Republicans for Obama

[straylightrise]

I'm interested in how many forum users are voting for Obama despite their party affliation of being Republican?

[diane]

I'm interested in how many forum users are voting for Obama despite their party affliation of being Republican?

I am fiscally conservative. I was a registered Republican for quite some time. I never voted for Bush but that was more out of respect to my die hard Republican Grandfather's memory. He hated Cheney. Thought he was (and I swear I am quoting him as he would say in front of his 5 year old granddaughter) "he is a damn pussy who lick Stalin's balls if he was paid for it". He was quite opinionated. I learned politics while watching the news and the Ollie North trials with him. Though I greatly respected Al Gore, and really didn't think much of Bush 2, I do have a tremendous amount of respect for Bush 1, so I was willing to consider him. But then Cheney was chosen and I thought my Grandfather might very well become the first zombie ever just to come and kick my butt. So Al Gore was my first Democratic vote in a real competition (I don't count Dole because frankly that wasn't a competition).

What is funny for me is that when it comes to presidents I drift Democratic. And I do so because of the fiscal issues. If you actually analyze history, they are oddly more conservative fiscally than Republicans. Where they are called on is that they actually pay for it by raising taxes versus passing the buck to the next generation.

I want to have a balance budget.

I want to have a tiny national debt if any.

And I want it before Anakin is an adult. And yes, I am willing to pay for it. I want him and his generation to not suffer a third rate country because of past generations. And if you stop and truly look at where we stand overall, based on different demographics, healthcare, education, living standards, even life expectancy, we are not the top, in some we are not even higher than some 3rd world countries. That really depresses me. I want this country to be truly great again. I want the best for my son. I want the best for this country. I want Obama.

[computoman]

I do not consider myself to be a racist (my daughter is half chinese), but I would not vote for Obama if you know what froze over. Back in the early 1990's, I was badly hurt and disfigured by a black militant who said because I was white I needed to be taught a lesson, That happened the day the california police officers were freed. The democrats are going to raise our taxes for their bs. Obama has no intention of lowering taxes. More dem rhetoric. I f he wants to be all new, why did he pick an old fogie be his running mate. Such hypocrisy. The current BUSH IS A hot air DEMOCRAT, not a republican. I did not vote for him. The us is trillions of dollars in debt. we have people hurting because of the hurricanes, many people jobless becuase bush has given our jobs away (plus affirmative action) and now he is giving 1 billion dollars to the people in russia's georgia. Bush should be tried for treason. Maybe that is why he has turned his Texas home into a fortress. It is a shame he did not get any brains from his dad. I bet Reagan and Ford are turning over in their graves. Most real republicans are not like the bean brain Mr. Bush. I am a pacifist, but I tell you if Obama becomes president and taxes get raised. from what I overhear people saying their will be a race war..

[quix]

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4251/1216242304528wu1.gif

[rabidbadger]

bwahhhhahhhhaaa.

[esophagus]

I do not consider myself to be a racistDisliking black people based on one event makes you racist, no matter the color of your daughter.If he wants to be all new, why did he pick an old fogie be his running mate. Such hypocrisy.His slogan is change, not "All New" and change does not require everyone involved to be young or new in politics. from what I overhear people saying their will be a race war..Who are you listening to? Men in foil hats? If people get upset at what Obama does, which I'm not here to speculate about, I can assure you that black folk will not rush over to his aid. He's half-white. Why are you focusing on the colored side so much?

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I do not consider myself to be a racist (my daughter is half chinese), but I would not vote for Obama if you know what froze over. Back in the early 1990's, I was badly hurt and disfigured by a black militant who said because I was white I needed to be taught a lesson, That happened the day the california police officers were freed. The democrats are going to raise our taxes for their bs. Obama has no intention of lowering taxes. More dem rhetoric. I f he wants to be all new, why did he pick an old fogie be his running mate. Such hypocrisy. The current BUSH IS A hot air DEMOCRAT, not a republican. I did not vote for him. The us is trillions of dollars in debt. we have people hurting because of the hurricanes, many people jobless becuase bush has given our jobs away (plus affirmative action) and now he is giving 1 billion dollars to the people in russia's georgia. Bush should be tried for treason. Maybe that is why he has turned his Texas home into a fortress. It is a shame he did not get any brains from his dad. I bet Reagan and Ford are turning over in their graves. Most real republicans are not like the bean brain Mr. Bush. I am a pacifist, but I tell you if Obama becomes president and taxes get raised. from what I overhear people saying their will be a race war..OK, first, wow. WTF. Second, what was with the first part of your post? You go on to say how your not racist... and then it has nothing to do with anything else you say.

