Flag Burning

[phatlip12]

Do you think flag burning should be legal or illegal? I had this conversation with someone recently and they said illegal.

I think it should be allowed. It's free speech. All because I don't support it doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. What do you guys think and why?

[kowgod]

I support the universal right to burn flags.

[joey85]

Burning the flag is a statement, it is a form of expression and is/always should be covered under the First Amendment.

[Music]

Eh, I see like 30-40 on the way to work. Wouldn't mind burning a few...

[masherscf]

Flag burning is stupid.

[phatlip12]

Flag burning is stupid.

Oh I agree 100%. If I was driving down the road and saw someone doing so I can guarantee you I'd roll my window down and shout some colorful words at them.

What I'm saying is it shouldn't be illegal- despite me disagreeing with it so much. Freedom of speech doesn't work if you permit one group of people to have the right and others to not.

Remember- having the freedom of speech means all the idiots do too. Thats why groups such as the KKK are allowed to exist. It's a catch 22.

[sir_scutter]

Well, of course, I will stand by anyone's right to their freedom of expression, so I wouldn't force anyone against burning a flag. But if you are one who holds a certain piece of fabric close to heart and truly dislike those who do it, then you absolutely have the right to not associate with those people. Same with anything, ostracism goes a long way. Don't do business with people who do things that offend you to an extreme if you think that it would be an appropriate way to deal with it.

On a side note, I'd like to share this video from Penn & Teller's live show in Las Vegas which illustrates how burning the flag is somewhat symbolic to those freedoms/rights us humans have. Maybe a flag could be burned in celebration of the freedom of speech, rather than just in disgust of what it stands for (both of which I would consider burning the flag to be doing).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETiXXf0ZqRQ

[phatlip12]

Well, of course, I will stand by anyone's right to their freedom of expression, so I wouldn't force anyone against burning a flag. But if you are one who holds a certain piece of fabric close to heart and truly dislike those who do it, then you absolutely have the right to not associate with those people. Same with anything, ostracism goes a long way. Don't do business with people who do things that offend you to an extreme if you think that it would be an appropriate way to deal with it.

On a side note, I'd like to share this video from Penn & Teller's live show in Las Vegas which illustrates how burning the flag is somewhat symbolic to those freedoms/rights us humans have. Maybe a flag could be burned in celebration of the freedom of speech, rather than just in disgust of what it stands for (both of which I would consider burning the flag to be doing).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETiXXf0ZqRQ

Heres the beauty of having the freedom of speech. It gives you the right to stand right across the street from the idiots burning the flag and allows you to proudly wave it in support of what it stands for.

[sir_scutter]

Heres the beauty of having the freedom of speech. It gives you the right to stand right across the street from the idiots burning the flag and allows you to proudly wave it in support of what it stands for.

So true, and so beautiful.

Also remember, freedom includes the freedom to be stupid.

[masherscf]

With all due respect to Penn Gillette, there are better ways to celebrate freedom than act of disrespect. How about burning a Bible or pissing on the Quron? There's no laws against being a rude douchbag, nor should there be. But, excusing a trollsome act by dressing it up and calling it a celebration is pretty lame.

[sir_scutter]

With all due respect to Penn Gillette, there are better ways to celebrate freedom than act of disrespect. How about burning a Bible or pissing on the Quron? There's no laws against being a rude douchbag, nor should there be. But, excusing a trollsome act by dressing it up and calling it a celebration is pretty lame.

Well one may see it as disrespect, but again, that's the beauty of freedom of speech. You don't have the right to not be offended. There isn't any feelings-insurance. Again, if you hate the douche who is burning a flag, don't associate with him. If you feel you must punch him in the face, do it and accept the consequences. Burning a flag is not violent--punching/arresting someone is.

[masherscf]

Well one may see it as disrespect, but again, that's the beauty of freedom of speech. You don't have the right to not be offended. There isn't any feelings-insurance. Again, if you hate the douche who is burning a flag, don't associate with him. If you feel you must punch him in the face, do it and accept the consequences. Burning a flag is not violent--punching/arresting someone is.

