Tell Me McCain Supporters Don't Agree With This

[samureye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vteNGQ0Z8FI

I like how Sean Hannity, the good guy will e-mail tshirts and bumper stickers. Is a prerequisite for supporting McCain a total misunderstanding of technology?

They said the wearing of the shirt was for showing patriotism. Let's look at what patriotism is defined as.


Patriotism denotes positive and supportive attitudes to a 'fatherland'

Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country; Concern for the common good of one's political community

devotion to a community as opposed to devotion to one's individual interests without considering what is good for the community

I am all for expressing yourself. If you think that about Obama, fine. I don't have to agree. But that was not the right place to have that shirt. This seems really typical of the McCain camp, taking things totally out of context, i.e the lipstick comment, and turning it into what they want it to be. Without looking for definitions that didn't equate to "patriotism." And the boy was given options, which he refused. Schools have rules, follow them or face the consequences. Would love to see how they lose this case.

A fair trial is something bad?

[bigshotprof]

What can you say? They did this deliberately to get the reaction they got. They wanted to cause trouble. They did cause trouble. They got on the news because they caused trouble. They used straw man arguments to justify it. There are people on the left who are just as bad. There are people you just aren't going to reach. It's shame a major news organization deems it responsible to publicize them, and it's a shame that news organization won't balance Hannity with someone other than that witless of Combs.

In answer to your question,McCain would say "uh . . . uh . . . of course, we decry any message that . . . is . . . divisive . . . but . . . uh, obviously the tenor of my opponent's campaign and . . . public statements . . . his sexist attacks on Governor Palin . . . his . . . uh . . . makes this sort of . . . uh . . . these people . . . inevitable.

[samureye]

What can you say? They did this deliberately to get the reaction they got. They wanted to cause trouble. They did cause trouble. They got on the news because they caused trouble. They used straw man arguments to justify it. There are people on the left who are just as bad. There are people you just aren't going to reach. It's shame a major news organization deems it responsible to publicize them, and it's a shame that news organization won't balance Hannity with someone other than that witless of Combs.

In answer to your question,McCain would say "uh . . . uh . . . of course, we decry any message that . . . is . . . divisive . . . but . . . uh, obviously the tenor of my opponent's campaign and . . . public statements . . . his sexist attacks on Governor Palin . . . his . . . uh . . . makes this sort of . . . uh . . . these people . . . inevitable.

Hahaha. Utterly ridiculous.

[quix]

I am all for expressing yourself. If you think that about Obama, fine. I don't have to agree. But that was not the right place to have that shirt. This seems really typical of the McCain camp, taking things totally out of context, i.e the lipstick comment, and turning it into what they want it to be. Without looking for definitions that didn't equate to "patriotism." And the boy was given options, which he refused. Schools have rules, follow them or face the consequences. Would love to see how they lose this case.

See, you're mistaking patriotism for PATRIOTISM™

The former is loving your country, the latter is a smokescreen to hide that you put your political party before your country. The latter has been more common among the GOP in recent years.

A fair trial is something bad?

Only to paranoid nationalists who love "America" but don't understand what America stands for.

[samureye]

See, you're mistaking patriotism for PATRIOTISM™

The former is loving your country, the latter is a smokescreen to hide that you put your political party before your country. The latter has been more common among the GOP in recent years.



Only to paranoid nationalists who love "America" but don't understand what America stands for.
What's GOP?

(not American, so looking to be enlightened)

[tokenuser]

What's GOP?

(not American, so looking to be enlightened)GOP = Grand Old Party ... the Republicans.

[xibalba]

What's GOP?

(not American, so looking to be enlightened)

Republican Party

[quix]

It stands for Grand Old Party and is one of the nicknames for the Republican Party.

[esophagus]

What's GOP?

(not American, so looking to be enlightened)
Its the Republican party.

[samureye]

*cue NBC's TMYK video*

[esophagus]

http://www.lies.com/wp/images/god_hates_fags.jpg

[samureye]

Okay, I'll be the odd ball of the group.

You've got competition there.


I don't see the harm in what the kid was wearing.

Neither do I. I think it's dumb and disagree, but there's no harm in wearing it in the appropriate situation. School is not appropriate.


What if he was wearing a shirt that said "McCain 08" on it?

That is patriotism. It is saying who you think is going to make better decisions for the community/country on a whole. Forget the "what if" and look at the "what did".

What if it was a picture of Obama with an X going through it? Those shirts have the potential for causing disruption.

Then the same thing would have happened. Be asked to turn the shirt inside-out, change the shirt, or GTFO.

He was expressing his opinion and exercising his first amendment right to free speech.

