disaster.

I agree on papper its a great concept..... but in the real world i dont think so....lol

[Bohemian_Beauty]

Canada has AA too.

Anyways, I wasn't saying you were wrong, nor am I saying he was wrong. Just saying you shouldn't dismiss women being beneficiaries of AA just because you aren't. It's still more than possible.

Aye. It is beneficiary for women. At least it's supposed to. I've never had a problem getting a job anywhere, or getting in to school.

[ariastar]

And why are you discriminating against Canadian opinion? America is not the only country with Affirmative Action legislation ...

How one country runs their version will be different than how another country runs it. I can't comment on the Canadian version based on what I know about American AA because it won't necessarily apply.

[ariastar]

The point I was trying to make is you're for communism but against socialism. Isn't that sort of like saying "I hate things with four wheels" and then saying "I love cars!!"?

If you can choose to be part of a community that runs socially, you can also leave if people stay to become lazy and not contribute. Likewise, if you don't contribute, others may leave and you're SOL on being supported, so you'd better do your part.

In a land forced to participate, more people will not contribute because they have no reason to, workers will be forced to support them.

[skyz]

How do you feel about Universal Healthcare?

you did not ask me but i would like to answer

i think we should have universal healthcare

i know that working out the logistics may be difficult and lead to controversy

however it is inhumane to have people committing suicide because they cannot afford medical intervention to save their savable lives or dying alone in pain and misery

we can't have little children breaking an arm and not getting it fixed and claim to be a great even a good country

as for the costs i think we are actually paying more in costs due to lack of wellness care preventative care and early intervention care

[ariastar]

How do you feel about Universal Healthcare?

Working families are already paying for health care coverage, only it's not their own. What I pay in Medicare taxes each month is more than enough to buy private coverage for both me and Cody. Recipients of welfare aren't paying into the system they're benefiting from. Workers are paying into a system they receive no benefit from, paying money they should instead be allowed to spend on their own health care.

So I favor universal as those who would be covered who aren't already are those people who work to pay taxes so others can be covered, but don't make enough to pay for their own as well.

Better option? Scrap the part of taxes that goes toward health coverage for people who won't work and let the worker keep that money to put toward his/her own family's coverage. Since that's less likely to happen, and that worker deserves the coverage he/she is paying for for others, the other option is universal.

That so many people work to pay taxes so others can have health coverage that the worker can't afford privately is fucked up.

[ariastar]

i know that working out the logistics may be difficult and lead to controversy

Those who would fund this and benefit are those workers already paying the taxes so non-workers can see doctors.


however it is inhumane to have people committing suicide because they cannot afford medical intervention to save their savable lives or dying alone in pain and misery

Many people who commit suicide are workers who can't take it anymore.


we can't have little children breaking an arm and not getting it fixed and claim to be a great even a good country

Working families are the ones with the children least likely to have coverage because their parents can't afford it due to paying for it for other people.


as for the costs i think we are actually paying more in costs due to lack of wellness care preventative care and early intervention care

Emergency costs are indeed far more expensive. By the time it's severe enough to go to an ER where they can't turn you away (though I found myself turned away twice earlier this year for lack of coverage, which isn't legal, but happens anyway), then what may have started out as something easy to remedy is now far more serious, perhaps requiring surgery and hospitalization.

[tokenuser]

Working families are already paying for health care coverage, only it's not their own. What I pay in Medicare taxes each month is more than enough to buy private coverage for both me and Cody. Recipients of welfare aren't paying into the system they're benefiting from. Workers are paying into a system they receive no benefit from, paying money they should instead be allowed to spend on their own health care. So, what if that Medicare tax went to serices that you - as a tax payer - got benefit from instead of the the welfare recipients you claim are clogging the system? What if, instead of you paying Medicare tax and private health insurance you paid into one system that gave you coverage similar to what you get through a PPO? That is universal healthcare. Sure the "unwashed welfare state masses" can have access as well, but you know something? You are not likely to go to areas where "those" people live anyway, so its not like are going to be sharing a waiting room with them, or catch cooties from thier dirty children.

