Kirkman Dropped Some Knowledge.

[kaylon]

I didn't think it was possible for me to like Kirkman more,and then he does this:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17705

What do y'all think? I say Amen.

[zombox]

This is an extention of what Kirkman has been saying for a while now. He's talked about it on the iFanboy show once or twice. For my part, I hope he succeeds.

[conanobrien]

I love Kirkman's passion for comics.

[denmmurray]

Wow...that's awesome. I think he honestly takes comic books as a medium more serious than anyone else in the industry wants people to understand the power that they could possibly have. He's now my favorite creator.

[hank41]

this just proves even further that Kirkman is the ultimate "super-fan" that knows what's right for comics

[kahunablair]

I haven't watched it yet, but you know what I find REALLY funny?

The iFanboy proper discussion has some major, Anti-Kirkman talk going on. Here its the complete opposite.

I wonder if there is a reason behind that.

[gungadin]

I haven't watched it yet, but you know what I find REALLY funny?

The iFanboy proper discussion has some major, Anti-Kirkman talk going on. Here its the complete opposite.

I wonder if there is a reason behind that.

I dunno, I find that proper has less commitment to it. You say something about an article or post, in and out, no real socializing (you know?)...

There is more internet, here is more community...

[hank41]

true, that might be it. this is definetely more of a community

[liamhoward]

Hats off to Kirkman, I love the analogy about people watching films and only wanting to make Pulp Fiction 2.

[mrmister]

Like that he cares so much about comics. Like that he is starting this discussion. However, this did not make me like him more at all, probably the opposite actually. I dislike when he claims to speak for everybody, and acts like he knows what is good for people and that he knows what will make people happier. Agree with some of his sentiment, but at times in that speech he came off BAD. And telling DC/Marvel to leave adult books to other publishers, come on man. DC and Marvel should try and do a better job at brining in a younger audience, but don't act like they need to totally restructure everything and tailor all their main continuity stories to a younger crowd. And while continuity can be a problem for new readers it isn't impossible to jump in, both DC and Marvel offer plenty of good jumping on points on their major titles. He is right that writing for either of the big two shouldn't have to be the pinnacle of somebody's career, but he could have made that point and some of his other good points without the junk and without acting like comics needs a savior and it is him. Also funny that this comes right after he becomes a partner at Image.

Listen to the whole Word Balloon podcast too

http://cdn2.libsyn.com/wordballoon/WBkirkmanmission.mp3?nvb=20080814124742&nva=20080815124742&t=066d8243b42e14d6e07b0

[hank41]

yeah, kirkman on WordBalloon was great

[gobo]

Really people should just skip the video on CBR and listen to Word Balloon to get the whole story.

He comes across much more even-handed and less controversial on the subject.

Basically he just wants people who have the desire to create not feel like they've reached their apex when they get on Spider-Man and if they love making new content to take the plunge and just do it since it can be much more lucrative.

Also he feels that Dark Horse/Image/other "independents" can't reach children 1/100th as well as Marvel/DC so in order for the industry to continue to grow and thrive they HAVE to do a lot more work trying to get young people, without at the same time talking down to them.

[mrmister]

They can reach new younger readers without any of the huge changes Kirkman calls for.

[gobo]

Well clearly what they're doing right now isn't working so maybe it's time to try something new.

[mrmister]

Something new like completely changing their marketing and publishing strategy? I don't think so. Think about how many fans they would lose if DC and Marvel suddenly changed their entire approach to their main continuity books in hopes of reaching new and younger readers. None of the books now are too adult for the 15-17 year olds Kirkman is talking about. Listen to the Word Balloon Podcast he isn't talking about 10 year olds. Change the marketing strategy and the get the word out more sure, but these books are GOOD as Kirkman himself has said and for the most part they are accessible and at least to me nowhere near too adult for later teens so I don't see how his suggestions at least in this area should be seriously considered.

[conorkilpatrick]

Man, people start freaking out at the mere thought of anything changing... especially to their beloved superheroes.

I wish what Kirkman wants would come to pass.

[gungadin]

I wish what Kirkman wants would come to pass.

