Batman vs. Superman

[daikun]

I just watched the iFanboy Mini for August 13 on the Batman vs. Superman date. I have only one word for you guys.

Kryptonite.

The only way I can imagine Batman to beat Superman is by being cheap and exploiting his weakness. Without a small chunk of that green rock, Bats is screwed.

[conorkilpatrick]

Okay...

[tad]

I just watched the iFanboy Mini for August 13 on the Batman vs. Superman date. I have only one word for you guys.

Kryptonite.

The only way I can imagine Batman to beat Superman is by being cheap and exploiting his weakness. Without a small chunk of that green rock, Bats is screwed.

That's the point. Fighting is exploiting the weakness of your opponent. The personalities of the characters are part of the equation. Superman won't go for the cheap shot, like giving Batman third degree burns from a distance. If Batman thinks the stakes are worth it, he definitely will.

[hank41]

all you gotta do is read the DC: The New Frontier Special. perfect example of how Batman would kick the snap out of Superman

[cam-]

I know Hush is pretty maligned around these parts, but I think the Batman/Superman fight in it is pretty bad ass.

[hank41]

oh, i totally forgot about that. that was a great fight, regardless

[horatio616]

The Dark Knight Returns has a good fight as well.

In the Superman: the Animated Series, Superman ends a brawl with Batman very quickly.

[hank41]

TDKR is one of my favorite fights ever. and of course Superman would win in the SUPERMAN animated series

[comhcinc]

i really hate the fact that batman has gone from being the world's best detective to the world's most baddest ass ninja.

[hank41]

he's still got his fair share of detectivity. but he is leaning towards ninja now a days

[kahunablair]

I now want a Sherlock Holmes, Action Ninja series!

[hank41]

who doesn't brother

[labor_days]

Look, the fact is Batman can beat anyone. Even Galactus.

Batman > The Universe.

[optimus187prime]

He just has OCD about planning ahead. Like any forseeable future/action/event Batman has thought about and created a plan to defend innocents against.

[comhcinc]

does he really? cause most of the time he just drops down through sky lights and kick people.

i like connor's reasoning why batman can beat superman. it makes sense for all the right reasons.

but i reject the idea that batman can beat everyone. i am pretty sure the flash and just about any green lantern would have a problem with batman. he spends his days pretending to be bruce wayne and protecting the streets of gotham. i can see why he would pencil in "figure out how to beat biggest possible threat to world, superman" to his schedule but i don't see him taking the time to do that with everyone.

[labor_days]

Batman did do it for everyone. He created files/plans on how to kill and naturalize every single hero.

[conorkilpatrick]

but i reject the idea that batman can beat everyone. i am pretty sure the flash and just about any green lantern would have a problem with batman. he spends his days pretending to be bruce wayne and protecting the streets of gotham. i can see why he would pencil in "figure out how to beat biggest possible threat to world, superman" to his schedule but i don't see him taking the time to do that with everyone.

As Labor said, he did do it. He made files on how to beat all the heroes. It was the crux of a major storyline in JLA.

[optimus187prime]

Mind you I am not a DC continuity buff.

Didnt Batman create Brother Eye to watch all meta-humans ? So that he would know how to defeat them and their secret idenities.

[labor_days]

And didn't Deathstroke, use Batman's plan of attack against the JLA a few years after Ra's?

There is no way a GL beats Batman in a battle of willpower.

[labor_days]

Mind you I am not a DC continuity buff.

Didnt Batman create Brother Eye to watch all meta-humans ? So that he would know how to defeat them and their secret idenities.

Yes. he did that too in addition to planning out the systematic murder of every major hero.

[comhcinc]

no wonder gotham is in such bad shape batman spends all his time thinking how to kill heroes while not killing the joker.

still just because he has a plan of action doesn't mean it will work.

(as i type this my son is playing with his new batmobile toy we got him yesterday)

[labor_days]

It did work. Two villains initiated Batman's plans against the heroes and won.

