Pretty boys or Manly men? A Rant, a Question...

[kronos6948]

I saw an article earlier on Digg (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/07/04/1214951044370.html) that hit the front page and was quickly buried. This article talked about how it's fashionable for men to wear more and more makeup. It also talked about it going beyond metrosexual to the new term "pansexual".

Now, I get the fact that some men enjoy wearing makeup. To each his own.

But, I, myself, am the type of guy who prefers his men to be manly. And no, this isn't a gay/straight thing either. Rock Hudson was a man's man, yet loved men. This is an androgyny thing. I never understood androgyny.

I miss the days where men were stone faced. Actors looked ugly by today's standards; men like Gene Hackman, John Wayne, Steve McQueen, Charles Bronson, etc.

Now, I know gender bending has been around for a long time...hell, even the Three Stooges did it for laughs. But, this whole movement of men becoming prettier while women become tougher leaves me wondering why?

Now, I think a lot of it has to do with womens preference in men. A lot of women out there prefer men who pretty themselves up and look feminine. Hell, they make hip hugger jeans for men now. UGH! So, more and more men, in a quest to sire a mate, become more and more feminized.

That's my opinion on the subject.

I chose to put this topic on here because I know this board has a very diverse group of people, and I'd like to hear everyone's takes, and I'd also like to know what kind of men you prefer, whether it be sexually or not.

Me? I like 'em rough and manly. As I get older, I look forward to my wrinkles and stone features. It adds character.

[ariastar]

I think it has a lot to do with women's lib and the thought that women are equal to, or superior over, men in every way.

Personally I prefer my men to be the manlier sort, the kind who make me feel protected.

brw, Rock Hudson was a man's man in more than one way. ;)

[murphy1d]

I ran into this with a girl I was pursuing.

I dress well for work (when I was a banker) and I used to be a tailor at a department store. She was always surprised that I could rationally talk through art, design and psychology/sociology. I made sushi for a wine party she had, and it was a huge hit. I assembled her Ikea desk, installed her Key West ceiling fan, and helped her pick out the best laptop for the money.

But then my best friend shows up, and he's a quintessential man's man, Sports, Sex and ignorance of everything else. She's all wet now. She even had the nerve to point out that he was "a man's man" but that I was "more metrosexual." WTF, I'm bald with yellow-ish teeth from having been a smoker. There is basically no grooming going on here. Seriously, I look like Stone Cold Steve Austin (but taller and with less muscle).

So, I get it that the pretty boys are going too far with the makeup and manicures. But what makes a man's man, and does it conflict with what many consider to be "artistic, creative and intellectual?"

I know some will say "of course you can be both," but give me examples. Did Kojak ever quote Descarte? Does "The Rock" bake? Can Brett Favre Photoshop one of his pictures?

I know that these guys can probably do any one of the above, but what happens to the manliness when you're a Renaissance Man?

In the end, what makes a Man's Man?

[kronos6948]

I ran into this with a girl I was pursuing.

I dress well for work (when I was a banker) and I used to be a tailor at a department store. She was always surprised that I could rationally talk through art, design and psychology/sociology. I made sushi for a wine party she had, and it was a huge hit. I assembled her Ikea desk, installed her Key West ceiling fan, and helped her pick out the best laptop for the money.

But then my best friend shows up, and he's a quintessential man's man, Sports, Sex and ignorance of everything else. She's all wet now. She even had the nerve to point out that he was "a man's man" but that I was "more metrosexual." WTF, I'm bald with yellow-ish teeth from having been a smoker. There is basically no grooming going on here. Seriously, I look like Stone Cold Steve Austin (but taller and with less muscle).

So, I get it that the pretty boys are going too far with the makeup and manicures. But what makes a man's man, and does it conflict with what many consider to be "artistic, creative and intellectual?"

I know some will say "of course you can be both," but give me examples. Did Kojak ever quote Descarte? Does "The Rock" bake? Can Brett Favre Photoshop one of his pictures?

I know that these guys can probably do any one of the above, but what happens to the manliness when you're a Renaissance Man?

In the end, what makes a Man's Man?


IMO, if a man can do things without going to the trouble of making himself out to be partially feminine, then he's a man's man. Many a good chef are quite manly, and some are downright burly. What the girl you were talking to was looking for was a frat boy. Someone she'll be pissed off with if she spends more than maybe a few nights with him.


