I like Obama because he is black.... [Archive]

smeerkaas

10-11-2008, 11:41 PM

Everybody should vote for their own reasons. You don't have to answer to anybody else when voting. Just to yourself. So even when you vote for the most stupid of reasons, that is still a vote, and it should count. That is what democracy stands for. The people speak, including those who are clueless.

Personally I think voting for a person because he is a certain race of color is lunacy. Being black does not make you a good leader. Neither does being white, yellow, red, green or purple with pink polka dots. It is the policies you intend to implement that matter. Your stand on issues. Race should not be a factor. Nor should religion be. Voting for a candidate because he or she is a devout christian, of muslim, or whatever, is in my opinion just as rediculous a reason to vote for someone. But I'll repeat: you should make your own mind up and vote for whoever you want to see in the White House. Even if you decide you want a black guy because he is black, a woman because she is female, a christian because he or she believes in a higher power, or another texas redneck warmonger just because you like to see your neighbour's son get killed in a desert on the other side of the world.

Just as long as you vote. Demand responsibility.

rabidbadger

10-12-2008, 12:27 AM

I like the way you think. But your spelling, not so much. ;)

But seriously. I think the rise in black votership, which was heavily toward Hillary early on, shifted toward Obama after the Iowa Caucus. They realized, Hey, if a bunch of white midwesterners made him viable, then we'll look into him too.

I'm being simplistic here, but just to make a point, and I'm not using "black" as a race term here, but as a "group of people with shared interests, voting for someone who shares some of those interests." Hell, I was all for Hillary at first, but if it wasn't Obama, and was a gay athiest (of any race) I'd be interested in at least researching him/her. But if he/she wasn't in a agreement with things I hold dear, (ending the war, universal health care... etc) then screw him/her. Back to Hillary for me.

bigshotprof

10-12-2008, 02:07 AM

I see your point. Given the regularity of black Presidents in our proud history, why would blacks be motivated to flock to this guy just because he's one of them.

rabidbadger

10-12-2008, 03:00 AM

I don't know if you're being rhetorical or sarcatic. That's why I love you. And hate you. Don't I?

tokenuser

10-12-2008, 03:11 AM

(i 've notice that black people are not allowed to have tiger woods but they are allowed to have obama, why?)Percentages ...

Tiger Woods is only 25% Black (in fact one-quarter Chinese, one-quarter Thai, one-quarter African American, one-eighth Native American, and one-eighth Dutch).

rabidbadger

10-12-2008, 03:39 AM

(i 've notice that black people are not allowed to have tiger woods but they are allowed to have obama, why?)

I don't know what you mean by "have"? Honestly. I don't know what that means ???

smeerkaas

10-12-2008, 03:40 AM

I like the way you think. But your spelling, not so much. ;)

I'm not a native speaker. I'm Dutch. Please tell me where I made spelling errors so I can learn from those mistakes, thank you ;)
Although my spelling is probably still better than most native speakers. Lol. Food for thought indeed.

Again: vote. That is the most important thing. If you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain. Now is the time to make a difference. If that means you vote for someone solely because of their skin color, so be it.

Otherwise: shut up and deal with it. :)

P.S. sarcatic? What was that comment again about my spelling? :D

ariastar

10-12-2008, 04:20 AM

Just as long as you vote. Demand responsibility.

Voting for someone for the reasons you listed isn't responsible. It's stupid. We don't need someone who knows the difference between plus and regular tampons or whatever. We need someone who can run this god damned country, regardless of race, gender, etc.. Voting for reasons like you listed is just stupid and I'd rather those people didn't vote.

smeerkaas

10-12-2008, 07:58 AM

Voting for someone for the reasons you listed isn't responsible. It's stupid. We don't need someone who knows the difference between plus and regular tampons or whatever. We need someone who can run this god damned country, regardless of race, gender, etc.. Voting for reasons like you listed is just stupid and I'd rather those people didn't vote.

While I agree that voting would be more meaningful if everybody voted for the right reasons, I think your view is fundamentally undemocratic. A vote is a vote. Your vote, perhaps thought over long and hard, is just as valuable as a vote from a person that just looks at skin color, and not at all at the candidate's actual merits. It is that basic right that everyone can have their say, that makes a democracy work. If you were to decide who may vote, based on their effort to choose wisely, it may very well be a better outcome, but it would not be a democratic one.