Want to know something else? You can visit a doctor when you feel sick. Not just a doctor that is in your plan, but any doctor close by. Also, if you feel you have the financial resources to jump the queue, or get a private room, then those options are still available as health insurance supplements.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

So, what if that Medicare tax went to serices that you - as a tax payer - got benefit from instead of the the welfare recipients you claim are clogging the system? What if, instead of you paying Medicare tax and private health insurance you paid into one system that gave you coverage similar to what you get through a PPO? That is universal healthcare. Sure the "unwashed welfare state masses" can have access as well, but you know something? You are not likely to go to areas where "those" people live anyway, so its not like are going to be sharing a waiting room with them, or catch cooties from thier dirty children.

Want to know something else? You can visit a doctor when you feel sick. Not just a doctor that is in your plan, but any doctor close by. Also, if you feel you have the financial resources to jump the queue, or get a private room, then those options are still available as health insurance supplements.

You hit the nail on the head, Token.

That's precisely how it works in almost all the other countries with universal health care, save maybe Japan. I'm not to up to date on how their health care system works.

[Bohemian_Beauty]

you did not ask me but i would like to answer

i think we should have universal healthcare

i know that working out the logistics may be difficult and lead to controversy

however it is inhumane to have people committing suicide because they cannot afford medical intervention to save their savable lives or dying alone in pain and misery

we can't have little children breaking an arm and not getting it fixed and claim to be a great even a good country

as for the costs i think we are actually paying more in costs due to lack of wellness care preventative care and early intervention care

It was a question for everybody. :)

Speaking of preventative. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080428175345.htm

I hope this works out!

[esophagus]

i think we should have universal healthcareCanada's government pays around 70% of our health care. In fact, in Alberta next year they are removing our premiums.

Becuase of this, a woman my mother knows has a Gallstone and can't get in for proper testing until the end of May (this happened a couple of weeks ago).

It's certainly the lesser of two evils, but not everything works out.

[ariastar]

So, what if that Medicare tax went to serices that you - as a tax payer - got benefit from instead of the the welfare recipients you claim are clogging the system? What if, instead of you paying Medicare tax and private health insurance you paid into one system that gave you coverage similar to what you get through a PPO? That is universal healthcare. Sure the "unwashed welfare state masses" can have access as well, but you know something? You are not likely to go to areas where "those" people live anyway, so its not like are going to be sharing a waiting room with them, or catch cooties from thier dirty children.

Want to know something else? You can visit a doctor when you feel sick. Not just a doctor that is in your plan, but any doctor close by. Also, if you feel you have the financial resources to jump the queue, or get a private room, then those options are still available as health insurance supplements.

You know, what I would favor MOST is NOT having a system at all and letting each person keep his or her own money to put toward his or her own health care. But since that's not going to happen, then I would go for universal second. There's a big fucking problem when working families are paying taxes so welfare recipients can have health care that they themselves can't afford. When working people can't afford their own medical care, and so have to go without, why the fuck should they have to pay for people who don't work to see doctors? Since getting rid of Medicaid or lowering the number of people who qualify (leaving kids and the disabled on it, kicking able-bodied people who don't work) isn't going to happen, the only options are to let the workers go without or to cover them as well.

[ariastar]

Canada's government pays around 70% of our health care. In fact, in Alberta next year they are removing our premiums.

Becuase of this, a woman my mother knows has a Gallstone and can't get in for proper testing until the end of May (this happened a couple of weeks ago).

It's certainly the lesser of two evils, but not everything works out.

At least that woman can get in for testing. Here, if you don't have coverage and don't have thousands sitting around to pay up front, you get nothing at all until it's an emergency situation and your chance of recovery is less.

[skyz]

Canada's government pays around 70% of our health care. In fact, in Alberta next year they are removing our premiums.

Becuase of this, a woman my mother knows has a Gallstone and can't get in for proper testing until the end of May (this happened a couple of weeks ago).

It's certainly the lesser of two evils, but not everything works out.

you can't achieve perfection but at least it lessens the desperation

those tests are expensive

i had a brain scan (i had some fainting spells)

my insurance paid but it cost a fortune

everything was fine it was my primary doctor that wanted the scan

[skyz]

[COLOR="Magenta"]Working families are the ones with the children least likely to have coverage because their parents can't afford it due to paying for it for other people.


that is so not good

so many things children need to develop well

all those vaccinations to prevent terrible preventable diseases

i'd be scared to have kids without insurance i would worry all the time