Ron Paul

[kristen_]

Someone mentioned him in the TRS thread so I know I'm not alone when I say... I'm so very disappointed he didn't get further.
---Especially since Biden is an elitist pig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvgQKVME1sE)and the McCain camp is just ... well laughable. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zP8uFPWxaA)

Ron Paul may have cured my apathy but have no fear because the dem/repubs restored it!

[quix]

I wish Ron Paul's more libertarian brand of conservatism was the mainstream of the Republican Party because while I disagree with him, I think he's an honorable man who is intellectually consistent unlike the mainstream of the GOP.

[sir_scutter]

I liked most of his positions and I feel if he was truly able to speak his thoughts without fear of being completely ostracized by politicos, you'd see me agreeing with even more.

I was actually very surprised how far he got with how little he was covered. There were a lot of people supporting him and although they weren't all the people I'd get along with, it truly helped spread this brand of message.

Mary Ruwart would have been an ideal presidential candidate; too bad the LP went downhill. That's politics, though.

[ohhoe]

ron paul is a nutjob.

[ryudo]

I wish Ron Paul's more libertarian brand of conservatism was the mainstream of the Republican Party because while I disagree with him, I think he's an honorable man who is intellectually consistent unlike the mainstream of the GOP.

I feel the same way.
I agreed with some things but disagreed with others he seemed genuine unlike Obama/McCaine.

[esophagus]

I don't think its entirely coincidence that Ron Paul looks like a clown. Not to mention his positions.

I can understand thinking going to war in Iraq is excessive. It is. But thinking that we should do nothing about situations like the genocide in Darfur.

Withdrawing from the UN? Good call, Ron. I hope that the dripping sarcasm didn't need to be pointed out, but just in case. Especially considering that he thinks America should just have free trade with everyone. I don't see how not having relations with them is a good way to do that.

Jesus, hes even against the POST OFFICE. Not to mention the federal reserve, the IRS, and social security. If Ron Paul was president, the country wouldn't need a president.

He has some policies I agree with, but for the most part I just find him nuts.

[ariastar]

Ron Paul strikes me as the type who'd try to make it a legal requirement that we all be Christian, or at least pretend it, while he strips away what few rights gays have while pumping more troops into Iraq. I'm nauseated that he made it as far as he did. We don't need a religious agenda in this country.

[burkhartmj]

Ron Paul strikes me as the type who'd try to make it a legal requirement that we all be Christian, or at least pretend it, while he strips away what few rights gays have while pumping more troops into Iraq. I'm nauseated that he made it as far as he did. We don't need a religious agenda in this country.

Being Christian, I....well, I agree. Ron Paul made it so far just because he was a breath of fresh air for college kids, but he truly is utterly nuts. The whole separation of church and state thing was to protect all religions' rights, not just christianity's [had nothing to do with keeping religion out of gov't though, just read it for yourself].

Not to mention half, if not all of the services and bureaus he wants to do away with are absolutely necessary to run a goddamned country. I supported him for about 2 days, but when I started reading up on him, I was totally freaked out by his insane platform.

[sir_scutter]

...the services and bureaus he wants to do away with are absolutely necessary to run a goddamned country.

prove it

[diane]

prove it

Simple, are you planning to just back to bartering for things and services or would prefer to use money?

Who makes it or does everyone have their own?

How would it be valued?

How would we exchange it for money if we want to do business, work or visit a different country?

I truly like your belief in people to behave like rational sane adults, which is really the backbone of your argument. But all I have to do is tune on the tv and listen to people going on about why creationism should be taught in science while in line at a pharmacy (I mean really, can that get anymore funny-why not just say I don't have a bloody clue what the theory of evolution is and how it is the back bone for modern medicine and that heck anytime you take an antibiotic you are having a tiny evolutionary experiment going on in your body) or saying that we should bomb the whole middle east and be done with it (Saw both last night) and makes me question people being rational.

I see humanity as being in the adolcent phase right now. We are quick to anger, argue and fight. We are horny as all get out. But we have no problem calling other people bullies or whores. I can't wait until we get there. In fact I would love for it to happen in my son's life time. I am just not holding my breath.

[sir_scutter]

Simple, a... money?

Who makes it or...have their own?

How ...valued?

How would we e..., work or visit a different country?