Also, I wouldn't worry about a race war if he wins, I'd worry about it if he loses. Democrats don't like to accept blame for anything. Ever. If the Dem's get in and manage to pass Universal Health Care, when it fails, and it will, the Democrats will have someone else to blame. If Bush is still alive, it will be his fault.

If Obama loses, it won't be because the majority of Americans don't agree with him. It will be because America is racist (http://www.slate.com/id/2198397/), or there was a miscount. Again.

I think the Pubs have a great chance now with Palin. Most conservatives don't like McCain too much. She is giving him the edge he needs. Look at what the Democrats are doing. They can't fight her message, so they are attacking her. I even saw an article earlier about how they are attacking her hairstyle, and how the Liberal lesbians are calling her a man. It's comical. Hell, even Obama claimed to have more experience than her which is fucking hilarious.

We'll know by Monday/Tuesday next week who's going to win. There should be decent poll numbers by then. Typically whoever is ahead at the end of the conventions wins. Even if by a small amount.

[rabidbadger]

IThe current BUSH IS A hot air DEMOCRAT, not a republican.

In what way is w a dem?

... I tell you if Obama becomes president and taxes get raised. from what I overhear people saying their will be a race war..

Are you posting from the same prison that Charles Manson is in?

[secret-steve-crumbles]

In what way is w a dem?He votes for larger government every 5 seconds. He also hasn't vetoed a single fucking bill the dems wanted. In fact, I think he holds the record for fewest veto's ever.

[rabidbadger]

If "big gov" means more money, than yeah. His Dad did the same thing but Mr. Clinton not only fixed that, but fixed it with a surplus.

...and w wins for most vacation time too.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

If "big gov" means more money, than yeah.Yes, he's been hardly a Pub. Hence him acting like a Democrat (and ironically Democrats hating him.. go figure...)

Mr. Clinton not only fixed that, but fixed it with a surplus.More accurately, we fixed it.

There are really only three ways to eliminate a budget deficit:

a) Increase the fuck out of taxes
b) Stop spending
c) Do a & b

You are saying that Mr. Clinton was fiscally responsible, controlled federal spending and enacted policies that caused economic growth, hence, "he created the surplus."

Here's the data directly from the federal budget (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html).

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/budget.jpg

The data shows taht during his presidency, from 1992 to 2000:
- Spending increased by 29.49%.
- Tax revenues increased by 85.58%.

Mr. Clinton increased federal spending by almost 30% during his time. What saved his ass? His massive 85.58% increase in taxes.

That means he managed to increase taxes faster than he was even able to spend the money. Hence, your surplus which had nothing to do with his ability to balance anything. It had to do with the Democrats usual tactic of picking the American's pockets.

Much like Obama's idea to raise every single tax on this planet.

[masherscf]

a) Increase the fuck out of taxes


My brother-in-law, who has a Master's degree in Economics, manages derivatives and hedge funds and is a die-hard libertarian insists that raising taxes doesn't naturally increase government revenue because the taxes effect the tax base. Raising taxes may damage the economy resulting in a net revenue loss.

So, choice (a) is not that clear.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

So, choice (a) is not that clear.Worked for Billy.

[rabidbadger]

Yes, he's been hardly a Pub. Hence him acting like a Democrat (and ironically Democrats hating him.. go figure...)

More accurately, we fixed it.

