Pick of the Week Podcast Episode #146 - Secret Invasion #5

[ConorKilpatrick]

With Josh out on vacation, iFanboy staff writer Jim Mroczkowski steps in to fill his shoes. Two unabashed Marvel Zombies on one show? This should be interesting.

We discuss Ron's Pick of the Week for August 15, 2008:

http://www.ifanboy.com/comics/marvel_comics/secret_invasion/5_(of_8)/cover-medium.jpg
Secret Invasion #5
by Brian Michael Bendis & Lenil Francis Yu

Click here for download info and show notes! (http://www.ifanboy.com/podcasts/audio/08_17_2008_-_Episode__146__Secret_Invasion__5)

Click here to read the Pick of the Week review! (http://www.ifanboy.com/content/potw/08_13_2008_-_Secret_Invasion__5)

Click here to see the iFanboy Mini review! (http://www.ifanboy.com/podcasts/video/ifanboy_mini_-_episode__110_-_pick_of_the_week__secret_invasion__5)

[rhcoop24]

Hey, I love the show and I've been a listener for a long time. This is my first post on your forum and you guys do a tremendous job . . . most weeks. In my opinion, which isn't worth anything, this may have been the poorest show I've heard in a long time.

I didn't realize this week's show was the Uncanny X-Cast.\Marvel Fanboy cast. Most of this vitriol I'm spitting out is probably due to my opinion of the x-books and Marvel's event books right now, but I REALLY wanted to hear a better discussion of RIP, Superman and Walking Dead.

I don't care about Astonishing X-men and I really get over the excuses people will put out as to why the x-books are directionless now and why they are never have any major impact in a universe wide story anymore. I'm still in Secret Invasion, but still . . . LET'S GO! Why don't we get to see Thor kick a$$ in this issue??? Oh yeah, that's next issue when the heroes actually do something . . . or maybe the issue after that.

Getting back to the X-men, it's nothing personal about people's preferences and favorite books, but i just don't care about these characters anymore unless they are handled better than they currently are. I just think as of right now they are irrelevant and I hate that time on the show was wasted talking about them.

That said, I usually love the show and I really enjoy it and recommend it to people who ask about great comic podcasts. I just don't want anyone to think I'm coming off as a complete jerk, but I did not enjoy this week's show.

[Labor_Days]

Wasn't Josh just on vacation?

I didn't realize this week's show was the Uncanny X-Cast.\Marvel Fanboy cast. Most of this vitriol I'm spitting out is probably due to my opinion of the x-books and Marvel's event books right now, but I REALLY wanted to hear a better discussion of RIP, Superman and Walking Dead.

Well, that may have been a result of both Jimski & Ron being on the show. Jimski and Ron are hardcore Marvel. Any in depth discussion would have just been Conor talking to himself about RIP and Action Comics.

So yeah, understandable. Besides they touched on them briefly. Can't please everyone.


Also, FC: Revelations was kinda boring and the art was AWFUL. That is all.

[rhcoop24]

I won't argue that Revelations was great, it was OK. I just groan whenever I have to hear about the X-men a lot. Snooserville to me.

I still love the show, this just wasn't my favorite episode.

[GungaDin]

I won't argue that Revelations was great, it was OK. I just groan whenever I have to hear about the X-men a lot. Snooserville to me.

I still love the show, this just wasn't my favorite episode.

Did you read Whedon's Astonishing X-Men?

[paper]

I never understand why such comments are necessary. It was a big Marvel week and there happened to be a majority of Marvel fans on the show. It's not a format change. There are probably weeks where Marvel fans or Dark Horse or Image or Top Cow fans are upset when the show isn't catered entirely to them. Everybody gets a turn. Just chill for a week, ya know?

[Labor_Days]

I won't argue that Revelations was great, it was OK. I just groan whenever I have to hear about the X-men a lot. Snooserville to me.

I still love the show, this just wasn't my favorite episode.

I hear ya'. No one is harder on the X-men then me. I extend my disgust of the franchise to it's fans and am pretty open about it. (I love the X-men, but hate myself. It's very complicated.)

But! The iFanboys have thoughtfully provided timestamps with each episode. That way you can skip past the discussion you don't care for. As I do whenever Ultimate Spider-Man, Uncanny, Nova or comics that are not good are discussed.

You can listen to an episode in 15 minutes. Sweet~~!

[paper]

Are you lumping USM and Nova in with bad comics?

[comhcinc]

i dug all the marvel goodness.

[Labor_Days]

Are you lumping USM and Nova in with bad comics?

No. I have a special category for them.

[paper]

But...you've enjoyed issues of Secret Invasion, which is one of the worst comics ever. That's so backwards.

[Labor_Days]

I will never take seriously the words of someone who reads Ultimate Spider-Man on what is good comix.

Sorry, Paper. But you have awful taste in comics.

I adore you despite this, of course. You're still my favorite message boarder.

[kahunablair]

I have never understood your distaste for USM, Labes.

Its consistently praised, and rightly so, as being one of ths most solid books out there.

Is it just your inherent need to go against the grain?

[horatio616]

I have never understood your distaste for USM, Labes.

Its consistently praised, and rightly so, as being one of ths most solid books out there.

Is it just your inherent need to go against the grain?

It's been one of the few consistenly good comics that's been out in the last 10 years. Like him or not, Bendis never does anything short term. When he starts a title, he's gonna be there awhile.

[horatio616]

But...you've enjoyed issues of Secret Invasion, which is one of the worst comics ever. That's so backwards.

I think Secret Invasion is much more satisfying than Civil War and especially House of M.

I also really enjoy USM too.

[comhcinc]

i am not a fan of USM either. not because it is a bad book, i just don't like the whole ultimate line. i don't like the reason behind it i don't like the rehashing of the old stories.