*edited to add...

The essence comes down to how you portray yourself. If you're raiding your mother's or wife's purse to get to their Maybelline, then you aren't a man's man.

As far as cooking goes, remember, you're wielding sharp objects and performing chemistry. For the longest time, women weren't allowed to be chefs, because it was a man's job.

And, IIRC, Descartes was a man. ;)


Oh, also, men CAN appreciate art without acting artsy. I love a good trip to the museum, or the occasional trip to the Orchestra. But I also Al Bundy it up with the best of them.


You should be able to incorporate all the things you love without compromising how you are.

[shandavio]

People decide they need to have their individuality and stop caring what's normal, or what's expected.

[kronos6948]

People decide they need to have their individuality and stop caring what's normal, or what's expected.

True, but this is more of a preference thread.

And, as much as an individual that someone claims they are, they're still in some form of group. It's very rare that you come across someone who's truly original or truly an individual, because true individualism is a lonely place.

Also, you have to admit that some folks do it for the shock value, like a young kid who gives himself a mowhawk or liberty spikes.

[shandavio]

True, but this is more of a preference thread.

And, as much as an individual that someone claims they are, they're still in some form of group. It's very rare that you come across someone who's truly original or truly an individual, because true individualism is a lonely place.

Also, you have to admit that some folks do it for the shock value, like a young kid who gives himself a mowhawk or liberty spikes.

Which is why most people are hypocrites. Non-conformists aren't not conforming to anything, just conforming to the idea and concept of non-conformity. No one's really that much of an individual.

Either way I'm straight so I could care less how feminine or gruff another man looks. As for myself, I guess that'd be up to someone else to decide.

[kronos6948]

Which is why most people are hypocrites. Non-conformists aren't not conforming to anything, just conforming to the idea and concept of non-conformity. No one's really that much of an individual.

Either way I'm straight so I could care less how feminine or gruff another man looks. As for myself, I guess that'd be up to someone else to decide.

I see where you're coming from.

The reason why I care is that I guess I'm getting old, and this is my "What is it with these damned kids nowadays" gene kicking in. Back in my day.... :D

[phatlip12]

You won't catch me wearing make up. It was lame when Twisted Sister did it and it's lame now.

[tokenuser]

I miss the days where men were stone faced. Actors looked ugly by today's standards; men like Gene Hackman, John Wayne, Steve McQueen, Charles Bronson, etc.I remember seeing an article a couple of months back that basially said that when Hollywood needed a rugged leading man they are now turning to Australia - Russell Crowe, Hugh Jackman, Heath Ledger (RIP). Mainly because they hadn't been caught up in the Hollywood pretty boy metrosexual, triple crown waxed (back, crack, and sack), perfect skin craze that dominates Hollywood.

There aren't that many manly men actors out there anymore - certainly not of a high enough calibre to carry an A-List movie, without getting repetitious. There is only so much Clooney, Gere, and Ford to go around ... and Will ("awww hell no") Smith's dance card is full.

[ariastar]

I remember seeing an article a couple of months back that basially said that when Hollywood needed a rugged leading man they are now turning to Australia - Russell Crowe, Hugh Jackman, Heath Ledger (RIP). Mainly because they hadn't been caught up in the Hollywood pretty boy metrosexual, triple crown waxed (back, crack, and sack), perfect skin craze that dominates Hollywood.

There aren't that many manly men actors out there anymore - certainly not of a high enough calibre to carry an A-List movie, without getting repetitious. There is only so much Clooney, Gere, and Ford to go around ... and Will ("awww hell no") Smith's dance card is full.

Oh yeah. American actors are soft. I can see them bitching over a splinter before changing a flat tire on a car. It's good when a guy takes care of himself and understands things like sewing (but only because I do a LOT of it) and doesn't hold back his every emotion unless it's aggression, but quite another when his bathroom counter contains more beauty products than mine.

[kronos6948]

You won't catch me wearing make up. It was lame when Twisted Sister did it and it's lame now.

Twisted Sister did it to caricaturize the pretty boy glam movement. Dee Snyder even said that they were ugly men, only trying to make themselves uglier.

That being said, this whole "corpse paint" thing with the black metal scene I find to be a bit silly. If anything, they look more like wrestlers (I can't find the pic of Immortal where one of them had a championship belt...it's hilarious) or bad Kiss wannabe's. Leave the facepaint to KISS or King Diamond.