Who said anything about punching someone? Burn baby burn. I just think it's silly to put whipped cream on a turd and call it sundae.

[sir_scutter]

Who said anything about punching someone? Burn baby burn. I just think it's silly to put whipped cream on a turd and call it sundae.

Haha. OK, fair enough. :P

[phatlip12]

With all due respect to Penn Gillette, there are better ways to celebrate freedom than act of disrespect. How about burning a Bible or pissing on the Quron? There's no laws against being a rude douchbag, nor should there be. But, excusing a trollsome act by dressing it up and calling it a celebration is pretty lame.

As a Christian and American I support a persons right to burn the bible. All because I don't agree with it doesn't mean it should be outlawed. I'm not calling it a celebration- I'm asking if it should be allowed or not and stated why I think it should be.

EDIT

I just noticed where you said you think it should still be allowed despite disagreeing.

[xibalba]

If people have the right to burn flags I should have the right to burn people...But I know that will never happen. :(

[masherscf]

I just noticed where you said you think it should still be allowed despite disagreeing.

There's no question about the it being allowed as a form of free speech. I just think there are better ways for people to express themselves. I think abusing symbology is overrated.

[sir_scutter]

If people have the right to burn flags I should have the right to burn people...But I know that will never happen. :(

That's sick. You value a flag the same as a human being? I know you're joking, but c'mon.

[sir_scutter]

There's no question about the it being allowed as a form of free speech. I just think there are better ways for people to express themselves. I think abusing symbology is overrated.

Cool opinion. I somewhat agree. I have better ways of doing things than burning things to protest/celebrate things. Although lighting those fuses to light fireworks on Independence Day is pretty damn fun.

[smeerkaas]

Flag burning is stupid.


So is censorship

[sir_scutter]

So is censorship

Well let's be fair, he didn't necessarily say he was in favor of it being "outlawed", did he? He just said he doesn't like it.

[xibalba]

I know you're joking, but c'mon.

Joking? no... I tolerate humans, very few I like.

[masherscf]

So is censorship

Agreed.

[esophagus]

Burning the flag is just stupid. So is being the guy who gets outraged and tries to outlaw it.

[sir_scutter]

Joking? no... I tolerate humans, very few I like.

Burning the flag is just stupid. So is being the guy who gets outraged and tries to outlaw it.

I'll let you know what is completely and utterly twisted.. is someone willing to hurt people for their beliefs. Then again I guess that's some of gov't.... mostly unintentional or violence through proxy, but you rarely hear the gov't people admit it.

[phatlip12]

There's no question about the it being allowed as a form of free speech. I just think there are better ways for people to express themselves. I think abusing symbology is overrated.

Agreed.

[esophagus]

I don't see how that is relevant to my post. I was just pointing out my feelings on flagburning. I don't think it should be illegal, I just think it should be commonsense not to do it. If you want to do it, so be it. I just think there are much more productive, less spiteful things to be doing.

[sir_scutter]

I don't see how that is relevant to my post. I was just pointing out my feelings on flagburning. I don't think it should be illegal, I just think it should be commonsense not to do it.

Oh, no. Haha. What I was trying to do is quote that guy's post, then respond to yours saying "hey, you're right, but check out THIS crazy guy"

that's all, i know what you meant

[esophagus]

Oh, alright. Haha.

[xibalba]

Oh, no. Haha. What I was trying to do is quote that guy's post, then respond to yours saying "hey, you're right, but check out THIS crazy guy"

that's all, i know what you meant

I am not crazy I am pro peace, just anti-human. :D

[phatlip12]

I am not crazy I am pro peace, just anti-human. :D

No, you're crazy but we love you.

:D

haha

[sir_scutter]

No, you're crazy but we love you.