[horatio616]

i am not a fan of USM either. not because it is a bad book, i just don't like the whole ultimate line. i don't like the reason behind it i don't like the rehashing of the old stories.

What about The Ultimates?

[comhcinc]

What about The Ultimates?
i am not going to say i didn't enjoy the story of the first one (all i have read) but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Labor_Days]

I have never understood your distaste for USM, Labes.

Its consistently praised, and rightly so, as being one of ths most solid books out there.

Is it just your inherent need to go against the grain?

Nah, USM is not good at all. One of the most anemic and toothless comic series I ever read- beating out Donald Duck even.

It is a series that feels passe in every way.

[paper]

i am not a fan of USM either. not because it is a bad book, i just don't like the whole ultimate line. i don't like the reason behind it i don't like the rehashing of the old stories.

This may just be me, but I like to judge a book based on...ya know...the book. USM is a beautiful book with great ideas. It's refreshing. In spite of being a so-called rehash.

I like the conceit of Secret Invasion, but I don't like the book itself at all.

USM started as a rehash, but has since come into its own. It's really no different than what Johns is doing at Action Comics or what Morrison is doing with All-Star Superman. If you really look at it, most of the comics we read today do the very same thing as USM. Even if a hero or villain isn't being newly introduced with a new origin, they're actually getting a fresh paint job since their last appearance by some other author. An origin without an 'origin' story. If anything, it's more inventive.

[kahunablair]

Gotcha!
It is your inherent need to go against the grain.

[paper]

Nah, USM is not good at all. One of the most anemic and toothless comic series I ever read- beating out Donald Duck even.

It is a series that feels passe in every way.

So, it's light in tone. That's a completely subjective criticism. As long as we're clear.

[comhcinc]

This may just be me, but I like to judge a book based on...ya know...the book. USM is a beautiful book with great ideas. It's refreshing. In spite of being a so-called rehash.

I like the conceit of Secret Invasion, but I don't like the book itself at all.

USM started as a rehash, but has since come into its own. It's really no different than what Johns is doing at Action Comics or what Morrison is doing with All-Star Superman. If you really look at it, most of the comics we read today do the very same thing as USM. Even if a hero or villain isn't being newly introduced with a new origin, they're actually getting a fresh paint job since their last appearance by some other author. An origin without an 'origin' story. If anything, it's more inventive.
i get what you are saying, i really do. but i have been reading comics a long time and i have been reading spider-man longer than anything else.

a lot of the story is fresh and interesting, but a lot of the story is rehash.

some of the things that are change are good some are bad. i prefer the original. i was like that about my fried chicken, i was like that about my coke, and i remain like that about my spider-man.

[Labor_Days]

So, it's light in tone. That's a completely subjective criticism. As long as we're clear.
There is no bite to the series. The fact it is all happening in the Ultimate U makes it feel even more irrelevant to me.

There are no high minded ideas in USM as in All Star Superman to hook me into what is essentially Ultimate Spider-Man Adventures either.

Gotcha! It is your inherent need to go against the grain.
I said why I dislike the series. There is no inherent need to go against the grain, per se. I simply believe USM is not good comics.

[kahunablair]

Comhcinc, I get what you're saying brother.

The difference is that you aren't a fan of the whole concept behind the Ultimate line. Even if the book was pure gold, you still wouldn't be a fan. In a way, I completely understand where you are coming from.

On the other hand, saying that USM is a bad comic book because of bad writing or art is pure crazy talk.

[comhcinc]

Comhcinc, I get what you're saying brother.

The difference is that you aren't a fan of the whole concept behind the Ultimate line. Even if the book was pure gold, you still wouldn't be a fan. In a way, I completely understand where you are coming from.

On the other hand, saying that USM is a bad comic book because of bad writing or art is pure crazy talk.
oh i never said it was a bad comic. it is well written and i would love to see bendis on the "real" spider-man book.

[Labor_Days]

Um, Bagley's art was/is utter shite.

Immonen is another matter. His work is terrific and I browse USM just for his renderings.

Bagley can fuck right off though.

[paper]

Um, Bagley's art was/is utter shite.

Immonen is another matter. His work is terrific and I browse USM just for his renderings.

Bagley can fuck right off though.

Okay, well we can agree on that.

[kahunablair]

Ok, you just complimented the art genius that is Immonen. Guess you aren't all bad.

oh i never said it was a bad comic. it is well written and i would love to see bendis on the "real" spider-man book.

That part wasn't directed at you, my good man. It was directed at the crazy person.

[RaceMcCloud]

Ultimate Spider-Man is Ultimate Awesome. But if Bendis did a graphic novel version of "Little Women" I'd love that, too. (Well, honestly, WHO WOULDN'T?! Can you IMAGINE how filthy that would be?)

Hey, here's another question: Should I drop "Astonishing X-Men" or "Uncanny X-Men"? This is me, leaning towards "Uncanny". I like Warren Ellis, I like Ed Brubaker, I don't care one way or the other about the art on either, and I have the full run of Whedon's "Astonishing" so I kind of like the idea of continuing with that...

(Labor is going to hate everything about this post, featuring his two favorite current books: USM and AXM.)

[Labor_Days]

Just to be clear- I don't actively hate USM as I do that-book-I-refuse-to-call-Astonishing X-men-fuck-you Marvel. I just think USM not particularly good comics or worthy of my money*.

USM is a whole lot of meh for me. And when Bagley was on it, total ZzzZZzzZZzz.


*And yes, I did buy Jean Grey: Origins and NYX2. So what? I can try new things. Maybe even enjoy them. I am very complex.

[RaceMcCloud]

Just to be clear- I don't actively hate USM as I do that-book-I-refuse-to-call-Astonishing X-men-fuck-you Marvel. I just think USM not particularly good comics or worthy of my money*.

USM is a whole lot of meh for me. And when Bagley was on it, total ZzzZZzzZZzz.


