So, Josh, the movie thing won't work out huh?

[jumpingjupiter]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080807-hollywood-comics-2.html

I said it many times, I'm not convinced the movie thing hasn't worked. In fact, I think it may just.

[JAFlanagan]

This article contradicts nothing I said in my original article.

I said it doesn't create new comic book readers. It doesn't get people, in a significant way, going to the shops every week. This is still true. There is certainly an increase in trade sales following the films, but it doesn't create that many new readers.

Now I wrote this before the Dark Knight became the biggest movie ever, but I still don't think you're going to see monthly issue numbers skyrocket.

The article you linked says that people hollywood is optioning a lot of comic properties to make films of them.

No shit, Newsarama.

Also, indy creators seem to be in the business of making movie properties instead of comic books. I think that sucks. I mean, it's good for the creators financially, but I want comics that are made to be comics.

[jumpingjupiter]

I think you are wrong. I think this much comics-related buzz, should it sustain for a significant amount of time will bring in a significant chunk of new readers to the comics industry. It's not an outlandish claim. It's marketing 101.

[denmmurray]

I think ultimately people are going to see these as just movies not "the movie based on the graphic novel". I agree with you, josh, in these movies aren't going to spur the average moviegoers to go out and by A Killing Joke or Whiteout. They're just going to enjoy the movies as movies and not care that there's a 50 issue run that expands the story well beyond the movie.

[jumpingjupiter]

Not if the publishers wake up to the marketing opportunity. Random House did.

[JAFlanagan]

They're selling Watchmen and Batman trades by the thousands right now. That's good sure, and people are making money, but I want Scalped to succeed as a comic book, not as a pre-cursor to a movie or an HBO series.

When you see monthly issue sales go up 50% or even 15%, then you tell me it's working. If all the money is being made by trade paperback sales of the back catalog, how much investment do you think publishers will put into new content. I hate the idea that comics can only succeed if there's a movie made from it. Tell Robert Kirkman that.

[denmmurray]

Sure, but when you try to bring in people who only know these characters from the movies they're going to have to dumb it down. Not everyone is going to love Whiteout, not everyone is going to love or appreciate A Killing Joke, Watchmen...forget about it. If you're talking about doing novelizations about comic book characters I tend to think that takes away from what a comic really is and people are not going to get what makes comics great.

[denmmurray]

They're selling Watchmen and Batman trades by the thousands right now. That's good sure, and people are making money, but I want Scalped to succeed as a comic book, not as a pre-cursor to a movie or an HBO series.

True, sales for the watchmen might be going up but how many people are going to read through it and say "Wtf?"...

[jumpingjupiter]

I'm not talking novelizations. I'm talking Micheal Crichton, Dean Koontz, Robert Ludlum. They are big names and sell more books due to their connection with film.

[denmmurray]

I'm not talking novelizations. I'm talking Micheal Crichton, Dean Koontz, Robert Ludlum. They are big names and sell more books due to their connection with film.

True, but we're talking two completely different mediums. Despite our love for comics the majority of people still see them as "Funnybooks" and only see cheesy superheroes in skin tight spandex taking on ridiculous villains...despite it being so much more than that.

[jumpingjupiter]

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is... ;)

[Humphrey Lee]

Tell me right now why Iron Man and Batman are two of the biggest movies of the year and yet the sales on their main titles still don't typically go over 100,000 a month, and even then you'll still probably be grasping at false hope. Most people who don't already read comics want to see the superheroes on the big screen for 2 hours at a time with all the flashy effects and big sounds and for $10 a pop as they hang out with their friends or take out the wife and kids - not wait every month to enjoy them for 6 minutes for $3.

If anything, I have the feeling Watchmen might finally start to be the big backlash against comic book properties when it hits if it doesn't properly entertain the masses. "Well, that was needlessly confusing. Leave it to comic book geeks to think they're smarter than they are!" The irony being this will be from people who's last and only books they read were Harry Potter ones because "they wanted to see what all the fuss was about"...

[denmmurray]

Tell me right now why Iron Man and Batman are two of the biggest movies of the year and yet the sales on their main titles still don't typically go over 100,000 a month, and even then you'll still probably be grasping at false hope. Most people who don't already read comics want to see the superheroes on the big screen for 2 hours at a time with all the flashy effects and big sounds and for $10 a pop as they hang out with their friends or take out the wife and kids - not wait every month to enjoy them for 6 minutes for $3.

If anything, I have the feeling Watchmen might finally start to be the big backlash against comic book properties when it hits if it doesn't properly entertain the masses. "Well, that was needlessly confusing. Leave it to comic book geeks to think they're smarter than they are!" The irony being this will be from people who's last and only books they read were Harry Potter ones because "they wanted to see what all the fuss was about"...

exactly...

[ConorKilpatrick]

Invincible Iron Man sales have dropped almost 50% since the book came out.

Movies don't bring in new comic book readers.

[denmmurray]

But what's sad is The Notebook movie comes out or some crap movie that's based on a crap book and throngs of people go out and buy the book.

*sigh*

[Humphrey Lee]

But what's sad is The Notebook movie comes out or some crap movie that's based on a crap book and throngs of people go out and buy the book.

*sigh*

What I want to know is where these Watchman sales are hitting most - your everyday person who saw the trailer and EW cover and all that and think they need to try it and see what the fuss is about, or comic book fans who are being "shamed" into finally reading it after all these years. Personal exposure, I've seen three people who I've talked to regularly in the shop for a handful of years now finally read it for the first time due to all this after blissfully walking into the shop for however long to pick up their usual allotment of what have you. I need to talk to more of my retailer buddies and see if they have a proper read on who they're selling to.

[gobo]

Buying 1 book is different than spending $3-$4 every month. Much less commitment.

That why trades go up because it's a one-off purchase

[Humphrey Lee]

Invincible Iron Man sales have dropped almost 50% since the book came out.

Movies don't bring in new comic book readers.

