McCain/Palin

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Who do you guys think McCain will pick? Supposedly the person knows, so it will probably get leaked today. But, if it doesn't, it's supposed to be announced tomorrow by 11am.

I'm guessing Romney, however, I was totally fucking wrong with my last guess for Obama.

I've heard he might pick that chick Sarah Palin. Some people say that if he picks her, he will win (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/tim_shipman/blog/2008/08/27/democrats_fear_john_mccain_will_pick_a_woman_as_hi s_running_mate). I don't think so. I think that will hurt him. I don't think most females go for republicans anyway.

Who do you guys think he'll choose?

[tokenuser]

By his latest ads, I am almost certain that he picked Hilary Clinton.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

By his latest ads, I am almost certain that he picked Hilary Clinton.Ha, well, most people consider him a Democrat, so that wouldn't surprise me.

[bigshotprof]

I'd say Crist, but Crist will turn him down. He would pick Lieberman if it was up to him, but he has been shanghied by the Neos. So it will be Pawlenty. He needs the wedge in the upper midwest.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

He would pick Lieberman if it was up to him, but he has been shanghied by the Neos.I agree. I bet he would love Lieberman. It would destroy his chances of winning if he does pick him for some reason.

[masherscf]

What does Romney bring? He's the former Governor of a notorious New England state. His recent conservative trend is suspect at best. He does not have an impressive record of conservative social or Economic issues. Also, he's not even a christian in the eyes of many core Christian Republicans.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

What does Romney bring? He's the former Governor of a notorious New England state. His recent conservative trend is suspect at best. He does not have an impressive record of conservative social or Economic issues. Also, he's not even a christian in the eyes of many core Christian Republicans.I agree, I don't think he brings anything either. It looks like McCain already has MI, so bringing him on won't help him win that state anyway.

[xibalba]

Ötzi the Iceman for VP they grew up together. :D :p

[quix]

I think it will probably be Romney, but none of McCain's options are all that great. Romney is Mormon which will upset the Christian Conservative base. He's also flip-flopped even more than McCain, which may reinforce whatever apprehension they have. Lieberman would help him in that he would further the myth of the Maverick, but at the same time the Conservative base would riot. I had dismissed that it was Lieberman immediately, but I'm not so sure now given that McCain could push the post-partisan narrative in a way that Obama couldn't if he did it and it does continue to crop up due to stories about GOP leaders doing their all to try to stop McCain from choosing him.

[straylightrise]

I have an inside source that says it's likely Pawlenty.

Sigh. I wish Rudy had won.

[bigshotprof]

I have an inside source that says it's likely Pawlenty.

Sigh. I wish Rudy had won.

I have to admit that I had many sleepless nights worrying about the spectre of a Guiliani Presidency. But that is another thread for another time.

[masherscf]

I have to admit that I had many sleepless nights worrying about the spectre of a Guiliani Presidency. But that is another thread for another time.

There was never a danger of a Rudy president. Those pictures of him in Drag would come out as people realized they don't want a president who's his own first lady.

[tokenuser]

I have an inside source that says it's likely Pawlenty.

Sigh. I wish Rudy had won.My inside source (NPR) showed via an interview with Pawlwnty that its likely not to be him.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

It's official.

McCain/Palin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin)

Well, one things for sure, she's the hottest VP ever so far!

Could a mod change my second wrong guess thread title for me?

[masherscf]

It's official.

McCain/Palin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin)

Well, one things for sure, she's the hottest VP ever so far!

Could a mod change my second wrong guess thread title for me?

I think Walter Mondale just shed a tear...

[quix]

It's official.

McCain/Palin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin)

Well, one things for sure, she's the hottest VP ever so far!

Could a mod change my second wrong guess thread title for me?

I think she's an interesting point for sure. The positives are that she's a fresh face and apparently has an 80% approval rating. The negatives are that she negates the idea that you need experience to be President given that she has far less than Barack Obama and she's being investigated by the government. I'm also wondering how she'll go over with women given that it's obvious she was picked in part to woo the disaffected Hillary voters.

It's also interesting that this may mean McCain has decided to go harder to the right rather than try to woo the middle given that Palin's a hardcore conservative.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

The negatives are that she negates the idea that you need experience to be President given that she has far less than Barack Obama.Good thing she's not running for President then.

[quix]

The Vice President is supposed to be able to step in if anything happens to the President.

[mier]

She's a governor which gives her executive level experience which is something Obama doesn't have.

[quix]

So 2 years of executive > 11 years of legislative?

Of course, judgment is what really matters and she's lacking there too.

[mier]

She has to make decisions not just roll along with the majority. He was in the US Senate for less than 2 years.

You guys just like to pick and choose what matters or not, sorta like that Iraq vote. Oh wait, he wasn't in the senate for that vote. Darn the facts are inconvenient.

[mier]

11 years legistlative? In Illinois maybe sure as hell wasn't the US Senate.

[quix]

She has to make decisions not just roll along with the majority. He was in the US Senate for less than 2 years.

You guys just like to pick and choose what matters or not, sorta like that Iraq vote. Oh wait, he wasn't in the senate for that vote. Darn the facts are inconvenient.

Obama has been in the U.S. Senate less than 2 years, but he was in the State Senate for over a decade. Of course, there is nothing of value in the experience of being wrong at nearly every turn like George Bush, Sarah Palin, and John McCain.

As for the Iraq point, Obama spoke out against the Iraq war on the very day that Bush and the Senate took our nation to war on a lie. It doesn't matter that he wasn't in the US Senate yet. As time as passed, it's just become clearer and clearer that Obama is right about the war in Iraq. The Iraqi government agrees with him. Gen. Wesley Clark agrees with him. Even George W. Bush agrees that we need to end the war.

11 years legistlative? In Illinois maybe sure as hell wasn't the US Senate.

Yeah, it was a reference to his time in the Illinois State Senate.

On a side note, I do feel a little sorry for her given she'll have to debate Biden.

[mier]

That's called Opinion and we know what those are connected with as an analogy.

Surge worked. So obviously things are getting better whether or not you want to acknowledge facts is your problem.

Lets just see how well she does with Biden. I'm interested to see how she speaks today. If she keeps it tight with good clarity then she's going to beat Biden's ass cause that guy has verbal diarrhea. BTW, to decode that for you, he says alot but it means little.

[tokenuser]

Surge worked. So obviously things are getting better whether or not you want to acknowledge facts is your problem.Was it the surge or the corresponding ceasefire from Moqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army??

Its amazing that the surge worked at all (Shock and Awe? Mission Accomplished?) ... because the US was pouring troops in, as other countries were puling them out. So what is the actual net gain in combat personnel in Iraq at the moment?

[mier]

And that matters how to the end result of violence down in the country? Perhaps Moqy decided that instead of dying he should try to get along when he saw more soldiers wandering around?

Regardless of all this banter. I doubt that anyone is going to be persuaded here. Some of you have made up your minds long ago and nothing will dissuade you from your preconceived notions.

[njshadow]

I'm lovin' McCain's pick. They've now cemented my vote. :cool:


McCain/Palin '08!!

[masherscf]

You mean the preconceived notion that Bush is full of crap and will say or do anything to get want he wants regardless of reality?

The "surge" was a "success", what now? My sister's battle-group deployment was extended over 12-months because of the "surge." Has the "success" brought her home? I don't think so.

[masherscf]

I'm lovin' McCain's pick. They've now cemented my vote. :cool:


McCain/Palin '08!!

You can vote, since when?

[njshadow]

You can vote, since when?

Dude, where have you been!? I'm of age to vote.

[masherscf]

Dude, where have you been!? I'm of age to vote.

Don't you have to pay a poll-tax or pass a test or something? Geez, they'll let anyone vote these days... ;)

[njshadow]

Don't you have to pay a poll-tax or pass a test or something? Geez, they'll let anyone vote these days... ;)

Wow, way to be a total jerk.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I'm lovin' McCain's pick. They've now cemented my vote. :cool:It was nice to listen to her speech. Loved the crowd chanting "USA!" over and over. I never heard that during the Democratic speeches. At least one party still wants a USA.

[masherscf]

Wow, way to be a total jerk.

Hey, I was taking advantage of the new "no-rep" policy... and joking.

[njshadow]

It was nice to listen to her speech. Loved the crowd chanting "USA!" over and over. I never heard that during the Democratic speeches. At least one party still wants a USA.

YES. That was awesome. When I heard that I got SO pumped. Gotta love it!

[masherscf]

At least one party still wants a USA.

It takes more than chanting. The USA is a community. You have to believe in community to believe in the USA.

[quix]

Surge worked. So obviously things are getting better whether or not you want to acknowledge facts is your problem.

The escalation(Surge is a misnomer given that we still have more troops in Iraq than we did pre-Surge) is one of the many things which have improved security. However, that wasn't the only thing that it was supposed to accomplish. It was supposed to lead to greater political reconciliation, it hasn't. The "Surge" is at most a partial success.

There's also the fact that as the arch-conservative Rand Corporation points out(and many critics of the Iraq war have said from the beginning) that the law-enforcement approach is superior to the "war on terror":

"First, policing and intelligence should be the backbone of U.S. efforts. In Europe, North America, North Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, al Qa’ida consists of a network of individuals who need to be tracked and arrested. This would require careful work abroad from such organizations as the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), as well as their cooperation with foreign police and intelligence agencies. Second, military force, though not necessarily U.S. soldiers, may be a necessary instrument when al-Qa’ida is involved in an insurgency. Local military forces frequently have more legitimacy to operate than the United States has, and they have a better understanding of the operating environment, even if they need to develop the capacity to deal with insurgent groups over the long run. This means a light U.S. military footprint or none at all. The U.S. military can play a critical role in building indigenous capacity but should generally resist being drawn into combat operations in Muslim societies, since its presence is likely to increase terrorist recruitment. A key part of this strategy should include ending the notion of a war on terrorism and replacing it with such concepts as counterterrorism, which most governments with significant terrorist threats use."

and that the war in Iraq is inflaming terrorists:

"The war in Iraq also created a perception that Islam was under threat. Many Muslims accepted al Qa’ida’s argument that jihad was justified precisely because Islam was under attack by the United States. Consequently, fighting ground wars in the Muslim world appeared to inflame, not quell, Islamic terrorism."

Lets just see how well she does with Biden. I'm interested to see how she speaks today. If she keeps it tight with good clarity then she's going to beat Biden's ass cause that guy has verbal diarrhea. BTW, to decode that for you, he says alot but it means little.

Biden can be less verbose when he wants to.

It was nice to listen to her speech. Loved the crowd chanting "USA!" over and over. I never heard that during the Democratic speeches. At least one party still wants a USA.

Democrats love America, as do Republicans.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

It takes more than chanting.Yea, no kidding. I never said it didn't. I said I was proud that the crowd was doing that.

[tokenuser]

Yea, no kidding. I never said it didn't. I said I was proud that the crowd was doing that.Chanting "USA! USA! USA!" is probably far more appealing than "Tax the poor! Tax the poor!".

