What is your faith?

[ariastar]

PLEASE, people NO BASHING! I believe we are all mature enough to not go slamming anyone for their beliefs. I have a reason for asking this question. Please be tolerant and accepting here. Let the Rev3 folks know they have good people here.

[masherscf]

I worship Aria.

[ariastar]

If you fit more than one, please select the one that is primary. If you do not wish to do so, please select "Other." If you are Scientologist and something else (Scientology does not deal with the existence nor the non-existence of a god or gods, and, therefore, you can be Scientologist and anything else), then please select "Scientologist."

I can not stress enough to keep this thread calm and free from flaming.

[ariastar]

I worship Aria.

LOL! You're silly. However, I am not one of the options.

[masherscf]

LOL! You're silly. However, I am not one of the options.

Okay, Then I'm one of those "C&E" Christ worshipers. My Dad was an Episcopal priest. My deep repect for him will never allow me accept a more agnostic viewpoint. In any case, whenever I look at words and ideas that Jesus himself expoused, removed from two-thousand years of church dogma, I find the message profound. This profoundity is in no way effected by any estimate of Jesus's divinity. However, I find the idea that we're more than a complex mass of self-replicating protiens a comfort. Nevertheless, I have no proof of that. Evolution is a fact to me.

I think people are spiritual beings and that spirtuality needs to be nourished somehow. I don't find any particular system of spiritual belief more valid than another. Any of these can be abused by bad people.

[bman]

I was born Prodestian, but I am actually an Atheist.

[wastern]

raised Lutheran, now I'm nothing

[tokenuser]

I am hedging my bets as an agnostic.

That not actually a bad thing - it means that you have a sense of a "greater power", but don't know what it is. For me, it could actually be a belief in science and the laws of the universe rather than a monotheastic doctrine of worship.

Religions are based on faith. A faith that the teachings are real, and a faith that those teaching you the teachings are interpretting them as intended. However, more importantly, it is a shared, common, belief system that brings people together in a sense of community - and that is important.

There was a time when the church (insert any denomination in here I am using it generically) was the source of education for many people (indeed, the university system is modelled after the monastic system it grew out of). The communication of basic laws of human responsibility (10 commandments), basic hygene/health (jewish kosher food prep), etc., were all required at a time when people were illiterate, and turned to the church for their teaching.

We are now better educated, have access to more educational material, and have a better understanding of our environments - so the role of the church as a teacher has all but disappeared.

[trashcan]

Okay, Then I'm one of those "C&E" Christ worshipers. My Dad was an Episcopal priest. My deep repect for him will never allow me accept a more agnostic viewpoint. In any case, whenever I look at words and ideas that Jesus himself expoused, removed from two-thousand years of church dogma, I find the message profound. This profoundity is in no way effected by any estimate of Jesus's divinity. However, I find the idea that we're more than a complex mass of self-replicating protiens a comfort. Nevertheless, I have no proof of that. Evolution is a fact to me.

I think people are spiritual beings and that spirtuality needs to be nourished somehow. I don't find any particular system of spiritual belief more valid than another. Any of these can be abused by bad people.


You sir, win the prize.
Remove Christ's teachings from the hum-bum of Christian doctrine, and you have a very simple thing: an incredibly philosophically wise man, spreading his teachings to others. If you don't think of Christ as your savior, think of him as your Socrates.
I find it hard to believe that people would construct a thousand page book based around things a man said if he didn't actually say them. On that note, I believe there was a man named Jesus Christ.
I also believe in evolution.

Also, as you said, I believe that there are three parts to being human. The Mind, Body, and Spirit. All three must be nourished so that the group as a whole-that is, you as a human-can develop and grow. Personally I don't care how you nourish your spiritual side. All that matters is that you do something.

And, as Aria has said several times already, please don't turn this into a flame war. Nobody here is wrong.

[ariastar]

You sir, win the prize.
Remove Christ's teachings from the hum-bum of Christian doctrine, and you have a very simple thing: an incredibly philosophically wise man, spreading his teachings to others. If you don't think of Christ as your savior, think of him as your Socrates.
I find it hard to believe that people would construct a thousand page book based around things a man said if he didn't actually say them. On that note, I believe there was a man named Jesus Christ.
I also believe in evolution.

Also, as you said, I believe that there are three parts to being human. The Mind, Body, and Spirit. All three must be nourished so that the group as a whole-that is, you as a human-can develop and grow. Personally I don't care how you nourish your spiritual side. All that matters is that you do something.

And, as Aria has said several times already, please don't turn this into a flame war. Nobody here is wrong.

The original meaning og the word "Christian" was one who followed the teachings of Christ. The First Counsel of Nicaea changed that.

[tokenuser]

And, as Aria has said several times already, please don't turn this into a flame war. Nobody here is wrong.I don't think he was flaming at all - he was just expressing an opinion that may or may not be contradictory to yours, and I think he did it in a clear, non inflamatory way. That is what a discussion is about.

[xibalba]

Since alot was left out of just about all religious doctrine for many religions. To me there is no reason to believe any holy book. I choose Other. Atheism seems to have evolved into its own type of religion even though thats basic impossible.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is more appealing than any other religion or belief/non-belief lol

[trashcan]

I don't think he was flaming at all - he was just expressing an opinion that may or may not be contradictory to yours, and I think he did it in a clear, non inflamatory way. That is what a discussion is about.

No no I wasn't talking to him, I was talking to everyone. Just a request to keep this thread flame free. I wasn't insinuating that he was in the wrong at all. Sorry for the confusion.

[tokenuser]

No no I wasn't talking to him, I was talking to everyone. Just a request to keep this thread flame free. I wasn't insinuating that he was in the wrong at all. Sorry for the confusion.No worries. Posts like this CAN become a flame fest ... so I will be keeping an eye on it. So far, so good.

But FFS - The Flying Spaghetti Monster?? Not a great basis for religious doctrine. The *true* believers know that he was a false prophet, and the eastern Egg Noodle Monster, while lesser known, provided a much better basis for religious sauces.

[trashcan]

How can you have a viable religious basis without meatballs? Clearly you are a heretic. Burn, witch.

[tokenuser]

How can you have a viable religious basis without meatballs? Clearly you are a heretic. Burn, witch.Bah. Meatballs ... when the end is nigh, carbonara will rule the pasta.

Oops. Off topic.

There are a number of alternate religions that also bear mentioning, but when it comes down to it they basically fall into eastern faiths, western faiths, and modern faiths.

I am still unclear as to why there is such animosity between Christian, Muslim, and Jewish faiths ... they all start out with the same basic story (Old Testament), but at that point it devolves into a choose your own adventure book - the Jews say that is where the story ends, the Christians say Jesus was not only a prophet, but the Son of God (New Testament), and the Muslims say JC was just another prophet, just like Mohammed (Koran).

Then you get other twists that add alternate endings, like the Kabalah (Jewish), the Mormons, Jehovas, etc (Christian), and various Islamic sects.

It reminds me of a Babylon5 episode when they were having a celebration of each races religion. Each race showed a ceremony from their faith. Then at the tail end of the show, Sheridan presented the religion of earth, and representatives of all the faiths saying hello, and welcoming everyone. If only we could get to a point were all the faiths can happily sit in the same room together without it becoming a holy war.

[trashcan]

If only we could get to a point were all the faiths can happily sit in the same room together without it becoming a holy war.

Thou shalt not kill. Unless you're different; Get the lynchin' rope.

