what horse shit

[bird603568]

so we watched this in art class today http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1993368502337678412&q=killing+us+softly&hl=en

does anyone else feel this is total crap?

[masherscf]

You're so eloquent Bird. I can't help but think you've summed up your argument in the best way possible. However, why don't you elaborate a little, for us morons, what exactly you feel is shit from a horse.

[klitzy]

You're so eloquent Bird. I can't help but think you've summed up your argument in the best way possible. However, why don't you elaborate a little, for us morons, what exactly you feel is shit from a horse.

Just watch and you'll see...

[herod]

You're so eloquent Bird. I can't help but think you've summed up your argument in the best way possible. However, why don't you elaborate a little, for us morons, what exactly you feel is shit from a horse.

Did you even watch it?

[viscountradu]

so we watched this in art class today http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1993368502337678412&q=killing+us+softly&hl=en

does anyone else feel this is total crap?

yes, having to watch a 34 minute video to answer your question is total crap.

[bird603568]

yes, having to watch a 34 minute video to answer your question is total crap.

you could tell in about 3 minutes that it was crap

[briangilmore]

the subject matter is, in fact, anything but crap and is something, that although presented in a melodramatic fashion at times, and even kind of hyped by the tone the woman takes. but the research is solid, the points are valid, and advertisers consider stuff like this b/c it works. the video's a little outdated...actually REALLY outdated, but if you take it with a grain of salt it's brilliant, and if you ask me, a little obvious and even worse nowadays.

[bird603568]

you dont sense any man hateing at all? or total biasness or that she starts to make shit up and/or over look stuff

[briangilmore]

you dont sense any man hateing at all? or total biasness or that she starts to make shit up and/or over look stuff
Yeah, i said that she does take it a little overboard. and any manhating in that is only as much woman hating as there had been going on up until stuff like this starting coming out.

sure, it comes off a little biased and defensive, but with really good reason. this was made late 70's then in the 80's and the research, like i said above, is SOLID, proven and totally legit. I'm a sociology major so i've had to watch this a few times. She's right. Even if you don't like how she says it. look beyond how annoying (even I find her really annoying and hate when people can't present something in an even handed manner) she is and look at the content. she's right.

[bird603568]

wtf my art teacher said it was made in 2000 but i guess thats why hes not a soc professor.

[briangilmore]

wtf my art teacher said it was made in 2000 but i guess thats why hes not a soc professor.


oh no way man, my bad, this one is 2000, it's her third installment of the exact same message. a good one, but at this point, a kind of tired one. sure it's still going on, but change isn't going to happen overnight. it's going to happen gradually as it HAS been with the Dove ads,

she's right to some degree...once again...look at the content and not her examples.

save yourself 35 minutes and read this:

women are objectified and advertising that manipulates and plays on our gender roles and cultural stereotypes only perpetuates both of those and it hurts our society...

my message to the woman making this:
thank you. you are amazing. you've helped a lot of people in a lot of ways. just please woman, stop showing us ads and commercials from 1992 if you want us to be with you, the problem is being focused on lately more than ever and instead of creating "awareness" create a difference, like the advertisers at Dove or most things on the Oxygen network. Do something other than make fun of 80's ads. Change, because your work has been noted and you are no longer necessary.

p.s. 1. we're not going to replace a picture of nice boobies with cartoon boobies
2. that collage at the beginning kinda turned me on.

[veej]

she's right to some degree...once again...look at the content and not her examples.

True. They (researchers, not feminists) have actually done research and most of this stuff is true. But personally I think they think about this stuff way too in depth, and will never get more people to understand it if they present it with the attitude they have about it.

I really did find the pans across the audience to be funny though. There was like one guy every 50th seat.

[thefast]

Well this sounds like something I'd be interested in if it weren't for the girl that everyone keeps talking about. So what we need to do in this situation is have briangilmore and jonathonlondon argue about the topic furiously until everyone understands what's going on.