There are really only three ways to eliminate a budget deficit:

a) Increase the fuck out of taxes
b) Stop spending
c) Do a & b

You are saying that Mr. Clinton was fiscally responsible, controlled federal spending and enacted policies that caused economic growth, hence, "he created the surplus."

Here's the data directly from the federal budget (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy06/browse.html).

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff99/Bojangles888/budget.jpg

The data shows taht during his presidency, from 1992 to 2000:
- Spending increased by 29.49%.
- Tax revenues increased by 85.58%. I suck with statistical analysis.[/qoute] Where did the 85% number come from. Not seeing it on your graph? HQ. ("honest question" ...we should create new shorthand for this new forum as we go along)


That means he managed to increase taxes faster than he was even able to spend the money. Hence, your surplus which had nothing to do with his ability to balance anything. It had to do with the Democrats usual tactic of picking the American's pockets.

Hell, I was a working man during this period. I did NOT see my taxes go up 85% Believe me, I woulda noticed, that woulda meant ramen one day a week instead of seven... ;)

Much like Obama's idea to raise every single tax on this planet.

Citation?

[rabidbadger]

Oh, and who are the "Phantom Republican Research Group?" if not for your link I'd be sceptical.

[diane]

Hi. I am actually in process of becoming an actuary so I am damn good with statistics. You want to know why the budget was balanced and the debt actually became smaller during Clinton. It was because Greenspan told him that either he raise taxes, get the budget under control and get the economy on track or he was going to devalue the dollar and raise interest rates and "Make him another Carter".

Go look at Ronald Reagan's fiscal numbers. The man spent money as it was rain water. Now given the time period when we were in the process of winning the cold war, it made sense. But it also did horrible things for long term fiscal stability for the government.

Greenspan and Clinton have even spoken about this conversation. He would have told whoever the president was at the time the same speech.

Now as for Bush, I think he is just bad all the way around. Sorry, he sucks. He is not a democrat or a republican, he is just an ass. A true republican would not listen to all the facts and then "go with what God told him". Don't buy it. And a compassionate Democrat wouldn't go to war and threaten everybody under the sun. To me he will go down in history as just a mistake.

Now, as for the racism issue, it is pretty much a tip off if you start a sentence with the word I am not a racist. Second, I was attacked physically by a white guy during college, that doesn't mean I hold every white guy accountable. Third, just because you are not prejudice against one race doesn't mean anything about other racists. Personally, I can't stand Swedes (this is an inside joke with a poster here who is Swedish and likes to say he can't stand Mexicans).

As for Obama raising taxes and Republicans not, well, have you read their tax plans. I mean not their three to five paragraph overviews but their actual tax plans? Honestly, not that different from a percentage overview, it is more a tax bracket issue difference as to who is paying (Mc Cain is more for flatting the difference between tax brackets while Obama lowers the middle brackets and raises the top bracket). If you take in the interest on the deficit (then actually Obama comes out in the lead on that one because Mc Cain has more spend now pay later in the plan). And then you have to take into account strong versus weak dollar in the fluctuating market and we all get headaches.

And if you don't think John Mc Cain isn't going to socialize at least some aspects of health care, well you might want to read those plans too. I work for a health insurance company. I know the actual hard data when it comes to what country excel with what disease, preventative care, pricing, etc. We are an international company and I see and analyze claims for all over. But most importantly, I know what my company is campaigning for. And BOTH candidates have them worried. And same with big pharma. So please don't assume that Mc Cain isn't going to change things up with that either. Honestly, there is room to improve things. I see a lot of waste cross my desk. But after reading their policy ideas, positions and analyzing their voting records, I am not sure who will actually cause a bigger price tag at the end of the day for health care. And, neither does the industry I work in.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I suck with statistical analysis.[/qoute] Where did the 85% number come from. Not seeing it on your graph? HQ. ("honest question" ...we should create new shorthand for this new forum as we go along)I'll show you tomorrow. I have to get to bed. The little one screams around 5am. It's awesome.

