Microsoft's Mojave 'Experiment' [Archive]

rsk_taker

07-31-2008, 03:27 AM

Heard of Microsoft's new desperate ad scampaign?

If you've not heard of this, I'll give you a brief description but you should google it. What it basically is, is an experiment where Microsoft took a bunch of regular XP users into a controlled environment and let them tryout the greatness of their new OS, called Mojave. Most users thought they liked it and would want it and at the end they revealed it was just Windows Vista...trying to raise awareness of the alleged 'goodness' of this new OS and that all the bad press its had in the last year is unfounded...

what this marketing plan actually does:
Makes Microsoft look even worse than they already do. This entire experiment is flawed in every way and it doesn't even allow the users to see ANY of the things people actually hate about Vista...not too mention the types of PCs these are being demonstrated on, kinda ignore the system resources issue to there..

I can go on for hours about all the little details of what a farce this is, in my opinion.

What do you guys think of Vista, XP, and this Marketing scheme?

dolson

07-31-2008, 05:08 AM

This is the first I heard of it, but it honestly isn't surprising. They're the same company that tells the world their OS is better than Linux. Which it's not. ;)

Disclaimer: I haven't touched Vista, and haven't run Windows on any of my PCs for over 6 years, so my opinion might be a little biased.

comhcinc

07-31-2008, 05:21 AM

you are so off base i laugh so loud i woke my wife up. here are the facts.

microsoft invited a group of normal computer users (not just xp, also mac linux and pre xp you can get the facts here (http://www.mojaveexperiment.com/facts/) ) who had never used vista and refused to because of all the bad press that vista has gotten.

they are told they are trying some of a new os' features and then asked to rate it. most of them gave a postive response. then they are revealed to be using vista.

the point of the campagin is to show maybe you shouldn't listen to all the haters (like rsk taker) and try it out for yourself.

oh speaking of the hater. he seems like he has not took the time to visit the site (http://www.mojaveexperiment.com/) and see what people have to say. in the main clip video you see someone being shown the UAC (which everyone dislikes or everyone on the internet hates, it's great for my mom)

mr rst taker hater also failed to take the time to look at the pc spec ( a hp laptop) otherwise he would know it is a low end model.

so please taker hater, tell me all the little details of what a farce this is.

darknessgp

07-31-2008, 05:24 AM

Heard of Microsoft's new desperate ad scampaign?
...

huh? Desperate? Scampaign? Clearly you are being one sided. Thank you for keeping an open mind, and not even linking to the experiment.

As for the actual campaign, it's targeting people who have heard FUD about Vista, but never actually tried it themselves. Do they use a controlled environment, obviously, but even then you obviously haven't seen the specs of the machines they used. Though I think everyone knows that with almost every product, it will function slightly differently on different hardware, in different locations, etc... but that's not the point. The point was to combat FUD that was completely wrong. It's not about proving the product is good, it's about proving that what some people have heard about it is false. Oh and "it doesn't even allow the users to see ANY of the things people actually hate about Vista" They said that the Vista installs where all standard installs. People got to see the UAC at work (one guy even comments about how he likes UAC), if they didn't see something that other users hated, it's either because they don't exist or that users is just picky (i.e. learning new placement of things)

Honestly, I'm glad Microsoft is doing this. I really wish more companies would jump on this type of thing, as it seems there are a bunch of sheep that believe anything they read.

dolson, I have yet to see a recent ad for Windows talking about it in relation to any other OS. Mac ads on the other hand...

tsmith15

07-31-2008, 05:30 AM

I haven't had a single problem with Vista, as a very casual user on my laptop. I can use the irc, browse all websites I frequent, watch tv shows, podcasts, and movies, and play video games on Steam without any problems.

jasonpoon

07-31-2008, 05:39 AM

Isn't the whole "experiment" fake? I think they just find some people and make them look like testers.

Did they change the Vista interface in the test?
Or these people never see a screenshot of Vista?

comhcinc

07-31-2008, 05:41 AM

nope it isn't fake.

it is just a standard install of vista ( i am sure with sp1 but at this point that is standard)

remember these are not technophiles just normal people who are not all techie.

dolson

07-31-2008, 07:19 AM

fashiondr

07-31-2008, 07:46 AM

Wow, Microsoft is marketing a product they made? What a shocker!

I really don't see this as being anything close to a 'scam' or 'desperate'. Microsoft cops a lot of crap, but it's not like they are forcing anyone to use their products, you don't like it, there are plenty of other options out there. At least they aren't being pretentious douchebags with their advertising like Apple does. I've got nothing against Macs, they're great at what they do, they just don't do very much. And as for Linux, well I guess you get what you pay for.

One thing PC users can do that Mac users can't... (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant)

kilroyperrywinkle

07-31-2008, 09:06 AM

I've been running it for over a month now...

I was scared when I bought my new pc that Id have to take Vista off and put my pirated version of XP on it.

But... so far I've had less problems with my legit copy of Vista than I had with the pirated version of XP. The only headache was its networking stuff is sooooo overly protective that I had hard time getting it reigned in... but no crashes, or anything. I do not understand why they left out Remote Desktop on the Home Premium editions though. I liked being able to log into my desktop from anywhere, but VNC works well enough.