[xxxthundercatxxx]

I jacked off to that video.

[briangilmore]

I jacked off to that video.

sadly, i kinda had to afterwards...

I agree with Veej, though, that it really does just need to be presented in a better way. A much better way. A way that plays the same cards the advertisers do, which is "here's a product, here's why this product is cool...look at the pretty woman with a cartoon like figure"...biotches like this woman just need to become advertisers themselves and create campaigns that say "here's a product, here's why this product is cool, people are normal looking, so are you, these people are using this product, so you should too"...i actually think it would HELP advertisers...and it IS. They just need to do it more...but just like racism, sexism is never going away. Ever. At least not in any of our lifetimes at this point, so we just need to lessen it and accept that it will continue to exist, yet if we downplay it and take its power away, only then will change eventually come. but unlike this woman can't understand, that shit don't happen over night muthafuka.

[shmoo]

I don't think she ever said she expected things to change overnight. You're all watching with your own biases and for some reason finding this thing man-hating, and I don't see why. What comment in particular made you think she hates men?

my message to the woman making this:
thank you. you are amazing. you've helped a lot of people in a lot of ways. just please woman, stop showing us ads and commercials from 1992 if you want us to be with you, the problem is being focused on lately more than ever and instead of creating "awareness" create a difference, like the advertisers at Dove or most things on the Oxygen network. Do something other than make fun of 80's ads. Change, because your work has been noted and you are no longer necessary.

p.s. 1. we're not going to replace a picture of nice boobies with cartoon boobies
I would disagree and say that these kind of ads are proliferating. Only by being educated about the effects that ads have on us can we avoid those efffects.

Ands boobies practically are cartoon with the amount of digital editing that goes into them.

[briangilmore]

I don't think she ever said she expected things to change overnight. You're all watching with your own biases and for some reason finding this thing man-hating, and I don't see why. What comment in particular made you think she hates men?


I would disagree and say that these kind of ads are proliferating. Only by being educated about the effects that ads have on us can we avoid those efffects.

Ands boobies practically are cartoon with the amount of digital editing that goes into them.



i totally agree about the boobies, which is part of the reason i said that cartoon boobies'll never happen.

also, i went in with no bias, but once i see that people have some, i get some too.

And the ads i was talking about would totally help. a lot. and the thing is that if you take any communication, advertising, or anything else class that has to do with any media at all...the only thing you learn nowadays is about the media and particularly advertising's negative effects on our view of women and minorities, and it's a tired subject that is at this point common knowledge. it's in textbooks, cool. so now she's got to stop treating it like it's something new and a great discovery when it's not and she needs to start ADDING to her material, to her proof, and to her argument, cause her message is great, she's just falling behind the times herself and her credibility is falling with her.


i fear a regression of all this back to 80's machismo type crap, and people like her are both the problem and the solution. she needs to start leaning more towards the solution.

[narco]

I think a lot of the ads she examines is pushing it a bit. Part of me does wonder though: would people still listen to her if she weighed 400 lbs?

[briangilmore]

I think a lot of the ads she examines is pushing it a bit. Part of me does wonder though: would people still listen to her if she weighed 400 lbs?


nope. why? because she's right. OOOOOoOoOoOoOoOo!

[satori]

I agree with Veej, though, that it really does just need to be presented in a better way. A much better way. A way that plays the same cards the advertisers do, which is "here's a product, here's why this product is cool...look at the pretty woman with a cartoon like figure"...biotches like this woman just need to become advertisers themselves and create campaigns that say "here's a product, here's why this product is cool, people are normal looking, so are you, these people are using this product, so you should too"...i actually think it would HELP advertisers...and it IS. They just need to do it more...but just like racism, sexism is never going away. Ever. At least not in any of our lifetimes at this point, so we just need to lessen it and accept that it will continue to exist, yet if we downplay it and take its power away, only then will change eventually come. but unlike this woman can't understand, that shit don't happen over night muthafuka.

