The Pledge

[sir_scutter]

"Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist."
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

Francis Bellamy also happened to be a flag salesman. He wrote the pledge to get Americans to show obedience to the state.

http://wiki.freetalklive.com/images/2/28/1892_Pledge_of_Allegiance2.jpg
Link: Bellamy Salute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute)

The pledge originally had schoolkids making a nazi-like solute and still has people worshiping a piece of cloth and pledging allegiance to the state.

Makes me want to go back and yell at the teachers who forced me to stand for this crap.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/18800444.html this article is crazy.


Note to self, use this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance_criticism#Other_objections) as fodder for arguments.

[xibalba]

I wouldn't stand for it/or recite it in school and if the teacher made me stand I still wouldn't say it or hold my hand on my chest.

[phatlip12]

Thats one of the reasons I hated high school. Not because I had a problem standing for the pledge (I didn't). But because the teachers and administration acted as though they were dictators.

[ariastar]

We got detention at my schools for refusing to take part. That made me mad.

[sir_scutter]

Exactly. It wasn't that the pledge even meant anything to me, it was just the pure drill-sergeant attitude with the teachers.

[bigshotprof]

It also bears mentioning that the phrase "under God" was added later.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

We got detention at my schools for refusing to take part. That made me mad.Is there a communism pledge?

[sir_scutter]

Not sure, but let it be known, that there isn't (as far as I know) any other country that has a pledge worshipping a flag to show obedience to the state.

[phatlip12]

Not sure, but let it be known, that there isn't (as far as I know) any other country that has a pledge worshipping a flag to show obedience to the state.

Thats cool.

[tokenuser]

Not sure, but let it be known, that there isn't (as far as I know) any other country that has a pledge worshipping a flag to show obedience to the state.The flag is just used as a symbol that represents the USA. Pledging allegiance to the flag, is giving students a tangible item to focus on.

Take the flag out of the equation and you do get other countries singing national anthems at the beginning of the day.

You can bet that it hapens in Korea, China, Japan, and several other asian countries of varying political structures. Same thing in Africa.

Personal experience? Not before every school day, but the Australian national anthem was sung before school assemblies (in "grade" school).

Scutter - no offense, but I am curious if you own a passport or have travelled overseas (beyond Canada and Mexico).

[bigshotprof]

Is there a communism pledge?

Why yes, there is:

When I lay down to sleep tonight
I'll be a loyal Muscovite.
Like each young Russian girl and man
I'll work within the five year plan.
But should the chance arise some day
to go to the U.S. of A.
I'll jump at it and not look back.
I'll settle down in Hackensack.
I'll take some drugs and go on dates.
I'll sample other opiates.
And most of all I'll eat their snacks--
Whoppers, Dots and Chili-Macs.
Despite what Father Stalin said
I think I'm better fed than Red.

[sir_scutter]

Scutter - no offense, but I am curious if you own a passport or have travelled overseas (beyond Canada and Mexico).

No, I haven't travelled much. Not offensive at all. But I would like to travel a lot more. Maybe if the opportunity comes up?

I don't see the use of comparing the USA to other countries since America was supposed to be a big change from those ways of running countries. You mentioned that other countries have lesser versions of a socialistic call of allegiance in public gatherings... but what's that tell you? America was supposed to be an open and pro-liberty society. On top of all that, it's demanded to young children to repeat over and over when they don't even understand it (indoctrination).

And isn't a pledge only needed once? Once you pledge, that's it. Why are people saying it over and over and over again? Just gotta make sure everyone bows to the state?

I'm not arguing over other counties anymore, I'm talking about this one.

[phatlip12]

I still don't see the harm in saying the pledge. People certainly shouldn't be forced to but whats the issue with people saying it if they want to? The only reason I ask is because I get the impression that scutter is against any form of the pledge. I could be wrong though.

[rabidbadger]

...You mentioned that other countries have lesser versions of a socialistic call of allegiance in public gatherings... but what's that tell you? America was supposed to be an open and pro-liberty society. On top of all that, it's demanded to young children to repeat over and over when they don't even understand it (indoctrination).

And isn't a pledge only needed once? Once you pledge, that's it. Why are people saying it over and over and over again? Just gotta make sure everyone bows to the state?

I'm not arguing over other counties anymore, I'm talking about this one.

When I mentioned a thread like this in the other thread, This is why. You said most everything I wanted to say.