All in all its a great OS... and runs smooth.

I've tried OSX before for about the same amount of time and I had more trouble with it than Vista. Most of my problems were all UI problems headaches and clunky feeling programs. But to be honest I blame me more than the OS. After so long using a windows based PC, I couldn't get used to the UI differences... everything felt out of place and I really did feel like I had no real control on where stuff was and how it acted. I could surf the web just fine, and all the normal stuff, but never felt like the OS was a tool I was using, I felt like it was too resource intensive...

I like knowing exactly whats running on my system, and I always felt like OSX was doing what it wanted - not what I wanted.

But that was probably just me not being familiar with it...

(Oh and if you haven't used a product but feel like you can form an opinion about it, please just keep your mouth shut... being a bigot isn't a good stance for any discussion.)

iccanui

07-31-2008, 10:15 AM

What do you guys think of Vista, XP, and this Marketing scheme?

I think folgers instant coffee did a better job in 1985. -.-

The mac ads are funny and entertaining. This was either staged or a example of human stupidity. Lose lose either way.

comhcinc

07-31-2008, 01:12 PM

Non-techies are not good judges. Ex.: my sisters ran Linux for a few years, until their hard drive died. They had no problems using it.
non-techies are the best judges. you want the largest audience for you product which means you want the easy of use low. isn't that half of apple's appeal? i can't tell you how many people tell me their mac ''just work''.
Non-techies aren't complaining about Vista's issues, so maybe this experimentthing is flawed anyhow.
they are not complaining but they are buying the bs about vista. also if you pay attention to the "experts" most of them now praise vista ( like paul thurrott) or at the very least don't complain very loudly.

I've been running it for over a month now...

I was scared when I bought my new pc that Id have to take Vista off and put my pirated version of XP on it.

see that is exactly what they are trying to fight. i see this not so much as "hey look how much better vista is to everything else" and more of " vista is really that bad? really? are you sure?"

This was either staged or a example of human stupidity. Lose lose either way.

why would it be staged? and are you calling normal people who listen to all the negative things being said about vista stupid?

darknessgp

07-31-2008, 02:24 PM

darknessgp, I don't even have TV service, so I wouldn't know if there are TV ads about it. However, it wasn't that long ago that I saw web ads dissing Linux. Maybe a year ago, or however long ago they bought SUSE (er, partnered, whatever), they stopped... I don't know, I use Adblock now. In any case, I doubt a single soul from Microsoft Corp. would tell you that Linux is better than their OS.

ahh, that's cool. I didn't know if you ahad actually seen something or not. As for anyone at Microsoft saying Linux is better. Of course not. You also won't have anyone at Apple say any OS is better than OSX. Or anyone working on a linux distro say another OS is better, etc... That's just how it is.

Anyway, I don't notice much of a difference between each release of Windows to begin with. Yes, things are rearranged, things look uglier (or prettier if you are a big fan of Crayola), etc. but it's basically consistently the same thing repackaged and tweaked to use more system resources.

The fact that you say that means you haven't tried it and aren't open to trying it. Also, maybe you haven't seen screen shots of Vista? (your crayola comment?) Which is fine if that's how you want to do, but please don't act like you know about it. "repackaged and tweaked"? Hardly. Hell Linux is more like that with it's billions of distros.

Again, that's my biased opinion, and for all I know, Vista is completely different. But I doubt it. Non-techies are not good judges. Ex.: my sisters ran Linux for a few years, until their hard drive died. They had no problems using it. Non-techies aren't complaining about Vista's issues, so maybe this experimentthing is flawed anyhow.

Non-techies are the best judge. They are the ones not buying the product because they only know what FUD some techies have spewed about it. The experiment was to give people who have not used the product, but heard how bad it was a chance at trying it without preconceived notions. The point was that they go into trying it out with thinking "This is going to be horrible" or "This is going to be fantastic." Because if they went in with either it is going to skew their opinion.

As for everyone commenting on the hardware or software used... http://www.mojaveexperiment.com/facts/ tells that they used the HP Pavilion DV 2000 with 2GB of RAM (what I would call a standard new laptop). It is my understanding that they used what the laptop would come with. Nothing changed. Also, they polled people before testing about Vista and polled them after about Mojave... that paints a very interesting picture.

rsk_taker

07-31-2008, 03:03 PM

wait, who said they weren't FORCING people to buy their products?

You been to the dell site recently? They don't even allow them to sell XP machines anymore, and they say they wont support XP after the deadline (i think this summer actually). Every PC manufacturer who had deals with MSoft for their OS are now forced to offer only that. Dell has 2-3 specific machines you can still get XP on, and there were some deals where you could get XP pre-installed and an upgrade disc to Vista.

I have machines with Vista and XP, and vista is a nightmare. It also is very desperate campaign, if you've heard any of the news, reviews, blog entries about Vista every since it came out. This is their response to try to get a positive image for the OS since they've not marketed it well at all. I'm sure its also trying to address the crazy Mac vs. PC ads which have been running successfully for a while (its actually not even against PC, its just against Vista).

