i hope this installable-game trend continues

[inertianinja]

this is going to be another one of these threads where i get excited about something techy and post about it even though it's not the slightest bit controversial.


switching DVD/BRD's is incredibly annoying now that i've been playing with the alternative. for the past few weeks i've been playing Braid, Siren: Blood Curse, and GT5:P. all downloaded, all re-downloadable, all instantly accessible, all appropriately DRM'ed, all have online instruction manuals. In fact, I would probably never have bought any of the games if I had to travel to a store to buy them....but i was able to sit at my computer, read a review, look over at my PS3, and click "download."

it seems like all traditional media is slowly dipping their toes into the digital distribution pool....with the Xbox unwilling to let go of the ladder (still going to require the disc in november?)

look at the music industry, though! who buys CDs anymore? the water's fine.

[lorddust]

50 years from now, i will still be able to play playstation 1 games on the original system. 50 years from now, i will still be able to listen to my cds. 50 years from now, steam and psn and all that junk will be gone or changed. And all that money you spend on games will mean nothing because you don't have any way of accessing/authenticating those games. When all those DRMed online music retailiers die out, or decide to switch formats, all the music you 'own' will be worthless hex code.

This may not be important to many "modern" gamers, but to those of us who still have our genesis/snes plug into our tv and still return from time to time to play a bit of sonic/mario how it was ment to be played it is a BIG deal.

The ability to Install from a disk and not need the disk is an ok idea (many PC games have been doing it for year) but if you MUST install it to your console, then your better off buying a PC. What was so great about consoles was being able to carry your game over to your friends(or come straight home from the store) and instantly start playing, no install, no wait, instant gratification.

[lik]

as long as it's an option, i dont mind. but d/lable games cannot be resold, traded or given away. as long as they offer both versions, i think it works.

[az0madman]

At first I thought you meant the installs that many PS3 disc-based games have. I don't mind those but optional should be the keyword here.

Anyways, I agree with you with the fact that downloadable games are convenient, however I don't think the switch to full, DVD/BD sized downloadable games would be feasible right now. It still takes me a couple hours just to download a gig-size demo on the PS3, so I'd imagine that one that's taking up 17GB would have me running my PS3 for a day or two. Granted, that's only for PS3. I don't know why my PS3 download speeds are so slow compared to the 360, but I tend to download demos on 360 for that reason. It's an hour or two compared to like 30 minutes. And the last thing I want to do with my 360 is load it with a bunch of games that take up all that space because I only have 20GB on it and no way I'm paying $150 just for 100GB of more space. 360's HDD expansion is not cheap. And I will say, on the topic of cheap, there'd be less video game deals out there with everything being digital purchasing. How many 'buy one get one half off' deals do you see for MP3 downloads or digital movie purchases? Aaand of course, no sell back on video games and all that stuff. I don't sell back anyways, but I know plenty of people do (or else Gamestop wouldn't exist).

Which, I suppose, leads me back to my original comment which wasn't even for this discussion, but optional should be key and I think it'd be just fine.

[gonzooo]

50 years from now, i will still be able to play playstation 1 games on the original system. 50 years from now, i will still be able to listen to my cds. 50 years from now, steam and psn and all that junk will be gone or changed. And all that money you spend on games will mean nothing because you don't have any way of accessing/authenticating those games. When all those DRMed online music retailiers die out, or decide to switch formats, all the music you 'own' will be worthless hex code.
50 years from now no amount of today's DRM will stop anyone from accessing their games and music.

50 years from now he will have spent less money on games, movies and music because he went with the alternative that has the least overhead in terms of transportation (and hassle).

50 years from now the MP3 format will still be playable, because bits and bytes don't just magically scramble themselves when the format is "old".

It's funny how you say you'll still be able to listen to your CDs but MP3s are doomed: They're both digital, they're both just bits and bytes, and they're both set standards that could be succeeded any day by a format that does it better.

By the way, a binary file is at its root expressed in, well... binary.

