Obama/Biden

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

"FLASH: Fri Aug 22 2008 17:52:03 ET /// KMBC's Micheal Mahoney reports a company in Kansas City, which specializes in political literature, has been printing Obama-Bayh material... MORE... Gill Studios, would not confirm information about the material. They would not deny it either. At least three sources close to the plant's operations reported the Obama-Bayh material was being produced... "

http://www.drudgereport.com/obys.jpg

You guys happy with his choice?

[comhcinc]

You guys happy with his choice?

i don't know, he hasn't told us yet.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

i don't know, he hasn't told us yet.Do you think they would waste all that money printing those to "trick" you?

[ohhoe]

Do you think they would waste all that money printing those to "trick" you?

Newspapers print up two different papers prior to events like the political elections and the superbowl so they can have their stuff out first.

It could just be a case of that.

[Quix]

It also contradicts NBC's reporting that both Bayh and Kaine have been told they aren't Obama's pick.

[rabidbadger]

me want biden.

[masherscf]

Do you think they would waste all that money printing those to "trick" you?

I guess he's saying the story is hearsay. Who is Bayh anyway? Is he like Dan Quayle?

[tokenuser]

me want biden.NPR was putting their money on him as well.

[phatlip12]

It appears to be a phony. It looks like Biden got it. I never even heard of Bayh.

[esophagus]

I would prefer Biden, despite really having no say as a Canadian, but Bayh isn't a terrrrrrible choice.

Still, this is all speculation.

[masherscf]

This thread is an epic fail. But, I think we should make it the official VP discussion thread.

[rabidbadger]

me got biden. :D

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

This thread is an epic fail. But, I think we should make it the official VP discussion thread.Fixed.

me got biden. :DWhy do they wait so long to announce this? Is there some reason it's more advantageous for them to wait so long?

[rabidbadger]

they wanna own the news cycle for the next ten days through the convention and into next sundays political shows, and not let mccain get a word in edgewise.

[kahunablair]

they wanna own the news cycle for the next ten days through the convention and into next sundays political shows, and not let mccain get a word in edgewise.

Damn, man. You are one of the few people I've seen online that "get it". Nice job, Badger!

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

they wanna own the news cycle for the next ten days through the convention and into next sundays political shows, and not let mccain get a word in edgewise.In order for that to be true, you'd have to assume that the media actually covers McCain.

[ohhoe]

In order for that to be true, you'd have to assume that the media actually covers McCain.

Considering I work at a Republican Non- Profit agency, and I have fox news in front of my face on a 40" flat screen for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, I can safely say the media does cover McCain, and it's not 'fair and balanced' lolz.

Why would you even assume otherwise?

[gimpbully]

the fairness doctorine *could* have guaranteed that... if it were still around..
In order for that to be true, you'd have to assume that the media actually covers McCain.

[Quix]

they wanna own the news cycle for the next ten days through the convention and into next sundays political shows, and not let mccain get a word in edgewise.

It's that and that Obama wanted to keep the fact that McCain doesn't know how many houses he owns in the news cycle for as long as possible.

In order for that to be true, you'd have to assume that the media actually covers McCain.

They do.

[rabidbadger]

when they do cover mccain they give him a pass no matter the gaffe, or the fact that he was an adulterer, or any of his legitimate political moves. They give him donuts, the give Obama 5 weeks of a reverands nonsense.

But now that we know it's biden, and this is the official veep thread, who do we think mccain will chose? My guess is Romney.

(should a mod change the title?)

[Quix]

My guess is McCain will choose Romney, though his commercial with Biden may have made that less likely given how hard McCain and Romney went after each other in the primaries.

[masherscf]

The Media will certainly cover the sexier of the two. This is definitely Obama. News-Entertainment media in the country sucks balls...No mistake.

[bigshotprof]

Back to the original topic, Bayh didn't really add anything to the ticket. It was a dream that Indiana would go for Obama because they had a favorite son. And even if they did, their electoral college contribution is irrelevant. I'm not sure why Bayh was ever considered. I grew up in Indiana when his father Birch Bayh was one of the last of the classic liberals. He was on the Reagan hit list. But Evan--who is okay . . . competent, middle of the road, etc--just doesn't bring any assets to the race.

My biggest worry about Biden is that it will come across as business and usual, which will further blunt the excitement of all of the millions of first time voters who were going to swarm into the polls to carry Obama. This is has become just another four year event, and Obama can't win another four year event.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

I'm not sure what I'm worried about more. Him winning, or him losing.

the fairness doctorine *could* have guaranteed that... if it were still around..Weren't you the one trying to convince me that Democrats didn't want larger government and give more freedoms?

Hahaha, I forgot about how much the Democrats want the fairness doctorine. I guess if they lost the 2nd amendment argument (for now,) why not start to attack the first one!

They do.No they don't, to the point where even Obamaites are even getting tired of hearing about him.

(should a mod change the title?)Yea, they are going to have to, they don't have their usergroup set up to allow me to change the thread title.

[rabidbadger]

prof, as usual, it's marketing. They already started, selling Biden as a guy who takes the train to the senate from Delaware everyday, so not a DC insider, so much. And making sure we all know about his working class roots, and his family tragedy. Also, He can be the attack dog, which he does very well, and keep Obama above the fray. He is also a deeply commited liberal who gives better than he takes. (see guliani quote)

[rabidbadger]

No they don't, to the point where even Obamaites are even getting tired of hearing about him.


Dude. If there is a story about Obama that is actually news, most newscasts/papers "even it out" with a useless story about mccain walking into a diner, despite the fact that it is meaningless. And Obama announced Biden on a saturday cause they know mccain does NOTHING on weekends, and aint up past nine. Not an age thing, a lazy thing. Don't need another lazy president for another 4 more years.

[esophagus]

Do you think they would waste all that money printing those to "trick" you?
I guess so.

[Quix]

My biggest worry about Biden is that it will come across as business and usual, which will further blunt the excitement of all of the millions of first time voters who were going to swarm into the polls to carry Obama. This is has become just another four year event, and Obama can't win another four year event.

I'm not too worried about it given that while the GOP will try to say just that, Obama can easily refute it given that he's the one at the top of the ticket, not Biden.

No they don't, to the point where even Obamaites are even getting tired of hearing about him.

And I never said that he got the same amount of coverage. I simply said that they are covering him. The media is covering things based on how "newsworthy" they believe them to be. For most of last week, Obama was building up to the VP announcement while McCain wasn't doing anything other than the old standards like flip-flopping and slandering his opponent. When he did do something interesting it got coverage, as shown when McCain forgot how many houses he owns.

[rabidbadger]

zing!

[ohhoe]

RDVUPqoowf8


yikes.

[rabidbadger]

eh, relax. mccain gonna shoot his wad on this stuff too early. Won't matter til october, then this will be old news fixed by then by the Obama/Biden campaign. No worries.

[ohhoe]

eh, relax. mccain gonna shoot his wad on this stuff too early. Won't matter til october, then this will be old news fixed by then by the Obama/Biden campaign. No worries.

I don't care either way, I'm not voting for either of the major party candidates.

[masherscf]

eh, relax. mccain gonna shoot his wad on this stuff too early. Won't matter til october, then this will be old news fixed by then by the Obama/Biden campaign. No worries.

Don't be too sure, the Republicans are an extremely good play-off team. They know how to run campaigns. They know how to organize and energize voters. They'll be all hands on deck come late October.

On the other hand, the left seems congenitally incapable of the same kind of organization. The Clinton's do. That's why conservatives hate them so much. The Clinton's ability to appeal to moderate conservative voters was called "triangulation" in 1992 and it made Bill Clinton President.

[rabidbadger]

i wish we had 4 or 5 to choose from. too much diversity in the US to just have left and right, but we got what we got. But I am NOT saying to not vote 3rd party. The more votes they get, the better the possibility later for a real 3rd or 4th, etc, Party

[rabidbadger]

Don't be too sure, the Republicans are an extremely good play-off team. They know how to run campaigns. They know how to organize and energize voters. They'll be all hands on deck come late October.

On the other hand, the left seems congenitally incapable of the same kind of organization. The Clinton's do. That's why conservatives hate them so much. The Clinton's ability to appeal to moderate conservative voters was called "triangulation" in 1992 and it made Bill Clinton President.

Umm, Obama beat Clinton. Nuff said.

[masherscf]

Umm, Obama beat Clinton. Nuff said.

Because Hillary tried the triangulation too soon....and she doesn't have a penis (joke..please...see older threads)

Obama has never faced the full court-press or a well funded Republican Campaign for national Office. I tell ya, the gloves will come off and I'll get ugly. These guys are not push-overs.

They'll unveil their emasculating nickname for him during the Republican convention. Remember ol' "Flip-flop" from four years ago. We know such nicknames are retarded. But, they're perfect for dimissing a candidtate. Heck, they already put the label "baby-momma" on his wife.

[rabidbadger]

baby momma didn't stick, and was racist and was rejected by all but those who would never vote for him anyway. He can stay above the fray now, and let Biden eat their lunch. Mccain's a lazy wimp, the swiftboating worked when we all had houses, jobs, and gas, but that has changed. The general populace is suffering (in a first world sense) and aint gonna put up with that again.

