Red Belt

[rse2]

Am I the only person on the forum that saw Red Belt?
More than a worthy effort.
If you're into Jujitsu, as opposed to Judo, this is a very gritty and heartfelt David Mamet movie. Lots of character and subtly. You've really got to pay attention. My understanding is that Mamet is a practitioner of Brazilian Jujitsu and he kept it "real". No flying wires.

Some great lines eg. "I don't teach people to fight I teach them to prevail".

I cringed by how accurately it portrayed the professional fight game, show business and the people involved and how easily regular folks can get sucked in (some personal experience here). I won't spoil the plot with further description. Maybe later if their is interest.

I liked it.

[tsmith15]

I saw it. I liked it on the whole, except for the ending sequence. I loved most of the fighting though.

Edjiofor (spelling is wrong I'm sure) was also in Serenity (<3) which I just watched recently.

[stubadub]

I really enjoyed it up until the very end. I'm not sure what to think of the last minute or so.

[riverron]

Yeah I look at box office movie reports with my boss and this movie did nothing at the box office. Sorry man.

[scoobydiesel]

This opens friday in my area which means Indy is no gunna let anyone even notice it.

But i might see it next week.

[tink2112]

i took my mom to go see redbelt for mothers day and she enjoyed it. i thought i was good overall except the last 20 min or so got crazy, contrived, ridiculous? if it didnt try to wrap everything up so quickly it would have had all of me. still, i would recommend it.

[heyseuss]

Yeah I look at box office movie reports with my boss and this movie did nothing at the box office. Sorry man.

How is that relevant ?

[heyseuss]

Am I the only person on the forum that saw Red Belt?


As I said in the other thread you posted this -

I don't understand why you said, "jujitsu as opposed to judo", . . . ?? Why not, ".. as opposed to kungfu", or kickboxing or 'x' martial art ?

I've heard the movie isn't very good, but ok.

Mamet has been training jujitsu here in Hollywood under the Machado's for 5-6 years now. Alot of real fighters and jujitsu practioners were in that movie. I always liked Mamets films, but was shocked to learn he was a buff hulk-type bjj practioner. Even if the movie sucks ass sideways, I respect him for doing the film and the art/sport.

[rse2]

Judo is a "way". Sort of Jujitsu light, the same way that Kedo is Kenjitsu light. No insult to Judo or Kendo practitioners intended.
Neither Kendo nor Judo are meant to be practical martial arts. They have some practical applications but are meant more as a way of life. As in "the way of the sword" or "the way of the bow" or "the way of the cricket". They the "dos" therefore lend themselves more readily to "sport". This is discussed briefly in the film btw.

Jujitsu is what the fighting samurai learned and practiced to survive on the battlefield not in the dojo or arena. Why the military and police train in Jujitsu rather than Judo.

[poltah]

I don't think Judo is Ju-jitsu light. Real ju-jitsu is self defense, opposed to a sport. While Judo is a sport, with clear rules.

Somebody mentioned that the guy had trained ju-jitsu for 5 years, just wanted to point out that five years of training really isn't a lot in ju-jitsu, depending on the style and dojo of course.

[gonzooo]

Judo is a "way". Sort of Jujitsu light, the same way that Kedo is Kenjitsu light. No insult to Judo or Kendo practitioners intended.
Neither Kendo nor Judo are meant to be practical martial arts. They have some practical applications but are meant more as a way of life. As in "the way of the sword" or "the way of the bow" or "the way of the cricket". They the "dos" therefore lend themselves more readily to "sport". This is discussed briefly in the film btw.

Jujitsu is what the fighting samurai learned and practiced to survive on the battlefield not in the dojo or arena. Why the military and police train in Jujitsu rather than Judo.
Regardless of what you believe about judo or jujutsu I think you'll have a hard time practicing any of them in anything but a sport, if you mind going to jail or getting stabbed.

There are very few practical applications for martial arts nowadays, and where they are applicable I'd say you'd do well in learning something that has moved away farther from sports, like krav maga (though I have little respect for people who learn krav maga without any kind of need for it, when they could learn something that was more of a sport with more intricate systems).

The argument that something that has become an analogy for something much more brutal is inherently less worthy of practicing seems a bit silly, to be honest.