[kronos6948]

I remember seeing an article a couple of months back that basially said that when Hollywood needed a rugged leading man they are now turning to Australia - Russell Crowe, Hugh Jackman, Heath Ledger (RIP). Mainly because they hadn't been caught up in the Hollywood pretty boy metrosexual, triple crown waxed (back, crack, and sack), perfect skin craze that dominates Hollywood.

There aren't that many manly men actors out there anymore - certainly not of a high enough calibre to carry an A-List movie, without getting repetitious. There is only so much Clooney, Gere, and Ford to go around ... and Will ("awww hell no") Smith's dance card is full.

Hmm...current "Man's Men" from the US in film as far as I can remember....

George Clooney
Bruce Willis
Mickey Rourke
Michael Madsen
Al Pacino
Robert DeNiro

I would've included Joe Pesci, but with all that plastic surgery he's gotten, he looks like a wax statue.

[kowgod]

I like to tear the heads off of kittens with my teeth, then smear the blood across my face and chest.

Now that's what I call manly makeup.

[murphy1d]

...It's very rare that you come across someone who's truly original or truly an individual, because true individualism is a lonely place.

I hear you with this. IMO, the less you are an individual, the more friends you have. It seems to be a "lowest common denominator" thing.

But back on track, I do believe that a Man's Man has a few common things, not that I follow all of them, but I do see some threads:
#1 - Confidence. Not cockyness, but a knowing that you are usually right (not "thinking you are").
#2 - No fear - Not a slogan, more of a switch that turns off when need be.
#3 - Sense of right and wrong - Like #2, a switch that is either on or off.
#4 - Weight Carrying - Both literal and figurative, the MM decides what to take responsibility for and will not give anyone else that responsibility. That's why two MMs have trouble working together. Prolly why Crowe and Ford haven't worked together
#5 - Discipline - Mostly self discipline, but also discipline of others in their gang, family, or work unit.

[xibalba]

Cropse paint is silly and when doesn't Immortal look silly. There also seems to be a large collection LOLImmortal images out thar.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r317/Viking_Warlord/immortal.jpg

[skyz]

. There is only so much Clooney, Gere, and Ford to go around ...


gere started out as a pretty boy (days of heaven) he's a buddhist i like that

george is both pretty and manly (not easy to do)

i like sean penn

leo di caprio evolved from pretty to manly too


i like excess brains over excess brawn

[radzack]

I like to think of myself as both. My lady calls me metro sometimes, other times my guyness really shows. I love to be able to cook up an amazing meal while looking great. Hygiene and your display to others is a great tool in life. People are very very drawn to attractive things. In the work that I do, it's important to be liked...just look at apple products...they are beautiful, and are the envy of all other tech gadgets.

[bigshotprof]

One vote for tired old fools!

[radzack]

One vote for tired old fools!


Right on!

[quix]

Of the two options I would have to say the former. It seems strange to me to assume that one must abandon masculinity in order to bring about equality. That's not to say that one can't be an intellectual, an artist, or a philosopher and be a male, because that's simply ludicrous. I'm also not saying that there should be an absolute lack of hygiene either. If I was going to make a bullet point list off the top of my head of what a man "should" be(if one can define gender in that way):

1. Morality - A man should have a clear sense of right and wrong yet also understand that there will be disagreement. They also must understand that civility and decency is a mark of strength rather than weakness(I would also say women should have a similar sense of morality and decency.) This would include the strength of character to not abandon their beliefs just because they're unpopular.

2. Discipline - The ability to focus on what needs to be done and to not pick the easier path when the harder way is the better way. It would primarily be self-discipline.

3. Confidence - This refers not only to the confidence which would make him certain of himself but would also be the confidence to accept others as they are and not confuse difference with a threat.

4. Intelligence - Ignorance is a weakness as it allows you to be tricked and manipulated. One must have a basic understanding of critical thinking, politics, and philosophy.

5. Responsibility - A man must take responsibility for their actions and not hoist responsibility which should be theirs' on someone else. They also can't hide from something just because they believe it to be difficult.

[heyseuss]

One vote for tired old fools!

Tired and old, maybe, . . . fool, no.

[samureye]

I like makeup....when in front a camera. Is that bad?

[quix]

That...that doesn't count.