Well, the 50% slip always happens and is accounted for, even with so called "new readers" and big hits, but the main thing is, if movies bring in readers, and issue 1 of IIM came out the exact week after the movie opened, why didn't first issue copies sell out at something like a half million print run instead of barely six digits? Oh... that's right...

[bgavino]

Invincible Iron Man sales have dropped almost 50% since the book came out.

Movies don't bring in new comic book readers.

I tend to agree with this statment. They have been saying for years now how comic book movies are going to bring in new readers and still nothing has changed. All three Spider Man movies were a huge success and it didn't bring in new readers. The Dark Knight is not going to bring in new readers. Neither will Watchmen. The public just doesn't care about comic books. I hate to say it but it's true. A friend of mine is constantly asking me if the Watchmen stuff that has been out so far looks like it's being faithful to the comic book and every time I tell him to read it he just kind of shrugs and shakes his head and I think that is how the genberal public feels. It's unfortunate but I think it's true.

I mean it's good that Watchmen is getting an increase of sales but Watchmen has always been a very good seller and now it's getting a bump because of the buzz of the film. Lets see how the sales are like 3 or 4 months after the movie comes out. Now I am not saying any thing bad about any super hero movies I just tend to agree that none of these movies will bring in new readers.

Later Bryan

[hank41]

@Conor

I read comics now because of Spider-man 2

[ConorKilpatrick]

@Conor

I read comics now because of Spider-man 2

Go read Josh's article. Yes, yes, a handful of people will start reading comics from the movies, but not any statistically significant number.

[hank41]

So I guess that Josh is trying to say that comics shouldn't have to rely on movies to be successful...???

please correct me if im wrong

[bgavino]

@Conor

I read comics now because of Spider-man 2

I read comic books now because of the first X-Men movie but there has been no real increase of sales with any comic book movies.

Later Bryan

[hank41]

Go read Josh's article. Yes, yes, a handful of people will start reading comics from the movies, but not any statistically significant number.

That's true. I bet im the only one in that sold out theater who actually went out to a comic shop to start reading. good point. not a significant amount of people

[comhcinc]

it's not that people don't so much read comic books. it's that people don't read period.

everyone didn't read da vinci code, everyone who reads, read the da vinci code.

[hank41]

great point. we are all readers of all literature, not just comics

[gobo]

it's not that people don't so much read comic books. it's that people don't read period.

everyone didn't read da vinci code, everyone who reads, read the da vinci code.

Actually IIRC Da Vinci Code and even moreso Harry Potter got a LOT more people reading than were reading before.

I'm not sure if it will ever translate to people reading more stuff though or if people will just stop reading now that Potter is done or only read Dan Brown stuff

[gobo]

Actually looks like while (at least in 2004) reading for pleasure was at an all time high, young people are now reading less for pleasure than in a long time.

[hank41]

most of my friends are just starting to read for fun and im heading into my senior year of high school.

i think its because we started reading actually good books in school like Catcher in the Rye and The Great Gatsby. It woke them up to reading and showed them that reading is fun!!! (the more you know...)

[gobo]

It's so sad to me that people don't read for pleasure. It's something I've loved doing since I was like 3.

My girlfriend doesn't like reading fiction at all (aside from John Irving), but at least she likes some non-fiction reading for pleasure so there's that.

[hank41]

its just boring/hard for some people to do

[JohnVFerrigno]

I never understood how people don't read for pleasure. i remember riding the bus to school and reading. Somebody would always look at me and say "how can you read?" and i would always reply "how can you NOT?"

As for the movie thing: just ask any comic shop owner. big blockbuster movies don't spike comic sales. the sell toys, pajamas, posters, stickers, coloring books, blah blah blah, but they don't significantly enhance the readership of the very thing that spawned them. kind of sad.

Can you imagine the comic industry today if everybody who went to see movies like Spider-Man and The Dark knight became comics readers because of it?

This isn't likely to happen. Comics are a totally different medium of storytelling than movies and therefore appeal to different people. it's just the way it is. Sucks that comics aren't bigger, but they are still successful enough to keep on coming out, so we can still get our fix.

[Jimski]

This thread may be just half a notch too sassy for my taste. A little zesty for a buncha guys talking about books.

Boy... The Da Vinci Code almost made a non-reader out of me. (What if the reason people don't read anymore is that every time they try a popular book, it turns out to be something like The Da Vinci Code? "Books are dumb. It's just people standing in rooms, lecturing one another on made up history.")

This "people read Harry Potter, said 'Hey! Books exist!' and started buying big piles of books" thing may become my next research project. I need to see some numbers.

[hank41]

i have little cousins (8 & 10) who are "readers" now and their first book was harry potter

now i got the 10 year old to read mouse guard!!! i roooooooooock!!!

[CAM!]

Hey, I got an 8 year old to read

http://www.independentpropaganda.com/ip_wp/wp-content/category_images/news/may07/imagecomics_panda/pandacover.jpg

And she loved it. Clearly I also (ahem) roooooooooock!!!

(oh and you should all read it too)

[comhcinc]

I never understood how people don't read for pleasure.
i have never understood how people don't discuss politics for fun pleasure. i just don't get it.

different stokes for different folks.

[sugarsickness]

What I want to know is where these Watchman sales are hitting most - your everyday person who saw the trailer and EW cover and all that and think they need to try it and see what the fuss is about, or comic book fans who are being "shamed" into finally reading it after all these years. Personal exposure, I've seen three people who I've talked to regularly in the shop for a handful of years now finally read it for the first time due to all this after blissfully walking into the shop for however long to pick up their usual allotment of what have you. I need to talk to more of my retailer buddies and see if they have a proper read on who they're selling to.I work at a bookstore and Watchmen has been selling insanely since Dark Knight's release, and I feel compelled to ask every person I sell one to if they have already read it. The answer has always been that the trailer made them interested or that their friend/roommate/brother/whatever is urging them to after seeing the trailer.

[hank41]

Hey, I got an 8 year old to read

http://www.independentpropaganda.com/ip_wp/wp-content/category_images/news/may07/imagecomics_panda/pandacover.jpg

And she loved it. Clearly I also (ahem) roooooooooock!!!