That doesn't overrule causing a ruckus in school. I recall you talking about some KKK march in your town or something, sometime ago and I think you and your friends wanted to do something about it. I could be totally wrong so don't quote me on it. The point is, isn't that their right to say how they feel about a race? (No, I am not a racist, so badger and aria refrain from taking something I am using for the purpose of illustration as though it's what I am saying, crumbles you better not put that in your signature.) But going through a town to spread that sort of hate isn't the right place to do something like that. Same goes for the school. The shirt was, at best, trolling IRL.

The school should have took at as an opportunity to teach the children how important our rights are.

Even better, they showed the children that people like you, who promote such garbage and try to disrupt a place like schools with an incendiary message in schools and try to hide it under the guise of free speech.

I believe patriotism is exercising your rights and that what the kid was doing.

I am now calling you MiniMcCain. (It's not name-calling, it's renaming.)

I believe money is edible. But I am wrong. Things mean what they mean, not what "you believe".

The shirt wasn't hurting anything.

It was hurting the teachers' ability to conduct whatever they were trying to do properly.

Okay, some thought it was disruptive

The teachers/principal thought that based on what was happening. Will we know the specifics? Not really. But it doesn't matter. Their opinion does, and in their opinion it was disruptive.

What if I came to school wearing a shirt with Boy George on it and all the other students wouldn't stop laughing at it? Wouldn't that be disruptive? Does that mean I wouldn't be able to wear that shirt?

You're comparing laughing and argument as one and the same? If people were laughing it's a simple matter of teachers saying to relax. People are not going to be laughing hysterically for more than an hour, and that's a very, very generous timeframe. 10 minutes and a shirt will get old. But to humor you, YES, disruptive means turn it inside out, change, or GTFO.

The teachers should have took it as an opportunity to educate the students on their rights and those offended should take it as a life lesson. You're not going to agree with what everyone else thinks so it's best to get used to it now.

That's exactly what the stupid boy and father learned.


Oh and before anyone makes any accusations I'm an Obama supporter.

You're a McCain apologist.

[esophagus]

http://grannygeek.us/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/phelps-followers.jpg

[esophagus]

I'm not spamming. It comes with the territory. Should those children be allowed to wear their shirts to school?

[samureye]

It's not spam.

[esophagus]

You posted it twice now. How is that not spam? Why didn't you just ask the question the first time you posted it?

In my prior post you'll notice I mentioned I said a line has to be drawn somewhere. I said that line is hate speech. This is hate speech so no.A mod has already stated it isn't spam. I don't really need to defend myself.

God hates fags - A phrase that offends a person or group using false facts or things that can't be proven.
Obama is a terrorist - A phrase that offends a person or group using false facts or things that can't be proven.

Why is only one hate speech? I'm assuming the boy who wore the shirt wasn't using terrorist as a compliment.

[esophagus]

Saying Obama is a Terrorists best friend isn't hate speech.
This is where we disagree. How is that not a hateful thing to say?

Hate

Dislike somebody or something intensely

or

Have strong distaste for something

[samureye]

So patriotism only occurs if something positive is being stated? As stated earlier, I think patriotism involves exercising your rights. Men have died for those rights- putting them to use shows pride in what those rights stand for.

You are taking this entire topic in a broad context. You are just saying "Whatever, he should be able to bring chicken to the picnick." when you were told to bring vegetables. What you interpret patriotism to be and what it is are different, and you are wrong.

Patriotism: devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

What about the shirt showed love, support or defense of the country? Nothing, it was IRL flaming. He, like you, took the patriotism thing to mean what they want it to mean, and not what it should mean.


There lies the problem. Everything has the potential of being disruptive. It depends on others opinion. What if the children suddenly decided to make a big deal over someone wearing the color blue? Would they have to change their shirt?

Your logic is incredibly flawed as a human being. This is why you report anyone for name calling. You are unable to see things dynamically and everything must be robotic. In an analogy: lights can only be on or off for you. Introduce a dimmer and you're likea headless chicken. Certain things have a bigger severity over others. One shirt may be disruptive, yes. Another may be disruptive, but only enough to warrant the teachers saying not to wear it anymore.

It is school and there has to be a line drawn somewhere. That line for me would be things such as hate speech. This shirt however doesn't cross that line in my opinion.

The line is drawn BY THE SCHOOL. Your opinion doesn't matter, nor does mine, only the school's. Even here there's issues brought up for students and their hair, or not being able to wear a certain hat. Schools have rules. It's not a surprise, you're shown these rules, or at least parents are, before the child goes to the school. Going through with all the procedures to go to the school means you agree to abide by the rules to go to the school. If not, you GTFO and go elsewhere. But what happens? Parents don't give a rat's ass about that, and think things should be the way they want it, not the right way, which is how the school dictates. Nobody forces you to go to any school, I assume, in America.


Does Trinidad grant their citizens the right to free speech?