[inertianinja]

50 years from now, i will still be able to play playstation 1 games on the original system. 50 years from now, i will still be able to listen to my cds. 50 years from now, steam and psn and all that junk will be gone or changed. And all that money you spend on games will mean nothing because you don't have any way of accessing/authenticating those games. When all those DRMed online music retailiers die out, or decide to switch formats, all the music you 'own' will be worthless hex code.

This may not be important to many "modern" gamers, but to those of us who still have our genesis/snes plug into our tv and still return from time to time to play a bit of sonic/mario how it was ment to be played it is a BIG deal.

The ability to Install from a disk and not need the disk is an ok idea (many PC games have been doing it for year) but if you MUST install it to your console, then your better off buying a PC. What was so great about consoles was being able to carry your game over to your friends(or come straight home from the store) and instantly start playing, no install, no wait, instant gratification.

that assumes that you retain and preserve all your original hardware and software, and that it does not deteriorate. if that doesn't happen, you won't find any official support from the manufacturer in terms of the physical media.

however, i don't see any problem with my music in the future.
old games are being recycled in digital format on all three consoles.

i think there are many people like me who don't want to hold on to tons of consoles, controllers, wires, and software boxes.

and, if i was so inclined, i could get an emulator and do some black-hat ROM downloading.

incidentally, i gave up on the PC platform because the hardware changes too often.

[dolson]

I think $15 is the limit I'll spend on a game I have no hope of ever getting my money back for.

For the record, my NES and Turbo Grafx-16 still work perfectly, and those are how old, now? 20 years or so? I think 50 years and still operational isn't too far-fetched. Maybe for the systems with optical drives, sure.

But still, physical discs are something I hope never goes away. It'd be nice if Sony did something like Microsoft where you can install to the drive, but maybe requiring a disc in the drive only every 5 or 10 launches.. So that way it's less annoying than putting a disc in every time, but still means you need to own the disc.

I dunno, it's like renting an apartment versus owning a house.. You can keep paying for your apartment, but your landlord might kick you out at any time, and your money has effectively disappeared. With a house, you own it if you paid for it... Your money results in something tangible.

[satori]

STEAM has been doing this for years, and I like that STEAM games tend not be bloated with system killing DRM.

[inertianinja]

I dunno, it's like renting an apartment versus owning a house.. You can keep paying for your apartment, but your landlord might kick you out at any time, and your money has effectively disappeared. With a house, you own it if you paid for it... Your money results in something tangible.

I totally get where you're coming from. I just don't like to sell games for peanuts; it is only then that i feel like i'm losing money.

i'm content with not trading in a game so long as the experience is worth the money. rather than looking at software like a real estate investment, it's easier for me to look at it like entertainment. like a book, movie, art exhibit, etc. if i get X hours of entertainment out of it or if i get an experience that moves me in some way, it's provided me with the value and i'm willing to forego a minor resale value for the convenience of instant-on :)

[stubadub]

it seems like all traditional media is slowly dipping their toes into the digital distribution pool....with the Xbox unwilling to let go of the ladder (still going to require the disc in november?)

look at the music industry, though! who buys CDs anymore? the water's fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PS3 requires you to have the game discs for the games you install. It's hard to argue against the need of some sort of validation that you've actually purchased the game with it being so easy to borrow/rent game discs. I know I'd install things I didn't buy if I could just borrow a friends game and have permanent access to it, and I currently buy quite a few games.

Downloadable games are a different beast. Each game is tagged to be tied to your gamertag/user id. The moment they open up the PS3 and the 360 to allow installing games that don't come from within their network they will invite us to take advantage.

I do enjoy the convienence of downloading games, but as long as I am in the mindset of not keeping games, and there is a resale market for me to unload them, I'll continue to buy physical media while it is an option.