Also, Batman is so well disciplined and conditioned- he only needs to sleep for a few hours a night (I believe it is 2 or 3 hours). He spends all his time planning. Crashing through skylights is part of the plan as well. There is a logic to Batman's insanity.

[comhcinc]

batman is bat shit crazy, i well give you that, but i have one more question.

if as connor said, that it is important for superman to have some one to beat him, why is it not important for batman?

[optimus187prime]

batman is bat shit crazy, i well give you that, but i have one more question.

if as connor said, that it is important for superman to have some one to beat him, why is it not important for batman?

Because seeing Goliath piss pound David is just not enjoyable.

[comhcinc]

Because seeing Goliath piss pound David is just not enjoyable.
if he can beat EVERYONE then batman is goliath my friend

[labor_days]

I think it is only important if someone takes over Superman's will or otherwise gets him to do some bad shit. Such as Max Lord or Despero.

Someone can possess Batman or steal his files- but that doesn't sow as much destruction on a massive scale as it would if Supes was compromised.

[optimus187prime]

if he can beat EVERYONE then batman is goliath my friend

Touche.

Although isnt Batman his own worst enemy?

[paper]

MacGyver > Batman

[comhcinc]

Touche.

Although isnt Batman his own worst enemy?
i am just saying that if he is that badass then he is never the underdog.

[optimus187prime]

MacGyver > Batman

He has files on him too
http://blog.epromos.com/archives/macgyver-multitool.jpg

[optimus187prime]

i am just saying that if he is that badass then he is never the underdog.

Bane did snap him like a day old croissant.

[comhcinc]

Bane did snap him like a day old croissant.
being that batman seems to be able to take out everyone that means either A: that didn't happen, batman would have already thought of that or B: bane can defeat everyone in the dc universe.......

[johnvferrigno]

the only way Batman will ever know defeat is if they do another DC and Marvel cross-over and he goes up against Squirrel Girl.

[jasontodd]

Bane did snap him like a day old croissant.

Batman's status as a fighter changed drastically from Knightfall to Morrison's JLA run.

[esophagus]

being that batman seems to be able to take out everyone that means either A: that didn't happen, batman would have already thought of that or B: bane can defeat everyone in the dc universe.......Or, Bane just knew how to exploit a weakness of Batman's. A weakness that not everyone in the DCU has. The transitive property certainly doesn't work here.

[kahunablair]

The transitive property certainly doesn't work here.

Belvedere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch. Tell me, what do you do with witches?
Peasants: Burn them!
Belvedere: Now, what do burn besides witches?
Peasant 3: More witches! [receives a punch from Peasant 1; silence]
Peasant 2: Wood?
Belvedere: So, why do witches burn? [more silence]
Peasant 2: Because there made of wood?
Belvedere: So, how do you tell if she is made of wood?
Peasant 3: Build a bridge out of her!
Belvedere: Ah, but cant you also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 3: Oh, right.
Belvedere: Tell me, does wood sink?
Peasant 1: No, it floats.
Belvedere: What also floats in water?
[lots of yelling and many wrong and random answers including very small rocks]
King Arthur: A duck!
Belvedere: Exactly!
Peasant 2: So if she weighs as much as a duck she is made of wood.
Belvedere: And therefore?
Peasants: A witch!

[siratomofbones]

Ok so i think all or most of us agree that Batman is the campin of DC U. But who is the The campain of the Marvel U?

[horatio616]

MacGyver > Batman

MacGruber > MacGyver

[kahunablair]

Ok so i think all or most of us agree that Batman is the campin of DC U. But who is the The campain of the Marvel U?

Do you mean, Champion, brother?

If so, Wolverine. ;)

[optimus187prime]

Do you mean, Champion, brother?

If so, Wolverine. ;)
My vote is for

Cap.

[comhcinc]

Cap or Thor.