I disagree with the method you suggest... then they're just as bad as the advertisers... but I agree with the idea that this woman is not good at giving her message. Personally I'd like to see Spalding Grey doing it with those crazy stories that he used to give... sadly Spalding Grey died 2 years ago so it would probably be even more boring watching him rot as opposed to listening to this woman... unless you did something like magot racing.

[ariastar]

As a woman, I can testify to the effects that advertising has on us. The image if beauty is unobtainable because it's not real, and all too often men expect us to be as perfect as what they see on magazine covers. We are objectified to an insane degree. I get freaking sick and tired of guys wanting me for one thing, and behaving as if it's what I want because all the propaganda ingrained itself into my mind that it's supposed to be what I want. A lot of advertising is created to tear on our self esteem, then to exploit the vulnerability by making us believe that we might achieve this perfection with this product or that. I've suffered from bulimia and occasionally go on a diet of ephedra and juice for a week or two trying to be what society says I should be. I nearly killed myself earlier this year after popping eight ephedra in an hour. Even if one doesn't read magazines, the images are out there.

Bird, if you ever have a daughter, you will see this video differently. All that's horse shit is that we are objectified like this.

[briangilmore]

As a woman, I can testify to the effects that advertising has on us. The image if beauty is unobtainable because it's not real, and all too often men expect us to be as perfect as what they see on magazine covers. We are objectified to an insane degree. I get freaking sick and tired of guys wanting me for one thing, and behaving as if it's what I want because all the propaganda ingrained itself into my mind that it's supposed to be what I want. A lot of advertising is created to tear on our self esteem, then to exploit the vulnerability by making us believe that we might achieve this perfection with this product or that. I've suffered from bulimia and occasionally go on a diet of ephedra and juice for a week or two trying to be what society says I should be. I nearly killed myself earlier this year after popping eight ephedra in an hour. Even if one doesn't read magazines, the images are out there.

Bird, if you ever have a daughter, you will see this video differently. All that's horse shit is that we are objectified like this.

dude, read the thread, we all agree.

[freecajunlove]

I enjoy sexy ads.

[xibalba]

As long as there horny men and women posing for them the ads will be around for awhile. All about greed those companies don't care about what people think as long as they make a buck even if its by exploiting a woman.

[djhyjak]

The lady in the video is perverting the truth to fit her agenda. Yes agency's are asked by their clients to exploit the desires of the public. Men like hot chics its so if you want to sell to us put a hot chic in it. Women love to feel superior so if you wanna sell to them show how a bumbling male cant do what they can do easy, and what i find the saddest is the fact that the most exploitive ads are for womens products.

And AriaStar guys want just one thing from you cause your hot, not because of advertising. We don't need the ad world to be horn dogs its just nature. And as males we dont seem to pay much attention to how we are represented in advertising . Having worked in the ad biz for 5 years til i wanted my own biz, i learned first hand how these ads come about and how much study they do to make sure they get into your heads.

[baldmonkey]

Yes, ads and commercials are often sexistic and degrading towards women. However the ads and commercials are only the symptoms, not the disease. The world of marketing is mostly just a reflection of the rest of society. When men and women finally are equal you will see that this kind of ads will be margenalized.

[ariastar]

Yes, ads and commercials are often sexistic and degrading towards women. However the ads and commercials are only the symptoms, not the disease. The world of marketing is mostly just a reflection of the rest of society. When men and women finally are equal you will see that this kind of ads will be margenalized.

Ads play into this as more than just the symptoms. The more they're seen, the more women are seen as objects.

[diela]

I've said for years that we don't just need to do away with advertising that objectifies women (which it does) but we need to do away with advertising altogether. It not only promotes stereotypes, it consistently portrays people as stupid, slobbering idiots whose lives aren't complete unless they *buy* something. They promote the idea that your life will somehow be magically perfect if you buy product X. When your life is crappy, there is no "miracle cure" and you're not going to fix it with material goods. Advertising is just turning people into acquisitive basket cases who don't understand why shopping doesn't make them feel better.