There's an amen in here somewhere...

[cam-]

I wish what Kirkman wants would come to pass.

Zombies taking over the world?

[kahunablair]

Zombies taking over the world?

Nope. He wants a Werewolf superhero to start patrolling the streets.

Conor is a weirdo.

[optimus187prime]

Something new like completely changing their marketing and publishing strategy? I don't think so. Think about how many fans they would lose if DC and Marvel suddenly changed their entire approach to their main continuity books in hopes of reaching new and younger readers. None of the books now are too adult for the 15-17 year olds Kirkman is talking about. Listen to the Word Balloon Podcast he isn't talking about 10 year olds. Change the marketing strategy and the get the word out more sure, but these books are GOOD as Kirkman himself has said and for the most part they are accessible and at least to me nowhere near too adult for later teens so I don't see how his suggestions at least in this area should be seriously considered.

I dont think it was just a matter of age it was also a matter of continuity. Seems like one of his points is that the big two are painstakingly working to keep the continuity on track for us (older readers) and alienating them (newer readers) because of it. Which is hurting the industry as a whole by curbing the influx of new readers. At least thats one of the points I thought I heard.

[georgexjr]

If i remember correctly, they changed their continuity a couple years ago (in a way). They created the ultimate universe. It was a way to get readers hooked on books that didn't have a 40 year history to them. At first (ultimate spider-man) was aimed at a younger less mature crowd. I think Mark Millar probably changed that with x-men and later the ultimates. I am a huge marvel guy. A lot of the time i read because i do have a history with these characters. I grew up with these characters....if Chris Claremont wants to do another run on uncanny..i still buy. If Joe Quesada wants to fuck up spider man...oh wait fuck spider man. I think there are plenty of ways that marvel is hooking the young readers. They've been doing it for years. I'm 26. How'd i start reading comics? The x-men cartoon, when i was a kid. They're still doing that to this day and they have books and even little mini trades aimed at a younger crowd.

[georgexjr]

I don't need the guy who wrote battle pope sticking up for COMICS. I love his passion, but shut up and aim your war of words at people who deserve it. Aim it at one of your "partners" Todd Mcfarlane who hasn't done shit except make toys and collect baseballs for ten years. or Stan Lee for posting bulletins on myspace every five minutes. fuck....that guy is so deleted.

Anyways. Sounds like a cool dude.

[optimus187prime]

If i remember correctly, they changed their continuity a couple years ago (in a way). They created the ultimate universe. It was a way to get readers hooked on books that didn't have a 40 year history to them. At first (ultimate spider-man) was aimed at a younger less mature crowd. I think Mark Millar probably changed that with x-men and later the ultimates. I am a huge marvel guy. A lot of the time i read because i do have a history with these characters. I grew up with these characters....if Chris Claremont wants to do another run on uncanny..i still buy. If Joe Quesada wants to fuck up spider man...oh wait fuck spider man. I think there are plenty of ways that marvel is hooking the young readers. They've been doing it for years. I'm 26. How'd i start reading comics? The x-men cartoon, when i was a kid. They're still doing that to this day and they have books and even little mini trades aimed at a younger crowd.

Readers nowadays are growing up a little different. I dont neccessarily agree with what Kirkman wants to happen. I do agree that comics are not bringing in enough new readers, while it does seem comics are catering more and more towards our age group.

[georgexjr]

Readers nowadays are growing up a little different.

i totally agree with that statement.

i just got done listening to the thoughtbubble(?) thing. i think i'd like to have drinks with that guy. as long as i dont have to talk about dc or spider man.

[deadspace]

I don't need the guy who wrote battle pope sticking up for COMICS.

that's my favourite quote of the day :D

[jon_samuelson]

I think that a lot of his (Kirkman's) opinion isn't that comics aren't attracting ANY new readers, but rather that they aren't attracting ENOUGH of them. Here's some sales figures from Fantastic Four throughout the years...