:D

haha

heh...hah.....oh boy *gulp* ;)

[phatlip12]

heh...hah.....oh boy *gulp* ;)

Whats the matter big boy? You jealous? ;) ;)


lmao

[sir_scutter]

Whats the matter big boy? You jealous? ;) ;)


lmao

Hey, I'm a minority here. I know when to STFU. heh

[xibalba]

I don't think crazy describes me very well...hmmm
I think quite clearly know things I would like to be done would be considered wrong, evil, morally unacceptable.

[sir_scutter]

I don't think crazy describes me very well...hmmm
I think quite clearly know things I would like to be done would be considered wrong, evil, morally unacceptable.

Wrong/evil by your morals?

[esophagus]

Wrong/evil by your morals?I t hink he's just trying to be funny. :rolleyes:

[sir_scutter]

I t hink he's just trying to be funny. :rolleyes:

Well this is an entertainment forum. Revision3 is fueled by entertaining people and subjects. This politics board really isn't fitting.

[esophagus]

Well this is an entertainment forum. Revision3 is fueled by entertaining people and subjects. This politics board really isn't fitting.Agreed. Can't say I found it funny myself, anyways.

[xibalba]

Wrong/evil by your morals?

The morals of the majority of others.

Why does everyone always think I am joking or trying to be funny when I mention this.......

[esophagus]

Because we're having a discussion and you came in and mentioned how you wish you could burn people?

[xibalba]

well back on topic of course it should be legal.

[sir_scutter]

The morals of the majority of others.

Popular doesn't always mean right.

[straylightrise]

I'm for flag burning - as long as no one gets hurt or anything damaged. If you're pissed off at your country you have every right to display it as long as its not super duper dangerous

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Republican answer: Legal, it's free speech.
Democrat answer: Legal, so long as there is equal time spent to burn other countries flags at the same time.

[masherscf]

Republican answer: Legal, it's free speech.
Democrat answer: Legal, so long as there is equal time spent to burn other countries flags at the same time.

I think the actual Democratic response is that they're against flag burning because causes global warming.

[ariastar]

If I buy or make or am gifted a flag, it's mine to do with as I damn well please as long as I'm not hurting anyone with it. Forcing oaths and patriotism on people goes against the freedom we are supposed to have in this country, against the free speech. The line is drawn where others are hurt or at risk of being hurt.

[ariastar]

I've burned one flag, and that was my dad's flag after he died. My mom didn't feel it was right to fly it anymore. My dad was pissed at what this country was becoming, though believed in what the flag was supposed to stand for. If one of those things it stands for is freedom of speech, it seems disrespectful to the flag itself to say flag-burning shouldn't be allowed.

That said, having grown up in a southern family that likened whites and blacks marrying and having babies to humans and monkeys (thankfully my parents did their best to raise me and my brother to believe skin color matters jack shit, we're all humans, but still, I saw the beliefs of my grandparents on both sides, and have argued with them before), when I think of burning flags, I think of KKK stuff and feel more fear. I know the majority of people burning flags probably aren't going to go out and lynch someone for the color of his skin, but that's the first image that comes to mind.

[sir_scutter]

Beautiful words. Even my old high school friends didn't realize the importance of freedom of protest to this degree. Again, no one advocating physically hurting others or others' property.

[rabidbadger]

Do you think if one was to burn a piece of fabric that looked like the flag, but had 51 stars and 14 stripes, the anti flag burners would be ok with that, seeing it aint "really" the flag? I mean that would be a symbolic gesture but not desecration.

Oh, and isn't the way to properly dispose of a flag, that is tattered and too decrepit to fly, is by burning it?

Flags also arent supposed to touch the ground either, what if as a protest I held a large flag in the proper manner, but let the bottom corner trail on the ground behind me?

Flags flown upside down are a sign of distress, so if one did that, would it be "disrespectful" even if to me it might mean, "I love my country, but it needs help?"

I got thoughts on "pledging allegience" too, but that should be a seperate thread, partly cause I was raised in a foreign country, so would want a more international debate on that sort of thing.

[ariastar]

Beautiful words. Even my old high school friends didn't realize the importance of freedom of protest to this degree. Again, no one advocating physically hurting others or others' property.