More free speech than the US. (http://www.news.gov.tt/index.php?news=420)
Here, in Trinidad and Tobago, the government supports this right, to the extent that since 2003, this country has consistently ranked among the top twenty countries in the world in the Annual World Press Freedom Index. Our ranking is the highest in the Caribbean, Central and South America and is even higher than the UK, France, Spain and the USA.




All because you don't agree with it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to say it.

I'm done with this thread and your tunnel-vision. Why? Some quotes from myself in this very thread:
" all for expressing yourself. If you think that about Obama, fine. I don't have to agree. But that was not the right place to have that shirt."
" I think it's dumb and disagree, but there's no harm in wearing it in the appropriate situation. School is not appropriate."

I'm an Obama suppoter and liberal Democrat.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Read between the lines. Patriotism is an expression of your support for you country. I and others express that support by excercising my rights.

Thats what Patriotisim is and thats how I'm patriotic. My rights are why I love this country. What better way to be patriotic then to put them to use? Thats what this country is all about.

I get the feeling you're just....being what you think is patriotic. With the whole "It's {patriotism} what makes this country what it is."

You remind me of Rudy Giuliani: All I hear is "Eagles, Apple Pie, Red, White and Blue, the right to bear arms, the right to vote, 9/11."


You get the last word.

/exits thread

[samureye]

No, it's not an attack. I haven't attacked you. I disagree with you, but haven't attacked you, and kept things civil. I just realized something that will make me avoid any sort of debate with you. Seriously. Based on the way your arguments go, I think if you were stopped by an officer you would want to be arrested or let off. No warning, just one or the other, like a robot. So, attack? No.

[esophagus]

THREAD CLOSED.




Oops. I'm not a mod. But its probably about that time.

[samureye]

Chalk it up to in the moment heatedness. But as I said it's not an attack, certainly not meant to insult. Though I totally get why "You are wrong as a human being." could potentially come off in a bad way. Accept my apologies, publicly. If you wish to report me, by all means. I'm not trying to get you to not do that or anything. I've apologized. If you want me to delete the offending posts, let me know.

[quix]

Saying Obama is a Terrorists best friend isn't hate speech.

It's saying that Obama is secretly plotting to overthrow the United States and supports Al-Qaeda(I'm assuming the shirt is supposed to tie into the lies about Obama being a Muslim.) I don't see how that wouldn't qualify as hate speech or at the very least slander.

[bigshotprof]

I don't see why we are arguing over whether the shirt is disruptive. Even Scary the Cable Guy himself admitted that his intention was to disrupt the school. Having the word terrorist scrawled across a grade school kid's chest in red is disruptive. Dad blathered that nobody'd do nuthin' if a kid went to school with an anti-God shirt on--which as usual is an empty straw man attack against an enemy that doesn't exist. Goth kids, kids with sarcastic political statements and others are constantly being sent home for such infractions. My own daughter almost got a trip to the Principal's office one 3rd grade Columbus Day, when she raised her hand and said "My dad says Columbus was a slave-trading monster." (Father wells with pride!).

For the record, though, I would not call this hate speech in the legal sense. Hate speech is directed at ethnic and/or racial GROUPS and indicates that someone is being singled out and threatened or victimized as a member of such. That didn't really happen here.

[quix]

I got the impression that the terrorist comment was along the same lines of what Sarah Palin said. You know the whole "All he cares about is reading them their rights" BS.

I believe they said something along those lines towards the end of the video. I'm not sure, I don't remember. It's 3:00 AM and I'm heading to bed. Watch for me and let me know in the morning. ;)

haha

You're right, it's to express anger over the fact that unlike Bush, Obama would obey the constitution when it comes to dealing with them. It may still qualify as hate speech(though probably not legally) though given that they seem to think that loving the Constitution and running the country according to it, means that he hates America.

[skyz]

Obama would obey the constitution when it comes to dealing with them.

<deep sigh>

you don't know what obama would do in any situation

you can't know what anyone would do in any situation

you may believe you may think you may believe or think due to what appears to you are necessary and sufficient reasons

but there is no way you can know

why is that so difficult to grasp ?

there is a vast difference between believing thinking and knowing

and that difference is anything but trivial

[esophagus]

<deep sigh>

you don't know what obama would do in any situation

you can't know what anyone would do in any situation

you may believe you may think you may believe or think due to what appears to you are necessary and sufficient reasons

but there is no way you can know

why is that so difficult to grasp ?

there is a vast difference between believing thinking and knowing

and that difference is anything but trivial
So we are supposed to avoid talking about presidential candidates?

"Well, I would tell you about his policy but I don't know if its really his policy."

We base what we say on what he says. No one is making things up.

"Obama is such a cool guy. I bet he would follow the consttitution."