1965: 330,000
1975: 220,000
1985: 240,000
1995: 110,000
2005: 50,000

I'm not saying that FF is the perfect litmus test for the whole of the comic book industry, but it's probably not a BAD example. And I would argue that there's a pretty clear trend there. And as far as I'm aware the comic industry as a whole is following pretty much the same trend. Even if we assume that only 1% of comic readers read FF, that makes for 5 million people who read comics, and that seems like an absurdly optimistic estimate. And why was FF so popular in the first place? Because it was a fresh, new, adventurous idea in 1965. I think Kirkman's right, it's ridiculous that the industry has convinced itself that writing/illustrating characters that have been around for 40, 50, 60, even 70 years is the zenith of what a creator can hope for, rather than following in the lead of Stan Lee, and Jack Kirby, and Jerry Siegel, and Joe Schuster, and Bob Kane, Bill Finger, and Will Eisner, and whoever else, by creating NEW, and EXCITING, and TIMELY characters.

I think, on some level that comics will always exist, but I don't believe that the industry will be even as healthy as it is now without some sort of remarkable change. Be that in format by a switch to a digital distribution system, or a trade only market. Or be it ask Kirkman hopes, by gearing towards a much more massive creator-owned system, using the big two as a farm for both talent and readers. Personally I think I'd vote for Kirkman's system, with a smattering of a trade-only marketplace. I guess I just appreciate that he's a big voice, with some semblance of influence, who is trying to start a discussion of how to improve the health of a hobby/industry that I absolutely adore.

[georgexjr]

i dont think i could handle digital comics.

[s1lentslayer]

It was sort of off-putting to me and I love Kirkman.

[zombox]

They can reach new younger readers without any of the huge changes Kirkman calls for.

Really? Because numbers of readers are falling, and have been, for the last decade or so. The 'Ignore it and hope it goes away' strategy has never worked anywhere else in history.

[zombox]

I fail to see how any of those guys are even relevant to the discussion. Neither of them are, meaningfully speaking, even in the world of comics anymore. What Kirkman wants is a discussion on how to improve comic books and, specifically, revive readership. This is not an easy task and it requires careful thought and planning.

As someone who operates a large book store I can testify, first hand, that customers under the age of 30 are a distinct minority for any kind of print media. That's where the trouble begins, but far from where it ends. Focusing on discerning the core reason and then growing solutions is the goal.

I don't need the guy who wrote battle pope sticking up for COMICS. I love his passion, but shut up and aim your war of words at people who deserve it. Aim it at one of your "partners" Todd Mcfarlane who hasn't done shit except make toys and collect baseballs for ten years. or Stan Lee for posting bulletins on myspace every five minutes. fuck....that guy is so deleted.

Anyways. Sounds like a cool dude.

[georgexjr]

http://www.myspace.com/stanleemyspace

p.s. it was meant to get a laugh.

[humphrey-lee]

... I think I filled the cup...

[hank41]

everybody who is intersted in this subject should listen to Brian Bendis on Word Balloon

[six-gun]

I don't need the guy who wrote battle pope sticking up for COMICS. I love his passion, but shut up and aim your war of words at people who deserve it. Aim it at one of your "partners" Todd Mcfarlane who hasn't done shit except make toys and collect baseballs for ten years. or Stan Lee for posting bulletins on myspace every five minutes. fuck....that guy is so deleted.

*slow clap*

[deadspace]

everybody who is intersted in this subject should listen to Brian Bendis on Word Balloon

Thanks for mentioning that.

I really loved Bendis' interview. It was a nice contrast to Kirkman's speech in that he seemed down-to-earth and made very sensible points.

I was really hoping someone in the industry would come back with something like this, so nice one Bendis!

[kahunablair]

Aim it at one of your "partners" Todd Mcfarlane who hasn't done shit except make toys and collect baseballs for ten years...

If I remember correctly, he did. He asked Todd at a panel why he doesn't create comics anymore. It wasn't that big of a deal because it was just "Crazy little" Kirkman, but it did happen.

[kahunablair]

Thanks for mentioning that.

I really loved Bendis' interview. It was a nice contrast to Kirkman's speech in that he seemed down-to-earth and made very sensible points.

I was really hoping someone in the industry would come back with something like this, so nice one Bendis!