Sadly, I have no doubt the incharge republicons will do something nefarious, fake/allow another attack, martial law, "hold off" elections "temporarily" forever.

/tinfoil. til proven right.

[masherscf]

baby momma didn't stick,

We'll continue this discussion in a few weeks after they unveil the new outrageous nicknames.

[rabidbadger]

oh. no doubt they will come up with somethings, and some might stick, but not with the majority. too many main street folks worrying nowdays, and if Obama can stick with the bush+4moreyears thing. ... he wins.

HE! can ignore the nicknames, but Biden NEVER will.

[bigstupid]

I like how Swiftboating is now a negative term.... Kerry, if I remember right (it's been a few years) started all the crap by telling blatant lies about what the guys he served with did in the war... I'd be pissed too, if some douche started telling people I was a baby killer.

As to voting... hmm... I'm probably writing in Ron Paul... anything less would be... uncivilized.

[ohhoe]

I like how Swiftboating is now a negative term.... Kerry, if I remember right (it's been a few years) started all the crap by telling blatant lies about what the guys he served with did in the war... I'd be pissed too, if some douche started telling people I was a baby killer.

As to voting... hmm... I'm probably writing in Ron Paul... anything less would be... uncivilized.

ron paul is a nutjob too.

[rabidbadger]

well, they all learned from Bill Clintons war room, Radio just said mccain is calling Biden Obaama's "leadership gap" Not too bad.

[phatlip12]

I like how Swiftboating is now a negative term.... Kerry, if I remember right (it's been a few years) started all the crap by telling blatant lies about what the guys he served with did in the war... I'd be pissed too, if some douche started telling people I was a baby killer.

As to voting... hmm... I'm probably writing in Ron Paul... anything less would be... uncivilized.

Ron Paul? Didn't he give up?

[bigstupid]

ron paul is a nutjob too.

I don't agree with everything he says, but who agrees with everything anybody says? In my estimation, he would be a better choice than the 2 alternatives. Obama isn't fit to be president and McCain likes to think himself a Maverick... and that is problematic... although, it would definitely not be another Bush term with him in office, no matter what anybody thinks. They are not the same person and it shows.

Sometimes the truth sounds crazy... and sometimes it just plain is crazy... sometimes life is crazy.

If people think that Obama is going to make the sky open up and rain change... well, they will think that. Personally, based on what he's said, I'm concerned... But, I'm usually always concerned.

[phatlip12]

I don't agree with everything he says, but who agrees with everything anybody says? In my estimation, he would be a better choice than the 2 alternatives. Obama isn't fit to be president and McCain likes to think himself a Maverick... and that is problematic... although, it would definitely not be another Bush term with him in office, no matter what anybody thinks. They are not the same person and it shows.

Sometimes the truth sounds crazy... and sometimes it just plain is crazy... sometimes life is crazy.

If people think that Obama is going to make the sky open up and rain change... well, they will think that. Personally, based on what he's said, I'm concerned... But, I'm usually always concerned.

Why Ron Paul though? He's not going to win.

[bigstupid]

Ron Paul? Didn't he give up?

I guess... sort of... Although, his support is actually growing...

He is having a rally here in St. Paul during the RNC...

I think people want change... obviously... but, they don't really know to what or how to get there. They think that the Blue pill is going to make it all go away... and it's not.

[bigstupid]

Why Ron Paul though? He's not going to win.

I understand where you're coming from... but, I don't base all my decisions on the likelihood of them succeeding. Sometimes, you have to take a stand, even if nobody else cares.

[phatlip12]

I understand where you're coming from... but, I don't base all my decisions on the likelihood of them succeeding. Sometimes, you have to take a stand, even if nobody else cares.

I guess thats like my Olympic protest then. It's going to accomplish absolutely nothing but if it makes you feel better why not? As long as you're not delusional and think he's going to win more power to ya.

[rabidbadger]

hate doing this to a friend, but gonna disagree.

Protesting is worthwhile and often succesful (see:Ghandi) and a protest vote in our "limited" system is just as legit as our vote for the "popular" candidates.

we all count. and should all be counted. Is there a better system for democracy I don't know about?

[phatlip12]

hate doing this to a friend, but gonna disagree.

Protesting is worthwhile and often succesful (see:Ghandi) and a protest vote in our "limited" system is just as legit as our vote for the "popular" candidates.

we all count. and should all be counted. Is there a better system for democracy I don't know about?

While he's protesting I'll be voting for the next president of the United States.


Just saying.

[rabidbadger]

While he's protesting I'll be voting for the next president of the United States.


Just saying.

ME too! haha.

[Quix]

well, they all learned from Bill Clintons war room, Radio just said mccain is calling Biden Obaama's "leadership gap" Not too bad.

It's not bad, but it's not too great.

I understand where you're coming from... but, I don't base all my decisions on the likelihood of them succeeding. Sometimes, you have to take a stand, even if nobody else cares.

Definitely agree on that. I won't be voting for Paul(just because there are numerous policies of his I don't agree with), but if he's the one you're closest to agreeing with, more power to you.

While he's protesting I'll be voting for the next president of the United States.


Just saying.ME too! haha.



Me three. :D

[burkhartmj]

I've been apathetic towards this whole election for quite some time, but now I'm actually considering voting. If some of you could post up links detailing each candidate's platform, I'd be extremely thankful [and please no biased BS, like rep. pages about Obama or dem. pages about McCain].

So far from what I know, Obama concerns me. Unlike most of this board [but not all], I'm a staunch conservative and a lot of Obama's beliefs that are in line with his party bother me, and despite what people say, McCain is pretty socially liberal as well, so I'm not really happy with either candidate. Being a cynic rather than an idealist, I can't in good faith vote for someone I have no confidence in winning, so the point of asking for information on the 2 major candidates is to know which one I would consider the lesser of 2 evils.

[phatlip12]

I've been apathetic towards this whole election for quite some time, but now I'm actually considering voting. If some of you could post up links detailing each candidate's platform, I'd be extremely thankful [and please no biased BS, like rep. pages about Obama or dem. pages about McCain].

So far from what I know, Obama concerns me. Unlike most of this board [but not all], I'm a staunch conservative and a lot of Obama's beliefs that are in line with his party bother me, and despite what people say, McCain is pretty socially liberal as well, so I'm not really happy with either candidate. Being a cynic rather than an idealist, I can't in good faith vote for someone I have no confidence in winning, so the point of asking for information on the 2 major candidates is to know which one I would consider the lesser of 2 evils.

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

http://www.johnmccain.com/

http://www.votesmart.org/index.htm

Not being a dick, but it's important for you to do your own research so you can come to your own decision without any bias. A voter should be well informed and it shouldn't be a decision you make at the drop of a hat. Good luck. Let us know how it goes and if you feel like it share with us your views. We're always up for a debate (it doesn't matter who you choose- SOMEONE will have something to say about it I'm sure :D ).

[masherscf]

oh. no doubt they will come up with somethings, and some might stick, but not with the majority.

It's like throwing shit at the wall. You don't have to get much to stick before it starts to stink.

[skyz]

Umm, Obama beat Clinton. Nuff said.

and mccain will beat obama (not that i am for nccain)

you're 'anyone but hillary' will get you mccain

you could have had hillary

she was your best opportunity

obama is a lightweight someone like putin would eat him for breakfast

he won against hillary because people love to hate powerful people

people who are not for obama don't hate him they either scratch their heads or laugh at him

when all is said and done in november and it is prez mccain

no one will hate obama

he will be laughable

all this narcissism and melodrama and $ for nothing but a momentary 'place in the sun'

you could have had hillary and you will live to regret it

and i am young and educated so don't bother to go to the baby boomer uneducated argument

people are way too easily manipulated by the wrong factors

so on inauguration day when you see prez maccain take the oath of office ask yourself if you wouldn't rather be watching hillary

if you hate hillary that much then my dear friends you are the problem

[skyz]

baby momma didn't stick, and was racist and was rejected by all but those who would never vote for him anyway. He can stay above the fray now, and let Biden eat their lunch. Mccain's a lazy wimp, the swift boating worked when we all had houses, jobs, and gas, but that has changed. The general populace is suffering (in a first world sense) and ain't gonna put up with that again.

Sadly, I have no doubt the in charge republicans will do something nefarious, fake/allow another attack, martial law, "hold off" elections "temporarily" forever.

/tinfoil. til proven right.

obamamaniac's back up plan 'if obama doesn't win they cheated not ever we were wrong

i almost wish he would win to see how long it would take to see digg's front page call obama on his not kept promises or implied policies to be not realized

you may be the biggest draft pick going but if you drop the ball and the other team beats you then people will notice

either way we're not going to improve on bush

and that is really pathetic

and the responsibility is almost all our own

eww 'anyone but HER'

you asked for it you are going to get it

now don't whine about the results of your choice

[ohhoe]

kucinich kucinich kucinich!

[skyz]

kucinich kucinich kucinich!

that would have been the enlightened choice for veep

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

If some of you could post up links detailing each candidate's platform, I'd be extremely thankful..

http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm

[comhcinc]

Do you think they would waste all that money printing those to "trick" you?
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. sucker.


sorry i have been busy the last couple of days and just need to get that out of my systerm.

[Quix]

kucinich kucinich kucinich!