(oh and you should all read it too)

it's pronounced...roooooooooooooock!!! with a high pitch like Bruce Dickinson or Rob Halford

[gobo]

its just boring/hard for some people to do

Oh I understand that, it just makes me sad since it's something I enjoy SO much.

I mean I went to Cuba and the main thing I did was read, forget swimming and tanning I just sat in the shade with a drink and plowed through books

[CAM!]

it's pronounced...roooooooooooooock!!! with a high pitch like Bruce Dickinson or Rob Halford

I was going for something a little more gutteral, like Danzig or Zack De La Rocha.

But I can do the Roger Daltry YEAAAAAAAAAAAH too. Arguably the best scream recorded.

[conanobrien]

I am another person that was swept into comics by the movies of the last five years. I think right now the amount people going out after watching the dark knight and then getting into comics after is low but once you have enough people picking up trades like watchmen there is going to be a percent of them that will continue on to start buying other things. I think we should wait a few years before we can tell how much an impact these movies are having.

Also it seems some of you are sort of against buying things in trades but for me I don't know if I will ever get to a point where I am buying single issues in a shop on a schedule. The notion of waiting six months or more for a story arc that is readable in roughly an hour doesn't appeal to me. Having ads plastered in between pages of story is also enough to keep me away from single issues. Add in the hostile and unhelpful comic shop workers (I know they aren't all evil) and that is plenty of reason to keep me away from the comic shop.

I think the amount of people that you can get going into a comic shop every week isn't going to go up much if any from people watching movies and things but I do feel like in the next few years there will be a big shift into new people buying trades online or in bookstores.

[jumpingjupiter]

I read comics now because of Iron Man. So yeah, B.S movies don't bring in new readers. I fail to understand the propensity to state what's happening as somehow indicative of what will happen if 5 years. The build up of buzz over this decade and what can be realistically projected as an continued increase in buzz over the next five years will improve comics publishers brand perception n the general populace's mind state. Some of the millions will inevitably buy comics. Probably a younger demographic. It's a simple phenomenon that has precedence in other sectors.

When observing the current situation the most likely thing to occur is that comics sales will eventually go up. I say that by the year 2013 we will see a single issue comic move 400K - 600K units. If not, trades will be the ones absorbing that increase in sales. Which is essentially the same thing. An increase in sales.

[esophagus]

I think you are incredibly off, but at least you seem to be content with that. We've been seeing comic movies for a long while now. While they bring in a few readers, they haven't seen enough to raise the sales of comics a minimum of 300%.

[Zombox]

There cannot be disagreement with the facts. Sitting in on panels that specifically discussed this at Heroescon. EVery single publisher's reprsentative, from DC to Marvel to Image to Boom! said the same thing: movies do not significantly increase the sales of their books for more than one or two months. Every single representative agreed on this. All of them.

They're not going to stop making movies, but movies are not saving comics. These guys have done the research and it shows that people who watch the movies do not usually cross over to reading the books.

[ConorKilpatrick]

"After the Burton movie came out and sales went into the stratosphere" - Alan Grant, Batman writer. Source. (http://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2007/01/batman-alan-grant-norm-breyfogle-speak.html)

Not so much now. Invincible Iron Man sales are plummeting. The Dark Knight is the biggest movie in the last ten years... Batman comic sales should be sky rocketing. They are not.

Again, comic book movies might bring in ten, a hundred, a thousand new readers, but not enough to move the needle on a major book.

[esophagus]

Batman 639 - 62,300
Batman 640 - 66,600
Batman Begins comes out.
Batman 641 - 67,200
Batman 642 - 65,400

Fantastic Four 527 - 67,400
Fantastic Four 528 - 55,900
Fantastic Four comes out.
Fantastic Four 529 - 53,000
Fantastic Four 530 - 51,800

X-Men 102 - 111,700
X-Men 103 - 116,400
X-Men comes out.
X-Men 104 - 113,900
X-Men 105 - 106,800

Iron Man 27 - 36,000
Iron Man 28 - 35,747
Iron Man comes out.
Iron Man 29 (now titled Iron Man: Director of Shield. Invincible Iron Man's sales are higher, but its the first issue, so useless in these stats. It should be noted that Invincible Iron Man 2 sold 40,000 copies less than 1, so I'm not just using this title to be "sneaky") - 36,405
Iron Man 30 - 35,371

[Six Gun]

Again, comic book movies might bring in ten, a hundred, a thousand new readers, but not enough to move the needle on a major book.

a thousand readers isn't something to laugh at

[ConorKilpatrick]

a thousand readers isn't something to laugh at

For a book not published by DC and Marvel, sure. But that's not what we're talking about.

[Six Gun]

For a book not published by DC and Marvel, sure. But that's not what we're talking about.

I disagree, if you're selling even 70,000 copies, bringing that total up to 71,000 is not something to shrug off. Sales are sales in no matter what number. I'm not disputing here that movies aren't the great white hope of weekly comic books sales, but I am saying that bringing in another $1,500 isn't something that any business as small as comic books will throw aside.

[ConorKilpatrick]

I disagree, if you're selling even 70,000 copies, bringing that total up to 71,000 is not something to shrug off. Sales are sales in no matter what number. I'm not disputing here that movies aren't the great white hope of weekly comic books sales, but I am saying that bringing in another $1,500 isn't something that any business as small as comic books will throw aside.

And I'm saying, adding another 1,000 readers to a book selling 70,000 is not very significant. Not with the sales cycles that most Marvel and DC books go through.

[Six Gun]

And I'm saying, adding another 1,000 readers to a book selling 70,000 is not very significant. Not with the sales cycles that most Marvel and DC books go through.

sure, it's not a provable point though really, we're down to arguing about the perception of Editorial more than any tangible effect

you win this one Kilpatrick!

[gobo]

Besides it's a moot point, look at Cass's numbers there was NO increase whatsoever and a decrease in most cases after the movies came out.