[phatlip12]

Im a Christian but Im not super religious. I don't go to church but I believe in god and accepted Jesus. I don't pray as much as I would like to (I used to do it every night before I went to bed but as I got older I found myself forgetting more and more). I also have some of my own theories and ideas on Christianity.

[trashcan]

I also have some of my own theories and ideas on Christianity.

Care to share? That is, after all, what this thread is for :D

[tokenuser]

Thou shalt not kill. Unless you're different; Get the lynchin' rope.It doesn't need to come to that ... everyone could sit down to a big bowl of Spaghetti or Egg Noodles.

Well, almost everyone ... I think the cream and bacon in a carbonara might rule out the Jews and Muslims, the beef in the meatballs would probably offend the Hindis, and I am sure other combinations would be offensive as well.

[trashcan]

It doesn't need to come to that ... everyone could sit down to a big bowl of Spaghetti or Egg Noodles.

Well, almost everyone ... I think the cream and bacon in a carbonara might rule out the Jews and Muslims, the beef in the meatballs would probably offend the Hindis, and I am sure other combinations would be offensive as well.

Kosher Ramen - A meal enjoyable by all denominations and organizations.

[tokenuser]

Kosher Ramen - A meal enjoyable by all denominations and organizations.Kosher Ramen? Is that the one where you throw away the contents and boil the container?

[phatlip12]

Care to share? That is, after all, what this thread is for :D

Sure thing :)

I see some problems in the philosophy in which Christians get into heaven. The idea is you must accept Jesus while you are still alive and ask to be forgiven for your sins. I don't agree with this. Why? A few reasons:

What about people that never learned about Christianity? What about tribes that live in remote parts of the Amazon jungle? Should the be damn to hell for not having the knowledge? I think not.

Throughout all of my life I was told that God is forgiving. I believe this and I believe that this forgiveness will be granted after death as well. I think we will have the opportunity to make a final decision about our faith once again after we die. God wants us to worship him when we are alive but I don't understand why he would deny one entrance to heaven for "choosing the wrong faith". I also have a hard time believing that all of the Jewish people killed in the holocaust are not in heaven because they were not Christian.

I also believe in scientific theory but see it as being gods work. Whats wrong with seeing the big bang as being done by God?

Those are a few of my own theories on Christianity.

[ariastar]

Sure thing :)

I see some problems in the philosophy in which Christians get into heaven. The idea is you must accept Jesus while you are still alive and ask to be forgiven for your sins. I don't agree with this. Why? A few reasons:

What about people that never learned about Christianity? What about tribes that live in remote parts of the Amazon jungle? Should the be damn to hell for not having the knowledge? I think not.

Throughout all of my life I was told that God is forgiving. I believe this and I believe that this forgiveness will be granted after death as well. I think we will have the opportunity to make a final decision about our faith once again after we die. God wants us to worship him when we are alive but I don't understand why he would deny one entrance to heaven for "choosing the wrong faith". I also have a hard time believing that all of the Jewish people killed in the holocaust are not in heaven because they were not Christian.

I also believe in scientific theory but see it as being gods work. Whats wrong with seeing the big bang as being done by God?

Those are a few of my own theories on Christianity.

There is also debate the heaven is a gift to all. But others believe it's only going to be attainable by few come judgement day. If you believe in god, the big bang could have been done by him, evolution could have been him weeding out his mistakes (which most Christians believe he doesn't make), etc..

I was raised Christian, but no longer believe it. In the original meaning, being one who follows the teachings of the Christ, okay, but in the modern meaning? No. I don't believe Jesus was the son of god put here to die for out sins and redeem us, making him our savior (which is why Jewish people also aren't Christians). I don't believe he walked on water, not that Mary was magically impregnanted. I don't believe he was white, as often depicted. I don't believe his body rose from the dead, not that he rose others from the dead. I do believe a lot of this was made up during the first Counsel of Nicaea.

I do believe that there may be some other force in play, but I also believe there may not be. I also believe that we are out spirits/souls, and that our bodies are just vessels for them. Once we die, our spirits are not retrieved by a god to undergo scrutiny to evaluate where we should go.

I had two reasons for starting this thread. First, I have been curious in the thoughts and beliefs of others, and second, to see if there were any Scientologists here. Aside from me.

[klitzy]

and second, to see if there were any Scientologists here. Aside from me.

All jokingness aside...Why does Scientology get such a bad name? People think its a joke and that they are all crazy. I, personally, don't even know what they believe in or think or what not and I would love to know. I may just need to do a quick knowledge update on wikipedia but I would rather here it from a scientologist themselves so Aria...If you don't mind...What in fact is Scientology?

[phatlip12]

There is also debate the heaven is a gift to all. But others believe it's only going to be attainable by few come judgement day. If you believe in god, the big bang could have been done by him, evolution could have been him weeding out his mistakes (which most Christians believe he doesn't make), etc..

I was raised Christian, but no longer believe it. In the original meaning, being one who follows the teachings of the Christ, okay, but in the modern meaning? No. I don't believe Jesus was the son of god put here to die for out sins and redeem us, making him our savior (which is why Jewish people also aren't Christians). I don't believe he walked on water, not that Mary was magically impregnanted. I don't believe he was white, as often depicted. I don't believe his body rose from the dead, not that he rose others from the dead. I do believe a lot of this was made up during the first Counsel of Nicaea.

I do believe that there may be some other force in play, but I also believe there may not be. I also believe that we are out spirits/souls, and that our bodies are just vessels for them. Once we die, our spirits are not retrieved by a god to undergo scrutiny to evaluate where we should go.

I had two reasons for starting this thread. First, I have been curious in the thoughts and beliefs of others, and second, to see if there were any Scientologists here. Aside from me.

When I read someone voted Scientologist I thought it was a joke due to the South Park episode.

South Park was obviouslly making fun of Scientology. I was just wondering how accurate there description of it was when they were talking about what they believe in?

[avcabob]

Knowing that Agnostic and Atheist are different, why did you decided to put them together?

[crumbles]

...and second, to see if there were any Scientologists here. Aside from me.Ba hahaha, you people make me laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgBvq4O26SE

Scientology... hahaha.

[xibalba]

basically all values, beliefs, and existence is senseless and useless

[nymph3tamine]

So I guess I'm the only Pastafarian here?

Once His noodly appendage touches you, you will be changed forever. RAmen!

http://digg.com/videos_comedy/ACTUAL_FOOTAGE_of_the_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Oh yes, He is real.

[xibalba]

So I guess I'm the only Pastafarian here?

Once His noodly appendage touches you, you will be changed forever. RAmen!

http://digg.com/videos_comedy/ACTUAL_FOOTAGE_of_the_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Oh yes, He is real.

If I ever met the Flying Spaghetti Monster he wouldn't be alive long. I love spaghetti. I bet it would be the best tasting ever.

[njshadow]

Im a Christian but Im not super religious. I don't go to church but I believe in god and accepted Jesus. I don't pray as much as I would like to (I used to do it every night before I went to bed but as I got older I found myself forgetting more and more). I also have some of my own theories and ideas on Christianity.

Dude! That's great! :D Judging by that I guess you can tell that I am indeed a born-again Christian. LOL, they said no flaming, does that include debating?:D

[masherscf]

I believe in god and accepted Jesus.


That's very magnanimous of you. I'll sleep better. ;)

[vhalkirian666]

basically all values, beliefs, and existence is senseless and useless

..so that would make you a nihilist(sp)?