*And yes, I did buy Jean Grey: Origins and NYX2. So what? I can try new things. Maybe even enjoy them. I am very complex.

Oh, man, I LOVE Mark Bagley! One of the reasons "Trinity" is so awesome!

(I complimented Bagley and "Trinity" in the same post. What are you gonna do with me now, Labes?! Love me or hate me?!)

P.S. - "Trinity" IS awesome.

[Labor_Days]

Trinity is boring beyond belief.

I am so apathetic toward Trinity, I keep forgetting to take it off my pull list. They just pile up here on my desk. Every now and again I flip one open at random, look at the word balloons and shake my head.

At least Countdown was something I could by turns hate and love. Trinity is a plateau of average.

[RaceMcCloud]

Trinity is boring beyond belief.

I am so apathetic toward Trinity, I keep forgetting to take it off my pull list. They just pile up here on my desk. Every now and again I flip one open at random, look at the word balloons and shake my head.

At least Countdown was something I could by turns hate and love. Trinity is a plateau of average.

But you at least like "Ultimates 3", right? I mean, THAT book is totally...

I'm sorry. I can't even get through that post. My keyboard stopped working out of protest. I'll stop now.

[Six Gun]

edit: fugetaboutit

[ConorKilpatrick]

Billy Tan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tan)

Philip Tan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Tan_(penciller))

Yes, we know. We acknowledged the mistake on iFanboy.com.

[Six Gun]

Yes, we know. We acknowledged the mistake on iFanboy.com.

sorry, I've been out of the loop today

I feel like a complete prick

[oh_caroline]

Hey, here's another question: Should I drop "Astonishing X-Men" or "Uncanny X-Men"? This is me, leaning towards "Uncanny". I like Warren Ellis, I like Ed Brubaker, I don't care one way or the other about the art on either, and I have the full run of Whedon's "Astonishing" so I kind of like the idea of continuing with that...


So why do you want to drop one? Just curious.

[hank41]

Just to be clear- I don't actively hate USM as I do that-book-I-refuse-to-call-Astonishing X-men-fuck-you Marvel. I just think USM not particularly good comics or worthy of my money*.

USM is a whole lot of meh for me. And when Bagley was on it, total ZzzZZzzZZzz.


*And yes, I did buy Jean Grey: Origins and NYX2. So what? I can try new things. Maybe even enjoy them. I am very complex.

im reading it in hardcover and i am now on vol. 3 and im starting to get a little meh with Bagley. not bad, just meh. almost like it's not a factor

[DoomLobster]

I don't know if this has been addressed in past threads about past episodes, but who keeps clicking away on their mouse throughout the show? I noticed it a few weeks ago, and have been unable to avoid hearing it every episode since.

Example:

Conor: There are spoilers, yada yada so on and so forth intro stuff...

Background noise: *click* *click* *click click* *click*

It becomes less frequent as the show goes on, but man, is it aggravating.

[horatio616]

I don't know if this has been addressed in past threads about past episodes, but who keeps clicking away on their mouse throughout the show? I noticed it a few weeks ago, and have been unable to avoid hearing it every episode since.

Example:

Conor: There are spoilers, yada yada so on and so forth intro stuff...

Background noise: *click* *click* *click click* *click*

It becomes less frequent as the show goes on, but man, is it aggravating.

Honestly, I've never noticed it. Anyone else?

[Charlie Blix]

Honestly, I've never noticed it. Anyone else?

Nope. Josh's audio normally sounds really shotty and he cuts out a lot but that's the only thing I notice as far as sound goes.

[hank41]

yeah, i notice Josh's thing and sometimes notice the clicking. but...whatevsies

[horatio616]

Nope. Josh's audio normally sounds really shotty and he cuts out a lot but that's the only thing I notice as far as sound goes.

I listen to quite a few podcasts and I think iFanboy has and has always had some of the best audio quality. Actually, that's one of the reasons it quickly became a favorite. On many group podcasts, sometimes the audio is very poor.

[kahunablair]

Honestly, I've never noticed it. Anyone else?

I've heard it. It just doesn't really bother me.
If I had to guess it may be Ron's mouse. It seems to start up whenever he finishes his part of the intros.

[Charlie Blix]

I listen to quite a few podcasts and I think iFanboy has and has always had some of the best audio quality. Actually, that's one of the reasons it quickly became a favorite. On many group podcasts, sometimes the audio is very poor.

Don't worry I'm not saying the show sucks or that the audio is terrible. Just that the only sound problems I've heard is Josh's. I think its Skype or whatever they use's fault.

[horatio616]

Don't worry I'm not saying the show sucks or that the audio is terrible. Just that the only sound problems I've heard is Josh's. I think its Skype or whatever they use's fault.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound defensive, just giving my two cents on the audio. Admittedly, I don't have the best ear for sound in the world.

[Charlie Blix]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound defensive, just giving my two cents on the audio. Admittedly, I don't have the best ear for sound in the world.

No prob. I tend to be over critical about audio and video. I went to college for it. After sitting in a sound room days on end working on projects you become a little nitpicky.

[horatio616]

No prob. I tend to be over critical about audio and video. I went to college for it. After sitting in a sound room days on end working on projects you become a little nitpicky.

I can't hear for shit. Just ask my ex-wife.

[RaceMcCloud]

So why do you want to drop one? Just curious.

Because of the economy, mostly.

[RaceMcCloud]

I can't hear for shit. Just ask my ex-wife.

Quote of the week!

[Charlie Blix]

Because of the economy, mostly.

Yeah I'm thinking about dropping Brave and the Bold. I mean its not like anything important happens in that book. I only get it because I think its a fun way to learn more about random characters.

[RaceMcCloud]

Yeah I'm thinking about dropping Brave and the Bold. I mean its not like anything important happens in that book. I only get it because I think its a fun way to learn more about random characters.

