New Comics Discussion for 08/27/2008

[oh_caroline]

Good lord, awesome discussion this week.


Re: Chabon, Ellis, et al.

I believe we've had this discussion about Ellis before. I even wanna say it was Humphrey who pointed out that Ellis doesn't "hate" super-heroes the way Ennis does. He hates the slavish devotion to them and the stranglehold they have on the industry.

With that in mind, I believe that's part of the reason he DOES write good super-hero comics.

.

Dave, that's exactly how I feel about Ellis. And yes, I absolutely think that what's good about his superhero work, when it's good, grows out of the fact that he's not entirely at ease with the genre or the universe.

Good job pointing out, as well, everything he's done for comics as far as building community and encouraging other creators. I look at what I see Ellis having done for the medium and the genre, not just what he has said about it. Actions > words. And the words are interesting, too.

[dave-accampo]

ON the comics front, the lower tier of my books have been fairly entertaining:

- Iron Fist is still pretty good, I gotta say. The new writer is doing a decent job of following on from Bru and Fraction. Not crazy about the art, but I'm calling it a 3 star book for me.

- I read Superman, but I didn't read the previous issue because I missed it and can't find it. Hmmm, it's not bad. But it's not really doing it for me either. It definitely pales next to Johns' Action. I"m gonna give the teams through the New Krypton story, I think. Give 'em a chance to get going. Then I'm out of everything from Action if it doesn't thrill me.

- Kick-Ass was OK. It's not really moving forward enough for me. I probably would have compressed the last two issues. I still like the concept, but (and maybe it's Paper's fault) he's not really executing on the concept as satisfactorily as I'd have hoped.

- Wolverine was fun, though. It's just an enjoyable arc and its maintaining nicely. I dug it.

- JSA is moving a bit too slowly. I just don't have a grasp on the point of everything. I don't know why, but somehow we all new that the lance corporal dude was gonna become Magog. So that wasn't really thrilling. This issue spends a lot of time from Hawkman's POV, with HAwkman being angry. And I know it's building up to a schism in the JSA, but... I dunno, this is starting to fall a bit flat for me. The bit where Dr. Midnite can't work effectively because he has eyes now is just so reminiscent of SOMETHING else I've read/seen, but I can't put my finger on it. I dunno. I think I still give it three stars, but it's vaguely disappointing me.

- X-men Legacy remains a surprisingly fun serial about Professor X. I really have no idea where Carey's going with this book, but... that's kind of a GOOD thing.

[dave-accampo]

But if you're interested in trying something out with minimal backstory, there are places where you can start at the beginning. Watch the "Iron Man" movie. Read the first trade of Ultimate Spider-Man or Ultimate Fantastic Four; those are fairly contemporary books with literally no backstory, because the beginning of the Ultimate line launched the Ultimate Universe. Read anything put out by DC called "Year One."That's an excellent recommendation. I think you could also try out things like Busiek's Astro City, which has a real love for super-heroes without having the deep continuity that Marvel/DC have built up. Or Kirkman's Invincible, right? Don't read that myself, but some folks really like it.

I even think stuff like Ex Machina and Ed Brubaker's Sleeper might have be good for super-heroes without really exactly being super-heroes. Or Ellis' The Authority.

Ooh, and speaking of Year One stories, Diggle/Jock's recent Green Arrow: Year One is a nice example of a ground floor Super-hero origin story.

[humphrey-lee]

Good lord, awesome discussion this week.

Re: Chabon, Ellis, et al.

I believe we've had this discussion about Ellis before. I even wanna say it was Humphrey who pointed out that Ellis doesn't "hate" super-heroes the way Ennis does. He hates the slavish devotion to them and the stranglehold they have on the industry.





Yeah, that would be me. Like I said as well, a part of me understands his perspective because it's mostly my own. Except, I do have an attachment to some of these characters, and while not exactly one to "geek" out, I will occasionally fall prey to the moments that writers expect you to when they play off their Iconoclasm for a "cheap" thrill. Except I don't fall for cheap, I fall for skill that leads up to that moment and uses it properly, not to disguise, in most cases, a lack of skill on the writer to tell a truly riveting story that uses that moment to emphasize it, not cover up their shortcomings. My problem with comics and, yeah, this would be me talking about those who read them, is that a lot of people will buy that stuff and buy it by the droves. A C-grade story that gives you an admittedly "nifty" Superman or Batman or Spider-Man moment will be eaten up almost all the time and the thing they talk about at the shop that day or next week by it's 60K or however many followers... and then Scalped will sit there barely hitting 5-digits in sales.

