New Comics Discussion for 08/27/2008

[conorkilpatrick]

Tell us what you thought of the books of the week!

Here's what Josh (http://www.ifanboy.com/users/Josh/comics), Ron (http://www.ifanboy.com/users/Ron/comics), Conor (http://www.ifanboy.com/users/Conor/comics), and Gordon (http://www.ifanboy.com/users/Gordon/comics) are reading.

This week's Pick of the Week:

http://www.ifanboy.com/comics/marvel_comics/daredevil/110/cover-medium.jpg

From here on out, it's SPOILER-O-RAMA.

Don't forget to rate and review the books over at iFanboy.com (http://www.ifanboy.com/comics)!

[labor_days]

I need a snappy title tying into current events for my weekly comic discussion thread, Conor.

Little underwhelming without it, to be honest.

[gobo]

I'm glad Ryan Choi hasn't completely faded into obscurity. He popped up in Trinity this week!

[six-gun]

I need a snappy title tying into current events for my weekly comic discussion thread, Conor.

Little underwhelming without it, to be honest.

I concur with the distinguished gentleman from Illinois.

[gobo]

I'm very curious what Labor thought of Superman Beyond

[labor_days]

I'm very curious what Labor thought of Superman Beyond

Picking up my books tomorrow. But I will say something slightly hyperbolic when I do read it.

[gobo]

That doesn't sound like you at all!

My hyperbolic Superman Beyond review: Fucking garbage

[labor_days]

I know man!

I am trying to punch it up for this forum. Bring some edge to the dudes hand-jobbing each other over Proof*. ;)



*I have not read Proof. Not interested at all. I'm cracking jokes here. If you are yelling at your monitor, frowning in disapproval or otherwise cross; get off the goddamn internet.

[horatio616]

Man, Daredevil is always good!

DD #110 review (http://ifanboy.com/reviews/ultimatehoratio/marvel_comics/daredevil/110)

[aerodynamics]

The art in JSA sure fell off this month.

Superman was great.

I haven't found a good enough place to hide while reading Superman:Beyond-3D. I needs to let my 4D vision upgrade develop in private, knowwhatimean?

Later: "Eegads! I can see time!"

[neb]

Can anyone explain what knocked Silver Sable out in Ultimate Spider-Man? Anyone?

BTW: Venom eating an entire horse with a cop on top = one of most ridiculous panels in a long ass time. God, I love Immomen.

[paper]

Than son of a bitch is going to kill Krypto. I fucking know it.

[kwok_talk]

Serious stuff went down in Final Crisis: Last Will and Testament. It was really really good.

[piscespaul]

Amen Kwok, half way through my stack and its my pick of the week

[paper]

Yep. Northlanders still blows. Could they please give this to Jason Aaron, even if just to doctor the script? Bleh.

[aerodynamics]

Than son of a bitch is going to kill Krypto. I fucking know it.

It'll be an epic battle, no doubt.

The page with Atlus standing on Supe's head ... arresting.

PS: Krypto's kind of a son of a bitch, too.

[horatio616]

Uhm, anybody want my copy of Superman Beyond 3-D?

[paper]

I picked up Guerillas #1 because it was a #1 from Image and I'm trying to branch out and try some new things. I was in a hurry and neglected to check the price tag. $5.99 for a book that looks not so appealing. This better be an awesome story or I made a huge mistake. 52 pages though, so we'll see.

[gobo]

Uhm, anybody want my copy of Superman Beyond 3-D?You could keep it around in case you need to start a fire

[paper]

Ok, reading Superman Beyond now...

[horatio616]

Ok, reading Superman Beyond now...

Take some aspirin first so as to prevent a potential aneyurism.

Have you read Alan Moore's Supreme? He has an awesome superpet, Radar.

[paper]

Ok, reading Superman Beyond now...

....huh.

[deadspace]

I picked up Guerillas #1 because it was a #1 from Image and I'm trying to branch out and try some new things. I was in a hurry and neglected to check the price tag. $5.99 for a book that looks not so appealing. This better be an awesome story or I made a huge mistake. 52 pages though, so we'll see.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think of it. After a lot of humming and hawwing (over the price tag) I added it to my pull list but I'm not buying til tomorrow so I may change my mind. I love trying new things but the joy of comics is that you can try something new for $2.99. I realise $5.99 is good for the number of pages but I'd much prefer half the price and half the size because really I would only be buying for a taster of what the series is going to be like.

[optimus187prime]

I picked up Guerillas #1 because it was a #1 from Image and I'm trying to branch out and try some new things. I was in a hurry and neglected to check the price tag. $5.99 for a book that looks not so appealing. This better be an awesome story or I made a huge mistake. 52 pages though, so we'll see.

:eek::eek::eek: Wow that better have a collectable, ultra rare, foil, chrome cover


Spider Man 569 New Ways to Die Pt 2 is my POW. I love what Slott is putting down here and I am really anticipating the Venom/Anti-Venom/Spidey/Thunderbolts throwdown. Of course JR JR is Killing the pencils in two books for us this week. For some reason I always love it when Norman is horribly mean to Harry.

[paper]

I hope everybody picked up Black Panther. It was badass. So much fun. This is my favorite thing to come out of Secret Invasion. Anybody can pick this up and enjoy it. Great action packed script by Jason Aaron and fantastic art by Jefte Palo. I hope to see more of Jefte Palo on books like this or Iron Fist, even something like Spider-Man. Really dynamic battle scenes.

[optimus187prime]

I hope everybody picked up Black Panther. It was badass. So much fun. This is my favorite thing to come out of Secret Invasion. Anybody can pick this up and enjoy it. Great action packed script by Jason Aaron and fantastic art by Jefte Palo. I hope to see more of Jefte Palo on books like this or Iron Fist, even something like Spider-Man. Really dynamic battle scenes.

Reading Black Panther that the art is what stood out to me the most. The contrast of shadows and perfectly depicted fights, I wanna see more of his work too. Aaron wasnt too shabby either.

[gobo]

Black Panther was amazing, but I can't say it's my favourite thing to come out of SI.

I have no interest in reading the book after Aaron leaves, unlike Captain Britain which I'm going to keep reading.

[paper]

Let it be known that I missed a couple issues of Captain Britain and will be getting it in trade if that becomes available. Otherwise it would probably be competing with Black Panther for my SI affections.

[gobo]

Damn that's worse than missing Frank Frazetta's Creatures!

[paper]

....did they accidentally print the word 'murder' when they meant to say 'miracle' in JSA this week?

(Caption box, left hand page, Judomaster is stretching, doing a split.)

[bgavino]

God did the Last Will and testament stink. What a waste. I didn't think I could dislike Geo-Force more. Well I was wrong. Seriously what was the point of this book? To show how lame Geo-Force can be? I don't care about Geo-Force his characters sucks he always has. I wish Deathstroke would have killed him. That would have been a better ending. Was the point of this book to get me excited for Batman and The Outsiders? Well guess what it did the exact opposite. It made me never want to read that book. Why is there a Final Crisis tie in book about Geo-Force? Why does Meltzer love this character? Ugh sorry about the rant I just really dislike Geo-Force. That was the first thing I read now I'm worried about the rest.

Bryan

[gobo]

I think so... murders MIGHT make sense if it was after he turned bad guys into trees.

[horatio616]

....huh.

Perfect! It's like when Cap'n Reynolds opened the box and found River in it at the end of the first episode of Firefly.

[labor_days]

Just read Superman Beyond.

I have a lot to say about it but need to go to bed right now.

Best thing I read FC related. Big ideas. Important ideas.

Next level comics.

[gobo]

Wow..

[horatio616]

Just read Superman Beyond.

I have a lot to say about it but need to go to bed right now.

Best thing I read FC related. Big ideas. Important ideas.

Next level comics.

What if one day Morrison writes a book and Bagley does the art?

I fear your soul would collapse onto itself.

[aerodynamics]

....did they accidentally print the word 'murder' when they meant to say 'miracle' in JSA this week?

(Caption box, left hand page, Judomaster is stretching, doing a split.)

I'm certain that's what was intended.

"Murder" for "Miracle" is really a strange slip ...

[labor_days]

Wow..

What do you want me to say? I am not confused by my comic books.

Far more interesting to me to read a parallel of Superman going to the river Styx where the gods of past fiction are forgotten and inert. That within the imagination of man we create an infinite story of infinite pages by thought alone.

I dig on that stuff far more than Spider-Man punching a criminal in the face.

[paper]

I didn't hate Superman Beyond. I didn't love it. He needs to slow down. These stories he's telling might work a little better if he'd decompress a little. It's so surfacy. With such big ideas hurled at the reader in such rapid succession, the result is...it's just information. It's just ideas. It's an essay. Its stops being a story.

I like what he's saying. I get what Labor likes about books like this. But I want Morrison to dig a little deeper and show me these ideas rather than telling me. That's just my personal taste in narrative storytelling.

[deadspace]

:eek::eek::eek: Wow that better have a collectable, ultra rare, foil, chrome cover


Unfortunately not. It's just a regular issue. B&W too I think. They just decided to make the first issue double the size for double the price. Strange, if you ask me.

[labor_days]

I am not concerned with story specifics. I only believe story and plot are mechanisms or gears, to be more accurate, of the idea.

The idea is the only thing that matters.

[gobo]

I am not concerned with story specifics. I only believe story and plot are mechanisms or gears, to be more accurate, of the idea.

The idea is the only thing that matters.

I think superman beyond had some beautiful ideas but the gears and mechanisms just did not work, gears slipped, things squeaked, smoke came out. Really the machine needed a major tune up.

[paper]

I am not concerned with story specifics. I only believe story and plot are mechanisms or gears, to be more accurate, of the idea.

The idea is the only thing that matters.

That's fine. But I'm proposing that the distinction in liking this or not liking it is not a matter of intelligence versus stupidity. It's more complicated than that. This is a matter of taste. Because, even though I dislike the execution, I get what he's saying. I eat this stuff up. But I'd rather see a little more story to accompany these profound ideas.

[ryan79]

Alright, I have to get this off my chest. Kick-Ass is not good. Sure, the art is fine, but it's four issues in and the story is going nowhere. At least nowhere I want to go. Josh was right when he said this booked is fucked up. It just makes me...uncomfortable to read it. I don't need that. I'm dropping it.

I had a whopper of a stack but my POW goes to Final Crisis: Rogue's Revenge. Forget Batman and Spider-Man...the Flash has the best villains in comics. From start to finish, this was a wonderful story. Cold's confrontation with his dad, the battle with the pretenders, Trickster's slow progression into being accepted...it was all fantastic. I hate that this is only a three issue series, though.

Avengers: The Initiative was just fun. Skrull Kill Krew? Sure, why not? And Ant-Man is going to be Earth's savior, you just watch.

Runaways....oh Runaways...what has happened to you? Nothing about this book made me what to buy the next issue. Couldn't stand the art, it felt like there were pages missing, and the dialogue was just...corny. It pains me because this book was SO good....and now, this. Looks like I'm going to have to Ol' Yeller this book right off my pull list.

And I'm looking at you, too, Thunderbolts. You need to get your shit together or you're the next to go.

DMZ is great. That is all.

She-Hulk. I don't know why I keep doing this to myself. I guess I'm just a Marvel Zombie to the bone. The art is nice, though.

Amazing Spider-Man really didn't do anything for me. Or maybe I'm just tired of seeing the Thunderbolts in every single Marvel book I read.