[vhalkirian666]

I was raised Christian, but no longer believe it. In the original meaning, being one who follows the teachings of the Christ, okay, but in the modern meaning? No. I don't believe Jesus was the son of god put here to die for out sins and redeem us, making him our savior (which is why Jewish people also aren't Christians). I don't believe he walked on water, not that Mary was magically impregnanted. I don't believe he was white, as often depicted. I don't believe his body rose from the dead, not that he rose others from the dead. I do believe a lot of this was made up during the first Counsel of Nicaea.


What led you to believe that it was all made up?

I do believe that there may be some other force in play, but I also believe there may not be.

So you think that everything that happens is just random cosmic luck or maybe not? If not...then how would that "cosmic force" be explained?

I also believe that we are out spirits/souls, and that our bodies are just vessels for them. Once we die, our spirits are not retrieved by a god to undergo scrutiny to evaluate where we should go.

Then what would be the point of having a spirit?

===
So...if i understand correctly by some of the replies to this thread...We are just here by some cosmic luck...everything that happens in life is pointless...and when we die...that's it...nothing else...

So...what's the point to living? Where's the hope...the reason for getting up everyday and working trying to make a life for ourselves and our families if it all just has no meaning?

I am sorry, but I just cannot believe that we are here by some random cosmic luck and that life really has no meaning in the end...
Creation and the people in it are just too complicated and intricate for me to believe that...

[xibalba]

..so that would make you a nihilist(sp)?

i suppose,

the lyrics in my sig says alot about me.

[tokenuser]

...We are just here by some cosmic luck...To quote Penn Gillette - "Luck is just probability taken personally."

Seems kinda fitting.

[vhalkirian666]

To quote Penn Gillette - "Luck is just probability taken personally."

Seems kinda fitting.

LOL...I choose to believe what I believe regardless of what others think...We are all free to choose and live our lives based on what we have chosen to believe...
Just because others choose to believe in different things than I do, doesn't mean I take it personally nor do I look down on them for their beliefs...

....so what would the probability be that the "whole of creation" happened outside of design?

[ariastar]

All jokingness aside...Why does Scientology get such a bad name? People think its a joke and that they are all crazy. I, personally, don't even know what they believe in or think or what not and I would love to know. I may just need to do a quick knowledge update on wikipedia but I would rather here it from a scientologist themselves so Aria...If you don't mind...What in fact is Scientology?

Sweetie, I'm still new. After a couple years of research, weeding the truth from the lies, I finally just joined Saturday with the help of someone dear. I will see if he'll answer this because I don't want to do Scientology more harm than good by getting something wrong. I appreciate your willingness to learn more from a source more credible than an internet search.

[ariastar]

All jokingness aside...Why does Scientology get such a bad name? People think its a joke and that they are all crazy. I, personally, don't even know what they believe in or think or what not and I would love to know. I may just need to do a quick knowledge update on wikipedia but I would rather here it from a scientologist themselves so Aria...If you don't mind...What in fact is Scientology?

Max, who has been a Scientologist his whole 25 years of this life, has this to say:
"Scientology is the study of the spirit and its relation to life. The stuff on Wikipedia isn't very accurate. There's actually a whole "What Is Scientology" site though, that's pretty interesting: http://www.whatisscientology.org/"

You can also check http://www.scientology.org, the church's official site, and http://www.religioustolerance.org/scientol.htm. If you have specific questions, I'd be glad to get the correct answers, though also encourage you to read through these sites in your own as well. Ignore ClamBake, even ignore the Wiki on this one. Xenu is a load of crap, a rumor spread to destroy a new religion. All new religions start out harassed. While the weapon now is words, early Christians were stoned.

[ariastar]

Ba hahaha, you people make me laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgBvq4O26SE

Scientology... hahaha.

If you notice, the asshole doesn't let the man on the stand speak during parts of it to clarify anything.

[ariastar]

Knowing that Agnostic and Atheist are different, why did you decided to put them together?

Because a lot of people don't know the difference, and often use the words interchangeably.

[ariastar]

When I read someone voted Scientologist I thought it was a joke due to the South Park episode.

South Park was obviouslly making fun of Scientology. I was just wondering how accurate there description of it was when they were talking about what they believe in?

What they got right were the rumors. :) But rumors are not truth. Hubbard's thetan (his spiritual being, NOT an alien blown to bits) may choose to be reborn again, but that is all. Xenu is false, the secrecy is false, and so on.

Of course, with all the defamation sites out there, it would sure make them seem credible. Never before has a religion been so new around a time with a technology as far-reaching as the internet to try to destroy it.

[ariastar]

What led you to believe that it was all made up?

Research Constantine and the First Counsel of Nicaea. Also, try to recall with complete accuracy any conversation you had a week ago. Now tell someone else. Have that person tell someone else. Already you've got something different. Now do this for two hundred years and across a new language. NOW write it down and tell me if it hasn't been messed up with time.


So you think that everything that happens is just random cosmic luck or maybe not? If not...then how would that "cosmic force" be explained?

What made the cosmic force? Where did it come from?


Then what would be the point of having a spirit?

Because your spirit is who you are. You can take the components that make a human and put them together, but not have a human without a spirit. The body is a machine, a vessel, for your spirit.


So...if i understand correctly by some of the replies to this thread...We are just here by some cosmic luck...everything that happens in life is pointless...and when we die...that's it...nothing else...

So...what's the point to living? Where's the hope...the reason for getting up everyday and working trying to make a life for ourselves and our families if it all just has no meaning?

I am sorry, but I just cannot believe that we are here by some random cosmic luck and that life really has no meaning in the end...
Creation and the people in it are just too complicated and intricate for me to believe that...

Some of us believe in an afterlife, or that our spirit goes on and can be reborn. The reason to live is to just be. Exist. Be happy! Life means what you make of it.

[ariastar]

So I guess I'm the only Pastafarian here?

Once His noodly appendage touches you, you will be changed forever. RAmen!

http://digg.com/videos_comedy/ACTUAL_FOOTAGE_of_the_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Oh yes, He is real.

I know of one other Pastafarian here, if only he'd pop in! This should have been an option.

[ariastar]

I apologize for so many back-to-back posts. Trying to shove all that into one post would have been crazy and things lost.

And THANK YOU for not insulting me for this. It's terrible how many hurtful things "friends" have said to me over this. Scientology is not about aliens. It's not about money. That stuff is bull. One day a newer religion will come by and Scientology will no longer be the one in the spotlight.

Question: What's the difference between a cult and a religion?

Answer (highlight): About 500 years.

[ariastar]

To the other SCIENTOLOGIST:

Please send me a PM. Thanks!

Now back to our regularly-scheduled conversation that I am glad has not turned into a flame war.

[crumbles]

If you notice, the asshole doesn't let the man on the stand speak during parts of it to clarify anything.
Looks like he's speaking just fine to me.

Hahhahaa, aliens.

[xibalba]

Max, who has been a Scientologist his whole 25 years of this life, has this to say:
"Scientology is the study of the spirit and its relation to life. The stuff on Wikipedia isn't very accurate. There's actually a whole "What Is Scientology" site though, that's pretty interesting: http://www.whatisscientology.org/"

You can also check http://www.scientology.org, the church's official site, and http://www.religioustolerance.org/scientol.htm. If you have specific questions, I'd be glad to get the correct answers, though also encourage you to read through these sites in your own as well. Ignore ClamBake, even ignore the Wiki on this one. Xenu is a load of crap, a rumor spread to destroy a new religion. All new religions start out harassed. While the weapon now is words, early Christians were stoned.