I'm just dropping everything non-essential, because right now spending more than twenty bucks a week on books (for me, not for everyone) is irresponsible. That leaves me with, like, six, seven books a week, top. That's still a quality stack.

[oh_caroline]

Because of the economy, mostly.

Oh, gotcha. You want to go down to just one X-title and you can't decide which? I'd probably agree on sticking with 'Astonishing,' then -- because you have the full run, and also because this is likely to be a self-contained story with a definite endpoint. I think the new era of 'Uncanny' has the potential to go interesting places, but it's still finding its legs. If it turns out that everybody thinks it's the best thing ever, you can always go back and catch up. Ellis is more of a known quantity, and if that's something you like it's a better bet.

[RaceMcCloud]

Oh, gotcha. You want to go down to just one X-title and you can't decide which? I'd probably agree on sticking with 'Astonishing,' then -- because you have the full run, and also because this is likely to be a self-contained story with a definite endpoint. I think the new era of 'Uncanny' has the potential to go interesting places, but it's still finding its legs. If it turns out that everybody thinks it's the best thing ever, you can always go back and catch up. Ellis is more of a known quantity, and if that's something you like it's a better bet.

Took the words right out of my post. I think I'm staying that course, my friend. Thanks!

[Dave Accampo]

This may just be me, but I like to judge a book based on...ya know...the book. USM is a beautiful book with great ideas. It's refreshing. In spite of being a so-called rehash. Jumping in to back Paper on this. USM is hardly re-hash -- Bendis has taken the basic concepts, but he's given all the freedom he needs to run with it anyway you want. This is as close to an epic Peter David- Hulk, Walt Simonson-Thor type run as you're ever gonna get.

And the real treat with this series is that there are no sacred cows. Bendis is not afraid to spin things differently, to change things up because they make sense to him in the context of his overarching story. He's also not afraid to make the series NOT about "Spider-man fights Villain X." Like him or not, he's definitely writing a series about high school student Peter Parker and all the troubles and complications that come with him trying to be a super-hero in his spare time.

Re: Bagley -- I've said it before... he's not the flashiest artist, but I respect his craftsmanship. He was always consistent on USM, and he was someone you could depend on to depict the high school drama AND the action stuff. Most exciting artist out there? Not at all. Respectable as a partner in one of the longest, most consistent modern comics' runs? Yes.

But: Immonen is such a great addition. Love that guy. Sooo good.

[Dave Accampo]

Oh, gotcha. You want to go down to just one X-title and you can't decide which? I'd probably agree on sticking with 'Astonishing,' then -- because you have the full run, and also because this is likely to be a self-contained story with a definite endpoint. I think the new era of 'Uncanny' has the potential to go interesting places, but it's still finding its legs. If it turns out that everybody thinks it's the best thing ever, you can always go back and catch up. Ellis is more of a known quantity, and if that's something you like it's a better bet.

Yeah, I agree with this. I suspect (and so does Caroline) that Brubaker won't be on Uncanny for long, so you're going to be dealing more with Fraction. Ellis is going to stay very contained. You pretty much know what you're going to get.

That said, I think Fraction has a better chance of capturing the ongoing "soap opera" style of X-series that Claremont really perfected in the 80's. So if he really finds his voice, he has the potential to make his stint a really classic run. We'll see.

[Dave Accampo]

I don't care about Astonishing X-men and I really get over the excuses people will put out as to why the x-books are directionless now and why they are never have any major impact in a universe wide story anymore. Why do stories have to have a "major impact on the universe" to be relevant? I've never understood that mindset, honestly. IN fact, I think it leads to some of the awful storytelling we saw in the 90's -- everything had to be a big revelation or universe-altering plot vehicle. And all the nuance and subtlety of smaller, character-driven stories were completely lost.

[Labor_Days]

I was too busy falling asleep reading USM to respect Bagley's mediocrity.

Love that being average is the guy's greatest strength.

Doesn't deserve my respect. What a completely idiotic defense of Bagley.

[Thomas Katers]

I was too busy falling asleep reading USM to respect Bagley's mediocrity.

Love that being average is the guy's greatest strength.

Doesn't deserve my respect. What a completely idiotic defense.

That is quite the rude response.

So he isn't to your taste...no reason to act like he is committing some crime against humanity.

Personally I have respect for any artist willing to put their work out for the public.

[Labor_Days]

Nope. I don't agree with the assertion that at least doing something is better than not doing.

I don't give credit for effort. Only for quality and creativity.

[hank41]

That is quite the rude response.

So he isn't to your taste...no reason to act like he is committing some crime against humanity.

Personally I have respect for any artist willing to put their work out for the public.

Yeah, I have to agree with Tom on this one. Just because he isn't your taste, doesn't mean he is a bad artist or anything like that. At some points during the USM run, he was putting out a bi-weekly book in a time when it takes some artists 3 months to do a book.

And that was kind of rude of you

[Dave Accampo]

Love that being average is the guy's greatest strength. Who the %&$# said "average" is his greatest strength?

His strengths are his speed, consistency, clear storytelling. I find his figures to be emotive. I think he can draw teenagers that look like teenagers. He can handle action scenes and talking head scenes.

I was simply saying that there are other artists who draw more dramatic or better rendered figures. That are more dynamically pleasing to the eye. That's it.

I love Bill Sienkiewicz and John Cassaday -- doesn't mean they have the same strengths.

[Dave Accampo]

And that was kind of rude of you
Oh, this is par for the course for Labor... ;)

[Charlie Blix]

Oh, this is par for the course for Labor... ;)

Wait... Labor is Robert Downing Jr!

[oh_caroline]

Yeah, I agree with this. I suspect (and so does Caroline) that Brubaker won't be on Uncanny for long, so you're going to be dealing more with Fraction. Ellis is going to stay very contained. You pretty much know what you're going to get.