Yea, I really friggin don't like Vista and what Microsoft did this generation with their OS. But I'm not a hater for the sake of hating, this is from first-hand experience. It's no longer just an OS to run my software and APPs, now its a giant App itself which destroys computer resources very unneedly and inefficiently. I like alot of the new features and visuals it offers, but to me, I don't see what this is better than the current version of XP. And you're very wrong if you think I'm in the minority, alot of business are having a helluva time with this OS as well.

I also think all the problems with Vista in the last year is one of the main drivers of the massive increase in Mac sales in the time period, alot of people are getting sick of Microsoft. I'm not a Mac user myself, but I can see reasoning.

wideawakewesley

07-31-2008, 03:05 PM

It's a great move by Microsoft and it's also very true, Vista is a very good operating system. Sure it might not be as user-friendly as an Apple OS, but that doesn't make it bad.

Wes

comhcinc

07-31-2008, 03:34 PM

wait, who said they weren't FORCING people to buy their products?i do. i have never had a mircosoft agent come to my door and demand i buy a product from them

You been to the dell site recently? They don't even allow them to sell XP machines anymore, and they say they wont support XP after the deadline (i think this summer actually). Every PC manufacturer who had deals with MSoft for their OS are now forced to offer only that. Dell has 2-3 specific machines you can still get XP on, and there were some deals where you could get XP pre-installed and an upgrade disc to Vista. xp is going to be supported for years and years, just like 2000 was.

you really need to get your facts straight.

I have machines with Vista and XP, and vista is a nightmare. It also is very desperate campaign, if you've heard any of the news, reviews, blog entries about Vista every since it came out. This is their response to try to get a positive image for the OS since they've not marketed it well at all. I'm sure its also trying to address the crazy Mac vs. PC ads which have been running successfully for a while (its actually not even against PC, its just against Vista).
how is it a "very desperate campaign"? all they are doing is proving that haters like yourself don't know what they are talking about and that maybe the general public shouldn't listen to you and try it out for themselves. also most of the important non hater blogs like vista. just check out Paul Thurrott (http://www.winsupersite.com/), the man loves some vista

Yea, I really friggin don't like Vista and what Microsoft did this generation with their OS. But I'm not a hater for the sake of hating, this is from first-hand experience. It's no longer just an OS to run my software and APPs, now its a giant App itself which destroys computer resources very unneedly and inefficiently. I like alot of the new features and visuals it offers, but to me, I don't see what this is better than the current version of XP. And you're very wrong if you think I'm in the minority, alot of business are having a helluva time with this OS as well.
you like it but you don't. you are just a hater. as for businesses, well they are always last to upgrade. i know alot of companies still running windows 2000

I also think all the problems with Vista in the last year is one of the main drivers of the massive increase in Mac sales in the time period, alot of people are getting sick of Microsoft. I'm not a Mac user myself, but I can see reasoning.

there is no problem with vista other than you haters.

tokenuser

07-31-2008, 03:43 PM

xp is going to be supported for years and years, just like 2000 was.While I agree with pretty much everything you have said here, I will point out one slight flaw. Support != available for sale.

Microsoft are stopping the retail sale of XP, but that does not mean that they wont be supporting it for many years to come. (did I get all those double negations right?)

The Mojave Experiment is interesting. It really shows the impact that FUD has had on the sale of Vista. Vista is a great OS. Very solid. Turn off the Aero eyecandy, and it is pretty responsive as well.

But, like all products you should never buy the 1.0 version of anything. Even with all the hotfixes MS released, there were some uinderlying things that irritated me about Vista ... but SP1 addressed those issues. I would have had a hard time recommending Vista to anyone pre SP1, but now I'd have no qualms whatsoever.

darknessgp

07-31-2008, 03:47 PM

...
I have machines with Vista and XP, and vista is a nightmare. It also is very desperate campaign, if you've heard any of the news, reviews, blog entries about Vista every since it came out. This is their response to try to get a positive image for the OS since they've not marketed it well at all. I'm sure its also trying to address the crazy Mac vs. PC ads which have been running successfully for a while (its actually not even against PC, its just against Vista).
...

Odd, you see it as a desperate attempt to get a positive image. I saw it as a way to inform people that they shouldn't believe everything they see on the internet. The point of this experiment is for users to actually try the OS rather than listen to some reviewer/blogger. Since you brought it up, what do you think of the Mac vs PC ads? Talk about trying to get a positive image out there.

As for the XP support/sale stuff. Why should they? Did they sell Windows 3.1 after Win 95 had been out almost 2 years? what about 95 and 98? 98 and 2000? Do you see a trend?

dolson

07-31-2008, 04:02 PM

And as for Linux, well I guess you get what you pay for.

Yup. Freedom is free. Very insightful!

Or anyone working on a linux distro say another OS is better, etc...

Disagree. Not long ago, I was a packager and maintainer for over a dozen pieces of software on Ubuntu Linux. I could then, and would now give you several instances where Windows is better than Linux. It really depends on the person using the system. For me, I have no need of Windows. I don't game on my PC. I am a programmer. Windows is just insufficient and feels very restrictive for someone who's been running Linux for around 10 years, 6 of those exclusively. I'm the first one to tell you that Linux isn't for everyone. But it is for me.