I wonder where all those American flags were made?

[masherscf]

Chanting "USA! USA! USA!" is probably far more appealing than "Tax the poor! Tax the poor!".


I swear that's what they chanted at Walter Mondale's acceptance speech at the 1984 DNC.

[skyz]

On a side note, I do feel a little sorry for her given she'll have to debate Biden.

how so ?

her nickname is sarah barracuda

she is younger than obama

she is as good looking at least imho

she is a minority as well (technically women are a majority in numbers but are still treated as minorities)

and she is governor of alaska

she is big time against big oil

i think governor outweighs state senator imho

as you may know i'm not for either candidate

i just like to keep debates somewhat even handed

actually i think she was an inspired choice

[quix]

how so ?

her nickname is sarah barracuda

It is, but as far as I know that was simply because she played basketball intensely. I just don't see her being able to match with Biden, but I could easily be wrong given that I still don't know all that much about her.

as you may know i'm not for either candidate

i just like to keep debates somewhat even handed

actually i think she was an inspired choice

To me she shows that McCain thinks Clinton will support him just because his VP is a woman, which I think displays a fundamental misunderstanding of why people supported Hillary and underestimates their intelligence(given that if they're going to support someone based on the issues, Obama is far closer to Hillary than McCain is.)

[skyz]

To me she shows that McCain thinks Clinton will support him just because his VP is a woman, which I think displays a fundamental misunderstanding of why people supported Hillary and underestimates their intelligence(given that if they're going to support someone based on the issues, Obama is far closer to Hillary than McCain is.)

i think you mean clinton's disappointed supporters will support mccain

hillary is not going to support mccain

she released her delegates

she voted for obama

and she endorsed obama

i think she is going to stay above the fray because should either one that wins not do well

she can in 2011 say 'i told you so' not exactly like that but in essence

she may not be as clever as obama but she is in no way less intelligent

and she's been there in politics she is savvy

obama beat her because he used the internet

as token said she was out maneuvered

[ageexchick]

It is, but as far as I know that was simply because she played basketball intensely. I just don't see her being able to match with Biden, but I could easily be wrong given that I still don't know all that much about her.

I've actually looked her up this morning. I hadn't even heard her name before this morning. I actually asked the question, "What did she crawl out of Alaska or something?" Then I found out, yep, she did.
But she's not as silent a figure as I had perceived. She's a bullish, lifetime NRA member who is really right in the middle of oil issues. She's involved with and leads most aspects of oil use in the state.
As I've learned, she is the guiding light behind the ANWR controversy, wanting to build a pipeline connecting to the mainland states. Of the 20 million acres, she wants 2000 of them to develop and put into productivity. This is along the lines of cutting down the forests for lumbering, but more importantly (to her), it means drilling for more oil. This is mostly in response to the competing build up of BP and ConocoPhillips.

Supposedly, she has the support of Obama to build the line. As for McCain, she is "sure [he] will do all that he can to make sure that this project happens."

If you look on the other side of it, her husband is a blue collar oil production operator and a commercial fisherman out of Bristol Bay.

Her stance is that "her passion for Alaska's outdoors means she respects the environment as she encourages resource development."

I tried not to be too one-sided in my explanation of what she stands for, but she's obviously on one certain side of the fence. I think she has the possibility of making a formidable force.

[skyz]

I think she has the possibility of making a formidable force.

i agree

it amazes me how women are portrayed

hillary was 'only first lady' like she was jackie kennedy more about style than politics

and sarah palin is a 'soccer mom with five children'

and obama's statement labelling her as 'mayor of a small town' when she is in fact governor of alaska (and younger than he is)

and other such attitudes is why i'm not drinking the kool aid

i despise disingenuous

as far as savvy choice for veep i give this point to mccain

[ageexchick]

i agree
it amazes me how women are portrayed
hillary was 'only first lady' like she was jackie kennedy more about style than politics
and sarah palin is a 'soccer mom with five children'
and obama's statement labelling her as 'mayor of a small town' when she is in fact governor of alaska (and younger than he is)
and other such attitudes is why i'm not drinking the kool aid
i despise disingenuous
as far as savvy choice for veep i give this point to mccain


Well, I tried to keep my initial post about her non-biased, but honestly, there seems to be very little she says with which I agree. My dislike for Hilary was more on a personal basis, but I can agree to say that she was the neck to hold the head up of the Clinton Admin.

I'm not so sure if I agree that she is a savvy choice, but she sure is the pretty face that he may need. In 1984 she won the Miss Wasilla contest (she played the flute and won Miss Congeniality), and placed second in the Miss Alaska beauty pageant.

Though, I give her credit for pointing out unethical acts by Repub Party leaders.

[skyz]

Well, I tried to keep my initial post about her non-biased, but honestly, there seems to be very little she says with which I agree. My dislike for Hilary was more on a personal basis, but I can agree to say that she was the neck to hold the head up of the Clinton Admin.

I'm not so sure if I agree that she is a savvy choice, but she sure is the pretty face that he may need. In 1984 she won the Miss Wasilla contest (she played the flute and won Miss Congeniality), and placed second in the Miss Alaska beauty pageant.

Though, I give her credit for pointing out unethical acts by Repub Party leaders.

maybe i was not clear

i agreed she could turn out to be a formidable force

i did not mean to imply you in any other way agreed with me

and yes if 'idol' ization counts she trumps obama as far as looking good as well as biden and mccain and hillary

and as i said she is young (younger) and a minority which provides a balance to obama also young and a minority

and also with no foriegn policy experience which obama seems to assume he has somehow acquired


miss congeniality that's funny i love that movie sandra bullock is hilarious in that

[masherscf]

Though, I give her credit for pointing out unethical acts by Repub Party leaders.

You mean padding one's Wikipedia article with positive facts...

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Chanting "USA! USA! USA!" is probably far more appealing than "Tax the poor! Tax the poor!".

I wonder where all those American flags were made?Ha, you really like this tax argument.

Look, relax, Obama still has a great chance of winning. I'm sure America will be able to cut enough jobs to afford it.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Palin is a lifetime NRA member, and she carries a gun.

Here's what I want to know. Where does Palin hide her Glock?

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/palin_glock.jpg

[masherscf]

Palin is a lifetime NRA member, and she carries a gun.

Here's what I want to know. Where does Palin hide her Glock?

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/palin_glock.jpg

I'm sorry, I had know idea she attended the "Pimps and Hoes" party of the local University...

But, I guess she looks better than Rudy Giuliani in a dress.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I'm sorry, I had know idea she attended the "Pimps and Hoes" party of the local University...
hahahah, yea, I have no clue where that picture is from. Hahaha "Pimps and Hoes." I think she was a beauty queen at one point, maybe that has something to do with it. Who knows.

But, I guess she looks better than Rudy Giuliani in a dress.I think I just threw up a little bit.

[masherscf]

hahahah, yea, I have no clue where that picture is from. Hahaha "Pimps and Hoes." I think she was a beauty queen at one point, maybe that has something to do with it. Who knows.

It's in the past. Howard Dean smoked reefer at the same time...

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Howard Dean smoked reefer at the same time...HEEE-YA!

[skyz]

It's in the past. Howard Dean smoked reefer at the same time...

and both bush and obama did cocaine

we as you may guess have lots of coke heads in miami / miami beach

and it does seems to boost the ego and 'inspire' megalomania

i steer clear of all cocaine users

if you do as much as a line on new year's eve only

i don't want to know you

[murphy1d]

I'm stoked that Michael Palin is running as McCain's VP, he's so funny! :D

[tokenuser]

I'm stoked that Michael Palin is running as McCain's VP, he's so funny! :DWhen I heard the news, I was really hoping that they might bring John Cleese in as well ... the new Department of Silly Walks will be awesome.

[quix]

i think you mean clinton's disappointed supporters will support mccain

hillary is not going to support mccain

Yeah, that was a typo. Hillary's too good of a Democrat to even think about supporting McCain. Sorry for the confusion. I also don't think that many of her supporters actually will support McCain because of Palin given that she's against almost everything that Hillary supports. I just think that McCain thinks women will abandon their principles and vote for any woman who is nominated.

I've actually looked her up this morning. I hadn't even heard her name before this morning. I actually asked the question, "What did she crawl out of Alaska or something?" Then I found out, yep, she did.
...
I tried not to be too one-sided in my explanation of what she stands for, but she's obviously on one certain side of the fence. I think she has the possibility of making a formidable force.

I'm not sure how formidable she'll be. She effectively kills the myth that McCain is a maverick as she's a life-long NRA member who thinks global warming is a myth and wants creationism taught as a viable theory in our schools. I suppose she'll be good for motivating the "values voters" but, other than that she seems like she's simply a perfect target for the Obama campaign and any Democratic 527s that happen to pop up.



and also with no foriegn policy experience which obama seems to assume he has somehow acquired

He's on the Senate Foreign Relations committee.

[ryudo]

Palin is a lifetime NRA member, and she carries a gun.

Here's what I want to know. Where does Palin hide her Glock?

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/palin_glock.jpg

Looks like a 60 year old hooker.

[radzack]

rofl. this election is so fun. bring it on.

[quix]

There is kind of an absurdity to the whole thing.

[skyz]

He's on the Senate Foreign Relations committee.

WASHINGTON — Based on his Senate history, Barack Obama as president would likely push to expand human rights and reduce poverty abroad using cooperation rather than confrontation. If foreign events permit.

Aside from his vigorous opposition to the Iraq war, Obama spent more of his time on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on speeches and inspirational trips than on investigations and aggressive oversight. He was a junior senator with an agreeable manner who was just beginning to cut his teeth on foreign policy issues when he decided to run for president.

Since he took office in 2005, much of Obama’s work attracted little, if any, attention because of the nation’s focus on the Iraq war. Obama pushed through legislation that condemned violence by the Zimbabwe government, for example. He helped raise awareness about Darfur and called on the administration to do more to reduce global poverty.

When Obama took charge of the European affairs subcommittee in early 2007, he didn’t seize the opportunity to scrutinize the Bush administration. With his campaign in full swing, the busy senator did not lead a single policy hearing on any of the hot topics in the panel’s jurisdiction: missile defense, counterterrorism and concern over the waning commitment of European countries to NATO.

Obama’s aides say it’s not unusual for a Senate subcommittee to hold few hearings, with the majority of work being done by the full committee. They also defend Obama’s work on the committee as extremely successful.


obama's record slim on foreign relations comittee (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/02/26/obamas-record-slim-on-senate-foreign-relations-committee/)

Doubts about Barack Obama's presidential credentials have crystallized during the past two weeks over his stewardship of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee's Subcommittee on European Affairs, which has convened no policy hearings since he took over as its chairman last January. That startling fact, first uncovered by Steve Clemons, who blogs on the Washington Note, prompted acid comment in Europe about the Illinois senator's failure to visit the continent since assuming the committee post, and even speculation that he had never traveled there except for a short stopover in London.

obama's european problem (http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2007/12/29/obama_europe/)

[skyz]

There is kind of an absurdity to the whole thing.

waiting for godot (http://www.theatrehistory.com/french/beckett002.html)

[tokenuser]

and also with no foriegn policy experience which obama seems to assume he has somehow acquiredNo foreign policy experience? Every family dinner was a forign policy experience.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Looks like a 60 year old hooker.60? Come on. Not that old. That pictures looks like early 90's. So, maybe she was 30ish.