That said, I think Fraction has a better chance of capturing the ongoing "soap opera" style of X-series that Claremont really perfected in the 80's. So if he really finds his voice, he has the potential to make his stint a really classic run. We'll see.

Yeah, I think Bru phasing off of the book is an open secret by this point -- from what I understand, he didn't even go to the recent X-men writers' planning retreat. I'm okay with that because, though I'm a big Brubaker fan, 'Uncanny' has obviously never been where his passion lies.

And you won't find many bigger Fraction fans than me (than I? than I am?), but I really have no idea what his X-men run is going to look like; that makes it exciting, but not necessarily a safe bet at this point.

[hank41]

i would like to see Fraction on x-men. he probably has some crazy idea for the x-men in SF

[Labor_Days]

Who the %&$# said "average" is his greatest strength?
That's basically what the defense of Bagley boils down to though.

When people (not just you, Dave) say, "He's not terribly interesting but gets the job done", that to me is poorest compliment one can give for an artist.

It tells me a sea of blah is a-ok. Imagine saying the same of a writer- "He's not terribly interesting but gets the job done."

Doesn't work out as a check in the box of pros for a series. For me at least. I should hope that holds true for those interested in good art as well.

I will admit Bagley is timely. But as I said many times before- I would rather wait for Cassaday or Chiang. And likewise, an interesting failure is worth a lot more than being successfully bland.

Which is what I feel both Bagley and USM are- bland to the point of being unworthy of any special mention or "respect".

Snoozeville to the max, bros.

[RaceMcCloud]

All right, we get it, Labor doesn't like USM or Bagley. It's all a matter of taste, bro. If you told me I could only get one book a month for the rest of my life, it would be USM. And I'll take Bagley over J.G. Jones any day of the week and twice on Wednesday. Not only do I think he "gets the job done", I think he's one of the top and most talented artist in the industry over the last 15 years.

It's all subjective.

[horatio616]

If you guys don't stop with the 'bro's I'm going to tase you. ;)

[paper]

I never got this whole argument of Bagley's characters being expressive and emotive. All I ever got out of those faces was 'tired' or 'shocked' or 'excited'. The only real change from expression to expression in USM were the eyes. And they rarely seemed to match the appropriate emotion. There's more range of expression in something like Scott Pilgrim or Bone for cripes sakes.

[Labor_Days]

All right, we get it, Labor doesn't like USM or Bagley. It's all a matter of taste, bro.

Right, but saying this ^

Defeats the purpose of saying this...

If you told me I could only get one book a month for the rest of my life, it would be USM. And I'll take Bagley over J.G. Jones any day of the week and twice on Wednesday. Not only do I think he "gets the job done", I think he's one of the top and most talented artist in the industry over the last 15 years.

It's all subjective.

The point is in discussing the why's & how's of what we consider to be good. Yeah, it's all subjective as to what we enjoy. If that excluded the length and/or depth of what we discuss than nothing would be worth arguing or talking about.


And to Dave's points about Bagley's art- I strongly disagree. There was a lot googley-eyed faces, boring layouts and real lack of ambition to the way the guy put together a book. Besides speed, I would say Bagley does have a good sense of storytelling. Though that has more to do with the rigidity and linearity of his layouts.

[hank41]

it works for some, doesn't for others. just opinion bro (that's for you Horatio)

[hank41]

And I'll take Bagley over J.G. Jones any day of the week and twice on Wednesday.

i second that notion

[Dave Accampo]

That's basically what the defense of Bagley boils down to though.
Except that it doesn't boil down to that, and I was careful NOT to make my defense of his work as that. Speed was one factor I mentioned. And it IS worth mentioning because it allows for the timely release of a book with a consistent look, and THAT increases my enjoyment of a monthly periodical in the long term.

Because these are NOT gallery paintings.

I don't mind waiting for a Cassaday or a Chiang, either. But I give Bagley respect for his speed because it does add to one aspect of my enjoyment of a monthly serial.

[Dave Accampo]

I never got this whole argument of Bagley's characters being expressive and emotive. All I ever got out of those faces was 'tired' or 'shocked' or 'excited'. The only real change from expression to expression in USM were the eyes. And they rarely seemed to match the appropriate emotion. There's more range of expression in something like Scott Pilgrim or Bone for cripes sakes.

On this we completely disagree (well, except that I love both Bone and Scott Pilgrim).

His figures are fluid, not stiff. He's able to pull off expressions through body language that complements Bendis' script.

The faces DO, I will argue, capture a range that's more than tired/shocked/excited. I don't think there's a greater range Scott Pilgrim -- it's just easier to see because O'Malley's art is overly exaggerated.

Bottom line: I've never had a problem with Bagley's storytelling.

[ConorKilpatrick]

The faces DO, I will argue, capture a range that's more than tired/shocked/excited. I don't think there's a greater range Scott Pilgrim -- it's just easier to see because O'Malley's art is overly exaggerated.

I agree. That one issue of USM that was an entire conversation between Peter and Mary Jane... fantastic emotion portrayed in that one.

[paper]

I agree. That one issue of USM that was an entire conversation between Peter and Mary Jane... fantastic emotion portrayed in that one.

Just....just put it in my file.

[hank41]

I agree. That one issue of USM that was an entire conversation between Peter and Mary Jane... fantastic emotion portrayed in that one.

yeah, exactly. he can pull off something like that. most artists can't

[Dave Accampo]

And to Dave's points about Bagley's art- I strongly disagree. There was a lot googley-eyed faces, boring layouts and real lack of ambition to the way the guy put together a book. Besides speed, I would say Bagley does have a good sense of storytelling. Though that has more to do with the rigidity and linearity of his layouts. Like Scott Pilgrim has lots of googley-eyed faces? Boring layouts... because all layouts should be like Simone Bianchi's in Astonishing? Heh. Layout and panel progression exist to move the story along. Do you follow the story without interruption? Yes. Thus, he earns my respect. Do his "googley-eyed faces" get across the emotions of the characters? Yes. I never had any problem understanding what was being conveyed. Thus, he earns respect.