[dolson]

I totally get where you're coming from. I just don't like to sell games for peanuts; it is only then that i feel like i'm losing money.

i'm content with not trading in a game so long as the experience is worth the money. rather than looking at software like a real estate investment, it's easier for me to look at it like entertainment. like a book, movie, art exhibit, etc. if i get X hours of entertainment out of it or if i get an experience that moves me in some way, it's provided me with the value and i'm willing to forego a minor resale value for the convenience of instant-on :)

Were you a big game renter? I have a feeling you might be. I never really was. Recently I started to because I'd rather waste $10 to rent a game for a week than $60 having not played beyond the demo.. But only because I have limited funds for gaming. Before that, I equated it to staying at a hotel. Kinda expensive, 1/5-1/6 of the full price to rent for a week. So I don't do it often, just when I'm not sure but really wanna try something. :)

The convenience factor is a big thing, so I hope there can be more of a balance. I already own Warhawk, but I've been debating the issue in my head on whether or not to buy the download version simply for convenience's sake. And I haven't even played Warhawk much at all! But I am trying to stick to my guns on this - $15 is my limit for now.

Anything bigger should really have a disc release. And if publishers have a problem with $20 disc-based games, I'm sorry, but there are craptastic games on the Wii like Chicken Shoot and Backyard Hockey that launched at $20-30, and even UMD games like Patapon launched at $20, so there's really no excuse to avoid discs. If Blu-ray discs cost that much to manufacture, then Sony should allow smaller games to ship on DVD discs, since the PS3 knows no real difference.

I really like the games that some are getting dual releases, as this appeases people like you and people like me. And for rare games or games that have gone out of print, a download full of DRM is better than never playing the game.

I think it'll be at least one more generation before we see discs go away, though. PlayStation 5 / Xbox 1080 / Wiiii might ship with no games on retail shelves, but by then the download speeds of home internet connections should be able to handle downloading a game the size of a Blu-ray disc or larger.

Well, I got distracted while writing this, so it probably doesn't make sense, and I don't feel like re-reading it.. So I'm clicking Submit Reply now... Enjoy my verbal vomit... lol

[stubadub]

I totally get where you're coming from. I just don't like to sell games for peanuts; it is only then that i feel like i'm losing money.


That's what ebay is for. List something at 99 cents and people will often get strangely attached to your particular item. I'll find my stuff sometimes selling for more than how much they could pay for the same game used at a Gamestop. Occasionally I'll get more than a new copy would cost. I only keep the games I'm likely to play again. The rest I sell on ebay to fund my new game purchases.

[inertianinja]

Were you a big game renter?

etc

Enjoy my verbal vomit... lol

i edited you down so the quote wouldn't take up the whole page :)


i tried renting games from gamefly - i hated it. i was constantly running the economics in my head. the only way i could get my "money's worth" was to be constantly beating games and sending them back, and when there was nothing new out i would end up playing shovelware just to avoid "losing money." no fun at all.


incidentally i'm also not that big into buying games new. $60 for a game that will be $40 or less just a few weeks later just isn't worth it to me unless it's a AAA title like MGS4 or GTA4.

really all this comes down to is that the convenience and lower price of the download games drove me to play games i otherwise would have blown off

[dolson]

That's what ebay is for. List something at 99 cents and people will often get strangely attached to your particular item. I'll find my stuff sometimes selling for more than how much they could pay for the same game used at a Gamestop. Occasionally I'll get more than a new copy would cost. I only keep the games I'm likely to play again. The rest I sell on ebay to fund my new game purchases.

I don't think I've ever had an item that I listed at $0.01 go for more than an hour without at least two bids. It is definitely a mind trick thing.

I try selling games I don't want to friends, as I hate GameStop/EB Games and their BS.. I usually avoid eBay for selling games, but I did sell a few on there. Buying, on the other hand, I buy a lot. I usually snipe using AuctionStealer. Heh.

[darknessgp]

50 years from now, i will still be able to play playstation 1 games on the original system. 50 years from now, i will still be able to listen to my cds. 50 years from now, steam and psn and all that junk will be gone or changed. And all that money you spend on games will mean nothing because you don't have any way of accessing/authenticating those games. When all those DRMed online music retailiers die out, or decide to switch formats, all the music you 'own' will be worthless hex code...