Still looks like a hooker though.

[quix]

WASHINGTON — Based on his Senate history, Barack Obama as president would likely push to expand human rights and reduce poverty abroad using cooperation rather than confrontation. If foreign events permit.

Aside from his vigorous opposition to the Iraq war, Obama spent more of his time on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on speeches and inspirational trips than on investigations and aggressive oversight. He was a junior senator with an agreeable manner who was just beginning to cut his teeth on foreign policy issues when he decided to run for president.

Since he took office in 2005, much of Obama’s work attracted little, if any, attention because of the nation’s focus on the Iraq war. Obama pushed through legislation that condemned violence by the Zimbabwe government, for example. He helped raise awareness about Darfur and called on the administration to do more to reduce global poverty.

When Obama took charge of the European affairs subcommittee in early 2007, he didn’t seize the opportunity to scrutinize the Bush administration. With his campaign in full swing, the busy senator did not lead a single policy hearing on any of the hot topics in the panel’s jurisdiction: missile defense, counterterrorism and concern over the waning commitment of European countries to NATO.

Obama’s aides say it’s not unusual for a Senate subcommittee to hold few hearings, with the majority of work being done by the full committee. They also defend Obama’s work on the committee as extremely successful.


obama's record slim on foreign relations comittee (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/02/26/obamas-record-slim-on-senate-foreign-relations-committee/)

Doubts about Barack Obama's presidential credentials have crystallized during the past two weeks over his stewardship of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee's Subcommittee on European Affairs, which has convened no policy hearings since he took over as its chairman last January. That startling fact, first uncovered by Steve Clemons, who blogs on the Washington Note, prompted acid comment in Europe about the Illinois senator's failure to visit the continent since assuming the committee post, and even speculation that he had never traveled there except for a short stopover in London.

obama's european problem (http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2007/12/29/obama_europe/)

The first excerpt is from Fox News which is nothing but a GOP mouthpiece. The latter is accurate, but doesn't undermine the fact that he was on the committee prior to January. You'll also notice that he rectified that columnist's complaint on his overseas trip in June and in addition, Obama now has Biden's vast wealth of foreign policy experience to draw upon when the situation requires it.

[skyz]

. You'll also notice that he rectified that columnist's complaint on his overseas trip in June.

one trip in june gives him foreign policy experience

he went on tour like a rock band

please

i've had more foreign policy experience than he has

by age 10 i'd been around the world like 7 times (we lived the far east)

i've been to japan okinawa manila hong kong quam at least a dozen times

you're more intelligent than that

he was on the committee but did not do any service to or for the committee

that's my point

he got voted into the senate and has spent most of his time campaigning for president

be for him if you want but if you need to distort reality to do so

that's a problem

it really is

because the problems we and the world face are all too real

you said yourself it was absurd

and it is

[skyz]

60? Come on. Not that old. That pictures looks like early 90's. So, maybe she was 30ish.

Still looks like a hooker though.

on miami beach the 14 years olds dress like that

[skyz]

No foreign policy experience? Every family dinner was a forign policy experience.

well if that counts

brad and agelina for prez and first lady

[radzack]

you all DO realize that the GOP has no chance of winning this year, right?

[mier]

The typical Fox News bullshit arguement rears its head. Like CNN and the big three are some beacon of unbiased coverage.

There was some nice footage of the "journalist" corp at the DNC clapping for Biden. Yeah that's unbiased as long as they report things the DNC way it's unbiased. Dan Rather is a name is all that needs to be said to put any argument to shame. Little Danny fabricating evidence, tisk tisk, or at least passing off fake documents as genuine.

[quix]

one trip in june gives him foreign policy experience

he went on tour like a rock band

please

i've had more foreign policy experience than he has

by age 10 i'd been around the world like 7 times (we lived the far east)

i've been to japan okinawa manila hong kong quam at least a dozen times

you're more intelligent than that

he was on the committee but did not do any service to or for the committee

that's my point

he got voted into the senate and has spent most of his time campaigning for president

be for him if you want but if you need to distort reality to do so

that's a problem

it really is

because the problems we and the world face are all too real

you said yourself it was absurd

and it is



So in other words, he shouldn't run for President. I'm not distorting reality, I'm simply pointing out that he didn't pull it out of thin air as you alleged. He has helped pass legislation to deal with nuclear proliferation and he's helped pass legislation to help stabilize the Congo. As mentioned, he also has 36 years of experience to draw upon in the form of Joe Biden.

All the GOP has are the short-sighted and failed policies of George W. Bush. Policies which came from men with all the experience in the world. Experience is valuable, but is useless without judgment. The Obama-Biden ticket simply has the best judgment of the two plausible ones.

Oh, and the part about living abroad is a complete strawman.

you all DO realize that the GOP has no chance of winning this year, right?

I realize they shouldn't given the bad state America's in, but McCain is doing well.

The typical Fox News bullshit arguement rears its head. Like CNN and the big three are some beacon of unbiased coverage.

There was some nice footage of the "journalist" corp at the DNC clapping for Biden. Yeah that's unbiased as long as they report things the DNC way it's unbiased. Dan Rather is a name is all that needs to be said to put any argument to shame. Little Danny fabricating evidence, tisk tisk, or at least passing off fake documents as genuine.

I don't think CNN or the big 3 are any good either(though I would imagine my reasons would differ from yours) but, overall they're still better than Fox News. That said, none of it should be blindly accepted.

[skyz]

you all DO realize that the GOP has no chance of winning this year, right?

no i don't

and as i have said i am not for mccain

at least with this argument we will get an actual resolution

come november it will be fact not fantasy

so we shall see

not everyone in the usa is digg loving rev3 loving iphone and mac users

and like it or not

they count exactly as much

i think the dems blew it

[quix]

I think they may have, but that doesn't mean you need to be bitter and condescending. That doesn't help anyone. Obama and Hillary hold nearly the same views on every major issue and if Hillary had won, I'd probably have a Clinton/Obama thing in my sig.

Of course, if the country rejects change for a continuation of the Bush policies, then the country has brought whatever disasters may come upon itself.

[mier]

Anyone that says the GOP is going to lose hasn't been watching their polls. Come November we'll see who loses. I don't care what the posters on Digg say is winning or losing cause I know the big secret of the internet. It is made up of millions of users and only a small percentage of them are actually US citizens so only that percentage can vote. Of that small percentage only a smaller percentage will actually vote.

So internet bullshit traffic and all the hot air Stewart/Colbert can muster don't mean shit if you don't vote.

[ryudo]

Skyz I remember you saying a while back "Hillary WILL win"

That didn't quite come true so what makes it so sure this time?

[quix]

Anyone that says the GOP is going to lose hasn't been watching their polls. Come November we'll see who loses. I don't care what the posters on Digg say is winning or losing cause I know the big secret of the internet. It is made up of millions of users and only a small percentage of them are actually US citizens so only that percentage can vote. Of that small percentage only a smaller percentage will actually vote.

So internet bullshit traffic and all the hot air Stewart/Colbert can muster don't mean shit if you don't vote.

Agreed.

[mier]

Disasters? I like that, the country rejects your plans and rhetoric and suddenly they're all worthy of disasters.

[quix]

I would describe what the Bush policies have done to our economy and our standing in the world as disasters. If the country votes to continue those policies, they bear partial responsibility for the outcome, good or ill. I don't see how that's anything other than the nature of a democracy. I mean, I hope the state of the nation will be good no matter who is President, but judging by the last 8 years, a McCain Presidency will lead to a bad outcome for all but the wealthiest.

[radzack]

no i don't


not everyone in the usa is digg loving rev3 loving iphone and mac users





What does that have to do with anything? You don't have to be trend-savvy to see the disaster that has been the last 8 years...no reason to get upset skyz.

[skyz]

So in other words, he shouldn't run for President. I'm not distorting reality, I'm simply pointing out that he didn't pull it out of thin air as you alleged. He has helped pass legislation to deal with nuclear proliferation and he's helped pass legislation to help stabilize the Congo. As mentioned, he also has 36 years of experience to draw upon in the form of Joe Biden.

All the GOP has are the short-sighted and failed policies of George W. Bush. Policies which came from men with all the experience in the world. Experience is valuable, but is useless without judgment. The Obama-Biden ticket simply has the best judgment of the two plausible ones.

Oh, and the part about living abroad is a complete strawman.

no ! no in other words ! don't assign words to me i dd not use or think

i said that calling obama's trip in january as foriegn policy experience is ridiculous

you remember how hillary's visit to 80 countries as first lady 'didn't count'

but a rock star tour in one month does

come on

and as far as growing up abroad actually living in another culture on an everyday basis

unless you've done so

how would you know

have you ever lived anywhere where your culture was the marginal one



you keep making this about obama being better than mccain or bush

that isn't my argument

my argument is that the glory you are so willing to endow obama with is based on very flimsy evidence

i think he is full of it and mccain is out of it and bush is evil (i knew he was evil the first time i saw his face on tv in 98 or 99)

and whoever wins we are not going to like the next four years

it isn't about winning even

it's about what is done after the winning

and i do not see mlk or jrk in obama

now whether that makes me stupid or perceptive is only your opinion at this point


and for the 20th time for me it has nothing to do with mccain being better or worse or bush being awful

it has to do with giving credit and wanting to give credit where it isn't actually due imho

it reminds me of enron

they were the biggest energy company they planned to be the biggest company period

everyone all the big banks all of wall street were totally 'believing' it and they were totally wrong

there is no point in discussing this further

only time will tell

and it is going to tell

that's for sure

no one in his right mind would want to be president anyway imho

it takes a big ego a meglamania

to think obama is not driven by the same motivation as phelps in naive imho

he is after glory not service

so have the last word i'm done :)


'in an apparent attempt to demonstrate that he possesses the demeanor of a plausible president'


quote from time mag

yes he gets an A in speech

speech is not administration

it is PR

[skyz]

I think they may have, but that doesn't mean you need to be bitter and condescending. That doesn't help anyone. Obama and Hillary hold nearly the same views on every major issue and if Hillary had won, I'd probably have a Clinton/Obama thing in my sig.