[msmags]

I like my men groomed, but only to a point. Please pluck that uni-brow, clean under your fingernails, put on a bit of cologne, change your underwear daily, use deoderant, brush your teeth at least twice a day (flossing is a bonus!)....some of this might be just good hygiene, but it's amazing how many guys still 'don't get it' when it comes to grooming/hygiene.


I'm not a fan of lipgloss, eye makeup/liner/mascara on guys, extremely waxed eyebrows, tons of hair gel....etc. If it takes you longer to get ready than it takes me, we have a big problem. Take some tips from the ladies, but don't go to far with it. If you start borrowing my baby t's or eyelash curler, we're in trouble. :D

[heyseuss]

I like my men groomed, but only to a point. Please pluck that uni-brow, clean under your fingernails, put on a bit of cologne, change your underwear daily,

Underwear !?!?!? Pfftt, I won't allow myself the constraint.

[tokenuser]

I like my men groomed, but only to a point. Please pluck that uni-brow, clean under your fingernails, put on a bit of cologne, change your underwear daily, use deoderant, brush your teeth at least twice a day (flossing is a bonus!)....some of this might be just good hygiene, but it's amazing how many guys still 'don't get it' when it comes to grooming/hygiene. Clean teeth twice a day? I do mine in the morning, and maybe in the evening ... but dont drink coffee or smoke, so my breath isn't too bad late in the day. I floss maybe weekly if I am lucky, but gargle listerine (citrus) most days.

As for the whole metro sexual thing. I dont use "product" in my hair, but get the unibrow seperated every so often. Closest thing to makeup is sunblock when I am outside for a long time. The only jewelry I own/wear is a wedding ring, and a watch (and they dont match - matt gold wedding ring, stainless watch).

I'm comfortable with who I am and my personal identity. Last weekend, I attended a modern dance recital with my wife. I was possibly one of only 12 straight men in the theatre ;) ... especially since they were also raising money for AIDS research. Over the next couple of weeks I am taking a cake decorating class on Monday nights. Those two things are about as far from NASCAR and Grillin' that you can get :)

[xibalba]

This Is So Going To Be My New Manly Theme Song - :D
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CMDP_FKXHDY

[ryudo]

This Is So Going To Be My New Manly Theme Song - :D
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CMDP_FKXHDY


Remember everyone Robin hood was man and wore tights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lUjhEHlh7s

[skyz]

Former Pittsburgh Steeler wide receiver Lynn Swann, who appeared in the ESPN "apology ad" that ran in DANCE MAGAZINE in May 2003, can attest to the benefits of ballet training for athletes. His Pro Football Hall of Fame citation notes his "fluid movements" and "tremendous leaping ability"--products of several years of childhood and college dance training. A sportscaster once referred to him as "the Baryshnikov of football."

Though Swann volunteers as a spokesman for Pittsburgh Ballet Theater, he knows he's no Baryshnikov. Still, he says his classes in tap, jazz, and especially ballet greatly enhanced his athletic skills. "If one movement flows to another, you're going to be able to be evasive on the field and a good football player."



source (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1083/is_1_78/ai_112212780)

[msmags]

Clean teeth twice a day? I do mine in the morning, and maybe in the evening ... but dont drink coffee or smoke, so my breath isn't too bad late in the day. I floss maybe weekly if I am lucky, but gargle listerine (citrus) most days.




I'm a teeth freak, what can I say? :D

A gorgeous, bright smile will always make me swoon, especially if the smile is attached to a handsome, well dressed man. ;)

[skyz]

I'm a teeth freak, what can I say? :D

A gorgeous, bright smile will always make me swoon, especially if the smile is attached to a handsome, well dressed man. ;)

i'm a clean freak

i clean my tile floors with alcohol :)

i invest in all kinds of soaps rose soap lavender soap tea tree soap peppermint soap organic baby shampoo natural baking soda toothpaste comet lilac tide oxy borax clorox

jeans with white tshits are fine so are armani suits with white shirts

but those white shirts better sparkle

if you dream to get close to me

forget the mascara and forget the cologne: soap often !

[murphy1d]

I'm a teeth freak, what can I say? :D

A gorgeous, bright smile will always make me swoon, especially if the smile is attached to a handsome, well dressed man. ;)

I guess now that I'm on my 6th month of quitting smoking I could try to do a full 14 days of the teeth whitening products. I tried in the past but they only kept my teeth white for about 2 months, then the off-whiteness from smoking and coffee crept back in.