I'm with you. It was nice to hear someone counter Kirkman's arguement without turning to, "Fuck this guy! Go write somemore Zombie books!"

My only problem with the Bendis interview is that he obviously got offended by the printed quote that was snipped from the Kirkman interveiw. If he listened to the interview he would have realized that it wasn't putting him down in anyway.

[hank41]

Thanks for mentioning that.

I really loved Bendis' interview. It was a nice contrast to Kirkman's speech in that he seemed down-to-earth and made very sensible points.

I was really hoping someone in the industry would come back with something like this, so nice one Bendis!

yeah, exactly. we NEED someone just as smart as Kirkman and who is in the same position (relatively) as him to present the other side.

im just so happy this discussion is happening. we need to talk about it too. almost just as much as the big wigs need to

[scoobydiesel]

this just proves even further that Kirkman is the ultimate "super-fan" that knows what's right for comics

thats what i think also...he is friggin awesome.

[hank41]

thats what i think also...he is friggin awesome.

listen to Bendis. trust me

[deadspace]

My only problem with the Bendis interview is that he obviously got offended by the printed quote that was snipped from the Kirkman interveiw. If he listened to the interview he would have realized that it wasn't putting him down in anyway.

Yeah, he definitely was offended by that but everything else he said regarding Kirkman's actual points I think were spot on. Calling it "dopey" I totally agree with. Over on the actual discussion on ifanboy I said it just sounded like Kirkman hadnt really thought through what he was saying, and I still stand by that. And I lol'd at the bit where Bendis said it was like when you have your first orgasm and it's so great that you want to tell the whole world about it :D That's *exactly* what I think is happening with Kirkman. He is so so excited about how well he is doing just now (which is great!) that he's filled with enthusiasm and this enthusiasm has just presented itself as a bit silly... saving the entire comic book industry etc. come on.

Of the 2 main points that Kirkman made

1. Marvel and DC should do more kiddy stuff - totally disagree for the same reasons as Bendis really but there are a million reasons to disagree with that one.

2. Writers should do creator-owned work, specifically when they have gained a significant amount of fans from their work on Spiderman or whatever they are doing. Again like Bendis said - does he think writers don't already KNOW they can do creator-owned stuff and that they need someone to enlighten them of this?

I think one of the best points that Bendis made was that so long as writers are creating work of high quality that they would want to buy and read themselves then everything is pretty fine!

listen to Bendis. trust me

have you changed your mind then about Kirkman's speech? :p

does anyone know of any other writers or artists that have blogged about Kirkman's "mission statement"? i'd be interested in reading/hearing more opinions.

my gut feeling is that Kirkman is going to regret making that video.

[conorkilpatrick]

does anyone know of any other writers or artists that have blogged about Kirkman's "mission statement"? i'd be interested in reading/hearing more opinions.

Steven Grant (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17785)

Randy Jarrell, Leigh Walton, Tony Moore, Lea Hernandez, C.B. Cebulski, Ed Brubaker, Brian Michael Bendis, Jay Faerber and more (http://blog.newsarama.com/2008/08/15/reactions-to-the-kirkman-video/)

Chuck Dixon, B. Clay Moore, Jonathan Luna, Beau Smith, Steve Niles, Keith Giffen, David Hine, C.B. Cebulski (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080815-TheQ-Kirkman.html)

my gut feeling is that Kirkman is going to regret making that video.

He's definitely not going to regret it. The fan reaction and the pro reaction is quite different. The pros, for the most part, understand that Kirkman was trying to start a discussion. Something that seems beyond the grasp of much of the fan reaction I've seen.

[esophagus]

The Kirkman video sparked some brief but good discussion among some of the iFanbase on Skype.

[deadspace]

He's definitely not going to regret it. The fan reaction and the pro reaction is quite different. The pros, for the most part, understand that Kirkman was trying to start a discussion. Something that seems beyond the grasp of much of the fan reaction I've seen.

I think this is a good point:

"As I've responded elsewhere, creators should be focussed on producing great, passionate, heart-felt work, whether it be for a big company or creator owned. That is all.

Just write good comics."

And this from Bendis made me laugh:

"coming soon from image comics: MASSIVE GENERALIZATIONS!!"