[gonzooo]

Somebody mentioned that the guy had trained ju-jitsu for 5 years, just wanted to point out that five years of training really isn't a lot in ju-jitsu, depending on the style and dojo of course.
Yes, and it also depends on the practicioner; B.J. Penn did more in 3 years than most people do ever in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, especially non-Brazilians (these different spellings of jujutsu are frustrating...).

[poltah]

Regardless of what you believe about judo or jujutsu I think you'll have a hard time practicing any of them in anything but a sport, if you mind going to jail or getting stabbed.

There are very few practical applications for martial arts nowadays, and where they are applicable I'd say you'd do well in learning something that has moved away farther from sports, like krav maga (though I have little respect for people who learn krav maga without any kind of need for it, when they could learn something that was more of a sport with more intricate systems).

The argument that something that has become an analogy for something much more brutal is inherently less worthy of practicing seems a bit silly, to be honest.

I couldn't disagree more. I've been practicing a modified version of Goshin Ju-jitsu focused 100% on street fighting. It's self defense, and it's very usable.

I practice ju-jitsu with the goal that if I ever have to use the actual combat part of it, I'll be walking away unharmed, and the other dude won't. But mind that the combat part is only one part of the system, there's a mindset to it, a prevention system that has helped me getting out of fights before they even started (and no, I didn't just run, which actually isn't a bad idea if you don't like fighting :) )

I don't like violence, or fighting. But I think I like it more than getting my ass kicked.

The reason for the different spellings by the way, is because of different translations of Japanese. In America it's mostly been known as Jiu-Jitsu, while in Europe it was translated into Ju-jitsu. And some other place into Ju-Jutsu. But it seems like the spelling "Ju-Jitsu" is slowly taking over.

[heyseuss]

Judo is a "way". Sort of Jujitsu light, the same way that Kedo is Kenjitsu light. No insult to Judo or Kendo practitioners intended.
Neither Kendo nor Judo are meant to be practical martial arts. They have some practical applications but are meant more as a way of life. As in "the way of the sword" or "the way of the bow" or "the way of the cricket". They the "dos" therefore lend themselves more readily to "sport". This is discussed briefly in the film btw.

Jujitsu is what the fighting samurai learned and practiced to survive on the battlefield not in the dojo or arena. Why the military and police train in Jujitsu rather than Judo.

Judo was based on jujitsu. It was coined, 'small mans jujitsu, because the little fella that invented it, used all the muscly powering technique of jujitsu, and reversed the energy and invented moves that create that inverse energy flow, so that the little man could play with the big boys. Judo is less defensive, but just as 'deadly', and just as pratical... in fact, Judo has FAR superior takedowns than jujitsu. I'd wager to say that Judo is pretty practical, when your attacker lands on his head or neck every time he approaches.


Neither Kendo nor Judo are meant to be practical martial arts. They have some practical applications but are meant more as a way of life.

OK, dumbest thing you said so far. All martial arts are ways of life, even if their name doesn't end in 'do'. Kendo is highly practical, just irrelevant in this day and age. Judo is highly practical self defense, jujitsu being better, brazilian jujitsu being even better.

I can't believe you tried to bolster the strenght of jujitsu by using the samurai reference. . . . that was the art they learnt for when they lost the sword (also aikido), now, what do you think their other art is, the one with the sword in the hand..... ya think they might have studied some KENDO ????

[heyseuss]

I don't think Judo is Ju-jitsu light. Real ju-jitsu is self defense, opposed to a sport. While Judo is a sport, with clear rules.

Somebody mentioned that the guy had trained ju-jitsu for 5 years, just wanted to point out that five years of training really isn't a lot in ju-jitsu, depending on the style and dojo of course.

Depends on who is being trained by whom. Type 'machado brothers' into a search engine. Judo is self defense first, then a sport, just like jujitsu.

[heyseuss]

I couldn't disagree more. I've been practicing a modified version of Goshin Ju-jitsu focused 100% on street fighting. It's self defense, and it's very usable.

OK, let's weigh it up. In your lifetime, the percentage of self defense jujitsu use, as opposed to percentage of sporting jujitsu use, will be heavily on the sporting side.

What Gonzoo meant, which I understood perfectly and is another remarkable example of how the guy that doesn't speak English is comunicating and expressing himself better than the average american....is, that all martial arts are a way of life... way, of . . . LIFE . . . . MARTIAL. Having to defend yourself daily and use a martial art to save your life, was a practical use of any chosen martial art, back when those situations were prevalent in day-to-day life. Nowadays, you don't need to know self defense that much, but it helps and it's a cool way of life. In the meantime, we can apply most martial art techniques, in sport.



