Democrats New Stimulus Package

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I love this.

So, the Democrats are wanting to send a second one out to the people (http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/democrats-look-to-new-economic-stimulus-package-2008-09-15.html). Amazingly before the elections and while the democrats seem to be losing.

Here's what I don't get.

Democrats plan for a better economy: tax the fuck out of people. Their plan for when the economy is shit? Give money back to the people!

Hrm, what tax plan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax) does what they are trying to do that they claim won't stimulate the economy?

[tokenuser]

Do you ever read beyond the headline?

Democratic leaders are moving aggressively to put the finishing touches on a hard-to-resist package that could put Republicans facing tight reelection battles in a tough position. The package is expected to include billions of dollars for new infrastructure projects, provisions to help the auto industry and a package to renew expiring energy-tax incentives that the business community has lobbied for extensively.

This is not the Bush Buck's program.

This is economic stimulation through capital works projects ... the sort of things that creates jobs (you know that 6.1% unemployment rate?). The nation's infrastructure is getting old. Bridges and roads need rebuilding (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/01/bridge.collapse/index.html). This is not about sending everyone a certificate to go to the local Apple store for an iPod.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Do you ever read beyond the headline?Um, did you read what I said? I said just what they are doing. Giving more money back to help out.

This is economic stimulation through capital works projects ... the sort of things that creates jobs (you know that 6.1% unemployment rate?).Oh, right, let's talk about that unemployment rate. Fist of all the average unemployment rate is lower than 6.1%. It's more like 5.5% - 5.7% right now.

Media during Clinton years (http://www.businessandmedia.org/specialreports/2004/jobs_study/sr20041014b.asp):

“The government came out today with its latest report on unemployment. It says the unemployment rate rose slightly, 2/10ths of a point last month, up to 5.6 percent – still low overall. And the numbers, pure and simple, can be misleading. Economics correspondent Ray Brady tonight has the story behind them.”

Media during republican years (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/01/bush-unemployment-at-50-bad-clinton.html):

Hiring practically stalled in December, driving the nation's unemployment rate up to a two-year high of 5 percent and fanning fears of a recession.

Employers last month added the fewest new jobs to their payrolls in more than four years, according to the employment report released Friday by the Labor Department. The report showed that employment conditions are deteriorating, strained by a housing slump and credit crunch that are sapping economic strength.

"The economy is getting hit by some body blows. The big question is whether the economy can withstand it or will it take a fall," said Ken Mayland, president of ClearView Economics.

Also, from the Clinton News Network (http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/04/news/economy/jobs_december/):

"Jobs weak, unemployment soars"

Yea, 5.7% is unemployment soaring. Oh wait, there is no media bias. So it must be true. Clinton = unemployment = fine, Bush = same unemployment rate = OMG, RUN!

Please, spare your bullshit unemployment argument for someone else.

The nation's infrastructure is getting old. Bridges and roads need rebuilding (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/01/bridge.collapse/index.html). This is not about sending everyone a certificate to go to the local Apple store for an iPod.I'm sure the government could cut out a few thousand programs to get more money from their already insanely high gas tax. They get 15% of the tax and they do zero of the work, while the oil companies who survey, refine, etc only get 7%. Meanwhile, democrats scream at the oil companies. It's comical.

[masherscf]

I love this.


Democrats plan for a better economy: tax the fuck out of people.

I wasn't aware that the "tax the fuck out of people" plan was part of the official Democratic platform. Honestly, that's just Republican fear-mongering bullshit that you fall for.

[tokenuser]

Oh, right, let's talk about that unemployment rate. Fist of all the average unemployment rate is lower than 6.1%. It's more like 5.5% - 5.7% right now.You dont listen to the news much do you?

Heres a chart ...

http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

Unemployment rates on a month to month basis.

If you want to pick on Clinton ... look at how the job rate showed steady decline form the HIGH of 7.3 he inherited from Bush 1.0, through to the low of 3.9% he left for Bush 2.0. Look at the trend. Don't just randomly pick a number/month.

Look at the the numbers for Bush 2.0.

And throw in this part ...