I think one of the reasons people think its a joke is the fact he was a science fiction writer and the rumors of the alien stuff just made it look worse. The same can be said about and religious author.

Noone knows whats real or not. Just because its written in a book or on a scroll doesn't mean its true. To each their own.

[crumbles]

If you notice, the asshole doesn't let the man on the stand speak during parts of it to clarify anything.
Also, for those of you who need clarification from that video, here is a direct quote from wikipedia's article on Scientology.

Among these advanced teachings, one episode revealed to those who reach OT level III has been much remarked upon: the story of Xenu and his Galactic Confederacy. Xenu (sometimes Xemu) is introduced as an alien ruler of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth in spacecraft resembling Douglas DC-8 airliners, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living. The alien souls continue to do this today, causing a variety of physical ill-effects in modern-day humans. Hubbard called these clustered spirits "Body Thetans," and the advanced levels place considerable emphasis on isolating them and neutralizing their ill effects.

Bahahahaha, Aliens and H-Bombs. That's awesome. What was so unclear there Aria? Sounds like they said it exactly right to me.

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get all those Alien's souls out of you soon enough to start moving objects around the room.

[techman]

Sure thing :)

I see some problems in the philosophy in which Christians get into heaven. The idea is you must accept Jesus while you are still alive and ask to be forgiven for your sins. I don't agree with this. Why? A few reasons:

What about people that never learned about Christianity? What about tribes that live in remote parts of the Amazon jungle? Should the be damn to hell for not having the knowledge? I think not.

Throughout all of my life I was told that God is forgiving. I believe this and I believe that this forgiveness will be granted after death as well. I think we will have the opportunity to make a final decision about our faith once again after we die. God wants us to worship him when we are alive but I don't understand why he would deny one entrance to heaven for "choosing the wrong faith". I also have a hard time believing that all of the Jewish people killed in the holocaust are not in heaven because they were not Christian.

I also believe in scientific theory but see it as being gods work. Whats wrong with seeing the big bang as being done by God?

Those are a few of my own theories on Christianity.

phatlip12, I am not a Christan, however I have read the King James version of the Bible and it does say that there will be a "Resurrection of the Just and Unjust." I believe the unjust would be those people in remote tribes or the mentally handicapped people who will never have the opportunity to learn about his message. I do agree with you on the fact that God is not going to simply damn every none believer, I mean imagine Gandhi burning in hell, now that would be an evil God.

[njshadow]

Man, Phatlip I know what you mean about the whole "what about those who have never heard" thing. I was taught it in church but at the moment I can't exactly recall what the principle was. It is a pretty common question and with a little searching you'll probably find the answer. Try talking to a Christian, and when I say Christian I mean SAVED, pastor who has a really good knowledge of the Bible and your most likely to find the answer there. I have an idea about the whole thing but I'm not entirely sure so I would ecourage you to search for it.

[marduk]

are there any actual scientologists here, or are people just picking that to be jerks?

[avcabob]

Sure thing :)

I see some problems in the philosophy in which Christians get into heaven. The idea is you must accept Jesus while you are still alive and ask to be forgiven for your sins. I don't agree with this. Why? A few reasons:

What about people that never learned about Christianity? What about tribes that live in remote parts of the Amazon jungle? Should the be damn to hell for not having the knowledge? I think not.

Throughout all of my life I was told that God is forgiving. I believe this and I believe that this forgiveness will be granted after death as well. I think we will have the opportunity to make a final decision about our faith once again after we die. God wants us to worship him when we are alive but I don't understand why he would deny one entrance to heaven for "choosing the wrong faith". I also have a hard time believing that all of the Jewish people killed in the holocaust are not in heaven because they were not Christian.

I also believe in scientific theory but see it as being gods work. Whats wrong with seeing the big bang as being done by God?

Those are a few of my own theories on Christianity.

Being Christen myself, and having dealt with some of these questions in the past, I'll do my best to answer.

As for people who never hear about Jesus, when they die, they are judged on the life they lead. So good life meanings getting into heaven even without accepting Jesus or believing in God. But this only works if you really never heard of them. And as for what constitutes a good life, that's up to God to decide. Also, Christianity says Jewish people go to heaven as well and the main difference between Christianity and Judaism is that Jew's don't believe Jesus was the sun of God and therefore don't believe he died for everyone's sins. I also agree with NJShadow in that if you really what your question answered the best, talk to a Pastor, and talk to a few as there are a lot of Christians out there who really arn't Christian. I'm no expert but that's what I've read and learned and come to believe.

And I'm 100% with you on the science thing. I got to know a chemistry teacher who was a big Christian, and he didn't bring his faith into his classroom, and he said the reason he got into chemistry and science in general was try and better understand how perfect of a job God did when he made the natural laws.

[klitzy]

are there any actual scientologists here, or are people just picking that to be jerks?

Haha someone obviously doesnt read the posts...

[vhalkirian666]

Research Constantine and the First Counsel of Nicaea. Also, try to recall with complete accuracy any conversation you had a week ago. Now tell someone else. Have that person tell someone else. Already you've got something different. Now do this for two hundred years and across a new language. NOW write it down and tell me if it hasn't been messed up with time.


That would be quite possible without the Spiritual Aspect of God.

What made the cosmic force? Where did it come from?

Cosmic Force = God

Because your spirit is who you are. You can take the components that make a human and put them together, but not have a human without a spirit. The body is a machine, a vessel, for your spirit.

Personally I believe that a person is body, soul and spirit... the body and the soul is the part of us that is "human"...the spirit part of us is the part that makes us in the image of God...He is spirit, therefore we are also spirit.
It's the spiritual part that survives after our body and soul dies here on earth.

[vhalkirian666]

Just because its written in a book or on a scroll doesn't mean its true. To each their own.

On the other side of the coin just because something was written on a scroll or in a book by people over 2,000 years ago doesn't automatically mean that it's false either.

[xibalba]

Anyone here have the belief that the earth was created by mistake by an evil god?

Also anyone a Satanist here and willing to admit it? Just wondering.

[tokenuser]

On the other side of the coin just because something was written on a scroll or in a book by people over 2,000 years ago doesn't automatically mean that it's false either.It also doesn't mean that the text hasn't been mis translated several times over those 2000 years to corrupt or at least skew the original meaning of the message ... because we all know Aramaic to Latin to Greek to Middle English to English with questionable credentials of the translators makes for an accurate telling of a story.

[vhalkirian666]

As for people who never hear about Jesus, when they die, they are judged on the life they lead. So good life meanings getting into heaven even without accepting Jesus or believing in God. But this only works if you really never heard of them. And as for what constitutes a good life, that's up to God to decide.


HUH???
I am not sure where you got this, but it's not true...
First: Christians have been saved by grace not by works so that no one has a reason to boast..because apart from God, Christians cannot save themselves...therefore just living a "good life" will not get you into Heaven.
Second: There is only one thing that keeps ANYONE out of Heaven...that's a lack of belief in the Christ.

Which opens up a whole new set of questions...define biblical belief...is it just a public profession of faith or does it run much deeper than that...
I personally believe that it does go much deeper than just telling people that you believe in Jesus....