While we're at it, give it up for Daido
FSE9u1p7TW4

[heyseuss]

Yes, and it also depends on the practicioner; B.J. Penn did more in 3 years than most people do ever in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, especially non-Brazilians (these different spellings of jujutsu are frustrating...).

Fastest american to get a bjj blackbelt ever. Then he took his black belt, threw it away, and put on a judo white belt and entered a competition of judo blackbelts, and beat them all.

Netflixers -

The History Of Judo
Choke
Rites Of Passage
Smashing Machine

[heyseuss]

I don't think Judo is Ju-jitsu light. Real ju-jitsu is self defense, opposed to a sport. While Judo is a sport, with clear rules.

Somebody mentioned that the guy had trained ju-jitsu for 5 years, just wanted to point out that five years of training really isn't a lot in ju-jitsu, depending on the style and dojo of course.

Ed O'Neill ( Al Bundy ) just got his blackbelt from Gracie Juijitsu, and he's been doing it for about 25 years.

[poltah]

OK, let's weigh it up. In your lifetime, the percentage of self defense jujitsu use, as opposed to percentage of sporting jujitsu use, will be heavily on the sporting side.



I'm not American either though, English is like my third language.

But anyway, Ju-jitsu is self defense. Then some people have taken that self defense system and made it into a sport, which is another kind of Ju-jitsu.

Of course there's a lot of people who do it for sport, and that's totally cool. It is however something entirely different that self defense based ju-jitsu. It's a sport, with rules, and it's basically the same as playing soccer, or baseball, or boxing, or whatever. You just look a little bit cooler ;)

[poltah]

Fastest american to get a bjj blackbelt ever. Then he took his black belt, threw it away, and put on a judo white belt and entered a competition of judo blackbelts, and beat them all.


Sounds like a jerk.

[stubadub]

Sounds like a jerk.

Sounds like a bad ass.

[heyseuss]

Sounds like a bad ass.

lUNgJPsUb1A

[rse2]

1. Nothing I said was dumb. I might be mistaken, I'm not dumb.
2. Aikido was named in 1943 (samurai are where?) the developer was born in 1883, (samurai are where?). http://www.aikidofaq.com/history/index.html
3. Judo, same deal, (samurai are where?): http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/6968/judo.htm
4. No the samurai never studied Kendo. They studied Kenjutsu and iai-jutsu. Archery:kyujutsu, the spear: yarijutsu etc... and others, detect a pattern?
It wasn't until much late in Japanese history (late 1800s) that these practical martial arts spawned the dos or ways. These were formalized, some would say civilized, forms with specific rules. As much about the traditions and philosophies as the physical skills. Just one example: Kendo now limits the strikes and target areas. Fun, good exercise, good for the soul but NOT entirely practical. You may derive some practical skills but in a real fight against a Kenjutsu practitioner you'd likely be toast. The same way the modern fencing only vaugely resembles real combat with western small swords, sabers or rapiers. Modern epee is the closest but it is still governed by rules that no one in an actual fight would follow.
(hence the attempted revival of "classical" fencing which more closely follows actual sword fighting training)
I take offense at your tone sir ... pistols at dawn under the oak tree or would you prefer the sword?

[drghoo]

Heyseuss, how did I know you would be all over this! Thanks for always bringing the knowledge & great points. And yes RSE nothing you said was dumb. As much as I would like to check out Redbelt, I'll probably have to wait for DVD(too many other movies this summer & not a lot of dough)!

[optimus187prime]

Yeah waiting for the DVD on RedBelt. Cant wait to hear Randy drop some profanity :D.

BJJ is definitely a good time, nothing like choking someone knowing you are in complete control of a (physically) larger person. Although now that MMA has taken off it is way too expensive for my tiny wallet.

As far as street effectivness I would say MMA fighters use all different styles for a reason. Just remember exhaust all other options before choosing to fight.

[optimus187prime]

lUNgJPsUb1A

BTW funny you guys should mention BJ he is fighting tomorrow to retain the UFC lightweight title against Sean Sherk. Should be a war. I would recommend anyone who has the smallest intrest in martial arts (Karate, Kung Fu, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing) to get (or watch;)) the event as there should be some really competitive fights. After seeing the amazing feats of human potential those guys pull off, movie fight choreography is just lacking the realism and excitment.