I'll add that folks like Hitch and Cassaday also have boring layouts, relatively speaking. But their storytelling is usually clear and thus does its job.

[Dave Accampo]

I agree. That one issue of USM that was an entire conversation between Peter and Mary Jane... fantastic emotion portrayed in that one. Exactly!

Wow... Conor and I agree, Paper and I disagree, and... and... iFanboy is offline. It's the apocalypse!

[horatio616]

I agree. That one issue of USM that was an entire conversation between Peter and Mary Jane... fantastic emotion portrayed in that one.

USM #13? One of the best single comic issues ever.

[Dave Accampo]

But anyway... enough of Bagley. We don't need to rehash this ol' debate any further. :)

I just wanna add that Jimski did a great job this week!

[ConorKilpatrick]

USM #13? One of the best single comic issues ever.

That's the one! I thought it was 13 but then I thought... nah, was it that long ago? I am almost positive that was a Pick of the Week way back when.

[hank41]

wow, i can't believe i remember that issue. i read that like 2 years ago

[horatio616]

For me Bagley's like that girl you know who you don't really find attractive at first glance, but once you get talking to her, she's pretty attractive. All her friends are better looking, but she's still pretty hot.

[hank41]

Cassaday only likes the football players anyway

[horatio616]

Cassaday only likes the football players anyway

The ugly girls will do anything to please you. Trinity, for example.

[GungaDin]

For me Bagley's like that girl you know who you don't really find attractive at first glance, but once you get talking to her, she's pretty attractive. All her friends are better looking, but she's still pretty hot.

Perfect analogy. I know this girl. I have many of them as really best friends....

[GungaDin]

Cassaday only likes the football players anyway

Quarterback, love. Quarterback.

[Dave Accampo]

Just....just put it in my file. Maybe it's just because I'm reading The Legion of Three Worlds right now, but I'm picturing that Paul's file will eventually become its own annex. And then... a wing. And in this wing there will be statues of Paul committing all his various transgressions against iFanboy.

[Jimski]

That's the one! I thought it was 13 but then I thought... nah, was it that long ago? I am almost positive that was a Pick of the Week way back when. I ended up with two copies of that; it was the beginning of my misadventures in attempting to subscribe directly from Marvel. That was one of the times I read a 21st century comic and said, "Wow. Things are different than they were back when Atlantis was Attacking."

[RaceMcCloud]

Right, but saying this ^

Defeats the purpose of saying this...



No it doesn't. Bro.

[Labor_Days]

No it doesn't. Bro.

Ok, then so if it's all subjective- why begin your post with...

All right, we get it, Labor doesn't like USM or Bagley.

What is the point here?

It's a perfectly valid thing to discuss otherwise. The context in which USM and Bagley came about in this thread is perfectly reasonable and concurrent with other posts.

You can weight in if you like or not. If you chalk it all up to "different tastes" and nothing more than why bother at all?

[RaceMcCloud]

Your argument makes no sense to me. I'm saying it's okay that different people have different tastes. You're countering by saying, well, if that's okay, than there's no point discussing those different tastes.

Differing opinions exists in this world for reasons other than so that people can argue about them. You're basically saying if we're not going to argue over our different tastes, if nobody is eventually going to be proven "right", than there's no point discussing those different opinions to begin with. I simply do not buy into that. Discussing various subjective opinions about art can be interesting and entertaining without anyone having to be proven "right" or "wrong".

[Labor_Days]

I'm asking why the "throwing your hands up in tha air" tone if you don't really care one way or another because it's all subjective.

[RaceMcCloud]

Okay, maybe I've been around the boards too long (and joking tones don't translate onto the internet) but I have read the "Labor Days hates Mark Bagley post" many, many times, and I was ribbing you a bit because I recognize that you've trotted out one of your favorites axes to grind. I was just pokin' some of the fun.

I think anyone can have any opinion that they want and I don't take that personally... but I still think subjective opinions of art are worth discussing, even though it doesn't bother me when somebody else has a differing view.

Well, not often it doesn't bother me. On occasion. i try my best.

[kahunablair]

Can we stop arguing over art styles, and start talking about stuff that we all agree on?

Like how kick ass Ramos' art on Runaways is going to be?
http://www.uploadandgo.com/images/Ramos.PNG

[GungaDin]

Can we stop arguing over art styles, and start talking about stuff that we all agree on?

Like how kick ass Ramos' art on Runaways is going to be?
http://www.uploadandgo.com/images/Ramos.PNG

Hell yes. I don't know if you were joking and being facetious, but hell yes. Bring on the Runaways.

[Labor_Days]

Okay, maybe I've been around the boards too long (and joking tones don't translate onto the internet) but I have read the "Labor Days hates Mark Bagley post" many, many times, and I was ribbing you a bit because I recognize that you've trotted out one of your favorites axes to grind. I was just pokin' some of the fun.

Ha! I thought you were offended by my dislike of Bagley. And thus was doing the "why are we even discussing this" cop out.

I misread your posts entirely. In any case, I was speaking sincerely on the +/- of USM and Bagley. Wasn't necessarily directed at Dave or you, but at the franchise.

Forgive my hyperbole.

[Six Gun]

Can we stop arguing over art styles, and start talking about stuff that we all agree on?

Like how kick ass Ramos' art on Runaways is going to be?
http://www.uploadandgo.com/images/Ramos.PNG

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit

[Labor_Days]

I would prefer Bagley on Runaways to Ramos.