The fact that you say that means you haven't tried it and aren't open to trying it. Also, maybe you haven't seen screen shots of Vista? (your crayola comment?) Which is fine if that's how you want to do, but please don't act like you know about it. "repackaged and tweaked"? Hardly. Hell Linux is more like that with it's billions of distros.

Yes, I have seen Vista. I have not used it myself. It doesn't look good to me. It's like they're just putting makeup on a used-up whore. Linux distros are free, so that "repackaging and tweaking" costs me nothing... And that was my point. You keep paying for Windows, and you get very little new. And anyways, when I made that comment, I was referring to the previous versions of Windows (95 - 98 - 98SE - 2K - ME - XP), which I *have* used, in fact. And they are all basically the same, as I said, with minor changes and performance hits. It's really ok if you like Windows and are happy with the insignificant upgrades they keep selling you. But that's not my thing.

As for the comments about non-techies being good judges, well, as I said, I gave my sisters a PC with debian (that's a Linux distro) installed, and they used it with no problems until a hardware failure. My sisters are not tech-savvy at all... So should I publish a study that Linux is not as bad as you all think it is?

comhcinc

07-31-2008, 04:10 PM

As for the comments about non-techies being good judges, well, as I said, I gave my sisters a PC with debian (that's a Linux distro) installed, and they used it with no problems until a hardware failure. My sisters are not tech-savvy at all... So should I publish a study that Linux is not as bad as you all think it is?

yeah i happen to agree that linux gets a bad rap about how hard it is to use based on infomation from long long ago. 5 years ago i wouldn't recommend linux to any one unless they were a programmer. now i tell people all the time that it's fine os that they should try. you can't beat the price.

vista and linux, in the same boat.

tokenuser

07-31-2008, 04:19 PM

Yes, I have seen Vista. I have not used it myself. It doesn't look good to me. It's like they're just putting makeup on a used-up whore.See, that is one of the FUD commetns that people hear ... and its spread because people like eyecandy, so they turn on every fade in/out popup window glass effect that they can. And thats what you see. You only see the painted whore ... you dont see the person underneath.

nshady

07-31-2008, 04:39 PM

I run Vista on my home PC.

It's a perfectly capable OS. It does basically everything the average consumer wants. It does not, however, do anything radically new or original, and in a few areas it seems questionable whether it is in fact to superior to its predecessor. The blogosphere is vocal in its dislike of Vista, even though for the most part everyone would get by just fine if they upgraded.

Vista undoubtably has an image problem, but even if this experiment is 100% real, it feels fake, which is just as big a problem. You can't see it as anything but a marketing campaign. They really ought to be in the middle of shopping centres with computers so that people can actually try it first hand, not watching a very carefully edited video production.

Personally, I prefer the Mac OS 10.4 running on my PowerBook G4, but I've always liked the mac aesthetic a bit more.

comhcinc

07-31-2008, 04:45 PM

Vista undoubtably has an image problem, but even if this experiment is 100% real, it feels fake, which is just as big a problem.
it doesn't feel fake to me. why does it feel fake to you?

You can't see it as anything but a marketing campaign.

there is a very good reason for that................Cause, that's what it is! extra points for stating the obvious.

http://www.crashonmyhead.com/captain_obvious.jpg

sorry i couldn't help myself

nshady

07-31-2008, 04:57 PM

comhcinc

07-31-2008, 05:11 PM

why do you not understand that it is advertising?

darknessgp

07-31-2008, 06:07 PM

The idea is that these are ordinary people "just like you and me" who are discovering that Vista is actually alright. However, I couldn't help but wonder whether these reactions were legitimate. If that question arises for other people exposed to the campaign, then odds are they will be unable to relate to these "ordinary people" because they perceive it to be just advertising rhetoric.

I have no information on whether the experiment was real or not, but it suffers from the problem that its format - the concept of an experiment - is a cliché that we (or at least I) interpret today as just another tool in an advertiser's arsenal.

Does it matter if it is real or not? I mean honestly, if you were someone who had never used or seen Vista. Wouldn't this make you stop and think, "Hey maybe I should check it out and see if it is really crap?" I mean really, I can't see anyone seeing this campaign and thinking "Oh look Vista is soo great!" to me, I can see people going "Hey, maybe that guy on the internet is wrong." The point is that users shouldn't just believe what they are told, which IMO contradicts what you think this marketing attempt is trying to do.

ryudo

07-31-2008, 07:31 PM

Sorta reeks of the pepsi taste test ads from the 80's.

dolson

07-31-2008, 07:55 PM

See, that is one of the FUD commetns that people hear ... and its spread because people like eyecandy, so they turn on every fade in/out popup window glass effect that they can. And thats what you see. You only see the painted whore ... you dont see the person underneath.

You missed my point - the person underneath is the same nerdy girl from ten years ago. :)

tokenuser

07-31-2008, 08:04 PM

You missed my point - the person underneath is the same nerdy girl from ten years ago. :)Hmmm. Maybe ...