So Ellis and I have the same "disdain" I guess when it comes to the genre, except he won't "waste" his time unless something at least mildly innovative comes across his plate that he thinks people should stand up and take notice. I indulge myself in tons of superhero comics. Hell, they make up half of my 60+ pull list, I just don't bite on cheap thrills. Playing off reverence doesn't get me, the story around it does, which is why Captain America is in the top ten list of books I currently read, and why I just double dipped on the Bendis DD Omnibus having owned the issues, and Starman is one of the ten best series I've ever read, and so on.

I think the Ellis "Manifesto" that came out years ago when he was doing the CBR column said his and my stance best. Obviously it's a worthwhile genre, and we've seen what it can be done when it's at its best, but it's too dominant, and mostly by work that is really devoid of any quality and that gets by on just being what it is, and people eat it up.

He likened it to going to the bookstore and having the entire shelves being lined by Nurse Romance I think, and I liked the analogy for the point, but not the example. I always liked to use Sitcoms, and did so in a blog I wrote up a couple months back. What if TV was completely dominated by sitcoms? Sure, there's some great ones like your Arrested Developments and so on, and they can play many different types of stories and approaches in that genre, but most are really designed to generically appeal to the most common of denominator. And what if sitcoms were 90% of the TV industry, while shows like The Wire or the Shield or Rome either lavished in obscurity, just finding their inherent base audience to get by? Or what if they didn't even find that audience, because it was never promoted to let them know it was there? Or what if they never came to be, because since they weren't Sitcoms, some producer somewhere just figured it was doomed to failure and decided not to bother?

And there you go. If you never really "got" my feelings about comics books and the industry, that right there will probably help you the best. Fuck, now I kind of want to go do another blog. Instead, my download of the new Warhawk expansion just finished, so I think I'm gonna go do that instead. Giddyup.

Cheers...

[cammyknoxville]

Anyone else think Pax Romana #3 was a little text-heavy this week? I mean, I know the past two issues have been also, but I guess with such the delay, I was hoping there'd be a little bit more action.

[dave-accampo]

I generally have similar notions to your post, Humphrey, but I did want to point out one thing: I believe the example you cite here:

He likened it to going to the bookstore and having the entire shelves being lined by Nurse Romance I think, and I liked the analogy for the point, but not the example.

Is actually, (maybe ironically?) from Michael Chabon and not Warren Ellis.

Yep, here it is... it's the Editor's note at the beginning of McSweeney's Mammoth Treasury of Thrilling Tales.

[humphrey-lee]

I generally have similar notions to your post, Humphrey, but I did want to point out one thing: I believe the example you cite here:



Is actually, (maybe ironically?) from Michael Chabon and not Warren Ellis.

Yep, here it is... it's the Editor's note at the beginning of McSweeney's Mammoth Treasury of Thrilling Tales.

Is it? Hrms... He might have took it from Chabon then, because I just reread his article a year back or so and I swear that's the example he used. Either way, I stole it too so hah! No tagbacksies!

[conorkilpatrick]

I generally have similar notions to your post, Humphrey, but I did want to point out one thing: I believe the example you cite here:



Is actually, (maybe ironically?) from Michael Chabon and not Warren Ellis.

Yep, here it is... it's the Editor's note at the beginning of McSweeney's Mammoth Treasury of Thrilling Tales.

It's also something Warren Ellis has said for almost ten years - the nurse analogy. I don't know who said it first, though.

[dave-accampo]

It's also something Warren Ellis has said for almost ten years - the nurse analogy. I don't know who said it first, though. Yeah, I do remember Ellis saying something similar (didn't remember it was nurse romances). But I did remember Chabon. This little foreword at the beginning of the McSweeney's book says that he's been "boring friends with a rant for a a year or so," and then he goes on to "formulate' the thought for the first time. Could be that he was drawing on Ellis' example (the McSweeney's book is from 2002). Or it could be that Ellis took it from Chabon. Interesting.

But the point stands, regardless of who said it. And Humphrey's right -- it's a really good point.

[dave-accampo]

Shit, I think it IS from Ellis first and it was co-opted by Chabon.

From CBR, and posted in 2000:

ITEM FIVE
Fuck superheroes, frankly. The notion that these things dominate an entire genre is absurd. It's like every bookstore in the planet having ninety percent of its shelves filled by nurse novels. Imagine that. You want a new novel, but you have to wade through three hundred new books about romances in the wards before you can get at any other genre. A medium where the relationship of fiction about nurses outweighs mainstream literary fiction by a ratio of one hundred to one. Superhero comics are like bloody creeping fungus, and they smother everything else.



