View Full Version : X-Men: What the hell happened?
kevsname72
08-23-2008, 02:36 AM
I Remember a year ago when i was running to the store every week to see what was going to happen in each x-book. I hadn't been that excited for the x-men like that in a long time.
Then Messiah Complex ended.
Now we have twice the x-books and half the quality. Maybe it's just me but i find myself rolling my eyes at least once during each one. , i love the x-men. they brought me into comics, and as long as they are around i will always read comics but lately i am just fucking irratated. What would you guys like to see in the future from the x-men?
Am i alone here?
cenquist
08-23-2008, 03:23 AM
I would really like to see Prof X get shot...then Cyke/Emma have to make a deal with the devil to keep him alive. But the deal is, changing time and Emma/Cyke never meet because Jean never died. Then Beast goes back to normal, we never found out Logans past, 2nd mutations vanish. And they cancel all X books but one and put them out weekly!
aerodynamics
08-23-2008, 03:56 AM
Oh, come on! The new X-Mens is great, man!
Environmentalism! Sex! Environmentalism! Red Bull (tm)! Environmentalism! Shopping!
I really don't see what you're complaining about.
horatio616
08-23-2008, 04:18 AM
I don't think this new incarnation of the X-Men is any worse than anything that's been done in the last 10 years or more, except Morrison's and Whedon's runs. This might actually their best revamp in awhile. Messiah Complex was a waste of time. Anticlimactic.
valoharth
08-23-2008, 04:50 AM
I don't think this new incarnation of the X-Men is any worse than anything that's been done in the last 10 years or more, except Morrison's and Whedon's runs. This might actually their best revamp in awhile. Messiah Complex was a waste of time. Anticlimactic.
*Slow Clap*
optimus187prime
08-23-2008, 01:37 PM
Anticlimactic.I can agree with that but messiah complex was fun for me. True we didnt get the answers we wanted in the end.
johnvferrigno
08-23-2008, 03:57 PM
The problem with the X-Men is that it was left in the hands of one man for far too long. Claremont ran out of ideas halfway through his 90 year run on the title, but it was still selling like crazy, so they let him just keep on rehashing his same shit over and over again. Slowly, X-Men became so convoluted because of Claremonts tendancy to throw 800 things at the wall and then just use 4 or 5 of them, forgetting about all the other ones, that nobody was able to make heads or tails of it. Plus, he has this thing where he needs to change characters just for the sake of changing them. "I can't think of anything interesting to do with th Beast, so I'll just make him a cat!" "Let me give everybody new powers, and never explainw hy!" "Oh, remember how Sage was trying to kill you for 75 years? She's really a secret double agent, who was living in the X-Mansion since day one. You never saw her because that place is HUGE!"
Over time, the X-Men just kind of became a parody of itself. The very things that used to make this book so damn awesome in the 70s and 80s are the same things that are making it terrible now. It looked like there was a glimmer of hope with Joss Whedon, because his run was terrific (I thought, anyway), but now that has all been swept under the rug.
Joss Whedon showed us how to make the X-men work in the modern age of comics: Put them back in costumes, have them act like an actual super-hero team, and interact with the rest of the marvel universe. Use characters with powers that make sense, and have them all have distinctive personalities. And Wolverine is a supporting character in the book. It's an ensemble piece, not Wolverine and the X-Men.
Treat them as real people, with real emotions and personalities. They are super-heroes, first and foremost, who just have really shitty luck. Kind of like the team version of Spider-Man. They just don't catch a break, but they win in the end through guts and determination.
And now I'm rambling and forgot my point. But I loved the X-Men when I was younger. Now, I can't stand them. EVery so often I pick up some issues, to se what I'm missing, and the answer is always "not much."
At least i have X-Factor to get my mutant fix.
I'm more excited about X-Men than I have been in years. I'm loving the Brubaker/Fraction pairing, generally enjoying X-Factor, surprisingly liking X-Men Legacy and digging Astonishing even though it feel kind of pointless so far.
There are no other X-Books.
None.
Also pretty sure it was Morrison who started all that second mutation stuff, not Claremont
oh_caroline
08-23-2008, 05:13 PM
I thought Messiah Complex was fun while I was reading it but it just kind of ended, and for several months there was no coherent followup. It would be like if you got to the end of "Fellowship of the Ring" and said, "That was awesome, I can't wait for the sequel" -- and Tolkien looked at you and said, "What sequel?"