[esophagus]

sure, it's not a provable point though really, we're down to arguing about the perception of Editorial more than any tangible effect

you win this one Kilpatrick!In 2006 Batman sold at its most over 110,000. At its worst it was barely cracking 60,000. Sure, thats a fairly extreme example, but comic sales fluctuate far too much for 1,000 to matter a whole lot.

[Six Gun]

In 2006 Batman sold at its most over 110,000. At its worst it was barely cracking 60,000. Sure, thats a fairly extreme example, but comic sales fluctuate far too much for 1,000 to matter a whole lot.

I don't think you're understanding my point. Money is money, all I'm saying is that if a movie seems to have brought in $1,500, that no editor in his right mind is going to not get a little smile from that.

[gobo]

But you're not getting that an issue can fluctuate by MORE than 1000 copies in a given month with or without a movie.

You can't even correlate the movie coming out to the 1000 issue increase, it could just be random chance.

[Humphrey Lee]

I disagree, if you're selling even 70,000 copies, bringing that total up to 71,000 is not something to shrug off. Sales are sales in no matter what number. I'm not disputing here that movies aren't the great white hope of weekly comic books sales, but I am saying that bringing in another $1,500 isn't something that any business as small as comic books will throw aside.

There's also no guarantee that shops are selling those issues. It might just be retailers bumping orders because they think they will due to movie buzz. Whether they disappear from those shelves or not, who knows, but given that sales are still slowly disappearing each month again, chances are that means those shop owners just learned their lesson instead.

[JAFlanagan]

I don't think you're understanding my point. Money is money, all I'm saying is that if a movie seems to have brought in $1,500, that no editor in his right mind is going to not get a little smile from that.

That's 1500 gross. Profit to the publisher is negligible. If you're a salesperson, and you bring in 71K instead of 70K, you're not getting a bonus. Significant is growing your audience 10-20-30%, and keeping them. We haven't seen it.

As I said (over and over) there is not a significant bump in monthly comic book readership. And it's not a case of "waiting a few years." Comic book movies have been insanely popular since 2000 with X-Men. It didn't happen, and it's not going to.

Alan Moore and Mike Mignola are both making a quick mint though. But an insignificant number of those people will come back to the shop.

There's also no guarantee that shops are selling those issues. It might just be retailers bumping orders because they think they will due to movie buzz. Whether they disappear from those shelves or not, who knows, but given that sales are still slowly disappearing each month again, chances are that means those shop owners just learned their lesson instead.

That's an excellent point.

[gobo]

I'm getting dizzy...




around.... and around.... and around... and around

[jumpingjupiter]

There is no arguing that movies have not significantly increased sales. It's a fact. What I posit is that the comic book movie trend WILL increase sales significantly IN THE NEXT 5-10 YEARS. I'm not making that statement out of some sort of ethereal hunch.

I have to get back to work, but will be back to explain why I am convinced comics sales will see a significant increase within a decade.

[hank41]

@Josh

You bring up a good point. If we were going to see any kind of increase, we would have seen it by now. It's not like comic movies are gonna get any bigger. If we were already at the peak of popularity and we didn't see it, then we probably won't see it ever.

[Humphrey Lee]

That's an excellent point.

I tend to make one of those about once a month. Now it seems I've blown my wad for the month on those... shit!

:D

[conanobrien]

Alan Moore and Mike Mignola are both making a quick mint though. But an insignificant number of those people will come back to the shop.


Isn't it kind of a misconception to think that in order for comics to be successful people need to go into a comic shop?

[jumpingjupiter]

WARNING! LONG ASS POST AHEAD!

OK, first let me get a few things out of the way.

Someone mentioned it was highly improbable that we'll see a 300% increase in comics sales. I agree. However what I project is not a 300% increase but rather something more like a 15%-25%. I remembered my figures wrong. From memory I thought Secret Invasion sold more than 254.4K.(http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/08/04/marvel-month-to-month-sales-june-2008/)

Another thing is that though we are approaching the peak of popularity of comic book movies (IMO we are not quite yet at the apex), precedents suggests that the trickle down effect can take several years to occur. That is why my projection for increased comic sales is for the future.

Now for the reasons why I am convinced that it is likely that we will witness a surge in comic sales, wether they be for existing comics or an increase in sales across the board - ie. Batman doesn't sell more but all publishers are able to sustain more titles (which I think may already be happening with Virgin comics). To be absolutely clear I'll phrase that yet another way. In 5-10 years if you do not see New Avengers moving more than it's current 100K I predict that it will be because other and/or all publishers are moving 100K on more titles. An increase in sales but spread wider. Or yet again, trades could be the ones benefiting from increase. One way or another. Publishers are highly likely to sell more comics.

*phew*

Here we go, let's talk branding and marketing (I'm a graphic designer):

Rule #1: People don't buy products, they buy brands. And brands that equal lifestyle sell more than brands that equal products.

Roughly 25+ years ago hip hop was an underground phenomenon. It became increasingly pervasive in mainstream media until it became the pop culture staple of today. The road from underground to mainstream was decades long. You might argue that it was only 10 years or maybe a little less. Still, the time it takes for one business sector to affect the next varies but it never is instantaneous. It typically takes many years, usually decades for a lifestyle to surface to mainstream to then be branded, marketed and manufactured. Puff Daddy is the product of years upon years of mainstream marketing filters and blenders. Someone innovates a new form of music, a few kids like it, they tell other kids, develop a tribal mentality, shape their identity around this, develop a fashion a lingo a body language and/or other form of specialized social vernacular, are outcast etc. But some savvy business person takes a risk on this and exploits the niche market, it creates ripples in the industry, someone else gives it a shot, it works etc. For years and years until the big guns take notice and monopolize the initial thing and produce countless spin off products and it becomes a mainstream lifestyle option.

Comics has undergone a very similar experience. Comics culture has long been a niche culture. It still is. But some savvy dudes are exploiting it. They sell toys, clothes and dang it some smart dude's gonna figure out that comics would sell well as a comics culture related product!