Of course advertising will never go away. But it may change form.

I don't know what to think of the current trend of product placement. On the one hand, it has no opportunity to send a message the way the typical 30-second commercial does. On the other hand it's more sneaky, as advertising disguises itself as program content.... such as the way Chip Estin from "The Office" got a new job at Staples, while other workers used products emblazoned with the Staples logo.

[masherscf]

Did you even watch it?

I watched every frame.

I also ready every word of Bird idiotic critique. Indeed, I lost a few brain cells doing so.

I would accuse Bird of trolling if I didn't suspect that his feeling are sincere and he really expects that his opinion is so obvious that it needs no explaination. I can't really voice my full evaluation because doing so would violate several forums rules against flaming.

In any case, I truly couldn't tell if Bird was saying that the video itself was "horse shit", the idea the adverts reinforce negative female stereotypes was "horse shit" or Bird was just upset at the entire state of the western world and was using the video as supporting documentation.

Indeed, the only thing that I could tell was "Horse Shit" was the original posting itself.

you could tell in about 3 minutes that it was crap

Here, we get to the root of the matter. Bird watched for about 3 minutes and decided to become completely defensive. I doubt Bird listened to a word the woman said after that.

I didn't find the video anti-male. She did use the juxtaposition of equivalent male and female references in order to better illustrate the underlying hostility toward women. This comparison required the contruction of images and copy that were suitably hostile toward men. The fact Bird completely missed that point does not speak well of his cognative prowess.

[thefast]

I didn't find the video anti-male. She did use the juxtaposition of equivalent male and female references in order to better illustrate the underlying hostility toward women. This comparison required the contruction of images and copy that were suitably hostile toward men. The fact Bird completely missed that point does not speak well of his cognative prowess.

Yeah, it was all just "This is what it's like for women, and this is what it would be like if it were the same for men, but it's not like that for men". In fact she even said that she didn't wish for it to be the same for men, so someone's definitely gonna have to quote incredibly feminist and dyke comments in order to prove that she's anti-male.

Also, she said buttsex! Jump to 24:09

[masherscf]

Yeah, it was all just "This is what it's like for women, and this is what it would be like if it were the same for men, but it's not like that for men". In fact she even said that she didn't wish for it to be the same for men, so someone's definitely gonna have to quote incredibly feminist and dyke comments in order to prove that she's anti-male.

Also, she said buttsex! Jump to 24:09

I was actually amused by the audience reaction shots that showed the women looking appalled and shaking their heads in disapproval.

"Bad, Bad, Bad men!"

[klitzy]

This is horse shit....If she doesn't like the way women are being advertised...Dont ****ing tell the men. Im sorry but go talk to the women who are in the ads. If they dont model themselves than there will be no bad ads. I hate women like this.

[briangilmore]

This is horse shit....If she doesn't like the way women are being advertised...Dont ****ing tell the men. Im sorry but go talk to the women who are in the ads. If they dont model themselves than there will be no bad ads. I hate women like this.


klitzy, read what i wrote in the rest of the thread *sigh*

[masherscf]

The woman makes a compelling argument. The weakness is that it doesn't address the notion that this sort of advertising works. Blaming the advertisers for using ads that work seems a little weird to me.

Another case is negative advertising in political campaigns. Everyobe hates the negative advertisements. They admittedly distort and even lie about reality. But it works.

Of course, we do blame spammers for SPAM and not the people that make SPAM profitable by responding.

Still, "Horse Shit" is a little unwarranted.

[klitzy]

klitzy, read what i wrote in the rest of the thread *sigh*

I did...What about it?

[djhyjak]

I have to say the video is horse puckky , not because of her topic but because of how its delivered. She doesn't come of as sincere, and all she does is draw her own conclusions and takes parts of facts out of context. If she had some real world facts, some expert evidence and some actual alternatives to this form of advertising then i would say different.