[gobo]

Runaways....oh Runaways...what has happened to you? Nothing about this book made me what to buy the next issue. Couldn't stand the art, it felt like there were pages missing, and the dialogue was just...corny. It pains me because this book was SO good....and now, this. Looks like I'm going to have to Ol' Yeller this book right off my pull list.

She-Hulk. I don't know why I keep doing this to myself. I guess I'm just a Marvel Zombie to the bone. The art is nice, though.

I LOVED Runaways, leaps and bounds better than Whedon's run and all the mini's that have come out in between with them and YA.

She-Hulk was tons of fun, lots of tongue-in-cheek humour that I feel has been missing for the last few months. A step back in the right direction.

[horatio616]

Alright, I have to get this off my chest. Kick-Ass is not good. Sure, the art is fine, but it's four issues in and the story is going nowhere. At least nowhere I want to go. Josh was right when he said this booked is fucked up. It just makes me...uncomfortable to read it. I don't need that. I'm dropping it.


It's weird, but this is exactly how I feel about 1985. Here, I feel the tone fits the story Millar is trying to tell, whereas in 1985, I feel the dark tone works against the story.

I forgot to tell you that when I was in the shop last week she was going off on Wal-Mart for pushing Blu-Ray. I remembered your warning and laughed on the inside. (I dare not laugh out loud when she's ranting.)

[gobo]

Oh I also totally got a huge grin on my face when they referenced Marvel 1985 in the comic shop in Kick-Ass

[cenquist]

Oh I also totally got a huge grin on my face when they referenced Marvel 1985 in the comic shop in Kick-Ass

Kick Ass was "meh" this week...the art is still fantastic though.

[ryan79]

It's weird, but this is exactly how I feel about 1985. Here, I feel the tone fits the story Millar is trying to tell, whereas in 1985, I feel the dark tone works against the story.

I forgot to tell you that when I was in the shop last week she was going off on Wal-Mart for pushing Blu-Ray. I remembered your warning and laughed on the inside. (I dare not laugh out loud when she's ranting.)


You're never going to look at the Blob the same way again, are you?

And you're damn right you didn't laugh when she was in mid-rant. Bless her heart, she's only a couple steps away from the crazy cat lady on The Simpsons.

[neb]

I found DCU: Last Will and Testament to be very "meh." I didn't mind the Geo-Force stuff so much (his fight with Deathstroke is cool and surprising), but I found the art crazy jarring. Just because they're related does not mean Joe and Adam draw the same.

I think someone mentioned this on the site, but I don't quite get where this fits in with the event. Is that why this isn't a Final Crisis book?

[gungadin]

I didn't hate Superman Beyond. I didn't love it. He needs to slow down. These stories he's telling might work a little better if he'd decompress a little. It's so surfacy. With such big ideas hurled at the reader in such rapid succession, the result is...it's just information. It's just ideas. It's an essay. Its stops being a story.

I like what he's saying. I get what Labor likes about books like this. But I want Morrison to dig a little deeper and show me these ideas rather than telling me. That's just my personal taste in narrative storytelling.

Solidarity.

That's my issue with Morrison more than anything. The guy's a mad frakkin genius. I don't think anyone will disagree with that... But... Man. He does need to slow down. Can he not just totally throw the idea out? There's a story here, a damn good one, but let's know the story. That's interesting to me.

[dave-accampo]

What do you want me to say? I am not confused by my comic books. For me, it crystallizes where we differ in our comic books.

Ideas are cool. They're awesome.

They're not stories.

Also: totally recycled ideas from his Animal Man. Not sure if I like that or not.

[dave-accampo]

The idea is the only thing that matters. Yeah, what I just posted previously.

Ideas aren't stories. I want stories that make me FEEL something. Ideas are dime a dozen. The craft it takes to put you in someone shoes and make you weep for them is where the money's at (for me).

[dave-accampo]

I didn't hate Superman Beyond. I didn't love it. He needs to slow down. These stories he's telling might work a little better if he'd decompress a little. It's so surfacy. With such big ideas hurled at the reader in such rapid succession, the result is...it's just information. It's just ideas. It's an essay. Its stops being a story.

I like what he's saying. I get what Labor likes about books like this. But I want Morrison to dig a little deeper and show me these ideas rather than telling me. That's just my personal taste in narrative storytelling.

Paper always says it better than me. ;)

[dave-accampo]

God did the Last Will and testament stink. What a waste. I didn't think I could dislike Geo-Force more. Well I was wrong. Seriously what was the point of this book? Whoo... couldn't disagree with this one more.

I have no love for Geo-force. It's really not about "this is a good character, this is not." It's about the story on the page. This is about a man grieving, set upon revenge. I thought it was far superior to Meltzer's JLA work. Maybe because it's a small, atmospheric, character piece. What's the point of the book? What's the point of any book? This was to show one man's actions in grief. I loved subtle twists that added nuance to the book. Did he kill himself as part of his plan? Was he just trying to kill himself and got lucky with the sword at the end? Did he really just "beat" Deathstroke as Jeff thinks? Or did he just miss the killing strike? It creates a lot of uncertainty with Geo-Force going forward. It gives him a new character dynamic.

I also like the little character vignettes surrounding the main story. superfluous? Maybe. But they really added to the tone and set the atmosphere of the book. I really enjoyed this one.

[dave-accampo]

Ya know, I gotta say: I really dug both New and Mighty Avengers this week.

It really struck me this week that Bendis is using (and has the freedom to use) the Avengers books to tell some very original and non-traditional stories set in the Marvel U. New Avengers is particular was fantastic. A whole issue dedicated to the Skrullls figuring out how to use Reed Richards brain to help them conquer Earth? That was fantastic.

And I wasn't sold on the first Hank Pym story in Mighty, but I really did like this one here. The idea that Pym's mental instability means that they keep burning through skrull clones was really cool.

Do they move SI forward? No. Do they inform the main story? Yes. But more importantly, they're telling the types of stories you wouldn't normally find in a mainstream book. And there's something cool about that.

[dave-accampo]

Goddamn.

Black Panther was excellent. Rogues Revenge was good.

But Daredevil. Wow. Perfect ending to the story. It doesn't get better than this. Great arc by Rucka and Brubaker. This is most likely my POW, but...

...with Last Will, Rogues Revenge, Black Panther, Mighty and New Avengers, and now Daredevil, this is shaping up to be a strong week of comics for me.

So far, Superman Beyond is about the only title that was just kinda "meh" for me. Of course, I still have a lot to read...

[labor_days]

That's fine. But I'm proposing that the distinction in liking this or not liking it is not a matter of intelligence versus stupidity.
Where did I say this?

It's more complicated than that. This is a matter of taste. Because, even though I dislike the execution, I get what he's saying. I eat this stuff up. But I'd rather see a little more story to accompany these profound ideas.
Yeah, I really disagree fundamentally with you and Dave on this stuff. You two seem to be concerned with story primarily and think there is some importance in that. I do not.

[paper]

Where did I say this?




You imply this constantly. Whether it's your intention or not. Especially when you say things like this:

What do you want me to say? I am not confused by my comic books.

Talk around it all you want. But the implication of that statement, to just about anyone, is "I'm smarter than you. I get it. You didn't. Idiot."

Yes, these are high-minded ideas. Some people aren't going to get them. But plenty of people can follow Morrison's conjecture and not like how he presents it. Has nothing to do with getting it or not.

And we're in agreement that it's simply a subjective disagreement as to the importance of story in high concept narrative.

[kwok_talk]

Wolverine was nuts. I don't understand how a shotgun handle decapitates someone, but I'm loving it too much to care. "You got old!"

[neb]

Wolverine was nuts. I don't understand how a shotgun handle decapitates someone, but I'm loving it too much to care. "You got old!"

Solidarity. You know, I was actually surprised at how bloody this issue was. I mean, it was pretty up there with some Icon and Vertigo titles. I can't imagine a little kid buying this and their parents thinking it's ok...

That said, I'm not a parent, nor am I young, so this issue fucking rocked my ass. In this strong week, it was one of the stronger issues for me.

[kwok_talk]

Solidarity. You know, I was actually surprised at how bloody this issue was. I mean, it was pretty up there with some Icon and Vertigo titles. I can't imagine a little kid buying this and their parents thinking it's ok...

That said, I'm not a parent, nor am I young, so this issue fucking rocked my ass. In this strong week, it was one of the stronger issues for me.

Totally. After that scene, I flipped to the cover to see the rating. Of which I saw none. Ha.

[paper]

Rogues' Revenge....Pick of the Month! Good lord!

[optimus187prime]

I LOVED Runaways, leaps and bounds better than Whedon's run and all the mini's that have come out in between with them and YA.


Same here. I really enjoyed the issue, the art was kinda hit or miss though. I will be down for at least another issue or two. I agree this is much better than what Whedon was throwing down.

[optimus187prime]

Wolverine was nuts. I don't understand how a shotgun handle decapitates someone, but I'm loving it too much to care. "You got old!"

Spider strength + Shotgun handle = Skin ripping like wet paper

Good issue, man this build up for Wolverine to snap back into the fight is maddening. I hope when it happens it is worth the wait.

[paper]

Superman

I continue to enjoy what Robinson is trying to do, while still finding his writing style sort of awkward. It just doesn't click with me. It just feels clunky. He writes about characters and themes that appeal to me, but the words just don't come together as often as I'd like. The last page is awesome, but I will have a fit if he kills Krypto like I know he's going to.

[cammyknoxville]

Of what I've read so far (stupid school), I really, really had fun with Final Crisis: Rogues Revenge #2.

I have sooo much reading to do today.

[ryan79]

Wolverine was nuts. I don't understand how a shotgun handle decapitates someone, but I'm loving it too much to care. "You got old!"

It was another great issue, but I was disappointed with the new Kingpin. Maybe I was hoping it was going to be some off the wall C-list bad guy, not some nameless gangster. I kept thinking "THIS is the guy that killed Magneto?"

[ryan79]

Spider strength + Shotgun handle = Skin ripping like wet paper


Gaaahh, that made my skin crawl.

[gobo]

Rogue's Revenge is my POW... it was close between it, the two Millar books and Black Panther though.

[gungadin]

Superman

I continue to enjoy what Robinson is trying to do, while still finding his writing style sort of awkward. It just doesn't click with me. It just feels clunky. He writes about characters and themes that appeal to me, but the words just don't come together as often as I'd like. The last page is awesome, but I will have a fit if he kills Krypto like I know he's going to.

If he kills Krypto, I'll buy you something.

[face-stl]

Man, jumping into this discussion's kind of like trying to get between the ropes in double-dutch. I think I'm ready tho'. Am I cool to go?

[paper]

If he kills Krypto, I'll buy you something.

Deal.

[paper]

Man, jumping into this discussion's kind of like trying to get between the ropes in double-dutch. I think I'm ready tho'. Am I cool to go?

Dive right in!

[kwok_talk]

It was another great issue, but I was disappointed with the new Kingpin. Maybe I was hoping it was going to be some off the wall C-list bad guy, not some nameless gangster. I kept thinking "THIS is the guy that killed Magneto?"

100% agreed. I thought it was a wasted opportunity to have him be related to the current Marvel U.

[face-stl]

a'ight, here I go..
Trinity's had great covers week after week, this week being no exception. HURR HURR BOOBIES.
Christ, sorry.. :D
Let me try again.

[paper]

Yes, try again. ;)

[face-stl]

a'ight, here I go..
Trinity's had great covers week after week, this week being no exception. HURR HURR BOOBIES.
Christ, sorry.. :D
Let me try again.

just tryin to lighten the load. :o
Anyway, I really enjoyed Rogues Revenge #2. Loved the homage to "The Warriors" on the first page. Did any of you catch it?