It seems an insult to the flag to try to defend it by saying a freedom shouldn't be allowed. Hypocritical, a bit.

[skyz]

Popular doesn't always mean right.

right isn't always popular

[esophagus]

right isn't always popularThats the EXACT same thing he said.

If the popular isn't right, that would make right unpopular.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I think the actual Democratic response is that they're against flag burning because causes global warming.lol, OK, I like yours better.

[masherscf]

Thats the EXACT same thing he said.

If the popular isn't right, that would make right unpopular.

Actually, it's not.

Observe,

Elvis is dead.

All Dead are Elvis. Not the same statement at all.

[esophagus]

Actually, it's not.

Observe,

Elvis is dead.

All Dead are Elvis. Not the same statement at all.No, not in that instance.

Popular isn't always right. This makes popular sometimes wrong. It also makes unpopular sometimes right.

Right isn't always popular. This, again, means that unpopular is sometimes right, and popular sometimes wrong.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Observe,

Elvis is dead.

All Dead are Elvis. Not the same statement at all.What if there was a sandwich called "Elvis" and whoever ate it, was killed. So, they stopped making the Elvis.

Then both those statements would be true. :D

[masherscf]

What if there was a sandwich called "Elvis" and whoever ate it, was killed. So, they stopped making the Elvis.

Then both those statements would be true. :D

Both statements could be true. It doesn''t change that they aren't equivalent statements.

However, if both statements are true. The following statement is also true.

You're dead if and only if you're Elvis.

[ariastar]

Ahhh, semantics.

[masherscf]

Ahhh, semantics.

Not semantics, It's first order logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic


"A implies B" is not the same as "B implies A" or "A if and only of B"

[tokenuser]

I got thoughts on "pledging allegience" too, but that should be a seperate thread, partly cause I was raised in a foreign country, so would want a more international debate on that sort of thing.The wattle, the wattle ... the symbol of our land. You can stick it in a bottle, you can hold it in your hand.

AMEN.

[esophagus]

Not semantics, It's first order logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic


"A implies B" is not the same as "B implies A" or "A if and only of B"
Okay, if Skyz would like to come in and explain her "philosophical debating" I will agree she had a point, but I'm seriously doubting she does.

[tokenuser]

Not semantics, It's first order logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic


"A implies B" is not the same as "B implies A" or "A if and only of B"... and is only true if the assumption (predicate) A is true.

[burkhartmj]

Do you think if one was to burn a piece of fabric that looked like the flag, but had 51 stars and 14 stripes, the anti flag burners would be ok with that, seeing it aint "really" the flag? I mean that would be a symbolic gesture but not desecration.

It would still piss 'em off. It's the symbolism that so enrages people, not the semantics of how many stars or stripes

Oh, and isn't the way to properly dispose of a flag, that is tattered and too decrepit to fly, is by burning it?

That's done in respect, so a completely different symbolism is associated

Flags also arent supposed to touch the ground either, what if as a protest I held a large flag in the proper manner, but let the bottom corner trail on the ground behind me?

What few people noticed might be angry, but this is noticeably less disrespect than burning the flag. Oh, fun fact, if a flag touches the ground [presumably by accident], it should be burned out of respect.

Flags flown upside down are a sign of distress, so if one did that, would it be "disrespectful" even if to me it might mean, "I love my country, but it needs help?"

The upside down thing is as much about showing solidarity of the area doing it as distress [I believe the sniper shootings here in VA made all the gov't building flip their flags in remembrance on the anniversary], so flipping it by yourself defeats the purpose for the most part, but it wouldn't piss anyone off.

EDIT: damn, forgot to to throw in my oft repeated 2 cents, I'm for it being legal, but consider it a vile act. I utilize scutter's association suggestion for people like that.

[frankiethewaffle]

Ok, this was a long string so I skipped ahead an will only state my opinion. Which is somewhat split. One is what I believe and what I would do.

I would never burn the Flag. Any Flag for that matter. Who the F' do I think I am to disgrace the pride and representation of any Country.