But I'm getting interested in the books again as it seems they are finally following stuff up -- with the X:Factor Layla special, and the latest Cable issue. I've enjoyed Legacy from the start, and now that Xavier is going back to meet Cyclops, that should tie back in a bit. Fraction/Bru have definitely seeded some interesting things in Uncanny, and I love Ellis' Astonishing to pieces.
Also, lest we forget, great stories in 'Xmen First Class' month in, month out. It's an exciting time to be a fan, in my opinion.
optimus187prime
08-23-2008, 05:21 PM
At least i have X-Factor to get my mutant fix.
I just dropped that book.
I love all the 'First Class' books, and I feel like I am interested in the X men more now then I was a few years ago.
brandeezy
08-23-2008, 06:28 PM
Claremont is the one who created the whole concept of secondary mutations.
The X-Men work best when they don't pretend to be a superhero team- they really don't work going up against Kang or even Doom. They work as a school trying to teach mutants how to use their powers properly and as protectors of mutants from the hatred of humans and the manipulation of evil mutants.
bgavino
08-23-2008, 06:29 PM
Plus, he has this thing where he needs to change characters just for the sake of changing them. "I can't think of anything interesting to do with th Beast, so I'll just make him a cat!" "Let me give everybody new powers, and never explainw hy!"
I am into the X-Men now. I think Brubaker and Fraction are doing a fine job. Is it the best the X-men has ever been? No not at all we have Morrisons and Whedons run for that. Also the whole beast as a cat thing along with the new powers (secondary mutations) was not Claremont I think that stuff was Morrisons idea and it was explained as Secondary mutations.
Bryan
I'm fairly certain at least Beast and Emma (pretty much the only notable secondary mutations) were during Morrison's run.
Wikipedia confirms it!
Actually looks most of the secondary mutations happened under Morrison and Austen's respective runs, Claremont didn't do much with it at all
kevsname72
08-23-2008, 07:19 PM
Beast became cat beast in claremonts x-treme x-men. Afterward he was taken out of that team and thrown into morrisons run. it may have been morrisons idea, but claremont wrote the actual event.
Emma was morrison.
I actually have really loved brubaker's uncanny up until issue 500. i dont know if its lands art, or fraction. ( i doubt it's fraction, considering i love his iron man) but the writing has just seemed forced. agian, i could just be the art because ive never read anything so distracting.
And no ones brought up the fact that new x-men( a book that had just started to get really good.) Got pushed aside for young x-men which is just fucking ridiculus.
My memory is that Beast became a cat in the first issue of Morrison's run, but was injured in X-Treme.
I believe in chronology X-Treme may happen sooner but New X-Men was actually released earlier and secondary mutations were absolutely Morrison's idea.
georgexjr
08-23-2008, 07:42 PM
my thoughts.
x-men: legacy- its has become xaviers book. for how long? i dont know but so far its pretty good if you can deal with all the reconning.
uncanny-500 was too much for one issue. 501 didn't even touch magneto or the high evolutionary. why the fuck was magneto attacking and why didn't they touch on the celestial in the middle of san fran in issue 501. fuck.
astonishing x-men-note to joe quesada, quit giving warren ellis work. he doesn't belong in super hero books. the art 50%brillant and 50% horse shit. oh...and fuck storm.
young x-men-why.(period because its rehtorical)
cable- nothing of any validity will ever happen in this book.
x-force-so far so good. i like it.
x-factor-was, for a time, probaly the best book i was reading. the arcade story line was needless and now theres tie ins. i dropped it but ill prolly continue to still get it in hc
i gotta agree with kevin for a time every x-week was awesome. i miss rachel.
The Celestial in the middle of Golden Gate park happened in Neil Gaiman's Eternals mini. It has literally nothing to do with the X-Men.
Also I'm definitely a follower of the idea that the baby in Cable/MC is Jean, so there might be something interesting happening in there one day.
kevsname72
08-23-2008, 08:07 PM
I don't think that the baby revel will even be in cable.
optimus187prime
08-23-2008, 08:38 PM
I don't think that the baby revel will even be in cable.
I agree. They wouldnt waste that on a book that isnt the core of the Xmen.