Unemployment: 6.1 percent and rising

Unemployment jumped from 5.7 to 6.1 percent in August, matching its worst mark since 2003. According to the Department of Labor, the economy shed another 84,000 jobs in August. For those keeping count at home, that's 605,000 jobs lost in 2008. [Source (http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2008/09/05/jobs_and_wage_insurance/)]

5.7 to 6.1%.

[tokenuser]

I'm sure the government could cut out a few thousand programs to get more money from their already insanely high gas tax. They get 15% of the tax and they do zero of the work, while the oil companies who survey, refine, etc only get 7%. Meanwhile, democrats scream at the oil companies. It's comical.

I suspect what yo are quoting is price at the pump.

It does not account for the profit they already made on selling the oil to the refineries. THAT is where they make money, not at the pump.

[masherscf]

I suspect what yo are quoting is price at the pump.

It does not account for the profit they already made on selling the oil to the refineries. THAT is where they make money, not at the pump.

Nobody makes money at the pump. The guys here sell the gas practically at cost+tax. They make money selling donuts, coffee and soda. The oil companies like fucking their retailers most of all.

[bigshotprof]

Another nuance that bears mentioning regarding the unemployment rate is that it is only hovering around 6% because it only counts people who are looking for jobs and don't have one. The people who give up and stay home and the people who go off the grid and make their money under the table (Remember Cheney's advice? "A lot of people sell their belongings on Ebay.") aren't accounted for by that number. According to several folks in the "community organizer" game (you know, those people with no responsibilities) say the number of people who have gone "invisible" is at a scary all time high.

But whatever the case, why not try something else. Supply side has had almost thirty years and has failed.

[phatlip12]

Under Obamas tax plan, people making under $250,000 a year won't have an increase in their taxes.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Under Obamas tax plan, people making under $250,000 a year won't have an increase in their taxes.Wow, he really has everyone brainwashed.

First off, no, that's not true. Are you getting effected right now by higher gas prices? Oh, you are? OK, so what makes you think you won't be effected by companies having to pay a shitload more for taxes?

COMPANIES DO NOT PAY TAXES.

Do you really think Dell is just going to go: "Oh well, fuck it, looks like we're just going to take a lower bottom line this year." Nope, they will make up the difference by raising prices, and cutting jobs.

Second, there's not just "one" single tax he's raising. I know that's all Democrats thing about, but there are several that will effect you. Well, maybe not at 18, but when you start saving up for other things, such as retirement, let me know how Obama doesn't effect you at all.

[phatlip12]

Second, there's not just "one" single tax he's raising. I know that's all Democrats thing about, but there are several that will effect you. Well, maybe not at 18, but when you start saving up for other things, such as retirement, let me know how Obama doesn't effect you at all.

I was 18 over two years ago. I have a job and have ever since I was 16 years old and have a 401K at my current job. In all likely hood the job I have now will be full time within the next year so I can gain the benefit of going to school for free.

I'll let you know when he's elected. ;)

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I was 18 over two years ago. I have a job and have ever since I was 16 years old and have a 401K at my current job. In all likely hood the job I have now will be full time within the next year so I can gain the benefit of going to school for free.

I'll let you know when he's elected. ;)Wow, typical phatlip post. Ignore half of what was said, and say the least relevant thing.

Let me know when all those tax increases on the company you work for help you out, OK?

[phatlip12]

Wow, typical phatlip post. Ignore half of what was said, and say the least relevant thing.

Let me know when all those tax increases on the company you work for help you out, OK?

Like I said. I'll let you know how things are going when he's elected. I'm not a psychic. I can't look into the future and tell you that now.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Like I said. I'll let you know how things are going when he's elected. I'm not a psychic. I can't look into the future and tell you that now.You don't need to be a psychic. It's pretty obvious if you just think about it for two seconds. As it is for most companies as well (http://revision3.com/forum/showpost.php?p=426293&postcount=24). I mean, you can honestly say that you don't know what's going to happen when a companies bottom line is cut due to higher taxes? Are you serious? I really think the voting age needs to be raised. As does the presidents.