Stupid people have just as much rights as you do. Voting included.

skyz

10-12-2008, 11:33 AM

Stupid people have just as much rights as you do. Voting included.

and also who or what determines who is stupid

almost everyone thinks they fall into the 'smart' group and it is 'other people' who are sthe 'stupid' ones

so what determines 'smart' ?

university degree ?

income ? of material success ?

family back ground ?

IQ test scores ?

grades in your classes ?

or is it your opinions ?

tokenuser

10-12-2008, 01:00 PM

masherscf

10-12-2008, 01:38 PM

When asked 65% of people say they are of above average intelligence

Five people take a math test. They score 100, 95, 90, 90 and 10 respectively. The average score is 77. Therefore, 80% of the students scored "above average."

The customary IQ score favors the young. I often find people who boast high IQ, but haven't been tested for fifteen years. Your IQ is not constant, it goes down as you get older because of the way it is computed. Observe, Doogie Houser, a seventeen year old surgeon is genius, a 27 year old surgeon is remarkable, but a 37 year old surgeon is mundane.

My wife often scores highly on standard IQ tests because she knows how to answer the questions.

skyz

10-12-2008, 01:45 PM

When asked 65% of people say they are of above average intelligence.
I guess that at least 23% of them are wrong.

If you want to take the classic IQ test (and despite all its flaws, its still proves to be a fairly accurate indicator of intelligence --- just not common sense sometimes):

80-120 IQ is considered "average", as 80% of all people have IQ in this range
Less than 80 = below average (10% of population)
Between 120-148= above average (8% of population)
Above 148= 2% of population
121-140 above average
141-160 high above average
161-180+ genius

Intelligence means very little when it comes to voting. Some of the smartest people I know are clueless when it comes to the practicalities of daily life or an understanding of current affairs.

i know the above well i've taken those tests about 5 times

what i was really referring to is how those who think that others are stupid (implying that they are smart or even uber smart) base their criteria for assuming they are in the smart group and deciding that others are in the stupid group

even though i could wave my IQ scores as a banner i see as 'intelligent' those who handle life well who are happy and content with life and are not determined to force it into being what they want it to be in such a way that it serves them and only them

who take advantage of opportunities to improve their lives and those of others and who do not take advantage of people in order to support their idea of how things should be

i guess my concept of intelligence has a great deal of overlap into self awareness or essentially wisdom (which is not measurable by any test)

being in touch with and in harmony with reality as it is rather than what you wish it to be even if or especially if attempting to force your illusion / delusion into existence requires inordinate effort which since it is not based in truth is doomed to failure

at least sisyphus knew he was never going to get that rock to the top of the hill but many think that they can insist that things be their way even though their logic is deeply flawed and prevail

they are unwise and therefore in practical terms: stupid

skyz

10-12-2008, 01:49 PM

My wife often scores highly on standard IQ tests because she knows how to answer the questions.

i scored well but i was often confused about the answers to the questions as in did they want ultimate truth or the standard everday truth ;)

masherscf

10-12-2008, 01:52 PM

i scored well but i was often confused about the answers to the questions as in did they want ultimate truth or the standard everday truth ;)

You think too much. In logic questions, there's only one truth and it's usually the obvious one.

skyz

10-12-2008, 02:30 PM

You think too much. In logic questions, there's only one truth and it's usually the obvious one.

i don't think too much i think too deep

i understand that now but when i was younger and faced my first IQ tests i didn't

i always outscored everyone else in my class anyway so in the end it didn't matter in the academic context

now that i am out of school and in real life it matters very much because it shapes the life i live and the people who i choose and who choose me as friends and colleagues

tokenuser

10-12-2008, 02:49 PM

Five people take a math test. They score 100, 95, 90, 90 and 10 respectively. The average score is 77. Therefore, 80% of the students scored "above average."For the math test anyway.

... and 5 is not a large enough population set to produce a result of any statistical significance.

comhcinc

10-12-2008, 02:56 PM

I don't know what you mean by "have"? Honestly. I don't know what that means ???

when tiger woods first came on the scene and started racking up big win he was dismissed ( all he has is a long game he will never win the a championship )

then he won some championships and black people got a little pride for kicking ass and all of a sudden all these stories started coming out about how he wasn't really black, he was half this and a third that and one forty this other thing.

basically it seem to me (and others ) that lots of rich white people wasn't going to allow a black man to dominate their rich white person sport. they couldn't beat him so they had to make him less black.

i bet the same thing will happen if obama wins. right now he is that black arab muslin but if he wins the tune will change and he is be mixed again.

masherscf

10-12-2008, 03:48 PM

They make up that Obama is "Arab" and "Muslim" because it's more acceptable in public to hate him for that. They also use the term "bloodlines," like they have some great pedigree.

skyz

10-12-2008, 04:56 PM

For the math test anyway.