More than likely you remember her as the nerdy girl from 10 years ago, but you are don't realise she now has a black belt in personal security, has stamina that has her running marathons without turning blue/red in the face, knows how to read the latest media formats, and while she is a little chunkier than she used to be - its all muscle, and those curves are really kinda attractive on her.

comhcinc

07-31-2008, 08:05 PM

i like that token

tokenuser

07-31-2008, 08:23 PM

i like that token... and I am buying a Mac sometime in the next 3 days :D

iccanui

07-31-2008, 11:25 PM

why would it be staged? and are you calling normal people who listen to all the negative things being said about vista stupid?

Why would it be staged? Well frist off its MS. I think the better question is, why wouldnt it be staged. I have no faith what so ever in them to be forth right and honest in this parameter. How long did it take them to acknowledge any problems with vista? How about using their heavy hand to force vista on us to begin with instead of releasing a good OS from the start.

Hey, dont get me wrong, vista is much better then it was, its still a resource hog, but driver wise and usability on a decent computer its ok. Im just saying, the reactions were a little too extreme and people point specific things that they say vista doesnt do then bam, omg its awesome. I say its staged and even if its not, it comes across staged.

But most important i stand by my point. Folgers crystals instant coffee did this in the 80's, its not funny compelling or new. The whole point according to their own PR is to combat the mac ads and this is so forgettable to me its just not accomplishing that.

No sir i dont like it.

http://rosswhite.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/mr_horse_as_a_gi.png

comhcinc

07-31-2008, 11:40 PM

Why would it be staged? Well frist off its MS. I think the better question is, why wouldnt it be staged. I have no faith what so ever in them to be forth right and honest in this parameter. How long did it take them to acknowledge any problems with vista? How about using their heavy hand to force vista on us to begin with instead of releasing a good OS from the start.
heavy hand to force vista? how so? what problems with vista exactly are you talking about?

Hey, dont get me wrong, vista is much better then it was, its still a resource hog, but driver wise and usability on a decent computer its ok. Im just saying, the reactions were a little too extreme and people point specific things that they say vista doesnt do then bam, omg its awesome. I say its staged and even if its not, it comes across staged.

xp is a resource hog compare to 2000. what "specific things that they say vista doesnt do then bam, omg its awesome" are you talking about?
But most important i stand by my point. Folgers crystals instant coffee did this in the 80's, its not funny compelling or new. The whole point according to their own PR is to combat the mac ads and this is so forgettable to me its just not accomplishing that.

actually folgers started that in the 70s but any way. if you dislike it that much how would you dispell the ''vista sucks'' myths?

ryudo

08-01-2008, 12:22 AM

I do have some friends on vista and we used to bash Vista all the time but since they got it they have pretty much enjoyed it.
I am still on XP (just with the emulated look of vista) and they do also tell me it's not a must upgrade now and if happy with XP then no rush(unless you want to take more advantage of PC games),but it is nice.

This is what they tell me. I will take their word for it and why I stopped Vista bashing.

comhcinc

08-01-2008, 12:51 AM

i don't really think the is a need to rush to upgrade either, but when it is time for the new computer i don't see a reason why you wouldn't then upgrade.

having said that. i was using the wife's laptop which has xp on it last night and well i wouldn't want to downgrade.

jasonpoon

08-01-2008, 01:22 AM

Sorta reeks of the pepsi taste test ads from the 80's.

Agree. Just like the Coke sues Coke Zero for Infringement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv8YgrqUCVU) viral ad.

Comparing to this "test", M$ should use this music video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPv8PPl7ANU) as their ad.:D

That's the difference between Windows users and other OS users. When Leopard released last year, I remember many fanboys like me rush to the Apple Store, hope to get a copy in the launch day. I can see everyone is so excited to get a hand on Apple new products. Most of Windows users see it as a product only but most of us see it as something we love (though it has been changed since Intel Mac...which you can install Windows on Mac...I know it takes time for switchers to become fanboys)

Anyway I try my dad's Vista PC, not bad but definitely not gonna make me switch (actually which company on earth will release a new OS which is worse than the previous version...capability and system requirement may be issue but it's just the matter of time, it's just gonna be a better OS)

nshady

08-01-2008, 02:58 AM

why do you not understand that it is advertising?

Don't build a straw man. I understand too well that it is advertising, which makes it difficult for me to trust the reactions depicted as legitimate. In a hypothetical situation, if Vista was actually legitimately, 100% terrible - broken, buggy, destroyed machines, only came in Latin etc. etc. - if an ad campaign like this was run, it would be faked. And even though Vista is not such a disgrace, people nowadays have a natural tendency to be suspicious of the claims made in ad campaigns. I'm simply suggesting that even if the experiment was legitimate, people would be more likely to trust their friends' opinions and the word of mouth they experience in their day to day lives, than random people they don't know spouting praise in a campaign.

Does it matter if it is real or not? I mean honestly, if you were someone who had never used or seen Vista. Wouldn't this make you stop and think, "Hey maybe I should check it out and see if it is really crap?"

No, I don't think it necessarily would. I think it's become an advertising cliché, and people have a tendency to distrust rhetoric in campaigns nowadays.

The point is that users shouldn't just believe what they are told, which IMO contradicts what you think this marketing attempt is trying to do.

I understand what this marketing campaign is trying to do:

They really ought to be in the middle of shopping centres with computers so that people can actually try it first hand, not watching a very carefully edited video production.