It's been the hip and trendy thing to do, recently, to say that superheroes are, you know, all right. And, if they're well done, I agree with you. There's room for any kind of good work, no matter what genre it's in.

But that doesn't excuse you from going out and burning out all the bad work at the fucking root with torches. It doesn't excuse all the nameless toss that DC and Marvel and Image and all the others slop out every month. If you want to read three hundred superhero comics a month then you are sick and you need medical help.

Rip from their steaming corpses the things that led superhero comics to dominate the medium - the mad energy, the astonishing visuals, the fetishism, whatever - and apply them to the telling of other stories in other genres. That's all THE MATRIX did, after all.


The McSweeney's book was published in 2002-3, and Chabon's foreword says he's been using the rant for about a year. Would seem to me that he must have read Ellis' piece and incorporated it into his own thoughts. Odd that he doesn't attribute it to Ellis, though.

[paper]

That is odd. It's a very specific analogy too.

[dave-accampo]

That is odd. It's a very specific analogy too.

Yeah, I double-checked it in Maps and Legends because a variation of the essay appears in that book ("Trickster in a Suit of Lights", I think). I thought he might have updated it if someone called him on the Ellis reference. But, nope, it's still in there.

[deadspace]

@Humphrey Lee

I totally agree with you. I don't read any of the superhero stuff (yet..?) and to get to my first 'pull' in the weekly comics list I have to scroll about half way down the page! And it can be a shocker to see how low the sales numbers are for quality books like DMZ. You've got a lot of the best non-superhero books around the 10,000 mark. And Proof is at 3000! wtf? If only it was called 'Secret Invasion: Proof' :p It's a shame one type of book can be so dominant when there are soooo many other kinds that are truly amazing.

Thinking about it, I have bought some superhero stuff cos War Heroes is kinda superhero-y isn't it? I loved #1. And Ex Machina. I think I'm attracted to that kind of thing more than the kind of books that are superhero(es) versus supervillain(s).

Also, when I was describing earlier the kind of stuff I like reading and I said dark/nihilistic/misanthropic books, a perfect example of this is the Watchmen but in particular Rorschach's character and his commentary throughout the book through his journal entries. His character was just perfection on a page for me. It's almost as though in one way he is emotionally retarded yet so perceptive at the same time. God I love that book. I loved the isolation, loneliness and helplessness of Doc Manhattan too. Those are easily 2 of the best characters I've ever seen in any kind of media.

Anyway, I'm more interested than ever in hearing your 10 favourite comics of all time because I think I might like similar stuff to you. I've been trying to find out stuff about Starman but I'm having trouble finding info on the publications. What's the first one called?

And sorry that I made this thread so off-topic! :o

[gobo]

Starman was in... Starman :)

The James Robinson version from the 90s

Here's the wiki for the relevant starman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starman_(Jack_Knight)

[dave-accampo]

Anyway, I'm more interested than ever in hearing your 10 favourite comics of all time... And sorry that I made this thread so off-topic! :o

Actually, sounds like a good topic for a new thread: Top Ten series of all time and Top Ten Graphic Novels of all time?

[gobo]

I'd go with "runs" and "minis" myself. I'm not sure I've even read 10 OGNs

[dave-accampo]

Here's the wiki for the relevant starman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starman_(Jack_Knight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starman_%28Jack_Knight))
You can also look in the dictionary under 'AWESOME.'

...Unless you're Paper. He uses some weird, foreign dictionary that does not allow for AWESOME and has words like "fraptapular" and "gonzaculous." Also, it defines cats as amphibious vehicles and dogs as flavorless custard. Clearly, it needs some work.

[gobo]

You can also look in the dictionary under 'AWESOME.'

...Unless you're Paper. He uses some weird, foreign dictionary that does not allow for AWESOME and has words like "fraptapular" and "gonzaculous." Also, it defines cats as amphibious vehicles and dogs as flavorless custard. Clearly, it needs some work.

A+, hilarious.

[dave-accampo]

I'd go with "runs" and "minis" myself. I'm not sure I've even read 10 OGNs Sure, yeah, I was thinking that minis become stand-alone graphic novels (eg, Watchmen), so that works for me.

[gobo]

I figured as much, I'm really just trying to head the semanticians off at the pass.

[six-gun]

Some thoughts on this week's comics.

I really enjoyed New Avengers, even though I thought the story was, once again, rather superfluous.

Mighty Avengers on the other hand, was rather bad aside from the idea that the Pym Skrull would be emotionally/psychologically unstable and full of doubt.