[optimus187prime]

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/thumb/f/fc/Batman_Captain_America_001.jpg/300px-Batman_Captain_America_001.jpg

[labor_days]

Do you mean, Champion, brother?

If so, Wolverine. ;)

Um, no. Cap could kill him.

Cap > Marvel U.

Batman = Cap.

[aerodynamics]

Belvedere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch. Tell me, what do you do with witches?
Peasants: Burn them!
Belvedere: Now, what do burn besides witches?
Peasant 3: More witches! [receives a punch from Peasant 1; silence]
Peasant 2: Wood?
Belvedere: So, why do witches burn? [more silence]
Peasant 2: Because there made of wood?
Belvedere: So, how do you tell if she is made of wood?
Peasant 3: Build a bridge out of her!
Belvedere: Ah, but cant you also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 3: Oh, right.
Belvedere: Tell me, does wood sink?
Peasant 1: No, it floats.
Belvedere: What also floats in water?
[lots of yelling and many wrong and random answers including very small rocks]
King Arthur: A duck!
Belvedere: Exactly!
Peasant 2: So if she weighs as much as a duck she is made of wood.
Belvedere: And therefore?
Peasants: A witch!

Surely you mean Sir Bedevere. Unless this is an obscure reference to that episode of 'Mr. Belvedere' Gilliam directed.

[johnvferrigno]

Ok so i think all or most of us agree that Batman is the campin of DC U. But who is the The campain of the Marvel U?

I already said. Squirrel Girl. Although Black Panther is kind of written as "Marvel's Batman."

[optimus187prime]

I already said. Squirrel Girl. Although Black Panther is kind of written as "Marvel's Batman."

I thought that would be Moon Knight.

[johnvferrigno]

I thought that would be Moon Knight.

Moon Knight actually has very little in common with Batman. He's a rich vigilante, but that's really were the similarities end. moon knight rarely has a real gameplan, he just goes ins swinging and his psychotic attitude puts him over the top. Black panther, on the other hand, is written as the guy who is the ultimate planner. he has a contingency plan for EVERY situation. He has files on how to beat EVERY character. He has plans, and back-up plans, and back-ups for the back-up plans. He's the most prepared strategist in the Marvel U. That's why i referred to him as "Marvel's Batman."

[probey]

Has anyone here read Soon I Will Be Invincible? It's a novel that takes the superhero genre and deconstructs it, not unlike Watchmen but more conventional. The reason I bring it up is there is a character called Blackwolf who is a Batman analogue. He is a non-powered vigilante who fights to avenge the death of his brother and sister. Like Batman he is a skilled martial artist and excellent tactician. The explanation offered is he is slightly autistic, his eyes going blank as he begins to examine his opponent and figure out all the weaknesses and possibilities.

[paper]

Has anyone here read Soon I Will Be Invincible? It's a novel that takes the superhero genre and deconstructs it, not unlike Watchmen but more conventional. The reason I bring it up is there is a character called Blackwolf who is a Batman analogue. He is a non-powered vigilante who fights to avenge the death of his brother and sister. Like Batman he is a skilled martial artist and excellent tactician. The explanation offered is he is slightly autistic, his eyes going blank as he begins to examine his opponent and figure out all the weaknesses and possibilities.

I've slowly been reading this for a potential review column on the site. So far, so good.

[optimus187prime]

Has anyone here read Soon I Will Be Invincible? It's a novel that takes the superhero genre and deconstructs it, not unlike Watchmen but more conventional. The reason I bring it up is there is a character called Blackwolf who is a Batman analogue. He is a non-powered vigilante who fights to avenge the death of his brother and sister. Like Batman he is a skilled martial artist and excellent tactician. The explanation offered is he is slightly autistic, his eyes going blank as he begins to examine his opponent and figure out all the weaknesses and possibilities.