Seriously.

[bigshotprof]

On a specifically unrelated but interesting tangent, I wonder whether ol' dad who is so worried about Obama hangin' out with a terrorist would consider Tim McVeigh a terrorist, or complain about the folk people in upstate NY who sheltered a guy who killed two State Policemen, or the underground movement that housed, fed and financed the man who assasinated abortion Dr. Bernard Slepian with a sniper rifle in the 90s. The old saying: "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" comes to mind.

[skyz]

So we are supposed to avoid talking about presidential candidates?

"Well, I would tell you about his policy but I don't know if its really his policy."

We base what we say on what he says No one is making things up.

"Obama is such a cool guy. I bet he would follow the constitution."

Seriously.

he says and i believe or think he will....

that is thinking and / or believing

that is not knowing

[skyz]

he says and i believe or think based on what he says and what i think i know about him by what he says he will act in such and such a way

that is thinking and / or believing

that is not knowing

[quix]

<deep sigh>

you don't know what obama would do in any situation

you can't know what anyone would do in any situation

you may believe you may think you may believe or think due to what appears to you are necessary and sufficient reasons

but there is no way you can know

why is that so difficult to grasp ?

there is a vast difference between believing thinking and knowing

and that difference is anything but trivial

I never said "know" but, I posted positively about Obama so I should have expected a condescending response about how I just don't "grasp" things.

[ariastar]

AH, I didn't realize that it was causing an actual disruption. I thought the school made a fuss over nothing. But the kid himself said other kids were reacting negatively to it, meaning it was a disruption. The teacher came over only after that.

Whether the kid was wearing an anti-McCain or anti-Obama shirt doesn't matter. That matters is it was a shirt that was indeed causing problems among the students. The school reacted appropriately and gave him options. It's going to help the school's case that this kid admitted on national tv that the teacher only stepped in after kids were calling names on the playground.

[radzack]

What's GOP?

(not American, so looking to be enlightened)

Just in case you still don't know...

it's the republican party.

[esophagus]

Heh, he accused me of being a McCain supporter and said I didn't know what patriotism was but he doesn't even know what the GOP is.
He could be patriotic. To his own country. Why does he need to know what the GOP is?

If anything, you are further disproving that you understand patriotism. It has nothing to do with loyalty to the US if you don't live there.

[quix]

Yep.

extra characters

[esophagus]

You just further proved that you misunderstood what I said. :)I understand perfectly. "LOL, he said I don't understand something, when in reality he doesn't understand something too!"

However, when you call yourself patriotic and defend a "patriotic" act, you need to know what patriotism is. When you're from Trinidad and in no way involved in the election, theres no real reason to know what the GOP is.

No one knows everything. Again, you need to add context to the situation.

[samureye]

I thought it was funny how he was being so judgmental of me. I got the impression as though he thought he knew it all and I had no clue what I was talking about.

Therefore, when I noticed he made the GOP comment I thought it was funny.

So no, you didn't understand perfectly. I didn't communicate that very well but now you know.
Your argument doesn't hold water.

My whole thing was that you are taking what you believe as something that is fact. I never claimed to know everything. Heck, I don't know squat about US politics, nor do I have to - I'm not voting. I am trying to know enough of what is going to affect me, however. Your "LOLZ @ sammy" doesn't look good. Looking it up, it seems GOP isn't even a real name, just what the Republican Party is referred to. It's like you making fun of a friend for asking why people call you phatlip when they know your name is Kyle. It's inconsequential and pointless. I literally cannot believe you would make me not knowing that a major point of something. Do you know what a wajank is here? No. And I don't expect you to. Nor does it matter.

The entire thread wasn't even that political. All one needs to know is these people are doing something and they represent supporters of the GOP. You are totally misinterpreting things and are getting caught up in what you're saying.

I got the impression as though he thought he knew it all and I had no clue what I was talking about.

It has nothing to do with research. You don't have to be a professional political analyst to look at the situation and see the nonsense. Take away the politics. If you wear a shirt that is disruptive, the school gives you these options, which you accept or you GTFO.

Now add in that it's supposed to represent patriotism. From the definitions I gave before, I don't see how talking bad about people is patriotic.

Patriotism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patriotism) - love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it; "they rode the same wave of popular patriotism"; "British nationalism was in the air and patriotic sentiments ran high"

If speaking ill of other people, saying things that are so ludicrous, and have no sort of proper evidence to back it up, saying Obama loves Al-Qaeda and wants to plot with them to kill Americans (because that is what he's saying by this shirt) is patriotic, then more power to ya.

You're meshing what patriotism is with "what patriotism means to you and with freedom of speech.

[esophagus]

Edit: Steering clear. I know when to say no. This time.

[esophagus]

Yeah. We're getting into personal debates, not really involved in politics. Time to move on.