... and 5 is not a large enough population set to produce a result of any statistical significance.

and if the math class is a college one it is already a 'selected' group as the less teachable % has already been eliminated

even if it is a high school test you are excluding those who never went to school or never got as far as high school

a true average means the geniuses are included as well as the clinically mentally deficient

masherscf

10-12-2008, 05:06 PM

For the math test anyway.

... and 5 is not a large enough population set to produce a result of any statistical significance.

Says who? The entire population is five. Since when is 100% of a population an insufficient sample. The results are absolutely significant and unambiguous. The class has five people, the average test score is 77. Four out of five people scored higher than the average.

I'm just pointing out that if by average you mean "arithmetic mean", the mean does not represent the 50% percentile by definition. The reason why we can make such assumptions for large populations is the central limit theorem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem.

And yes, if my class had 1,000 people in it and not five, the odds are good that the 50% percentile would also be the mean.

skyz

10-12-2008, 05:23 PM

They make up that Obama is "Arab" and "Muslim" because it's more acceptable in public to hate him for that. They also use the term "bloodlines," like they have some great pedigree.

it may be true actually that obama's father was a black muslim but that doesn't make obama a muslim

to someone like me even if his father was muslim as well as black it wouldn't make any difference because i know that muslim does not = terrorist

but to the ignorant christian the connotation muslim or arab means 'the evil ones' just like to the muslim extremists the christians are to be destroyed for the glory of allah

in ireland and throughout european history it was the catholics and the protestants at different times in different places seeing evil in the other

it is not logically valid in any case

but people tend to be more emotionally driven than logically driven

it is a matter of projection and fear

in order for an ignorant person to feel good about themselves they need to be able to project their own less than good characteristics onto someone else

and since at an unconscious or subconscious level they know there is evil to be feared in them then they fear the 'other' whoever they might be

faith based religions cause a lot of problems as people who place their faith in a mystical entity have a great need to in essence protect their investment

skyz

10-12-2008, 05:29 PM

Says who? The entire population is five. Since when is 100% of a population an insufficient sample. The results are absolutely significant and unambiguous. The class has five people, the average test score is 77. Four out of five people scored higher than the average.

I'm just pointing out that if by average you mean "arithmetic mean", the mean does not represent the 50% percentile by definition. The reason why we can make such assumptions for large populations is the central limit theorem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem.

And yes, if my class had 1,000 people in it and not five, the odds are good that the 50% percentile would also be the mean.

i knew someone who was a 4.0 brilliant in math student in high school with ease he was in that context far above the average

he went to harvard where he had to work hard to keep a B- average so in that context he was pretty much average

remarkable

10-15-2008, 05:32 PM

Says who? The entire population is five. Since when is 100% of a population an insufficient sample. The results are absolutely significant and unambiguous. The class has five people, the average test score is 77. Four out of five people scored higher than the average.

No, your analysis is absolutely NOT significant/unambiguous. Your analysis is actually completely incorrect and misleading. Why? It's nothing to do with the size of the population. The point is - in your example, the population is not even close to being normally distributed. So, your choice of the arithmetic mean as an estimate of the "average" (aka "expected") value of this population is not acceptable because it gives a value for the average which is so wildly in error as to be meaningless.

phatlip12

10-15-2008, 05:35 PM

masherscf

10-15-2008, 05:46 PM

No, your analysis is absolutely NOT significant/unambiguous. Your analysis is actually completely incorrect and misleading. Why? It's nothing to do with the size of the population. The point is - in your example, the population is not even close to being normally distributed. So, your choice of the arithmetic mean as an estimate of the "average" (aka "expected") value of this population is not acceptable because it gives a value for the average which is so wildly in error as to be meaningless.

The Arithmetic mean has a specific definition. It is not based on the normal distribution. I never said it was. Colloquially, when people talk about "average", they're referring the arithmetic mean.