[njshadow]

HUH???
I am not sure where you got this, but it's not true...
First: Christians have been saved by grace not by works so that no one has a reason to boast..because apart from God, Christians cannot save themselves...therefore just living a "good life" will not get you into Heaven.
Second: There is only one thing that keeps ANYONE out of Heaven...that's a lack of belief in the Christ.

Which opens up a whole new set of questions...define biblical belief...is it just a public profession of faith or does it run much deeper than that...
I personally believe that it does go much deeper than just telling people that you believe in Jesus....

WHOAH DUDE!!! You hit that perfect, dead on. And also, I'm not entirely sure where people are getting that idea that Jews automatically go to Heaven whether or not they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Man, this is one great thread. I'm lovin' it!

[vhalkirian666]

It also doesn't mean that the text hasn't been mis translated several times over those 2000 years to corrupt or at least skew the original meaning of the message ... because we all know Aramaic to Latin to Greek to Middle English to English with questionable credentials of the translators makes for an accurate telling of a story.

As I said in a previous post..that could be true, but I don't think so...
Christians have a spiritual aspect that leads them to the truth...

[vhalkirian666]

WHOAH DUDE!!! You hit that perfect, dead on. And also, I'm not entirely sure where people are getting that idea that Jews automatically go to Heaven whether or not they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Man, this is one great thread. I'm lovin' it!

After the time of the Christ...there was/is a split in the Jewish Community...on one side you have those who believe that Jesus was a prophet and nothing more...and on the other side you have those which believe that he was not only a prohpet, but the Son of God. As I said in a previous post the ONLY thing that could keep you out of Heaven, would be lack of belief in Christ, meaning that he was more than just a prophet.

[klitzy]

Im going to Hell....Whos coming with me?

I hear they have an endless supply of wii's

:D :D :D

[vhalkirian666]

Im going to Hell....Whos coming with me?

I hear they have an endless supply of wii's

:D :D :D

LMAO....
Wouldn't that PSP3

[tokenuser]

Im going to Hell....Whos coming with me?

I hear they have an endless supply of wii's

:D :D :DI'll be right along there with you with others that are hedging their bets. I *hear* about all the Wii's, but but don't tell you all the controllers are broken, and they only have Xbox360 games in stock.

[rabidbadger]

LMAO....
Wouldn't that PSP3


Umm. He did say it was Hell, right?

[ariastar]

Personally I believe that a person is body, soul and spirit... the body and the soul is the part of us that is "human"...the spirit part of us is the part that makes us in the image of God...He is spirit, therefore we are also spirit.
It's the spiritual part that survives after our body and soul dies here on earth.

The physical body makes us human. That is what dies. The thetan/spirit/soul is WHO we are. I am not my hand. I own it. If it's cut off, I am still WHO I am. I am not a red-headed white girl with blue eyes. My body looks that way. But who I am in what can't be seen. There is something else that makes up who we are that we can't see.

[ariastar]

are there any actual scientologists here, or are people just picking that to be jerks?

I'm one. No, I'm not kidding.

[ariastar]

Also, for those of you who need clarification from that video, here is a direct quote from wikipedia's article on Scientology.

Among these advanced teachings, one episode revealed to those who reach OT level III has been much remarked upon: the story of Xenu and his Galactic Confederacy. Xenu (sometimes Xemu) is introduced as an alien ruler of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of people to Earth in spacecraft resembling Douglas DC-8 airliners, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living. The alien souls continue to do this today, causing a variety of physical ill-effects in modern-day humans. Hubbard called these clustered spirits "Body Thetans," and the advanced levels place considerable emphasis on isolating them and neutralizing their ill effects.

Bahahahaha, Aliens and H-Bombs. That's awesome. What was so unclear there Aria? Sounds like they said it exactly right to me.

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get all those Alien's souls out of you soon enough to start moving objects around the room.

ANYONE can edit the Wiki, whether or not they know jack about a topic. The only way to correct these articles would be to remove them entirely. But then people would say that the church wanted them removed to hide the "truth." Catch-22.

[ariastar]

I think one of the reasons people think its a joke is the fact he was a science fiction writer and the rumors of the alien stuff just made it look worse. The same can be said about and religious author.

Noone knows whats real or not. Just because its written in a book or on a scroll doesn't mean its true. To each their own.

He write many things other than sci-fi, including romance novels and comic books. He used the income generated from his writing to fund his research to cut out the special interests.

[crumbles]

ANYONE can edit the Wiki, whether or not they know jack about a topic. The only way to correct these articles would be to remove them entirely. But then people would say that the church wanted them removed to hide the "truth." Catch-22.
Sorry sweets. Welcome to your religion. Maybe you didn't study it enough before you "converted."

Also, to your sweet "wikipedia is wrong!" argument, guess again.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061127-8296.html

Calm down, go purge some Alien souls. You'll be OK.

[klitzy]

Sorry sweets. Welcome to your religion. Maybe you didn't study it enough before you "converted."

Also, to your sweet "wikipedia is wrong!" argument, guess again.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061127-8296.html

Calm down, go purge some Alien souls. You'll be OK.

If you don't have anything nice to say...Don't say it at all.

[xibalba]

He write many things other than sci-fi, including romance novels and comic books. He used the income generated from his writing to fund his research to cut out the special interests.

I know, though everytime I hear someone insult the religion though thats the first thing I hear he was a sci fi writer never mention anything else he has done.

As for the alien stuff wouldn't God be considered an Alien since he resides in heaven a place not on earth. So basically Christians worship an Alien.

[njshadow]

I know, though everytime I hear someone insult the religion though thats the first thing I hear he was a sci fi writer never mention anything else he has done.

As for the alien stuff wouldn't God be considered an Alien since he resides in heaven a place not on earth. So basically Christians worship an Alien.

Actually, WE reside in HIS universe. :D

[xibalba]

Actually, WE reside in HIS universe. :D

Blasphemy I say Blasphemy!! I do not agree with that at this moment (I may later after a few drinks).

Since we don't exist we reside nowhere.

[vhalkirian666]

The physical body makes us human. That is what dies. The thetan/spirit/soul is WHO we are. I am not my hand. I own it. If it's cut off, I am still WHO I am. I am not a red-headed white girl with blue eyes. My body looks that way. But who I am in what can't be seen. There is something else that makes up who we are that we can't see.

I would agree with most of that...I personally don't believe the Scientologist point of view of where we came from and where we are going, but I do believe that the spiritual part of our makeup is what defines who we are...

[vhalkirian666]

Calm down, go purge some Alien souls. You'll be OK.

Comments like this are uncalled for....grow up....

[ariastar]

Sorry sweets. Welcome to your religion. Maybe you didn't study it enough before you "converted."

Also, to your sweet "wikipedia is wrong!" argument, guess again.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061127-8296.html

Calm down, go purge some Alien souls. You'll be OK.


This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Justanother), who will give no information on himself because he "enjoy[s] the anonymity [he] have here and [is] not anxious to "out" [him]self," seems to have made it his mission to ensure that the Wiki entries reflect his viewpoint. To this he openly admits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Justanother#How_I_edit).

"Basically, I edit to add my own perspective to the articles. Some might call that POV but I counter that we can ONLY edit from our own perspective. It is where we are, our point of view, the point we view things from. What is really the issue is that we present our perspective in a fair and verifiable fashion and do not deny others the same right."