Hell, I was a working man during this period. I did NOT see my taxes go up 85% Believe me, I woulda noticed, that woulda meant ramen one day a week instead of seven... ;)I hate this argument. I see it all the time by Democrats. "It don't see it effecting me, not my problem!" The Dem's will always win the poor vote due to this class envy. It does effect you too, just in other ways.

Citation?Are you kidding me? You're voting for a guy and you don't even know all the taxes he wants to raise? Or is this another, it doesn't effect me, so screw the other guy argument?

During Obama's speech, he keeps talking about how he's going to raise income taxes on the "evil rich." The very people, small businessmen and women, who are providing about 80% of the new jobs our economy is producing.

He also said, and I quote: "I will eliminate capital gains taxes for the small businesses and start-ups that will create the high-wage, high-tech jobs of tomorrow."

However, small small businessmen generally don't pay capital gains taxes. They pay income taxes. Obama's plan is to raise the income taxes on these entrepreneurs. Telling the American people that he will cut their capital gains taxes is simply a charade; a charade the uneducated will buy. Then there's people who say the same thing you do: "It doesn't come out of my pocket!" Well, it actually does, you're just being too short sided. If you work for a company who can no longer afford you, say goodbye to your job. Or, the company will increase the costs of their goods. Causing you to spend more as a consumer.

Obama also said that McCain is "not proposing one penny of tax relief for over 100 million Americans." But, when you look at the statistics; you will see that the bottom 50% of income earners in this country pay only about 3% of all individual income taxes collected by the federal government. When you get to the bottom 40% that percentage figures drops to zero. Now just what is our current population figure? Around 300 million or so? That would bean that about 120 million Americans have no federal income tax liability at all. Yet there's Obama saying that McCain is offering no tax relief to these people. Relief from what?

Democrats and Obama feel citizens with higher income in this country have not "earned their way." Whatever the wealthy have was given to them, NOT EARNED. So Obama tells the adoring crowd that Republicans want to "Give more and more to those with the most, and hope that prosperity will trickle down to the rest." As I said, this is a standard Democrat theme. Wealthy people didn't earn what they have, it was given to them. And since it was given to them, there's nothing really all that wrong with taking more and more of it away from them ... just to even things out a bit. Remember, please, that Obama flat-out said that he wants to raise taxes on the rich not to bring in increased government revenues, but to make things more "fair."

Again... who are these people in the top tax bracket? Two-thirds of them are small business owners. Small business owners who provide 70% of existing jobs and 80% of all new jobs in our economy. These are the people Barack wants to nail with more taxes. Those evil people who actually worked hard to get where they are and produce jobs for our economy.

What did you do today badger?

Raising taxes on them ends up hurting the middle class and working people the most in terms of lost jobs, lower wages, and a weaker economy. So yes rabid, it does effect you.

Regarding his stance on taxes:

Obama would raise individual income taxes
Obama would raise the top capital gains tax rate by 33%
Obama would raise the top dividends tax rate by 33%
Obama would raise Social Security taxes by 16%
Obama would reinstate the death tax
Obama would impose several specified tax increases on corporations, including a new so-called windfall profits tax on oil compaines
Obama would cause higher taxes and tariffs on trade due to his protectionist trade polocies
Obama's health plan includes a new payroll tax on employers to pay for health insurance (lol, and just wait to see how high that one will get)

Now that's change you can believe in. What's left of it in your pocket that is.

Oh, and who are the "Phantom Republican Research Group?" if not for your link I'd be sceptical.Honestly I have no fucking clue, never heard of them. They just made the spiffy chart for me from those PDF files. What's that jobs line? Something about pirates stealing and artists doing something or other?

[diane]

Concerning the Death Tax, I am sorry I am going with one of my personal heroes, Warren Buffett on this one. He supports it. I plan on being in the top tax bracket in about two years when I am finally done with all my testing and education. Bring on the taxes if it means lowering the debt. And I am sorry, my son didn't earn my money, I earned it. So no, I don't care if the government takes it to pay down bills created 30 years ago. Just get rid of the debt.

And please, go look at who did the most on getting rid of federal debt in the last 50 years.