[phatlip12]

You don't need to be a psychic. It's pretty obvious if you just think about it for two seconds. As it is for most companies as well (http://revision3.com/forum/showpost.php?p=426293&postcount=24). I mean, you can honestly say that you don't know what's going to happen when a companies bottom line is cut due to higher taxes? Are you serious? I really think the voting age needs to be raised. As does the presidents.

You're obviously psychic. After all, you KNOW "companies bottom line will be cut due to higher taxes".

Raise the voting age? Does that apply to so called "18 year olds"? What if a person has no recollection of time? Should they be able to vote? :D

[secret-steve-crumbles]

After all, you KNOW "companies bottom line will be cut due to higher taxes". I honestly don't know if I should laugh or cry.

[phatlip12]

I honestly don't know if I should laugh or cry.

I often ask myself the same thing when I read your posts. It's usually laugh.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I often ask myself the same thing when I read your posts. It's usually laugh.When you say stuff like:

After all, you KNOW "companies bottom line will be cut due to higher taxes".

I can easily see how my posts would make you laugh.

[ariastar]

Um, did you read what I said? I said just what they are doing. Giving more money back to help out.

"Giving" money by using it to build new bridges and such that need to be built, hiring people to do these jobs, money for people to earn, rather than Bush's great plan of just tossing a few Bennies at most people saying, "Here, go shopping." nothing constructive was accomplished with Bush's plan. With the Dems' plan, infrastructure would be repaired and/or rebuilt.


Oh, right, let's talk about that unemployment rate. Fist of all the average unemployment rate is lower than 6.1%. It's more like 5.5% - 5.7% right now.

Average, meaning higher is some areas. That rate isn't really that low. That's the percentage of the population who needs work, families who aren't eating because jobs are going overseas and not coming back.

Here's what I don't get.

Democrats plan for a better economy: tax the fuck out of people. Their plan for when the economy is shit? Give money back to the people!

The Republicans' plan for a better economy: tax the fuck out of people for an oil war. Their plan for when the economy is shit? Tax the fuck out of the people some more and tell people working three or more jobs that their experience is "uniquely American."


COMPANIES DO NOT PAY TAXES.

Yes and no. On what is spent, no. On what is made, yes.


Wow, typical phatlip post. Ignore half of what was said, and say the least relevant thing.

Typical Crumbles post, all of this. Looking for some way to disagree with everybody.

I really think the voting age needs to be raised.

What about the age to enlist and go die in a war?

Oh, wait. You're more concerned about maybe a little more in taxes if Obama wins, but clearly care nothing that McCain/Palin want to march into two MORE wars. How will those wars be funded? TAX INCREASES!!

[bigshotprof]

COMPANIES DO NOT PAY TAXES.



. . . because they pass the cost on the consumer. By that logic, no one pays taxes, because in some way everyone else passes their cost on as well. The consumer goes to his store and raises prices, or goes to his work and demands a higher wage. The consumer buys a used car instead of a new car and passes the loss of income on to the dealer. The consumer buys regular instead of premium or Bud instead of Heineken. Money circulates. It is arbitrary to stop at one point n the flow and say it only goes down from here.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

[COLOR="Magenta"]Typical Crumbles post, all of this. Looking for some way to disagree with everybody.If only this world exceeded this forum. If only. Don't you have some people to go preach communism to? Or Scientology or something?

. . . because they pass the cost on the consumer. By that logic, no one pays taxes, because in some way everyone else passes their cost on as well. The consumer goes to his store and raises prices, or goes to his work and demands a higher wage. The consumer buys a used car instead of a new car and passes the loss of income on to the dealer. The consumer buys regular instead of premium or Bud instead of Heineken. Money circulates. It is arbitrary to stop at one point n the flow and say it only goes down from here.Um, sorry, the buck stops with Joe Worker. Your company can't afford a raise right now because their bottom line has been increased. It's amazing people think like this, no wonder so many of you guys vote Democrat. Do you even realize what you're saying? By that logic, it wouldn't matter if 90% of your pay went to your employer! You'd just ask him for a raise!

Good God, I had no idea how idiotic Dem's really were.