Yet, when I attempted an edit to simply say that the topic is controversial and may contain inaccurate information, that guy took it down and sent me a message slapping my hand. The edit implied that his view point may be inaccurate. Of course he believes his viewpoint in right and all others are wrong. So these articles are literally representative of the viewpoint of one individual who will revert any edits back to reflect what he believes. This is not balanced information. It is openly biased information.

The Wiki CAN NOT BE EDITTED as long as someone with an obsession to make sure his sole viewpoint is reflected will revert everything back to how he wants it.

[ariastar]

I know, though everytime I hear someone insult the religion though thats the first thing I hear he was a sci fi writer never mention anything else he has done.

As for the alien stuff wouldn't God be considered an Alien since he resides in heaven a place not on earth. So basically Christians worship an Alien.

Sci-fi was only one of many genres. :) He was also in the miltary, among other things. :)

His sci-fi writing, I believe, if brought to life most to try to defame him and to try to create false motives.

[ariastar]

I would agree with most of that...I personally don't believe the Scientologist point of view of where we came from and where we are going, but I do believe that the spiritual part of our makeup is what defines who we are...

Many might call a spirit being reborn a reincarnation. :)

[rabidbadger]

This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Justanother), who will give no information on himself because he "enjoy[s] the anonymity [he] have here and [is] not anxious to "out" [him]self," seems to have made it his mission to ensure that the Wiki entries reflect his viewpoint. ... Wiki CAN NOT BE EDITTED as long as someone with an obsession to make sure his sole viewpoint is reflected will revert everything back to how he wants it.

Ouch. I can no longer trust wikipedia with anything but the most basic info anymore.

Still, Aria... I'm a little concerned with this new direction in your life. I don't want to spout off unfounded and un-researched cliches about scientology or any other faith, but I just worry, considering other earlier posts from you, that you might just be lonely, seeking solace, and hoping to find the family and/or community that is not there for you right now. What "nourishes the spirit" is indeed what can be found within a group of like minded folk who feed each other encouragement and hope.

Take it from me. The old fart of Rev3. A man, who as a child, was raised in what I now know was a cult. A "new" religion that basically took the fears and desires of it's downtrodden followers and exploited them for their own means. My parents didn't know they were doing this to others as they moved up the ranks, they thought they were just trying to help others. But soon they became so successful "recruiting" that recruiting became their goal. They became so "happy" doing the "lords work" that they forgot what they joined for in the first place. Their quest for solace, peace, and happiness was replaced by a drive to please the "elders" with an ever increasing "quota" of other desperate, lonely folks.

Luckily, my mother stole us kids away when certain unpleasant things occured. But my father clung to the faith and became an "elder." We lost him forever. He died a lonely man.

This story is not necessarily meant to dissuade you from your path. Just a friendly warning of the old "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" saw.

Please, trust yourself before you begin to trust those who feed on your trust in them.

You are strong. Stay that way.

Joel

[xibalba]

Sci-fi was only one of many genres. :) He was also in the miltary, among other things. :)

His sci-fi writing, I believe, if brought to life most to try to defame him and to try to create false motives.

Also had dealings with Aleister Crowley who considered himself the antichrist, though some say he was just infiltrating the group for different reasons. In a taped lecture or something he called Crowley a very good friend. But unless you were there who knows what the truth was.

[ariastar]

Ouch. I can no longer trust wikipedia with anything but the most basic info anymore.

Still, Aria... I'm a little concerned with this new direction in your life. I don't want to spout off unfounded and un-researched cliches about scientology or any other faith, but I just worry, considering other earlier posts from you, that you might just be lonely, seeking solace, and hoping to find the family and/or community that is not there for you right now. What "nourishes the spirit" is indeed what can be found within a group of like minded folk who feed each other encouragement and hope.

Take it from me. The old fart of Rev3. A man, who as a child, was raised in what I now know was a cult. A "new" religion that basically took the fears and desires of it's downtrodden followers and exploited them for their own means. My parents didn't know they were doing this to others as they moved up the ranks, they thought they were just trying to help others. But soon they became so successful "recruiting" that recruiting became their goal. They became so "happy" doing the "lords work" that they forgot what they joined for in the first place. Their quest for solace, peace, and happiness was replaced by a drive to please the "elders" with an ever increasing "quota" of other desperate, lonely folks.

Luckily, my mother stole us kids away when certain unpleasant things occured. But my father clung to the faith and became an "elder." We lost him forever. He died a lonely man.

This story is not necessarily meant to dissuade you from your path. Just a friendly warning of the old "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" saw.

Please, trust yourself before you begin to trust those who feed on your trust in them.

You are strong. Stay that way.

Joel

Joel, I appreciate your concern, but I have been researching this for a couple years, starting back when life was about as ideal as I could dream. 2,800sqft coastal house, fiancé I loved, a girl I loved (still do) as my own daughter who called me her "favorite mommy," frequent vacations, everything. I was interested then, and have stayed interested until deciding to go in.

If I may ask, what about Scientology convinces you it's a cult?

~Aria

[phatlip12]

If I may ask, what about Scientology convinces you it's a cult?

~Aria

I get kind of a cult feel from it as well. I may be uninformed but it seems like Scientologists believe in some things that are pretty far out there. Im not sure if this is a part of Scientology or not (this may be a bad example) but Tom Cruise eating the placenta after his kid was born, having to give birth to a child in complete silence. Does Scientology even have a god? What do they believe happens to us when we die? Wasn't it created by a SCIENCE FICTION author (again, forgive my ignornace as I am not very informed)? What makes what he says so true? The church of Scientology got a website shutdown that exprssed negative opinion towards them.

Actually, can you start by telling me what Scientology is and what you believe in. Im still confused. Then I will go from there before I jump to conclusions. LOL

[ariastar]

I get kind of a cult feel from it as well. I may be uninformed but it seems like Scientologists believe in some things that are pretty far out there. Im not sure if this is a part of Scientology or not (this may be a bad example) but Tom Cruise eating the placenta after his kid was born, having to give birth to a child in complete silence. Does Scientology even have a god? What do they believe happens to us when we die? Wasn't it created by a SCIENCE FICTION author (again, forgive my ignornace as I am not very informed)? What makes what he says so true? The church of Scientology got a website shutdown that exprssed negative opinion towards them.

Actually, can you start by telling me what Scientology is and what you believe in. Im still confused. Then I will go from there before I jump to conclusions. LOL

I never heard of Tom Cruise eating the placenta, though I believe that is done in some cultures. A silent birth is a birth where no one talks, though the mother can make whatever noise she wants. Being born, going from a warm, cramped, quieter (though not silent) place, to a cold, dry, wide open loud space is scary enough without people all around yelling and terrifying you more. So a silent birth is to help make the transition from womb to born world easier for the baby.

Scientology deals with the spirit, the thetan (thay-tun, not thee-tun). Your thetan is WHO you are. We don't declare the existence nor non-existence of a god or gods. My friend Max is a Jewish Scientologist, and others are Christian Scientologists, whatever. This is fine. We do NOT require converting from any religion. If you are Catholic, you can still be a Scientologist. If you are agnostic, like me, you can still be a Scientologist.

Hubbard was indeed a writer, among other things. He wrote romances as well as science fiction, and detective stories, comic books, even a few screenplays, such as "The Secrets of Treasure Island" back in 1938. The income and royalties from his writing he used to fund his own research to prevent the need for outside finding, which would likely bring special interests into play.

Scientology is the study of the thetan and it's relation to itself, others, and the world. We are out thetans. Our thetans are who we are. Immortal spiritual beings. We may choose to be reborn, or to go on somewhere else.