[skyz]

I never said "know"


Obama would obey the constitution when it comes to dealing with them. Quix

...........

[tokenuser]

...........Sen. Obama, who has taught courses in constitutional law at the University of Chicago, has regularly referred to himself as "a constitutional law professor," most famously at a March 30, 2007, fundraiser when he said, "I was a constitutional law professor, which means unlike the current president I actually respect the Constitution." A spokesman for the Republican National Committee immediately took exception to Obama’s remarks, pointing out that Obama’s title at the University of Chicago was "senior lecturer" and not "professor."

UC Law School statement: The Law School has received many media requests about Barack Obama, especially about his status as "Senior Lecturer." From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School's Senior Lecturers have high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined.

So ... as a former Professor of Constitutional Law, who really understands what the constitution is, what it means, and importantly, how it is interpretted in the modern legal system, yeah, I think he would obey the constitution. For some unknown reason (actually, really well known - they love spreading FUD) the GOP like to focus on Obama being a Community Organiser and equating that with being a guidance counsellor at summer camp, while Palin is actually some foreign affairs genius (when did she get a passport again? what country did she use it to visit??)

[Source (http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/was_barack_obama_really_a_constitutional_law.html)]

[skyz]

I think he would obey the constitution.


you didn't need the barrage of words to get to i think he would rather than he would

all i was pointing out was thinking is not knowing

and i think that you know that token

[tokenuser]

you didn't need the barrage of words to get to i think he would rather than he would

all i was pointing out was thinking is not knowing

and i think that you know that tokenWe can't guarantee the actions of anyone. Given Obama's background though, I think that the way he knows the constitution has influenced his political career and decision process.

[skyz]

We can't guarantee the actions of anyone. Given Obama's background though, I think that the way he knows the constitution has influenced his political career and decision process.




you don't know what obama would do in any situation

you can't know what anyone would do in any situation

you may believe you may think you may believe or think due to what appears to you are necessary and sufficient reasons

but there is no way you can know



isn't that what i said ?

[tokenuser]

isn't that what i said ?It's hard to tell sometimes.

[skyz]

It's hard to tell sometimes.

what about this time ?

We can't guarantee the actions of anyone. Given Obama's background though, I think that the way he knows the constitution has influenced his political career and decision process.




you don't know what obama would do in any situation

you can't know what anyone would do in any situation

you may believe you may think you may believe or think due to what appears to you are necessary and sufficient reasons

but there is no way you can know

[quix]

And, you're assuming there was 100% certainty intended within the phrase "Obama would obey the Constitution" but, that's not there. I'm as sure as I can be that Obama would obey the Constitution, just as I'm as sure as possible that McCain will violate it regularly, but of course there's always somewhat of a chance that a candidate will do something entirely different from their rhetoric.

[tokenuser]

what about this time ?Nope. Still not getting it.

[skyz]

Nope. Still not getting it.

i find that difficult to believe however....


you don't know what obama would do in any situation

you can't know what anyone would do in any situation

We can't guarantee the actions of anyone. token

are these statements saying the same thing ? does anyone include obama ?

you may think skyz

I think token

any disagreement here that these statements yours and mine are in noway contradictory or confusing ?

you may you may think you may think due to what appears to you are necessary and sufficient reasons skyz

Given Obama's background though, I think that the way he knows the constitution has influenced his political career and decision process. token

the reasons you think as you do are: given obama's background and the way he knows the constitution has influenced his political career and decision process ?

yes or no ?

do you think these reasons are sufficient to support your thinking ?

yes or no ?

do you think these reasons are necessary to arrive at your conclusion ?

yes or no ?

[esophagus]

Skyz, what Token (and everyone) is saying is that when someone says "would obey" they aren't guaranteeing anything, you are just interpreting it that way. We can't know anything about either candidate, but we're not going to add "Well I would assume, I can't REALLY know that" to the end of every statement we make about either.

[skyz]

Skyz, what Token (and everyone) is saying is that when someone says "would obey" they aren't guaranteeing anything, you are just interpreting it that way. We can't know anything about either candidate, but we're not going to add "Well I would assume, I can't REALLY know that" to the end of every statement we make about either.

then they should add i think to their statements

for example: i think obama would obey the constitution

or in my opinion obama would

or even i am convinced obama would

'he would' is not defensible

[esophagus]

Read the last part of that post.

Besides, I seem to recall you making a lot of posts about "blind faith" in Obama. You don't know thats the reason people like him. You just think.