As for Obama's tax plan he is actually cutting the taxes on my current bracket. So I pay less now (when the money actually is more useful since it is a higher ratio in comparison to my expensives) and I will pay more later when my expenses are a lower ratio in comparison. Honestly, I am going with Greenspan and Buffett on that one. The debt is breaking our economy. If I could trust Mc Cain to do it I would vote for him, but in his plan he doesn't even budget for either war we are fighting. You simply can't ignore that big of an expense.

But I am just thinking about how the dollar becoming weaker has caused everything from gas to meat to become more expensive while my spending power is being weakened. But that's just me.

[ohhoe]

Disliking black people based on one event makes you racist, no matter the color of your daughter.

seriously

[tokenuser]

Regarding his stance on taxes:

Obama would raise individual income taxes
Obama would raise the top capital gains tax rate by 33%
Obama would raise the top dividends tax rate by 33%
Obama would raise Social Security taxes by 16%
Obama would reinstate the death tax
Obama would impose several specified tax increases on corporations, including a new so-called windfall profits tax on oil compaines
Obama would cause higher taxes and tariffs on trade due to his protectionist trade polocies
Obama's health plan includes a new payroll tax on employers to pay for health insurance (lol, and just wait to see how high that one will get)
You fail to mention that the tax increases are generally for the upper income bracket of $200K for an individual, or $250K for a family ... that goes for the income taxes, capital gains taxes, and dividends taxes.

16% increase in SocSec? Yeah - thats OK too. Its cheaper than paying for health insurance.

[yssman]

...Herowww...

YES! I'm definitely one of the "Obamicans" or whatever you wish to call it, otherwise, a Republican voting for Obama. Although I had originally planned to support Guliani early on in the election, his muddling through far right-wing politics was an immediate push away for me. Shortly thereafter I took a ride on the Ron Paul train, and while I still give him a lot of rhetorical support, Obama ended up taking it home for me last spring.

What it comes down to for me is that Obama has taken the common-sense approach to politics in a manner in which although I may not find agreeable in every situation, I find it understandable otherwise. I prefer his method of foreign policy (particularly meetings without precondition), his economic plans seem to make the best use of what is at hand by using what we know will work, and socially speaking... He is right to leave us alone, particularly with Net Neutrality (one of the largest reasons why I support him). No, Obama is not perfect. He is not "experienced" by most ways in which people quantify it, but when it is a campaign of ideas in a time in which we clearly need new ones to address our situations... Obama is the President we need now more than ever.

The GOP has left the people who counted upon it out in the cold, and consequently, my family and I will be voting for Obama in the fall. We cannot stand to spend another $1 Trillion in Iraq while losing the justified war in Afghanistan, we cannot stand to saber-rattle with Russia and Iran while the country at home is falling apart... We can't justify our mounting national debt, to not have equal opportunities for children in public schools, or for basic health care for those who cannot afford it.

Like Obama, it is time to get up and should "NO MORE!" to our GOP leaders, and to that end, I hope to see Obama elected on November 4th.

[esophagus]

seriously
I read that as a question. It made me laugh.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

You fail to mention that the tax increases are generally for the upper income bracket of $200K for an individual, or $250K for a family ... that goes for the income taxes, capital gains taxes, and dividends taxes.

16% increase in SocSec? Yeah - thats OK too. Its cheaper than paying for health insurance.Actually I addressed that quite a few times during my post and explained why it's still a relevant issue to the "not out of my pocket!" crowd.

As for Obama's tax plan he is actually cutting the taxes on my current bracket.
I didn't notice anything more out of my pocket...I think Obama should raise everyone's taxes except for rabid's and Diane's. Hey, it doesn't effect you, right! Boo-ya!

[scoobydiesel]

The reason i normaly stay away from this kind of talk is because i dont want to lose respect or look at someone a diferent way but computoman just made me do that...

My family falls under Rep i honestly have yet to make a choice yet but i have to say My mom looks to vote for Obama and My dad is sticking to his ol rep status. but he did kinda rethink it with Palin and what not.