Oh, I wish. Kucinich was the candidate who I think was the most in line with my views on the issues.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm

The McCain page misses one of his big hypocrisies. McCain voted against a Democratic bill banning torture(waterboarding specifically) and yet he always claims that he doesn't support torture.

[tokenuser]

I like how Swiftboating is now a negative term.... Kerry, if I remember right (it's been a few years) started all the crap by telling blatant lies about what the guys he served with did in the war... I'd be pissed too, if some douche started telling people I was a baby killer.Ummmm .... no.

It was the Swiftboaters (well, those who were involved in the 527 organisation that funded the smear campaign) about Kerry's role, and how he got his Purple Hearts (note the plural), and Silver Star that were lying.

Noone who served with Kerry on his Swiftboat, or in his chain of command had anything bad to say about his actions during the Vietnam war ... he was a decorated war veteran, and the Swiftboaters and the "truthers" that rallied to that organisation should have been ashamed of themselves for stooping to those sort of tactics - as it brought discredit to thier names and military history as well.

Oh yeah - Ron Paul is not a nut job ... but I doubt the mental capacity of many of the conspiracy theorist, prisonplant/infowars/alex-jones-listeners, nut jobs that do support him. If you like his political stand from a policy perspective, well and good, but if its because of Alex Jones and his media affiliation - both online and broadcast - you need to seriously take a look at the sources of their information. Unfortunately, hiding behind the first amendment and dishing out slander and libel is perfectly legal.

[burkhartmj]

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

http://www.johnmccain.com/

http://www.votesmart.org/index.htm

Not being a dick, but it's important for you to do your own research so you can come to your own decision without any bias. A voter should be well informed and it shouldn't be a decision you make at the drop of a hat. Good luck. Let us know how it goes and if you feel like it share with us your views. We're always up for a debate (it doesn't matter who you choose- SOMEONE will have something to say about it I'm sure :D ).

No offense taken, and I agree. I was mainly asking for info from here because it'd be a good point to start at. Thanks for the links, and I'll probably be back here, have this thread subscribed to.

[phatlip12]

I just read this about Biden and I'm not happy. He seems to be in support of internet taxes and is against net neutrality. Going into such a profession my vote for Obama had a lot to do with that. Obama seemed to be pretty good and knowledgeable as far as technology concerns. But how could he pick a VP with such backwards thinking?

Yep. No longer an Obama supporter- I'm done defending him. He still has my vote but it's definitely a lesser of two evil vote.

http://gizmodo.com/5041044/vp-candidate-biden-is-no-friend-to-file-sharing-net-neutrality-protection-or-online-privacy

[ohhoe]

I just read this about Biden and I'm not happy. He seems to be in support of internet taxes and is against net neutrality. Going into such a profession my vote for Obama had a lot to do with that. Obama seemed to be pretty good and knowledgeable as far as technology concerns. But how could he pick a VP with such backwards thinking?

Yep. No longer an Obama supporter- I'm done defending him. He still has my vote but it's definitely a lesser of two evil vote.

http://gizmodo.com/5041044/vp-candidate-biden-is-no-friend-to-file-sharing-net-neutrality-protection-or-online-privacy

Vote for somebody else?

[phatlip12]

Vote for somebody else?

I don't want to waste my vote away. I'd rather do what I can to keep the guy I REALLY don't want to win out of office.

[bigstupid]

Ummmm .... no.

It was the Swiftboaters (well, those who were involved in the 527 organisation that funded the smear campaign) about Kerry's role, and how he got his Purple Hearts (note the plural), and Silver Star that were lying.

Noone who served with Kerry on his Swiftboat, or in his chain of command had anything bad to say about his actions during the Vietnam war ... he was a decorated war veteran, and the Swiftboaters and the "truthers" that rallied to that organisation should have been ashamed of themselves for stooping to those sort of tactics - as it brought discredit to thier names and military history as well.

Oh yeah - Ron Paul is not a nut job ... but I doubt the mental capacity of many of the conspiracy theorist, prisonplant/infowars/alex-jones-listeners, nut jobs that do support him. If you like his political stand from a policy perspective, well and good, but if its because of Alex Jones and his media affiliation - both online and broadcast - you need to seriously take a look at the sources of their information. Unfortunately, hiding behind the first amendment and dishing out slander and libel is perfectly legal.

I didn't say anything about anyone else having anything bad to say... I said Kerry was saying a lot of stuff (under oath) that appeared to not be the truth. Of course, I wasn't there, so how would I know... or anyone else for that matter? Unless people who were there say different...

As to the Ron Paul... I've heard him say he in no way supports those kinds of theories about the world trade center and so on... It's just that those people flocked to his candidacy, because he was an honest guy and they felt and still do feel, that he would get to the bottom of it all and give truth rather than half-truths and gorilla dust. I don't give a rats ass about Alex Jones and I'm sick and tired of people harpooning and saddling Paul with that garbage. At least you seem to have a level head tokenuser, which is more than I can say for a lot of people.

As far as Ron Paul goes... he tells it like it is and he doesn't think the government is there to wipe your ass and tell you it's going to be all right... (very simplistic interpretation on my part for the sake of brevity).

[ohhoe]

I didn't say anything about anyone else having anything bad to say... I said Kerry was saying a lot of stuff (under oath) that appeared to not be the truth. Of course, I wasn't there, so how would I know... or anyone else for that matter? Unless people who were there say different...

As to the Ron Paul... I've heard him say he in no way supports those kinds of theories about the world trade center and so on... It's just that those people flocked to his candidacy, because he was an honest guy and they felt and still do feel, that he would get to the bottom of it all and give truth rather than half-truths and gorilla dust. I don't give a rats ass about Alex Jones and I'm sick and tired of people harpooning and saddling Paul with that garbage. At least you seem to have a level head tokenuser, which is more than I can say for a lot of people.

As far as Ron Paul goes... he tells it like it is and he doesn't think the government is there to wipe your ass and tell you it's going to be all right... (very simplistic interpretation on my part for the sake of brevity).

Okay, but what about all the other things he's for that are ridiculous?

http://pope-guilty.livejournal.com/566142.html
^^ there with links

[phatlip12]

As to the Ron Paul... I've heard him say he in no way supports those kinds of theories about the world trade center and so on...

...I'm sick and tired of people harpooning and saddling Paul with that garbage.

Then Ron Paul should stop being what appears to be a regular guest on Alex Jones program. It makes it seem as though he does believe in that same sort of stuff.

[bigstupid]

Okay, but what about all the other things he's for that are ridiculous?

http://pope-guilty.livejournal.com/566142.html
^^ there with links

What a border fence? How is that ridiculous? Defining life at conception? Hey, he's a Republican and he's a doctor that helps bring life into this world... what do you expect him to say about that? He has made it clear that he doesn't think it is something that should be put into the Constitution and instead should be settled by the States... Much like gay marriage, which he doesn't even have a problem with, as it's a freedom of association.

There are trade organizations in the world and there were and still are plans (in various forms) that exist to try and make a larger economic union here, like in Europe. This isn't new and it's not crazy (in the fact that these sentiments and goals seem to exist). I think it would be very difficult to do this here... but, if the right circumstances arose, it would make it easier.

What's wrong with abolishing the reserve? It's done nothing but compromise certain aspects of our economy. We do print money... and we do seem to do it out of thin air... he's right. They screw with our ability to be a free economy, by saddling us with short-term solutions, to long-term problems.

What's wrong with getting rid of the income tax as we know it? Why is it so important that we have it? Oh, that's right, to fund bullshit we don't need. It would be much better to have a use tax or a flat tax of some kind, instead we can look forward to everyone paying 40+ percent of their income on income tax alone by 2040.

He was thinking of a black VP... how the hell is the man racist? Because someone writes some shit in a newsletter he doesn't even manage himself (which is very common).... Have you seen the guy? He's been reported widely by people who know him both personally and professionally as being nothing of the kind.

We all know how things get blown out of proportion....

Personally, I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative (more or less) and that's why I like Paul (more or less).

What's the big deal, I mean if Kucinich can see a UFO(I don't hold that against him, but I know many do) ...

[bigstupid]

Then Ron Paul should stop being what appears to be a regular guest on Alex Jones program. It makes it seem as though he does believe in that same sort of stuff.

I understand what you are saying... but, that would go against what he believes in... freedom of association and freedom of ideas... It's like sending the money back from a known racist... What the hells the point? If he feels the money could be put to a better use and the guy gives it up willingly... that's just how he views things. I personally find it refreshing... But, I know how people tend to take things like that.

[phatlip12]

I understand what you are saying... but, that would go against what he believes in... freedom of association and freedom of ideas... It's like sending the money back from a known racist... What the hells the point? If he feels the money could be put to a better use and the guy gives it up willingly... that's just how he views things. I personally find it refreshing... But, I know how people tend to take things like that.

Still, it makes no sense that he's a regular guest on the program if it's something he doesn't believe in.

[bigshotprof]

A cautionary tale.
In the 90s when Guiliani ran against incumbant mayor David Dinkins (who is black), the night before the polls opened Dinkins recorded an 11 point lead in the polls. The next day, Guiliani won by a little less than 1%. Subsequent investigation of the phenomenon indicated that race played a significant role in the decision by people who voted differently than they said they would.