The irony is that it's an ad campaign telling you not to believe what you are told... so we shouldn't believe that we shouldn't believe what we're told? :P I just don't think that this video will have the effect of making people want to get out and try it for themselves.

heavy hand to force vista? how so? what problems with vista exactly are you talking about?

I think he's referring to Microsoft refusing to stock XP even though there is still significant consumer demand for it, and therefore making nearly every new PC come with it preinstalled. As for the problems, he might be referencing the driver compatibility issues, "on or off" security, significant hardware requirements etc.

xp is a resource hog compare to 2000.

This is a fallacious analogy. Instead of comparing Vista to its predecessor, you need to compare it to the other current generation operating systems on the market. Your ubuntus, Mac OS Xs etc. And if you really do want to compare backwards through time, well, I've upgraded from 10.3 through to 10.5 on my PowerBook G4 without changing any hardware or suffering from any significant decreases in usability.

actually folgers started that in the 70s but any way. if you dislike it that much how would you dispell the ''vista sucks'' myths?

See, this is where you're just getting ridiculous. The date that folgers started an ad is completely irrelevent. It's not iccanui's job to market vista, but he (?) can certainly offer up his opinion on its effectiveness.

comhcinc

08-01-2008, 03:16 AM

I think he's referring to Microsoft refusing to stock XP even though there is still significant consumer demand for it, and therefore making nearly every new PC come with it preinstalled. As for the problems, he might be referencing the driver compatibility issues, "on or off" security, significant hardware requirements etc.
new models come out like that all the time. when apple came out with osx it pissed alot of people off. yet apple refused to stock os9 even through there was significant consumer demand for it. why? cause they knew osx was better

This is a fallacious analogy. Instead of comparing Vista to its predecessor, you need to compare it to the other current generation operating systems on the market. Your ubuntus, Mac OS Xs etc. And if you really do want to compare backwards through time, well, I've upgraded from 10.3 through to 10.5 on my PowerBook G4 without changing any hardware or suffering from any significant decreases in usability.
that is nothing fallacious about it at all. "why don't you want to switch from xp to vista?", "because compared to xp it is system hog."

now on the other hand your 10.3 to 10.5 is a fallacious analogy. it is the same os. why don't you compare osx to os9?

See, this is where you're just getting ridiculous. The date that folgers started an ad is completely irrelevent. It's not iccanui's job to market vista, but he (?) can certainly offer up his opinion on its effectiveness.
it is being ridiculous by knowing a fact ( true a silly i should remember my kids' birthday dates instead fact) and then correcting some one? really? you must have been fun in school.

i am not going to comment on what iccanui job is or isn't cause he isn't here, but i will pose the same question to you.

if you think the campaign is so bad, how would you do it better?

it is easy to mock, it isn't easy to be helpful. i think it is pretty easy to see which road you always take.

nshady

08-01-2008, 04:08 AM

new models come out like that all the time. when apple came out with osx it pissed alot of people off. yet apple refused to stock os9 even through there was significant consumer demand for it. why? cause they knew osx was better

that is nothing fallacious about it at all. "why don't you want to switch from xp to vista?", "because compared to xp it is system hog."

now on the other hand your 10.3 to 10.5 is a fallacious analogy. it is the same os. why don't you compare osx to os9?

You missed the most important point - when people are talking about Vista being a system hog, they're comparing it to the other current generation OSs on the market today. Compared to linux distros and Mac OS X, Vista is bloated. I also feel that 10.3 and 10.5 are more than simply service packs for the original OSX - the fact that you can't just download it as an update for what you're running, but have to go out and buy it makes it a new OS.

it is being ridiculous by knowing a fact ( true a silly i should remember my kids' birthday dates instead fact) and then correcting some one? really? you must have been fun in school.

It is clear that you brought it up simply for the satisfaction of correcting them on something, not because it is of any importance to the discussion.

if you think the campaign is so bad, how would you do it better?

it is easy to mock, it isn't easy to be helpful. i think it is pretty easy to see which road you always take.

Okay, now I'm just getting annoyed. I have already suggested twice already that I think Microsoft should be in malls with computers for people to use, not producing videos like this and spreading them online. And as for mocking instead of being helpful, I'm sorry that I, "Captain Obvious", have presented valid responses to your arguments that you disagree with. Stop throwing around ad hominems, read my posts and then get back to me.

comhcinc

08-01-2008, 04:18 AM

You missed the most important point - when people are talking about Vista being a system hog, they're comparing it to the other current generation OSs on the market today.
i don't think so cause if that was the case osx wouldn't fair very well.

I also feel that 10.3 and 10.5 are more than simply service packs for the original OSX - the fact that you can't just download it as an update for what you're running, but have to go out and buy it makes it a new OS.
no it just means you are drinking the cool-aid and are trying to justify apple ripping you off. if it was a different os it would be osxi osxii etc etc.

It is clear that you brought it up simply for the satisfaction of correcting them on something, not because it is of any importance to the discussion.

so you are a mind reading as well as a hater too huh? actually i was point out that the idea of the ''blind taste test'' has been around alot longer and that seem to me like the reason it has stuck around is because it works.

damnedeyez

08-01-2008, 04:29 AM

I also feel that 10.3 and 10.5 are more than simply service packs for the original OSX - the fact that you can't just download it as an update for what you're running, but have to go out and buy it makes it a new OS.