I have heard about that book a few times. Might have to pick it up. I take it you recommend it? There are a lot of Batman analogues, one of my favs is Nighthawk from Supreme Power.

[hank41]

that book is fantastic!!! check out the Prose book thread, i think there was a good convo about that a while back

[optimus187prime]

that book is fantastic!!! check out the Prose book thread, i think there was a good convo about that a while back

Thanks, added to the queue :D

[hank41]

there are a lot of Batman analogues, one of my favs is Nighthawk from Supreme Power.

my favorite is the one from Box Office Poison. Nighthawk is just cheap

[optimus187prime]

my favorite is the one from Box Office Poison. Nighthawk is just cheap

What do you mean cheap? Like his fighting style or cheap as a creation?

If you mean as a character he is cheap I can see that but I just love the idea of a racist superhero for some reason. Even typing that put a smile on my face.

Before I show up in a pre-freeze Captain America flashback :
Down with Racism
Up with Skirts

[hank41]

i mean that Marvel just wanted a Batman knock-off. but i could be wrong, i haven't really read toooooo much of his stuff

[optimus187prime]

i mean that Marvel just wanted a Batman knock-off. but i could be wrong, i haven't really read toooooo much of his stuff

Absolutely a rip off. Except his parents were strung up in a hate crime, and he only saves African Americans.

[hank41]

oh, that's just fantastic. wonder why that character never made it big??? hmm....

[optimus187prime]

oh, that's just fantastic. wonder why that character never made it big??? hmm....

Because JMS wrote Supreme Power ?

[hank41]

that's gotta have something to do with it

[siratomofbones]

I think the champion of the marvel U is ether Wolverine,Thor, or Hulk.

[brandeezy]

Spider-Man is the champion of Marvel. He's beaten Wolvie, the entire X-Team (in Secret Wars), the Fantastic Four (tho they were possessed by Karma's brother) and nonsensically Firelord. He's smart enough to out-think characters that outclass him and his lack of a real fighting style makes it hard to read him (of course his spidey-sense keeps him a step ahead of most opponents).

[labor_days]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure Cap could beat Spidey.

[optimus187prime]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure Cap could beat Spidey.

Agreed.

[kahunablair]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure Cap could beat Spidey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dorhc3KpssY

[esophagus]

I think the champion of the marvel U is ether Wolverine,Thor, or Hulk.Hulk is very far from the champion of the universe. Other heroes shouldn't have to stop the champion.

[siratomofbones]

What about black bolt or prof X

[labor_days]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dorhc3KpssY

1. Stupid Spider-Armor.

2. Cap wasn't trying to seriously hurt Spidey.

3. Things that happen in awful comics don't count. Ever.

4. It was a draw under those specific circumstances.

[johnvferrigno]

Spider-Man lost to Stilt Man. TWICE.

Squirrel Girl is undefeated.

[paper]

Marvel's 'champion' is Thanos.

The end.

[siratomofbones]

Marvel's 'champion' is Thanos.

The end.

But i don't want the marvel champ to be a bad guy.

[labor_days]

Marvel's 'champion' is Thanos.

And Cap walked right up to Thanos, after all the other heroes had fallen- and told Thanos straight up Steve Rogers is not going to take any more bullshit.

Cap is the champ of Marvel.

[esophagus]

Steve Rogers is dead.

[labor_days]

Legends are forever.

[esophagus]

Champions are not.

[paper]

But i don't want the marvel champ to be a bad guy.

Thanos is not a bad guy.

[paper]

All I'm saying is:

Thanos worked for those gems.

Steve Rogers doped.

Thanos never had to be thawed out like a turkey.

Steve Roger's girlfriend shot him to death.

Thanos' girlfriend is Death.

[kahunablair]

I'm with you, man. Any guy that took drugs, ain't my champion!

[paper]

I can't stress this enough. If Steve Rogers tried to enter the Olympics he'd probably be DQ'd first because he tested positive for drugs and then again for being deceased.