Women are definitely exploited in media and advertising but i already knew this and i don't think she could convince a person who doesn't see it that way. She seems more like the pandering type, a person who doesn't really want change they just wanna make some change (cash) by preaching to the choir. Shes no Gloria Steinem .

[masherscf]

If she had some real world facts, some expert evidence ...

I hate to burst your bubble but Dr. Jean Kilbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Kilbourne) has a doctorate on the subject. That means she's recognized as an expert and her opinions are legally admissible in any court as evidence. The moral of the story: Nothing gives "horse shit" opinions weight like a Doctoral degree. Ph.D. stands for Piled Higher and Deeper.

[tokenuser]

I hate to burst your bubble but Dr. Jean Kilbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Kilbourne) has a doctorate on the subject. That means she's recognized as an expert and her opinions are legally admissible in any court as evidence. The moral of the story: Nothing gives "horse shit" opinions weight like a Doctoral degree. Ph.D. stands for Piled Higher and Deeper.Bull Shit, More Shit, Piled High and Deep.

Yep. She is credible, whether you agree with her opinions or not.

[thefast]

I hate to burst your bubble but Dr. Jean Kilbourne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Kilbourne) has a doctorate on the subject. That means she's recognized as an expert and her opinions are legally admissible in any court as evidence. The moral of the story: Nothing gives "horse shit" opinions weight like a Doctoral degree. Ph.D. stands for Piled Higher and Deeper.

People can have a Ph.D. all they want, but that still doesn't add to their ability to notice any of the flaws in their own argument, nor does it take away from anyone else's ability to notice those flaws and come up with completely valid points in response to them.

[masherscf]

People can have a Ph.D. all they want, but that still doesn't add to their ability to notice any of the flaws in their own argument, nor does it take away from anyone else's ability to notice those flaws and come up with completely valid points in response to them.

You guys are so jaded by the whole blogosphere talk-radio culture, you incapable of recognizing when someone has academic credentials. This presentation wasn't made for entertainment. It is an academic presentation that is presumably backed up with papers that are subjected to rigorous peer-review. They don't hand out doctorates in a box of cracker jacks. If her facts and sources were not properly vetted, she wouldn't have a job.

In fact, since she presumably went through a process of peer review before presenting her research, I doubt anyone in this forum, including myself (I have a Ph.D.), are qualified to mount any sort of valid academic argument debunking the research.

None of this makes the conclusion correct and it doesn't change that we can have a meaningful conversation about it amongst ourselves. It does mean that we can't attack her research on the grounds of credibility.

[ariastar]

I don't know what to think of the current trend of product placement. On the one hand, it has no opportunity to send a message the way the typical 30-second commercial does. On the other hand it's more sneaky, as advertising disguises itself as program content.... such as the way Chip Estin from "The Office" got a new job at Staples, while other workers used products emblazoned with the Staples logo.

In Save the Last Dance, the father holds up a box and slowly says, "Swanson Hungry Man Dinner." That always annoyed the frak out of me.

You know Mars was first approached about M&Ms for ET, but turned it down? BIG mistake. Reese's took the offer and made a killing with the promotions they got for it.

[big-doze]

In Save the Last Dance, the father holds up a box and slowly says, "Swanson Hungry Man Dinner." That always annoyed the frak out of me.

You know Mars was first approached about M&Ms for ET, but turned it down? BIG mistake. Reese's took the offer and made a killing with the promotions they got for it.


Yo, you want product placement, I've got one word for you: The Island. I love this movie, mainly because it has nothing resembling a story or characters to get in the way of the rip-roarin' action. The BEST part of the film, however, is getting a group of friends together and drinking every time you see a blatant product placement.

There's a two minute speech about some BMW concept car, a shot of the X-Box logo in a post-apocolyptic future, and a lovely shot of a Michalobe... Micelo... whatever, bottle as Ewan's hand moves into the frame. He proceeds to enjoy it's robust flavor, feeling refreshed and invigorated. Priceless.