I truly like your belief in people to behave like rational sane adults, which is really the backbone of your argument. But ...the whole middle east and be done with it (Saw both last night) and makes me question people being rational.

I see humanity as being...here. In fact I would love for it to happen in my son's life time. I am just not holding my breath.

First of all, I don't believe this can be done overnight. This view must be looked at carefully and is absolutely not for everyone.

(post continued, problem with forums)

[sir_scutter]

(cont. from before)
Addressing what should be taught in schools and what controls the US military. Easy: they don't exist with a small/non-existent government. In the free market all schools will be privately owned (but not to say not all would be welcome) and the parents can decide to send their kid to the atheist school who teaches logic or the christian school who teaches religion. (or a variety of different schools)

I really encourage you to look into the Free State Project, diane, if you are looking for something like this happening in your children's lifetime. It does require action, though.

(continued in next post, problem with forums)

[sir_scutter]

(cont.)
Individuals trade on whatever means they wish, (trading, bartering) nothing will be regulated by a government, but that's not to say there won't be standards. Just like there's USB slots on all computers, there will be a general currency that people will want to use. Probably backed by ACTUAL currency, since federal reserve notes just lead to inflation. Need solid backing system of actual stuff. There'll be competing currencies, & probably different exchange rates, the market will decide which is best by supply and demand. It would obviously be valued by the person holding it, & trades would be based on that. Just like today (but the gov't currently forces all to value the FRNs to be something that they're not). Been looking into it, & leaving it up to the free market to handle makes perfect sense, and surely not something I have space to explain here. I can probably find a link though to some pretty in depth explanations of how such things would work (not to say it's perfect, but it gets the mind going) in a free market system.
(end)

[tokenuser]

Wow - there's an education system that will keep the US as a leader into the later part of the 21st Century.

Stem cell research? Bah ... who needs it, we have prayer circles (http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/spiritual-interventions.htm).
What the current exchange rate? Can I trade you two chickens and poker chip for mention in your sermon?
You don't take poker chips? I have $100 here ... its backed by the federal gold reserve. Will that work for you? How about I exchange it for some antibiotics?

[sir_scutter]

The point is free choice. I can't say I agree with any of those people who would want to send their kids to the christian schools, but at least I wouldn't have to pay for it. Those parents who's kids use the school will pay for it.

****

Also, diane, in this system one wouldn't have to expect everyone to act like mature adults. In the current system, I have to deal with them, because my money is taken to pay them in one way or another. In a completely voluntary society, if I don't like morons, I can ignore them. But I'm guessing I'll want some to make me a chicken sandwich now and again. That would be a voluntary purchase of goods and services though.

[diane]

The point is free choice. I can't say I agree with any of those people who would want to send their kids to the christian schools, but at least I wouldn't have to pay for it. Those parents who's kids use the school will pay for it.

****

Also, diane, in this system one wouldn't have to expect everyone to act like mature adults. In the current system, I have to deal with them, because my money is taken to pay them in one way or another. In a completely voluntary society, if I don't like morons, I can ignore them. But I'm guessing I'll want some to make me a chicken sandwich now and again. That would be a voluntary purchase of goods and services though.

It is hard to ignore someone who lights a cross in your yard (most recent 20 years ago). You are assuming that all the idiots will do mild, non-violent things.That is where we differ. Maybe its because I have read Dahmer's transcripts and have seen a friend shot for wearing red in the wrong neighborhood. I don't assume that at all.

Maybe if we lived with Batman I might be willing to try it.

[diane]

As for the free state project, this far from the first attempt at this. In history books it is normally referred to "attempt to start an utopian society". The late 1890s through 1900s have about half a dozen really famous ones. Maybe this time it will succeed.

But in all honesty, I prefer being able to know my money is good from the time I leave the house to the time I get to San Diego Comic Con to buy goodies. But I am just a spoiled eltist pig apparently (the website has links to some odd stuff). And I don't know how I feel about the aspect of entryism with this. But I hope you like NH. It is a beautiful state.

But this isn't at all what I want for my child. I believe in people helping each other, in service and compassionate giving. According to the philosophy you are espousing volunteer organizations like the Red Cross could not function. So if I want to help hurricane victims in New Orleans or earthquake victims in China, aside from physically going there and that raises more issues with the lack of money thing, how do I help?

[sir_scutter]

It is hard to ignore someone who lights a cross in your yard.