I can't wait to see who you guys blame next year when all hell breaks lose thanks to Obama. It would be impossible for him or any other Democrat to be at fault, so who will be left? I can't fucking wait to find out, it's going to be shocking I'm sure. In fact, I'm going to quote this post in a year from now to see who the Dem's are blaming for how shitty everything is. Despite the fact they will have a Democratic president, with the 9% approval rating Democratic house.

[ariastar]

If only this world exceeded this forum. If only. Don't you have some people to go preach communism to? Or Scientology or something?

Communism looks good on paper. Enforced on all on a wide-scale doesn't work. There are intentional communities out there where all funds everyone makes is put into a central pot and all take an equal share. That's because they want it, so all work for it. I like how communism works in theory. I also know that in practice it's a disaster, so am not for it. Scientology has some good ideas and beliefs I do believe are spot on, and so does Christianity. In the end there was more I began to find objectionable, just as I did with Christianity, so left it.


I can't wait to see who you guys blame next year when all hell breaks lose thanks to Obama. It would be impossible for him or any other Democrat to be at fault, so who will be left? I can't fucking wait to find out, it's going to be shocking I'm sure. In fact, I'm going to quote this post in a year from now to see who the Dem's are blaming for how shitty everything is. Despite the fact they will have a Democratic president, with the 9% approval rating Democratic house.

You think Obama's going to ruin the country. Looks like Republicans did a damned good job of that these last eight years. How do you explain away the way McPalin wants? How do you explain away the increase in taxes to keep funding that, the likely draft to get troops?

[yssman]

Democrats plan for a better economy: tax the fuck out of people.

ENOUGH.

What don't you people get about Obama's proposed tax plan? If you make less than $250,000 a year (which more than 90% of Americans do), then YOU WILL RECEIVE A TAX CUT. Sure, McCain will give me a "tax cut" as well, but when I'm looking at a difference between nearly 6% for my income bracket under Obama versus less than 1% for McCain... The answer is clear.

When top income earners have the ability to pay, and for that matter, have gotten out of paying consistently for eight years, its time that we have a change back to what is right. I do not make enough money to put myself through school, to keep a roof over my head, to pay for my car, food, gasoline, etc to be stupid enough to vote for someone who will ultimately raise my taxes.

Do you really think that both Republicans and Democrats are that stupid?

I completely understand your favoring of the "Fair Tax," and as a matter of fact, it is something that I have supported for a long time. As a matter of fact, we have a proposition on the ticket this fall here in November to get rid of the state income tax in favor of an increased consumption tax... I will be voting for it.

BUT!

You are neglecting the issues that middle-class families have to deal with everyday. The Republicans, who had once fought for us who worked hard for what little money we have ended up leaving us to essentially die... Corporate interests, high wage earners, and the priorities of religion far outweigh the wants and needs of normal people across the country.

As a Republican, someone who will always be a Republican, I am sick and tired of the smears against Obama and his tax plan that are not true. When independent tax organizations are out there fully supporting his plan as it gives relief to those who need it, and in the end, costs the government less money over time... I'll say the same thing:

ENOUGH.

[bigshotprof]

Good God, I had no idea how idiotic Dem's really were.



I am more than a little tired of being lectured about how stupid I am by someone who trots out his politics and economics one bumper sticker at a time. Joe Worker is going to get hosed whether Corporations pay no taxes or major taxes. The question isn't whether working stiffs will take the brunt; the question is whether corporations are able to pass on their tax burdens with impugnity by cutting workforce and raising prices. They are not. If they were then it wouldn't be cost effective to spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year that could go to share holders on lobbyists and accountants whose job it is to keep them from paying the taxes that won't cost them anything, because they will just pass it on. Let me know if that is too complicated for you. I will get some puppets.

[kilroyperrywinkle]

I love this. I really do. "Here's 700 bucks! Thats gas for a month!" -plan didn't work. Will never work. So what do we do? If only the nation had been in some kind of funk before... you know a real tough time... like... I dunno a DEPRESSION.

Then we'd know what to do!

Oh wait!

I should totally make WWFDRD bracelets. He didn't send out checks, he made you work for them!