[bird603568]

personally what people i know say influences me alot more than any ad does

[fluxcapacitor]

It does mean that we can't attack her research on the grounds of credibility.
This is the drome - we can attack anyone at any time for any reason.

[briangilmore]

You guys are so jaded by the whole blogosphere talk-radio culture, you incapable of recognizing when someone has academic credentials. This presentation wasn't made for entertainment. It is an academic presentation that is presumably backed up with papers that are subjected to rigorous peer-review. They don't hand out doctorates in a box of cracker jacks. If her facts and sources were not properly vetted, she wouldn't have a job.

In fact, since she presumably went through a process of peer review before presenting her research, I doubt anyone in this forum, including myself (I have a Ph.D.), are qualified to mount any sort of valid academic argument debunking the research.

None of this makes the conclusion correct and it doesn't change that we can have a meaningful conversation about it amongst ourselves. It does mean that we can't attack her research on the grounds of credibility.

I am in total agreeance with this clown. I said that her research cannot be questioned. Sick.

what i DID say was that her presentation and cause could and should be different. otherwise she just hurts the cause, cause she's laid the foundations for what she wanted in all American Universities (as it seems she is targeting American media), now just go out and DO something about that...which i said was to go out and counter-advertise, if you will.

that's what i said klitzy, and it debunks your stuff cause you're not thinking about it, she's totally right and it can't be debated, b/c it's at this point elementary social theory, and no matter how insecure most males are about themselves, it doesn't debunk the hard research of an educated woman...so what needs to change is the ADVERTISERS. Models are models and they're not going to stop modeling, and it's even a noble profession in some ways...it's the way in which we USE the models that has to be changed. and that's what i'm trying to say, cause if you change the face of advertising, you change the face of modeling and it's working.

Even at the last NY Fashion week some women were sent home b/c they were "too skinny", and full figured (well...semi-model-normal...not lane bryant..YET) are on the up and up and i think it should be a matter of time. people like her have helped a lot, but she needs to amplify her efforts, not let them plateau.

*grows breasts*

seriously though. she's right.

[satansmagichat]

Brian Gilmore: Fighter for Women's rights. I'm burning my bra for you, man.

[ariastar]

Brian Gilmore: Fighter for Women's rights. I'm burning my bra for you, man.

And I'm on the board of directors of an international fathers' rights organization fighting for the rights of men. Go figure.

Models are models partially because they are told they should be as teenagers, and they want to be desirable and seen as pretty so that guys will like them.

[baldmonkey]

And the only thing you can do to change the advertisement is to change the behavior of the target group or make some other segment of the market more preferable to market to. So either horny men stop thinking with their balls and acting with their money or females need to become more attractive to market towards. Or at least, if you see a skinny photoshoped model in a marketing camping for female underwear, or any other product marketed towards women, do not buy that brand.

[thefast]

I am in total agreeance with this clown. I said that her research cannot be questioned. Sick.

what i DID say was that her presentation and cause could and should be different. otherwise she just hurts the cause, cause she's laid the foundations for what she wanted in all American Universities (as it seems she is targeting American media), now just go out and DO something about that...which i said was to go out and counter-advertise, if you will.

that's what i said klitzy, and it debunks your stuff cause you're not thinking about it, she's totally right and it can't be debated, b/c it's at this point elementary social theory, and no matter how insecure most males are about themselves, it doesn't debunk the hard research of an educated woman...so what needs to change is the ADVERTISERS. Models are models and they're not going to stop modeling, and it's even a noble profession in some ways...it's the way in which we USE the models that has to be changed. and that's what i'm trying to say, cause if you change the face of advertising, you change the face of modeling and it's working.

Even at the last NY Fashion week some women were sent home b/c they were "too skinny", and full figured (well...semi-model-normal...not lane bryant..YET) are on the up and up and i think it should be a matter of time. people like her have helped a lot, but she needs to amplify her efforts, not let them plateau.

*grows breasts*

seriously though. she's right.