If I were to ever drop an American Flag. I would go through all of the proper steps to make the destruction is proper. I would even cry at my lack of Patriotism to have dropped it.

Now, in the same way I do support that anyone can protest in anyway they see fit, by way of the First Amendment. Foreign Countries. Go ahead and disgrace your own pride by burning mine.

If you happen to be anywhere in MY Country, in MY presence, and you decide to burn MY Flag in protest. You better fight for your life. Because I will. That is my First Amendment Right.

[sir_scutter]

It would still piss 'em off. It's the symbolism that so enrages people, not the semantics of how many stars or stripes

Actually, some are just pissed because they treat US flags just like living things. It gets crazy in some circles. But I would probably agree, while they wouldn't take it as personally (act like you're burning a human) if it was a fake flag, I believe they'd still give a big WTF.

[sir_scutter]

If you happen to be anywhere in MY Country, in MY presence, and you decide to burn MY Flag in protest. You better fight for your life. Because I will. That is my First Amendment Right.

As long as it's not actual violence. Initiating violence or force is never right and only self defense is justified.

In most religious circles or heavy nationalistic, flag-worshipping groups you will see people become angry and even violent over things that haven't physically harmed them, but completely offends their beliefs and affect them in a similar way as physical violence (burn/disgrace a bible/flag/god). They might literally go nuts.

I would not know what to do to this besides recommend that any good protester/human carry a gun for their life.

[frankiethewaffle]

As long as it's not actual violence. Initiating violence or force is never right and only self defense is justified.

In most religious circles or heavy nationalistic, flag-worshipping groups you will see people become angry and even violent over things that haven't physically harmed them, but completely offends their beliefs and affect them in a similar way as physical violence (burn/disgrace a bible/flag/god). They might literally go nuts.

I would not know what to do to this besides recommend that any good protester/human carry a gun for their life.

No, no, no. If I were in the presence of any person being victimized, I would defend them as well. I don't have to be the victim to defend one. In fact, I am more likely to defend someone else before myself.

There are people, at my age, I consider them kids, defending me and dying for it. Whether or not they believe in the order, they do it so I don't have to.

Any Country's Flag represents that loyalty, honor and respect for their own people. If someone in my presence burns the American Flag, that does offend me. It demeans those that defend me with their lives. It is my emotional responsibility as an American, not serving my Country, to defend those that do.

I was in NYC at the time that Israel had a tank outside of Arafat's office window. There were actually Palestinians protesting in NY. Are you shitting me? Israel had two soldiers captured for no reason. They defended themselves. I was in NYC to go to a Yankee game. I couldn't help but confront the protesters.

How can they protest defending victims of the situation? Also, this is when I started to doubt Bush. He made a speech asserting that Israel should show restraint. Are you shitting me? We were attacked, we responded with fierce humor. Sand and heat make glass. We tried to turn Afghanistan into Superman's Dads apartment on Krypton. (Dennis Miller joke)

You do have to defend your Country with all of your might, with all of your means. You don't give that up to be the guy that steps over a fellow countrymen, lying in their own piss, to throw paint on someone wearing fur. (another Dennis Miller joke, but has a base in reality.)

You defend your FELLOW man.

I am not in religious circles or heavy nationalistic or flag-worshiping. I defend what gives me the opportunity to let me do what ever I choose to dream to do.

[sir_scutter]

No, no, no. If I were in the presence of any person being victimized, I would defend them as well. I don't have to be the victim to defend one. In fact, I am more likel....

I am not in religious circles or heavy nationalistic or flag-worshiping. I defend what gives me the opportunity to let me do what ever I choose to dream to do.

That made complete sense. I can't disagree. And I wasn't necessarily claiming you were the crazy wanting violence, but was just making sure...


It's completely human to defend the ideas of the country and in essence I get carried away in my iconoclasm. I don't hate the country, I want it improved.

(And defending my FELLOW man is precisely what I believe in, but it's the ways currently used by gov'ts which bother me, another post, another day)