First, that was Manhattan--heart of the great liberal conspircy. Second, Dinkins was an incumbant and known product. What do you think is going to happen on election day 2008, when millions of white people walk into a voting both, in private, and contemplate voting for the first Black president? They might not be open racists; they might just feel that same vague tug most white people feel when they are walking down a dark street and see two black males hanging out. "Me? Vote on race? No way; it's just that McCain has experience."

Now thing about an entire generation of Americas living under the shadow of a Supreme Court that is 6-3 conservative and contolled by Scalia. Even MOR Republicans should fear that.

We can whine all we want about the sad state of American politics, but we can't stay home and let that happen.

[Quix]

I just read this about Biden and I'm not happy. He seems to be in support of internet taxes and is against net neutrality. Going into such a profession my vote for Obama had a lot to do with that. Obama seemed to be pretty good and knowledgeable as far as technology concerns. But how could he pick a VP with such backwards thinking?

Yep. No longer an Obama supporter- I'm done defending him. He still has my vote but it's definitely a lesser of two evil vote.

http://gizmodo.com/5041044/vp-candidate-biden-is-no-friend-to-file-sharing-net-neutrality-protection-or-online-privacy

My guess is he simply chose Biden because he thinks Biden will be a good attack dog and that Obama knows he'll be the one making the call on issues like Net Neutrality, not Biden.

A cautionary tale.
In the 90s when Guiliani ran against incumbant mayor David Dinkins (who is black), the night before the polls opened Dinkins recorded an 11 point lead in the polls. The next day, Guiliani won by a little less than 1%. Subsequent investigation of the phenomenon indicated that race played a significant role in the decision by people who voted differently than they said they would.

First, that was Manhattan--heart of the great liberal conspircy. Second, Dinkins was an incumbant and known product. What do you think is going to happen on election day 2008, when millions of white people walk into a voting both, in private, and contemplate voting for the first Black president? They might not be open racists; they might just feel that same vague tug most white people feel when they are walking down a dark street and see two black males hanging out. "Me? Vote on race? No way; it's just that McCain has experience."

Now thing about an entire generation of Americas living under the shadow of a Supreme Court that is 6-3 conservative and contolled by Scalia. Even MOR Republicans should fear that.

We can whine all we want about the sad state of American politics, but we can't stay home and let that happen.

I'm definitely nervous that racism, unconscious and otherwise, will do Obama in.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

I tried to google this and couldn't find a solid answer. I even saw some leftists defending this, but I wanted to post this in here to ask.

Is this true about Obama?

Barack Obama's Ten Point Plan To "Change" The Second Amendment
1) Ban use of firearms for home defense.
2) Pass Federal laws eliminating your Right-to-Carry.
3) Ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.
4) Close down 90% of the gun shops in America.
5) Ban rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.
6) Increase federal taxes on guns and ammunition by 500 percent.
7) Restore voting rights for five million criminals including those who have been convicted of using a gun to commit a violent crime.
8) Expand the Clinton semi-auto ban to include millions more firearms.
9) Mandate a government-issued license to purchase a firearm.
10) Appoint judges to the U.S. Supreme Court and Federal judiciary who share his views on the Second Amendment.

Obama has changed his site to conveniently hide his stance on guns now after the 2nd amendment thing, so I can't find a solid source that this is really what he wants.

[masherscf]

I tried to google this and couldn't find a solid answer. I even saw some leftists defending this, but I wanted to post this in here to ask.

Is this true about Obama?

Barack Obama's Ten Point Plan To "Change" The Second Amendment

Obama has changed his site to conveniently hide his stance on guns now after the 2nd amendment thing, so I can't find a solid source that this is really what he wants.

I don't know. Some of those seem pretty radical to me. Are you sure it's not just scary BS.

[tokenuser]

I tried to google this and couldn't find a solid answer. I even saw some leftists defending this, but I wanted to post this in here to ask.Can't comment on the 10 point plan specifically, but did hear an excert from his picnic speach at the Rod and Gun Park from yesterday where he said he defended the 2nd amendment and a persons right to own firearms.

People have to remember that having better AND UNIFORM laws on gun control does not mean removing the second amendment.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

I don't know. Some of those seem pretty radical to me. Are you sure it's not just scary BS.I agree, however, Liberals think like this which made me want to look into it. Even com says he wants the second amendment changed, so I could see him voting for this hands down. I personally don't think any presidential candidate would be this stupid to ever say that kind of stuff. Even Obama.

Can't comment on the 10 point plan specifically, but did hear an excert from his picnic speach at the Rod and Gun Park from yesterday where he said he defended the 2nd amendment and a persons right to own firearms.Yea, I know, he was against it before he was for it before he was against it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJFO6COAMCY). Like he can't disown his reverend, then he did, like he wants withdrawal from Iraq, but now he doesn't. It's just so hard to keep up with it all I guess.

[phatlip12]

Yea, I know, he was against it before he was for it before he was against it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJFO6COAMCY).

I fail to see how he flip flopped.

[gimpbully]

redacted - not gettin into this

[bigshotprof]

I tried to google this and couldn't find a solid answer. I even saw some leftists defending this, but I wanted to post this in here to ask.

Is this true about Obama?

[.

The alleged source of this list is the American Rifleman (sept 08)-the house organ of the NRA. My copy must have gotten lost in the mail, but there is no mention of this list in their online table of contents. I think if it was true, it would be all over the place. As it is it is only appearing in threads.

there are a lot of traditional signs that it is bogus--

legal impossibilities and false dichotomies (total ban of guns for home defense)
exact stats that don't mean anything (500% increase in taxes).

etc.

it has to be a farce.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

I fail to see how he flip flopped.

FLIP
Interviewer: "You support the DC hand gun ban..."
Obama: "Right."
Interviewer: "...and you said that it's constitutional."
Obama: "Right."
----
Do you support state legislation to ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? - ANSWER: YES.
----
Obama wants to reimpose a federal gun ban.
Obama voted against the sale of almost all ammunition used regularly for sport shooting and hunting.
Obama opposes Right to Carry laws.
Obama supports a complete ban on hand-gun ownership.
----
Obama: “I am not in favor of concealed weapons...I think that creates a potential atmosphere where more innocent people could (get shot during) altercations.”

FLOP
Obama: "I have said consistently that I believe that the second amendment is an individual right."
Obama: "I have no intention of taking away folks’ guns."

I'd really love to find where his "gun stance" page on his website went. It has "mysteriously" been hidden since this happened.

redacted - not gettin into thisGood idea, we'd probably break the "edit" button link trying to modify his new stance every day.

[tokenuser]

OK, here goes ....

REALITY: OBAMA HAS CONSISTENTLY SUPPORTED COMMON SENSE GUN CONTROL, AS WELL AS THE RIGHTS OF LAW-ABIDING GUN OWNERS

Obama Supported A Package Of Legislation That Would Limit Handgun Sales To One A Month. ''The package closes the Firearm Owners Identification (FOID) card loopholes which resulted in the shooting out in Melrose Park. We're eliminating 17 specific assault weapons. There is no reason why anybody should need an assault weapon to protect themselves or their family,' Obama said. 'We're limiting handgun sales to one a month. 'We're calling for handgun registration. It's very hard right now to track whether or not a felon has turned in his weapons or if he has a FOID card because we don't know how many weapons he has purchased.'" [Chicago Defender, 2/20/01]

Obama Voted To Prohibit Multiple Sales Of Handguns Within A 30-Day Period. In 2003, Obama voted to create the offense of unlawful acquisition of handguns, prohibiting the multiple sales of handguns within a 30-day period. In 2000, Obama was co-sponsor of bill prohibiting the transfer of more than one handgun within a 30-day period. The bill exempted federally licensed firearm dealers who purchase handguns in the regular course of business, military, law enforcement officials and certain hunters. [93rd GA, HB 2579, 5/16/03, 3R L; 23-36-0; 91st GA; SB 1614; 2000]

Obama Disagreed With The NRA That "People Should Be Unimpeded And Unregulated On Gun Ownership;" In Favor Of Handgun Registration And Licensing Requirements. Obama said, "I know that the NRA believes people should be unimpeded and unregulated on gun ownership. I disagree. I do not object to the lawful use and ownership of firearms, but I do think it is entirely it appropriate for the state to monitor it. Too many of these guns end up in the hands of criminals even though they were originally purchased by people who did not have a felony. I'll continue to be in favor of handgun law registration requirements and licensing requirements for training." [Chicago Defender, 7/5/01]

Obama: America Has A "Tradition Of Gun Ownership In This Country That Can Be Respected." The Weekly Standard reported, "When a student asks Obama for his views on the Second Amendment, he reminds his audience that he taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago and is thus familiar with the arguments regarding the right to bear arms. He acknowledges 'a tradition of gun ownership in this country that can be respected,' and says that his academic studies convinced him gun ownership 'is an individual right and not just the right of a militia.' But he was not finished. 'Like all rights, though, they are constrained by the needs and the rights of the community.' Obama then spoke of 34 students who were killed on the streets of Chicago and called for sensible gun control to prevent senseless death. He speaks of the importance of parental involvement in education before listing the many ways in which he would expand the role of the federal government in the schools." [Weekly Standard, 12/17/07]

(Source - http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/12/11/fact_check_no_news_in_obamas_c.php)

PROTECTING GUN RIGHTS
Respect the Second Amendment: Millions of hunters and shooters own and use guns each year. Barack Obama believes the Second Amendment creates an individual right, and he respects the constitutional rights of
Americans to bear arms. He will protect the rights of hunters and other law-abiding Americans to purchase, own, transport, and use guns.