[labor_days]

Lotta pinko surrender monkeys in this thread.

[paper]

Had Steve Rogers been a real hero he would have asked that the super soldier serum be removed from his system so that he could defend justice the natural way.

I've been going through the Brubaker omnibus and i'm enjoying it, but I have difficulty respecting Steve as a person.

[optimus187prime]

I can't stress this enough. If Steve Rogers tried to enter the Olympics he'd probably be DQ'd first because he tested positive for drugs and then again for being deceased.

To test for it they would have to know the formula, and all that data was lost. Just like how in the Olympics you can take designer "steroids" that are not tested for.

[paper]

All I'm saying is:

Thanos worked for those gems.

Steve Rogers doped.

Thanos never had to be thawed out like a turkey.

Steve Roger's girlfriend shot him to death.

Thanos' girlfriend is Death.

Quoted for truth.

[kahunablair]

Can I ask one question? Who in the Marvel Universe is so bad-ass that he beat up the Watcher?

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we all know who the Champion is....
http://www.uploadandgo.com/images/redhulk.jpg

[optimus187prime]

Its not fair when you quote yourself.

[kahunablair]

To test for it they would have to know the formula, and all that data was lost. Just like how in the Olympics you can take designer "steroids" that are not tested for.

Are you saying Bonds deserves the record?? That's ludicrous!
....
Sorry wrong forum.

[optimus187prime]

Can I ask one question? Who in the Marvel Universe is so bad-ass that he beat up the Watcher?

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we all know who the Champion is....

If Cap gets DQ'd for doping, just look at that dude. Only person that can take him down is Berry Bonds.
http://www.cryouth.org/images/narcisissmblog/BarryBonds_ABB4/BarryBonds.jpg

[optimus187prime]

Are you saying Bonds deserves the record?? That's ludicrous!
....
Sorry wrong forum.

Funny I was just posting about Bonds lol:D

No he doesnt but Cap deserves a chance to be "Champion of the Marvel U".

[labor_days]

I reject this thread.

[johnvferrigno]

Marvel's 'champion' is Thanos.

The end.

Am i talking to MYSELF here????? Do you know who THANOS LOST TO????? SQUIRREL GIRL!!!!!!!!!! GAH! Pay attention, people!!!!!

[brandeezy]

They haven't lost the Super Soldier serum. The Black Cap, the 50's Cap, Nomad, Red Skull have all had access to it. It's just that it's unstable and makes everyone go crazy unless you know the exact way to apply it properly.

[optimus187prime]

Marsellus Wallace?

J/K
I didnt know that the forumla still existed. I thought that was the crux of being Cap is that he is the only one. Guess I just missed something. Why isnt there an army of 'Caps' by now.

[brandeezy]

Like I said, the process is very specific. The Black Cap got a version of the formula before it was perfected and it crippled his mind while giving him a perfect body. The 50's Cap and Nomad (then Bucky 2) both took the formula without going thru the exact procedure, giving them both peak human abilities at the cost of their sanity.

The exact method of its application died when the German science dude was assassinated. But the governments never gave up on re-creating it. Luke Cage was given his powers thru a facet of the government trying to recreate the success of Cap. And in New X-Men Grant Morrison revealed that the Canadian project Weapon Plus- which was secretly funded by the US), was created to continue research into making super soldiers. Cap was Weapon I(1) and Wolverine was Weapon X(10), with a whole bunch of humans, mutants and animals in-between. Also characters like Deadpool were cast-offs of this projects, rejected and made of use for other projects.

[optimus187prime]

Thanks for the info, the only one I was aware of is the Black Cap from Truth. I hope they do more stories like that. I really enjoyed Born and Truth, I thought they were putting a 'origin side story' line together.

[johnvferrigno]

Yeah, the Super Soldier formula is still around. it's the Veta Rays (or something like that) that stabilize the process in the metabolism that has been lost.