Of course, if the country rejects change for a continuation of the Bush policies, then the country has brought whatever disasters may come upon itself.

bitter and condescending because i did not drink the kool aid

for me it is a philosophical argument

i am trying to be logical

arrive at conclusions via necesarry and sufficient conditions

and for you to view me as bitter and condescending says more about you than about me

what exactly do i have to be bitter about

nothing has happened to me

if you think 'change' is a given for better

well then there is no point in discussing with you


you have swallowed the drug and will feel it's effects until it wears off

change is a slogan

it has no inherent leaning toward better

change is inevitable and unbiased

i have not said one word negative about you

the fact that you start with ad hominen tells me you do not know how to argue philosophically

or i've gotten to you and you resent it :p

so see you this time next year

and see if utopia has materialized

no wonder advertising is such big biz

:D

if it is absurd then bitter has nothing to do with it not condescending now does it ?

[esophagus]

he is after glory not serviceThats certainly up for debate. AAre you saying that any person who runs for president is doing so out of ego? Or just Obama? The former is just flawed logic, the latter just silly.
'in an apparent attempt to demonstrate that he possesses the demeanor of a plausible president'

quote from time mag

yes he gets an A in speech

speech is not administration

it is PRThen good thing he has good qualities other than his speeches. What exactly is the relevance of this.

(Mods, perhaps these posts should all be moved to the Obama/Biden thread?)

[skyz]

Then good thing he has good qualities other than his speeches. What exactly is the relevance of this ?


ok you want relevance

why don't you and all others who see obama's good qualities list them right here (or make another thread)

i mean if they are debatable you should at least be able to name them (is that not logical)

make a list of exactly what you expect from obama

like you used to make your list for santa you know like: bike (got it) game x (got the wrong stupid one) computer (what a pc not a mac waaaaa)

i'll save them with your names attributed in my blog

and as time will tell as it inevitably will

we can put a check or an x by each one

how's that for unbiased

if i am wrong i will admit it

if you are wrong you can admit or not

what could be fairer than that

go for it: how is obama going to make YOUR life better

how is he going to make the USA better

and how is he going to make the WORLD better

and saying 'anything would be better than bush' i would advice against

first because it is really weak

and second it is not absolute logic (unfortunately)

go for it:


obama is......


obama will......


thx :D

[kirk89]

Palin could kick obama's ass in basketball

[IanPR]

So when McCain dies, and Palin is in the slot of President, you want someone who has no experience in foreign affairs, and really only has experience in being a mayor of a small town?

You should see the Fox "News" board. They are all rejoicing because what a "good" choice he made. Seriously, this is just blatantly taking votes from would be dumbfuck Hillary supporters who vote for her for the only reason being that she is a woman.

I would actually want to see a McCain/Palin term.
See how much they would utterly fuck up the world.
WW3 ftw.

She knows his anger, and will not stand up for him or offer an opinion. She will just nod and agree. Is that someone we want being a VP?

[tokenuser]

and also with no foreign policy experience which obama seems to assume he has somehow acquiredQuick question: George W Bush ... Governor of Texas, then President of the USA.

Where did he get his "foreign policy experience" from?

Ah ... thats right, a certain "Richard Cheeney". The VP was the one with the foreign policy experience. He'd been instrumental in the invasion of Iraq before, so it is a pretty damn good qualification.

A smart President (be it of a country, or a corporation) will surround themselves with people who they can receive counsel from, assimilate that information, then apply it.

No president is an expert on economics - they have people who do that (but they do need to be intelligent enough to understand what is being communicated), ditto the constitution (actually, Obama *IS* actually an expert on constitutional law), military intelligence/action, education, health care, social services, etc. And included in that mix is foreign policy (the sort that doesn't involve invading another country).

Palin is an interesting choice for VP. McCain is going to need a VP who knows how to handle a gun, and already has the companies lined up on speed dial for drilling in the ANWR. Unfortunately many of the Hilary PUMAs aren't smart enough to realise that it wasn't the XX chromosome that attracted them to her.

[quix]

no ! no in other words ! don't assign words to me i dd not use or think

Criticizing him over not chairing the meetings because he was busy running for President implies that he shouldn't run.

i said that calling obama's trip in january as foriegn policy experience is ridiculous

you remember how hillary's visit to 80 countries as first lady 'didn't count'

but a rock star tour in one month does

The point that I thought he addressed was the columnist's complaint that Obama hadn't spent any time in Europe other than a brief stop in London.

you keep making this about obama being better than mccain or bush

that isn't my argument

my argument is that the glory you are so willing to endow obama with is based on very flimsy evidence

i think he is full of it and mccain is out of it and bush is evil (i knew he was evil the first time i saw his face on tv in 98 or 99)

and whoever wins we are not going to like the next four years

it isn't about winning even

it's about what is done after the winning

and i do not see mlk or jrk in obama

now whether that makes me stupid or perceptive is only your opinion at this point


Oh, I think the JFK, MLK, FDR, comparisons are coming a bit too early and are largely campaign tactics designed to create an aura of inevitable success around him.

quote from time mag

yes he gets an A in speech

speech is not administration

it is PR

It is, but the ability to give a good speech doesn't necessarily mean he'll be a bad President.

bitter and condescending because i did not drink the kool aid

for me it is a philosophical argument

i am trying to be logical

arrive at conclusions via necesarry and sufficient conditions

and for you to view me as bitter and condescending says more about you than about me

The comment that lead me to say the condescending part was not everyone in the usa is digg loving rev3 loving iphone and mac users and the general tone of "I told you so" that was pervading your posts. The bitter came from what may have been a misunderstanding on my part of why you're so deadset against the idea that Obama may be qualified. However, you're right that I shouldn't have used an ad-hominem.

[COLOR="Plum"]what exactly do i have to be bitter about

nothing has happened to me

if you think 'change' is a given for better

well then there is no point in discussing with you


you have swallowed the drug and will feel it's effects until it wears off

change is a slogan

it has no inherent leaning toward better

change is inevitable and unbiased

i have not said one word negative about you

the fact that you start with ad hominen tells me you do not know how to argue philosophically

or i've gotten to you and you resent it :p

so see you this time next year

and see if utopia has materialized

no wonder advertising is such big biz

:D

if it is absurd then bitter has nothing to do with it not condescending now does it ?




I was simply using change a short hand due to the fact that the Obama campaign has effectively tied the word to his economic and foreign policies. I could have said something like:
"Of course, if the country rejects lower taxes for the middle class, higher taxes for the wealthy, an end to the war in Iraq, and effectively universal health care(effectively due to lacking the mandate from the Clinton plan) for a continuation of the Bush policies, then the country has brought whatever disasters may come upon itself."

Oh, and I don't think Obama will create a Utopia. I think the best outcome will probably be something closer to the first Clinton term. Once he's in office, I'm sure I'll be criticizing Obama and working with groups that will try to pressure him to become act progressive because while he is fairly liberal, he also has a willingness to compromise to a degree that I wouldn't want in my ideal candidate.

[radzack]

Hey...why didn't you reply to me? I realize it was correct but still...

[skyz]

Skyz I remember you saying a while back "Hillary WILL win"

That didn't quite come true so what makes it so sure this time?

true ryudo

i did say that

and she did not win

but it might be a delay not a defeat

if whoever wins messes up she could still end up prez in the future either way she is not going to just disappear and be a footnote to history

if obama wins and does not give her a high powered cabinet position then he is foolish and not loyal to the democratic party

she is a valuable resource

anyway my point is not that i am sure of anything

my point is that anointing obama as jfk mlk ghandi from a series of well written and spoken speeches is too easy a sell imho

if he does win and he does anything wonderful i will admit it

when i debate it is always philosophical

so what i am saying is that i do not see the necessary and sufficient conditions to imply the stated outcome


stanford necessary and sufficient (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/necessary-sufficient/)

wiki necessary and sufficient conditions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessary_and_sufficient_conditions)

[skyz]

Criticizing him over not chairing the meetings because he was busy running for President implies that he shouldn't run.


no

criticizing him by saying he was as you said on the foreign relations committee but did not actually do anything is saying you implied he had foreign policy experience and refuting that is actually so is not anywhere close to saying he should not be running for prez

here is a classic exercise in necessary and sufficient conditions:

'if i opened the door i had a key'

not necessarily true

why:

the door could have been unlocked

you could have removed the hinges or used a pick or a credit card etc.

someone inside could have unlocked the door for you

so the statement: 'if i opened the door i had a key'

does not provide necessary and sufficient conditions to make either valid or sound (true)


everything else in your post that included the above is fine

it was that leap from criticizing that your evidence did not support his actually having viable foreign policy experience that was invalid

it is never personal with me

except for one memorable incident involving a certain 'beauty' ;)

irl if i have personal issues of any extremity with anyone i hand it over to the proper authorities / the law

or if it is a friend i drop them

i don't do much arguing other than about ideas

[skyz]

Quick question: George W Bush ... Governor of Texas, then President of the USA.

Where did he get his "foreign policy experience" from?

Ah ... thats right, a certain "Richard Cheeney". The VP was the one with the foreign policy experience. He'd been instrumental in the invasion of Iraq before, so it is a pretty damn good qualification.



quick answer: that worked out really well now didn't it


the rest i'm not going to take on

i may or may not disagree

but i'm tired of this

i really should go to law school then i could get paid for arguing :D

[skyz]

Hey...why didn't you reply to me? I realize it was correct but still...

are you referring to this ?

you all DO realize that the GOP has no chance of winning this year, right?

no i don't realize that

i think it will be close

i don't know who will win

but as i said other than speculate we can just wait

in 2 months we will actually know

[quix]

no

criticizing him by saying he was as you said on the foreign relations committee but did not actually do anything is saying you implied he had foreign policy experience and refuting that is actually so is not anywhere close to saying he should not be running for prez

I never brought up his position as chairman of that subcommittee because as you noted he hasn't chaired a meeting. I brought up the fact that he's a member of it(which he has been since December of '06), the fact that he's proposed multiple bills which are relevant to foreign policy such as the Lugar-Obama Cooperative Proliferation Detection, Interdiction Assistance, and Conventional Threat Reduction Act of 2006, and that he now has Biden's 36 years of experience to draw upon.

Now, I know you said earlier that for you it isn't about Obama or McCain, but as an aside, the Obama-Biden ticket is the one with the most experience.

it is never personal with me

except for one memorable incident involving a certain 'beauty'

Which 'beauty'?

[rabidbadger]

I really really wanna reply to the skyz/quix stuff, and I know threads get derailed all the time, but...

THIS IS THE WRONG THREAD.

and barely even appropriate for the Obama/Biden thread. Cause it really, deep down, is all about my great senator from NY, Hillary Clinton.

[burkhartmj]

I so adamantly completely agree with rabidbadger it hurts. Skyz, quix, youre debate is good and actually kind of interesting [also fascinating, in the fact that it has stayed for the most part nice], but this belongs in the Obama/Biden thread or perhaps a new thread.

As far as Palin, it made me so freakin glad. Never heard of her before the announcement, but what I know I either like or am at the very least mildly OK with [that's right I'm a conservative christian who likes guns, sue me]. I do think she was selected to grab some of the dumber or more vagina focused hilary supporters, but I don't really care.