(Source - http://www.barackobama.com/issues/additional/Obama_FactSheet_Western_Sportsmen.pdf)

Address Gun Violence in Cities: As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama also favors commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals who shouldn't have them. He supports closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. He also supports making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent, as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets.

(Source - http://www.barackobama.com/issues/urbanpolicy/)

Its all out there is you want to search for it.

http://www.google.com/search?q=gun+site%3Awww.barackobama.com

[bigstupid]

OK, here goes ....



(Source - http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/12/11/fact_check_no_news_in_obamas_c.php)



(Source - http://www.barackobama.com/issues/additional/Obama_FactSheet_Western_Sportsmen.pdf)



(Source - http://www.barackobama.com/issues/urbanpolicy/)

Its all out there is you want to search for it.

http://www.google.com/search?q=gun+site%3Awww.barackobama.com

This, of course, does not put into the equation that while you might not need an automatic or certain semi-automatic weapon to protect yourself or your family from thieves and brigands, a 5 to 8 shot revolver is not always the ideal weapon of choice when fighting off a government gone wild (show us your gun barrels baby!) The use of the phrase 'sensible gun laws' sends shivers down my spine. People constantly fail to realize that the Second Amendment does not exist for hunting... it exists to protect people from a tyrannical government... everything else just sort of comes along for the ride with that one.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

OK, here goes ....Right.... I'm posting video contradicting what he "claims" to believe in. Despite his sweet "fact" check website. He seems to just "roll" with the tide.

"let me say this and see what the voters think... ah crap, wait, let me say this now... now this..."

"For the first time in my adult life," I actually think McCain has a chance. Unfortunately.

[ohhoe]

Right.... I'm posting video contradicting what he "claims" to believe in. Despite his sweet "fact" check website. He seems to just "roll" with the tide.

"let me say this and see what the voters think... ah crap, wait, let me say this now... now this..."

"For the first time in my adult life," I actually think McCain has a chance. Unfortunately.

I more than think he has a chance, and I hate him.

I'm so over it though. Because seriously, the small group of people that want to make a difference doesn't mean shit in this country.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

I more than think he has a chance, and I hate him.Yea, unfortunately you're right. I didn't think he had a chance in hell at the start, but I think he's at least 50/50 at this point.

*edit*
thank you sammy for the thread title change. :)

[bigstupid]

I more than think he has a chance, and I hate him.

I'm so over it though. Because seriously, the small group of people that want to make a difference doesn't mean shit in this country.

I don't think you should give up, no matter what or who you believe in. The worst thing a person can do, is give up... we do it too often and many times, we give up on ourselves and our dreams in the process.

I'm not saying this is the case here, but the post seemed pretty down.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

I don't think you should give up, no matter what or who you believe in. The worst thing a person can do, is give up... we do it too often and many times, we give up on ourselves and our dreams in the process.

I'm not saying this is the case here, but the post seemed pretty down.I agree with you on this as well. I can't stand the "I'm throwing my vote away if I do..."

No, you're not. You're voting for what you believe in. If the 3rd party guy only gets one vote, your vote, you voted the way you wanted. It's because so many people think that way is why that crap happens.

[ohhoe]

I agree with you on this as well. I can't stand the "I'm throwing my vote away if I do..."

No, you're not. You're voting for what you believe in. If the 3rd party guy only gets one vote, your vote, you voted the way you wanted. It's because so many people think that way is why that crap happens.

Oh well yeah, unless something happens between now and then that sways me towards Obama, I'm voting for Kucinich.

[phatlip12]

Oh well yeah, unless something happens between now and then that sways me towards Obama, I'm voting for Kucinich.

He's been out of the race for over half a year now dear.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

...I'm voting for Kucinich.Who the hell is that? A character from The Hunt for Red October? :D

[xibalba]

I hear people talking about voting for the lesser of 2 evils, screw that I say vote for the greater evil.

[phatlip12]

vote for the greater evil.

You're running for president?

:D

;)

[xibalba]

You're running for president?

:D

;)

I wish, but don't you have to be like 35 or something to run. Of course you all could write me in and see what happens. :D

[phatlip12]

I wish, but don't you have to be like 35 or something to run. Of course you all could write me in and see what happens. :D

Who the hell is this "xibalba" guy?

haha

[Guytheninja]

I wish, but don't you have to be like 35 or something to run. Of course you all could write me in and see what happens. :D

Even if your party platform is fiddling while Washington DC burns, you will still be a much better candidate then what we have running now.

[xibalba]

Rise your wrist up in the air
And wave your razorblades like you just don't care
Use your voice, make homicide your choice

Politics coming straight from the crypt
Stirring up the world with its ugly stick
Put your faith in a shallow grave today

Red, yellow, black or white
It doesn't matter -- everyone dies tonight

Hooray for homicide
My left wing's baked and my right wing's fried
Vote for me and I'll legalize everything

Splish splash you're in a blood bath
Intentionally headed down the wrong path
But a dollar sign won't make you smile in your grave

Red, yellow, black or white
It doesn't matter -- everyone dies tonight

I'm on your side!

Vote for me!

Red, yellow, black or white
It doesn't matter -- everyone dies tonight

Trust in me

[ohhoe]

He's been out of the race for over half a year now dear.

REALLY?!?!

I don't care. I agree with his views more than any of the two major candidates and their VP's, so why should I have to vote for them when there are other options?


Shit, I'll write in Homer Simpson if I wanted.

[phatlip12]

REALLY?!?!

I don't care. I agree with his views more than any of the two major candidates and their VP's, so why should I have to vote for them when there are other options?


Shit, I'll write in Homer Simpson if I wanted.

I really liked him as well. I was bummed when he ended his campaign for president. I liked him the most.

[esophagus]

REALLY?!?!

I don't care. I agree with his views more than any of the two major candidates and their VP's, so why should I have to vote for them when there are other options?


Shit, I'll write in Homer Simpson if I wanted.You really didn't realize that? If you hadn't looked into Kucinich enough to realize that he dropped his big in January, you may want to look into this a little bit harded.

I don't mean that in as harsh a way as it sounds, this is just kind of a big deal.

[ohhoe]

You really didn't realize that? If you hadn't looked into Kucinich enough to realize that he dropped his big in January, you may want to look into this a little bit harded.

I don't mean that in as harsh a way as it sounds, this is just kind of a big deal.



Extreme amounts of sarcasm kind of are hard to realize via the internet, aren't they?



I know he 'dropped out of the race' but that's the standard shit that happens since each party only backs one candidate.

It doesn't mean that I can't vote for him.

[phatlip12]

Extreme amounts of sarcasm kind of are hard to realize via the internet, aren't they?

Um, are you sure about that? You really seemed serious. Like- really. It's not a big deal, just don't lie about it.

I mean, you also said McCain announced his vice president and he hasn't yet.

"I agree with his views more than any of the two major candidates and their VP's"

[ohhoe]

Um, are you sure about that? You really seemed serious. Like- really. It's not a big deal, just don't lie about it.

I mean, you also said McCain announced his vice president and he hasn't yet.

"I agree with his views more than any of the two major candidates and their VP's"

Um, yes, I am serious. I know he dropped out of the race. I know the way things work. Why the hell would I lie about it?

And excuse me for not being more specific by saying "obama and biden and john mccain and whoever", I didn't say that John McCain picked his VP, I just generalized both of the main contenders for presidency... but I'm pretty sure whoever john mccain does pick I'm not going to agree with whatever bs they're for either.

[phatlip12]

Um, yes, I am serious. I know he dropped out of the race. I know the way things work. Why the hell would I lie about it?

And excuse me for not being more specific by saying "obama and biden and john mccain and whoever", I didn't say that John McCain picked his VP, I just generalized both of the main contenders for presidency... but I'm pretty sure whoever john mccain does pick I'm not going to agree with whatever bs they're for either.

Is it me or did this thread just get really awkward?

[ohhoe]

...sure...

I work for a politician, I'm not retarded.

[phatlip12]

I work for a politician, I'm not retarded.

I never implied you're retarded. I think you're very intelligent. I'm just saying it's not a big deal that you didn't know he didn't drop out. It's nothing to be embarrassed about- now you know.

[ohhoe]

I never implied you're retarded. I think you're very intelligent. I'm just saying it's not a big deal that you didn't know he didn't drop out. It's nothing to be embarrassed about- now you know.

I DID KNOW! How many times have I said I'm voting for him anyway?

[phatlip12]

I DID KNOW! How many times have I said I'm voting for him anyway?

Thats now what you said and certainly not what you implied. Thats what you went back and made edits to your posts pertaining to your "sarcasm". It's clear as day. You had no clue he dropped out. I just don't understand the need to not tell the truth about it.

[esophagus]

I would just like to say that I just didn't catch any implied sarcasm in the earlier post and am in no way involved in the ongoing awkwardness.

[phatlip12]

I would just like to say that I just didn't catch any implied sarcasm in the earlier post and am in no way involved in the ongoing awkwardness.

True.Dat

Time to move on.