But I wanted it international because I am curious if other countries, have something like this. I was raised in Australia as a kid, then back in the USA at age ten. And also was Jehovahs witness. I wasn't allowed to be a part of singing God Save The Queen or The Pledge, because only God was to be exhaulted. I changed schools a LOT, and everytime my folks had to talk to the principal and the school had to change for me. They had to say, please stand for The national anthem/pledge and those of you who cannot, please leave the room until we are done.

So as a impressionalble kid, I was the one who had to get up and leave...everyday in the US. It was weird, embarrasing, but also made me an independent thinker once I grew up, and also left the JWs.

[tokenuser]

So as a impressionalble kid, I was the one who had to get up and leave...everyday in the US. It was weird, embarrasing, but also made me an independent thinker once I grew up, and also left the JWs.When I was in primary school, one of the girls (I wont call her a friend - because he super strict JW parents would not let her have friends) was not allowed to participate in the school graduation because of some religious belief about receiving gifts (FFS - we were 12, and it was a school keyring).

At least the Australian anthem is non-secular. As far as anthems go, it was a relative late comer, only being recognised in 1984 as the anthemespite being written 100 years earlier). It replaced "God Save the King/Queen" - which was the double whammy of pledging allegience to a monarchy and it had religious overtones.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Why yes, there is:

When I lay down to sleep tonight
I'll be a loyal Muscovite.
Like each young Russian girl and man
I'll work within the five year plan.
But should the chance arise some day
to go to the U.S. of A.
I'll jump at it and not look back.
I'll settle down in Hackensack.
I'll take some drugs and go on dates.
I'll sample other opiates.
And most of all I'll eat their snacks--
Whoppers, Dots and Chili-Macs.
Despite what Father Stalin said
I think I'm better fed than Red.Sweet.

/forward to ariastar.

[sir_scutter]

I still don't see the harm in saying the pledge. People certainly shouldn't be forced to but whats the issue with people saying it if they want to? The only reason I ask is because I get the impression that scutter is against any form of the pledge. I could be wrong though.

I guess I have nothing against others saying what they want. Not that I'd force others to stop it. I'm just raising discussion. Mainly bringing up the teachers demanding others participate and shouting lies about those who don't stand. Especially on public property, when the parents HAVE to pay for this stuff, I wouldn't want this going on.

[esophagus]

At my elementary and middle schools we sang the Canadian national anthem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Canada#Performances) first thing in the morning once a week. I am under the impression it is commonplace in high schools too, but mine didn't since we were too busy praying.

[xibalba]

In 8th grade one day we had a Sub Teacher, he tall skinny hair red as fire, he could easily play the devil in a movie and in fact the students called him Satan. During the Pledge some kid was making fun of it saying the wrong words and stuff.

Once the Pledge was over with he ballistic on the kid screaming about him how he and some many served to protect his freedom and he had no right to disrespect the flag in that way. Everyone thought he was going to kill him. This guy put fear into the students.

[guytheninja]

When I mentioned a thread like this in the other thread, This is why. You said most everything I wanted to say.

But I wanted it international because I am curious if other countries, have something like this. I was raised in Australia as a kid, then back in the USA at age ten. And also was Jehovahs witness. I wasn't allowed to be a part of singing God Save The Queen or The Pledge, because only God was to be exhaulted. I changed schools a LOT, and everytime my folks had to talk to the principal and the school had to change for me. They had to say, please stand for The national anthem/pledge and those of you who cannot, please leave the room until we are done.

So as a impressionalble kid, I was the one who had to get up and leave...everyday in the US. It was weird, embarrasing, but also made me an independent thinker once I grew up, and also left the JWs.

I'm not that familiar with the JW's. I've seen a Jehovah Witness temple/church on a side of a hill. But that's about it.

Actually, I don't know what all this hubbub is about. I had to say/sing (everyday):

1. Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag
2. Pledge of Allegiance to the Bible

3. Sing "My Country Tis of Thee" (first stanza)
4. Sing "Onward Christian Soldiers" (first stanza)

They changed it up over the years, but it was similar to what is stated above. And I don't remember any of that being optional. You either did it or you visited Mr. Principal-Pants. And yes, the principal was interested in causing you a house of pain.

We also had mandatory chapel on Thursdays (it wasn't too bad).

[rabidbadger]

I'm guessing that was a private school? That's different, if your parents chose you to go there.