[skyz]

Besides, I seem to recall you making a lot of posts about "blind faith" in Obama. You don't know thats the reason people like him. You just think.

i never claimed to know ever

show me different i dare you

though it does appear to me that some people are willing to put faith in obama's presumed actions as predicted by what he says

how many people stand up in a wedding ceremony and say......

yet we know that at least 50% do not follow through in their actions


'he would' is invalid .

i'm done

i can't respect people who can't cop to the truth

[guytheninja]

i'm done

i can't respect people who can't cop to the truth



Come on now, lets not get angry about this. now matter who becomes president, the Iraq War will still be going on, the debt will be just as sky high, and everything else in this country will be in the same shape.

Washington D.C. is such a deadlocked, rusted-over, machine anyway. I'm not convinced that those politicians can do anything other than vote to raising their salaries.

[burkhartmj]

To bring it back to the topic.....

Being a McCain supporter, I think the kid and parents were completely and utterly wrong, and the school acted not only within its boundaries, but exemplary of how a school should react to such a situation. If the shirt had rainbows on it, and that caused a real disruption [which wouldn't happen, just making a point], he should be forced to change or GTFO, it has nothing to do with the motivation of the shirt.

I might disagree with Obama on issues, but I do believe he is as much a patriot as McCain, and doesn't love terrorists in the least. I get angry anytime someone even suggests that Obama is a terrorist or a muslim just to rationalize supporting McCain while ignorant of the issues. people love to attack the candidates themselves because it's easier than learning about their actual positions on things.

[peppersghost]

I 100% believe this kid should be allowed to wear this shirt, but I support Obama and hope he becomes our new leader.

[skyz]

Come on now, lets not get angry about this. now matter who becomes president, the Iraq War will still be going on, the debt will be just as sky high, and everything else in this country will be in the same shape.

Washington D.C. is such a deadlocked, rusted-over, machine anyway. I'm not convinced that those politicians can do anything other than vote to raising their salaries.

i'm not angry i'm disgusted

twisting / denying the truth has always been my pet peeve since i was a child

and i agree with whether it is obama 'the wonderful reincarnation of mlk and jfk' or mccain 'the awful just like bush senile....'

both / either of them i think would do anything to get elected

it isn't going to make much difference who wins

we still lose

there is a reason why those who are truly capable never end up as prez

because politics is closer to advertising than it is to government

if you can fool enough of the people you win

i don't think there is much authentic concern for americans anywhere in politics

with few rare exceptions

of which few i do not think obama is one

that is all i have ever meant in all i have ever said

politics is lies partial truths self serving blaming.... in such a tangled web no one could ever untangle it

i don't think anyone really even wants to really get to the truth even if it were possible

it is big time depressing

[esophagus]

i never claimed to know ever
Okay.
so even though you might not have thought that most obama supporters would

it is the blind faith in obama that concerns me
You claimed to know the thoughts of the majority of Obama supporters here.if obama is elected we are in for a lot of talking
Here you claim to know what we're in for if Obama gets in the Whitehouse.
how come it is way cool is diss mccain or sarah or hillary but to merely say 'i don't see it about obama' is cause for outrage
Here you claimed we all think its cool to diss McCain and Palin but hate bad talk of outrage.

Now, these are obviously all small details. I don't think that you should have phrased them any differently because when I read them I understand they are opinion without you saying so. That is the case with what Quix said too. We know he can't know what Obama will do. We don't think he does.

[samureye]

To bring it back to the topic.....

Being a McCain supporter, I think the kid and parents were completely and utterly wrong, and the school acted not only within its boundaries, but exemplary of how a school should react to such a situation. If the shirt had rainbows on it, and that caused a real disruption [which wouldn't happen, just making a point], he should be forced to change or GTFO, it has nothing to do with the motivation of the shirt.

I might disagree with Obama on issues, but I do believe he is as much a patriot as McCain, and doesn't love terrorists in the least. I get angry anytime someone even suggests that Obama is a terrorist or a muslim just to rationalize supporting McCain while ignorant of the issues. people love to attack the candidates themselves because it's easier than learning about their actual positions on things.
Can we be friends? Please. I like sorrounding myself with people who say smart things.

[esophagus]

Can we be friends? Please. I like sorrounding myself with people who say smart things.
Thats why we get along so well. :cool:

[ariastar]

I 100% believe this kid should be allowed to wear this shirt, but I support Obama and hope he becomes our new leader.

I would agree if the other kids weren't reacting negatively to it. He was allowed to wear it until other kids started saying things about it to the point a teacher had to get involved.

[tokenuser]

[COLOR="Plum"]the reasons you think as you do are: given obama's background and the way he knows the constitution has influenced his political career and decision process ?

yes or no ?

do you think these reasons are sufficient to support your thinking ?

yes or no ?

do you think these reasons are necessary to arrive at your conclusion ?

yes or no ?yes. yes. yes. predicate calculus.

you say you should go to law school.

would a deeper knowledge of the law ground you in the principles behind decisions you make?

does a deeper understanding of eastern philosophy ground your critical thinking and emotional response?

based on the facts as they are known, Obama understands the constitution.

we understand that you don't like the guy.

as a politician he fascinates me, but I can't vote.

McCain fascinated me as well - 8 years ago.

Palin disturbs me.

[esophagus]

Ha.

five characters

[samureye]

Thats why we get alone so well. :cool:


That typo is so going to give people the wrong idea.

[esophagus]

What typo? ;)

Gone back and edited.

[samureye]

But the quote lives on...

[skyz]

you say you should go to law school.

would a deeper knowledge of the law ground you in the principles behind decisions you make?

maybe but surely i would be rewarded for being able to make a cogent valid sound argument

why argue for free when i can get well paid for it

does a deeper understanding of eastern philosophy ground your critical thinking and emotional response?

we understand that you don't like the guy.



yes absolutely i clearly understand that people unless unusually evolved are self centered so their behaviors have little to do with me and everything to do with them i don't take things personally

i don't dislike obama i just don't see much in him other than skillful self aggrandizing which in eastern philosophy is not considered worthy or admirable though in the west is pretty much a religion

[guytheninja]

i don't dislike obama i just don't see much in him other than skillful self aggrandizing which in eastern philosophy is not considered worthy or admirable though in the west is pretty much a religion

I agree with this. I was not pleased with either candidate. McCain did give some lip service to reducing this enormous debt we have in this country, but he sounds a little too much like his predecessor Bush. And Obama only talked about NOT being like George Bush. Neither one wanted to be George Bush, but that doesn't tell me much.

Neither one of these guys seems to have a plan. I say make them both co-presidents.

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=r1WAoxuqQfs

[tokenuser]

i don't dislike obama i just don't see much in him other than skillful self aggrandizing which in eastern philosophy is not considered worthy or admirable though in the west is pretty much a religionsomeone that has graduated from law school and could go into a law firm and earn big bucks decides instead to become a community activist.

yes. that is truly the trait of the self aggrandizing, and not something that someone who follows eastern philosophy would do.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

someone that has graduated from law school and could go into a law firm and earn big bucks decides instead to become a community activist.

yes. that is truly the trait of the self aggrandizing, and not something that someone who follows eastern philosophy would do.
Please tell me that's not your new font.

[skyz]

someone that has graduated from law school and could go into a law firm and earn big bucks decides instead to become a community activist.

yes. that is truly the trait of the self aggrandizing, and not something that someone who follows eastern philosophy would do.


columbia university

harvard law

president of harvard law review

community activist (not quite clear on how these activities actually served anyone)

state senate

us senate (most of which term has been spent in runing for):

potus

it looks to be like a clearly calculated career path

you see it different fine

but don't try to sell me that obama is now a bodhisattva

he is your object of fascination

he is not mine

in order to become so he is going to have to do something that benefits someone other than himself

to quote the tao: “The best leaders are those the people hardly know exist.
The next best is a leader who is acclaimed and praised.
Next comes the one who is feared.
The worst one is the leader that is despised.


The best leaders value their words, and use them sparingly
When he has accomplished his task,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"


token you are way out of your league debating eastern philosophy with me

[bigshotprof]

community activist (not quite clear on how these activities actually served anyone)






On this issue (since the party of 1,000 points of light decided that this year's object of ridicule de jour--they couldn't use 2004s because this time war heroes are off limits) it bears mentioning that Obama was a community organizer, not a community activist (although the latter could be considered a subset of the former). It was his profession. In that profession he managed a large staff and coordinated to activities of hundreds of people. He was also responsible for managing budgets upward of half a million dollars. In short while his organization was not as well known-he was pretty much the kind of "community activist" Elizabeth Dole was when she ran the Red Cross, and tons more of one than Miss Congeniality was when she was in the PTA.


On the irony front, I am here in the front row waiting for the "who knows best" zen buddhist enlightenment thunderdome--Two go in, only one achieves Nirvana!"

Frankly the Jewel/Gandhi undercard was a little one-sided I hope you all come out swinging.

[quix]

columbia university

harvard law

president of harvard law review

community activist (not quite clear on how these activities actually served anyone)

state senate

us senate (most of which term has been spent in runing for):

potus

it looks to be like a clearly calculated career path

Of course it is. McCain's is equally calculated and Hillary's was equally calculated. What's wrong with the fact that he worked to achieve in his life? What's wrong with someone who wants to be President spending his life trying to learn the law and then trying to implement it?

but don't try to sell me that obama is now a bodhisattva

No one has claimed he is, merely that he'll be a good President. It's only the Republicans who have referred to him in religious terminology.

in order to become so he is going to have to do something that benefits someone other than himself

He already has. If he was as self-centered as you claim, he would have kept the job he briefly had on Wall St. and would have never returned to the South Side to help his community. Unfortunately for your argument, he gave up the job and became a Community Organizer. How is that selfish?

[skyz]

i don't dislike obama i just don't see much in him other than skillful self aggrandizing ....


"This is something that all of us will swallow hard and go forward with," said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. "The option of doing nothing is simply not an acceptable option."


notice the use of the words: WE ALL US

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., sought credit for taxpayer safeguards added to the initial proposal from the Bush administration. "I was pushing very hard and involved in shaping those provisions," he said

notice the use of the word: I

that is self aggrandizing plain ans simple

that to me is a turn off i don't expect anyone else to see it that way but i must insist on my right to call it as i see it

and for the x number of times i am not for either of them

abc (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=5902159)

[esophagus]

notice the use of the words: WE ALL US

notice the use of the word: I

that is self aggrandizing plain ans simple

that to me is a turn off i don't expect anyone else to see it that way but i must insist on my right to call it as i see it

and for the x number of times i am not for either of them

abc (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=5902159)They're talking about two entirely different things. All of America can't be putting policies in place. You're not all senators and presidents.

Here (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/obama-says-we-can-mccain/story.aspx?guid={240A5D0D-378C-4B02-847A-4D5FD72A2CB2})'s an article arguing the opposite of what you are using thoughts rather than the words themselves. Which makes sense.

Whether you would like to admit it or not, you're as color by bias as all of the "Obama cult members".

[skyz]

Whether you would like to admit it or not, you're as color by bias as all of the "Obama cult members".

i admit it i am biased by not by the same or equal reasons you credit me with

i don't think obama can / will deliver on what he says or implys he can / will

if he wins then we'll see if i just might think what is true

no mater how miniscule a value you might place on my opinion

the possibility does exist i might be right

he wouldn't be the first person any of us ever 'knew' who talked big and did not necessarily act that way

i mean for real no give the impression of

i'm bored with obama already

i have a feeling i a not extremely unique in this

go ahead and adore him i don't mind

i'm not trying to change your minds

i'm just trying to point out your trust may be exaggerated or misplaced

i've i'm wrong i'll admit it

:rolleyes:

[quix]

Why does it matter if you're 'bored' with Obama? He's running to be the American President, not American Idol.


and for the x number of times i am not for either of them

Then why are all of your posts about the candidates negative towards Obama and positive towards McCain? You've clearly already chosen, you just don't want to admit it.

[skyz]

you've clearly already chosen, you just don't want to admit it.

i'm not voting for either

i think they are pretty much equally as bad or as good

for you to assume you know my mind is presumptuous

maybe it is you i am actually bored with :p or the most bored with

anyway babble on

i'm over it

now i remember why i had you on ignore

[comhcinc]

now i remember why i had you on ignore

cause he makes accurate points?

[quix]

i'm not voting for either

i think they are pretty much equally as bad or as good

Not voting doesn't necessarily equate to not supporting one or another, though.

Also, if you think they're equally bad, why were you defending McCain and attacking Obama on the previous page?

for you to assume you know my mind is presumptuous

Wouldn't that make you equally presumptuous given that you assume you know Obama's mind?

[tokenuser]

token you are way out of your league debating eastern philosophy with meWho's debating eastern philosophy? ... just trying to cast the argument in a form that you might understand.

[bigshotprof]

I was watching the pilot of Monk last night. A politician asked Sharona who she is for and she said "I don't vote. It just encourages them."

[skyz]

cause he makes accurate points?

no because he thinks he can read my mind

that is presumptuous

actually quite laughable :D

just because one team makes a good play and you acknowledge it does not mean you are for that team (using sports as a metaphor)

obama is not all wonderful in every possible way

and mccain is not all terrible in every possible way

imbalance in thinking is almost assuredly inaccurate

when i argue it is in the abstract not the particular

i'm a philosopher not a politician

i am interested in the ideas behind things not the things themselves

[skyz]

I was watching the pilot of Monk last night. A politician asked Sharona who she is for and she said "I don't vote. It just encourages them."

at this point i wish they would both STFU

i've had enough

thankfully i don't have a tv

i don't even see the ads

[quix]

no because he thinks he can read my mind

that is presumptuous

I'm not reading your mind. I'm assessing your opinion based on what you have posted. Also, if that's presumptuous for me, you're equally presumptuous for ascribing motives to Obama.

obama is not all wonderful in every possible way

No one except some mythical Obama supporter who isn't here has said he was. I think Obama was wrong on issues such as FISA and marriage equality. However, of the two plausible candidates he is superior by a good measure to McCain.

and mccain is not all terrible in every possible way

I'm sure there's something nice about him, but he's a liar, a warmonger, and an elitist.