Anyone else see Michelle Obama's speech tonight?

[ohhoe]

Thats now what you said and certainly not what you implied. Thats what you went back and made edits to your posts pertaining to your "sarcasm". It's clear as day. You had no clue he dropped out. I just don't understand the need to not tell the truth about it.

It's not clear as day, other than you thinking so.

Of course I knew he dropped out, as did the majority of EVERY OTHER CANDIDATE running against the two that got picked.

I canvassed, voted, and protested about the last election. After going through all that bullshit and having 4 years to learn more about the political system, I think I'd know a little bit about how it works and wouldn't need to "lie about" my knowledge pertaining to it.

I've said in a few other threads other than this one that I was going to vote for kucinich as well.

[rabidbadger]

True.Dat

Time to move on.

Anyone else see Michelle Obama's speech tonight?

I thought she did a great job. I'v never seen her speak before, and under the intense scrutiny she has been under, I thought she came off as strong, sincere, and honest. And the kids were just precious! :p

[rabidbadger]

It's not clear as day, other than you thinking so.

Of course I knew he dropped out, as did the majority of EVERY OTHER CANDIDATE running against the two that got picked.

I canvassed, voted, and protested about the last election. After going through all that bullshit and having 4 years to learn more about the political system, I think I'd know a little bit about how it works and wouldn't need to "lie about" my knowledge pertaining to it.

I've said in a few other threads other than this one that I was going to vote for kucinich as well.

I've read a ton of your other posts, so I know you know what you are talking about. I thought Kucinich wise, and adamant, and sincere all along. but he is just so... er... short. There! I said it out loud.




JK

[ohhoe]

I've read a ton of your other posts, so I know you know what you are talking about. I thought Kucinich wise, and adamant, and sincere all along. but he is just so... er... short. There! I said it out loud.




JK

and he's got a hot wife

[rabidbadger]

so. should we create a new McCain/? thread, or just add it to this one?

My best guess, and fondest hope, is Romney.

[rabidbadger]

and he's got a hot wife

Well, that doesn't do ME any good. :p

[ohhoe]

Well, that doesn't do ME any good. :p

Pssh, you can still appreciate pretty ladies when you see one!

http://www.clevelandpeople.com/images/events/02-07-08-irish-walks/elizabeth-kucinich.jpg

Pretty!

[rabidbadger]

Pssh, you can still appreciate pretty ladies when you see one!

http://www.clevelandpeople.com/images/events/02-07-08-irish-walks/elizabeth-kucinich.jpg

Pretty!

I sure can, but she's an autumn, and that make up is so winter, and what's with the busboy jacket. NOT fabulous! :D

[ohhoe]

I sure can, but she's an autumn, and that make up is so winter, and what's with the busboy jacket. NOT fabulous! :D

hahaha, okay okay.

[straylightrise]

i agree

[rabidbadger]

i agree

with what?

oh and mods, to appease our conservative friends, should we rename this thread "Obama Bin Biden" ?

[bigstupid]

--Thomas Jefferson--

"Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself."

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive."

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."


--Thomas Paine --

"That government is best which governs least."



You know... they were talking about Thomas Jefferson at the DNC tonight...

I don't think they really understand...

I don't think anyone really understands...

One party wants one flavor of control and the other party wants a slightly different flavor of control. But, in the end, it all tastes of ash... or ass, if you prefer.

[bigshotprof]

--Thomas Jefferson--

"Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself."

.

Did that apply to his tobacco farm?

[Quix]

I hear people talking about voting for the lesser of 2 evils, screw that I say vote for the greater evil.

I'm sure he looks forward to your vote. (http://palpatine08.com/)

I thought she did a great job. I'v never seen her speak before, and under the intense scrutiny she has been under, I thought she came off as strong, sincere, and honest. And the kids were just precious! :p

Same here.

[miss_vigilante]

I think Biden was a wise choice for Obama, and is good for America.


Although, what's good for America, doesn't seem to be good for me.

Canada here I come!

[bigstupid]

Did that apply to his tobacco farm?

Boy... I don't know. Of course, last I heard, you can't usually run a farm by yourself....

[tokenuser]

Boy... I don't know. Of course, last I heard, you can't usually run a farm by yourself....Well, you don't need to pay your workers either. Whats that called again?

[ohhoe]

Well, you don't need to pay your workers either. Whats that called again?

Do you think Santa pays the elves?

[xibalba]

Elves? They aren't elves, ever wonder what happens to these all kids that vanish it is Santa kidnapping them and making them work. When they reach a certain age they "accidently" fall into a woodchipper and become reindeer food.

[Quix]

That's it, I'm boycotting Santa.

[bigstupid]

Well, you don't need to pay your workers either. Whats that called again?

We all know.

The truth is, it was something that was acceptable for the time... even for Democrats. But, that was then.... and even then, not all liked the idea... even Jefferson, who for reasons of being in debt or something, felt like he had no other choice, but to keep them. Hypocrisy is nothing new in politics or life.

It's only in recent history that people find slavery truly abhorrent and it's no surprise that the level of distaste and outrage rises with the level of technology that can replace human labor. Obviously, when you get to the level of a Republic/Democracy... it becomes very difficult to maintain slavery as a viable option.

The important part to take away from this, which many of you might not realize and/or consider... Slavery is something that is mostly dependent on current societal, economic, and industrial conditions. It's not so much ethical as it's what does or does not necessitate such practices. (I know how that sounds)

Much like most people used to have multiple children 4,5,6,... ect. This is no longer necessary for survival or to eek out an existence, at least not in 1st world nations.

This is a clinical and detached way to look at it, but it has proven to be historically accurate. Also, remember that there isn't a color on this earth, that hasn't been touched by bondage.

Of course, I'm no expert, this is just my view, based on things I've read. I think it's a horrible practice, but then again, I'm a product of my time.

[darksydeavenger]

That's it, I'm boycotting Santa.


Well, you know that letters in "Santa" can be rearranged to spell "Satan," right? Damn right, you're boycotting him! Count me in too. :D

[bigstupid]

I thought she did a great job. I'v never seen her speak before, and under the intense scrutiny she has been under, I thought she came off as strong, sincere, and honest. And the kids were just precious! :p

Hey man.... I think you're a great guy (from what I see and know), but I just think this was very calculated.. and the children... that's unfortunate they were used like that. But, it's to be expected.... that's politics.

[ohhoe]

That's it, I'm boycotting Santa.

Nooo I love Santa. :(

[tokenuser]

Nooo I love Santa. :(His toys are laced with formaldehyde and painted with lead paint ... but do you hear consumer groups banning the TARIFF FREE import of toys from the North Pole each year? Calling them "gifts" does not deny their intrinsic value.

Between the distribution of goods and the illegal import of domesticated live stock, I am surprised that US Customs service hasn't banned Christmas a long time ago.

[rabidbadger]

Hey man.... I think you're a great guy (from what I see and know), thanks, :) I've been enjoying your posts, too.

but I just think this was very calculated.. and the children... that's unfortunate they were used like that. But, it's to be expected.... that's politics.

Yes it was calculated. All speeches are, political, sales, selfhelp, religious... That's the point. It wasn't supposed to be a lecture, it was supposed to be a sales pitch by the "Products" biggest, most loyal "customer."

If you have ever taken a public speaking class, you know there is a similar structure to all succesful speeches, not just the mechanics (begin, middle, end stuff) but how to "sell" your subject. But after all is said and done, a speech/pitch is succesful if the speaker comes off as honest and sincere. The goal was to sell Her husband to us in a way only a spouse can. And she did that with honesty and legit passion.

And considering it was a family/history speech, not a policy or lecture speech, I would have been disappointed if the products of their union were not "marched out" at the end. At least the kids weren't behind her during the whole show (yes it is all a show) to be cutesy constant reminders, they were brought out to say hi to their campaigning dad on the screen. And they were sincerely precosious and mostly unscripted. And honestly cute. Trust me on that. Kids usually annoy the hell out of me, haha.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

Anyone think any of the Clinton's are going to try to make some sort of fuss during the DNC or do you think they will keep quiet and go away peacefully?

[tokenuser]

Anyone think any of the Clinton's are going to try to make some sort of fuss during the DNC or do you think they will keep quiet and go away peacefully?I think the Clintons are 100% behind the Democrat Party and fairly accepting of the inevitable. I wouldn't be surprised if Hilary doesn't land a cabinet posting like Secretary of State as "compensation".

Hilary's 18,000,000 crackhead supporter (cracked ceiling? something like that) are another story. LET IT GO PEOPLE - SHE WAS OUT MANOUVERED.

I'd love to put them in a room (the 18M Hilary supporters that wont let go) with all the people who wont let go of Ron Paul, and just let them tear each other apart. It would be a great (cheap) way to get rid of a segment of the population who are too clueless to vote.

[rabidbadger]

neither. They gona get the Pumas in line and defeat the dark side.

[ohhoe]

Anyone think any of the Clinton's are going to try to make some sort of fuss during the DNC or do you think they will keep quiet and go away peacefully?

How cute! You made what I said your signature.

[masherscf]

In 1980, Ted Kennedy didn't give up until they counted the votes officially.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

neither. They gona get the Pumas in line and defeat the dark side.Ha, we'll see!