Granted, selling something you can read is not as easy to sell as something you can wear. But their is precedent for that also. Harry Potter, Da Vinci Code, Lord of the Rings. And yes, books can be marketed as lifestyle products. Oprah anyone? Cosmopolitan magazine? Those are very much lifestyle products. Self-Help and fashion to be specific. If 75 years of marketing and branding history teach us anything it's that all signs point to increased comics sales in the near future. I say that the near future might even be now. Compare 300, that wasn't prominently recognized as a graphic novel adaptation even though the trailer touted it's origins, to Watchmen that is know widely discussed as a graphic novel movie. Indicating that since 300's release the media and by extension the public's attention has shifted significantly towards the source of this latest trend in movies. This could very well be the trigger that sets off the typical trickle down effect. I'm not sure of the sales figures but I'd venture a guess that the 300 Graphic Novel did not sell nearly as many copies when the movie was announced as The Watchmen did.

Rule #2: Endorsement is an old and very basic gimmick. And. It. Works.

Watch pretty much any movie filmed in the 1930s, 40s and early 50s. Take a shot every time someone lights a cigarette or pours a drink of booze on screen. You'll be drunk before you can say "Stella!". Basic marketing. If popular people do it, so will you. Tobacco and liquor companies knew it back then and everyone else knows it now. Robert Downey Jr. eating a whopper in Iron Man means big bucks for BK. Proctor and Gamble pay Tiger Woods lots of money to be in their ads because it sells friggin' razors. Even if Tiger has absolutely no friggin' thing to do with razors.

But endorsement can be done with varying degrees of subtlety and complexity. It's not all nascar and Tide. Celebrities are given dresses and suits by fashion industry kahoonas to wear at awards galas. Tennis players are given powerade to drink between sets and so on. Endorsement can even be inadvertent.

Are celebs endorsing comics? Damn right they are! They star in the frigging movies! Not enough? That's cool, more direct endorsements have started being made. Watch this clip (at 3:20 to 5:00 but the whole thing is pretty cool) -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jIlCKiXdVY&feature=related It's a little reluctant and defensive. It's a start. Anyway, what people get from that is that Jonathan Ross and Robert Downey Jr. like comics. Watch this one -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jIlCKiXdVY&feature=related where Gwyneth Paltrow basically ridicules anyone who makes fun of comics. Translation to audience: "I'm hot and I say it's ok to like comics". Isolated incidents you say? Here's a quote from Zack Snyder unapologetically talking comics in Entertainment Weekly magazine: "''At the time, comic books had hit the ceiling,'' Snyder says. ''Superman had done everything he could do; the X-Men and Fantastic Four had faced every possible bad guy and end-of-the-world scenario. And then Watchmen came along and took it to the next level by breaking all the rules.'' That there my fellow comic fans is a ringing endorsement to the "comics can be smart" cause. And basically everything written or recorded about Zack's approach to the movie is him being a geek and saying "Oh my God I love this comic it's so awesome!" Like Joe Q said in a newsarama article, "people have been asking 'when is the comic book movie bubble gonna burst?' It's been 10 years. Isn't it time we stop asking that?" People are only starting to talk comics in any significant depth along with the associated movies. Popular people are making comics culture cool and trendy and hip. Remember rule #1. People want lifestyles and identities. Comics are a lifestyle and identity option among others and celebs are saying it's cool. People are lambs, they will flock and this will result in increased comics sales.

More examples of celebs endorsing comics and what I feel is evidence of the growing trend of comics exploited by the mainstream-> http://www.comicbookmovie.com/news/articles/4927.asp <- I think I may just buy this Paris Hilton one for the heck of it! lol
http://www.virgincomics.com/root_shadowh/shadowh.aspx

Rule #3: Show yourself. The more people see you the more likely they are to buy you. Simple probability law.

Comics, not just comic book movies are on the cusp of being a prominent mainstream media chewing toy. Entertainment Weekly has published an article entitled "Watchmen: An Oral History". And it's not fluff. It's hardcore comics analysis. ->http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1120854,00.html Entertainment Weekly! This isn't UPN people it's big time mainstream stuff discussing what until now has been a "geeks only" subject. And if the reports of people buying the Watchmen trade in droves upon seeing the trailer are any indication, we are seeing the beginnings of a trend. Which could very well result (and probably has already resulted in the case of Moore's masterpiece) in an increase in comics sales.

Rule #4: Know your target demographic and follow it.

In 2002 a 10 year old kid who loved Spider-Man in the theater probably got Spider-Man pajamas for christmas and Spider-Man action figures. When he watches the Watchmen in May (heh, see what I did there?) He'll be 17 and the movie will totally satisfy his new-found angst and he ain't gonna want no friggin' Rorschach pajamas! He's gonna want the real deal. The hardcore lifestyle. That could be comics/graphic novels. From Watchmen he can go to any number of cerebral and violent comics that will appeal to him. And with celebrities endorsing the lifestyle and it's pervasiveness in mainstream media it's not that much of a stretch to think that that kid (representative of a demographic slice) will indeed choose comics as his lifestyle product... Resulting in increased sales.

Because of these facts, if there is no increase in comics sales in any way in the next 5 to 10 years I would consider this the most bizarre anomaly in the last 75 years of branding and marketing history. I'm quite convinced that comics sales will increase significantly in the near future. If Adrien were here today scanning his TV set wall and no doubt the net he would say "Buy shares in all major comics publishers."

Why hasn't it happened yet? Because so far, comics have not been on the mind of the general populace. Comic Book MOVIES have. But it is my opinion that focus is changing and that more and more mental real estate is giving way to the source of these movies. Which IMO will result in an increase in comics sales.

We shall see.

[jumpingjupiter]

I guess Watchmen did sell a lot more than 300 http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/08/01/even-more-watchmen-trades-available/

[gobo]

I hope iFanboy is around in 5-10 years so that we can (unfortunately) see you're wrong.

I'm going to wait for someone more well-versed in comic history give you a more well reasoned rebuttal than I could.

[jumpingjupiter]

My opinion is that this is not about comics history, it's about marketing history.

But yeah, I might be way off. ;)

[Tad]

I'll add something into the comic popularity mix: perceived value.