[paper]

Runaways was a great series by Brian K Vaughan that exists in digests or three beautiful hardcovers. Alphona's art was spectacular.

It's too bad the series had to end.

[Labor_Days]

Tragic, really.

[Dave Accampo]

Sigh.

I've realized that I will always have someone to fight on this board. Because I'm an asshole? No. Because I actually LIKE too many things.

I like Ramos. I like Bachalo. I like Bagley. I like Cassaday. I like Bendis AND Johns. All for different reasons.

[paper]

Sigh.

I've realized that I will always have someone to fight on this board. Because I'm an asshole? No. Because I actually LIKE too many things.

I like Ramos. I like Bachalo. I like Bagley. I like Cassaday. I like Bendis AND Johns. All for different reasons.

You're not at all offended by the Ramos image above? What the fuck did he do to Chase and Nico? As a fan of those characters I'm repulsed. It's not the style, it's the interpretation.

This is like the time I came home early from school and caught my grandfather trying on his SS uniform. All those years of sitting me on his lap and telling me war stories, he'd never used adjectives.

*Insert crying bear picture here*

[Dave Accampo]

I like different interpretations.

I don't need every artist to depict the world like Van Gogh. I like to go from a Picasso to a Van Gogh to a Matisse... whatever.

Maybe I've just been reading comics for so long that I realize that there are no sacred cows. Everyone's open to a new interpretation.

[paper]

I'm not.....I'm not whining because it's different than what i'm used to.

I'm appalled because it's degrading. They look ridiculous.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Yay Ramos! I can't wait for that one to come out in trades.

[Dave Accampo]

I dunno. They look interesting to me. I think about it as if I've never seen them before. This is a new #1. Does this seem like an interesting group of characters? Yeah. I wanna know more. Ridiculous? Not really... it's definitely a manga-inspired take. Doesn't really bother me, though. I kinda like it.

[Labor_Days]

The design for Nico is positively out dated. So much so, that it is an insult of one of the most wonderfully written characters in comicdom.

This is the shit I am talking about.

You need to be offended by this rather than comics going from $2.99 to $3.25.

I love comics. The people that buy this shit? Fuck them.

[RaceMcCloud]

Forgive my hyperbole.

Hyperbole forgiven. Let's get a taco.

[RaceMcCloud]

You're not at all offended by the Ramos image above? What the fuck did he do to Chase and Nico? As a fan of those characters I'm repulsed. It's not the style, it's the interpretation.

This is like the time I came home early from school and caught my grandfather trying on his SS uniform. All those years of sitting me on his lap and telling me war stories, he'd never used adjectives.

*Insert crying bear picture here*

I don't like Nico's design. Chase's doesn't bother me. "Runaways" lost me about halfway through Whedon's snooze-tacular arc. I actually don't mind Ramos, usually, so I'll wait to see this in action before I kill it.

Hey, who's writing this "Runaways" anyway?

[hank41]

as a person who has never read any Runaways and has no connection to the characters, i really dig those designs and i might read it

[GungaDin]

That's a promo image. The inside's going to look different, especially four or five issues down the line. I LOVE Ramos's art, and I can't wait to see the new Runaways...

Which comes out next week...

And say what you will about the delays and/or story and/or density that came with Whedon's run, but he *nailed* those characters. It was fantastic.

[RaceMcCloud]

That's a promo image. The inside's going to look different, especially four or five issues down the line. I LOVE Ramos's art, and I can't wait to see the new Runaways...

Which comes out next week...

And say what you will about the delays and/or story and/or density that came with Whedon's run, but he *nailed* those characters. It was fantastic.

You're absolutely right. The characters were great. He wrote them great. It was the STORY that killed me. No interest in it whatsoever.

Of course, the Time-Travelling didn't help. The only time travel stories worth watching/reading are the "Back to the Future" movies, "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure", and the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" novels, which end as well as any time travel story could ever end.

I hear "The Time Traveler's Wife" is really good, too...

[paper]

Just to be clear, I keep a file on all of you clowns too.

:P

[GungaDin]

Has no one referenced the cover to issue #1?

http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0808/RUNAWYV3001_COV_col.jpg

[paper]

I'll buy it. I'm somewhat reasonable.

[GungaDin]

I'll buy it. I'm somewhat reasonable.

Remember what happened the last time you were somewhat reasonable?

There was a FTW moment involving a big coffee conglomerate, some dudes named after the Jewish word for Earth, and walking toasters that look like humans.

[Jimski]

http://www.scicomp.ucsd.edu/~mholst/personal/images_cats/tired.gif

So very tired.

[ConorKilpatrick]

Hey, who's writing this "Runaways" anyway?

Terry Moore.

[RaceMcCloud]

Oh, that's right. I knew that. Well, how could you not buy it?

[kahunablair]

Haha. I love how all I did was make a joke about Ramos on Runaways to cool the thread down and it only added fuel to the fire.

[gobo]

Digging Ramos' art on Runaways.

Also totally excited to finally read some Terry Moore, I've only heard good things but haven't got around to reading any of his stuff yet.

[rhcoop24]

Did you read Whedon's Astonishing X-Men?

Yes I did and I LOVED it, but I almost look at it as a Kingdom Come/Captain America/Ultimates/All-Star book that is totally out of currenty continuity. He gets those characters, and I love Brubaker, but I just can't read X-men monthly in and out anymore.

I did for a long time, but Wolverine is the only X-book I pick up monthly anymore.

I wasn't trying to start a firestorm of X-hate, but I was listening to the episode at the gym so I didn't see the timestamps (way too smart for me to do that), so I was stuck fast forwarding and finding more X-book reviews.

[GungaDin]

Yes I did and I LOVED it, but I almost look at it as a Kingdom Come/Captain America/Ultimates/All-Star book that is totally out of currenty continuity. He gets those characters, and I love Brubaker, but I just can't read X-men monthly in and out anymore.