[guytheninja]

I'm guessing that was a private school? That's different, if your parents chose you to go there.

Yes, it was private. I'm glad high school is over. I'm a fan of college myself.

[bigshotprof]

Yes, it was private. I'm glad high school is over. I'm a fan of college myself.

Me too! We only have to pledge allegiance to Bass Ale.

[tokenuser]

Me too! We only have to pledge allegiance to Bass Ale.Wow ... a pledge to false prophets.

I belong to a universalist order ... we are allowed free prayer to any beverage we choose, and can appreciate the complexities of the philosophies of all beers, regardless of colour, hops, or alcohol content.

[guytheninja]

Me too! We only have to pledge allegiance to Bass Ale.

I was also a "pledge" in a fraternity. It was a great experience.

[ryudo]

I never stood for it or ever did recite it.
Never saw the point and never had a teacher dictate to me but I bet a few questioned me or something.

It always did bug me about the under god part.

[enendar]

I went to a public school and in middle school we said the pledge but weren't forced to do so. And then in high school they changed it to members of our choir sang the national anthem. I never remember it being an issue and don't remember people ever protesting beyond just sitting there. What I don't like is the addition of "under God" after the original writing. There's no need for it, pray on your own time.

[kahunablair]

I guess I was lucky. We were never forced to recite it. I had a girl in my 6th grade class that never stood or recited it because of her religious beleifs. No biggie.

Although, now that I think about it a Substitute teacher once told her she was going to be given a detention for not standing up. Thankfully, the matter was resolved before anything actually happened.

The Sub was a bitch though. She was fired a few months later for telling a kid to "Sit down, Fat Boy!" Oddly enough, I was that boy.

[guytheninja]

I guess I was lucky. We were never forced to recite it. I had a girl in my 6th grade class that never stood or recited it because of her religious beleifs. No biggie.

Although, now that I think about it a Substitute teacher once told her she was going to be given a detention for not standing up. Thankfully, the matter was resolved before anything actually happened.

The Sub was a bitch though. She was fired a few months later for telling a kid to "Sit down, Fat Boy!" Oddly enough, I was that boy.

Was the girl a Jehovah's Witness as well?

[kahunablair]

I honestly can't remember. It was 20 years ago and I don't remember her being in any of my classes after that year.

[rabidbadger]

pray on your own time.

perfect. the end. case closed.

[rabidbadger]

The Sub was a bitch though. She was fired a few months later for telling a kid to "Sit down, Fat Boy!" Oddly enough, I was that boy.

you're not fat, your big intentioned. :D

[esophagus]

We were asked to stand. We did. If we didn't, I don't think anyone would have noticed or cared, but we did anyways. Because, who really cares?

[bigshotprof]

All rise, sit or slouch--whatever makes you feel least aggrieved . . . .

I passively admit with only slight ironic derision mild association with the flag
of the United States of America
and to the loose confederation of private interests, racial and ethnic enclaves and gated communities that it symbolically represents in all of its various cloth, painted lead and clothing enhanced forms, for which it stands sits or slouches,
one nation, somewhat ambiguously influenced by varying conceptions of an all-powerful deity that may or may not have direct interest in or act directly on the populace or might just be a narrative personification of quantum natural forces,
with the ability to travel and interact as long as doing so does not endanger national security and is not done with a Muslim-sounding name
and justice for all . . .
who can afford it.

Now, sit down and take out your "Values Education" Workbooks.

[kahunablair]

you're not fat, your big intentioned. :D

I'm making that into a t-shirt!

[rabidbadger]

All rise, sit or slouch--whatever makes you feel least aggrieved . . . .

I passively admit with only slight ironic derision mild association with the flag
of the United States of America
and to the loose confederation of private interests, racial and ethnic enclaves and gated communities that it symbolically represents in all of its various cloth, painted lead and clothing enhanced forms, for which it stands sits or slouches,
one nation, somewhat ambiguously influenced by varying conceptions of an all-powerful deity that may or may not have direct interest in or act directly on the populace or might just be a narrative personification of quantum natural forces,
with the ability to travel and interact as long as doing so does not endanger national security and is not done with a Muslim-sounding name
and justice for all . . .
who can afford it.

Now, sit down and take out your "Values Education" Workbooks.

I'm making THAT into a T-Shirt!

[guytheninja]

I'm making THAT into a T-Shirt!

And I will indeed make that saying into a T-Shirt also --- everyone wins.