The "average" has no definitive connection to the expected value because the expected value is is not a statistical concept, it is a probabilistic one. Average is a statistic. The average is based on sampling only. It not based on an assumed distribution.

The connection between the average and the expected value is the Central Limit Theorem. It states that if a random variable follows a normal distribution, the arithmetic mean of the any sample will converge to expected value as the sample size grows. Therefore, for large populations, the arithmetic mean is a good approximation of the expected value given a sufficiently large sample.

The whole point of my argument was that the "average" or arithmetic mean wasn't a good indicator of the 50% percentile in all cases. That would be the median.

remarkable

10-15-2008, 09:16 PM

The Arithmetic mean has a specific definition. It is not based on the normal distribution. I never said it was.

Eh? I didn't say anything about the arithmetic mean being based on the normal distribution. I did, however, say that in your specific example, the arithmetic mean is a staggeringly poor estimator of the average, because the population described was non-normal.

Colloquially, when people talk about "average", they're referring the arithmetic mean.

No, they are really not (and in the cases that they are, they are mistaken to think that). Colloquially, and otherwise, when people talk about average, the concept in their minds is, in some sense, the "central value" of the distribution. By all means, don't take my word for it. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

The "average" has no definitive connection to the expected value because the expected value is is not a statistical concept, it is a probabilistic one. Average is a statistic. The average is based on sampling only. It not based on an assumed distribution.

I think you're confusing "arithmetic mean" with "average". Not only does "average" have a definitive connection to the expected value... it *is*, to all intents and purposes, the expected value.

The connection between the average and the expected value is the Central Limit Theorem.

You're confusing arithmetic mean with average again. In the general case, as I said originally, it's the expected value that people are thinking of when they think what an average value is. Again, by all means, don't take my word for it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

The whole point of my argument was that the "average" or arithmetic mean wasn't a good indicator of the 50% percentile in all cases. That would be the median.

Yes... but your whole argument is incorrect, in part precisely because "average" does not equal "arithmetic mean" in the general case; and also because you implied that it was sensible to use the arithmetic mean as an estimator of the center of a highly non-normal distribution.

comhcinc

10-15-2008, 09:25 PM

hmmmm who should i believe, the guy with a ph,D who has been posting here forever(and makes sense), or the guy who i know nothing about aguring math in a politics thread?

yeah i will stick with the Dr. on this one.

masherscf

10-15-2008, 10:27 PM

Dude, Wikipedia is not a proper reference. I am.

However,

The most common method is the arithmetic mean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean)

That is, not only is the Arithmetic mean an average, it is the most commonly used one. The mean is the one that is most associated with the concept. The mean is the first average that people learn how to compute.

Go back and read my post again.

The whole point of my argument was that the "average" or arithmetic mean wasn't a good indicator of the 50% percentile in all cases. That would be the median.

I was only comparing two type of averages, the mean and the median. There are more.

How do you compute the average? Please define it for me.

What is the average of 8,9,10,11 and 12? Compute it for me.

You paste these Wikipedia articles without reading or understanding them. The article back my observation completely.

rabidbadger

10-15-2008, 10:32 PM

what was this thread about again?

tokenuser

10-15-2008, 10:36 PM

Yes... but your whole argument is incorrect, in part precisely because "average" does not equal "arithmetic mean" in the general case; and also because you implied that it was sensible to use the arithmetic mean as an estimator of the center of a highly non-normal distribution.Pssst ... come over here, round the corner so people don't see us talking.

You know that guy you are arguing mathematics with? He is a tenured professor of mathematics at a well known university. If there was a court trial that needed someone to argue mathematics he could be called as an expert witness. Now, I know he is online under an alias, but I actually know his real name, and could point you to his web page at that institution (but to protect his privacy, I wont) - he is the real deal.

Beside the ability to create flawed arguments from wikipedia entries (which are not a citeable source for academic research - especially in sciences), what are your credentials?

rabidbadger

10-15-2008, 10:42 PM

I seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee you. (and hear ya) and can also vouch for masher.

masherscf

10-15-2008, 10:44 PM

Yes... but your whole argument is incorrect, in part precisely because "average" does not equal "arithmetic mean" in the general case; and also because you implied that it was sensible to use the arithmetic mean as an estimator of the center of a highly non-normal distribution.

This is the funniest part. My whole point was that the mean was NOT a proper stat to characterize the central point of the set of values. I constructed the data to be that way.