I did for a long time, but Wolverine is the only X-book I pick up monthly anymore.

I wasn't trying to start a firestorm of X-hate, but I was listening to the episode at the gym so I didn't see the timestamps (way too smart for me to do that), so I was stuck fast forwarding and finding more X-book reviews.

No, you're fine. Just wanted to make sure you've read good stuff before being a bash person. You're cool.

I've also dropped a lot of X-books. I didn't pick up Uncanny, dropped X-Factor, and Young X-Men and X-Force were just bad... And Astonishing with Ellis and Bianchi isn't my style...

[oh_caroline]

Yes I did and I LOVED it, but I almost look at it as a Kingdom Come/Captain America/Ultimates/All-Star book that is totally out of currenty continuity. He gets those characters, and I love Brubaker, but I just can't read X-men monthly in and out anymore.

I did for a long time, but Wolverine is the only X-book I pick up monthly anymore.

I wasn't trying to start a firestorm of X-hate, but I was listening to the episode at the gym so I didn't see the timestamps (way too smart for me to do that), so I was stuck fast forwarding and finding more X-book reviews.

Whedon's Astonishing X-men was many things but it was NEVER a monthly. :D

The discussion of the X-books in this podcast was actually pretty critical. It's not like it was a love fest. Not straight-up bashing, but there were some interesting points about the franchise's place in the universe. Then again, I listen to comics podcasts for the conversation, whether or not they are books I follow, so I guess it depends on what you're looking for. But if your goal is only to hear about books that you're into, it's probably a good idea to read the show notes and note the timestamps.

[GungaDin]

Whedon's Astonishing X-men was many things but it was NEVER a monthly. :D

The discussion of the X-books in this podcast was actually pretty critical. It's not like it was a love fest. Not straight-up bashing, but there were some interesting points about the franchise's place in the universe. Then again, I listen to comics podcasts for the conversation, whether or not they are books I follow, so I guess it depends on what you're looking for. But if your goal is only to hear about books that you're into, it's probably a good idea to read the show notes and note the timestamps.

It was monthly in theory... >.>

But no, I completely understand. I loved their discussion of the role ofthe X-Men because it's a not-often-enough-talked about thing...

[horatio616]

Hey, the first time I read UXM 501 it didn't really stand out, but I read it again last night and it's actually pretty good. Even the art.

I'm really loving the new Scott "Corvette" Summers* and his wavy hair and his freaky-deakyness.


*Dated Mark Hammill reference.

[CAM!]

Hey, the first time I read UXM 501 it didn't really stand out, but I read it again last night and it's actually pretty good. Even the art.

I'm really loving the new Scott "Corvette" Summers* and his wavy hair and his freaky-deakyness.


*Dated Mark Hammill reference.

I don't know, the fact that Land didn't even come close to bothering with background for pages at a time got to me, and again this wierd thing where something is referenced again and again in dialogue and we don't get to see it. Last time it was the spectacular view, this time it was Emma's racy outfit.

And don't say it wasn't there because it would be too racy in an issue that has the "Red Queen" in it.

[Jimski]

and again this wierd thing where something is referenced again and again in dialogue and we don't get to see it. Last time it was the spectacular view, this time it was Emma's racy outfit. I saw Emma's head and shoulders on the page last night and made the "and again, we don't get to see the view!" joke to myself. You are not alone.

[gobo]

Emma's outfit could EASILY have been more racy than the Red Queen's, I personally like that they didn't show it. I knew people would hate that though.

[horatio616]

I don't know, the fact that Land didn't even come close to bothering with background for pages at a time got to me, and again this wierd thing where something is referenced again and again in dialogue and we don't get to see it. Last time it was the spectacular view, this time it was Emma's racy outfit.

And don't say it wasn't there because it would be too racy in an issue that has the "Red Queen" in it.

I really don't think not showing Emma's outfit was Land's choice. The whole point was to let the reader use his or her imagination as to how racy her outfit was.

At least we get to see Cyclops fantastic hair. I'm sure the X-Men have access to fantastic salons there in SF.

[CAM!]

It just felt like a missed opportunity for Land to trace a hot woman, something he seems to enjoy, which is why I thought it was so odd. It's like the writers are scripting the book towards his "talent" and he's ignoring it.

I'm sure that's not the actual case, but it feels that way to me.

[Dave Accampo]

I really don't think not showing Emma's outfit was Land's choice. The whole point was to let the reader use his or her imagination as to how racy her outfit was.

Agreed. I liked the way they played it here... and to follow that up with a more serious moment with the crib (and the look on Emma's face) made for a very effective scene.

[oh_caroline]

It just felt like a missed opportunity for Land to trace a hot woman, something he seems to enjoy, which is why I thought it was so odd. It's like the writers are scripting the book towards his "talent" and he's ignoring it.

I'm sure that's not the actual case, but it feels that way to me.

Hah! You know, my reaction to the 'Red Queen' panel was, "I feel like there was some nuance or subtlety to that reveal in the writer's mind, and it got to Land who just went, "Oh, cool, I can lightbox that latest issue of Redhead Leather Queens!" But then someone else suggested that it was more in the vein of the writers going, "We'll put SOMETHING in here we know Greg wants to draw." So who knows.

[oh_caroline]

Agreed. I liked the way they played it here... and to follow that up with a more serious moment with the crib (and the look on Emma's face) made for a very effective scene.

Emma did very nearly have an interesting, human facial expression in that one panel -- though it's also awfully reminiscent of one Cassaday drew in Astonishing 15, I believe, only with more cleavage. (I am willing to buy Emma walking around naked as a character thing, since they're apparently living in their own place, not surrounded by teammates or students for the first time since they've been together; I don't know why her collar thing comes and goes, though).