Northlanders had a great ending, but I neither buy the conceit of the main character nor enjoy the new artist.

JSA was maybe my least favorite issue of the entire series, Hawkman's characterization should be right up my alley, but it felt forced and unnatural. I'm also tired of them following Gog through the jungle.

DCU: Last Will and Testament was amazing. It gave me the Identity Crisis Meltzer and that's all I could really ask for. Would have been my pick, except that the fact that neither Brion or Slade died took away from what could have been an epic, Shakespearean ending.

Daredevil was everything I could have wanted from the Gotham Central Reunion. POW

Rogue's Revenge was brutal and awesome... but it was just a fight scene.

[paper]

Rogue's Revenge was brutal and awesome... but it was just a fight scene.

WHAT?!

Honestly that's like saying Daredevil was just a chat.

I can't believe people prefer Last Will and Testament to RR. Ridiculous.

[deadspace]

Starman was in... Starman :)

The James Robinson version from the 90s

Here's the wiki for the relevant starman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starman_(Jack_Knight)

Ah thank you! That has a list of the collections. When I looked at wiki I was on the Starman_(comics) page and it didn't have that publication list. Nice one, cheers!

Actually, sounds like a good topic for a new thread: Top Ten series of all time and Top Ten Graphic Novels of all time?

Go for it! :)

You can also look in the dictionary under 'AWESOME.'

...Unless you're Paper. He uses some weird, foreign dictionary that does not allow for AWESOME and has words like "fraptapular" and "gonzaculous." Also, it defines cats as amphibious vehicles and dogs as flavorless custard. Clearly, it needs some work.

Hahaha!

[paper]

Dave is so NOT gonzaculous. His reading interests are as bland as dog.

[humphrey-lee]

WHAT?!

Honestly that's like saying Daredevil was just a chat.

I can't believe people prefer Last Will and Testament to RR. Ridiculous.

Last Will was half what I was talking about the "cheap" moments. Obviously, the whole situation with GeoForce was well set up and ran nicely through the story, but the other have was, like you'd expect from that book, "Here's some soft side moments with the heroes!" that really, I know they were the point of the book, but it's all cheap heat, or at least that's how they were written to me. I think the main thing is, I still don't buy the "it's the end of the world as we know it!" setting, because quite frankly Morrison's horrible pacing on FC itself has never made me think for one moment thing's are as bad as they say. It's just been a big ball of Morrisonian ideas thrown at me. Sure, they're on the ropes, but I haven't soaked in a single bit of it all because they and all the FC mini's that aren't Johns, seem to just be throwing stuff at us for the sake of throwing stuff at us to make it all seem that more dire.

Also, why the hell is Batman in Last Will just swinging about? Isn't he supposed to be trapped in that contraption?

Requiem did a much bigger and better job of me feeling for the heroes than LW did. And RR did hit me as more just a big dirty fight with a Captain Cold spotlight than anything. Obviously good, and Kolins looks as good as always, but nothing I'd say was better than an 8/10. It didn't blow my mind. Really, nothing FC related has, but I've read a handful of very well executed stuff from it so far. I'm also very jaded, so there's that too...

[humphrey-lee]

Actually, sounds like a good topic for a new thread: Top Ten series of all time and Top Ten Graphic Novels of all time?

I was thinking The "Ask Humphrey Lee" Thread would be much cooler... if I ever pull that trigger... which I probably won't... because I'm not that much of an attention whore... I think... :rolleyes:

[oh_caroline]

@Humphrey Lee
Also, when I was describing earlier the kind of stuff I like reading and I said dark/nihilistic/misanthropic books, a perfect example of this is the Watchmen but in particular Rorschach's character and his commentary throughout the book through his journal entries. His character was just perfection on a page for me. It's almost as though in one way he is emotionally retarded yet so perceptive at the same time. God I love that book. I loved the isolation, loneliness and helplessness of Doc Manhattan too. Those are easily 2 of the best characters I've ever seen in any kind of media.


Oh, oh! Okay! The book you should try is "The Question" by Denny O'Neil. This is from the mid-80s, and there are two trades that have been released recently and are in print (Zen & Violence, and Poisoned Ground). I believe/hope the rest of it is currently still coming out. Both Rorschach & O'Neil's Question are essentially reboots of a very short-lived character that Steve Ditko wrote/drew in the 60s. O'Neil manages to give the character a completely different political slant than either Rorschach or the original Question. He's not a 'superhero' per se, but is more in the vein of Batman or Green Arrow, in terms of having special/enhanced gadget skills. Like Rorschach, he's a really fascinating take on the vigilante archetype. Aspects of it are dated, but overall this is probably my favorite series ever.