[paper]

Yeah....Guerillas was a mistake. For me at least.

[gungadin]

Yeah....Guerillas was a mistake. For me at least.

Sounds like me and Golly, but yours had double the price tag.... Golly #1 was a HUGE mistake. Terrible, terrible comics.

[face-stl]

I picked up Guerillas, thinking I might branch out. Saw the price and back to the shelf it went. In retrospect I feel slightly guilty, but I opted to go with DC Universe Last Will and Testament - I don't regret it.

[gobo]

Sounds like me and Golly, but yours had double the price tag.... Golly #1 was a HUGE mistake. Terrible, terrible comics.

Really? I LOVED Golly

[gungadin]

Really? I LOVED Golly

Golly was some of the worst comics I've ever read. It was terrible and awful.

[gobo]

Wow... why did you hate it so much?

[paper]

Terrible AND awful. That's some rage in the cage.

This is the one Humphrey was all about, yeah?

[gungadin]

Wow... why did you hate it so much?

It was like bad Warren Ellis. Really bad Warren Ellis. The dudes were all tough guys and like "I'll give you tobacco money if you grab her ass. And it can't be a brush it has to be a full grab" and "I'll punch you in the mouth so hard you'll shit teeth" and the art was awful. And there were people just randomly vomiting. It was like... gritty and it didn't need to be gritty at all. It was just bad storytelling. I remember just rolling my eyes in that issue SO much and I rarely do that in comics. It's like in Amadeus when the Emperor yawns in the play. One yawn, it'll play for a month; two and it'll play for a week; three and it closes that night? That many eye rolls makes me want my money back. I see where he's going with the series, and it's not a terrible idea. It was just handled SO poorly and the characters were so stupid. I just didn't care at all....

[paper]

That's how I felt about Northlanders this week. I tried issue 1 and didn't like it, decided to try this new story arc and ended up regretting it. The story itself is interesting, but the execution is terrible. What awful dialogue. I get that they'd be cursing up a storm, but the true goal of writing isn't simply to capture realism. It's got to be compelling realism. Give it a little style. This is the difference between what Brian Wood did and what someone like Jason Aaron can actually pull off.

[gungadin]

Yeah. I dropped Northlanders kinda for that reason. It wasn't terrible, just off enough that I wasn't interested....

[jimski]

Continuity accounting!:

Whatever else it accomplished, Mighty Avengers scratched a bad itch of mine by explaining the Pym Discrepancy from a month or two back. Remember how Hank Pymskrull was in both Avengers books, and in one it seemed like he didn't seem to know things that he knew in the previous issue? I don't know if that irritated other people as much as it did me.

Anyway: different Pymskrull. That's that. Any carping about "how could he do that? he's writing both books!" was oxygen wasted.

[optimus187prime]

100% agreed. I thought it was a wasted opportunity to have him be related to the current Marvel U.

I agree with you agreeing. It was a missed chance to have that nostalgia kick in. I wanna hear the story on how Magneto was taken down but I have a feeling we wont get it.

How about that blonde mohawk the Punisher was rocking?

[paper]

Crap. I think I have to drop Runaways.

[neb]

How about that blonde mohawk the Punisher was rocking?

Not that you thought this, but I'm curious: Did anyone think that was the real Punisher and Daredevil? I'm fairly certain it wasn't, but I think Millar is winking at us all saying, "Look, look, Daredevil and Punisher can get along...and then die!"

[jimski]

Crap. I think I have to drop Runaways.

Come on, now. One more issue to see where it's going. This is Ramos' most subdued visit to Toontown to date.

[paper]

Ramos isn't the problem.

He says, ominously.

[optimus187prime]

Not that you thought this, but I'm curious: Did anyone think that was the real Punisher and Daredevil? I'm fairly certain it wasn't, but I think Millar is winking at us all saying, "Look, look, Daredevil and Punisher can get along...and then die!"

Yeah they are probably not the real deal. I like when those two cant stand each other. Or maybe they wanted to team up.
http://bp1.blogger.com/_IVuxkTDh_cc/Rqk4cXmp6UI/AAAAAAAAANs/EluocqhcOMM/s400/Batman-vs-Daredevil.jpg

[gungadin]

Black Panther kicked ass. Aaron's quickly becoming a top tier writer....

[paper]

Black Panther kicked ass. Aaron's quickly becoming a top tier writer....

I really want him to write Runaways.

[gungadin]

I really want him to write Runaways.

Can he write most things? Things Johns, Brubaker, and Bendis don't write?

I just imagine his Runaways as being grizzly... But that's just me...

[paper]

Which is why it'd be interesting.

Dissonance!

[gobo]

I adore Aaron, but on Runaways? No thank you.

[paper]

Just for an issue!

[gobo]

Oh I'd be down for an Aaron issue, by the end they'd all be doing meth and Niko would be whoring herself

[gungadin]

Just for an issue!

I'd like to see what Aaron would do given an issue of Booster Gold....

[optimus187prime]

Oh I'd be down for an Aaron issue, by the end they'd all be doing meth and Niko would be whoring herself

Sign me up for that book.

[ryan79]

Sign me up for that book.

Seconded!

I mean...Shame...shame on you, Prime.

[optimus187prime]

Seconded!

I mean...Shame...shame on you, Prime.

I know, Im sad. So how about Runaways:The Wire, best crossover ever.

[neb]

Jason Aaron + Johnny DCU = ?

[labor_days]

You imply this constantly. Whether it's your intention or not. Especially when you say things like this:


Talk around it all you want. But the implication of that statement, to just about anyone, is "I'm smarter than you. I get it. You didn't. Idiot."

Yes, these are high-minded ideas. Some people aren't going to get them. But plenty of people can follow Morrison's conjecture and not like how he presents it. Has nothing to do with getting it or not.

And we're in agreement that it's simply a subjective disagreement as to the importance of story in high concept narrative.
Strange. I was preempting the usual "I don't know what is going" type of statements that come up surrounding Morrison's FC work.

I'm pretty open when it comes to expressing my disgust toward those that read Ultimate Spider-man and such. No need to talk around it. I say it out right.

The stuff of Black Panther, BND Spider-Man or Blue Beetle, while fun (I read 'em), are the popcorn flicks of comics. That is alright. I will never treat them on the level of comics created by artists that attempt to challenge the medium itself.

I do not it believe it is subjective either. Story is simply not as important as the idea.

[paper]

Really convincing in a declarative sentence. Care to back it up?

[aerodynamics]

Strange. I was preempting the usual "I don't know what is going" type of statements that come up surrounding Morrison's FC work.

I'm pretty open when it comes to expressing my disgust toward those that read Ultimate Spider-man and such. No need to talk around it. I say it out right.

The stuff of Black Panther, BND Spider-Man or Blue Beetle, while fun (I read 'em), are the popcorn flicks of comics. That is alright. I will never treat them on the level of comics created by artists that attempt to challenge the medium itself.

I do not it believe it is subjective either. Story is simply not as important as the idea.

Sir, there are no two ways about it.

Your views are subjectionable. Objectionable.

Wait ... which one is it again?

[gobo]

subjective
I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[labor_days]

Really convincing in a declarative sentence. Care to back it up?

Sure, a story is only the result of an idea. The human experience is condensible to 3 story archetypes; man v. man, man v. nature/universe, man v. himself. Nearly every story is a variation of these 3 types. All very standard stuff.

Execution and dressing are the only real differences.

Plot and story are gears that turn the machine of the idea. They are not the machine itself.

[gobo]

Ideas are the uncooked meal, the raw materials but the joy comes from the expert chef preparing it.

An expert chef can make a delicious meal out of anything, but a lousy chef can turn a nice piece of meat into overcooked shoe leather or an undercooked transport medium for food poisoning.

[gungadin]

And without the gears the machine falls whole frakkin apart and/or it doesn't work.

[aerodynamics]

Labor has a point:

Really, Superman4DSUPERVISION was of the secret 'Universe v. Universe' archetype.

Jung, of course, knew of this archetype, but he kept the evidence of it hidden between his mattress and box-spring for undisclosed reasons.

[labor_days]

And without the gears the machine falls whole frakkin apart and/or it doesn't work.

Already said that...

Plot and story are gears that turn the machine of the idea. They are not the machine itself.

But there is nothing of story without the idea. The story is in service to the idea. That is why you wrote the story just so.

[paper]

Then why do you keep reading these three ideas? I agree that the conflicts are ancient and limited. But why do we still put up with them?

Story. Detail. Nuance. That's why.

It's not just what you're saying. It's how you say it.

A stick figure can represent a woman. But we'd both rather see Jaimie McKelvie draw that woman.

Idea is armature. Story is meat, is sinew, is breath, is heaving bosoms, is the motion of the fucking ocean. Idea holds it up. But story, character, detail, is how you see it. They need each other. Idea is sea and story is swell. And what is one without the other but a mute and passive noun and a verb with nothing to move?

Morrison wrote an essay this week. It's an outline. He's capable of better. As an enthusiast of his bright ideas, you deserve better. He's capable of better.

Art isn't a what. It's a how and it's a why. It's variation. Bad story IS a machine. Good story is seamless. It's part of the idea. It doesn't just hide it. I've said it once, I've said it a million time. Don't tell me your idea. Show me your idea. Story illuminates idea. It brings credence. What is an idea if you can't see it? If you want me to believe it, you better paint it in the best light possible. Activate it.

Ask for a little bit more.

[labor_days]

Then why do you keep reading these three ideas? Story. Detail. Nuance. That's why.

It's not just what you're saying. It's how you say it.

I am pleased with the way Morrison said these things in Superman Beyond.

I was engaged, interested and delighted by the issue.

Of course, I don't want poor story with great ideas. Or vice versa. Ideally it all hits. But short of that, a fabulous idea that fails is better than a poor idea that succeeds.

[aerodynamics]

So ... it wasn't so much an story about ideas as an idea about stories. Right???

None of this even matters, of course, because, as we all know, in this issue Superman was totally IN FRONT OF STUFF.

*high-fives*

[labor_days]

So ... it wasn't so much an story about ideas as an idea about stories. Right???
We are speaking of two separate things; the issue itself, which I thought was fine in story and plot (but I actually have some gripes about pacing). Others did not. And of the evaluation and importance of story vs. idea.

None of this even matters, of course, because, as we all know, in this issue Superman was totally IN FRONT OF STUFF.

*high-fives*

High fucking five. It was awesome!

[neb]

I think it's safe to say that, with Labor, Morrison's ideas are dressed just perfectly each and every time they're delivered. His style, as deep and challenging (or surfacy and light) it may be, speaks to his soul.

With others, he may not dress these ideas appropriately, and thus, they look like overweight, crack whores who can barely stand.

This is purely a different strokes, different folks kind of thing (in regards to this issue).

This is why Morrison creates such fervor, and in a way, I think sometimes he does it on purpose, just to fuck with us.

I'm really interested to read this issue. (BTW: Is it weird that I kind of don't want to read it because I don't want to rip the glasses out? Is it a sign that I may need to seek help for my addiction/OCD?)

[horatio616]

The stuff of Black Panther, BND Spider-Man or Blue Beetle, while fun (I read 'em), are the popcorn flicks of comics. That is alright. I will never treat them on the level of comics created by artists that attempt to challenge the medium itself.


And Superman Beyond is the Matrix Reloaded of comics. So utterly pretentious.