Also, recently read both McCain's and Obama's plans for Iraq, and in my opinion McCain's makes more sense. People keep saying it's the same as Bush but it really isn't It's continuing a plan started in 2007 that's been largely successful, but not anything like the plan utilized in the previous 5 or 6 years.

[radzack]

I was talking about your response to me saying what you just quoted..You said...

"not everyone is digg and rev3 loving iphone users"

I said:

What does that have to do with anything? You don't have to be trend-savvy to see the disaster that has been the last 8 years...no reason to get upset skyz.

[rabidbadger]

I so adamantly completely agree with rabidbadger it hurts. Skyz, quix, youre debate is good and actually kind of interesting [also fascinating, in the fact that it has stayed for the most part nice], but this belongs in the Obama/Biden thread or perhaps a new thread.

On this we can agree. But Nothing else.

As far as Palin, it made me so freakin glad. Never heard of her before the announcement, but what I know I either like or am at the very least mildly OK with [that's right I'm a conservative christian who likes guns, sue me].

Not gonna sue you, but if that is the shallow, meaningless connection you have with someone you admit that you have no knowledge about, then you get what you deserve. But this choice is McCains Harriet Myers. failure from square one. Cynical and misguided. And instantly loses McCains "Obama don't have exerience" argument, cause she will/can/might inherit his mantle, due to death/incapasitation/resignation due to health, etc.


I do think she was selected to grab some of the dumber or more vagina focused hilary supporters, but I don't really care.

Dude. What you said, and that choice of McCains is so evil. Assumes Women can't think for themselves. That because they were Hillary supporters they will abandon their principals for a pair of anti-choice, anti guncontrol, anti-healthcare idealogues? You got another think coming, kid.

you, and your partys lack of care is why we are in this miserable situation. Move out of your folks house, pay your own rent and bills, pray to your god you don't get sick or injured, and then go crying to the gov for help.

Also, recently read both McCain's and Obama's plans for Iraq, and in my opinion McCain's makes more sense. People keep saying it's the same as Bush but it really isn't It's continuing a plan started in 2007 that's been largely successful, but not anything like the plan utilized in the previous 5 or 6 years.


Dude. you are vague here. BUT the fact we had NO REAL REASON to go into Iraq from DAY ONE means the last few years are just an excuse for an escape plan for the bush/mccain crew.

[quix]

I really really wanna reply to the skyz/quix stuff, and I know threads get derailed all the time, but...

THIS IS THE WRONG THREAD.

and barely even appropriate for the Obama/Biden thread. Cause it really, deep down, is all about my great senator from NY, Hillary Clinton.

You and burkhartmj are right, it should probably be moved to the old General Election '08 thread.

As far as Palin, it made me so freakin glad. Never heard of her before the announcement, but what I know I either like or am at the very least mildly OK with [that's right I'm a conservative christian who likes guns, sue me]. I do think she was selected to grab some of the dumber or more vagina focused hilary supporters, but I don't really care.

I'm glad that someone is in the election who you feel like you can support. I personally think she was a horrible choice, but that's probably an indication that she was great from a Republican perspective.

Also, recently read both McCain's and Obama's plans for Iraq, and in my opinion McCain's makes more sense. People keep saying it's the same as Bush but it really isn't It's continuing a plan started in 2007 that's been largely successful, but not anything like the plan utilized in the previous 5 or 6 years.

Which part of McCain's plan makes more sense to you?

[esophagus]

Also, recently read both McCain's and Obama's plans for Iraq, and in my opinion McCain's makes more sense. People keep saying it's the same as Bush but it really isn't It's continuing a plan started in 2007 that's been largely successful, but not anything like the plan utilized in the previous 5 or 6 years.His plan is to stay until he wins, to put it bluntly. To stay until peace and a successful government has been established and "not a minute longer." The only problem with that is that the United States is destroying as much peace in Iraq as Al Qaeda is. Its called a war, not a peacekeeping mission. 'We should fight until everything is peaceful' is flawed logic, at best.

As far as Palin goes, I don't really like the choice. She disagrees with McCain's stance on Offshore Drilling, a fairly major part of his positions. She is quite obviously being used to grab a little bit of Hilary's vote. Not to menton that fact that the two had barely met before this, which seems somewhat odd to me if he is enough of a fan to think she can help run the country.

[quix]

Are you sure she disagrees with McCain on Offshore Drilling? The AP says she supports it.

[burkhartmj]

Not gonna sue you, but if that is the shallow, meaningless connection you have with someone you admit that you have no knowledge about, then you get what you deserve. But this choice is McCains Harriet Myers. failure from square one. Cynical and misguided. And instantly loses McCains "Obama don't have exerience" argument, cause she will/can/might inherit his mantle, due to death/incapasitation/resignation due to health, etc.

I understand your point here, and actually agree. I don't plan to leave my knowledge of her to what it is though. I'm going to read more about her I assure you, I was just stating first impressions. I don't believe it trashes the experience argument because she was a governor rather than state senate, but that's just my opinion. I can see how some would see it as destroying that argument.

Dude. What you said, and that choice of McCains is so evil. Assumes Women can't think for themselves. That because they were Hillary supporters they will abandon their principals for a pair of anti-choice, anti guncontrol, anti-healthcare idealogues? You got another think coming, kid.

you, and your partys lack of care is why we are in this miserable situation. Move out of your folks house, pay your own rent and bills, pray to your god you don't get sick or injured, and then go crying to the gov for help.

I realize I wasn't clear in my first post, I was referring to what I assume is a fairly small portion of women who supported Hilary. I'm sorry if I came off sexist. And for debate's sake can we use less inflammatory language? Like anti-abortion? I personally feel the kid is important and doubt it would choose to die, but I realize people disagree with my terminology. Please respect that.

Most republicans support gun control, just not banning. We are worried about making gun laws stricter because of that possibly leading to banning them. Look at the UK, where guns are banned, so the number of knifings looks like an epidemic because that's just what's available. People are violent, so those being aggressed should be allowed to defend themselves.

Most foreign people I've talked say social healthcare is a bitch. We might not be perfect, but it's a much better system than Americans give it credit for.

Also, I might be in college, but I do live on my own and pay rent and utilities. I do get healthcare from parents but that's it for the most part. I like and respect you, please try to do the same [as you always have to me in the past].

Dude. you are vague here. BUT the fact we had NO REAL REASON to go into Iraq from DAY ONE means the last few years are just an excuse for an escape plan for the bush/mccain crew.

I don't keep the hard facts in my head past the point where I need them, so after comparing the 2 plans on their respective sites Ilet the facts slip away. I don't debate often so it's usually not an issue, but sorry for not being able to give a clearer explanation. I believe at the time we had reasons that were indeed proven incorrect later on [like WMD's]. So, in effect you are right, we didn't have a real reason in hindsight, but yea, we all know the saying about hindsight. Barring that, assuming you're 100% right about no reason to go in, we still need a way out that doesn't completely destroy the country. From what little I remember, McCain's plan made more sense. He specifically stresses the differences between what he plans to do and what Bush did/is doing, so saying it's the same isn't correct.

I think this is my longest post ever on this forum :eek:

[quix]

If we're taking McCain's words as accurate, he's said that no one has supported Bush on Iraq more than he has. He does try to draw the distinctions, but that's just political maneuvering based on the President's unpopularity.

[rabidbadger]

I understand your point here, and actually agree. I don't plan to leave my knowledge of her to what it is though. I'm going to read more about her I assure you, I was just stating first impressions. I don't believe it trashes the experience argument because she was a governor rather than state senate, but that's just my opinion. I can see how some would see it as destroying that argument.

Sorry. Senator trump governors. In the big picture, anyway. governors are state centric. Senators are both state, national and international centric. If "whatsername" can run alaska, she can run the world?" With not even an inkling of foreign policy? At least Senators get briefs on world affairs. And she is NO match for Biden on world affairs. Not a flat fly on his windsheild, dude.

I realize I wasn't clear in my first post, I was referring to what I assume is a fairly small portion of women who supported Hilary. I'm sorry if I came off sexist.

was very very sexist. thought your generation was over that by now.

And for debate's sake can we use less inflammatory language? Like anti-abortion? I personally feel the kid is important and doubt it would choose to die, but I realize people disagree with my terminology. Please respect that.

bring that up again next time you miss your period. (and what inflammatory language? mentioning choice is inflammatory?)

Most republicans support gun control, just not banning. We are worried about making gun laws stricter because of that possibly leading to banning them. Look at the UK, where guns are banned, so the number of knifings looks like an epidemic because that's just what's available. People are violent, so those being aggressed should be allowed to defend themselves.

Unlike most knee jerk liberals I almost fully support the second ammendment. but not cause of knifings, but because of dictatarorial govenments. When i, and you, can own a Nuke or two, to even it out, though, it's irrelevant.

Most foreign people I've talked say social healthcare is a bitch. We might not be perfect, but it's a much better system than Americans give it credit for.

anecdotal, unqualifiable non-evidence. gonnna sick my Nurse mom on you! she sees the hell that is US health care first hand. Total chaos. Total beuracracy, total hell. You aint been there. I have. You are so worng on this one.

Also, I might be in college, but I do live on my own and pay rent and utilities. I do get healthcare from parents but that's it for the most part. I like and respect you, please try to do the same [as you always have to me in the past].

yeah. i gave you more shit than you deserve. haha. I know you're a good kid. and living/paying your own way is awesome. but you are young. if old folks like me don't call you on naivete, then who will :) can't grow without us!



don't keep the hard facts in my head past the point where I need them, so after comparing the 2 plans on their respective sites Ilet the facts slip away. I don't debate often so it's usually not an issue, but sorry for not being able to give a clearer explanation. I believe at the time we had reasons that were indeed proven incorrect later on [like WMD's]. So, in effect you are right, we didn't have a real reason in hindsight, but yea, we all know the saying about hindsight. Barring that, assuming you're 100% right about no reason to go in, we still need a way out that doesn't completely destroy the country. From what little I remember, McCain's plan made more sense. He specifically stresses the differences between what he plans to do and what Bush did/is doing, so saying it's the same isn't correct.

dude. face it. the bastards lied to us, forged documents, kept changing the goalposts, and hid the real reasons for going there. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11l!!!! proven, verifiable, documentable fact! Oooooooh, sadam was an evil boogy man. so are/were the other evil scumbags on the planet. We going into Darfur to stop that ultra-mass murder? No. Why. No Oil. oh wait. Bush and Co. (including the his hand holding sexist, slave holding buds in Saudi Arabia) they got oil! what a fucking coninkee-dink.!

Yeah. I'm being sarcastic. but only because it's nearly four in the morning. BUT i can back everything I said up.
and I will.

no disrespect, just understand. You are young and new to the world scene. you got a lot to learn.


I think this is my longest post ever on this forum :eek:


Yes it is. But you wanna learn how debate, make longer ones. as long as they are as honest as this one was.