[gonzooo]

BTW funny you guys should mention BJ he is fighting tomorrow to retain the UFC lightweight title against Sean Sherk. Should be a war. I would recommend anyone who has the smallest intrest in martial arts (Karate, Kung Fu, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing) to get (or watch;)) the event as there should be some really competitive fights. After seeing the amazing feats of human potential those guys pull off, movie fight choreography is just lacking the realism and excitment.
I find it hard to believe anyone who knows who B.J. Penn is would have missed there was an event coming up. :p

[optimus187prime]

I find it hard to believe anyone who knows who B.J. Penn is would have missed there was an event coming up. :p

Thats why I pre-qualified it by stating anyone who has any interest in those sports should tune in to a "prodigy" at work. Im just advising those who may just casually caught TUF and was interested in seeing a future hall of famer in the biggest fight of his career.

[gonzooo]

Thats why I pre-qualified it by stating anyone who has any interest in those sports should tune in to a "prodigy" at work. Im just advising those who may just casually caught TUF and was interested in seeing a future hall of famer in the biggest fight of his career.
Hmm, dunno about biggest fight of his career, to be honest. Both his belt fights against Hughes are by far more high profile and his match against GSP should be considered to be too. Considering Penn's match list is basically a who's who of solid fighters (Renzo Gracie, Caol Uno, Takanori Gomi and Lyoto Machida just to name a few), most of them still viable in the game, a fight against a (cheating) lay 'n' pray wrestler isn't that big of a deal.

[heyseuss]

1. Nothing I said was dumb. I might be mistaken, I'm not dumb.

I didn't say -YOU- were dumb, I just pointed out the dumbest thing you said. The first thing you said this post, was this posts dumbest thing.


2. Aikido was named in 1943 (samurai are where?) the developer was born in 1883, (samurai are where?).

Samurai are resting, after having done all that aikido and iaido and jujitsu and judo, during their ways of ken. Just because it wasn't named until 1943 doesn't mean ppl weren't doing it before then. Aikido is combat tai-chi, the throws of which, also come from jujitsu. Before it was a 'hot-plate-carl', it was just, "carl, that dirty mofo from pittsburgh".

3. Judo, same deal, (samurai are where?):

I don't know, why are you asking, what do they have to do with each other ?


4. No the samurai never studied Kendo. They studied Kenjutsu and others, detect a pattern?

Yes, they are both sword arts, and one was inspired by the other. Kendo is specific to the sword, kenjutsu includes kendo as well as unarmed.


I take offense at your tone sir ... pistols at dawn under the oak tree or would you prefer the sword?

Hands, knees, elbows, feet.

[heyseuss]

Heyseuss, how did I know you would be all over this! Thanks for always bringing the knowledge & great points. And yes RSE nothing you said was dumb. As much as I would like to check out Redbelt, I'll probably have to wait for DVD(too many other movies this summer & not a lot of dough)!


Hey man hows WB ? I fooled around with a hot little WB driver when she was making late night dailies delivereis to me at Ascent. She said she loved being a WB driver, and made $30-$50/hr.
I've not even seen Redbelt, although I knew about it a few years ago thanks to my hollywood and mma connections. I'll wait for netflixing it though. There are enough good movies out there that theres no need to rush. You can't see them all.

[heyseuss]

Hmm, dunno about biggest fight of his career, to be honest. Both his belt fights against Hughes are by far more high profile and his match against GSP should be considered to be too. Considering Penn's match list is basically a who's who of solid fighters (Renzo Gracie, Caol Uno, Takanori Gomi and Lyoto Machida just to name a few), most of them still viable in the game, a fight against a (cheating) lay 'n' pray wrestler isn't that big of a deal.

The only reason I consider this a great match, is because of the whole Sherk/wreslter/steroid thing. I just don't see how Sherks theory of takedown/g'n'p/elbow/improve position, is going to work on BJ. Sherk can jump from guard to half-guard to side control to mount, all he wants, he spent 25 mins doing it to Hermes, but he won't finish BJ that way. Hermes was never in a submission. ... In fact, with the knees hermes landed, and the 2 guillotines, Hermes was closer to winning that fight thatn Sherk was, but Sherk just controlled the fight more and kept improving his position. BJ will sub Sherk from the bottom, or sweep/reverse him repeatedly.... IF sherk gets him down,.... BJ's hands are better than sherks as well. The only thing Sherk has on BJ is his muscles and possibly cardio.