[labor_days]

Also, while it may have sounded as though I disliked Black Panther up thread. I did not. It was sweet!~!

Secret Invasion continues to rock my face. Take that, Mr. Montgomery.

[aerodynamics]

We are speaking of two separate things; the issue itself, which I thought was fine in story and plot (but I actually have some gripes about pacing). Others did not. And of the evaluation and importance of story vs. idea.



High fucking five. It was awesome!

It certainly was a rad sequence of events presented as a narrative, but when Woody Allen showed up, I was all: I totally don't know what's going on here.

PS: If time is frozen, wouldn't all movement be impossible (to say nothing of vision, etc.), even is one excluded oneself from the freezing? I mean, you'd still have to move amongst immovable matter (such as the oxygen, nitrogen etc. molecules in the air and other airborne matter), right?

[horatio616]

Also, while it may have sounded as though I disliked Black Panther up thread. I did not. It was sweet!~!

Secret Invasion continues to rock my face. Take that, Mr. Montgomery.

Have you read LoEG: The Black Dossier? That's the book that I thought of while reading Superman Beyond and not just because of the 3D. It's a nice intellectual exercise, if unengaging.

[neb]

In terms of story vs. idea: I think they're very much intertwined. An idea cannot reach its full potential without a good story, but a good story needs a good idea. It's pure insanity to argue one is more important than the other.

For some, the ideas may speak to them more than the nuances. The nuances of the story may speak to others more than the ideas (I think of the phrase, "It's been done before, but they're doing it really, really well.")

I wonder if those that snub comics would ever consider such a discussion between comic readers? Three cheers for us!

[gobo]

One thing is for sure, the art in Superman Beyond was AWESOME

[neb]

PS: If time is frozen, wouldn't all movement be impossible (to say nothing of vision, etc.), even is one excluded oneself from the freezing? I mean, you'd still have to move amongst immovable matter (such as the oxygen, nitrogen etc. molecules in the air and other airborne matter), right?

This scenario hurts my brain.

BUT, I shall take a guess.

The force of your movement would move such light particles (like molecules) out of the way. Think of water displacement...your movements would displace the particles.

[paper]

I'm just bored with SI. Black Panther aside, of course. I just don't care about these characters anymore.

[aerodynamics]

(BTW: Is it weird that I kind of don't want to read it because I don't want to rip the glasses out? Is it a sign that I may need to seek help for my addiction/OCD?)

Ha ha. I actually removed the lower staple so that I could pull out the glasses unit without ripping anything, with the intention of replacing the glasses piece later. I then replaced the staple and went on to read the the issue by holding the whole damn thing up to my face (so I didn't have to rip apart the thing and assemble it) lookin' like a goddamn dilletante at the opera.

I really must give myself credit for taking an awkward situation and making it more so.

[labor_days]

Have you read LoEG: The Black Dossier? That's the book that I thought of while reading Superman Beyond and not just because of the 3D. It's a nice intellectual exercise, if unengaging.

Really? I thought Black Dossier was some of Moore's finest LoEG work. Tore through it in one sitting and read again straight through later that day.


In terms of story vs. idea: I think they're very much intertwined. An idea cannot reach its full potential without a good story, but a good story needs a good idea. It's pure insanity to argue one is more important than the other.

Not at all. Idea comes before the story. You can't write the story all the way through with no hook/idea in mind. You come up with the idea and build the story toward realizing that idea.

The idea comes first. The story services the idea.

[neb]

\
Not at all. Idea comes before the story. You can't write the story all the way through with no hook/idea in mind. You come up with the idea and build the story toward realizing that idea.

The idea comes first. The story services the idea.

Absolutely, but I guess I was interpreting your comments as if the idea is good enough, the story means fuck all. I can see your point now.

The idea definitely births the story, but the story raises the idea. Something like that?

(This has really become a challenge as to who can come up the best analogies...)

[labor_days]

Also, I love how completely corny and silly it was to be reading a "4-D" comic. Love when writers force readers to physically interact with modern day comic books as they were in their pulp days of past.

And that page with the comic panels vanishing to the center as Superman stands betwixt the multiverse; holy fucking shit.

Next level.

[paper]

Absolutely, but I guess I was interpreting your comments as if the idea is good enough, the story means fuck all. I can see your point now.

The idea definitely births the story, but the story raises the idea. Something like that?

(This has really become a challenge as to who can come up the best analogies...)

Labor's making the same argument as he did before, so I'm simply going to reply with mine.

........

Then why do you keep reading these three ideas? I agree that the conflicts are ancient and limited. But why do we still put up with them?

Story. Detail. Nuance. That's why.

It's not just what you're saying. It's how you say it.

A stick figure can represent a woman. But we'd both rather see Jaimie McKelvie draw that woman.

Idea is armature. Story is meat, is sinew, is breath, is heaving bosoms, is the motion of the fucking ocean. Idea holds it up. But story, character, detail, is how you see it. They need each other. Idea is sea and story is swell. And what is one without the other but a mute and passive noun and a verb with nothing to move?

Morrison wrote an essay this week. It's an outline. He's capable of better. As an enthusiast of his bright ideas, you deserve better. He's capable of better.

Art isn't a what. It's a how and it's a why. It's variation. Bad story IS a machine. Good story is seamless. It's part of the idea. It doesn't just hide it. I've said it once, I've said it a million time. Don't tell me your idea. Show me your idea. Story illuminates idea. It brings credence. What is an idea if you can't see it? If you want me to believe it, you better paint it in the best light possible. Activate it.

Ask for a little bit more.

......

Yes, idea is the root of story. But to simply call story a mechanism to dispense an idea is to spit in the face of artists and anyone who cares about quality. I believe we are in agreement that quality is preferable to quantity, yes?

[labor_days]

Absolutely, but I guess I was interpreting your comments as if the idea is good enough, the story means fuck all. I can see your point now.

The idea definitely births the story, but the story raises the idea. Something like that?

Basically. This is why I regard story & plot as mechanisms or gears, fr lack of a better descriptor, in service of something larger and exciting.

Seeing your idea is what lights my imagination on fire. And so on, and so on.

[horatio616]

Superman Beyond isn't half as bewildering as the average issue of Doom Patrol. The difference is that the characters in DP, like Crazy Jane and Cliff Steele, related to each other in real way. In SB, the characters explain things and exclaim things to each other, but none of the dialogue feels like human beings talking to one another. It's all exposition. Smart exposition, yes, but it's just a PhD in astrophysics removed from 80s Chris Claremont.

[labor_days]

Paper, a lot of what you said is merely a matter of aesthetics.

Unless you write stories with no hook or idea in mind, I don't see how you can say story is not in service to the Idea.


I believe we are in agreement that quality is preferable to quantity, yes?

Yeah.

[aerodynamics]

This scenario hurts my brain.

BUT, I shall take a guess.

The force of your movement would move such light particles (like molecules) out of the way. Think of water displacement...your movements would displace the particles.

Huzzah! Hypothetical-hopscotch!

As I see it, "time stopped" means "all movement stopped". Consider the following: if Superman were the only non-frozen entity in a time-frozen universe, but he could move things (such as air, for instance) then he could gradually get all sorts of things moving again, effectively negating the supposed stopping of time.

Furthermore (and someone please please correct me if I'm getting my physics wrong), all of the electromagnetic interactions that are essential to the kinetic effects of bodies on other bodies are processes which can only take place over a span of time. In other words, it seems that phenomena such as friction and gravity would be nonexistant in frozen time.

[paper]

Superman Beyond isn't half as bewildering as the average issue of Doom Patrol. The difference is that the characters in DP, like Crazy Jane and Cliff Steele, related to each other in real way. In SB, the characters explain things and exclaim things to each other, but none of the dialogue feels like human beings talking to one another. It's all exposition. Smart exposition, yes, but it's just a PhD in astrophysics removed from 80s Chris Claremont.

Exactly. It's like a cold reading of a script. Actors are just reading words. They're not living them.

Each panel might as well feature Superman, Ultraman, and an intern standing in for Captain Marvel (who's on vacation) sitting around a folding table with styrofoam cups and scripts.

[esophagus]

If the idea is the machine and the story is the gears that make up the machine I think its fairly safe to say that Morrison is more or less a man with a handheld loom trying to make more product than the goddamn Wal-Mart. He is spinning pure gold with his loom, but he's still using a loom. Morrison needs the proper tools (10 issues to his every 3-5) to be able to flesh out his brilliance, but that isn't going to stop me from picking up all the shit he is putting down.

[labor_days]

Superman Beyond isn't half as bewildering as the average issue of Doom Patrol. The difference is that the characters in DP, like Crazy Jane and Cliff Steele, related to each other in real way.

I found Superman's motivation ad the motivation of the others perfectly understandable (believable) and in keeping with their personage.

Superman being a fairly determined guy in the face of the impossible. The others likewise being variations of Superman determination but motivated in different ways.

In SB, the characters explain things and exclaim things to each other, but none of the dialogue feels like human beings talking to one another.
I did not feel this way. But I would not expect these characters to casually discuss the events or mull about wondering what to do as the bounds of their existence and sanity are stretched..., um, beyond human capacity.

It's all exposition. Smart exposition, yes, but it's just a PhD in astrophysics removed from 80s Chris Claremont.

This was a problem I had a few times in the issue. Somethings were rushed through with a lot of text telling you things you can clearly see on the page. It did feel very bronze age in that way.

[bgavino]

I have no love for Geo-force. It's really not about "this is a good character, this is not." It's about the story on the page. This is about a man grieving, set upon revenge. I thought it was far superior to Meltzer's JLA work. Maybe because it's a small, atmospheric, character piece.

Yea it's not about whether or not Geo-Force is a good character but for me to like the book I am reading I have to like the main character and I do not like Geo-Force. He is a boring dull character with no dimension. Further more I read his stuff in JLA but did Geo-Force ever mention going after Deathstroke before this issue? I mean I'm sure he hated Deathstroke I just felt that his really really intense hatred kind of came out of left field.


What's the point of the book? What's the point of any book? This was to show one man's actions in grief.

What I meant was why was this labeled as a Final Crisis tie in? Besides the little breaks with all the other characters, which I liked by the way, this served no purpose in the big Final Crisis picture.


I loved subtle twists that added nuance to the book. Did he kill himself as part of his plan? Was he just trying to kill himself and got lucky with the sword at the end? Did he really just "beat" Deathstroke as Jeff thinks? Or did he just miss the killing strike? It creates a lot of uncertainty with Geo-Force going forward. It gives him a new character dynamic.

I disagree with this completely. I don't think there was any twists. I think the book is clear. I Think he tried to kill himself and as he said saw an unexpected oppurtunity. Plus did he really beat Deathstroke at all. He got the crap kicked out of him and then got lucky with the sword at the end. Seriously this book would have been so much better if Deathstroke would have just killed him.

I also like the little character vignettes surrounding the main story. superfluous? Maybe. But they really added to the tone and set the atmosphere of the book. I really enjoyed this one.

They were cool.

Bryan

[horatio616]

If the idea is the machine and the story is the gears that make up the machine I think its fairly safe to say that Morrison is more or less a man with a handheld loom trying to make more product than the goddamn Wal-Mart. He is spinning pure gold with his loom, but he's still using a loom. Morrison needs the proper tools (10 issues to his every 3-5) to be able to flesh out his brilliance, but that isn't going to stop me from picking up all the shit he is putting down.

A loom of fate, perhaps?

Really, I just wish he'd slow down and let the characters breathe a little bit. I know he can do it. He did it in JLA and New X-Men. I know he has all these ideas he wants to get out, but it hurts the execution of his ideas.

[paper]

Seriously this book would have been so much better if Deathstroke would have just killed him.



No way, dude. The journey would be pointless if he'd died. That closeup of Geo-Force lying in bed, unable to speak, listening to his friend lump on the praise...unable to protest? That's the point of the book. At least that arc.

[esophagus]

A loom of fate, perhaps?

Really, I just wish he'd slow down and let the characters breathe a little bit. I know he can do it. He did it in JLA and New X-Men. I know he has all these ideas he wants to get out, but it hurts the execution of his ideas.Definitely. His one failing is the way he crams in ideas (thus my 10 issues to 5 now suggestion).

[aerodynamics]

Just now, in a misguided effort to appear to be 'hip' I pushed my 4D glasses up onto my forehead, somewhat in the manner of the young 'Houser' doctor from the television program, whereupon they became immediately smeared with my head-grease.

Alas, the resultant distortion has downgraded my vision capacity to a paltry 1D.

Oh, yes. I'm wearing them all of the time, now.

[horatio616]

Definitely. His one failing is the way he crams in ideas (thus my 10 issues to 5 now suggestion).

The difference between he and Moore--both guys who love the big idea--is that Moore is better at the character moment. If you read Moore's more high concept books like Promethea or Top 10, you'll still find naturalistic dialogue and relatable characters.

Speaking of Moore, Top 10 is back but without him. Back in the day that was my favorite comic. I'll give this new incarnation a go, mainly because Gene Ha is on the art, which I take as a vote of confidence.

[dave-accampo]

I've been following this thread at work, but I haven't been able to post until now. Paper, wow, great post, man. I could not agree with you more.

Now I'm gonna see if I can add any fuel to the fire.

What is an idea? It's just a thing. A concept. Why do we like ideas? Because they excite the imagination. We like new ideas because we link them to our own lives and they makes us FEEL something. The concept of a multiverse doesn't interest us because many is more interesting than one. The concept excites us because it suggests possibilities. We get excited.

And, thus, my point: The Idea is merely a delivery mechanism for FEELING. and it's only ONE mechanism within a story.

Do you know why most people read stories? They read stories to be entertained. What entertains people? FEELING something. We like horror movies because we like to taste that fear. We like comedies because they make us laugh. These stories all point at the Truth of human existence, reveal it to us, and make us FEEL. Stories are a shortcut to Life and a chance to re-examine it.

If you really just wanted the idea, you would simply read scientific journals. We, on this board, do not only read scientific journals. We can call the story a delivery mechanism, but the fact is that we PREFER it. We chose this mechanism over stodgy scientific ramblings because a "story" makes us FEEL something. It delivers the idea to us a function of the human experience.

Ideas are dime a dozen. Ideas are easy. And Morrisons' big ideas in Superman Beyond aren't even that big. They're pseudo science gleaned from scientific journals and concepts, rehashed from his old Animal Man run, and filtered through a new story. And I'm not even saying this to bash Morrison. I love it when he hits me with a bold new idea that awes me. I thought there were some fun bits in this issue, but mostly it seemed like territory he's already covered.


And listen: Morrison knows that stories aren't just delivery vehicles. Or he wouldn't have given Superman stakes. He wouldn't have put Lois in the hospital and had the Monitor woman offer him a solution. His feelings drive the whole story. If it was all about the ideas, then Morrison is being incredibly disingenuous with his opening scene. which becomes nothing more than the pizza boy knocking on teh door at the beginning of a porno flick.

Morrison's better than this. He knows it's not just about the ideas. He knows we read to feel. Animal Man, in particular, was a fantastic blend of character and ideas. Those stories made you FEEL for Buddy Baker, and the ideas within...? They all served to make you think about your own life, your own existence, all via Buddy. The Idea serviced the Story, which was the vehicle to provoke human emotion.

[dave-accampo]

What I meant was why was this labeled as a Final Crisis tie in? Besides the little breaks with all the other characters, which I liked by the way, this served no purpose in the big Final Crisis picture. It's set during the eve of the Final Crisis, so thematically it's about how the heroes spend they're last moment. It's not a chapter of FC -- it's a tie-in, so thematically, that works.

I disagree with this completely. I don't think there was any twists. I think the book is clear. I Think he tried to kill himself and as he said saw an unexpected oppurtunity. Plus did he really beat Deathstroke at all. He got the crap kicked out of him and then got lucky with the sword at the end. Seriously this book would have been so much better if Deathstroke would have just killed him. Oh, the book's not clear at all. Did Brion attempt to commit suicide because he was weak, or did he KNOW it would make Deathstroke remember his son's own throat being slashed? Was it all part of his plan to draw him close? Did he BEAT Deathstroke or was he actually trying to KILL Deathstroke, which he then failed to do? His friend Jeff gives him the benefit of the doubt, believes that brion had the conscious CHOICE not to kill, but the look on Geo-force's face tells me it's not so clear-cut.

[neb]

Huzzah! Hypothetical-hopscotch!

As I see it, "time stopped" means "all movement stopped". Consider the following: if Superman were the only non-frozen entity in a time-frozen universe, but he could move things (such as air, for instance) then he could gradually get all sorts of things moving again, effectively negating the supposed stopping of time.

Furthermore (and someone please please correct me if I'm getting my physics wrong), all of the electromagnetic interactions that are essential to the kinetic effects of bodies on other bodies are processes which can only take place over a span of time. In other words, it seems that phenomena such as friction and gravity would be nonexistant in frozen time.

Um...

It's comics? :o

[neb]

So, I just finished Superman: Beyond. It was interesting, and I definitely need some time to digest it, possibly read it again before I grasp the whole thing. I really liked the feel of this book. I can't really explain it, but it felt good to read. It was just a lot to absorb. Also, I"m a bit disappointed that the 3D mucked up the colors in the 3D panels. It would have been boss to see this art in full color.

I will say this: It was not garbage.

[aerodynamics]

Um...

It's comics? :o

Drat. I was having so much fun.

Engaging willful suspension of disbelief ... NOW!

[timmywood-]

Man I haven't bought my comics yet. I can't weigh in completely this girthy discussion.

But I will say this. An idea is nothing without a good story. You have to have a good story first and foremost otherwise like someone said already "You should just right an essay." Now what makes a good story is subjective to different people.

I can't wait to get my books.

[humphrey-lee]

Terrible AND awful. That's some rage in the cage.

This is the one Humphrey was all about, yeah?

Different strokes is all. Gunga's the first person that I know of that took it on my recommendation and didn't like it. I'll even send him the $3 back I feel pretty bad about that, but otherwise, I haven't really seen any of the dozen or so peeps I chat with online that bought it file much of a complaint.

[luthor]

I'll even send him the $3 back...

In that case, I bought 400 copies of it based on your recommendation and I thought it stunk...you can make the cheque payable to...


:D


I actually did read it and it wasn't a book I would like but I see why some people would. I wish it had been black and white, I think that would've added a lot to the feel of it. As I told Gunga after I read it, it reminded me a lot of the Tool song Rosetta Stoned.

[oh_caroline]

If it was all about the ideas, then Morrison is being incredibly disingenuous with his opening scene. which becomes nothing more than the pizza boy knocking on teh door at the beginning of a porno flick.



This is an wonderfully apt metaphor and I plan to steal it as often as possible.

Well said!

[paper]

Dave makes a really good argument for 'Feeling' as the impetus for 'Idea'. Very cool.

Is story a mechanism? Yes. But to describe it as merely the gears and workings of an idea engine is simply crass and offensive. I agree with Dave that ideas are a dime a dozen. And even the greatest ideas owe everything to the voice and articulation of a 'storyteller.' Whether that story was a piece of legislation, an elevator pitch, a painting, a speech, a term paper, or a pick up line.

[deadspace]

Golly was some of the worst comics I've ever read. It was terrible and awful.

Wow, I thought Golly was fantastic!

Are you sure you're not mixing it up with Helm? That was terrible and awful and really really bad.

[deadspace]

Yeah....Guerillas was a mistake. For me at least.

Really? Man, I really enjoyed Guerillas. Seriously, I was gripped all the way through. I nearly didn't get it cos of the price but the part of me that loves trying new stuff won and I'm glad.

[paper]

I'm going to try Guerillas again. First time through, it didn't really get me. It felt like a rehash of every other war drama that came before it. But I'm going to give it another chance.

[deadspace]

Well maybe it was newer to me cos I've not read any war stuff before. I don't think it wins lots of points for innovation in story telling method (eg the parallel stories going on) but I do think it was executed really well.

It's a shame the 'cliff-hanger' at the end wasn't a surprise though.

[bgavino]

Read Superman beyond I thought it was ok but I thought the 4-d stuff was distracting. The glasses kept falling off and they hurt my eyes so I just read it without them and I still liked it, though I recognzie alot of the storty elements from Morrisons Animal Man, which in a way was kind of cool. I juist hope Morrison doesn't show up in the next issue.

Read Rogues Revenge and wow what a great read. I just love how Johns handles the Rogues. I would love to see an ongoing about the rogues written by Johns. The issues was amazing though the art by Kollins was great and it's so great to see these guys working together again on these characters. Also read JSA by Johns and finaly we get some movement and the movement was great. After a couple of slow issues the series picks up again and I like where the story is going. Johns had a great week this week. I think for me these two issues tie for POW great stuff.

Bryan

[deadspace]

All this talk of Superman Beyond is making me more than curious, even though most people are saying it was ok at best.

Can it be read as a stand-alone story or do you have to know other stuff that's going on? Pretend you're answering to someone who has never read a comic before :p

[paper]

I think you could read it as a standalone.

[paper]

Actually, list books that you like and maybe what you want out of a superhero book and we'll try this recommendation thing again. This is an intriguing challenge.

[deadspace]

Actually, list books that you like and maybe what you want out of a superhero book and we'll try this recommendation thing again. This is an intriguing challenge.

Oh god... intriguing is one way of putting it... :o

My favourites would be, well, a lot of Vertigo stuff like DMZ, Fables, House of Mystery, Y The Last Man, and quite a lot of stuff that has come out of Image recently like War Heroes, Golly, I Kill Giants... all of those just have one issue out but I really liked them! I love Fell... Criminal... Powers, loved We3, Pride of Baghdad, Ex Machina, obviously the Watchmen. Kick-Ass is awesome cos I think it is hilarious! I LOVE Strangers in Paradise and Echo. Echo is one of my faves just now. I really enjoyed Locke & Key, though the last issue was a bit of a let down. I'm loving the current Hellboy arc though the 2nd issue was more a 3/5 while the first issue was a solid 5/5. I read the 1st trade though and thought it was... a bit meh.

Oh, obviously I think Dead Space is amazing but NOT because of the monsters. Apparently people were writing to Antony Johnston saying "where are the monsters!?" and I don't understand that cos the series had been amazing due to the tense atmosphere that had been created... the fear and the mystery is what I loved about it really.

I've no interest in big fights... or build-ups to big fights whether it's between people or monsters. Mystery is good. I really appreciate good dialogue and really getting to know the characters (examples: anything Terry Moore or Brian K Vaughan touch). A certain amount of depth can be good - I think DMZ is a good example of that - any kind of political, social commentary really, but it can be subtle.

I have a bit of an attraction to dark themes - anything nihilistic and/or misanthropic so long as it's well written. I really enjoyed The Killing Joke but it does have its flaws.