I think the Clintons are 100% behind the Democrat Party and fairly accepting of the inevitable. I wouldn't be surprised if Hilary doesn't land a cabinet posting like Secretary of State as "compensation".I agree she's 100% Democrat, but I still think she's sitting behind the scenes (especially with her husband yapping in her ear) thinking over and over "that should have been me."

[masherscf]

Ha, we'll see!

I agree she's 100% Democrat, but I still think she's sitting behind the scenes (especially with her husband yapping in her ear) thinking over and over "that should have been me."

And, Cleopatra was the queen of denile.

Anyhow, I promised you last summer that Hillary wouldn't be the next President.

[tokenuser]

I agree she's 100% Democrat, but I still think she's sitting behind the scenes (especially with her husband yapping in her ear) thinking over and over "that should have been me."No argument there ... and I still think that she'd have made a perfectly acceptable President, but wouldn't have been able to work well enough with Obama to be VP. As I said - she'll get a powerful posting like Sec State, and with Bill as her sensei she'd do a good job of it too.

I am a little disappointed in McCain to be honest. when he was running against Bush in the 2000 primaries, I thought he really had his head screwed on straight ... and even as a liberal (who can't vote in the US) I might have voted for him (if I could - but would probably have voted Gore).

8 years ago, he'd have been a great leader ... but now I am not so sure. He's lost the plot.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

Anyhow, I promised you last summer that Hillary wouldn't be the next President.Never say never! We'll see this Thursday.

[phatlip12]

Never say never! We'll see this Thursday.

Doesn't look like it. She's speaking very highly of Obama and is stressing unity and support.

[Quix]

Well, you know that letters in "Santa" can be rearranged to spell "Satan," right? Damn right, you're boycotting him! Count me in too. :D

Nooo I love Santa. :(

:D

Anyone think any of the Clinton's are going to try to make some sort of fuss during the DNC or do you think they will keep quiet and go away peacefully?

Neither, I think they'll both advocate for Barack Obama and try to get PUMA and its offshoots to stop acting like children and support the Democratic Party. Even if their critics are 100% right and the Clintons are motivated solely by self-interest, they have nothing to gain from a fuss. That would set them up to be blamed if Obama loses, which would torpedo any chance Hillary has of running in 2012. On the other hand, if he loses despite their best efforts, they're set up perfectly for 2012. There's also the fact that I'm sure Hillary would rather work with a Democratic President than a Republican.

[skyz]

SHE WAS OUT MANOUVERED.



exactly outmaneuvered not necessarily bested

but we will all have to live with the results whatever they might be

which we won't really know for a least a few years

so whether this was a good or not so good thing will be realized in full view of everyone

expectations and realizations are not often the same

so any true analysis will have to wait till we have some actions to comment on

from either prez obama or prez mccain

believing that rev3 would be successful is not what made rev3 successful

it required savvy insight and competent execution

we shall see

at least we will eventually know if the best candidate prevailed

hillary spoke well she did her job as a prominent member of the democratic party

she was in no way bitter or destructive or subversive

she is not nobody or nothing because she came in a very close second to obama

i think she is a truly brilliant person and i think she really is deeply concerned about the welfare of america and the world

she is not second rate or second class

plus she looked great absolutely radiant

i admire her

[rabidbadger]

I've been a big Fan of Ms. Clinton since I saw her on that old old 60 minutes ep when Bill first started getting limelight. I was thrilled to see a "political wife" not being a token wife, smile and gaze lovingly wife, or a non-entity wife, But a strong, outspoken equal partner. In fact it was the equal partner thing that most probably saved the marriage. He knew she would not put up with that shit, and he knew that he would never find a woman like her in the floozies he bedded. Not as a life partner, anyway. She has been a Great Senator in my state because she pays attention to the "flyover counties" so to speak, visits Rochester regularly, Not just Albany and NYC. One reason I voted for Obama was because I wanted to keep her in NY state. (but she will most probably be Secertary of State or something. In my mind, would LOVE her to be Attorney General, especially now that Edwards is out of the picture)

And she's young enough and determined enough to run again in 4 or 8 years.

[tokenuser]

... she will most probably be Secertary of State or something. In my mind, would LOVE her to be Attorney General, especially now that Edwards is out of the pictureI can see her being Sec State as well, as I said before - she has a great statesman as a sensei ... and as a former president, Bill gets all the security briefs, so is right up on world affairs.

The irony is just how well Bill and Bush Sr work together on world affairs - bipartisan politics at its best, and something that is bounf to be influential in anything Hilary does.

I wouldn't discount Edwards as AG though. He is not a sitting representative in any house, and could easily be appointed. He is laying low, and the whole affair thing doesn't seem to be making much of a difference - because, like Bill and Hilary, his marriage was strong enough to survive the public scrutiny.

[rabidbadger]

ahhh. all good points Token. especially what's in bills briefs. (which we all know WAY to much about ;) ) But hmm, maybe we should play the"what's in Baraks' Cabinet?" game. Who would be AG, SS, etc...

[tokenuser]

ahhh. all good points Token. especially what's in bills briefs. (which we all know WAY to much about ;) ) But hmm, maybe we should play the"what's in Baraks' Cabinet?" game. Who would be AG, SS, etc...SecDef is the mystery one to me.

[rabidbadger]

Clark

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

ClarkKent.

[tokenuser]

Kent.That was my thought as well ... but the problem there is that when things became a problem, he'd disappear, and couldn't be found like the current SecDef ... whatshisname.

Bruce Wayne would make a much bettter SecDef. Its not about being an Army of One like Clark would insist, but about making a smarter, better equipped army. Something to make the Russian sit up an say "Why do they get al the cool toys".

[Murphy1d]

That was my thought as well ... but the problem there is that when things became a problem, he'd disappear, and couldn't be found like the current SecDef ... whatshisname.

Bruce Wayne would make a much bettter SecDef. Its not about being an Army of One like Clark would insist, but about making a smarter, better equipped army. Something to make the Russian sit up an say "Why do they get al the cool toys".

Who names their kid Clark nowadays?

Me, I'd prefer Nick Fury as SecDef.

[Quix]

The SecDef will clearly be Cap.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Cap_america_v4.jpg

[tokenuser]

The SecDef will clearly be Cap.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Cap_america_v4.jpgBut isn't he older than even McCain? ... and which Cap are we talking about? Do you really want a SecDef who hides behind a mask, and has lived under different names?

[Quix]

Clearly Steve Rogers would be the only option. He's older than McCain, but it's not the years that matter, but the mileage. As for the mask, sure. The Army has everything about him on file anyway. :p

[Murphy1d]

Clearly Steve Rogers would be the only option. He's older than McCain, but it's not the years that matter, but the mileage. As for the mask, sure. The Army has everything about him on file anyway. :p

I don't have the heart to tell him....

[skyz]

Do you really want a SecDef who hides behind a mask, and has lived under different names?

no someone like that should be in the CIA :D

[Quix]

I don't have the heart to tell him....

His death is just another added benefit. An undead SecDef would have a single minded focus on acquiring and consuming the brains of America's enemies.

[Murphy1d]

His death is just another added benefit...
That made me laugh.

[Quix]

Thanks. :D

[straylightrise]

Brraainnssss

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

The photo below captures a disturbing trend that is beginning to affect wildlife in the US...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/bear.jpg

Animals that were formerly self-sufficient are now showing signs of belonging to the Democratic Party... as they have apparently learned to just sit and wait for the government to step in and provide for their care and sustenance.

[Quix]

Yeah, whatever happened to the days when a bear with enough ambition was able to pull himself up by his bootstraps?

http://www.jellystonemammothcave.com/images/yogi_art_pool/group08c.jpg

[tokenuser]

Animals that were formerly self-sufficient are now showing signs of belonging to the Democratic Party... as they have apparently learned to just sit and wait for the government to step in and provide for their care and sustenance.You miss the fact that the bear was sitting at what was once a GOP picnic. That contented grin on his face is because half the attendees shot each other while trying to shoot him, that he likes white meat, and he didn't have to listen to more excuses about Bush.

[Quix]

What does everyone think of the fact that a GOP Senator called Obama "uppity?" (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/westmoreland-calls-obama-uppity-2008-09-04.html)

[skyz]

What does everyone think of the fact that a GOP Senator called Obama "uppity?" (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/westmoreland-calls-obama-uppity-2008-09-04.html)

i think she meant yuppity

mr and ms obama are indeed classic yuppies

young urban upwardly mobile professionals

drop the search for hidden racist meanings

it doesn't serve obama

it makes it appear as if the only thing he has going for him is he is half black

even i give him more credit then that

[Quix]

Hidden? It's a fairly blatant example of racist terminology.

As for the point about his candidacy, I don't know how you got that out of what I said. A Republican Congressman using racist terms says nothing about Obama or his candidacy.

[skyz]

Hidden? It's a fairly blatant example of racist terminology.



in your opinion

and if you want it to be

which it seems you do

[Quix]

in your opinion

and if you want it to be

which it seems you do

I'm just calling the statement what it is. I don't like that a Congressman thinks using racially-tinged language is acceptable, but I'm not going to hide from what it is.

[straylightrise]

Joe Biden called Obama 'clean'

for those not from the 50s that's a race-charged term.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

Joe Biden called Obama 'clean'

for those not from the 50s that's a race-charged term.
He also said you can't go to a dunkin donuts without an indian accent.