As far as discussion goes - discussion about what? I mean, I've been discussing this quite a bit but I don't think that was what Kirkman was aiming for. It's not achieved anything other than provide me with temporary distractions from my work. What is this discussion supposed to be achieving? Because half of what Kirkman said was stupid and the other half was pointing out the obvious. Creator-owned books are good. Ok. So what?

Leigh Walton: "I suspect their answer to Kirkman’s question of “why aren’t there more Hellboys and Walking Deads?” is “I would very much like for my book to be a Hellboy or Walking Dead, thanks for asking.”"

[conorkilpatrick]

As far as discussion goes - discussion about what? I mean, I've been discussing this quite a bit but I don't think that was what Kirkman was aiming for. It's not achieved anything other than provide me with temporary distractions from my work. What is this discussion supposed to be achieving? Because half of what Kirkman said was stupid and the other half was pointing out the obvious. Creator-owned books are good. Ok. So what?

Discussion among the people who make comics about what it is they truly want to be doing with their art.

[sullivan85]

The impression I got from Kirkman's message was of concern for the comics industry in 10-20 years. That if most Marvel and DC comics are being written for a 20-30 year old audience than who is going to be buying them in 10 years? Where will the new readers come from?

I think there will always be new comic readers, but each year I think there are less and less new younger readers (my opinion, I have no figures to back that up - and manga doesn't count!).

That said, on aroundcomics podcast some written made the point that it's much easier for a writer to take a risk and go creater owner because you can bang out a script over a weekend whereas an artist needs several weeks to deliver 22 pages of art (where he may never get paid very much for).

[denmmurray]

The impression I got from Kirkman's message was of concern for the comics industry in 10-20 years. That if most Marvel and DC comics are being written for a 20-30 year old audience than who is going to be buying them in 10 years? Where will the new readers come from?

I think there will always be new comic readers, but each year I think there are less and less new younger readers (my opinion, I have no figures to back that up - and manga doesn't count!).

That said, on aroundcomics podcast some written made the point that it's much easier for a writer to take a risk and go creater owner because you can bang out a script over a weekend whereas an artist needs several weeks to deliver 22 pages of art (where he may never get paid very much for).

I definitely think it's harder for artists to jump into the creator owned material. I almost want to say that Kirkman was appealing to only writers because do the artists actually get the same benefits as writers from the creator owned books? I imagine the only thing they get is kinda decent pay and exposure on a possibly great book.

[hank41]

have you changed your mind then about Kirkman's speech? :p



no, it's just that it would be unfair to only listen to one side of the story.

[humphrey-lee]

The thing that people keep seeming to overlook, despite that Kirkman reiterated it SEVERAL times, is that he doesn't want people to be doing just creator owned period obviously if they don't want to. It's not like he said "You have to create a Walking Dead damn you!" but that the market place as a whole isn't really so great at helping to promote stuff like that, even when there's a major company involved in the process. Seriously, when's the last time you really saw anyone at DC other than a Vertigo editor or someone at a Vertigo panel at a con come out in the middle of anything and say "Oh yeah, show of hands, who's reading Scalped? Okay, the vast majority of you who didn't really should think twice about doing so." It's really almost nonsensical. It's a "Well, the fans of it are going to find it anyways so why bother?" type of deal, and that's just a pathetic way of marketing because, quite frankly and not to sound rude, most of your consumers don't really know what's always out there. Really, honest and true, that's just how it works. It's why advertising was created in the first place.

I think even though he was being really passionate about the differentiation of products, and the more "accessibility" for kids and whatnot, if you really pressed him I think he'd admit he'd more like to see something like what, say, Brubaker is doing happen to more creators. He's getting to play in the Big Two sandbox, he's getting his freedom and telling his stories, and while they might be more mature stories, I still say they're fine for probably around 14-15 and up (an age class that I think more than anything should be more focused on than even the real youngins, but that's another tangent line of thought) and then he also gets to enjoy doing Criminal which is obviously a labor of love and arguably the best thing he's ever done to this point and is mildly successful to boot. Also, I think that if you pressed Brubaker himself about his situation he'd say he's overjoyed by it, but would also somberly admit that while he's having fun with his mainline Marvel work, he'd gladly trade sales positions between Cap and Criminal without so much as an eye blink.