In terms of what I want from a superhero, I've no idea. I read a bit about Daredevil on wikipedia last night and it was just the same old story of something happening (usually an accident of some sort) that gives a guy special powers and then something else happening that makes this guy want to bring the world to justice. I was interested in Batman's history but that kind of thing was new to me then. Do they all basically have the same kind of origin? Ok, so Batman didn't have an accident and doesnt have superpowers but he's still motivated by the death of his parents. Are they all like that?

But anyway, even if the origin bores me there might be stories that interest me.

Part of me thinks I don't want to read about a superhero at all, rather I want to read about a villain like the Joker... and where the villian wins and it's good cos I'd be rooting for him/her. Does that make me... wrong? :D

This is quite a challenge by the way. All my life I have even avoided superhero movies like the plague. I've not seen any of them. It's only from reading comics that I'm starting to get curious.

I do everything backwards.

[gobo]

Damn you've read pretty much everything I'd suggest.

I guess if you want a series about villains you could try Wanted?

Sounds like Local might be interesting to you too based on Ron talking about it, maybe Love and Rockets? (the last two are stuff I haven't read yet but have been meaning to)

[optimus187prime]

Id throw The Damned in there.

[denmmurray]

Read Rogues Revenge and wow what a great read. I just love how Johns handles the Rogues. I would love to see an ongoing about the rogues written by Johns. The issues was amazing though the art by Kollins was great and it's so great to see these guys working together again on these characters. Also read JSA by Johns and finaly we get some movement and the movement was great. After a couple of slow issues the series picks up again and I like where the story is going. Johns had a great week this week. I think for me these two issues tie for POW great stuff.

Bryan

You should listen to the Word Balloon interview with Van Sciver. He talks about Flash Rebirth and I actually started drooling because this book is going to be so good.

[deadspace]

Damn you've read pretty much everything I'd suggest.

I guess if you want a series about villains you could try Wanted?

Sounds like Local might be interesting to you too based on Ron talking about it, maybe Love and Rockets? (the last two are stuff I haven't read yet but have been meaning to)

I heard the movie of Wanted was rubbish so that put me off the book. Is the book good?

I've been looking at picking up both Local and Love and Rockets (I'm watching L&R on ebay). Where does Ron talk about Local?

Id throw The Damned in there.

I've not even heard of that. *goes googling* Ok, that sounds alright, I'll look out for that too.

Thanks!

[gobo]

I heard the movie of Wanted was rubbish so that put me off the book. Is the book good?

I've been looking at picking up both Local and Love and Rockets (I'm watching L&R on ebay). Where does Ron talk about Local?
The movie was drastically different in terms of plot and depth compared to the book. There's also no Loom of Fate in the book. From what I've heard is the screenwriters wrote the movie after the first issue of Wanted came out and after that it is definitely drastically different. Whether it's good or not depends on how you view you standard Millar fare.

Ron picked Local #12 as his pick of the week a few weeks ago, I'm not sure exactly how long but I feel in the last few months.

[optimus187prime]

I heard the movie of Wanted was rubbish so that put me off the book. Is the book good?
I liked it but it is definitely a light read. It is a summer block buster action movie on the page, but it is absolutely better than the film.


I've not even heard of that. *goes googling* Ok, that sounds alright, I'll look out for that too.

Thanks!
Check out the wiki or something but I really enjoyed it. I like "Gangster/Mobster" stories so adding demons was right up my alley. It only has one trade out and it is not a shared universe.

[oh_caroline]

This is quite a challenge by the way. All my life I have even avoided superhero movies like the plague. I've not seen any of them. It's only from reading comics that I'm starting to get curious.

I do everything backwards.

Starting with the better superhero origin movies is really not a bad introduction to the concepts and characters. (I'd put Iron Man and Batman Begins at the top of the list; the first X-men is interesting if flawed). Or 'Batman: the Animated Series.'

As far as comics, have you tried Gotham Central? On one level, it's DCU porn, but it also works fine for someone new to the universe. (I found, anyway . . .) There are a few characters whose backgrounds it would help to know, but you should still be able to read it pretty fresh.

[humphrey-lee]

Oh god... intriguing is one way of putting it... :o

My favourites would be, well, a lot of Vertigo stuff like DMZ, Fables, House of Mystery, Y The Last Man, and quite a lot of stuff that has come out of Image recently like War Heroes, Golly, I Kill Giants... all of those just have one issue out but I really liked them! I love Fell... Criminal... Powers, loved We3, Pride of Baghdad, Ex Machina, obviously the Watchmen. Kick-Ass is awesome cos I think it is hilarious! I LOVE Strangers in Paradise and Echo. Echo is one of my faves just now. I really enjoyed Locke & Key, though the last issue was a bit of a let down. I'm loving the current Hellboy arc though the 2nd issue was more a 3/5 while the first issue was a solid 5/5. I read the 1st trade though and thought it was... a bit meh.




Well, he's more anti-hero than Superhero, but John Constantine still fits the bill if you ask me. Why don't you read some Hellblazer?

It looks like you want the more "niche" heroes of the genre, not the tried and true Capes and Tights guys, so there's always stuff like Hellboy like you said, maybe Atomic Robo, or stuff like Wormwood Gentleman Corpse.

I'm trying to think of some more... "dirty" or atypical superheroics you might like, but it'll have to wait til I get back from work. Sorry.

[euchre0]

The movie was drastically different in terms of plot and depth compared to the book. There's also no Loom of Fate in the book.
And there's no depth to the book ;)

[paper]

Has anyone recommended The Hood yet? Brian K Vaughan book about a villain in the Marvel U. It's an origin story from the villain's POV.

[gungadin]

So I gotta give it up to JSA. I feel like it's hitting the Captain America thing where it's just so good we're not appreciating it. But God damn what a comic.

Also, Black Panther rocked my world. And Mighty Avengers was a GREAT character study of Hank Pym. And New Avengers was great in its study of Reed Richards as a character... Really, really great stuff in there. Genius use of Reed.

And USM is still fantastic.

I feel like Darrel.

[gungadin]

Has anyone recommended The Hood yet? Brian K Vaughan book about a villain in the Marvel U. It's an origin story from the villain's POV.

I heard it wasn't good? One of the weakest things Vaughan's ever written? Change my mind?

[paper]

It was fun. I'm not gonna defend it to my grave, but I liked it. It goes a little off the rails at the end because it was cancelled. The weakest thing BKV ever wrote is stronger than the best thing Loeb or Millar ever wrote.

[optimus187prime]

I heard it wasn't good? One of the weakest things Vaughan's ever written? Change my mind?

I personally enjoyed it quite a bit, it was a departure from the typical origin stories. In the end I didnt like Parker Robbins but I was intrested in seeing what would transpire. I really dug the art as well. Not mind blowing but worthy of a read, especially if they use the Hood more after SI.

[gobo]

It was fun. I'm not gonna defend it to my grave, but I liked it. It goes a little off the rails at the end because it was cancelled. The weakest thing BKV ever wrote is stronger than the best thing Loeb or Millar ever wrote.
Sure if you care about things like storytelling

[paper]

Sure if you don't care about things like storytelling

Do I need to repost my pro-story rant?

What part of my argument are you in disagreement with? The Hood being good? Or the Loeb or Millar thing?

[gobo]

</sarcasm>

SHIT I fucked that up anyway... I don't know how the "don't" got in there... Let's pretend I got it right the first time everyone.

[paper]

My mind: blown.

[gungadin]

I'm gonna say that Kick Ass and Wolverine weren't bad this week... But they were much more meh than the last issues. Maybe it's the Millar effect...

[optimus187prime]

Millar effect...

Explain, please.

[paper]

The Millar Effect - Imagine that a great story is an erection. Imagine that you have a magic pill to give you a fleshy Tower of Babel, a veritable citadel of virility. That pill is called High Concept. After a few issues, people realize that the tower is less Babel and more Pisa. And the reader utters those harrowing words, "That's it?"

[paper]

Mixed Metaphor - Imagine that my analogies are a goldfish in the Korean War. That goldfish has a backpack. And in that backpack is a staircase which leads to an Arby's in Missouri. And the guy working the drive thru is morality. Ironically, he can't swim.

[optimus187prime]

The Millar Effect - Imagine that a great story is an erection. Imagine that you have a magic pill to give you a fleshy Tower of Babel, a veritable citadel of virility. That pill is called High Concept. After a few issues, people realize that the tower is less Babel and more Pisa. And the reader utters those harrowing words, "That's it?"

Ahh, good analogy, now explain quantum physics using the female anatomy.

[deadspace]

It is a summer block buster action movie on the page


Yikes. Sounds like my idea of comic hell.

Well, he's more anti-hero than Superhero, but John Constantine still fits the bill if you ask me. Why don't you read some Hellblazer?

It looks like you want the more "niche" heroes of the genre, not the tried and true Capes and Tights guys, so there's always stuff like Hellboy like you said, maybe Atomic Robo, or stuff like Wormwood Gentleman Corpse.


Hmmm, Hellblazer sounds like it could be to my liking... I'll check it out. And I've been meaning to check out Wormwood: Gentleman Corpse because I love Ben Templesmith. Did you mean that though or Garth Ennis' Chronicles of Wormwood? I'm interested in it too.

I read a bit of Wolverine: Enemy of the State in Borders today and I thought it was pretty good (I'm becoming a fan of Mark Millar) but I've a feeling it was going in the direction of universe stuff, well in terms of X-Men anyway and I don't know anything about X-Men... and I'm not that interested either. I'm attracted to Wolverine though... I think he reminds me a bit of Bigby and I love Bigby! :D

Oh I also loved Garth Ennis' introduction where he said he hated superhero comics! hehe. (does he really?)

I'm gonna say that Kick Ass and Wolverine weren't bad this week... But they were much more meh than the last issues. Maybe it's the Millar effect...

Nooooooooo! Kick Ass was my POW cos it was so so fuckin funny. It was like... a joke a minute! And it makes me feel strange saying that because everyone else is either saying it was 'ok' or 'omg so fucked up'. Am I the only one who sees the comedy genius in this comic?

Starting with the better superhero origin movies is really not a bad introduction to the concepts and characters. (I'd put Iron Man and Batman Begins at the top of the list; the first X-men is interesting if flawed). Or 'Batman: the Animated Series.'

As far as comics, have you tried Gotham Central?

I've seen Batman Begins and The Dark Knight - I guess I just don't really class them as superhero movies cos... well none of them have any superpowers.

Is Iron Man good? Would someone who doesn't like mindless action movies like it?

But yeah, Gotham Central is something that I've been interested in picking up before so I probably will at some stage. There are just a pile of Joker stories I'm wanting to read first. (I've kinda caught the Joker bug from the Dark Knight!)

[paper]

Iron Man is a great movie. Very funny. Not mindless.

[deadspace]

I've just googled and found that Ennis does apparently hate superheroes. That is awesome! Are there any other comic writers any of you know of who hate superhero comics?

I knew The Boys was anti-superhero... but I didn't know he really did hate them. Love it! :D

[gungadin]

Nooooooooo! Kick Ass was my POW cos it was so so fuckin funny. It was like... a joke a minute! And it makes me feel strange saying that because everyone else is either saying it was 'ok' or 'omg so fucked up'. Am I the only one who sees the comedy genius in this comic?

I see the comedy genius and I didn't hate it. It just fell a little flat. It really lacked the sorta... power that the third issue had. Yeah, it was violent, and the kid was cute, but this story keeps going nowhere. It feels like a series of vignettes in this person's life, and they're all related to him, but we're not seeing anything that's driving the story forward...