I constructed the data set so that the mean WOULD NOT be sensible to use the mean. I use the very example as a way to motivate my stats students to explore the use of other averages.

This was the entire purpose of my post. Go back and give it a gander.

Five people take a math test. They score 100, 95, 90, 90 and 10 respectively. The average score is 77. Therefore, 80% of the students scored "above average."

I merely observed that the mean was a well defined stat and that it's method of computation was easy to compute.

comhcinc

10-15-2008, 10:49 PM

You know that guy you are arguing mathematics with? He is a tenured professor of mathematics at a well known university.

well to be fair it is a state college :rolleyes:

tokenuser

10-15-2008, 10:49 PM

I seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee you. (and hear ya) and can also vouch for masher.So the ultar mini, split crotch underoos, and baseball cap pulled low over my strawberry blonde wig didn't fool you? Damn you are good ...

masherscf

10-15-2008, 10:50 PM

well to be fair it is a state college :rolleyes:

It's not a State College. But, I do see a lot of state money.

tokenuser

10-15-2008, 10:51 PM

well to be fair it is a state college :rolleyes:My wife teaches at a state college too - her school is ranked #1 ... so your point is? Its not Columbia (which is in a really really shitty neighborhood)?

comhcinc

10-15-2008, 10:51 PM

It's not a State College. But, I do see a lot of state money.
well around here the idea that a city could have it's own school is unheard!

(gets back to his community college homework)

masherscf

10-15-2008, 10:53 PM

My wife teaches at a state college too - her school is ranked #1 ... so your point is? Its not Columbia (which is in a really really shitty neighborhood)?

Com just knows that my paycheck is paid by an appointee of an elected official. Places like Buruch and John Jay.

remarkable

10-15-2008, 11:10 PM

How do you compute the average?
Please define it for me.

You paste these Wikipedia articles without reading or understanding them. The article back my observation completely.

LOL! Is that a fact? Well, let's define the term "average" shall we? From the Wikipedia article on "average":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

"In mathematics, an average, or central tendency of a data set refers to a measure of the "middle" or "expected" value of the data set. "

Notice how it says that the average is the "expected value", and links to the article on Expected Value:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

This is all very, very simple stuff. At the very most, this kind of stuff could be regarded as post-graduate level stats/probability. It is certainly not the kind of thing I would expect anyone at post-doctoral level to be having trouble with. To be honest, and I don't mean to be rude, I'm having a hard time believing you have a PhD in Maths, let alone that you're tenured maths professor (although obviously, not all PhDs are created equal, and not all universities are able to attract high-quality faculty). Please tell me that statistics/probability isn't your field, because honestly, you appear to have some serious gaps in your understanding.

If you can't understand the simple FACT (it's not a matter of opinion, or something that one chooses to "believe") that "average" is fundamentally about measuring the center of a distribution and, therefore, that the arithmetic mean is not a good measure of the center of a skewed distribution, then there is really no helping you.

I will leave it there... I can see this thread is going off-topic. I will just say that I hope Obama gets elected, and introduces some major reforms of the education system. There certainly seems to be a need for that...

comhcinc

10-15-2008, 11:16 PM

My wife teaches at a state college too - her school is ranked #1 ... so your point is? Its not Columbia (which is in a really really shitty neighborhood)?

i was just playing around with the notion that a state sponsored school isn't as good as a private school such as yale.

you know that school gw went to because he couldn't get into texas

masherscf

10-15-2008, 11:16 PM

This is all very, very simple stuff. At the very most, this kind of stuff could be regarded as post-graduate level stats/probability. It is certainly not the kind of thing I would expect anyone at post-doctoral level to be having trouble with. To be honest, and I don't mean to be rude, I'm having a hard time believing you have a PhD in Maths, let alone that you're tenured maths professor (although obviously, not all PhDs are created equal, and not all universities are able to attract high-quality faculty). Please tell me that statistics/probability isn't your field, because honestly, you appear to have some serious gaps in your understanding.

Dude, read my post. I don't have a problem understanding it. You have a problem reading.

If you did read both my posts and the Wikipedia, you'd realize they were consistent. I never said mean in the ONLY average. I said it was the most common, a fact that Wikipedia confirms.

But, you can't even compute a simple arithmetic mean without quoting Wikipedia that you don't understand.

In your own words. How you you compute the average of 8, 9, 10, 11, 12?