[skyz]

I don't like that a Congressman thinks using racially-tinged language is acceptable, but I'm not going to hide from what it is.

Your sentence doesn't make sense.

but at the beginning of a phrase indicates disagreement with the earlier statement:

I don't like that a Congressman thinks using racially-tinged language is acceptable, and I'm not going to hide from what it is.

It is also incorrect in that you assume that you know what the congressman thinks, which is impossible.

What it appears you, if your intention is accuracy, want to say is:

I don't like that it appears that a congressman thinks using racially -tinged language is acceptable, and i am not going to hide from what it appears to be.

:D

[skyz]

Joe Biden called Obama 'clean'

for those not from the 50s that's a race-charged term.

i'm not from the 50s

i thought it meant he had no negative baggage

or he had no criminal record

or he carried no concealed weapons

*my point here is that there is racism if you see it if you wish to see it or not if you don't see it or don't wish to see it*

and while i'm commenting are you (generic you) as assiduous in your seeking and vilifying genderism as racism ?

or is racism 'evil' but genderism 'ok'

or racism is serious but genderism good for a giggle or a non issue

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

Just read a great article on Obama's tax plan. It says some things I've been saying too:

"You have to give him credit; the Obama tax plan has a lot of appeal to the average voter. The sales pitch, repeatedly endlessly, is that under Obama 95% of Americans would see their taxes go down.

Of course, it’s not as simple as the Democratic candidate would like you to believe. Both the nature of the tax “cuts” Obama puts in place and the tax increases he is trying to sell could have serious impacts on future economic growth. Not to mention the ability of the American economy to get back on track building the number of jobs and growing wealth in this country.

John McCain’s tax plan is far from perfect, but at its core is reducing taxes on job creation and kick-starting the economy. The idea behind the plan is that a good job with a strong and growing business is a far better way to drive Americans’ incomes up than to distribute short-term government handouts, as the Obama plan does.

What is Obama offering? A witch’s brew of tax credits that are aimed at various groups rather than lower taxes for everybody. Obama pays for these tax cuts by increasing the capital gains tax, keeping America’s 2nd highest in the world corporate taxes, and whacking upper-income earners with dramatically higher taxes. All things aimed squarely at reducing economic growth.

Tax credits for some and raising taxes on the wealthy are standard fare for Democrats. Call it Robin Hood economics, which is based on the idea that the idea of wealth in America is fixed and the role of government is to make sure that it gets into the right hands.

Such a plan would make sense if the economy were built on stealing from the poor and giving to the rich; then Obama would be the Robin Hood figure who was simply setting things right by reversing the transaction.

But modern economies build their wealth through investment and job creation, and Obama’s tax plan is aimed squarely at reducing investment and punishing wealth creation. Obama’s tax increases to pay for his new programs amount to billions of dollars on investments.

Not to mention that millions of Americans are counting on their investments to help fund their retirement plans in the coming years, and Obama’s plan takes a bite out of their future wealth.

That’s a bad bet for Americans and may well be a bad bet for the Obama campaign. His witches’ brew of tax increases for some and tax credits for others add up to a substantial increase in taxes overall. Those “middle class” tax cuts might be paid for with fewer jobs for Americans.

That’s a pretty high price to pay for a shot at a few tax credits."

If he wins, we all lose. Full Article (http://townhall.com/columnists/DavidStrom/2008/09/04/robin_hood_economics?page=2).

[kowgod]

I just donated to Barack Obama. It made me feel good.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

The you should keep feeling good throughout his entire Presidency with his tax plan. I donated to McCain by buying a Obama Air Tire Gauge. It makes me feel good to know I'm helping out with the gas crisis.

[esophagus]

The you should keep feeling good throughout his entire Presidency with his tax plan. I donated to McCain by buying a Obama Air Tire Gauge. It makes me feel good to know I'm helping out with the gas crisis.You ARE helping out with the gas crisis, no matter how much or little. Buying into Obama's plan to spite Obama's plan is incredibly backwards and silly.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

You ARE helping out with the gas crisis, no matter how much or little. Buying into Obama's plan to spite Obama's plan is incredibly backwards and silly.No, I totally agree with you, if we all did it, we wouldn't need any oil. It's awesome. Come on guys, buy your air gauges! I wonder if I can find one to fit my house... hmm...

[esophagus]

No, I totally agree with you, if we all did it, we wouldn't need any oil. It's awesome. Come on guys, buy your air gauges! I wonder if I can find one to fit my house... hmm...Ignoring the "no matter how much or little" part of my post to make a bad joke doesn't make you correct.

[esophagus]

The Uppity Negro Network (http://uppitynegronetwork.wordpress.com/):The Place to Embrace Your Inner Uppity Negro.

Here you can find such articles as "Damn Right! The Obama’s Are Uppity Negroes", and "UNN Breaking News: The Search for Palin’s Baby Daddy Continues"

[straylightrise]

ugh that site does nothing but continue to make this race....about race (pun not intended) I'm sick of all the race stuff and it sickens me when Republicans and Democrats feel the need to bring it up. Obama didn't win the Democratic nomination solely because he was black. He represents a good majority of the ideas that the party believes.

[Secret Steve Crumbles]

Ignoring the "no matter how much or little" part of my post to make a bad joke doesn't make you correct.How little? What are you talking about. His air tire gauge isn't a little solution my friend. It is the solution.

Obama: "We could save all the oil they're talking about getting from drilling if everyone was just inflating their tires, and getting regular tune-ups....[we] could save just as much!"

HAhahahahah, what a joke. Change! your tire pressure.

[phatlip12]

I donated to McCain by buying a Obama Air Tire Gauge.

You're one of THOSE people?

You do know tire pressure does help you improve your gas mileage right? Obama mentioned this and the McCain camp fabricated and entire story saying it was his energy plan.

If thats the argument from the opposing side I gota admit- I'm not worried. I guess the McCain camp gets off on tearing apart a persons words and taking everything literally 100%.

[xibalba]

There been mention of the Dems throwing away all those flags and the getting them out of the trash Reps handing them out making sure the persons vow not to throw them away and take care of them?

I am too lazy to look through all the post in the forum. :D

[kowgod]

There been mention of the Dems throwing away all those flags and the getting them out of the trash Reps handing them out making sure the persons vow not to throw them away and take care of them?

I am too lazy to look through all the post in the forum. :D

??????????????????????????????????????????????

[kowgod]

The photo below captures a disturbing trend that is beginning to affect wildlife in the US...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/bear.jpg

Animals that were formerly self-sufficient are now showing signs of belonging to the Democratic Party... as they have apparently learned to just sit and wait for the government to step in and provide for their care and sustenance.

Actually, in Yellowstone as an example, the government (Parks Service) way of dealing with bears who have become accustomed to getting food from humans is to... kill them.

[xibalba]

http://electjeff.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/democrats-throw-away-american-flags/

[esophagus]

So far the closest things to a real news source I've found that covered this is Fox News. From what I read, the Democrats have said they were sitting and waiting to be recycled or reused or something when they were found and taken so McCain could pull his stunt.

To be honest I would be more upset at the wastefulness of the whole thing than about the flag itself.

And no, Crumbles, I'm not denying that the Democrats do things wrong. They very well may have in this instance. I am just pointing out the side of the story that can't be found in the comments that talk about how people even framed their ticket stubs to Passion of the Christ, or how Obama probably wants to replace our flag with his own Muslim symbol.

It just seems unlikely to me that a presidential candidate would over look how offensive people might find that.

[masherscf]

This sorta ranks up there with random stories of Republican get-out-the vote groups canvassing Democratic neighborhoods in Ohio and throwing out all the forms that registered Democratic.

[kowgod]

http://electjeff.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/democrats-throw-away-american-flags/

That link cites the Denver Post without providing any link.

Here is what I found published in the Denver Post:

http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_10398830?source=commented-news


"Stories circulating about flags at the Democratic National Convention are false. We distributed more than 125,000 American made flags at the Convention - the flags removed from Invesco field were intended for other events and taken without permission. It's disappointing that someone would take American flags without authorization and then falsely describe how they were being used. We have the utmost respect for the American flag, and it's sad to see them being used for a cheap political stunt."

[esophagus]

Who called it? I did. :cool:

[xibalba]

I heard about it on the news earlier they were saying they were pulled out of dumpsters. Of course it is a stupid stunt.

Thats where they will end up anyways. I doubt many of those people they handed them out to will keep them.

[phatlip12]

I heard about it on the news earlier they were saying they were pulled out of dumpsters. Of course it is a stupid stunt.

Thats where they will end up anyways. I doubt many of those people they handed them out to will keep them.

That or sent back to China where they were made. ;)

[kowgod]

That or sent back to China where they were made. ;)

It says in the article that they were American made flags.

[phatlip12]

It says in the article that they were American made flags.

Well thats amazing! I read the article Dan posted which didn't mention it.

[esophagus]

Surprise! Republicans don't add a redeeming factor to a publicity stunt against the Democrats.

Not that a Democrat publicity stunt would give the Republicans a redeeming factor.

[xibalba]

thats the only link i could fine that mentioned it all the stories i saw linked back to that page. of course i could have looked at the fair and balanced news channels site(Fox). haha