[skyz]

I was talking about your response to me saying what you just quoted..You said...

"not everyone is digg and rev3 loving iphone users"

I said: Originally Posted by radzack
What does that have to do with anything? You don't have to be trend-savvy to see the disaster that has been the last 8 years...no reason to get upset skyz.

sorry i missed that radzack i did not see it till now thank you for bringing it to my attention

and sweetie i'm not upset

i was captain of the debate team in school

when i argue i may get intense but as i said except for those who cross my boundaries it is not personal

to explain

on digg and here at rev3 and others like us who have mostly a pretty privileged life a lot of people hail obama as something great

however and maybe this comes from living in other countries where it was very clear privilege was not the norm not everyone is like most of us

not everyone has their very own computer has or is getting a university education and has time to spend on the internet and even know rev3 exists plus have time to be here and exchange thoughts

so all i was saying was we should not assume that because those who have similar situations in life to ours think one way that everyone in the country is in agreement and will vote as many on these forums or on digg think

and for that matter

on digg three months ago 90 + of users were gung ho obama

now there are a number growing every day who are skeptical

there is nothing wrong with being skeptical

i personally don't like to see unbalanced arguments

as a friend of mine once said: 'you are a born defense lawyer'

if i do not see glory and genius in obama then i have the right to say so

if i do not conclude: bad eights years plus words of change = better as a given then i have the right to my own opinion

i do my own thinking i always have

i woke this morning and i realized why i was skeptical

i'm changing my sig to reflect this

even though cheney is evil let us use him as an example

let us change him to someone like him but benevolent

you hardly hear about him or from him

but we all know that what he does is affecting us

when someone thrives on adulation when people are moved to adulation for mere words i am extremely wary

words are for poets not administrators

i'm a poet myself

i don't actually do much other than think and write and talk i am not the one to call to help you move heavy furniture

so i recognize the difference between thinking and doing

if it were easy to turn thoughts into actions trust me i would know that

but in fact i know the opposite it is very difficult to turn ideas into realities

obama is a dreamer not a doer

inspiration is not enough

let me ask you this: if obama were prez right now and new orleans gets hit big time with another big hurricane while it is still seriously damaged from the one three years ago

and you were a resident of new orleans do you really 'believe' obama is going to be able to or really care to help you

this is a rhetorical question just to get you to try thinking it my way for one sec

anyway i've had enough of this

i'm the one who is going to 'change' my life not some mythical figure in which i place 'belief'

i do know one thing i entered colege in 1994 and left in 2004

the scholarship that was awarded me in 1994 was generous enough that i had more disposable income then than i do now

i have no student loan or other debt

nor do i have kids

nor do i have a job and depend on the general economy

except at the grocery store and gas station etc

so for me i am free to do as i please since what i please is quiet and within the law

and i am free to build my own wealth using my education my talents the copyright laws and the internet

and my family has $ and pays for my health insurance

and i will inherit some capital at some point

i already laid waste to a number of bequests i had a really good time

i am very very very fortunate but not everyone is like me

lots of people are having a really hard time really really really hard

and rhetoric IMHO is not going to help them

we here at rev3 are all young

we we live to see the results of the election and the results the new prez brings

so there is no real point in arguing

for those of you who firmy believe obama is going to make life better for all americans and the world rather than argue about it here amongst the relatively priveleged why don't you turn your computer off and go and convince voters who do not share your views

why don't your provide transportation to the polls on election day

there is still time to get out there and get people registered to vote

offer some time and DO something

if most of the people see what you see and vote he will be your prez if they don't he won't

i'm not voting for either major nominated candidate

[skyz]

I Cause it really, deep down, is all about my great senator from NY, Hillary Clinton.

no sweetie

hillary is not going to be making the decisions for the next four years

she will have influence

but if a massive hurricane hits florida it is not she that will be there to decide WTF to DO

nor will it be she who has made prior decisions that place the best people in power to be able to facilitate and carry out those decisions

and as far as derailed almost all threads get derailed and if they wish the mods of the admins can close move delete

i won't complain

[radzack]

and sweetie i'm not upset



awwwwwwwww

[radzack]

:) :)

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Most republicans support gun control, just not banning.Sorry, but you are WAY off base in thinking that. Republicans will tell you gun control doesn't work. That's hardly supporting it.

[burkhartmj]

Sorry, but you are WAY off base in thinking that. Republicans will tell you gun control doesn't work. That's hardly supporting it.

Well fuck, then I guess I disagree. Though I have never personally heard that from any Republican I know. The only ways gun control doesn't work is the same ways that gun banning wouldn't work.

I'll get to what you said later Joel, just takin a break :)

[quix]

Sorry, but you are WAY off base in thinking that. Republicans will tell you gun control doesn't work. That's hardly supporting it.

Well fuck, then I guess I disagree. Though I have never personally heard that from any Republican I know. The only ways gun control doesn't work is the same ways that gun banning wouldn't work.

I'll get to what you said later Joel, just takin a break :)

I don't think it's as simple as "all Republicans believe A or B." Both political parties contain a various assortment of views. There are certainly the "purer" ideologues who believe that guns should be completely banned or have absolutely no restrictions, but there's a sizable group in both parties that fall in between the two extremes.

Personally, I think some degree of gun control is necessary to stop people with mental disabilities or past felonies from having access to guns. However, if someone is mentally competent and has a clean record, I don't know that I have an issue with gun ownership(especially in rural areas where the police can't respond quickly.)

[bobafettjm]

I don't really follow politics very much, but being someone from Alaska it is interesting to hear the difference in the opinion of Palin from people who live here versus people who live elsewhere.

[rabidbadger]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/09/01/opinion/01opart_sked_large.jpg

[esophagus]

Ha!

Did anyone else catch Cindy McCain explaining Palin's experience? Awesome.

3EqbMoC2P9g

[quix]

Those are both awesome. I do find it interesting that Fox News is feeding the McCain campaign talking points instead of the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDmNk23vEYI

[masherscf]

Those are both awesome. I do find it interesting that Fox News is feeding the McCain campaign talking points instead of the other way around.


I was watching Fox News sometime around the last RNC. The Fox interviewer was asking a Bush campaign spokes person a series questions designed to hit the talking points. One of the questions ended with the phrase "...do you have any idea why John Kerry said something so stupid?"

Sometimes Fox News is a frightening parody of how the conservative movement views the main stream media.

[esophagus]

I don't really follow politics very much, but being someone from Alaska it is interesting to hear the difference in the opinion of Palin from people who live here versus people who live elsewhere.
I'm guessing people in Alaska think its a great choice?

[bobafettjm]

I'm guessing people in Alaska think its a great choice?

Not really. I know a lot of people who can't stand her, but there are a lot of people proud it's someone from Alaska.

[quix]

I was watching Fox News sometime around the last RNC. The Fox interviewer was asking a Bush campaign spokes person a series questions designed to hit the talking points. One of the questions ended with the phrase "...do you have any idea why John Kerry said something so stupid?"

Sometimes Fox News is a frightening parody of how the conservative movement views the main stream media.

Definitely.

[bigshotprof]

Surge worked. So obviously things are getting better whether or not you want to acknowledge facts is your problem.

.

A guy drives his car into a tree. The engine catches fire. People say, "Get out! It's gonna blow."
He says, "I ain't gettin' out. If I get out I can't drive the car to safety."
"But the car is wrecked. You will never be driving it out."
"I ain't leavin' my car!"
The fire engulfs the driver's compartment and the man screams in pain. A large group of bystanders finally run to the car, push it away from the tree and put the fire out. Many burn and permanently scar their hands.
The man gets out of his car, near death and mumbles "See! The surge worked!"

The "surge" cannot have worked, because it should never have needed to work. It was a desperate last ditch effort to salvage what could be salvaged from an unmitigated disaster. To refer to it as in any way a successful turn of events for and acquittal of the people who ran this war is irrational.

[ericjosepi]

Ladies and Gentlemen... the Republican Vice Presidential Candidate!

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/ericjosepi/yikes.png

[quix]

...please tell me that's photoshopped.

[ericjosepi]

Would that I could but I'm certain it's legit.

[skyz]

Would that I could but I'm certain it's legit.

her left arm looks awfully 'tanned' against her white skin

and seems somewhat deformed if it is supposed to match her right arm

[ericjosepi]

her left arm looks awfully 'tanned' against her white skin

and seems somewhat deformed if it is supposed to match her right arm

I'm pretty sure that's the shadow from the gun. If you look, it's cloudy and the sky is somewhat covered so the lighting won't be pure and even all over her.

[esophagus]

That is a photoshop. I knew I recognized that face.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1398/542389855_811a187e7b.jpg

[ericjosepi]

Then I've been swindled!

[quix]

I had an inkling that it was a photoshop due to the face, but it's getting harder and harder to tell given that you can't just dismiss something because it's crazy anymore.

[straylightrise]

Tigh/Roslin 08

Seriously...

[rabidbadger]

Then I've been swindled!

It's still pretty hilarious.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Ba hahahaa, I love the unbias media:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/usweeklybias2.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/usweeklybias1.jpg

[quix]

You're assuming that reflects bias rather than simply reflecting the fact that Palin has far more scandals surrounding her than Michelle does.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

You're assuming that reflects bias rather than simply reflecting the fact that Palin has far more scandals surrounding her than Michelle does.Ha, Democrats are cute. It's all good until it's about them!

[bigshotprof]

Ha, Democrats are cute. It's all good until it's about them!

Another thing to note is that the Obama reference was one in several after months of media coverage, speculation and inuendo--"terrorist fist bump" serial "accidental" slips calling him Osama, his tenure in the madrasa that didn't exist. The reference to Palin is immediate scrutiny of a person who came out of nowhere to run for the vice presidency ad refuses to tak to the media. At least they haven't called her "uppity."

[tokenuser]

At least they haven't called her "uppity."No one is game to call her uppity ... they all know she is packing more than her entire secret service detail.

[quix]

Ha, Democrats are cute. It's all good until it's about them!

There's nothing wrong with criticizing Democrats. I'm simply pointing out that bias isn't the only explanation.

Sarah Palin is a newly crowned vice presidential nominee who has been plagued by scandal after scandal since she was chosen. Michelle on the other is just the possible first lady who had been in the public eye for over a year by the time she was on the cover. There weren't any breaking scandals surrounding Michelle when she was on the cover, there are numerous surrounding Palin now.

Now, I'm assuming your non-sequitur was based on the idea that I'm a hypocrite due to my view of Fox News, but there are a number of differences. The first is that Us Weekly isn't and as far as I know doesn't claim to be a news organization., Secondly in this case they were merely stating the facts, while Fox often outright lies. If you want to argue about that difference, that's a debate I'll have, but that's not the original point I was making.

[phatlip12]

Ba hahahaa, I love the unbias media:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/usweeklybias2.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/usweeklybias1.jpg

Haha! PLEASE tell me thats been photoshoped!