Yeah, the thing is that advertisers aren't going to stop doing something that works. I mean, this chick has been campaigning for the past 20 or so years and even today we're still seeing the same kind of ads with the same kind of problems. She's said that some ads have gotten better recently, but that they're still a big problem even today, and I think that's because all she's really been doing is making people choose between not objectifying women or not making money. So, like you said, she needs to stop thinking that her ideas are so damned revolutionary since everyone already knows that ads objectify women, and she needs to start showing that not objectifying women can bring in lots of sales too.

Is that what you were talking about, or did you have something else in mind?

[masherscf]

I am in total agreeance with this clown.

MasherSCF?
http://www.clown-monello.de/img/monello_clown.jpg

[inthraller]

You guys are so jaded by the whole blogosphere talk-radio culture, you incapable of recognizing when someone has academic credentials. This presentation wasn't made for entertainment. It is an academic presentation that is presumably backed up with papers that are subjected to rigorous peer-review. They don't hand out doctorates in a box of cracker jacks. If her facts and sources were not properly vetted, she wouldn't have a job.

In fact, since she presumably went through a process of peer review before presenting her research, I doubt anyone in this forum, including myself (I have a Ph.D.), are qualified to mount any sort of valid academic argument debunking the research.

None of this makes the conclusion correct and it doesn't change that we can have a meaningful conversation about it amongst ourselves. It does mean that we can't attack her research on the grounds of credibility.

You do realize she DOSEN'T have a Ph.D don't you? She has a Ed.D. More than likely, her doctorate has nothing to do with gender. It's quite foolish to assume because someone has a docorate in something that anything they write about should not be questioned.

[bird603568]

also the one with the girl tring to get her pants on is for a phone they just didnt show it all

[masherscf]

You do realize she DOSEN'T have a Ph.D don't you? She has a Ed.D. More than likely, her doctorate has nothing to do with gender. It's quite foolish to assume because someone has a docorate in something that anything they write about should not be questioned.

I never said she had a Ph.D. (look closely, I chose my words carefully) I said that I have a Ph.D. An Ed.D. is a doctoral degree. She is a doctor. Her presentation was strictly academic and as such it is questioned, but by her peers. That's the nature of academic arguments. However, this is clearly the subject of her life's work. She's no doubt been studying it for longer than some of you guys have been alive.

When people with doctorates write stuff in blogs and in forums is okay to question what they write.

However, scholarly publication is another matter.

I thought I'd post this except from her biography. This women is smart and I lot of people listen to what she has to say.

Kilbourne’s academic credentials include a B.A. in English from Wellesley College and a doctorate in education from Boston University. Upon her graduation, she received an award from Wellesley that enabled her to spend three years in Europe, working for the British Broadcasting Corporation in London and for a French film company in Paris. She has been a Visiting Research Scholar at the Wellesley Centers for Women since 1984. She has served on many national boards of directors and advisory councils, including those of ACME (Action Coalition for Media Education), DADs (Dads & Daughters), the Junior League, the National Sexual Violence Resource Center, the Media Education Foundation, the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, and the Teen Talking Circles Project.

She has received many awards, including the Myra Sadker Equity Award and awards from the Academy for Eating Disorders, the Entertainment Industries Council, the National Council on Alcoholism, the Women’s Action Alliance, and the National Organization for Women. In 2004 she was given the keys to Kansas City and received an honorary doctorate from Westfield State College that proclaimed, “Through research informed by a deep sense of justice, your insights lead us from consumerism to consciousness.” She also received a most unusual tribute in 2004 when an all-female punk rock band in Canada named itself Kilbourne in her honor. In 1995 she received the WIN (Women’s Image Now) Award from the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (AFTRA). Previous recipients include Ida Lupino, Barbara Walters, and Betty Furness. The presenter of this award said, “No one in the world has done more to improve the image of women in the media than Jean Kilbourne.”

[satansmagichat]

Models are models partially because they are told they should be as teenagers, and they want to be desirable and seen as pretty so that guys will like them.