1) Ever heard of Amazon's music store? No DRM. Apple is starting to move away from DRM. Yahoo and Microsoft both shut down their DRMed music stores... DRM for music seems to be leaving. Plus, it's not like it's really difficult to break DRM.

2) Ever hear of bit rot? In 50 years, those CDs might not be readable, but MP3s stored on a HDD probably will be.

[az0madman]

really all this comes down to is that the convenience and lower price of the download games drove me to play games i otherwise would have blown off

I wouldn't throw price into the mix if you want all games to do this, since I don't think that $60 price tag is leaving any time soon. So far, the games that Sony is offering in store and PSN are comparable. Warhawk was only different because of the headset. It certainly makes it easier to spend the $60 just because of that convenience though.

[lorddust]

1) Ever heard of Amazon's music store? No DRM. Apple is starting to move away from DRM. Yahoo and Microsoft both shut down their DRMed music stores... DRM for music seems to be leaving. Plus, it's not like it's really difficult to break DRM.

2) Ever hear of bit rot? In 50 years, those CDs might not be readable, but MP3s stored on a HDD probably will be.

This (and others responses) make sense.

I know that physical things can degrade but have had FAR more harddrive go bad on me then cd get broken.

yes not all DRMed things are doomed in the future (most isn't) but there are some weird formats that have become generally unusable and no one has taken the time to break them because it's easier to download it illegally. There ARE file from previous years that are unable to be read(or cannot be read without spending a lot to rebuild a dead computer arch.)

What i was trying to say is that by buying exclusively downloaded you are submitting yourself to the whims of the company in ways that physical media does not.

I realize I was over exadurating a lot.

[ashlad]

I love these downloadable games, its very convenient. :)

I personally hate optical media and hopefully by the time PS4/720 arrive everything will be digital, at least by using some kind of fast and small memory cards.

It's kinda like how my music is now that I want, I own a lot of music but only 4-5 actual CD's. I got most of my music from iTunes or Amazon etc

[damnedeyez]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the digital downloads distribution tendency we seem heading towards. Some is fine, and I've probably purchased more than I would have otherwise, but I still like physical media.

[aerodash84]

I wasn't a huge fan of iTunes right away till I got some free downloads from Pepsi and tried it out. I do like the convenience, but I grew to like it for the cost. Then the selection of music grew to more artists and genres. I actually can buy albums that sometimes cost $59 on Amazon for $15 on iTunes? It's hard to say no on a budget. Then I got turned onto Amazon's DRM free download service, and I'm enjoying that much more. It's far easier to share my music with people and the cost is less. Once again, I got into because of free downloads with Pepsi.

I will say I will buy CDs or records if the price is right. I hate the fact that I drove all the way to a store for a CD that I will probably rip once, through the original in a case or its original case and never see it for a long time. I've pulled some out and they were horribly scratched and never touched. I do like to buy a CD, but I see no real reason to sometimes. I would like to see CDs go the way DVDs have. Offer me some free digital download from iTunes of a music video or bonus material. Something to make that $15 at best buy when you include tax, the drive there and the time to wait in line. I remember a time when I was excited for CD releases, but now I hardly follow bands that I just buy stuff when I hear about it.

[damnedeyez]

Then I got turned onto Amazon's DRM free download service, and I'm enjoying that much more. It's far easier to share my music with people and the cost is less. Once again, I got into because of free downloads with Pepsi.

...

Something to make that $15 at best buy when you include tax, the drive there and the time to wait in line. I remember a time when I was excited for CD releases, but now I hardly follow bands that I just buy stuff when I hear about it.

Ever think of buying the cd through amazon, also?

[dolson]

I personally hate optical media and hopefully by the time PS4/720 arrive everything will be digital, at least by using some kind of fast and small memory cards.