Do you even know what you're talking about?

comhcinc

10-15-2008, 11:17 PM

I will leave it there... I can see this thread is going off-topic. I will just say that I hope Obama gets elected, and introduces some major reforms of the education system. There certainly seems to be a need for that...

ha. isn't that a fact. you could certainly use a better education.

rabidbadger

10-15-2008, 11:21 PM

I'm guessing homeschooled. Which is remarkable , like the same way "the Earth is flat" is remarkable.

phatlip12

10-15-2008, 11:22 PM

This thread is hilarious. Who to believe, the math professor or the kid posting things from Wikipedia? Hmm....

comhcinc

10-15-2008, 11:24 PM

This thread is hilarious. Who to believe, the math professor or the kid posting things from Wikipedia? Hmm....
believe me. i am a war veteran

(hey it works for mccain)

rabidbadger

10-15-2008, 11:27 PM

not lately.

comhcinc

10-15-2008, 11:28 PM

not lately.
hey i am not trying to get elected to the highest office in the land either :D

tokenuser

10-15-2008, 11:31 PM

believe me. i am a war veteran

(hey it works for mccain)

USA USA USA USA USA
http://bp1.blogger.com/_F9j1lmEgVJA/R8TaJwogM6I/AAAAAAAABXw/3VTc8ncUKGY/s400/flag+pin.jpg

masherscf

10-15-2008, 11:46 PM

Well, if anyone else wants to be schooled in the difference between Statistics (averages including Mean, Median, Mode and other stats like Standard deviation) and Probability (Expected value). You can send me a PM.

Otherwise, I'm done.

remarkable

10-16-2008, 12:13 AM

Dude, read my post. I don't have a problem understanding it. You have a problem reading.

If you did read both my posts and the Wikipedia, you'd realize they were consistent. I never said mean in the ONLY average. I said it was the most common, a fact that Wikipedia confirms.

But, you can't even compute a simple arithmetic mean without quoting Wikipedia that you don't understand.

In your own words. How you you compute the average of 8, 9, 10, 11, 12?

Do you even know what your talking about?

OK - I will try one last time (I said I was done before, but I really am this time I promise). Let's forget about Wikipedia (because, to be fair, there're a lot of mistakes in it). The "arithmetic mean", the "mode" and the "median" are NOT AVERAGES as you keep saying they are. They are simply values that can be calculated from data sets, and are characteristics of distributions. BUT they are not averages in and of themselves.

Why? Because an "average" is a measure of the center of a distribution. Commonly you want to use an average in circumstances where it is desirable to use a single number (or small group of numbers, such as a central value, and a measure of the distribution width, say) to try to describe the distribution. Depending on the shape of the distribution, then the mean, and/or the median, and/or the mode MIGHT be good measures of the center, and so be USED as average values. Equally, however, all of these might be TERRIBLE measures of the center of the distribution, and so should NOT be used as averages.

So, what is the average of 8, 9, 10, 11, 12? It's 10. How did I "compute" that? I looked at the data set, and said to myself, "What number best represents the 'center' of this set of numbers?" For this data set, my brain used an "algorithm" that went through the following process:

- Recognized the pattern of numbers
- Recognized that, in this case, a good average could be most easily derived simply from picking out the middle number

So, my brain effectively chose to find the median for this data set, and use that as the average. Clearly, in this case, I could equally well have calculated the arithmetic mean, and come to the same answer, but my brain recognized that the median was the simplest computation for this case, and used that.

Of course, children are taught things like "the arithmetic mean is the average". That's a fine thing to teach a child, because they don't have all the concepts about probability, random variables, distributions etc that they need to understand some of the more advanced concepts and subtleties. That doesn't make it correct though.

By the way, when you want to ask sarcastic questions like, "Do you even know what your (sic) talking about?" you might want to check your grammar. Doesn't really make you like like a PhD and tenured professor, if you don't even know the difference between "your" and "you're"...

comhcinc

10-16-2008, 12:32 AM

Doesn't really make you like like a PhD and tenured professor, if you don't even know the difference between "your" and "you're"...

first off you are not endearing yourself to anyone here.

second so he misspelled a word or two. what are you the grammar police?

finally. you have been asked before and i am going to give you one more chance to reply.

we know masher's background. what is yours? why should i believe you over him?

if you decide not to answer these questions i am going to put you on ignore. i invite everyone else to do the same.

skyz

10-16-2008, 12:33 AM

you might want to check your grammar. Doesn't really make you like like a PhD and tenured professor, if you don't even know the difference between "your" and "you're"...

he does that to see if i'm paying attention ;)

i'm the grammar gestapo

masherscf

10-16-2008, 12:48 AM

By the way, when you want to ask sarcastic questions like, "Do you even know what your (sic) talking about?" you might want to check your grammar. Doesn't really make you like like a PhD and tenured professor, if you don't even know the difference between "your" and "you're"...