And they're too stupid to get a real job.

[diela]

And they're too stupid to get a real job.

I don't know... as much as people complain about their real jobs, I think getting paid to stand around looking pretty is a fairly smart way to make a living if someone is willing to pay you for it.

Besides, gorgeous women in an office setting are rarely taken seriously.

[masherscf]

Besides, gorgeous women in an office setting are rarely taken seriously.

Funny, men often only notice women who are smart, pretty or both. Women who are pretty and smart are often not known for their smarts. This fosters the impression that pretty women are never smart. Ironic for me, working in Mathematics, the prettiest women are often also the most brilliant.

[the-ferg]

I think the real problem this video shows is the lack of critical thinking society has. The presenter provides no real proof that the problem exists, since examples of sexist ads only shows that there's sexism in advertising, not that it's causing it. I'm sure there are people who will blindly accept the claims in this video as true, without being skeptical at all. This lack of critical thinking is far worse for society than any cultural problems advertising causes, and it could even be a large part in causing the problems in the first place.

On the topic of advertising, one big question I have is the chicken or the egg question: is it the advertising causing the cultural views or the cultural views causing the advertising? Though advertising most likely has some affect on our culture, it doesn't mean it's the root cause, and is more a representation of what the culture believes. I'd really like to see the research on this, cause I have no idea how one would go about testing this accurately.

Also, isn't this quite like video games causing violence?

[thefast]

I never said she had a Ph.D. (look closely, I chose my words carefully) I said that I have a Ph.D. An Ed.D. is a doctoral degree. She is a doctor. Her presentation was strictly academic and as such it is questioned, but by her peers. That's the nature of academic arguments. However, this is clearly the subject of her life's work. She's no doubt been studying it for longer than some of you guys have been alive.

When people with doctorates write stuff in blogs and in forums is okay to question what they write.

However, scholarly publication is another matter.

I thought I'd post this except from her biography. This women is smart and I lot of people listen to what she has to say.

Well what do you think of the idea that her ideas are nothing new and that they're no longer needed? Or are you just here to tell people that she does in fact know how to argue whatever case she has, be it out of date or not?

[klitzy]

I think the real problem this video shows is the lack of critical thinking society has. The presenter provides no real proof that the problem exists, since examples of sexist ads only shows that there's sexism in advertising, not that it's causing it. I'm sure there are people who will blindly accept the claims in this video as true, without being skeptical at all. This lack of critical thinking is far worse for society than any cultural problems advertising causes, and it could even be a large part in causing the problems in the first place.

On the topic of advertising, one big question I have is the chicken or the egg question: is it the advertising causing the cultural views or the cultural views causing the advertising? Though advertising most likely has some affect on our culture, it doesn't mean it's the root cause, and is more a representation of what the culture believes. I'd really like to see the research on this, cause I have no idea how one would go about testing this accurately.

Also, isn't this quite like video games causing violence?

Thank you for truth...

[masherscf]

Well what do you think of the idea that her ideas are nothing new and that they're no longer needed? Or are you just here to tell people that she does in fact know how to argue whatever case she has, be it out of date or not?

Actually, I don't agree with her much at all. I think that advertiser use techniques that work. I think that they work because they work into stereotypes not because they establish them. I think the women in advertisements are made to look perfect because woman want perfection. I think women are sex objects in ads because that's what men pay attention to. It's a problem with the human beast not the advertising.

That being said, if I was at the women's presentation, I would sit quietly and applaud. Why? She would never presume to come to my Algebra presentation down the hall and start commenting publicly about things she hasn't studied. So neither will I.

I have no problem with you guys trash talking her theory. I draw the line at people saying her theory is unsupported or that she isn't a credible expert. Despite the brevity of the presentation, it's only the tip of the iceberg. She's done years of peer-reviewed research that supports her ideas. That doesn't mean we can't pick at it informally. But insulting her academic integrity is no called for.