Yes, I too hope it goes that way. Optical media is fine for now, but the load times are catching up, and they really were just introduced into gaming due to cartridge costs being too high (well, other reasons too, but discs are way cheaper). But when I see a Kingston 8GB USB drive for $20, I think in another generation or two, we'll be back to some kind of card-based system where speed is not an issue. (See? Turbo Grafx-16 really WAS way ahead of it's time!)

Ever hear of bit rot? In 50 years, those CDs might not be readable, but MP3s stored on a HDD probably will be.

Well, good thing I ripped all my CDs.

You ever tried to bring an MP3 file to a concert and ask the band to sign it? :P

[aerodash84]

Ever think of buying the cd through amazon, also?

Have before, but I don't buy anything cheap on Amazon. I find myself ordering more then $25 for the free shipping. I did buy a bunch of cheap CDs and pretty sure I got ripped off once. Ordered a CD for like $10 and then I got a message saying it was no longer in stock and I never got my money back. I didn't feel like talking to a customer service rep over $10 but was disappointed since it was hard to come by as it was. Only time I order CDs from Amazon is when I'm trying to get game or anime soundtracks cheaper then Amazon's own warehouse. So I go through the other venders.

I just still don't see the value of buying a CD I hardly will ever use again. Like I said before if music companies started releasing exclusive content with albums I would be all for it. I know iTunes got some content for when you bought an album it would come with music videos. Last CD I can think of to do that was Weird Al Yankovic's Straight out Lynwood. I want a reason to buy a CD, but still hardly see it. And I'm the kind of guy who buys the more expensive collector's edition of DVDs for bonus content or like Juno and Star Wars: Family Guy the digital downloads were worth the price I paid to get 2 copies.

[aerodash84]

You ever tried to bring an MP3 file to a concert and ask the band to sign it? :P

I do buy CDs for stuff like that. Got all of OK Go to sign their first album and their set list before they became bigger months later. Same with the singer for Plain White T's. We had a pretty cool concert the college station I worked at put on.

I have met some acts that don't even have physical CDs for purchase though. One group I met and hung out with I would've loved their autographs, but you could only buy it on iTunes. So I think we may see a shift where new artists start to release their music as digital downloads. Mainly because of the cost of producing a CD and having to sell it only at shows. The convenience factor just keeps winning some more people over. Also, CD sales just aren't what they used to be. I wonder sometimes is it because of digital downloads or is it the quality of the music.

[dolson]

I do buy CDs for stuff like that. Got all of OK Go to sign their first album and their set list before they became bigger months later. Same with the singer for Plain White T's. We had a pretty cool concert the college station I worked at put on.

I have met some acts that don't even have physical CDs for purchase though. One group I met and hung out with I would've loved their autographs, but you could only buy it on iTunes. So I think we may see a shift where new artists start to release their music as digital downloads. Mainly because of the cost of producing a CD and having to sell it only at shows. The convenience factor just keeps winning some more people over. Also, CD sales just aren't what they used to be. I wonder sometimes is it because of digital downloads or is it the quality of the music.

In 2001 I went to Bushnell, IL to a big concert festival (Cornerstone.. probably you never heard of it), and I dropped like $300 on CDs (they were cheap, I got lots. LOOOTS.). The bands there are just walking around with the people, so you walk into them.. So I bought a bunch of CDs specifically to get signed, since most of my CDs were at home. :) If they had MP3 vendors there, I don't know how I would have got these collectible discs into my home (Zao, Saviour Machine, Audio Paradox, Scarecrow & Tinmen, and more I'm forgetting about).

Off-topic, but related to the above... I was buying the Scarecrow & Tinmen CD ($3!!!), in the lineup to pay for it, and this couple were in front of me. The girl turned and looked at me, then said something to her husband. He turned around and asked if I liked Scarecrow & Tinmen, and I said I did (cuz I did at the time, haven't actually listened to them for a long time). He asked if I wanted him to sign it - I flipped the CD over, and he was in the band picture on the back, haha. I dragged him to our campsite for pictures and to meet my sister, since she was also a big fan of the band. Good times...