[phatlip12]

I've been wanting to say this about Palin all week:

IF McCain get the nomination I seriously hope theres a shot gun wedding in front of the white house. That would seriously make my life.

On Palin's experience:

I stick to my original argument when this came up regarding Obama. Experience isn't everything when it comes to the performance of the president. George Bush is proof of this. I think it's possible for a person to be a great president or vice president even if their experience is lacking a little bit. Democrat or Republican. I think it's a little hypocritical that fellow Democrats are questioning Palins experience despite defending Obama. It flushes their argument towards Obamas experience right down the toilet IMO.

[rabidbadger]

I've been wanting to say this about Palin all week:

IF McCain get the nomination I seriously hope theres a shot gun wedding in front of the white house. That would seriously make my life.

You mean Cheney in the bushes of the rose garden?

[phatlip12]

You mean Cheney in the bushes of the rose garden?

Precisely!

[rabidbadger]

welcome back dude. and a welcome back present...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bar-art/2823940791/

[quix]

Haha! PLEASE tell me thats been photoshoped!

It's not, I saw it at Barnes and Noble earlier today.

[guytheninja]

welcome back dude. and a welcome back present...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bar-art/2823940791/

This reminds me of that Brian Brushwood "hobbit feet" comment that you said yesterday........... WHERE do you find this information???

[esophagus]

Sarah Palin never had a passport until 2006. Her plane stopping to refuel in Ireland is apparently noteworthy enough to be mentioned as a "trip" to another country, considering she has only actually made 3 such trips, all a part of one tour. Even Cindy McCains claims that living close to Russia helped her are caving in, as she has never really made any attempts to have any relations with Russia, or even Canada for that matter. Hows that for foreign policy experience?

LINK (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/09/03/palin_not_well_traveled_outside_us/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed6)

The more I find out about her, the more it feels to me like McCain just grabbed her to snag some of the Hilary vote, which upsets me to no end. And no, I'm not talking about any of her family troubles. I don't see how that has any real place in the election.

[bigshotprof]

I just noticed the banner ad at the top of this page for McCain-Palin. It is sponsored by the McCain Palin "Compliance Fund." If these two get elected, the Ralph Reed/Jerry Falwell wing of the Republican party will be in the White House. Compliance is a word we will be hearing a lot.

[quix]

Sarah Palin never had a passport until 2006. Her plane stopping to refuel in Ireland is apparently noteworthy enough to be mentioned as a "trip" to another country, considering she has only actually made 3 such trips, all a part of one tour. Even Cindy McCains claims that living close to Russia helped her are caving in, as she has never really made any attempts to have any relations with Russia, or even Canada for that matter. Hows that for foreign policy experience?

LINK (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/09/03/palin_not_well_traveled_outside_us/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed6)

The more I find out about her, the more it feels to me like McCain just grabbed her to snag some of the Hilary vote, which upsets me to no end. And no, I'm not talking about any of her family troubles. I don't see how that has any real place in the election.

I agree on all of that, but he didn't just pick her for the Clinton vote, he also picked her for the far right vote as shown by a speech she gave in her former church proclaiming that God wanted a gas pipeline and that God wants the Iraq War. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1vPYbRB7k)

[bigstupid]

Ladies and Gentlemen... the Republican Vice Presidential Candidate!

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/ericjosepi/yikes.png

Honestly... Even though it's a badly timed face shot... and it's not real.... still sexy. I know... I know... but, it is. Women and guns... that's just sexy Women and bladed weapons... also sexy.

[quix]

I think the fact that no one was sure it was fake shows how crazy Palin is(though to clarify it's mainly the stuff like "God wants us to have this pipeline" that strikes me as crazy.)

[bigstupid]

I think the fact that no one was sure it was fake shows how crazy Palin is.

So what? Biden makes douchebag comments, Obama thinks he's the chosen one(I really think he feels this), McCain turned on his party after not winning the nomination back in 2000, and everyone has an ego... They are running for president of the most powerful country (for now...) in the world... most of the people who run aren't worthy of the position and many of them have questionable motives. You can't even get nominated unless you claim you believe in God... and a very large chunk of the population consists of what has been coined as, 'the dumb vote'....

The truth... it's never popular.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Obama's speech lacked any real description, same with Palin. Binden was the only one so far who described the "how's" in his speech. Although it was all typical "more government" explanations, he was the only one who has done it so far.

Hopefully McCain's speech tonight isn't empty as the others have been so far.

[quix]

So what? Biden makes douchebag comments, Obama thinks he's the chosen one(I really think he feels this), McCain turned on his party after not winning the nomination back in 2000, and everyone has an ego... They are running for president of the most powerful country (for now...) in the world... most of the people who run aren't worthy of the position and many of them have questionable motives. You can't even get nominated unless you claim you believe in God... and a very large chunk of the population consists of what has been coined as, 'the dumb vote'....

The truth... it's never popular.

Oh, I'm not saying that Biden and Obama don't have egos. The fact that they think they're up to that challenge alone shows ego. However, ego and insanity aren't the same thing.

Believing you can run the most powerful country on Earth and bring it out of the horrible state it's currently in requires a large ego, regardless of whether or not you can actually do it. However, not believing in science and believing that God wants you to build a pipeline is simply insane.

As for the point about 'the dumb vote', I agree. I wish we had an educated electorate because it would make the politicians address the issues and take a higher road in their campaigns, but c'est la vie.

Obama's speech lacked any real description, same with Palin. Binden was the only one so far who described the "how's" in his speech. Although it was all typical "more government" explanations, he was the only one who has done it so far.

Hopefully McCain's speech tonight isn't empty as the others have been so far.

Obama's speech had real policy details within the lofty rhetoric. I definitely agree on Palin and McCain's speeches though. I'm hoping he'll talk about what he intends to do rather than resorting to the politics of personal destruction as Palin did.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Obama's speech had real policy details within the lofty rhetoric. I definitely agree on Palin and McCain's speeches though.lol, is it even possible for a Democrat to ever think something about their party is wrong? It's almost sad.

Also, McCain's speech is tonight. So, can you please upload your future video you have for us all to watch it?

[quix]

lol, is it even possible for a Democrat to ever think something about their party is wrong? It's almost sad.

I have issues with the Democratic Party, but when one makes critcisms that aren't based on fact, I point it out.

Here's a convenient list of some areas where I think the Democrats have been wrong.
- Their refusal to move to impeach Bush and Cheney has shown cowardice.
- Their willingness to compromise on Telecom immunity was despicable.
- Most of the Democratic Party's blind support of the Iraq War back in 2003 was sad then and is sad now.
- They should prosecute Rove for ignoring multiple subpoenas.
- They should be fighting against torture.
- They should fight to restore Habeas Corpus.
- They should fight to ban the Death Penalty.
- They should fight to bring the power of the executive back to pre-Bush levels.
- They should fight to defend the right to unionize.
- They should fight harder for the right to healthcare.
- We should withdraw from the WTO to defend labor rights.
- They should fight harder for marriage equality.

But, of course I agree with the Democrats on most things. If I didn't, I wouldn't be a Democrat.

I guess the next question is, where do you think the Republican Party has gone wrong?

lAlso, McCain's speech is tonight. So, can you please upload your future video you have for us all to watch it?

Read the post again. I said "I'm hoping he'll(as in he will) talk about what he intends to do rather than resorting to the politics of personal destruction as Palin did."

[bigstupid]

I have issues with the Democratic Party, but when one makes critcisms that aren't based on fact, I point it out.

Here's a convenient list of some areas where I think the Democrats have been wrong.
- Their refusal to move to impeach Bush and Cheney has shown cowardice.
- Their willingness to compromise on Telecom immunity was despicable.
- Most of the Democratic Party's blind support of the Iraq War back in 2003 was sad then and is sad now.
- They should prosecute Rove for ignoring multiple subpoenas.

- They should be fighting against torture.

If you could save 100 lives... or 1,000,000 lives by torturing one man... is it worth it? Yeah, probably...

- They should fight to restore Habeas Corpus.

They obviously don't care.

- They should fight to ban the Death Penalty.

They obviously don't care. If you do something horrible and down right evil (subjective I know), death is a punishment that makes sense...Locking people up for genocide or mass murders or serial killings is just a waste of resources
- They should fight to bring the power of the executive back to pre-Bush levels.

They don't seem to care, unless it's a Republican president.

- They should fight to defend the right to unionize.

Everyone should.

- They should fight harder for the right to healthcare.

How, why, what, when, where? I wish I had healthcare, but that doesn't mean someone else should pay for it. That's wrong... unless they want to.
- We should withdraw from the WTO to defend labor rights.

I think we should regardless of labor rights... But, why would they care?

- They should fight harder for marriage equality.

I'm not sure most people in the party care. I think everyone should care, but they don't... I think we should all have the right to association.

I guess the next question is, where do you think the Republican Party has gone wrong?

Almost everywhere...

Both parties are bullshit. It's the truth and nobody wants to really do anything about it. They just blame the other side or think they can change their party from the inside out... nope. Both are screwed up to the point of no return.

Read the post again. I said "I'm hoping he'll(as in he will) talk about what he intends to do rather than resorting to the politics of personal destruction as Palin did."

These entities are political platforms... but... they don't represent their members anymore. It's all about their power and their influence, and they use the dopes to fuel their greed machine.

[quix]

If you could save 100 lives... or 1,000,000 lives by torturing one man... is it worth it? Yeah, probably...

Nope. The ends don't justify the means.

- They should fight to restore Habeas Corpus.

They obviously don't care.

They don't care enough to fight to bring it back, they may care more about it if they have a Democratic President and Senate.

- They should fight to ban the Death Penalty.

They obviously don't care. If you do something horrible and down right evil (subjective I know), death is a punishment that makes sense...Locking people up for genocide or mass murders or serial killings is just a waste of resources

Except the Death Penalty(or at least the current set up) costs more than life in prison does. Financially, our current set up makes no sense.[/quote]

They don't seem to care, unless it's a Republican president.

There hasn't been a Democratic President with the power Bush and his allies gave the office, so we have yet to see, though my guess is you're right.

Everyone should.

Agree.

- They should fight harder for the right to healthcare.

How, why, what, when, where? I wish I had healthcare, but that doesn't mean someone else should pay for it. That's wrong... unless they want to.

I don't have the same opposition to taxation, so I have no problem with some of my money going to help give healthcare to those who normally couldn't afford it.

I think we should regardless of labor rights... But, why would they care?

Unionization leads to greater economic equality which tends to lead to a college education which often(but not always) leads to them becoming a Democratic voter.

I'm not sure most people in the party care. I think everyone should care, but they don't... I think we should all have the right to association.

Agreed on both.

Almost everywhere...

Both parties are bullshit. It's the truth and nobody wants to really do anything about it. They just blame the other side or think they can change their party from the inside out... nope. Both are screwed up to the point of no return.