[optimus187prime]

The only reason I consider this a great match, is because of the whole Sherk/wreslter/steroid thing. I just don't see how Sherks theory of takedown/g'n'p/elbow/improve position, is going to work on BJ. Sherk can jump from guard to half-guard to side control to mount, all he wants, he spent 25 mins doing it to Hermes, but he won't finish BJ that way. Hermes was never in a submission. ... In fact, with the knees hermes landed, and the 2 guillotines, Hermes was closer to winning that fight thatn Sherk was, but Sherk just controlled the fight more and kept improving his position. BJ will sub Sherk from the bottom, or sweep/reverse him repeatedly.... IF sherk gets him down,.... BJ's hands are better than sherks as well. The only thing Sherk has on BJ is his muscles and possibly cardio.

I just think the fact that BJ has rededicated himself to fighting and is looking to make an example out of Sherk is why this is his biggest fight. I just dont see BJ doing anything to Sherk his top control is second to none, and in a scramble he rarely ends up in a bad position. Not to say I want him to win, but I just know that if it makes it out of the 3rd, BJ is going to get tired.

[rse2]

Heyseuss: You clearly have some experience in MMA and maybe BJJ at least. I just questioned your knowledge of Japanese history.

Case in point; there were no Aikido practitioners before 1943. So "where were the samurai?" mostly dead.
There were no samurai (for all intents and purposes) after the Meiji restoration in the 1870s.

Of course there were similar skill sets in various forms prior to 1943. Morihei Ueshiba didn't just wake up one morning and say "aha I've got it". He combined and adjusted sword, spear, grappling, striking and throwing techniques he'd learned and taught for years that he called "aikibudo" or "aikinomichi" before he named it Aikido in 1943. Just trying to be accurate. Judo's history is similar.

There is a clear and distinct difference, both technical and historical between Jujutsu (jujitsu) and Judo. Jujutsu's primary focus is the martial defeat of your opponent (mental and physical discipline is both a bi-product and an asset) the dos focus is the following of a philosophical way or path through the practice of physical and mental disciplines which may have their roots in martial skills. The fact that Judo is now a "sport" and the competitors are called Judo players is indicative of what Judo has become in modern times. Nothing wrong with that just needs to be acknowledged.

Because there are similarities does not make them the same. There are similarities with fencing with an electric foil and fighting with a small sword. Doesn't make them the same in intent or technique. Mastery of one may both help and hinder mastery of the other. You can't learn to fight if your training limits your targets, movements, techniques and directions. Creates bad habits that will get you killed unless your opponent has agreed to and follows the same rules. A touch is a long way from 6" of steel in the eye or throat.

Because some samurai learned sword techniques from one of the many Ryu (schools) doesn't mean they practiced Kendo. There are now more than a few modern Kendo ryu that all teach their own brand of Kendo each following the same basic formalized rules. Most would die quickly if faced with a live blade armed Kenjutsu master.

You're the one who posted the video of a Judo black belt getting his butt kicked by a BJJ practitioner. I don't get your issues with what I posted.

I made the distinction initially as the post was about a movie and the movie makes the distinction. I assumed that some people might know enough that the distinction would be of interest.

Again just trying to be accurate and trying to answer the question I was asked as simply and accurately as possible. Anyone can look this stuff up if they care, hence the links I provided to start. 1000 years of Japanese history to delve into.

Even MMA has rules otherwise there'd be a lot of dead guys. Kicking boxing's butt in Vegas from what I understand. Just a matter of time before it gets as corrupt as boxing I'm afraid. Too much money on the table. The fighters are bound to get used and used up. Ugly. Been there.

Good luck to them I know too many sad stories.

Done with this.

[tsmith15]

I could just deal with watching the fight scenes from Snatch for the rest of my life. Nothing like the thrill of bare knuckle boxing to get you riled up.

[optimus187prime]

I could just deal with watching the fight scenes from Snatch for the rest of my life. Nothing like the thrill of bare knuckle boxing to get you riled up.

I love that movie to pieces but people always borrow it and dont return it :mad: