View Full Version : Canadian Elections
esophagus
09-23-2008, 06:18 AM
Any other Canadians here? Who do you plan on voting for and why? Any non-Canadians here have any opinions on the election?
I doubt it. I must say, this has been an incredibly poorly organized/advertised election. It was announced fairly late and none of the candidates are really getting their cases out there. I mean, even Wikipedia doesn't have enough information to form "Political Positions" sections for the candidates. They seem to be relying even more heavily than usual on just tearing each other down.
Personally, I'm voting NDP. That means Patti Gieni in my riding, but who ever cares about their local candidates? Bigger picture it means I'm trying to get Jack Layton elected. I don't like that aspect of our system.
bigshotprof
09-24-2008, 01:25 AM
I thought you all just rotated, like volleyball.
rabidbadger
09-24-2008, 03:31 AM
I thought you all just rotated, like volleyball.
Oh god you crack me up!
But kinda serious, the only thing I heard about Canadian elections is that one guy put a video/add up of his opponent getting pooped on by a puffin, then after a hubbub, apolgized and removed it...
In the U.S. The dude wouldn't apologize or remove it, but instead hire flocks of puffins in all campaign cities to poop on him at every event. You Canadians rock. And where is my second fave Canadian when we need him? Eric? You there?
(sorry canucks, my first fave Canadian is my sister in law. Family first!)
tokenuser
09-24-2008, 03:48 AM
Canadian elections are cool.
The candidates stand in a circle, and draw straws. The person with the shortest straw has to go live in Ottawa.
rabidbadger
09-24-2008, 03:52 AM
so short straw wins? Ottawa is gorgeous!
rabidbadger
09-24-2008, 03:53 AM
Any other Canadians here? Who do you plan on voting for and why? Any non-Canadians here have any opinions on the election?
I doubt it. I must say, this has been an incredibly poorly organized/advertised election. It was announced fairly late and none of the candidates are really getting their cases out there. I mean, even Wikipedia doesn't have enough information to form "Political Positions" sections for the candidates. They seem to be relying even more heavily than usual on just tearing each other down.
Personally, I'm voting NDP. That means Patti Gieni in my riding, but who ever cares about their local candidates? Bigger picture it means I'm trying to get Jack Layton elected. I don't like that aspect of our system.
but seriously, esop, fill us in or give us links. Genuinly interested...
esophagus
09-24-2008, 06:00 AM
The big thing that I hate about Canadian politics is its heavy reliance on parties. I understand that party affiliations help to get votes and give a basic idea to tie a candidate to, but Canada takes it to a whole new level.
ie: When there is an election for a new Premier (essentially the leader of a province) we don't actually vote for a Premier. Instead you are supposed to look at the candidates in your local riding for MLA (Member of the Legislative Assembly) and vote for them. Whichever party gets the most seats in the assembly gets the Premier. The problem is that I am always going to look at the bigger fish. Until Hitler tries to become my MLA I am more concerned with who is going to be the Premier. Because everyone knows that, local candidates do little to know campaigning and get votes entirely based off of who their party has chosen to run for Premier. But what if the NDP party has a good candidate for MLA and Liberals for Premier? Well then, I'm fucked. And will ultimately vote Liberal.
Same goes for federal elections. I'll be voting out of four candidates in my riding for who I want to become a Member of Parliament, but I know nothing about these candidates because I'm voting based entirely off of who I would like to be the country's Prime Minister.
One of the other flaws of the system is that we still use the plurality voting system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plurality_voting_system). Essentially what this means is there can only be one winner. A totally fictional example off the top of my head:
42% of voters vote Conservative
40% of voters vote Liberal
15% of voters vote New Democratic Party
3% of voters make another choice
Lets say there are 100 seats. Again, these numbers are fictional, but the seat breakdown would probably end up something like:
70 seats Conservative
20 seats Liberal
10 seats NDP
To me that is entirely unfair. A majority of the voters end up with less than the majority of representation, and a near tie gets incredibly different numbers of seats. I'm not even sure how grounded in fact this is.
Another fault of ours, and one of the BIGGEST faults of ours in my opinion, is that our senators are still appointed. The Governor General gets to appoint them. Since the Governor General is a representative of the Queen, and the Queen is little more than a figurehead, the GG appoints whoever the Prime Minister advises him too. Then, once a senator is appointed, they hold the seat until they are 75. It used to be until the died, but people complained, and somehow 75 is a compromise.
I could go on about the silly failings of the Canadian system, but I won't. I'll just leave you with some links.
NDP Website (http://www.ndp.ca/) - Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_democratic_party) (Jack Layton Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Layton))
Liberal Website (http://www.liberal.ca) - Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_of_Canada) (Stephane Dion Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stéphane_Dion))
Conservative Website (http://www.conservative.ca/) - Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_of_Canada) (Stephen Harper Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_harper))
Elections Canada Website (http://www.elections.ca/home.asp?textonly=false)
Elections in Canada Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_canada)
Politics of Canada Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Canada)
If you want more information about the election at hand as opposed to the system in general, just ask.
yssman
09-24-2008, 06:40 AM
Actually, I have to admit that even here in America, I prefer the porportional representation that you guys have to the north, and across the pond. At least on those terms, independent and other third-party candidates would stand a far better chance of gaining a voice in congress, and for that matter, we would often have a Presidential candidate who better reflects the people.
All this being said, I was completely unaware that Canada is having their big election this year as well. Even more odd, I'm only a short drive from the border (three hours due east = Windsor). Nevertheless, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't your "conservatives" more like our Democrats anyway?
esophagus
09-24-2008, 06:59 AM
All this being said, I was completely unaware that Canada is having their big election this year as well. Even more odd, I'm only a short drive from the border (three hours due east = Windsor). Nevertheless, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't your "conservatives" more like our Democrats anyway?The election was called fairly out of the blue. We'd been half expecteing it. I don't know when it was formally announced. Harper started airing campaign ads about a month before he announced the election, but that kind of gave it away.
Our Conservatives might be a bit more left-leaning than your right-leaning parties, but I think the New Democratic Party is the closest to the American Democrats.
The Conservatives are socially left and economically right. The Liberals are a centrist party (although they tend to lean a little to the left, especially during campaign season). Those are the big two parties. The smaller two are NDP, who are a totally left leaning party, and Bloc Quebecois, a group looking to get Quebec to separate from Canada. They have huge support in Quebec, but no appearance outside of the province. As far as political positions go, they're also fairly left.
speed
09-24-2008, 08:46 AM
Actually, I have to admit that even here in America, I prefer the porportional representation that you guys have to the north, and across the pond.
We don't have proportional representation, we have the same first past the post system as the States.
All this being said, I was completely unaware that Canada is having their big election this year as well. Even more odd, I'm only a short drive from the border (three hours due east = Windsor). Nevertheless, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't your "conservatives" more like our Democrats anyway?
Our election was called last month.
Also, the Conservatives are more left leaning but still right of centre. I kind of think the Liberals are probably closer to the Democrats, more than anything. Theoretically, the NDP would be the closest thing to the US democrats, but that's assuming people like Dennis Kucinich actually won the primaries. If we take people like Obama, Hillary, Kerry, Biden, etc. to be Democrats, then they're closer to the Liberals. Put simple, one of the attack ads on Harper last election (by the Liberals) was "A Harper government will put a smile on George Bush's face"
Personally, I'll be voting NDP next election. It's a shame, since I live in Alberta so they'll never win, but I completely disagree with the Conservatives and, as far as I'm concerned, the Liberals are supporting the Conservatives too much.
I agree though, that our system needs a major overhaul, and it's retarded that we can't pick our PM separate from our MP.
bigshotprof
09-24-2008, 03:54 PM
I think proportional representation would be great in the US, but the transition would be murderous.
tokenuser
09-24-2008, 04:00 PM
I agree though, that our system needs a major overhaul, and it's retarded that we can't pick our PM separate from our MP.Sorry - I have to disagree with you on this. The Westminster system of government has a lot of advantages.
By having the head of the political party becoming the prime minister, it means that you are voting for the policies of the entire party. It stops situations like have occured in th eUS whereby the house and senate majority are democrats, while the president is a republican ... who blocks every piece of legislature the comes out of capitol hill. It means that no matter who represents you, its worth nothing, because it can't be enacted upon.
masherscf
09-24-2008, 04:13 PM
I think if anyone equates the president of the United States as a Prime Minister. They've misunderstood the role of the President. The President of the United States is a replacement for the King. While the King of England's role in government policies has waned, the role of the President has strengthened. In England the leader of the majority caucus in the legislature becomes the functioning head of state. In this country, the speaker of the house is third is merely third in line to the presidency.
The historic roles of a King of England, that is law enforcement, war, defense and adjudication are separated between the President and the Supreme Court. The president was never seen as the chief of the legislature.
tokenuser
09-24-2008, 04:53 PM
The historic roles of a King of England, that is law enforcement, war, defense and adjudication are separated between the President and the Supreme Court. The president was never seen as the chief of the legislature.Sorry - mismatched cultural context. Everything coming out of the westminster parliamentary system is considered legislature. I should have been clearer and referred to bills.
esophagus
09-24-2008, 05:37 PM
Personally, I'll be voting NDP next election. It's a shame, since I live in Alberta so they'll never win, but I completely disagree with the Conservatives and, as far as I'm concerned, the Liberals are supporting the Conservatives too much.Is there anywhere the NDP will win? Ha. I'll have to remember to move there. Sad.
speed
09-25-2008, 08:17 AM
tokenuser, the problem though, is my vote will become useless. Voting NDP in Alberta does nothing but split the vote, but I feel Jack Layton would be the best man to lead Canada. If I could, I'd vote Layton for PM and Liberal for MP, so I wouldn't be splitting the left-wing vote in Alberta, but would still be supporting Layton.
esophagus
10-01-2008, 10:57 PM
It was just discovered that Prime Minister Stephen Harper plagiarized a speech in 2003 about what should be done in Iraq. Most of his speech was lifted directly from a speech that then Prime Minister of Australia John Howard had given two days prior. Lets hope this kills his chances a little.
L8YwJC_nBgw
rabidbadger
10-02-2008, 12:10 AM
I was just talking to eric about that on chat. I should direct him to this thread next time he's on.
speed
10-02-2008, 01:36 AM
And here I was accusing Harper of being a Bush clone....
tokenuser
10-02-2008, 03:48 AM
And here I was accusing Harper of being a Bush clone....If its any consolation John Howard was called Bonsai ... because he was a little Bush.
I think if anyone equates the president of the United States as a Prime Minister. They've misunderstood the role of the President. The President of the United States is a replacement for the King. While the King of England's role in government policies has waned, the role of the President has strengthened. In England the leader of the majority caucus in the legislature becomes the functioning head of state. In this country, the speaker of the house is third is merely third in line to the presidency.
The historic roles of a King of England, that is law enforcement, war, defense and adjudication are separated between the President and the Supreme Court. The president was never seen as the chief of the legislature.
kings rule by divine right
presidents rule by the will (vote) of the people
the good presidents know this
the bad ones don't
It would be a bad day for Canada if the NDP won. Their disgusting mutant form of socialism would bankrupt the treasury and put this country into a deep recession.
But hey, addicts would get their needles, and the poor would get their welfare checks.
esophagus
10-05-2008, 11:18 PM
It would be a bad day for Canada if the NDP won. Their disgusting mutant form of socialism would bankrupt the treasury and put this country into a deep recession.
But hey, addicts would get their needles, and the poor would get their welfare checks.
And who are you voting for? Harper?
(Serious question)
Yes, I'm voting conservative.
esophagus
10-06-2008, 12:31 AM
Fair enough. I do think that NDP is a bit too left leaning at times, but I prefer them to Liberals in a few key places.
smartso
10-16-2008, 05:12 PM
A Liberal / NDP coalition government would be my pick for how to rule the country for a few years.
esophagus
10-16-2008, 06:14 PM
A Liberal / NDP coalition government would be my pick for how to rule the country for a few years.Me too. I was hoping for number that would let that happen, but the Liberals did awful. Oh well. I don't think this minority will last very long.
speed
10-16-2008, 09:36 PM
As long as Dion is leader, the Liberals won't win. I would like the NDP to win, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
esophagus
10-16-2008, 10:16 PM
As long as Dion is leader, the Liberals won't win. I would like the NDP to win, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.Agreed. Thats why I thought a coalition would be nice.
smartso
10-18-2008, 12:16 AM
Dion is expected to step down on Monday:
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDA-shs8BuWnHS-6qv7zkWpL7k2A
"OTTAWA — Stephane Dion is set to announce Monday that he will step down as Liberal leader, ending a turbulent 22-month tenure at the helm of the party.
But it's unclear if he will resign immediately or agree to stay on until a successor is chosen.
Dion, who has been in seclusion since taking his party to its second-worst election defeat in history, has scheduled a news conference for 2 p.m. ET Monday.
Liberal insiders say he appears to have grudgingly accepted that he can't survive a mandatory party-wide vote of confidence in his leadership, scheduled for May.
Dion has neither the money nor a sufficiently large base of core supporters with which to launch a campaign to win the leadership review. He is still struggling to pay off about $200,000 from his 2006 leadership bid.
Insiders expect him to announce that he's stepping aside rather than subject himself to potential humiliation and the party to an ugly, fratricidal war."
esophagus
10-18-2008, 01:13 AM
Wow that is a humiliating article. Glad he is stepping down, though.
speed
10-18-2008, 11:39 PM
I wonder who will replace him? I doubt McKenna will run, Trudeau is still too young, Ignatieff may be problematic considering his views of things such as Iraq and torture. I'd actually like to see Layton cross the floor and run. Not likely to happen, but it would be great for the Liberals in my view. The NDP candidate in my riding (a Conservative stronghold) got 3rd (behind the Conservative and an independent conservative), and he never had a single sign up or anything, and the only non-Conservative seat in Alberta is NDP. To me, that just shows how popular Jack Layton is, since a lot of people didn't know anything about the local guy and were voting for Jack.
esophagus
10-18-2008, 11:42 PM
Yeah. I just moved to Saskatoon, so I don't know how popular NDP generally is in my riding but they got a lot of support this time around. Layton would be a good candidate. So will Trudeau, eventually. That kid is going to have to turn out to be a real dick to not do amazing on name alone.