I agree. Protect yourself. Someone trespasses and does something like that (vandalism) you have the right to self defend your property, which isn't true all over the country today (law-wise).

[diane]

I agree. Protect yourself. Someone trespasses and does something like that (vandalism) you have the right to self defend your property, which isn't true all over the country today (law-wise).

Yes it is. Just because my state doesn't want people to have bazookas doesn't mean I can't defend myself or my property. What law prevents that? What state? I have never once heard of this and given that most of my family belongs to the NRA I am pretty positive I would have heard this if that law actually existed. You are distorting current laws to make them come across and stripping all rights. That has not EVER happened.

This whole concept that only guns, and big ones at that, can defend a person is false. Let me remind you for four airplanes that were taken over with boxcutters. Violence and self defense are not contingent on guns by any stretch.

[burkhartmj]

Just gonna throw in my 2 cents on the evolution/creation thing Diane mentioned

Any Christian who knows jack about the world knows microevolution and natural selection are as factual as gravity. Any Christian who denies that doesn't have a clue what the hell they are talking about. Macroevolution is what is disagreed with, and that is NOT the backbone of all science. I agree microevolution and natural selection are, but have yet to be convinced of macro. Now I'm not afraid I'll go to hell or anything if I believe in evolution as the origin of all life, but I haven't seen enough evidence supporting it to change my mind yet. If it was in classrooms, Creationism would be like a one day thing, my only concern about introducing it is confusing all the dumbasses who hear half of what is taught and comprehend even less. Havin just come out of highschool a year and a half ago, the sheer numbers of those people is still tragically fresh in my mind.

EDIT: Oh, and yea I agree with you in every other way Diane :)

[phatlip12]

Ron Paul strikes me as the type who'd try to make it a legal requirement that we all be Christian, or at least pretend it, while he strips away what few rights gays have while pumping more troops into Iraq. I'm nauseated that he made it as far as he did. We don't need a religious agenda in this country.

That sounds like the exact opposite of Ron Paul actually. He stands for the constitution more then almost every other candidate excluding Kucinich. That and he's against the War in Iraq BIG TIME.

I don't agree with a lot of things he says but respect him for being a strict constitutionalist.

[phatlip12]

prove it

He's against the IRS and pretty much taxes in general. Roads, schools and hospitals don't appear from thin air. That and police officers and firemen aren't doing the job because they like getting shot at and burned. Money doesn't just fall out of the sky. Well, unless you're the Bush administration and borrow it all from China that is.

So I guess that would be your solution because taxes are necessary to pay for things. I can understand debating what they should and shouldn't pay for but to say they're not necessary is....hilarious.

[esophagus]

That sounds like the exact opposite of Ron Paul actually. He stands for the constitution more then almost every other candidate excluding Kucinich. That and he's against the War in Iraq BIG TIME.

I don't agree with a lot of things he says but respect him for being a strict constitutionalist.From Wikipedia:In 2005, Paul introduced the We the People Act, which would have removed "any claim involving the laws, regulations, or policies of any State or unit of local government relating to the free exercise or establishment of religion" from the jurisdiction of federal courts.[125] If made law, this provision would permit state, county, and local governments to decide whether to allow displays of religious text and imagery.Constitutionalist as that may be, its the religious agenda that Aria was talking about.

[phatlip12]

From Wikipedia:Constitutionalist as that may be, its the religious agenda that Aria was talking about.

I was mainly referring to him standing for civil liberties and opposing the war. That and from what I read he doesn't seem to be against gay rights. I don't believe he supports marriage but neither does Obama. He's against a constitutional ban of gay marriage and a ban on civil unions too I believe.

He IS pro life but then again he's also a republican so thats to be expected I suppose.

[esophagus]

I was mainly referring to him standing for civil liberties and opposing the war. That and from what I read he doesn't seem to be against gay rights. I don't believe he supports marriage but neither does Obama. He's against a constitutional ban of gay marriage and a ban on civil unions too I believe.

He IS pro life but then again he's also a republican so thats to be expected I suppose.Sorry, I didn't see the war comment that she threw into the post. Definitely off-base. Although, I dislike that he is against the war because he is against anything going on outside of America. He even wants to leave the UN.

And as far as gay rights goes, he is anti-gay rights. He believes states should be allowed to keep their sodomy laws, agrees that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed in the military, and voted against same-sex adoption. On top of the anti-gay marriage that you already mentioned.