By that thinking, if MS released XPSP2 for a price instead of just letting previous XP users downlaid it, it'd be a new OS?

nshady

08-01-2008, 04:40 AM

i don't think so cause if that was the case osx wouldn't fair very well.

Well, I'm running the latest version of their OS on my nearly five year old laptop... I don't think you could do the same with Vista.

no it just means you are drinking the cool-aid and are trying to justify apple ripping you off. if it was a different os it would be osxi osxii etc etc.

Okay, I concede your point about 10.5 being all part of the same operating system. Regardless, I don't think that Vista holds up favourably in terms of system usage compared to the other OSs on the market right now, Mac OS X included.

so you are a mind reading as well as a hater too huh? actually i was point out that the idea of the ''blind taste test'' has been around alot longer and that seem to me like the reason it has stuck around is because it works.

Remember that thing I said about throwing around ad hominems and reading my posts? I own Vista, and have already said that it is a perfectly adequate operating system - I just don't think this is the best way they could be marketing it. I don't "hate" it because I own a mac, I simply don't think it will be very effective.

Your correction of the date did not come across as a point you were trying to make. It seemed to be just a petty correction for the sake of it. Still, to challenge that point - the idea of a blind taste test might have stuck around for a while, but do you honestly still believe that people will watch an ad like this and suddenly agree with it? The blind taste test works in person, when you yourself are experiencing it, but as an ad I think, in today's worth, its effectiveness would be more limited.

ryudo

08-01-2008, 04:42 AM

By that thinking, if MS released XPSP2 for a price instead of just letting previous XP users downlaid it, it'd be a new OS?

Sorta on/off topic there was a time Kevin Rose on TSS was talking how excited he was and highly anticipated XPSP2.

comhcinc

08-01-2008, 05:03 AM

Still, to challenge that point - the idea of a blind taste test might have stuck around for a while, but do you honestly still believe that people will watch an ad like this and suddenly agree with it?

yes i do. the point of the ad campaign isn't to make people buy vista, only to give it a try before they dismiss it. i think the website does a pretty good job at that.

mrhaines

08-01-2008, 06:04 AM

I bought Vista when it first came out and haven't had a single problem. I use XP at work and Vista and XP are like night and day. I would never go back if you payed me.

nshady

08-01-2008, 08:34 AM

yes i do. the point of the ad campaign isn't to make people buy vista, only to give it a try before they dismiss it. i think the website does a pretty good job at that.

I never said that I thought the campaign is meant to change opinions completely and make them buy Vista, simply that using the "taste test experiment" format may not prove to be particularly effectual because it has become a cliché in the minds of consumers. I suppose that's the fundamental difference between our positions.

geeksunny

08-01-2008, 09:57 AM

I've tried Vista a few times but always had negative experiences with it, so I always went back to XP. I might try it again one of these days since the laptop I bought last year came with a license for Home Premium.

I don't care what people run, either. This whole scolding people for the OS they run thing has gotten so annoying to me. Especially the linux kids that are anti-Microsoft and try to force that thinking onto you. Don't get me wrong, I love Linux. Always been a bit of a fanboy and ran it on everything (until I became a lazy user and stopped caring about what I run.) I used to use Macs a lot up until OS8, when my family switched over to Windows machines. I've tried OSX and could never get back into the interface like I used to be.

By the way, about XP being supported for years and years - Isn't Microsoft officially cutting off support in 2009? And didn't that include the security updates?

straylightrise

08-01-2008, 10:08 AM

XP is on so many computers that it should be supported for ever because of the sheer scale of deployment.

I was a big MS fan forever then went Apple - I think consumers and individuals should choose whatever OS works best for them

ryudo

08-01-2008, 11:50 AM

XP is on so many computers that it should be supported for ever because of the sheer scale of deployment.

By that thinking we should still be on win 3.1 or win 95.

While I am on XP and do like it but at some point it will be time everyone should let go to allow more progress.

kilroyperrywinkle

08-01-2008, 12:08 PM

I hate the people who say Microsoft is "forcing" their products on you... and I hate this whole debate because to me this marketing is a lot more practical and professional than the whole cool guy vs nerd ads Apple likes to use...

As it stands I can buy a Mac and put windows on it, I cannot buy a cheap Dell and put OSX on it. I can use Parallels to run Windows within OSX but I cannot do the reverse, why?

Because Apple forces you to buy overly priced hardware just to run their software for no reason except they have a higher margin on their hardware than software.

That's a lot more shady and "evil" to me than an IE icon on my desktop.

tokenuser

08-01-2008, 12:53 PM

By the way, about XP being supported for years and years - Isn't Microsoft officially cutting off support in 2009? And didn't that include the security updates?Nope - 2014 (http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?LN=en-gb&C2=1173) (at least)

forbizzle

08-01-2008, 01:25 PM

This is a valid marketing campaign. Apple started a smear campaign, largely based on lies and exaggerations. What is wrong with Microsoft responding with the truth?