Also agreed, but the backstory about it will probably happen in Cable and he'll come back just before or just after the baby regains her memories (once she's probably well into her teens or older)
optimus187prime
08-23-2008, 08:55 PM
Also agreed, but the backstory about it will probably happen in Cable and he'll come back just before or just after the baby regains her memories (once she's probably well into her teens or older)
They better not make us wait forever for that reveal. It will lose all of its 'umph', it will be like "Hey you remember that thingie messiah whatever, where Cable was a pediophile or something", "No", "well the ending is coming out soon".
Well since they're talking about it in Uncanny to keep our minds fresh I think it'll be alright.
oh_caroline
08-23-2008, 09:06 PM
They better not make us wait forever for that reveal. It will lose all of its 'umph', it will be like "Hey you remember that thingie messiah whatever, where Cable was a pediophile or something", "No", "well the ending is coming out soon".
Cable is not a pedophile!!
Cable occasionally goes on dates with his mom.
Totally different kink.
optimus187prime
08-23-2008, 09:21 PM
Cable is not a pedophile!!
Cable occasionally goes on dates with his mom.
Totally different kink.
Gotcha, gotta get my sexually deviant groups straightened out.
optimus187prime
08-24-2008, 12:03 AM
New reason to get excited about the future of the X Men? Im intrigued.
http://i.newsarama.com/images/2009_teaser-02.jpg
zombox
08-24-2008, 12:53 AM
I really wish they'd just leave her dead. I'm sick of the same story being retold endlessly in the X-Men.
The problem with the X-men is that no one has figured out what to do in the post-Claremont era, including Claremont. No one seems to have new stories to tell. Marvel editorial, I am assuming (because surely the two dozen of so writers they've had in the last 15 years can't all be that sucky) want to maintain status quo as much as possible which starts to stink like stagnation. Morrison was allowed to be weird and go wild only because he is so big in comics right now, but the whole time they knew that they were going to undo 99% of his story as soon as he was gone (and they did). I don't have all the answers, but I know that the X-Men needs to feel new and edgy again - which was what really made it the spotlight title. I'm also a little tired of the book moralizing at me. A lot of writers, Brubaker included, seem to think that the X-Men is where you go to tell morality stories... it is tedious.
Brubaker and Fraction are off to an okay start, but not mind-blowing. This considering I like Brubaker's Cap and love Fractions Thor mini, so I already like both writers. Astonishing X-Men is absolutely, 100% suck and fail, it got dropped immediately after issue 2. Bad art. Bad writing. Just bad. Legacy holds no interest for me. Two characters in the X-men mythos I cannot abide and wish would go away forever: Jean Grey and Xavier. Pretty much tells you what I think of Legacy.
New reason to get excited about the future of the X Men? Im intrigued.
http://i.newsarama.com/images/2009_teaser-02.jpg
oh_caroline
08-24-2008, 03:20 AM
I really wish they'd just leave her dead. I'm sick of the same story being retold endlessly in the X-Men.
Just bad. Legacy holds no interest for me. Two characters in the X-men mythos I cannot abide and wish would go away forever: Jean Grey and Xavier. Pretty much tells you what I think of Legacy.
I think you're overreacting to publicity art that I suspect is for an AU series that has nothing to do with resurrecting Jean.
She's also barely been in Legacy so I don't know what she has to do with that book.
Otherwise, you're expressing opinions that are too vague to be refutable.
georgexjr
08-24-2008, 03:57 AM
New reason to get excited about the future of the X Men? Im intrigued.
http://i.newsarama.com/images/2009_teaser-02.jpg
is that real?!
georgexjr
08-24-2008, 03:58 AM
The Celestial in the middle of Golden Gate park happened in Neil Gaiman's Eternals mini. It has literally nothing to do with the X-Men.
Also I'm definitely a follower of the idea that the baby in Cable/MC is Jean, so there might be something interesting happening in there one day.
wasn't the high evolutionary trying to wake up the celestial in uncanny 5hundo?
I'm sure they'll come back to the high evolutionary sooner than later.
I've got complete confidence in Fraction and Brubaker
oh_caroline
08-24-2008, 04:48 AM
I'm sure they'll come back to the high evolutionary sooner than later.