Really, that's kind of my stance on the market myself. I love the semi-adultness of the mainline stories we're getting, but it's obvious that for the most part, all the major writers out there doing those stories have something that is off to the side that is definitely closer to their heart's than the work for hire, and it shows in the quality. Not to say that, for example, Jason Aaron is just doing Ghost Rider because he needs to make a name and it's just a job, but it is kind of a "what the hell, why not?" situation while he's churning out one of the best books on the market with Scalped.

I can kind of see him being worried about the little, little kids - I really can. Right now, more than anything, Hollywood actually seems to be doing more towards getting kids excited by Spider-Man and Batman and so on than anything the comic book industry itself is, and that's not a bad thing for now, but it's not a good thing for if/when maybe the superhero movie "trend" for now we'll call it could eventually eat itself up. Johnny DC and the Marvel Adventures stuff is okay, but more could be done like Kirkman said. I don't know what, but there's gotta be something. Honestly, if it's not comics themselves, getting back to good cartoon saturation might be the thing. None of this "Teen Titans Go!" stuff, more like the 90's Spidey cartoon I think (because, like Kirkman said, I think kids are smart enough to know when you're talking down to them like I think a TTG tended to do from what I saw of it), but having more consistent Batman and Spidey and JLA programming until these kids hit adolescence and start buying comics hopefully. But, like I said earlier, I like having my Bru Cap and JMS Thor and Geoff Johns Supes and so on with their PG-13ishness I more yes than no think is a good compromise - but this is coming from a person who quit comics when he was 17 because they seemed too "childish" and exploitative and came back 2 1/2 years later when he realized stuff like Watchmen and Vertigo existed, so I'm pretty much exactly who Kirkman is trying to romanticize with his creator-driven renaissance.

Oh, and one last thing. Really. Seriously. Honestly and truly. Not to beat a dead mule because obviously there's a thread about this every week, but if you want kids reading comics, FIND A WAY TO BRING THE GODDAMN PRICE DOWN! You know how I started reading comics? $5 allowance a week, spinner racks at the book store and local market, and $1-1.25 books, that's how. I'm sorry, but like I twittered earlier, I looked over at my niece today who got a magazine in the mail that had to easily be 200-250 pages with a cover price of less than $5. It had to be an hour of entertainment in and of itself, even though obviously it had to be at least half ads to do that price, but if that's the cause of having an affordable price for readership, well then I think that's the price we'll just have to pay as readers. I'm sorry you have to flip past twice as many pages you don't pay attention to anyway and delay the next panel of comic by that extra second and a half, but if it means getting books down to the point where $5 gets some kid his Superman and Batman fix for the week then it needs to fucking happen. Honestly, maybe something like the "Slimline" approach Image was trying with Fell and Casanova. Johnny DC is already a little cheaper, maybe you knock off 6 pages and charge $1.50 so the children can get three books for a fiver each week. But what the fuck do I know, I only spent 160 credit hours studying business. :(

Sorry about all the rambling, it's just been a while since I've done so and this felt like a good time.

Cheers...

[brandeezy]

@Humphrey Lee: DC panels are...well, DC- centric. Wether its good or bad, the purpose of every DC panel is to discuss the happenings in DC proper, with some light coverage of DC's kiddie books. I suspect this is part of an effort to keep DC and Vertigo separate.

As far as kids/young adults, I think for the most part they are exposed to so-called adult subject through movies, music, video games, etc. so I'm not buying that they are put off by dark 'n gritty. The issue is that kids have so many options besides comics, and the fact that there still is a stigma associated with reading floppies doesn't help.

But the real issue is that for the most part the only way to get comics is through Diamond, which most bookstores don't want to deal with. Since 99.9 percent of the population does not go to LCS/specialty shops, artists will have to find another route so that the mainstream can find them. THAT is the way to "save" the comic industry. If you can't bring Mohammed to the mountain, bring the mountain to Mohammed.