But that's just what I feel...

[paper]

I've just googled and found that Ennis does apparently hate superheroes. That is awesome! Are there any other comic writers any of you know of who hate superhero comics?

I knew The Boys was anti-superhero... but I didn't know he really did hate them. Love it! :D

Ugghh.......

[gungadin]

I've just googled and found that Ennis does apparently hate superheroes. That is awesome! Are there any other comic writers any of you know of who hate superhero comics?

I knew The Boys was anti-superhero... but I didn't know he really did hate them. Love it! :D

That's one of the reasons I try to stay away from most of Garth Ennis's work. It's not that I think he's wrong to hate superheroes, it's just not something I'm interested in reading...

I did like Preacher though... Liked it, didn't love it....

[aerodynamics]

Mixed Metaphor - Imagine that my analogies are a goldfish in the Korean War. That goldfish has a backpack. And in that backpack is a staircase which leads to an Arby's in Missouri. And the guy working the drive thru is morality. Ironically, he can't swim.

Bravissimo.

[optimus187prime]

I love the Boys. I know its ground that has been tread and retread, but it doesnt feel stale. The thing is that Ennis has his own take on things, and he definitely has concrete plans for this series. The more I read the more it ratchets up a notch. What cracks me up is the negitives people express are usually the exact things I see as positives.

[deadspace]

Ugghh.......

Not sure if that was at me or Garth Ennis... or both lol

That's one of the reasons I try to stay away from most of Garth Ennis's work. It's not that I think he's wrong to hate superheroes, it's just not something I'm interested in reading...

I did like Preacher though... Liked it, didn't love it....

I was just really surprised... I mean, it's quite a bold statement given the industry he's in.

Does all his stuff tend to be anti-superhero then? I have a few Preacher trades but just haven't read them yet. Maybe I've had my favourite author on my shelf and not known it. I read the #0 issue of Crossed though and it was utter crap. I like sick stuff when there is a depth to it or when there is something else to the story other than just sick for the sake of sick. Crossed was sick and nothing else ie boring.

[gungadin]

Does all his stuff tend to be anti-superhero then? I have a few Preacher trades but just haven't read them yet. Maybe I've had my favourite author on my shelf and not known it. I read the #0 issue of Crossed though and it was utter crap. I like sick stuff when there is a depth to it or when there is something else to the story other than just sick for the sake of sick. Crossed was sick and nothing else ie boring.

No. Some of his stuff is anti-superhero (like The Authority and The Boys.... I think he did something with The Authority... most people did) but stuff like Preacher didn't address it at all. Preacher has no superheroes and it's just a comic. That "War is Hell" Max miniseries he did had no superheroes.... It's that stuff I'm more interested in, not his "Superheroes are bullshit" bullshit.

But then again, I'm not a huge Garth Ennis fan, he has yet to wow me...

[horatio616]

I've just googled and found that Ennis does apparently hate superheroes. That is awesome! Are there any other comic writers any of you know of who hate superhero comics?

I knew The Boys was anti-superhero... but I didn't know he really did hate them. Love it! :D

Warren Ellis

[paper]

Doesn't B. Clay Moore hate superheroes too?

And...ya know, everything else.

[horatio616]

whoops

[paper]

I wouldn't make a generalization like that. I'm sure some do. Others don't.

I over-intellectualize things, but it's not because i'm a comic fan.

[horatio616]

I wouldn't make a generalization like that. I'm sure some do. Others don't.

I over-intellectualize things, but it's not because i'm a comic fan.

I deleted my post because I didn't want to look like I was pointing fingers. I wasn't, it was more of a rhetorical question.

[deadspace]

Warren Ellis

really?

[deadspace]

I deleted my post because I didn't want to look like I was pointing fingers. I wasn't, it was more of a rhetorical question.

Awww! What did you say?

[paper]

Sort of, yes.

[paper]

For the record I didn't take Horation's post as pointing fingers. It was a fair question.

[deadspace]

I really like Warren Ellis.

Maybe it's ok to not be interested in superheroes but still love comics. I don't feel so much of a weirdo anymore :)

[deadspace]

For the record I didn't take Horation's post as pointing fingers. It was a fair question.

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION?

you're just teasing me now.

[paper]

Something about "comic book readers trying to force intellectualism, perhaps to compensate for something. Blah blah blah I'm an evil dentist."

[deadspace]

Something about "comic book readers trying to force intellectualism, perhaps to compensate for something. Blah blah blah I'm an evil dentist."

Oh? what was it in relation to? can we have a bit of context? :p

[paper]

He was replying to my comment that the Iron Man movie was a fun, intelligent film. Not at all stupid. Maybe I sounded defensive? I was just stating a fact.

[deadspace]

Oh. I still don't understand :(

Did he mean it isn't intellectual? Or that it was unnecessarily intellectual? Or something else? If it's more than just mindless action then I'm interested.

I'll tell you what I hate: anything Jason Statham is in. Have you seen Crank? Dear god...

[paper]

I don't know what he meant. He speaks dentist.

[oh_caroline]

I really like Warren Ellis.

Maybe it's ok to not be interested in superheroes but still love comics. I don't feel so much of a weirdo anymore :)

Warren Ellis has written some excellent superhero comics for somebody who claims to hate the genre. I think he hates bad superhero comics (though he's also written some of them), and he hates the unexamined dominance of a particular genre.

Whenever I hear people talk about Ellis in this context, I think about one of my favorite prose writers, Graham Greene. Greene divided his books into 'novels' which he claimed were serious, and 'entertainments' which he claimed he wrote for money. The thing is, I think some of the 'entertainments' are really fascinating, innovative novels. Occasionally I'll run across a review of a Greene book I love, like "Orient Express," which dismisses the book on the basis that he clearly didn't take it seriously, because he didn't call it a novel, and might even have dismissed it in print. But does that actually mean the book wasn't good, because he said that? (a) Writers aren't the ultimate judges of their own work and (b) writers aren't always completely ingenuous in their public statements.

Not that I would suggest that Warren Ellis is the kind of person who would run his mouth for the sake of saying something inflammatory and getting the Intrawebz riled up. :rolleyes:

ETA: Oh, and, yes, "Iron Man" is a genuinely good movie. Downey's performance is one of the best I've seen in a long time; he completely sells the character, and the movie grows up around him.

[optimus187prime]

Oh. I still don't understand :(

Did he mean it isn't intellectual? Or that it was unnecessarily intellectual? Or something else? If it's more than just mindless action then I'm interested.

I'll tell you what I hate: anything Jason Statham is in. Have you seen Crank? Dear god...
Im not sure what you mean by "intellectual" we are talking about Iron Man here. It is not a mindless action movie either. It is very funny, exciting, and beautiful. Honestly I felt it was light on action for a "Superhero Film".

[paper]

I have little respect for Ellis' stance on the subject or for any writer who wusses out on taking ownership of their work in genre fiction. This is why Michael Chabon is one of my favorite writers and spokesman for genre fiction. He recognizes and embraces the tradition of something like the pulp novel, science fiction, and yes, super hero comics. Good story is good story is good story. Bastardizing genre or speculative fiction is weak. It's a narrow-mindedness I simply don't respect in a fellow writer. And it shows a complete ignorance of the value these kinds of stories have on culture. A force that ripples all the way to 'serious' literature.

[deadspace]

Warren Ellis has written some excellent superhero comics for somebody who claims to hate the genre. I think he hates bad superhero comics (though he's also written some of them), and he hates the unexamined dominance of a particular genre.

Whenever I hear people talk about Ellis in this context, I think about one of my favorite prose writers, Graham Greene. Greene divided his books into 'novels' which he claimed were serious, and 'entertainments' which he claimed he wrote for money. The thing is, I think some of the 'entertainments' are really fascinating, innovative novels. Occasionally I'll run across a review of a Greene book I love, like "Orient Express," which dismisses the book on the basis that he clearly didn't take it seriously, because he didn't call it a novel, and might even have dismissed it in print. But does that actually mean the book wasn't good, because he said that? (a) Writers aren't the ultimate judges of their own work and (b) writers aren't always completely ingenuous in their public statements.

Not that I would suggest that Warren Ellis is the kind of person who would run his mouth for the sake of saying something inflammatory and getting the Intrawebz riled up. :rolleyes:

ETA: Oh, and, yes, "Iron Man" is a genuinely good movie. Downey's performance is one of the best I've seen in a long time; he completely sells the character, and the movie grows up around him.

Is Iron Man still good if you have never read anything about Iron Man ever? Is the movie great on its own?

It goes to show how much I am disinterested in these blockbuster superhero movies - I turned a deaf ear to it immediately. But I like having my mind opened to things and being proven wrong, so I'm going to check it out. Are there any others (other than Batman) that are really good movies? Was Hulk any good? I thought the trailer was good until I realised it was The Incredible Hulk lol

I've really no idea about the personalities of comic writers but I guess if a writer is writing superhero comics yet says they hate superhero comics then they either wrote it for the money or they are telling a wee fib ;-)

[deadspace]

Im not sure what you mean by "intellectual" we are talking about Iron Man here. It is not a mindless action movie either. It is very funny, exciting, and beautiful. Honestly I felt it was light on action for a "Superhero Film".

I dunno... it wasn't me who used the word intellectual first. I was just being nosey and trying to find out what Horatio wrote :p

[deadspace]

I have little respect for Ellis' stance on the subject or for any writer who wusses out on taking ownership of their work in genre fiction. This is why Michael Chabon is one of my favorite writers and spokesman for genre fiction. He recognizes and embraces the tradition of something like the pulp novel, science fiction, and yes, super hero comics. Good story is good story is good story. Bastardizing genre or speculative fiction is weak. It's a narrow-mindedness I simply don't respect in a fellow writer. And it shows a complete ignorance of the value these kinds of stories have on culture. A force that ripples all the way to 'serious' literature.

But is it not ok for a comic writer to genuinely hate superheroes?

[paper]

I've yet to see a good argument against them.

[deadspace]

I've yet to see a good argument against them.

But I could say I've never seen a good argument for them. I could understand someone thinking superheroes are so so boring that they hate them. Cos that's kinda me :o I'm just trying to see if I can change that.

[oh_caroline]

Is Iron Man still good if you have never read anything about Iron Man ever? Is the movie great on its own?


The movie is written with the assumption that you've never heard of Iron Man, because most of the audience hasn't. Yes, it's a good movie on its own.

[ghuschke]

My hyperbolic Superman Beyond review: Fucking garbage

The only thing I thought of after I read this was "I didn't really understand it." and "Man! That 3-D gave me a headache".

[oh_caroline]

But I could say I've never seen a good argument for them. I could understand someone thinking superheroes are so so boring that they hate them. Cos that's kinda me :o I'm just trying to see if I can change that.

A good story is its own argument :o

[paper]

A good story is its own argument :o

Amen.

Saying you hate superhero stories is like saying you hate stories that feature chairs or wolves or the month of October. It's not the tools, it's how you use them.

[oh_caroline]

I have little respect for Ellis' stance on the subject or for any writer who wusses out on taking ownership of their work in genre fiction. This is why Michael Chabon is one of my favorite writers and spokesman for genre fiction. He recognizes and embraces the tradition of something like the pulp novel, science fiction, and yes, super hero comics. Good story is good story is good story. Bastardizing genre or speculative fiction is weak. It's a narrow-mindedness I simply don't respect in a fellow writer. And it shows a complete ignorance of the value these kinds of stories have on culture. A force that ripples all the way to 'serious' literature.