A note on the Ellis/Chabon 'nurse romance' thing: (a) it's kind of fascinating that there hasn't been some kind of attribution-scandal around this, if Chabon really co-opted Ellis's metaphor; I feel like there would be if he'd taken it from another 'literary' writer. I wonder if people in comics are just more used to not owning their ideas (Also: doesn't Bendis have an obvious Ellis-analogue deliver virtually this same speech in an issue of 'Powers'? Did I dream that?) (b) I'm not surprised that they'd be attracted to a similar metaphor, because they are actually saying similar things. Chabon may seem to be 'pro-hero comics' and Ellis 'anti'; but Chabon is speaking to an audience he assumes to consider themselves above such things. Ellis is talking to an audience he thinks is too narrowly attached to one kind of story. Basically, they're both arguing for blending genre lines, they're just doing it from different places.

[paper]

Oh, oh! Okay! The book you should try is "The Question" by Denny O'Neil.

Somewhere, out in the wilderness of California, Dave Accampo just let out an orgasmic moan.

He was probably doing a Vic Sage doodle at the time.

Have you ever seen the impression he does?

http://www.thecheers.org/eng/article_pictures/1247/1412.jpg

[deadspace]

Oh, oh! Okay! The book you should try is "The Question" by Denny O'Neil. This is from the mid-80s, and there are two trades that have been released recently and are in print (Zen & Violence, and Poisoned Ground). I believe/hope the rest of it is currently still coming out. Both Rorschach & O'Neil's Question are essentially reboots of a very short-lived character that Steve Ditko wrote/drew in the 60s. O'Neil manages to give the character a completely different political slant than either Rorschach or the original Question. He's not a 'superhero' per se, but is more in the vein of Batman or Green Arrow, in terms of having special/enhanced gadget skills. Like Rorschach, he's a really fascinating take on the vigilante archetype. Aspects of it are dated, but overall this is probably my favorite series ever.


Ok. I think I might love this! Thanks for that :)

[six-gun]

WHAT?!

Honestly that's like saying Daredevil was just a chat.

I can't believe people prefer Last Will and Testament to RR. Ridiculous.

I have an apology to make Paper, I re-read RR and, well.

I have a new POW

[six-gun]

Somewhere, out in the wilderness of California, Dave Accampo just let out an orgasmic moan.

He was probably doing a Vic Sage doodle at the time.


The art in that book makes me want to vomit. The stories are GREAT though.

[gungadin]

I have an apology to make Paper, I re-read RR and, well.

I have a new POW

Hang on, hang on...

A Johns book.

.....

.... trumped a Brubaker book?

What the fuck just happened?

Not saying it's not warranted.... but... Gods damn...

[paper]

I have an apology to make Paper, I re-read RR and, well.

I have a new POW

Whoa, really? I wasn't saying DD was bad, though. Far from it.

[six-gun]

Whoa, really? I wasn't saying DD was bad, though. Far from it.

That scene with Snark was insanely powerful.

This isn't to say I didn't like DD as much per se, they both got 5's from me, but RR made me scared of the Rogues. DD just made me excited for the future of the comic.

[oh_caroline]

The art in that book makes me want to vomit. The stories are GREAT though.

Are we talking about Denys Cowans on 'The Question'? Some of it's deliberately ugly, and also that was the time when DC was adjusting to better quality and paper, and thus did some things with shades of blue that should be seen by the human eye. (Though "New Teen Titans" was worse). And there's, like, a totally gratuitous panel of a woman eating a candy bar that looks like an explicit sex act.

Still, there's a lot of it I really like, particularly action sequences. And the rain. For some reason, the way rain is drawn in that book takes my breath away.

[six-gun]

Are we talking about Denys Cowans on 'The Question'? Some of it's deliberately ugly, and also that was the time when DC was adjusting to better quality and paper, and thus did some things with shades of blue that should be seen by the human eye. (Though "New Teen Titans" was worse). And there's, like, a totally gratuitous panel of a woman eating a candy bar that looks like an explicit sex act.

Still, there's a lot of it I really like, particularly action sequences. And the rain. For some reason, the way rain is drawn in that book takes my breath away.

Not that it's deliberately ugly, I just think he lacks talent. All of his faces look like non-emotive lumps of candle wax left sitting in a desert for a few days.

[oh_caroline]

Not that it's deliberately ugly, I just think he lacks talent. All of his faces look like non-emotive lumps of candle wax left sitting in a desert for a few days.

I think it's a style choice, rather than lack of talent. I don't love Cowan's faces a lot of the time, but overall it fits the book.