I've got complete confidence in Fraction and Brubaker
Fraction said, at a panel at the Toronto con, to think about 'Uncanny' like a TV show, and I like that comparison. It's a broad canvas for an ensemble drama with a lot of different storylines that could be developed over time. I like what they're seeding now; I'm curious to see how long before it starts to pay off.
I read that too, I'm hoping my buddy who's there got a recording of that as well. He definitely got a recording of the DC Nation panel.
optimus187prime
08-24-2008, 02:29 PM
is that real?!
Yeah. I got it off of Newsarama.
Yeah there's (at least) 2 other pictures, one that looks like it might be Jean in the same style and one looking like Cyclops.
optimus187prime
08-24-2008, 02:34 PM
Yeah there's (at least) 2 other pictures, one that looks like it might be Jean in the same style and one looking like Cyclops.
Except they both have guns which is out of character.
labor_days
08-24-2008, 03:35 PM
"X-men comics".
Bbwwhaha~!
oh_caroline
08-24-2008, 03:38 PM
Yeah there's (at least) 2 other pictures, one that looks like it might be Jean in the same style and one looking like Cyclops.
I think the female figure is Rogue (streak in the hair).
I'm also pretty sure whatever they're advertising is an AU and not a main-continuity X-story, but we'll see.
optimus187prime
08-24-2008, 03:41 PM
I think the female figure is Rogue (streak in the hair).
I'm also pretty sure whatever they're advertising is an AU and not a main-continuity X-story, but we'll see.
I have read rumors that this is for a "What if" story. That seems unusual for Marvel though. They dont usually tease those stories this much.
I think the female figure is Rogue (streak in the hair).
I'm also pretty sure whatever they're advertising is an AU and not a main-continuity X-story, but we'll see.
I only went with Jean because of the green eyes, but yeah if the pic posted here is Gambit then Rogue makes sense.
And yeah I think it's probably going to be an AU story too, one that has me stoked
optimus187prime
08-24-2008, 04:40 PM
I only went with Jean because of the green eyes, but yeah if the pic posted here is Gambit then Rogue makes sense.
And yeah I think it's probably going to be an AU story too, one that has me stoked
I would prefer a really unique AU story as well. There is much baggage in the MU.
Come to think of it an entire Noir Marvel-verse would kick ASS if it had some good writers behind it.
optimus187prime
08-24-2008, 04:49 PM
Come to think of it an entire Noir Marvel-verse would kick ASS if it had some good writers behind it.
Agreed.
racemccloud
08-25-2008, 01:50 PM
You know, I thought that image was of Arcade at first. Gambit probably makes more sense.
Intriguing. Good teasers don't always translate into worthwhile product... but those are pretty good teasers.
sonic-attack
08-25-2008, 04:33 PM
Just one thing for you guys to consider
I used to buy all the x-men titles as they were fantastic I have now dropped all of them as they have all gone to pot one by one.
Why stick around paying money for books that dont truly satisfy you?
There are so many good titles out that deserve to be read.
Blind loyalty is what Marvel and DC rely on...how many x-men books sell every month and how many people complain about them.
take a tip...stop buying them, its the only way Marvel will get the message and shake things up a bit and get back to the x-men we all love.
oh_caroline
08-25-2008, 05:29 PM
Just one thing for you guys to consider
I used to buy all the x-men titles as they were fantastic I have now dropped all of them as they have all gone to pot one by one.
Why stick around paying money for books that dont truly satisfy you?
There are so many good titles out that deserve to be read.
Blind loyalty is what Marvel and DC rely on...how many x-men books sell every month and how many people complain about them.
take a tip...stop buying them, its the only way Marvel will get the message and shake things up a bit and get back to the x-men we all love.
But a lot of us are saying that we DO like these books.
take a tip...stop buying them, its the only way Marvel will get the message and shake things up a bit and get back to the x-men we all love.
I'm not sure how you would shake things up and also go back to the same old same old.
The X-Men (aside from Astonishing) has been pretty lame every since Morrison left.
I love that Brubaker and Fraction are trying something new with it, I'm more excited about Uncanny than I have been... pretty much ever.
Sure stuff like Cable, YXM and X-Force sucking to one degree or another but Uncanny and XML are awesome
poltah
08-25-2008, 05:54 PM
Only X-men worth reading in my opinion is Whedon's Astonishing X-men.