In the early days of Marvel comics were twelve cents. Page count was around 18 - 23. Plus you got an editorial staff with a sense of humor, who made you think you were part of a cool new club. Thank you, Stan.

In 1966 a Hershey Bar (7/8 oz.) cost a nickle in the United States. So you could get two bars and change for the price of learning Kazar's secret origins.
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/daredevil/13-1.jpg

Mmmm, chocolate. Creamy and delicious but quickly gone except for the sticky ring around your mouth. Daredevil #13 however could be read over and over or traded for one of your friend's comics.

Now you have to set aside the fanaticism of the Chocolate Fanboys and Comic Collectors. The need to complete and maintain a series of The Irredeemable Ant-Man or to dance up to the precipice of Type 2 Diabetes does not figure into the general scale of perceived value. Obsessiveness is willing to pay a premium price.

But today that same Hershey Bar is well under a dollar while Ed Brubaker's latest DD is about three bucks with similar comics toying with the four dollar price tag. So the rate of exchange is closer to six candy bars to a comic. I think the general public says, "That's a lot a chocolate I could be eating."

So a lot of the growth or shrinkage of the comic market is about non fans, possibly interested after seeing a movie, picking up a comic, hefting it in their hands and deciding if the purchase is worth it. That's why comics can't go back to newsprint, the perceived value of the comic would drop much more than the cover price. "Hey this is like the newspaper I toss every day." This is why a graphic novel in a bookstore has appeal; have you looked at the price of books? A graphic novel looks like something meant to be kept. Not a periodical.

As far as using today's movies to forecast future growth in another medium? I don't see it as a given. All the kids who grew up on Transformers cartoons aren't necessarily packing the comic shops. But they sure turned out for the movie. I bet the same will be said of the GI Joe cartoon.

I'm glad I'm not a big chocolate fan.

[jumpingjupiter]

Good points all. However, again, It's not the movies that I predict will make people go to comics, but the buzz about comics that the movies seem to be on the cusp of causing.

Also, buy lots of chocolate bars because they are cheap where you live. I pay 1.25$ plus here in Eastern Canada.

[gobo]

Man you have shitty dollar stores in the maritimes!

[hank41]

you can get a gallon of maple syrup for 37 cents..that's a bargain partner

[esophagus]

I can't disagree as much with this.

Saying that there might be 86,000 readers to a 75,000 reader book or 115,000 on a 100,000 book is possible. I don't believe it will happen, but I do see how it could.

I also agree that things like Fun Home making lists of the best books of the year, or EW publishing in depth comic reviews, will be much better at drawing attention than movies.



Semi-relevant: The comic shop is killing the industry. I've realized this in my search for a good comic shop in the city. You have to really go looking for a comic now. They aren't in your face like they used to be. I know this is all well known fact, but I'm just discovering it first hand now.

[jumpingjupiter]

I'll agree with that. The first comic I ever bought when I was a kid was at the corner store. I never had enough money to sustain my interest but it stuck with me. At 30 years of age, I know the lay of the city, how to find a LCS and tell the snarky clerk to shove off if the need arises.

Dang! I forgot about dollar stores. Mmm, chocolate!

Crap! I'm on a sugar-free diet...

[llauranzoniii]

I've said it a couple of times. I'm just starting in comics. I don't know how to say it but Watchmen didn't make me jump into comics or is the only thing I'm reading ( I did buy the book though, haven't read it yet). TRS and iFanboy talked about The Killing Joke and it was the 1st book I read. I've read Astonishing X-Men Vol1, Fables Vol1 and I'm working on Vol2 of both of those. I also have Y and Batman: Year One on my shelf ready to read. If you read into that then you can see that I'm devouring comics. I'm even going to go pick up Final Crisis today (hopefully).

So did 1 trailer or several movies get me into comics. I don't know, I don't think so but they have sparked an interest. I've been watching movies based on comic books for a while but I'm just now getting started reading them. Maybe it was my last geek gene that was laying dormant. Now I can punch the last hole in my geek club membership card. Who knows. But for me I just enjoy the medium very much. I love movies and I love reading (when I have the time, DAMN KIDS!!).

Not sure what else to say. Just my experience.

[cenquist]

Semi-relevant: The comic shop is killing the industry. I've realized this in my search for a good comic shop in the city. You have to really go looking for a comic now. They aren't in your face like they used to be. I know this is all well known fact, but I'm just discovering it first hand now.

I did the move thing about a year ago and had this same problem. I literally drive by two shops on my way to work, but when I went in to talk to the "comic book guy" I was treated like an idiot. So I went looking a little harder and found another shop a little out of my way, but at least when I go in they don't ignore me and treat me like crap.

[JAFlanagan]

I've said it a couple of times. I'm just starting in comics. I don't know how to say it but Watchmen didn't make me jump into comics or is the only thing I'm reading ( I did buy the book though, haven't read it yet). TRS and iFanboy talked about The Killing Joke and it was the 1st book I read. I've read Astonishing X-Men Vol1, Fables Vol1 and I'm working on Vol2 of both of those. I also have Y and Batman: Year One on my shelf ready to read. If you read into that then you can see that I'm devouring comics. I'm even going to go pick up Final Crisis today (hopefully).

So did 1 trailer or several movies get me into comics. I don't know, I don't think so but they have sparked an interest. I've been watching movies based on comic books for a while but I'm just now getting started reading them. Maybe it was my last geek gene that was laying dormant. Now I can punch the last hole in my geek club membership card. Who knows. But for me I just enjoy the medium very much. I love movies and I love reading (when I have the time, DAMN KIDS!!).

Not sure what else to say. Just my experience.

No matter how it happened, I'm glad it did. Keep reading!

[deadspace]

Semi-relevant: The comic shop is killing the industry. I've realized this in my search for a good comic shop in the city. You have to really go looking for a comic now. They aren't in your face like they used to be. I know this is all well known fact, but I'm just discovering it first hand now.