[kristen_]

And as far as gay rights goes, he is anti-gay rights. He believes states should be allowed to keep their sodomy laws, agrees that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed in the military, and voted against same-sex adoption. On top of the anti-gay marriage that you already mentioned.



Start watching at 0:35:30
The misinformation about Ron Paul is so prolific. Everyone just listens to what the media tells them. Has Ariastar ever listened to what he has to say? He addresses what he said about the gold standard in that interview also. I suggest listening to the full video.

[esophagus]

What interview?

[phatlip12]

Start watching at 0:35:30
The misinformation about Ron Paul is so prolific. Everyone just listens to what the media tells them. Has Ariastar ever listened to what he has to say? He addresses what he said about the gold standard in that interview also. I suggest listening to the full video.

You forgot to post the video you're referring to.

[sir_scutter]

Yes it...ch.

OK, well I'm speaking of Florida, where my aunt resides. She told me of a story (great citation, eh?) of where a man was awaken early in the morning to hear someone on his property messing with his car. It seems that the state/local officials were repossessing it for whatever reason. The owner came out with a shotgun (not knowing who it was) and told the man to leave. The man left and brought back police to arrest/fine the man for pointing a shotgun at the guy trespassing. My understanding is that you aren't legally allowed to protect your own property like this.

She contrasted this story with the fact that you CAN protect your person in this manor where a guy was not punished for shooting a man on the road in a "threatening" road-rage/accident situation.

I could be mistaken though. But what kinda crap is it when your dog can't even attack intruders without you being sued.

[masherscf]

I think there's a distinction if the person enters the house or not.

[sir_scutter]

He's against the IRS and pretty much taxes in general. Roads, schools and hospitals don't appear from thin air. That and police officers and firemen aren't doing the job because they like getting shot at and burned. Money doesn't just fall out of the sky. Well, unless you're the Bush administration and borrow it all from China that is.

So I guess that would be your solution because taxes are necessary to pay for things. I can understand debating what they should and shouldn't pay for but to say they're not necessary is....hilarious.

Who isn't against the IRS? Roads, schools, and hospitals are created by men, not gov't. How do you explain the placement of gas stations? They aren't gov't mandated and placed. Why do you think these things wouldn't exist without gov't? So many wonderful things are created within the free market and I have no doubt that with demand there will come supply.

[masherscf]

So many wonderful things are created within the free market and I have no doubt that with demand there will come supply.


In theory...too bad there are no free markets. People build gas stations where they're allowed by zoning laws.

[sir_scutter]

In theory...too bad there are no free markets. People build gas stations where they're allowed by zoning laws.

But they are put there by men and women in search of profit and have an interest/incentive to do so. No one mandates or forces gas stations to be built. Nor is anyone forced to pay for them.

[masherscf]

But they are put there by men and women in search of profit and have an interest/incentive to do so. No one mandates or forces gas stations to be built. Nor is anyone forced to pay for them.

Of course, but to suggest that the location of a business or availability of service is governed only by the invisible hand of the market is wrong. If it was, a lot of places wouldn't have telephones, electricity or running water.

[sir_scutter]

Of course, but to suggest that the location of a business or availability of service is governed only by the invisible hand of the market is wrong. If it was, a lot of places wouldn't have telephones, electricity or running water.

It's not an invisible hand, that's absurd. It's supply and demand and interest and incentive. If there's some people around who want a service, someone who is willing to start up a business will offer a service to those people. It's simple market/economics... I think.

Someone out there is willing to do a job if someone is willing to pay.

[masherscf]

It's not an invisible hand, that's absurd. It's supply and demand and interest and incentive. If there's some people around who want a service, someone who is willing to start up a business will offer a service to those people. It's simple market/economics... I think.

Someone out there is willing to do a job if someone is willing to pay.

Here's the simple economics. In the Thirties, forties and fifties it was too expensive for private utilities to install electricity and telephones to most of rural America. It's not that they weren't willing to do it or the people weren't willing to pay. They couldn't pay. End of story.

If it wasn't for the Rural Electrification Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_Electrification_Act) and a kindly nudge for the US government, these places would still not have those services.

We're about to go through the same stress with rural internet and wireless cellular phone access. So, stay tuned.

All things being equal, the market usually works itself out. But, ever so often, it needs a nudge in the right direction.