You put the nation to WORK! Capitalism works people!

Jobs=Progress.

[yssman]

Are you, Bobwise and myself the only sane people left in West Michigan? Although, when the Obama signs are flying higher than McCain ones in conservative-friendly East Grand Rapids... Its the end of the world as we know it.

[ariastar]

ENOUGH.

What don't you people get about Obama's proposed tax plan? If you make less than $250,000 a year (which more than 90% of Americans do), then YOU WILL RECEIVE A TAX CUT. Sure, McCain will give me a "tax cut" as well, but when I'm looking at a difference between nearly 6% for my income bracket under Obama versus less than 1% for McCain... The answer is clear.

When top income earners have the ability to pay, and for that matter, have gotten out of paying consistently for eight years, its time that we have a change back to what is right. I do not make enough money to put myself through school, to keep a roof over my head, to pay for my car, food, gasoline, etc to be stupid enough to vote for someone who will ultimately raise my taxes.

Do you really think that both Republicans and Democrats are that stupid?

I completely understand your favoring of the "Fair Tax," and as a matter of fact, it is something that I have supported for a long time. As a matter of fact, we have a proposition on the ticket this fall here in November to get rid of the state income tax in favor of an increased consumption tax... I will be voting for it.

BUT!

You are neglecting the issues that middle-class families have to deal with everyday. The Republicans, who had once fought for us who worked hard for what little money we have ended up leaving us to essentially die... Corporate interests, high wage earners, and the priorities of religion far outweigh the wants and needs of normal people across the country.

As a Republican, someone who will always be a Republican, I am sick and tired of the smears against Obama and his tax plan that are not true. When independent tax organizations are out there fully supporting his plan as it gives relief to those who need it, and in the end, costs the government less money over time... I'll say the same thing:

ENOUGH.

Excellent post.

Those tax-write-offs the rich have been able to claim, like writing off the cost of yachts and such (an ex's grandfather wrote off his million-dollar yacht, so I know it happens), is just disgusting. The working-class works so hard and can't afford those luxuries that are deductibles, or write-offs, and have to pay for bail-outs for CEOs and whatever the non-workers get. The middle-class takes the fucking.

The Republicans seem to fight more for the rich, and the Dems for the poor. Today's working class is edging closer to being outright poor. We can't afford more tax-breaks for the rich. The middle-class pays for it.

[ariastar]

I love this. I really do. "Here's 700 bucks! Thats gas for a month!" -plan didn't work. Will never work. So what do we do? If only the nation had been in some kind of funk before... you know a real tough time... like... I dunno a DEPRESSION.

Then we'd know what to do!

Oh wait!

I should totally make WWFDRD bracelets. He didn't send out checks, he made you work for them!

You put the nation to WORK! Capitalism works people!

Jobs=Progress.

Which is why I like this stimulus idea. Get money into the economy by creating jobs rather than giving hand-outs (money, cell phones...).

[quix]

Good God, I had no idea how idiotic Dem's really were.

Says the guy who still doesn't understand that Obama won't raise taxes for 95% of Americans even though it's been explained to him over and over again.

I can't wait to see who you guys blame next year when all hell breaks lose thanks to Obama. It would be impossible for him or any other Democrat to be at fault, so who will be left? I can't fucking wait to find out, it's going to be shocking I'm sure. In fact, I'm going to quote this post in a year from now to see who the Dem's are blaming for how shitty everything is. Despite the fact they will have a Democratic president, with the 9% approval rating Democratic house.

If the facts say Obama, Obama. If the facts say a problem is rooted back to Bush, Bush. If the facts say a problem goes back farther to Clinton, Clinton. Being part of the reality based community means that we have no real choice on the matter.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Says the guy who still doesn't understand that Obama won't raise taxes for 95% of Americans even though it's been explained to him over and over again.Ah, a Californian. Gotcha. Go Obama!

[tokenuser]

Ah, a Californian. Gotcha. Go Obama!Isn't Californaia a Republican state?

What?? Arnie is the wrong sort of Republican? ... is that another excuse like George is the wrong sort of Republican?