[vhalkirian666]

If I may ask, what about Scientology convinces you it's a cult?

Check out this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLZJBdvqAv8
or this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y

Like others have posted...why does Scientology have so many secrets? Some reports say that the reason Nicole Kidman divorced Tom Cruise was his indoctrination of their children into Scientology...

So Aria is it true that Scientology has differing ranks or levels within and some say that Tom Cruise and John Travolta are of the highest rank or order within...They take part in some of the rituals and things that most members of Scientology are not part of...

Compared to say Christianity which is open to all and is meant to be spread freely to all people...

Many might call a spirit being reborn a reincarnation.
Personally I think you only have one spirit and one body...In the Christian faith people have been raised from the dead...never reborn into a new body.

[tokenuser]

Compared to say Christianity which is open to all and is meant to be spread freely to all people...Christianity is free and open?? Which "sect" of Christianity are you talking about?

Baptist?
Episcopal/Anglican?
Protestant?

They are all fairly innocuos ... but then you get the Catholics, and the "societal Catholics" such as Opus Dei, and the Masons - each of which are "secret" societies, with many, many levels of "enlightenment".

Religion is free? What about tithing? Teneths?

Noone could doubt any of them are Christian faiths, but they are not open or spread freely to all people.

[vhalkirian666]

Christianity is free and open?? Which "sect" of Christianity are you talking about?

Baptist?
Episcopal/Anglican?
Protestant?

They are all fairly innocuos ... but then you get the Catholics, and the "societal Catholics" such as Opus Dei, and the Masons - each of which are "secret" societies, with many, many levels of "enlightenment".

Religion is free? What about tithing? Teneths?

Noone could doubt any of them are Christian faiths, but they are not open or spread freely to all people.

Christianity that was preached by Jesus and the 12 apostles...There are a lot of "christian" churches out there that masquerade as biblical....but are not.
Don't confuse what was biblically preached and what you see out in the world today.

[tokenuser]

Christianity that was preached by Jesus and the 12 apostles...There are a lot of "christian" churches out there that masquerade as biblical....but are not.
Don't confuse what was biblically preached and what you see out in the world today.So, what marks the difference between Christianity and the group based practioners of a faith centered around a common belief structure following the teachings of Jesus Christ as communicated in the Bible and taught in a church (Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, Episcopal/Anglican/Lutheran, etc).

Or are the "old" Christain faiths outdated, and irrelevant in the light of new "born again Christian" teachings??

[phatlip12]

Check out this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLZJBdvqAv8
or this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y

Like others have posted...why does Scientology have so many secrets? Some reports say that the reason Nicole Kidman divorced Tom Cruise was his indoctrination of their children into Scientology...

So Aria is it true that Scientology has differing ranks or levels within and some say that Tom Cruise and John Travolta are of the highest rank or order within...They take part in some of the rituals and things that most members of Scientology are not part of...

Compared to say Christianity which is open to all and is meant to be spread freely to all people...


Personally I think you only have one spirit and one body...In the Christian faith people have been raised from the dead...never reborn into a new body.

Its a cult

[ariastar]

Check out this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLZJBdvqAv8
or this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y

What these vids show are non-Scientologists behaving in a way that would make many uncomfortable. If someone were standing outside your home with a video camera on your home, you'd be uncomfortable. If you were part of a religion that comes under frequent attacks, you bet you'd want them to stop. There was no reason for the man in the first video to sit there like that unless he was looking for something to use against Scientology. He even admitted to calling the guy a name the day before, so this wasn't his first time doing this.

In the second video, anyone can apply for a permit to temporarily close off a street or a park for an event. Part of it being "public property" is that members of the public have the right to occasional exclusive use. Again, the man with the camera was clearly looking for something he could use to defame the church. Scientologists are not specimens to observe, like spiders under glass.


Like others have posted...why does Scientology have so many secrets? Some reports say that the reason Nicole Kidman divorced Tom Cruise was his indoctrination of their children into Scientology...

Some reports to day that about Cruise and Kidman. However, the official reason was "irreconcilable differences." It may, or it may not, be true that a point of contention for them was the religion in which to raise the children. But this happens with couples who are Hindu and Jewish, Christian and Athiest, etc.. If it were a sticking point with them, I doubt it was the sole factor. If Nicole wanted the children raised, say, Christian, they could also be raised Scientologist without conflict. Regardless of who has more custody, both of them still have the same and equal right to raise the children in his or her faith when the children are with that particular parent. Divorcing Tom simply to keep the children away from Scientology would be foolish as he would be legally free to raise the children in Scientology when he has them. It's against federal law for a court to order than a child can not be raised in a certain religion, so that is no argument.

So Aria is it true that Scientology has differing ranks or levels within and some say that Tom Cruise and John Travolta are of the highest rank or order within...They take part in some of the rituals and things that most members of Scientology are not part of...

The first part, yes. One can work his or her way up the bridge. This is NOT by giving money, but by learning to lose the reactive mind, the part of the mind, similar to a subconscious, that holds us back and causes us to have negative reactions. A child molested by someone named "Scott" may have a negative physical reaction upon hearing that name. Losing the reactive mind removes the negative effect of this incident.

The Catholic church is a Christian church. In the congregation, members can work their way up to senior positions over other congregation members. In the clergy, men of the collar work their ways from priest of a local church on up. I'm sure you've heard of bishops, cardinals, etc.. I have little doubt that an element of money is involved. Rarely are these higher clergy members from poor churches.

Cruise and Travolta are not among the highest in the "order." I heard this rumor as well once, but it's simply rumor, nothing more.

If there are "rituals and things that most members of Scientology are not part of," then I am not aware of them. As in any religion, it's always possible, but we can't know yes or no because it'd be secret. I have no doubt that most, religions have ceremonies reserved for the highest that one must earn his or her way into.


Compared to say Christianity which is open to all and is meant to be spread freely to all people...

Mormons have ceremonies in the Temple that is sacred to them and they do not speak of it to others who have not earned their way in. This does not invalidate them just because there is something not freely known.

Christianity is not free. Countless churches press people into tithing at least 10%, and many parishioners do it because they fear they will go to hell if they don't. Scientology isn't like this. Any member of the public can walk into one of the centers and buy any of the books or materials you'd like. I'd encourage you to! Not because it would mean money for Scientology, but because it would mean opening your eyes to what is really taught. The books you can buy are the exact same books we buy and study. In a Christian church, you must buy your bible. In Mormonism, you buy your bible and your Book of Mormon. In other religions, you have books to buy as well.


Personally I think you only have one spirit and one body...In the Christian faith people have been raised from the dead...never reborn into a new body.

We don't know if people in the bible were or were not ever reborn into new bodies. In the Christian faith, it's mostly taught that the soul goes to heaven or hell. Not all churches say that this is the ONLY possibility. It's been debated whether or not there is even only one god. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" sound like there may be, but that there is one head-honcho.

But you are free to believe as you wish as long as you don't harass me for my beliefs. If you have any questions, please do feel free to ask, but don't antagonize. If I don't know an answer, I will try to find out. It will benefit both of us.

[ariastar]

Christianity is free and open?? Which "sect" of Christianity are you talking about?

Baptist?
Episcopal/Anglican?
Protestant?

They are all fairly innocuos ... but then you get the Catholics, and the "societal Catholics" such as Opus Dei, and the Masons - each of which are "secret" societies, with many, many levels of "enlightenment".