[burkhartmj]

Good lord, I'm terrified to say this, but I agree with Crumbles :eek:

Also, I've heard nothing but horror stories about Canada's socialized healthcare, I'd love to hear firsthand from a Canadian what their experience with it was, but as of right now, I am staunchly against universal healthcare. After reading up a slew of both sides' plans, McCain's makes more sense to me.

Oh, last thing, I support the flat tax, so naturally neither tax plan really appeals to me, but considering my parents already pay well over 50% of their income to the government being just under the 200k bracket, McCain's looks mighty better since he won't be messing with us as much.

[bigshotprof]

"he is a damn pussy who lick Stalin's balls if he was paid for it".


Does anybody know Cheney's number? I have a hundred bucks and a YouTube account!

(oh . . . and a jar I picked up at a flea market that the dude SWORE contains Stalin's balls.)

[diane]

Actually I addressed that quite a few times during my post and explained why it's still a relevant issue to the "not out of my pocket!" crowd.


I think Obama should raise everyone's taxes except for rabid's and Diane's. Hey, it doesn't effect you, right! Boo-ya!

I take it you didn't read the rest of my post? Or are you taking things out of context? I specifically said that I will be in the top tax bracket in roughly 3ish years. And then yes, the tax increase would impact me and I still am in support of it. I really wouldn't care if they raised my taxes back to what they were before Bush's tax cut. I remember getting my paycheck at the time and going, wait, this tax cut gave me a $1.57 a week more back? That's it. I now make more money, but even with that the difference is small between the two.

Well to have a balanced budget take it. In fact take $5 a paycheck, just make the dollar strong again. And make the roads and bridges better. And rebuild my beloved military. As a military brat who has dozens upon dozens of friends serving and choosing not to reenlist, I want someone who doesn't play with my friends as if they are army action figures.

[diane]

Does anybody know Cheney's number? I have a hundred bucks and a YouTube account!

(oh . . . and a jar I picked up at a flea market that the dude SWORE contains Stalin's balls.)

Lol. My grandpa always talked to me like I was one of his military friends (he served in WWII and Korea before retiring). He had one hell of a mouth.

[esophagus]

I'd love to hear firsthand from a Canadian what their experience with it wasI personally love it. There are some wait times, but I am willing to sit them out. Something you need you can expect to get. Something you want, or that might be a bit convenient for you, you can expect to wait a bit.

Edit: I'm not saying I think the system is the better way of doing things, though. I think both ways have their individual merits and are perfectly viable.

[rabidbadger]

Actually I addressed that quite a few times during my post and explained why it's still a relevant issue to the "not out of my pocket!" crowd.


I think Obama should raise everyone's taxes except for rabid's and Diane's. Hey, it doesn't effect you, right! Boo-ya!

dude. you are really grasping at strawmen, now. Diane spelled it out in NO uncertaing terms. Much better than I ever could. And you resort to this?

I get most of my health care paid for through work, and we are a tiny company of 4 (four!) people. And the owner gets her Health insurance through her partner's job. Yet still my boss jumps through all sorts of hoops to get us health insurance. Know why? Cause she knows it's good for her business. If I get sick and be out of work a month 'cause I couldn't afford preventative doctor visits, Her profits would suffer major. But because I can see a doctor for an hour everty month or so... I can get the meds and such that others can't get. And I stay happy and productive at work. If I vanished for a month due to illness, she would be screwed.

She would lose more money from lack of productivity than she would by not helping me with health care.

Thing is, NOT every owner of small business can do this. They might want to, but can't. Too small a person/profit differential, maybe? I don't know money that well. But If we didn't provide insurance for us, we woulda been gone ages ago.

[yssman]

Well, either way, we're getting government-funded healthcare. The only (major) differences between McCain's plan and Obama's is the way in which the money trades hands. To that end, I prefer Obama's, as a $5000 tax credit from McCain isn't enough to keep most people insured... Especially if that is all a family would receive.

I'm personally voting more on taxes (going for that 5%+ tax break from Obama!), foreign policy, and education issues. McCain of eight years ago would have been great, McCain of the last two years, not so much...