Then, I'm also enjoying what Travel Foreman is doing on "Immortal Iron Fist" and I seem to be in a small minority on that one.

[six-gun]

Last Will was half what I was talking about the "cheap" moments. Obviously, the whole situation with GeoForce was well set up and ran nicely through the story, but the other have was, like you'd expect from that book, "Here's some soft side moments with the heroes!" that really, I know they were the point of the book, but it's all cheap heat, or at least that's how they were written to me. I think the main thing is, I still don't buy the "it's the end of the world as we know it!" setting, because quite frankly Morrison's horrible pacing on FC itself has never made me think for one moment thing's are as bad as they say. It's just been a big ball of Morrisonian ideas thrown at me. Sure, they're on the ropes, but I haven't soaked in a single bit of it all because they and all the FC mini's that aren't Johns, seem to just be throwing stuff at us for the sake of throwing stuff at us to make it all seem that more dire.

Also, why the hell is Batman in Last Will just swinging about? Isn't he supposed to be trapped in that contraption?

Requiem did a much bigger and better job of me feeling for the heroes than LW did. And RR did hit me as more just a big dirty fight with a Captain Cold spotlight than anything. Obviously good, and Kolins looks as good as always, but nothing I'd say was better than an 8/10. It didn't blow my mind. Really, nothing FC related has, but I've read a handful of very well executed stuff from it so far. I'm also very jaded, so there's that too...


Final Crisis may be one of the only thing that you and I have really disagreed about comics-wise.

And so I'll be consistent here and say that I couldn't disagree more.

Seriously, this book was HEART-wrenching

[labor_days]

Oh man, the scene where Heatwave tells the new Heatwave his fire can melt the Flash's boots?

Johns > anyone else writing Flash.

[iSteve]

I know I've been away from the board for a while, but when did this thread become so serious and philosophical? I felt like I had fallen in the deep end when I read this thread.

Actually, I really appreciate the intellectual fervor that the iFanbase brings to comic book discussion. That's why it's the best board on the net!

I haven't gotten through all my books yet, but for my opinion thus far, I'd have to choose The Immortal Iron Fist #18 as my POW. Daredevil #110 ranks right up at the top too. So many good books this week. Can't wait to read the rest.

[paper]

RE: Rogues' Revenge

I like the moment when Mick chides him for not loving fire enough. "You never appreciated it, did you? The beautiful dance it does."

I love that character. He's not just a villain who uses fire as a weapon. He's obsessed with it. He let his family burn to death because the fire was too beautiful to try and put out. And that's just one of the fantastic characters in this mini.

[six-gun]

RE: Rogues' Revenge

I like the moment when Mick chides him for not loving fire enough. "You never appreciated it, did you? The beautiful dance it does."

I love that character. He's not just a villain who uses fire as a weapon. He's obsessed with it. He let his family burn to death because the fire was too beautiful to try and put out. And that's just one of the fantastic characters in this mini.

that scene was off the charts good

[labor_days]

Khoi Pham's art in Mighty Avengers was terrible. Story was pretty ho-hum as well.

Average comix. The only thing worse than awful comix.

[six-gun]

Khoi Pham's art in Mighty Avengers was terrible. Story was pretty ho-hum as well.

Average comix. The only thing worse than awful comix.

seconded

[humphrey-lee]

Anyway, I'm more interested than ever in hearing your 10 favourite comics of all time because I think I might like similar stuff to you. I've been trying to find out stuff about Starman but I'm having trouble finding info on the publications. What's the first one called?

And sorry that I made this thread so off-topic! :o

The first TPB is called "Sins of the Father". The problem is, Vols. 4 & 5 are Out of Print and going for as much as the Omnibus itself in some places on line, which pretty much makes the Omnibus Volumes the best way to read the series, but there's no reason to shell out $50 (about $34 through InStockTrades) to just try out a series on my say so.

And, we've done the list here before I think, but what the hell

Sandman
Watchmen
V for Vendetta
Preacher
Transmetropolitan
Lucifer
Starman
From Hell
Bone
and a player to be named later, because I can never decide what to fit in that last slot.

Also, keep in mind, I never put anything on the list until it's done, so while Fables is undoubtedly going to earn a spot on there if it keeps going as strong as it is until its finish, until that happens though, it stays on the bench. Planetary would probably fit that last slot (and here's where I say that's a "superhero" book you could fucking sink your teeth into I imagine, go hunt that down) but it still has an issue left til completion.