My big problem with the x-men right now is the fact that people still hate mutants. I mean, I KNOW that's the thing. But jesus christ, enough already.
If you're a mutant, what's stopping you from saying "Well, I got my powers from an ancient crystal I found in the jungle" and then people would be like "oh cool, as long as you weren't BORN with your powers".
oh_caroline
08-25-2008, 06:05 PM
Only X-men worth reading in my opinion is Whedon's Astonishing X-men.
My big problem with the x-men right now is the fact that people still hate mutants. I mean, I KNOW that's the thing. But jesus christ, enough already.
If you're a mutant, what's stopping you from saying "Well, I got my powers from an ancient crystal I found in the jungle" and then people would be like "oh cool, as long as you weren't BORN with your powers".
If you're black and have light skin, what's to stop you from telling people you're white? If you're Jewish, what's to stop you from claiming you aren't? I don't mean to make inflammatory comparisons, but those are valid within the ethics of the Marvel universe.
And the San Francisco storyline DOES deal with the fact that not everybody hates mutants (a point that I agree is long overdue).
optimus187prime
08-25-2008, 08:44 PM
If you're black and have light skin, what's to stop you from telling people you're white? If you're Jewish, what's to stop you from claiming you aren't? I don't mean to make inflammatory comparisons, but those are valid within the ethics of the Marvel universe.
And the San Francisco storyline DOES deal with the fact that not everybody hates mutants (a point that I agree is long overdue).
I like that argument Caroline. It makes sense that the mutants would be a proud people (ie Magneto).
oh_caroline
08-25-2008, 09:01 PM
I like that argument Caroline. It makes sense that the mutants would be a proud people (ie Magneto).
I don't mean to dismiss the original point, which is that it doesn't necessarily make sense that mutants are treated so much worse than other people with powers. Though I think various writers have done a decent job of exploring the notion that people would be more freaked out by the idea of people being *born* different.
Fraction said, at a panel at the Toronto con, to think about 'Uncanny' like a TV show, and I like that comparison. It's a broad canvas for an ensemble drama with a lot of different storylines that could be developed over time. I like what they're seeding now; I'm curious to see how long before it starts to pay off.
Were you at the Con Caroline? I'm from Toronto!
Also what's an AU?
optimus187prime
08-25-2008, 10:32 PM
Also what's an AU?
Alternate Universe.
Alternate Universe.
THank you!
racemccloud
08-25-2008, 11:09 PM
I don't mean to dismiss the original point, which is that it doesn't necessarily make sense that mutants are treated so much worse than other people with powers. Though I think various writers have done a decent job of exploring the notion that people would be more freaked out by the idea of people being *born* different.
Yeah, the point is that mutants should HAVE to pretend to be normal. The metaphor do real-life discrimination is, of course, clumsily obvious and, sadly, still very appropriate.
optimus187prime
08-25-2008, 11:40 PM
Any opinions of this book?
X-Men Legacy Prem Hc Vol 01 Divided He Stands (http://ifanboy.com/comics/marvel_comics/x-men_legacy_prem_hc_vol_01_divided_he_stands)
I thought XML started slow so a collection of the first issues wouldn't be tempting to me
oh_caroline
08-26-2008, 12:37 AM
Any opinions of this book?
X-Men Legacy Prem Hc Vol 01 Divided He Stands (http://ifanboy.com/comics/marvel_comics/x-men_legacy_prem_hc_vol_01_divided_he_stands)
I like Legacy a lot. Particularly if Xavier, or the Xavier-Magneto relationship, interests you, it would be worth checking. It might not be worth the hardcover, as there are only five issues and the art is a little shaky at times. The issue coming out this week is supposed to involve Xavier going back to talk to Cyclops, and you could probably pick that one up as a jumping on point, and a pretty good indication of whether you would like the series.
optimus187prime
08-26-2008, 12:50 AM
I like Legacy a lot. Particularly if Xavier, or the Xavier-Magneto relationship, interests you, it would be worth checking. It might not be worth the hardcover, as there are only five issues and the art is a little shaky at times. The issue coming out this week is supposed to involve Xavier going back to talk to Cyclops, and you could probably pick that one up as a jumping on point, and a pretty good indication of whether you would like the series.
Thanks, I read Messiah Complex, liked it and didnt want to miss some of the peripheral matter leading to its conclusion.