Well, I quit smoking and coffee both, so there may be hope yet.

[gonzooo]

This thread is the least manly thing I've stumbled upon in a good while.

[skyz]

This thread is the least manly thing I've stumbled upon in a good while.

they're cute in how they talk i'm all manly though

it makes me smile :) for some reason :D

[tokenuser]

i clean my tile floors with alcohol :)
Hey! waddaya know. I have been known to spill alcohol on tiled floor as well!! I am a little less discriminatory than that though - I have also spilt alcohol on wood floor, carpet, grass, concrete. Pretty much any hard surface, plus several soft surfaces as well (table clothes, couches, jeans, shirts, etc).

[-jedibitch-]

I am a fan of manly men.

I would hate to be able to beat my boyfriend in a arm wrestle. For me, that is the ultimate test.

Also, he has to be able to grow a wicked beard.

But yeah, cleanliness is good I guess. I dunno, sweaty dirty men can be damn hot (Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn... yum)

[msmags]

I guess now that I'm on my 6th month of quitting smoking I could try to do a full 14 days of the teeth whitening products. I tried in the past but they only kept my teeth white for about 2 months, then the off-whiteness from smoking and coffee crept back in.

Well, I quit smoking and coffee both, so there may be hope yet.

Gratz on quitting smoking (and coffee)! Good for you. :D

On a side note, another 'hell no' with respect to guys I wouldn't date are smokers. Can't stand the taste or smell. Ugh.

[comhcinc]

if it makes you happy do it. if you are comfortable with the way you are then i am comfortable with you.

[quix]

Is there a definition we can all agree on of what "pretty boys" and "manly men" are? I mean, most people tend to mean a Neanderthal when they say the latter and a Final Fantasy protagonist when they say the former. But, I don't know I think those are entirely accurate.

[comhcinc]

Is there a definition we can all agree on of what "pretty boys" and "manly men" are?

i don't think there is. why not just not label anyone? label are bad.

[quix]

True.

[guytheninja]

When I was a kid, I thought the old-school Casey Jones from tmnt was the manliest man ever --- Even though he was half crazy :D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxG8TUWpiHc&feature=related

He was obviously a character paying homage to the "Dirty Harry" films. I hate that Casey a "nice guy" now. I liked his old school half-crazed attitude.

[bigshotprof]

I like makeup....when in front a camera. Is that bad?

Depends on who's running the camera.

[ryudo]

When I was a kid, I thought the old-school Casey Jones from tmnt was the manliest man ever --- Even though he was half crazy :D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxG8TUWpiHc&feature=related

He was obviously a character paying homage to the "Dirty Harry" films. I hate that Casey a "nice guy" now. I liked his old school half-crazed attitude.
Casey also rocked in the first film in 1990.

[tokenuser]

Depends on who's running the camera.Depends what type of movie he is shooting.

<cue music ... Bow Chicka Bow Wow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvYaTSPUju4)>

[heyseuss]

He was obviously a character paying homage to the "Dirty Harry" films. I hate that Casey a "nice guy" now. I liked his old school half-crazed attitude.

Don't know where you get the Dirty Harry idea from, other than he was a vigilante, one man militia, doing the same thing the turtles were doing, fighting cime.

Played by Elias Koteas in the movie, you know hiim from a million great roles since.

[guytheninja]

Don't know where you get the Dirty Harry idea from, other than he was a vigilante, one man militia, doing the same thing the turtles were doing, fighting cime.

Played by Elias Koteas in the movie, you know hiim from a million great roles since.

Didn't you notice when Casey said "Go ahead, make my night"?

Sudden Impact - Go ahead make my day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6-Snl4a1RI

[heyseuss]

Didn't you notice when Casey said "Go ahead, make my night"?



Thanks for the link, in case I didn't know what the phrase was from.:D I just didn't really think that his character was a homage exactly, I guess you could say it was loosely, but, very loosely.



I still own the original TMNT soundtrack, on a record.

[guytheninja]

Depends what type of movie he is shooting.

<cue music ... Bow Chicka Bow Wow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvYaTSPUju4)>

Boo!!! Down with Axe body wash/spray whatever. Are men no longer able to use a bar of soap? We must resist the ways of the body wash!!!!

[heyseuss]

<cue music ... Bow Chicka Bow Wow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvYaTSPUju4)>

That made me throw up a little.