[deadspace]

The first TPB is called "Sins of the Father". The problem is, Vols. 4 & 5 are Out of Print and going for as much as the Omnibus itself in some places on line, which pretty much makes the Omnibus Volumes the best way to read the series, but there's no reason to shell out $50 (about $34 through InStockTrades) to just try out a series on my say so.

I'm watching the 1st 2 trades on ebay so if I can get them cheap then I'll get them. If I love it so much that I want 4 & 5... well I'll deal with that if/when it happens :)

And, we've done the list here before I think, but what the hell

Sandman
Watchmen
V for Vendetta
Preacher
Transmetropolitan
Lucifer
Starman
From Hell
Bone
and a player to be named later, because I can never decide what to fit in that last slot.


Thanks :) Is there a 'top 10' thread here? I tried a search but couldn't find anything. It might be quite cool to have one as a sticky..? I'd beinterested to know everyone's top 10. Maybe a list of completed series/ogns and current series' that haven't finished yet?

Also, keep in mind, I never put anything on the list until it's done, so while Fables is undoubtedly going to earn a spot on there if it keeps going as strong as it is until its finish, until that happens though, it stays on the bench. Planetary would probably fit that last slot (and here's where I say that's a "superhero" book you could fucking sink your teeth into I imagine, go hunt that down) but it still has an issue left til completion.

Oh how spooky. I've just come back from town where I bought the 1st Planetary trade! I've read the 1st 2 stories in it already and I really like it. I love the Snow character - he's the type of character I love reading. He's one of those miserable old loner type of guys and comes out with some very witty remarks. The dialogue is great.

I'm finding humour in places that I'm not sure is meant to be funny. Is Ellis in any way making fun of superheroes in this book? I'm not sure if there is a slight parody going on here or if I'm reading too much into it.

[labor_days]

Oh hey, isn't there a recommendations thread...stickied at the top of the forum? :rolleyes:

[deadspace]

Oh hey, isn't there a recommendations thread...stickied at the top of the forum? :rolleyes:

...yes.

why?

[dave-accampo]

I can't believe people prefer Last Will and Testament to RR. Ridiculous.

I preferred it. Wanna make something of it? ;)

Last Will was a cool story, complete on its own. It carried within it one of my favorite bits about stories: an elusive Truth. As mentioned upthread, I feel the point of most stories is to reveal some emotional Truth. But real life isn't always clear cut and Truth often depends on perspective. I give Last Will credit for showing the events but giving it some subtle shades. I love that Black Lightning believes his friend did the 'right' thing, when to the reader this is entirely unclear. I love that Geo-force, a hero, can be seen as less than heroic. Or was his suicide attempt the MOST heroic thing he could have done?

Rogues Revenge, as a story, is about showing these characters as multidimensional, conflicted beings. And Johns does a great job with it. I rolled along with it. But it didn't make me marvel at the story, at the meaning and implications in the way that Last Will did.

That's why Last Will wins. For me. Again, I've seen Johns depiction of Snart before. So, it may be that some folks were wowed because this was brand new and daring and original. So maybe I'm jaded in that respect.

Daredevil also beat Rogues Revenge because it was a very good ending, and endings are very hard to do well. The fantastic finale and where it put Daredevil gave it just an edge over Rogues.

Those three books were definitely top of the stack this week. Make no mistake. But if I had to choose..

RR was cool but I have seen Johns' work on the Rogues before, and this was essentially just a link in the chain. It's good. It's very good. But I'm waiting to see what's going to happen.

[hank41]

you know what? based on your guys' response, i am very happy i am not buying Mighty Avengers

[johnvferrigno]

you know what? based on your guys' response, i am very happy i am not buying Mighty Avengers

I'm only buying it right now to keep my run going, because I'm assuming that when Secret Invasion is over, and the Avengers stops being a comic where Bendis can just go "look how clever I was in planning this out!" every month and starts being a comic about, ya know, THE AVENGERS, it will be good again and I don't want the holes in my collection.

[hank41]

fair enough

[gungadin]

you know what? based on your guys' response, i am very happy i am not buying Mighty Avengers

I liked Mighty Avengers. Bendis used this month's to study the character of Hank Pym by making Skrulls about him. It was insanely ingenious... I loved it.

[hank41]

it takes a lot to make Hank Pym interesting now a days.

to me at least

[gungadin]

it takes a lot to make Hank Pym interesting now a days.

to me at least

Maybe it's because I'm new, but the thought that Hank Pym feels so much remorse about what he's done and that he's always going to be trying to make up for it and that came out in his Skrulls (of which there have been many, proving his strength as character) made me literally go ooooooo when I read that. Maybe this is all old hat, but my experience to any not-New Avenger is mostly fairly limited, so this was just an awesome take...