Thats the difference between the GOP and the Dems ... the GOP will tell you there is a problem, the Dems will try to do something to fix it.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

the GOP will tell you there is a problem, the Dems will try to do something to fix it.
...as long as they can force the money out of someone else's pockets.

[tokenuser]

...as long as they can force the money out of someone else's pockets.Umm yeah ...

$700BILLION to bail out companies that were too fucking greedy in a government were there was no regulatory oversight on lending principles.

That money is coming out of someones pockets ... and you can be that Main Street USA will see no benefits from it (just the cost), while Wall Street USA will just line their golden handshakes with the spoils.

It makes me wonder if, instead of giving money to companies to bail them out, what would happen if the government paid off the loans of people who had borrowed the money.

Now, the money is repayed, so the companies would be happy and have increased liquidity. The people would be happy, because they got their shiny subprime mortgaged houses for free.

The only people not happy would be middle class America - who would be footing the bill, while getting no personal benefits, but we are already footing the bill and will be unhappy ...so why not pay off the loans? Ahhhhh ... thats right, that would be fucking charity, and we can't have that can we.

[phatlip12]

That money is coming out of someones pockets ... and you can be that Main Street USA will see no benefits from it (just the cost), while Wall Street USA will just line their golden handshakes with the spoils.

It makes me wonder if, instead of giving money to companies to bail them out, what would happen if the government paid off the loans of people who had borrowed the money.

Now, the money is repayed, so the companies would be happy and have increased liquidity. The people would be happy, because they got their shiny subprime mortgaged houses for free.

The only people not happy would be middle class America - who would be footing the bill, while getting no personal benefits, but we are already footing the bill and will be unhappy ...so why not pay off the loans? Ahhhhh ... thats right, that would be fucking charity, and we can't have that can we.

I guess it's okay to give money to rich, old, white men but screw the poor!

[quix]

Ah, a Californian. Gotcha. Go
Obama!

Yep, California. The state which gave you your god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan).

...as long as they can force the money out of someone else's pockets.

Bush is a Democrat?

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Umm yeah ...So, you think I agree with this decision and think that Bush is acting like a Republican still? Maybe eventually someone will read what I post.

Bush is a Democrat?Pretty much (http://revision3.com/forum/showpost.php?p=241228&postcount=45).

[secret-steve-crumbles]

I guess it's okay to give money to rich, old, white men but screw the poor!
I love how Democrats always say shit like that. "Give." Yea, "rich white men" as you say, definitely didn't earn anything they did. I guess that makes it easier for Democrats to steal it from them.

[tokenuser]

I love how Democrats always say shit like that. "Give." Yea, "rich white men" as you say, definitely didn't earn anything they did. I guess that makes it easier for Democrats to steal it from them.It doesn't sound like the $700,000,000,000 is being stolen from the "rich white men" ... it sounds like it is being used to bail them out, while they still screw with the people (those "poor white men" I guess) that borrowed money from them.

[masherscf]

I love how Democrats always say shit like that. "Give." Yea, "rich white men" as you say, definitely didn't earn anything they did. I guess that makes it easier for Democrats to steal it from them.

I think the lead executives to every company that's about to be bailed out by the federal government should surrender their paychecks, cars and all but one of their houses. Because, frankly, they didn't earn a nickel of it. Gaming a system to the point of needing a bail-out isn't hard work. Pushing your company to point of bankruptcy and corporate welfare doesn't deserve a paycheck. Having well placed friends and former bosses in the federal reserve and treasury department shouldn't exempt someone for taking personal responsibility for bad decisions.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

It doesn't sound like the $700,000,000,000 is being stolen from the "rich white men" ... it sounds like it is being used to bail them out, while they still screw with the people (those "poor white men" I guess) that borrowed money from them.I think the lead executives to every company that's about to be bailed out by the federal government should surrender their paychecks, cars and all but one of their houses. Because, frankly, they didn't earn a nickel of it. Gaming a system to the point of needing a bail-out isn't hard work. Pushing your company to point of bankruptcy and corporate welfare doesn't deserve a paycheck. Having well placed friends and former bosses in the federal reserve and treasury department shouldn't exempt someone for taking personal responsibility for bad decisions.I wasn't specifically talking about this exact situation. Just how democrats see people with money in general.