[stubadub]

I just still don't see the value of buying a CD I hardly will ever use again. Like I said before if music companies started releasing exclusive content with albums I would be all for it. I know iTunes got some content for when you bought an album it would come with music videos. Last CD I can think of to do that was Weird Al Yankovic's Straight out Lynwood. I want a reason to buy a CD, but still hardly see it. And I'm the kind of guy who buys the more expensive collector's edition of DVDs for bonus content or like Juno and Star Wars: Family Guy the digital downloads were worth the price I paid to get 2 copies.

I like buying the CD and sitting down with the liner notes the first time I listen to it. I rip it at whatever bit rate I desire, and have the disc for those moments I am riding in my wife's car with the CD player, or when I am on the patio with my old fashioned boom box. Plus I just like having a physical collection of music to scan through at times. Coverflow is a nice simulation of this, and many things on iTunes come with a digital booklet for the liner notes, but it isn't integrated with iPods so that you can browse through the booklet on your sofa as you listen.

Many cds I get come with a bonus DVD with documentaries and live footage, or a bonus cd of remixes, or are offered in a limited edition with one of the above and expanded liner notes. A lot of the DVD stuff can be throwaway, but when it's good it's really good.

The last Muse album had a limited edition with an hour long concert on it recorded on the Absolution tour, and it was the best document of them live until HAARP was released. The last Underworld album had a version with videos for the album. Wilco put out one with an hour of them rehearsing the material before it was recorded for CD. Bjork put hers out with a DVD of the entire album in 5.1. Nine Inch Nails put the album out for free, then put it in stores with a DVD of them rehearsing for the tour. Mike Patton put out a soundtrack he composed accompanied with the movie he scored. Slipknot has a deluxe edition with a 30 minute documentary on recording the album, plus 3 extra songs. Dieselboys cd came with a bunch of the songs in unmixed form.

Of course, iTunes has it's own offerings in this department. The Pendulum album came with 3 videos and some remixes that aren't on the cd for sale in stores. Portishead and Jamie Lidell came with music videos not included on the disc. There are frequently exclusive songs on the iTunes release. Amazon needs to get some of this stuff offered quickly. Once iTunes is completely DRM free they'll lose their edge.

[kilroyperrywinkle]

(Hey! I go to cornerstone!)

Media is dying. DVDs, CDs, everything... Audible has been doing the downloadable content thing for years now and it works fine. You sign up for an account, you pay for audiobooks and they go into your "library." You can download them if you want and keep them forever, either to burn on CD or in the audible format. But where they really get it is. Even when I stop buying books I still have access to my perviously purchased books. I can download them forever and ever or stream them from their site. I bought the right to access the media, they just made it as easy as possible to do it.

No hassle... so if iTunes, Zune, or Amazon would make it so I can redownload my purchased content I'd be happy to sign up. Until they stop raping my wallet I'll pass and keep be a pirate.

Yar.

[wideawakewesley]

An interesting article from Dave Perry about used games:

http://www.dperry.com/archives/news/dp_blog/used_game_night/

Wes

[dolson]

An interesting article from Dave Perry about used games:

http://www.dperry.com/archives/news/dp_blog/used_game_night/

Wes

The gamers however have the right to sell their games to anyone they like, or trade them. I have no issue with that aspect. I've bought plenty of rare games on Ebay, and I have no problem with Ebay, because we're not doing co-promotion with them. Ebay are not our retail partners.

Sounds like the guy wants to have his cake and eat it, too. How does he propose this work?

If, say, Sony goes all-digital with the PSP, and I buy a game for $40 that is a digital download, how do I go about selling this to a friend via eBay or directly if they are local? Are Sony going to have an option to sell "used digital games" to other users via the PSN? I doubt it.

The problem here is the retailer. The developers/publishers (let's call them the industry) make games for gamers. The gamers buy the games, and the gamers might want to resell some of the product they buy. With the industry speaking out against retailers (GameStop, Best Buy, Amazon, TRU, FutureShop, etc) and their used game practices, they want to go all-digital download, and that screws over the people who the games are made for to begin with.