And for that matter, so was New Avengers, the second half of which was just straight character study of Reed Richards...

The art though? I'm not even trying to defend that...

[hank41]

Maybe it's because I'm new, but the thought that Hank Pym feels so much remorse about what he's done and that he's always going to be trying to make up for it and that came out in his Skrulls (of which there have been many, proving his strength as character) made me literally go ooooooo when I read that. Maybe this is all old hat, but my experience to any not-New Avenger is mostly fairly limited, so this was just an awesome take...

but i feel like that's all anyone does with Hank Pym. he's kind of like the Sentry

[siratomofbones]

What was the point of New Avengers?
Mighty Avengers was good but the art not so much

Last will and testment was good but kind of pointless.Also when is it taking place?

Rouges was my POW

Ultmate spidy was just seting for whats going to happen.

Spider man SI was better then i thought it was going to be but why can't they just tie it into the reg spidy book.

[hank41]

What was the point of New Avengers?

IMO. it was to explain how the Skrulls actually achieved this and infiltrated us. did i just say us? isn't this a comic book? whatever, seeing Barack Obama and John McCain in my comic books freaks me out

[siratomofbones]

IMO. it was to explain how the Skrulls actually achieved this and infiltrated us. did i just say us? isn't this a comic book? whatever, seeing Barack Obama and John McCain in my comic books freaks me out

Pointless still.

[deadspace]

The first TPB is called "Sins of the Father". The problem is, Vols. 4 & 5 are Out of Print and going for as much as the Omnibus itself in some places on line, which pretty much makes the Omnibus Volumes the best way to read the series, but there's no reason to shell out $50 (about $34 through InStockTrades) to just try out a series on my say so.

I got the first 2 Starman trades for a fiver including postage on ebay, which in your speak means $5 each :D

[johnvferrigno]

IMO. seeing Barack Obama and John McCain in my comic books freaks me out

Seeing those two as the choices on a Presidential ballot freaks me out far more than seeing them in my comics.

[gungadin]

but i feel like that's all anyone does with Hank Pym. he's kind of like the Sentry

The difference between Pym and The Sentry, though, is that Pym is a uniquely interesting and layered character that people are trying to redeem... Whereas the Sentry can be interesting and layered, but they're not doing anything with him. He's just the running joke. The thing I liked about Pym is they did it insanely subtly, whereas The Sentry is mostly them shoving the same thing down your throat.

[hank41]

The difference between Pym and The Sentry, though, is that Pym is a uniquely interesting and layered character that people are trying to redeem... Whereas the Sentry can be interesting and layered, but they're not doing anything with him. He's just the running joke. The thing I liked about Pym is they did it insanely subtly, whereas The Sentry is mostly them shoving the same thing down your throat.

that's very very true. i guess it's just that everyone does the same thing with Hank and it gets old

[johnvferrigno]

that's very very true. i guess it's just that everyone does the same thing with Hank and it gets old

I loved the ending of the Ultron story in the Busiek/Perez run on Avengers, where Pym finally saved the day and put ll his psychological problems behind him, becoming a confident and heroic character. Too bad that lasted about 5 minutes.

[gungadin]

I loved the ending of the Ultron story in the Busiek/Perez run on Avengers, where Pym finally saved the day and put ll his psychological problems behind him, becoming a confident and heroic character. Too bad that lasted about 5 minutes.

But who wants a boring, no-baggage-wielding, perfect character? I'm not saying what they did is right, but Pym being the dude always seeking redemption for a single act that has scarred him forever isn't a bad road for them?

[humphrey-lee]

I got the first 2 Starman trades for a fiver including postage on ebay, which in your speak means $5 each :D

Oh, more people taking my recommendations. This will end well. :D

[hank41]

I got the ominbus but haven't read it yet

[deadspace]

Oh, more people taking my recommendations. This will end well. :D

Yeah, cos if I hate them, you send me a refund, right?

:D

Edit: I just saw that you read Doktor Sleepless. Do you like it? I read the 1st issue and am waiting for the trade...

[crippler]

Super busy week and just getting caught up on last week's discussions today.... and... I'm blown away at how many people seemed to LOVE Last Will and Testament. I had high hopes for this book after what Meltzer did with Identity Crisis. This book came nowhere close to fulfilling them.

At least it explains why there was no Final Crisis logo on the book... it doesn't seem to fit in at all.. and it's all over the place. Too bad. This book was my biggest dissapointment of the week. A gigantic pile of 'Meh." for LW&T.