Is there a chain of shops called The Comic Shop in america or do you mean all comic shops in general..? Cos i'm not understanding :s

[gobo]

He's talking about comic shops in general

[Valoharth]

As much as I hate to say it but a chain store comic shop would actually be "good" for the indistry in its way. However it would kill the LCS and harm the indy comic.

[gobo]

Online stores would keep indie alive.

It's not like Wal-Mart has killed indie music

[Valoharth]

Thats true, Dimond (spelled wrong I know) has pretty much made it hard to publish comics anyway, they might as well open up a chain store.

[hank41]

ha! too true

[deadspace]

He's talking about comic shops in general

Ok, then I don't understand. Where I live (Glasgow, Scotland) there are 3 comic shops - 2 are independent and 1 is a kinda chain store called Forbidden Planet in that there are several throughout the UK. Forbidden Planet gets in pretty much everything - at least I've never had trouble getting anything - and I'm one for buying obscure indie comics now and then.

I'm new to comics though and I've not heard this 'comic shops are bad for the comic industry' or whatever was said earlier. I don't understand. What are they doing wrong? I'm genuinely interested...

[deadspace]

As much as I hate to say it but a chain store comic shop would actually be "good" for the indistry in its way. However it would kill the LCS and harm the indy comic.

It is the chain store here where I can guarantee to get pretty much any indie comic I want. The type of comic that would maybe get just 1 other pull on ifanboy i would be confident my local comic shop (the chain one) will have it in stock. It's the indie comic shop that is less likely to stock them here.

Not that I'm pro chain stores! I'm anti-corporation and 'the man' deep down :D

[esophagus]

I don't understand. What are they doing wrong? I'm genuinely interested...What I mean primarily is that they are the only place to buy comics. People used to get into comics because they'd pick one up in line at the supermarket. Now to get into comics you have to really search them out.

Also, a lot of comic shops don't really advertise. I know two of the stores in this city don't even mention that they're comic shops outside. You have to guess or go in to find out. Advertising is where I think a chain could really pick up the slack.

There's also the problem of grumbly/bad LCBG*'s. I haven't had the trouble, and I know a lot of them are really nice, but some CBG's can scare off new customers, whether they're new to comics or just the store, pretty easily.

*Local Comic Book Guy

[deadspace]

What I mean primarily is that they are the only place to buy comics. People used to get into comics because they'd pick one up in line at the supermarket. Now to get into comics you have to really search them out.


Why don't supermarkets or other places stock comics anymore? I didn't know they ever did cos I never read them as a kid either.

I suppose thinking about it, it's a bit strange that big book shops don't stock comics (though they do have trades) when they stock practically every magazine that exists. But to be honest I'm not that bothered about getting people into Marvel & DC... I'd be more interested in pushing the indie comics. But to compare it to something I know something about - music - when it comes to indie music you have to make a big effort to find out about it and then find a place to buy it, so it's probably the same with anything. Most people don't know the underground music scene exists - and don't care either. It's usually only the people who can be bothered to search for indie music that would be interested in it anyway - may be the same for comics. I'm not of the opinion that things should be handed to people on a plate. I've done hours of research about comics online so I don't see why others can't if they have even the slightest interest there.

[jumpingjupiter]

There are like 5 people in this thread who said they started reading comics and attribute it in some way to the movies.

Cool.

[Valoharth]

The people who own the news stands in supermarkets don't like dealing with comics, they are a gamble and they come out weekly. I'm not positive but I think news stands can only keep an issue on the rack for a week or two, which is another hassle all together.

[deadspace]

The people who own the news stands in supermarkets don't like dealing with comics, they are a gamble and they come out weekly. I'm not positive but I think news stands can only keep an issue on the rack for a week or two, which is another hassle all together.

That's what I was thinking when I asked. Comics do seem like quite a bit of work for the shop workers in terms of re-stocking, ordering in new titles etc.

[Valoharth]

Yea its just like LCS, they take a gamble with anything new that pick up. But I can tell you every non LCS store that carries comics will always have a Spiderman title.

Back when I was in the 8th grade all the comics I got came from Gas Stations and K-mart (which was the best because you could get a shit load of comics for 20 bucks, like 30 back issues. Granted they were books that never sold well in shops but still when you're young it was awesome).

[llauranzoniii]

No matter how it happened, I'm glad it did. Keep reading!

Will do Josh. Just promise to keep giving us newbs good suggestions in the shows.

By the way, picked up Final Crisis #1-3 and The Dark Tower: The Gunslinger Born hardback. I'm stocked up and ready to read!!

[jumpingjupiter]

In my town, comics are sold in some grocery stores and news stands. *shrug* and at borders.

[deadspace]

In my town, comics are sold in some grocery stores and news stands. *shrug* and at borders.

as in borders book store?

not issues though, right? just trades?

[llauranzoniii]

as in borders book store?

not issues though, right? just trades?

I've never seen issues. Just trades. That's where I bought my 1st couple last weekend.

[esophagus]

Chapters, in Canada, has a rack of issues they keep in the store, but I know at the local one they're kept fairly out of the way. And at the Wal-Mart I worked at a few years ago they kept Spider-Man and one other title, but they were hidden underneath magazines and they didn't get every issue.

So they're there, just not like they used to be, and I would expect them to be totally gone before long.

But yes, trades are often found in bookstores, and I think that does wonders for the industry. I know thats how I got all my comics first starting out.

[cenquist]

Chapters keeps there issues either by the magazines or depending on the store right by the cashier counter. Every once in a while I still see the odd 7-11 with a few issues of Spider-Man or Superman.

[Valoharth]

I know the Boarders in Rapid City SD has comics in issues but they are next to the trades. I think if they moved them to more of an impulse buy spot it would do wonders. People Mag gets more impulse buys because people look through it standing in line, do the same thing with the weekly Spiderman book or if Whedon could make Buffy a weekly book and place it there I bet those comics will do well.

[JasonTodd]

All of the Borders stores in the Kansas City area have comic issues next to the magazines

[JasonTodd]

There are like 5 people in this thread who said they started reading comics and attribute it in some way to the movies.
Cool.