These accusations remind me of the old switch ads back in 2002:
Windows "Switchers" Were Solicited, Paid
It turns out that Apple's latest ad campaign, in which former Windows users explain why they moved to the Mac, is less than honest. Contrary to comments made by CEO Steve Jobs last week, Apple solicited the ex-Windows users featured in the ads--the users didn't approach the company first. Furthermore, the participants were paid to be in the ads and will receive royalties each time their ad airs. I don't think any of this would be noteworthy if Jobs hadn't implied that the users approached Apple instead of the other way around.

darknessgp

08-01-2008, 02:42 PM

By that thinking we should still be on win 3.1 or win 95.

While I am on XP and do like it but at some point it will be time everyone should let go to allow more progress.

To semi-quote Dvorak in the latest Cranky Geeks, "Eventually, I'm just going to have to switch to Vista."

...
As it stands I can buy a Mac and put windows on it, I cannot buy a cheap Dell and put OSX on it. I can use Parallels to run Windows within OSX but I cannot do the reverse, why?

Because Apple forces you to buy overly priced hardware just to run their software for no reason except they have a higher margin on their hardware than software.

That's a lot more shady and "evil" to me than an IE icon on my desktop.

Yep, I absolutely hate that. Also, beyond just profit margins. Keeping the hardware in control means that they can tweak the OS to perform beautifully on it. Microsoft almost always has an uphill battle when releasing an OS. Because they have to support mix match hardware and they can't completely drop support for aging hardware. Apple on the other hand, does drop support. I looked on their website, and you CAN'T select the OS. So, I assume that means you get the latest and greatest. How can Microsoft really be so bad for wanting to cut XP after 7 years, when Apple has cut OSX 10.4 Tiger a mere 2 years after it's release (Tiger 2005-2007)?

nshady

08-01-2008, 02:59 PM

How can Microsoft really be so bad for wanting to cut XP after 7 years, when Apple has cut OSX 10.4 Tiger a mere 2 years after it's release (Tiger 2005-2007)?

But 10.4 wasn't an operating system!!!!! It was basically a service pack that you had to pay for!!!!! You didn't see Microsoft pushing XP SP1 when they had SP2 out.

darknessgp

08-01-2008, 03:45 PM

But 10.4 wasn't an operating system!!!!! It was basically a service pack that you had to pay for!!!!! You didn't see Microsoft pushing XP SP1 when they had SP2 out.

I'm sorry, I can't make that distinction. I would agree with you, but I've had many many Mac users say "It is not a service pack" Also, wikipedia doesn't agree with you... Mac OS X (pronounced /mæk oʊ ɛs tɛn/)[3] is a line of computer operating systems developed, marketed, and sold by Apple Inc

If anything I would call it an expansion pack (let's face it, Apple didn't do enough to truely call it a new OS), but that still doesn't stop the fact that you can NOT buy anything other than the latest version from Apple. Yes, Microsoft wasn't pushing SP1 when SP2 was out. However, they also weren't charging for SP2.

geeksunny

08-01-2008, 07:25 PM

Nope - 2014 (http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?LN=en-gb&C2=1173) (at least)

Ohh, guess I was thinking about the mainstream support. Isn't "Extended" what they use for companies that pay for some kind of support after the mainstream has ended?

But still - that's something I guess.

dolson

08-01-2008, 07:26 PM

By that thinking we should still be on win 3.1 or win 95.

And Novell Netware. :)

mrhaines

08-01-2008, 07:26 PM

sisterchristian

08-02-2008, 12:19 AM

Currently I use all three major os's (plus some other obscure ones). I just finished converting my last work workstation computer to Vista. I will say it's "better" than XP, it's more secure in some fundamental ways, it has Powershell which is awesome. Somethings are simply annoying like the rework of the wireless network UI, but all in all it's a good upgrade.

It IS VERY annoying that you can't buy XP anymore, this has caused me nothing but headaches. I just bought my father a new laptop. Only I couldn't find one with XP, so I got him an HP with vista. Now I just want to kick Bill Gates or Ballmer in the nuts. Man the support calls. It's up to one ever day or so. I solved this problem with my mother a while back. She used to call me 2-3 times a week with XP questions. So, I bought her a powerbook. Now it's down to one every month or two and that's usually a question about a website or spam in her mail. I can't do that for my dad, he has several work apps he needs. So we both are just suffering through it.

Oh and linux... Linux is great for a programmer or sysadmin's workstation or a smartphone or point of sale system. You need to be very technical person and want full control over your OS (and not play games or other low latency graphics apps... X is a awesome idea... from 1990) or have a completely unpowerful, uber-simple UI. Otherwise it's pointless.

nshady

08-02-2008, 02:42 AM

I'm sorry, I can't make that distinction. I would agree with you, but I've had many many Mac users say "It is not a service pack" Also, wikipedia doesn't agree with you...

If anything I would call it an expansion pack (let's face it, Apple didn't do enough to truely call it a new OS), but that still doesn't stop the fact that you can NOT buy anything other than the latest version from Apple. Yes, Microsoft wasn't pushing SP1 when SP2 was out. However, they also weren't charging for SP2.

Haha. Mate, if you re-read the topic you'll see I was flamed for calling 10.5 a different operating system to 10.4 :P