Religion is free? What about tithing? Teneths?

Noone could doubt any of them are Christian faiths, but they are not open or spread freely to all people.

Well said.

[njshadow]

Whoah, whoah, whoah. Christianity is indeed free. That is, those who don't distort it. And when it comes to tithing, it is totally up to you. You don't have to give. Yes, I know it says to give 10% of your earnings to the church, but that is to better the church (Renovations, Upgrades, etc.) and pay the bills. So with that, you are not required to give. For Christians, God has done so much for us and the least we could do is give a little to help promote the spreading of his word.

[masherscf]

Well said.

The Episcopal church that I attend on Christmas and Easter has never required any monetary donation and does not require any commitment to worship there. The church has no property other than the Church itself and the rectory and maintains no cash endowment. I'm not even sure how they pay the part-time rector.

[njshadow]

Oh yeah, and when it comes to worshipping God/Jesus Christ/The Holy Spirit "it's not a religion, it's a relationship".(with God)

[treeninja]

Christian - Catholic. Although I don't hate Protestants...

[masherscf]

Christian - Catholic. Although I don't hate Protestants...

The only evil in religion is when people use it to try and feel superior to others. If that's what you're using religion for, I feel sad for you.

[njshadow]

Yeah, that's true. Waaaay to many people do that and it's horrible. The Bible says that "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" which is why Jesus died and took our punishment. The ultimate sacrifice. All we have to do is accept Him as our Lord and Saviour and we are granted everlasting life in Heaven.

[treeninja]

The only evil in religion is when people use it to try and feel superior to others. If that's what you're using religion for, I feel sad for you.

When did I say that? Most Catholics do hate the Protestants because they feel the Protestants split the Christian religion. I don't hate the Protestants no more than I hate any other form of religion.

I don't feel any better or worse having a religion that someone else has or doesn't have. I'm not the type of person to judge based on religion, because quite frankly... There's plenty of reasons to hate people individually than with a sweeping bias of an entire demographic of people.

Don't put your words in my mouth, and I won't put my foot in your mouth.

[ariastar]

Ninja was clarifying that he doesn't hate Protestants as some Catholics factually do.

With Scientology, you don't have to give either. We have the same overhead. The buildings, utilities, etc.. Even the highest paid worker in Scientology, the Chairman of the Board, makes a mere pittance. There is no rectory house that a lot of clergy members of other religions get. I said it before and I will say it again: In Christianity and all other religions, you buy your books and learning materials. In Scientology, it's the same way. In Scientology, if you give, you receive back. I'm not sure if there even is a way to just give money without receiving in something. There are certainly no boxes set up to go drop money into, and no plate passing from hand to hand to put more into. One belief is that, if you give something, you should directly receive something for it in return.

[njshadow]

Yeah, but when you give expecting to get something in return, your not really giving, it's more like your buying something. That's the thing, Christians give out of worship/thankfulness for what God has done for them.

[ariastar]

Yeah, but when you give expecting to get something in return, your not really giving, it's more like your buying something. That's the thing, Christians give out of worship/thankfulness for what God has done for them.

It's to balance the inflow and outflow, to prevent anyone from being solely a giver or solely a taker. It's about balance. A lot of Christians "give" out of a sense of obligation or because they think they have to to get into heaven. A better way to show thankfulness would be to volunteer some time, would it not? What you say sounds like god gives with the expectation of receiving money as payment, and that Christians are giving to settle a debt.

[njshadow]

It's to balance the inflow and outflow, to prevent anyone from being solely a giver or solely a taker. It's about balance. A lot of Christians "give" out of a sense of obligation or because they think they have to to get into heaven. A better way to show thankfulness would be to volunteer some time, would it not? What you say sounds like god gives with the expectation of receiving money as payment, and that Christians are giving to settle a debt.

No no no no no no. That's not what I'm saying at all. I believe I said in a previous post we give to further support the spreading of God's word. Because it usually takes money to feed missionaries, help with church activities, etc. Of course volunteering and stuff like that is great and more people should do it. For awhile I too went soul winning/witnessing. I talk to my friends almost every day in school about these things. YES we give for worship/because we're thankful/to spread God's word. In no way do we give out of guilt, to settle a debt, or to buy our way into Heaven. As I've said in previous posts, the only way to get to Heaven is to acknowledge your a sinner, repent of your sins, and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

Also, if you mean by volunteering, helping and working around the church. Yes, I've helped with those things too.

[phatlip12]

A lot of Christians "give" out of a sense of obligation or because they think they have to to get into heaven. A better way to show thankfulness would be to volunteer some time, would it not? What you say sounds like god gives with the expectation of receiving money as payment, and that Christians are giving to settle a debt.

I disagree, a Christian would know that isn't true and the only way to get into heaven is to ask to be forgiven for you sins and accept Jesus into your heart. Donations are given to benefit your place of worship. There are no obligations, if you want to give money then you can, if you don't then its no big deal.

[ariastar]

Of course the bible says that that is the way into heaven. But not all clergy leave it at that. There is often pressure to give, no doubt about that. A big pressure comes when the collection plate is passed and people watch to see what you do. At some churches they don't care. At others, they do.

I'm not knocking the Christian faith, nor those who practice it, just the individual churches I have witnessed doing this.

[masherscf]

I'm not knocking the Christian faith, nor those who practice it, just the individual churches I have witnessed doing this.

Many "churches" bilk millions out of the faithful. There are also examples both historical and contemporary that show "churches" using the faithful to promote an unrelated political agenda. Faith can be abused. It's not just Christ worshipers who do it. Muslims, Jews, those guys in blue tennis shoes. In exploring your faith, be aware that people are going to try and use your quest for meaning as a way to take advantage of you.

[phatlip12]

Many "churches" bilk millions out of the faithful. There are also examples both historical and contemporary that show "churches" using the faithful to promote an unrelated political agenda. Faith can be abused. It's not just Christ worshipers who do it. Muslims, Jews, those guys in blue tennis shoes. In exploring your faith, be aware that people are going to try and use your quest for meaning as a way to take advantage of you.

Like this guy for example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiNpcRdofz4

This guys "healing" puts me in tears from laughing so hard sometimes.

[xibalba]

Wouldn't all religions be considered cults by definition?

Religion is the source of all the worlds problems!

[vhalkirian666]

Religion is the source of all the worlds problems!

Very true....

[xibalba]

Very true....

As long as their is religion peace will be impossible. If people want a peaceful world only one way to get it eradicate all life on earth. :)

[ariastar]

The problem isn't religion itself, but the people who are using it to justify to others their reasons for committing crimes and killing people.

[phatlip12]

More Scientology cult evidence

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-799954787514590907

[ariastar]

It's not playing. Just tries loading until it times out.

[nation]

Indeed.

Anyone see borat when he found jesus.. lol

[masherscf]

Religion is the source of all the worlds problems!

Misapplied religion causes many problems, but it is by no means the cause of ALL of them. The biggest fracas of the last century was WWII. It was caused by ultra-nationalist feeling.

World problems are caused by greed and by people using religious, ethnic and national, gender and life-style identities to trump people's identity as humans first. This allows people to devalue the lives of those with a different identity. It allows them to rationalize the oppression and murder of those different. This is why unarmed African Americans men get shot by police, why women get genitally mutilated, why innocent Arab families get bombed, why airplanes get flown into skyscrapers and why Jews get gassed by the millions.

Religion is also the cause of much that is good.