I'd love to see us move to a partyless system.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Finally, the Pubs are fighting back. I love it:

Obamowned #1
Palin: I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a "community organizer," except that you have actual responsibilities. I might add that in small towns, we don't quite know what to make of a candidate who lavishes praise on working people when they are listening, and then talks about how bitterly they cling to their religion and guns when those people aren't listening.

We tend to prefer candidates who don't talk about us one way in Scranton and another way in San Francisco.

Hahahahaha! It's too bad running the USA isn't like organizing bingo games on Saturday nights.... B-I-NGO! B-I-NGO! Hahahahaa!

Obamowned #2
AjGhy8LVwAo
*edit*
Um... youtube embed failure? Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjGhy8LVwAo

[quix]

It's just more evidence that the Republicans know that America is sick of the Bush policies. Obama acted with maturity and talked about what he will do for the American People. Palin was childish and threw schoolyard taunts. Hopefully McCain will act his age.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

37,244,000 watched Palin. 24,029,000 watched Biden; and 38,379,000 watched Obama (http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/09/palin-ratings-s.html).

I wonder how Obama's speech would have gone if his teleprompter got owned like it did for Palin. Oh, wait, I've seen it before...

[quix]

So are you going to respond to points made by anyone else or are you just going to ignore it when people prove you wrong?

Oh, and btw her teleprompter didn't go down. (http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0908/The_teleprompter_did_not_break.html)

[secret-steve-crumbles]

So are you going to respond to points made by anyone else or are you just going to ignore it when people prove you wrong?

Oh, and btw her teleprompter didn't go down. (http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0908/The_teleprompter_did_not_break.html)Her teleprompter became useless to her, just like your article says. Much like Obama's thoughts when he doesn't have his teleprompter.

And no, you aren't proving me wrong on anything. You're just posting your Democratic views in the wrong thread. You need to go to the B-*CLAP*-NGO! thread.

[rabidbadger]

did I miss something? what's this bingo ref?

[secret-steve-crumbles]

did I miss something? what's this bingo ref?I'm poking fun at Obama's "community organizer" experience.

[quix]

Her teleprompter became useless to her, just like your article says. Much like Obama's thoughts when he doesn't have his teleprompter.

The article doesn't say it became useless. It says "it scrolled slightly(emphasis mine) past her exact point in the speech."

[secret-steve-crumbles]

The article doesn't say it became useless. It says "it scrolled slightly(emphasis mine) past her exact point in the speech."Right, I know, we get it, she's a republican. Relax dude.

*edit*
hahaha, I just noticed where you lived, that explains a lot. Monkey see, monkey do.

[rabidbadger]

I'm poking fun at Obama's "community organizer" experience.

Why? does community service suck? He coulda been just another anonymous Bigass lawyer. He chose to help a community in distress. That is bad how?

[tokenuser]

Why? does community service suck? He coulda been just another anonymous Bigass lawyer. He chose to help a community in distress. That is bad how?Well duh ... if he had become a criminal defense attourney, or business law attourney, he could have funded his own campaign instead of begging for donations from people that can barely put gas in their car, let alone buy anything off the dollar menu at McDs.

I am confused at the Obama/Palin comparisons.

He still has more experience than she does in Federal politics, and has had a passport since way before 2006. Sorry Sarah, but taking a Kontiki tour of Europe does not make you an expert in international relations.

[esophagus]

So, does saying that he hates war make up for the fact that he doesn't want to withdraw from Iraq?

[secret-steve-crumbles]

and has had a passport since way before 2006.
Why...does community service suck?Hahaha, this is almost getting comical. You guys are actually turning my thoughts around on this election. The lame arguments make me really think the Dem's think they are in bad shape now.

I just saw two Obamaites disrupt McCain's live speech. I love it, only a Democrat. Makes me think you guys are worried even more. You can't even keep your mouths shut to let him speak without "protesting" him while he's talking. It really makes me think that party needs to grow up a little bit.

"Waahh... government give me this, give me that!" "Shut up, you can't talk, who cares if it's your turn! wahhh!"

[esophagus]

Yeah, the protests were silly. He's a republican, not a tyrant.

[njshadow]

I must say I absolutely loved McCain's speech. (I created a thread about it) But one thing that was kinda funny was the.............

"red meat, red meat, wow, a lot of red meat, did you see that red meat, how about that red meat!?"

I didn't catch Colbert or Stewart but I'm sure they had a field day with how often the CNN people kept using that phrase/analogy. Ha ha.

It seems as though there should have been a giant barbecue pit in the middle of the convention. Why, what's that delicious smell? Oh, it just the Republican convention and all that red meat. LOL. :D

[phatlip12]

Yeah, the protests were silly. He's a republican, not a tyrant.

Not yet. :)


*Kidding- theres a time and a place to protest. This wasn't the time nor the place. It's one thing to do it outside the convention. It's another to go inside and disrupt things.*

[ryudo]

Ladies and Gentlemen... the Republican Vice Presidential Candidate!

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t206/ericjosepi/yikes.png

Could this pic get any more red neck?(I guess it could if she was pregnant)

Love the slime in the pool.

[scoobydiesel]

omg at that picture.

Seriously wow i forgot what i was even going to say after seeing that 0_0;

eew slime.

[burkhartmj]

I believe we covered that the picture was 'shopped like 8 pages ago or something.

Now that all the speeches have happened I need to go back and download and watch them [the four main ones, not all the inane bullshit before between and after]. It could be interesting watching them back to back.

Anyways, I think experience is officially a non-issue in this race now. Fox News can say all they want that Palin has more experience than Obama, but with the choice of Biden as his VP, it just doesn't matter. Same goes for Palin and McCain. The ONLY way this could still matter is by saying that the VP is more a president-in-training and can learn the IR stuff along the way, while president needs it immediately. I personally don't really agree with this in the strictest sense, since both have someone with heavy experience to rely on, but woo for devil's advocate.

And, I said I'd get back to ya Joel, so here it is:

bring that up again next time you miss your period. (and what inflammatory language? mentioning choice is inflammatory?)

Well, I don't have periods, and actually don't have sex. It's old school sure, but I never have to worry about a kid. Anyways, yea saying I'm anti-choice is like saying you're anti-life. Neither is patently true. I think choice is awesome, just not when a life is involved. If that kinda thing doesn't bother you, then I'll just utilize my thick skin, I just don't think that kind of language belongs in a well intentioned debate.

Unlike most knee jerk liberals I almost fully support the second ammendment. but not cause of knifings, but because of dictatarorial govenments. When i, and you, can own a Nuke or two, to even it out, though, it's irrelevant.

I don't fully understand the second half about nukes and all, but yea, agree with first half.

anecdotal, unqualifiable non-evidence. gonnna sick my Nurse mom on you! she sees the hell that is US health care first hand. Total chaos. Total beuracracy, total hell. You aint been there. I have. You are so worng on this one.

Covered this up above, and would love to hear about the experience of someone in a country with socialized healthcare very much. Ideally, of course I support everyone getting healthcare, I just have never seen any logical socialized healthcare that worked.

yeah. i gave you more shit than you deserve. haha. I know you're a good kid. and living/paying your own way is awesome. but you are young. if old folks like me don't call you on naivete, then who will :) can't grow without us!

it's cool :D

dude. face it. the bastards lied to us, forged documents, kept changing the goalposts, and hid the real reasons for going there. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11l!!!! proven, verifiable, documentable fact! Oooooooh, sadam was an evil boogy man. so are/were the other evil scumbags on the planet. We going into Darfur to stop that ultra-mass murder? No. Why. No Oil. oh wait. Bush and Co. (including the his hand holding sexist, slave holding buds in Saudi Arabia) they got oil! what a fucking coninkee-dink.!

Yeah. I'm being sarcastic. but only because it's nearly four in the morning. BUT i can back everything I said up.
and I will.

Oil is a weak argument at best. You know who supplied around 60-70% of our oil? Canada! Iraq barely makes top 10, and offers less than a quarter what Canada does.

And yea, it's 3:30 right now, so I fully understand starting to go a bit zany as it gets later.

no disrespect, just understand. You are young and new to the world scene. you got a lot to learn.

I'm not 100% new, just newly caring again. Did the whole AP government thing, and have taken International Relations classes. And probably after the election, I'm gonna fall behind again, til it's time to vote for Congress.

Yes it is. But you wanna learn how debate, make longer ones. as long as they are as honest as this one was.

Actually, I didn't wanna learn how to debate lol. My original half-assed sexist-sounding post was just me publicly musing. But it's cool.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

HAhahaha, seriously, I don't think Hollywood could write this any better.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/orly.jpg

[secret-steve-crumbles]

*edit*
Fail.

[tokenuser]

I didn't catch Colbert or Stewart but I'm sure they had a field day with how often the CNN people kept using that phrase/analogy. Ha ha.Daily Show / Colbert Report are a day behind the events. McCains speech will be on tonights show (note: Friday night ...).

[esophagus]

Daily Show / Colbert Report are a day behind the events. McCains speech will be on tonights show (note: Friday night ...).
Last nights episodes (Thursdays) of both Colbert and the Daily Show were possibly my favorites of both. Lets hope tonight tops it.

[fishtoprecords]

My sister's battle-group deployment was extended over 12-months because of the "surge." Has the "success" brought her home?
Too bad, your sister has been drafted. What a crock, if you need a big army, get one, don't take your best soldiers and turn them into slaves.

Of course, we should not look for truth in the Administration, or Bush3.

[tokenuser]

Of course, we should not look for truth in the Administration, or Bush3.The former Prime Minister of Australia - John Howard - was referred to in the press as "Bonsai".

Why Bonsai? Because he was a ittle Bush.

Kinda fits McCain as well :p

[xibalba]

Can put 'lipstick on a pig,' but 'it is still a pig

Hahah

[bigshotprof]

Hahah

Nope. You put lipstick on it and it's Miss Congeniality.

[esophagus]

Just stumbled upon some conservative tshirts. Some of these look like tehy should be worn ironically, but nope... Entirely serious.

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-atf.gif

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-wtr.gif

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-nutjob.jpg

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-osa.gif

[esophagus]

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-redefeat.gif

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-fredimao.jpg

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-defeat.gif

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-med-cat.gif

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I bought this tshirt the other day:

https://secure.nraila.org/images/bittershirtlr.jpg

[tokenuser]

http://baldeagle08.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/sarah_palin_noob.jpg?w=300&h=293

[xibalba]

Here is a pretty bad shirt
http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a1069/a1069_bm.gif

[esophagus]

I bought this tshirt the other day:

In that case, you may want to check out their 35% off sale (http://www.thoseshirts.com/).

[phatlip12]

Wow

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-large-forecast-back.gif

[esophagus]

Wow

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/square-large-forecast-back.gifYeah. That one past my thoughts of irony and just went to straight-up offensive.

[rabidbadger]

I don't need to say any more than this guy does. (http://www.deusexmalcontent.com/2008/09/stupid-does-as-stupid-is.html) (but I most probably will :) )