To be fair, most of what I know about Ellis' view on superheroes is secondhand; I haven't read many of his original statements on the subject, but I've read enough of Ellis's statements in general to conclude that he has a bit of the showman, and a lot of the provacoteur (sp??) in his public persona. George Bernard Shaw is famous for saying he hated Shakespeare, but he didn't really; he hated the blind worship of Shakespeare that had a chokehold on British theater in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. I feel like Ellis's professed contempt for the genre is in a similar vein.

Now, am I closer Chabon's view on the subject to Ellis'? Absolutely. I think Chabon's brilliant, and his take on the role of genre is one of the best I've ever read. (Didn't Bendis basically quote it verbatim in one issue of Powers? Am I imagining that?) But I don't think it hurts anything for them both to be part of the conversation.

[deadspace]

The movie is written with the assumption that you've never heard of Iron Man, because most of the audience hasn't. Yes, it's a good movie on its own.

Cool, I'm definitely gonna check it out. Thanks for that :)

Amen.

Saying you hate superhero stories is like saying you hate stories that feature chairs or wolves or the month of October. It's not the tools, it's how you use them.

That's a fair point to an extent. But what if I told you I hated anything that was beyond what could happen in real life? It doesn't necessarily then have to be the fact that I hate superheroes - it's just that superheroes are far-fetched.

Give me some good superheroes stories then. If it's about good stories then I suppose it doen't matter what universe it's set in or what superhero it features.

If some came to you (any of you, not just paper :p) and said they had never read a superhero comic in their life but that their only requirement is: "I want an amazing story" then what would you recommend? Is it possible to read a good superhero story without researching it first? (genuine question btw, not sarcasm)

[paper]

Then that's subjective. I'm not a realist. Impossible just means eventual to me.

[deadspace]

To be fair, most of what I know about Ellis' view on superheroes is secondhand; I haven't read many of his original statements on the subject, but I've read enough of Ellis's statements in general to conclude that he has a bit of the showman, and a lot of the provacoteur (sp??) in his public persona. George Bernard Shaw is famous for saying he hated Shakespeare, but he didn't really; he hated the blind worship of Shakespeare that had a chokehold on British theater in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. I feel like Ellis's professed contempt for the genre is in a similar vein.

Now, am I closer Chabon's view on the subject to Ellis'? Absolutely. I think Chabon's brilliant, and his take on the role of genre is one of the best I've ever read. (Didn't Bendis basically quote it verbatim in one issue of Powers? Am I imagining that?) But I don't think it hurts anything for them both to be part of the conversation.

In a way I can relate to that viewpoint of George Bernard Shaw because you can draw a parallel with it to superhero comics (or to any industry really). It kinda makes me sad that there is stuff being published by Image or smaller publishers that are amazing yet sell a fraction of what Marvel and DC comics sell. Being a bit of a rebel at heart I can see it being quite easy to say "fuck superheroes" or even "fuck Marvel and DC".... though I don't know if anyone has ever said the latter lol

When something is really popular, whether it's Shakespeare or Secret Invasion, you're going to have a proportion of people who buy into it because of the hype rather than due to a genuine love for it. So from that point of view I respect someone standing up and saying something against the direction of the current bandwagon.

[deadspace]

Then that's subjective. I'm not a realist. Impossible just means eventual to me.

Och, what a cop-out :p

Recommend me a good story. What's the best story you've ever read?

[paper]

I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive. I hate Secret Invasion. I'm a Dark Horse guy and I'm always looking for something different. But I don't think that requires snubbing perfectly good superhero comics like Action comics, JSA, Daredevil, All-Star Superman, Guardians of the Galaxy, or Astonishing X-Men (Whedon).

[deadspace]

I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive. I hate Secret Invasion. I'm a Dark Horse guy and I'm always looking for something different. But I don't think that requires snubbing perfectly good superhero comics like Action comics, JSA, Daredevil, All-Star Superman, Guardians of the Galaxy, or Astonishing X-Men (Whedon).

Are you the big Hellboy fan on here?

Why do you hate Secret Invasion? (I don't even know what it is lol so you won't offend me :D)

[paper]

You need to explain how something like Hellboy is immune to your prejudice towards improbably event storytelling. Hellboy and BPRD are my favorite books and you said you are enjoying the current arc. It is by no means realistic.

[paper]

Coincidence.

Heh, yes, I'm one of the big Hellboy fans.

Secret Invasion is the big event at Marvel right now. I'm not enjoying it because the pacing is horrendous and the story is all over the place, dominating many, many titles. It's self indulgent and boring. Plenty of people like it, but it just isn't working for me.

[optimus187prime]

Im on the like it side with Secret Invasion. The pacing is off, but I have a feeling it will read better in trade. My favorite comic is 100 Bullets. Although there are sooo many other comics that are right up there.

[horatio616]

Ellis's Stormwatch and The Authority are some of the most fun superhero books I've ever read. Most of Ellis's mainstream stuff I could take or leave.

[horatio616]

In a way I can relate to that viewpoint of George Bernard Shaw because you can draw a parallel with it to superhero comics (or to any industry really). It kinda makes me sad that there is stuff being published by Image or smaller publishers that are amazing yet sell a fraction of what Marvel and DC comics sell. Being a bit of a rebel at heart I can see it being quite easy to say "fuck superheroes" or even "fuck Marvel and DC".... though I don't know if anyone has ever said the latter lol

When something is really popular, whether it's Shakespeare or Secret Invasion, you're going to have a proportion of people who buy into it because of the hype rather than due to a genuine love for it. So from that point of view I respect someone standing up and saying something against the direction of the current bandwagon.

I try not to read my comics with that viewpoint. It's hard to enjoy them like that. You've just got to let go and not hold a grudge against something just because it's popular. I've been buying a lot of books I never would have bought a few years ago, a lot of it mainstream superhero stuff. I read them with an open mind, and, yeah, I get stinkers every once in awhile, but more often I'm surprised by what I find myself liking.

[deadspace]

You need to explain how something like Hellboy is immune to your prejudice towards improbably event storytelling. Hellboy and BPRD are my favorite books and you said you are enjoying the current arc. It is by no means realistic.

But who says I'm wanting realistic stuff? There was an "if" in my previous post about wanting stuff true to life :p

Joking aside, if you had spoken to me a year ago I would have told you I hated anything (books or films) that were impossible in real life. I hated fantasy. I hated sci-fi. Since then I've opened my mind a little.

And you know, it's kinda hard to explain how I'm loving the current Hellboy arc given my... well... closed-mindedness. Maybe the story is written so well that I am so totally engaged that I feel it is real? On the pages it feels real. Maybe that's what I'm looking for? Something to feel real, regardless of whether it could happen in real life or not. The problem with that is it's pretty subjective.

I want to believe in the characters and I want to feel what they feel. I want to be so toally engaged in what I'm reading that I forget where I am. When you strip it down to that, I can compare Hellboy to Strangers in Paradise. Does that make any sense?

[paper]

Sure, it makes sense. It means you like good story. And that transcends genre.

[humphrey-lee]

But who says I'm wanting realistic stuff? There was an "if" in my previous post about wanting stuff true to life :p

Joking aside, if you had spoken to me a year ago I would have told you I hated anything (books or films) that were impossible in real life. I hated fantasy. I hated sci-fi. Since then I've opened my mind a little.

And you know, it's kinda hard to explain how I'm loving the current Hellboy arc given my... well... closed-mindedness. Maybe the story is written so well that I am so totally engaged that I feel it is real? On the pages it feels real. Maybe that's what I'm looking for? Something to feel real, regardless of whether it could happen in real life or not. The problem with that is it's pretty subjective.

I want to believe in the characters and I want to feel what they feel. I want to be so toally engaged in what I'm reading that I forget where I am. When you strip it down to that, I can compare Hellboy to Strangers in Paradise. Does that make any sense?

You might be well suited to try out Starman in trade. Only problem with that is that some of them are out of print and there's no reason for you to be just "trying something out" with the $50 HC of it that's out of the first sixth of the series.

[neb]

This is, by far, the most intense weekly discussion thread.

Is there room for this comment?

Nova was awesome, and it's nice to see some more relevant tie-ins that are damn fun to read.

[horatio616]

This is, by far, the most intense weekly discussion thread.

Is there room for this comment?

Nova was awesome, and it's nice to see some more relevant tie-ins that are damn fun to read.

But was it metatextual? That's all we wanna know! ;)

[neb]

But was it metatextual? That's all we wanna know! ;)

It was so meta it thought about itself as it was thinking about writing itself.

[neb]

I just got done reading Superman/Batman from last week with the mini heroes and it was FUCKING AWESOME! Holy shit, that was so much fun. I'm so onboard for this arc. Seriously, go buy it. Immediately.

[horatio616]

It was so meta it thought about itself as it was thinking about writing itself.

I just drew a picture of Batman looking at a computer monitor with me laughing at your text on it.

[neb]

So, Superman...it was, uh, good? I don't know what it is, but Robinson is just not vibing with me on this story. I have no context for Atlas, the Lana Lang scene seemed to come out of nowhere, and really, I don't want to read a big punching fest, which 90% of this issue is.

Also, the art, while good here and there, had moments where it looked fugly. For reals.

[dave-accampo]

Good lord, awesome discussion this week.

Re: Chabon, Ellis, et al.

I believe we've had this discussion about Ellis before. I even wanna say it was Humphrey who pointed out that Ellis doesn't "hate" super-heroes the way Ennis does. He hates the slavish devotion to them and the stranglehold they have on the industry.

With that in mind, I believe that's part of the reason he DOES write good super-hero comics. There is definitely a subculture of writers who grew up wanting to write Spider-man, devouring a diet of Marvel continuity, and these writers most often end up producing incestuous marvel porn. Because Ellis has no real reverence for this stuff, he's looking at it from the outside, and he will tend to reinvent things, shuffle things around, etc. This tends to lead to fresher storytelling (although he'll often piss off devotees because it seems like he doesn't share their reverence).

That said, he does often speak of his work-for-hire pragmatically as what it is -- often as favors for editors or to grow his readership. His practice is really no different than someone like Bendis. It's just that Bendis is clearly more enthusiastic about the work-for-hire stuff. And he's got the run of Marvel, so why wouldn't he be?

I'm not sure a straight comparison between Chabon and Ellis is fair. Chabon grew his fanbase outside of comics. Ellis, as a primarily comics writer, has grown his fanbase within the realm of comics, which means he's had to play the game that Kirkman talked about in his manifesto. He had to appeal to the current demographic, the try to get them to follow him. I do give him respect for not ONLY doing that, but for also taking advantage of the web to invent new ways of marketing himself as a writer. The Warren Ellis Forum is still talked about today, and its directly responsible for guys like Anthony Johnston and Matt Fraction getting mainstream work.

[oh_caroline]

When something is really popular, whether it's Shakespeare or Secret Invasion, you're going to have a proportion of people who buy into it because of the hype rather than due to a genuine love for it. So from that point of view I respect someone standing up and saying something against the direction of the current bandwagon.

I feel like I should clarify that an underlying assumption in my metaphor was that, whatever Shaw said, Shakespeare does not actually suck.

Also, nobody should need to pretend to like anything they don't.

But if you're interested in trying something out with minimal backstory, there are places where you can start at the beginning. Watch the "Iron Man" movie. Read the first trade of Ultimate Spider-Man or Ultimate Fantastic Four; those are fairly contemporary books with literally no backstory, because the beginning of the Ultimate line launched the Ultimate Universe. Read anything put out by DC called "Year One."