[phatlip12]

I love how Democrats always say shit like that. "Give." Yea, "rich white men" as you say, definitely didn't earn anything they did. I guess that makes it easier for Democrats to steal it from them.

So they earned the government bail out?

[quix]

So, you think I agree with this decision and think that Bush is acting like a Republican still? Maybe eventually someone will read what I post.

Judging by the RNC, he's acting like a Republican. He supports torture, corporate interest, and stubbornly ignores the facts. There are the few sane Republicans who oppose Bush, but they're far from the norm.

Pretty much (http://revision3.com/forum/showpost.php?p=241228&postcount=45).

Neo-Conservative =/= Democrat.

[masherscf]

I wasn't specifically talking about this exact situation. Just how democrats see people with money in general.

Are you a democrat? I think you'll find that the Democratic Party resists any generalizations. Really, that characterization is nothing more than Republican fear mongering to keep people in line. Bush has squandered every ounce of appeal that Republicans might have had sans the image of the democrat as a rapid tax and spender.

Other than empty calls for America pride and claims for a leadership to nowhere. The best they can muster are the tired old generalizations of the monster democrats who want to steal your hard earned cash and give it to drug dealers, minorities, immigrants and criminals.

McCain is a great man. He should sack Palin and send these Rovites packing. He needs to return the Republicans to the Peaceful, Honest, fiscally conservative, quitly moral, and socially conscience ideals that made the Repubicans great in the time of Reagan and Bush I.

Most of all, can the scary bullshit.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

So they earned the government bail out?I wasn't specifically talking about this exact situation. Just how democrats see people with money in general.Do you go out of your way and try extra hard to not read posts before you open your mouth? It's really amazing how much you talk before you read.

[ariastar]

Isn't Californaia a Republican state?

No, this is a very liberal state. Arnie's wife is a Kennedy, and he's more moderate, so he's not written off as a right-wing nut job. Don't forget in that election we also have Gary Coleman and a stripper running for publicity.

[ariastar]

The only people not happy would be middle class America - who would be footing the bill, while getting no personal benefits, but we are already footing the bill and will be unhappy ...so why not pay off the loans? Ahhhhh ... thats right, that would be fucking charity, and we can't have that can we.

Ah, the middle class. Too rich for government benefits, too poor to get bail-outs. So what shall we get? The bills for both.

[ariastar]

I guess it's okay to give money to rich, old, white men but screw the poor!

Well, the poor get section 8 and welfare and food stamps. More like screw the middle class who aren't rich enough to write off almost all their taxes and who aren't rich enough for bail outs, but too rich to get food stamps when they can't put food on their own tables, but who have to pay for both sides.

[ariastar]

I think the lead executives to every company that's about to be bailed out by the federal government should surrender their paychecks, cars and all but one of their houses. Because, frankly, they didn't earn a nickel of it. Gaming a system to the point of needing a bail-out isn't hard work. Pushing your company to point of bankruptcy and corporate welfare doesn't deserve a paycheck. Having well placed friends and former bosses in the federal reserve and treasury department shouldn't exempt someone for taking personal responsibility for bad decisions.

I'll drink to that!

[ariastar]

I wasn't specifically talking about this exact situation. Just how democrats see people with money in general.

And how do Republicans see money in general? Take from the poor to feed the rich and to fund their wars.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

And how do Republicans see money in general? Take from the poor to feed the rich and to fund their wars.Yes, that's exactly what they are thinking. The poor is a great source of funds.

[ariastar]

Yes, that's exactly what they are thinking. The poor is a great source of funds.

The poor, in my scenario, being the middle class, the ones who have to pay for the rich and for the "poor."

[quix]

And how do Republicans see money in general? Take from the poor to feed the rich and to fund their wars.

I don't think they see it quite like that. That's one the end results of their policies, but they probably view it as freeing those with the will to power from the constraints applied on them by the unjust and evil government.

Of course, they abandon those 'principles' really quickly when the government has to swoop in and save them via a at the least semi-socialist bail out.