I would be willing to bet that many people on this board, perhaps a majority, got into comics through watching a movie or an X-men cartoon or whatever. Especially the younger people. I know that's how I got into it. I saw Batman:TAS and X-men: TAS and wanted to learn more.

[jumpingjupiter]

Yup, the Canadian equivalent of Borders sells issues. In my town they keep the spinner rack next to the magazine rack. Seems they should put it next to the graphic novel section...

And yes Jason T. I'd bet the same. One sector feeds the other. That's the way she rolls.

[jumpingjupiter]

I've never seen issues. Just trades. That's where I bought my 1st couple last weekend.

Oh, I missed your post. So do tell, what got you buying comics?

[esophagus]

Oh, I missed your post. So do tell, what got you buying comics?Hi...

Luis here.

Long time Rev3 fan. Been lurking for a long time. I just got into comics 1 week ago and I'm 30, late start I know. :eek: I've always appreciated the art but just never read them. So for some reason when listening to TRS and they talked about The Killing Joke so I decided to pick it up and fell in love. I've posted in a few other threads and love all the suggestions for the comic newbs and the embrace by everyone. Everyone has been really nice in helping out and even explaining terms and such. So thanks again!!!!
Five characters.

[denmmurray]

I would be willing to bet that many people on this board, perhaps a majority, got into comics through watching a movie or an X-men cartoon or whatever. Especially the younger people. I know that's how I got into it. I saw Batman:TAS and X-men: TAS and wanted to learn more.

So that being said, would you think that the cartoons got more people in comics than movies did, since they are appealing to the audience that would by comics in the first place?

[JasonTodd]

@denmurray

I guess I don't see why widespread cartoons on Fox or whatever are more appealing to the comics audience than The Dark Knight or any other live action movie.

Cartoons are more appealing to kids, but since it's important to get kids into comics...

[jumpingjupiter]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080814-WatchmentOneMillion.html

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080812-LevitzWatchmen.html

[ConorKilpatrick]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080814-WatchmentOneMillion.html

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080812-LevitzWatchmen.html

Again... so what? These aren't new comic book readers. These are one time graphic novel purchasers.

[jumpingjupiter]

Well, I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. But I will urge to get your mind frame out of the past and present. We're talking about speculation on what will happen. Like Mr. Levitz I believe that we are living in an as yet unprecedented (in comics history not marketing history) era.

"Paul Levitz: I think you have the confluence of some extraordinary events. You get this moment where the mass audience has really enjoyed a run of superhero movies that almost, one after the other, upped the ante. I think it’s fair to argue that Iron Man is the best of the Marvel movies, if not ever, at least since the first Spider-Man movie, and surprised people at that, because they didn’t know Iron Man well. You then top that, in my humble opinion, with The Dark Knight, and then, at the moment that you’re doing that, you toss in a brief taste of the Watchmen in the trailer, which looks like nothing we’ve ever seen on the planet before.

I think that if you’re a civilian looking at it, it’s almost as though, for the very first time, you’re being invited in to a banquet of Japanese food. It’s colorful, and you sort of recognize it, and you’re drawn to it, so you want to pull yourself up to the table to try some. Combine that with the fact that the media has been celebrating Watchmen a lot in the last few years – with Entertainment Weekly and Time recognizing it for its merits – there’s a certain amount of Watchmen buzz in the ether where people had heard the title and the word...and then they see the trailer, which is topped off with the tagline that it’s the most acclaimed graphic novel of all time. One of our guys said it best, I think – “We couldn’t have cut a better commercial for the graphic novel if we’d tried.” I think that’s a very fair statement.

Clearly, it’s worked beyond any recognition in history. We had a dinner of the buying teams from all the major bookstore franchises, and no one there or on our Random house sales side could remember a trailer from any film having the kind of mathematical effect on book sales that we’re experiencing with Watchmen. And it’s coming at a time where, thanks to the transition to Random House, our baseline sales of our whole line of graphic novels are just rocketing up every month to start with. Put this on as an accelerant, and we’re reprinting four to eight titles a week. The numbers are just going up phenomenally.

The most important thing in the Watchmen situation is that in the last 20 years, any retailer that you talked to would tell you that they used Watchmen as one of their key gateway drugs. A new customer, who’s in their late teens or early 20s comes in store, says they’d like to read a comic book, they’re handed a copy of Watchmen, and in many cases, tell them if they don’t like it, they’ll give them their money back. The customer comes back a week later saying, “That was good – can I get more?” and you’ve got a graphic novel reader, or maybe in the best case, a regular customer for the periodicals as well."

We’ve created a possibility that we’re really raising the tide for everything that we’re doing. That happen in 1989 with the first Batman movie with Tim Burton, and it feels like it’s happening again now. We’re in much better shape to take advantage of it with broader distribution and more sophisticated marketing, better inventory management – everything we’ve been working on for the past 20 years. This could very easily be a giant game-changer for the entire industry, and we’d like to think that DC is better positioned than any of our competitors to take advantage of it." -> end quote

Now before you reach for your trusty, "there was a little boost in '89 but it went back down" argument. My point is that the situation is very different than in '89 in that there has been a decade of trend towards comic book movies in general and we are not yet at the apex of that trend. Where as in '89 we had a Batman franchise revived. Read the article more carefully because Paul, who has access to a lot more info than any of us seems to anticipate a surge in comic sales and boasts that DC is ready to capitalize on it.

I could way off, but nothing anyone has said is convincing me that I am. The more i look at it the more convinced I am that a surge is the most likely outcome.

Meh. I'm bored of this now.

[deadspace]

Good argument. Wasn't convinced til that last post... well, i'm still not completely convinced but it does make sense and seem possible.

There's no reason why someone wouldn't read the Watchmen and love it and therefore seek out more by the same author. And that right there is a likely new comic fan.

[jumpingjupiter]

It's not my argument, it's Paul Levitz's. Just didn't want anyone to think I was taking credit for his quote. But thanks :)

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/08/14/watchmen-900000-300000/


900 000 !!!

[deadspace]

lol, ok well good argument to support your own argument... or something :D