Oh no, Grammar police. I make grammar mistake when I'm online, oh well.

The Wikipedia article you love to post lists the following averages.

Mean and median

An average is a single value that is meant to typify a list of values. If all the numbers in the list are the same, then this number should be used. If the numbers are not all the same, an easy way to get a representative value from a list is to randomly pick any number from the list. However, the word 'average' is usually reserved for more sophisticated methods that are generally found to be more useful.

The most common method is the arithmetic mean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean). There are many other types of averages, such as median (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median) (used most often to describe house prices and incomes). [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average#cite_note-1)The average is calculated by combining the measurements related to a set and to compute a number as being the average of the set.

How can you quote a Wikipedia article to support your argument then write cockamamie post that completely dismisses it? Read on!

Crack the nearest stats book. Wait I have one here. Elementary Stats Second Edition, by Triola, page 85.

Basic Concepts and Measures of Center.

There are several different ways to measure the center, so we have different definitions of measures of center, including the mean, median, mode and mid-range.

Mean
The (arithmetic) mean is generally the most important of all numerical measurements used to describe data, and it is what most people call an average

...

Page 89

....

Unfortunately, the term average is sometimes used for any measure of center and is often used for the mean. Because of this ambiguity, the term average should not be used when referring to a particular measure. Instead we use the specific term, such as mean, median, mode, or mid-range.

That's not me, that the text.

My Wife, another Stats Professor adds, "An average is nothing more than a measure of the central tendency of a set of data, therefore they're all averages"

The table of contents of another Triola edition, look at the entry under "averages"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0321331834/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

So, you may not think Mean, Median and Mode are averages, but Triola thinks so....and he wrote the book.

tokenuser

10-16-2008, 02:03 AM

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 02:12 AM

A photon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon) is often referred to as a "light quantum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_quantum)." The energy of an electron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron) bound to an atom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom) (at rest) is said to be quantized, which results in the stability of atoms, and of matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter) in general. But these terms can be a little misleading, because what is quantized is this Planck's constant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_constant) quantity whose units can be viewed as either energy multiplied by time or momentum multiplied by distance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum

Hey guys! Look at me! I copy and pasted something off Wikipedia. Does that make me a physicists now?

tokenuser

10-16-2008, 02:24 AM

Hey guys! Look at me! I copy and pasted something off Wikipedia. Does that make me a physicists now?I doubt you are a physicist, you used the plural - "physicists" - to describe yourself, so you are either twice as good as everyone else, or schitzophrenic.

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 02:30 AM

I doubt you are a physicist, you used the plural - "physicists" - to describe yourself, so you are either twice as good as everyone else, or schitzophrenic.

Hey! Both Masher and I suck at grammar! Great minds think alike.

;)

tokenuser

10-16-2008, 02:32 AM

Great minds think alike. ... fools never differ :p

skyz

10-16-2008, 02:46 AM

Oh no, Grammar police. I make grammar mistake when I'm online, oh well.

The Wikipedia article you love to post lists the following averages.

Mean and median

How can you quote a Wikipedia article to support your argument then write cockamamie post that completely dismisses it? Read on!

Crack the nearest stats book. Wait I have one here. Elementary Stats Second Edition, by Triola, page 85.

That's not me, that the text.

My Wife, another Stats Professor adds, "An average is nothing more than a measure of the central tendency of a set of data, therefore they're all averages"

The table of contents of another Triola edition, look at the entry under "averages"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0321331834/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

So, you may not think Mean, Median and Mode are averages, but Triola thinks so....and he wrote the book.

so have we reached the midpoint yet ?

skyz

10-16-2008, 02:52 AM

(as I suspect you might be) an undeclared philosophy minor.

excuse me

he has demonstrated neither the necessary nor the sufficient conditions to imply or from which to infer any such state of mind

his mental process his use of argument is in no way sufficiently remarkable as would be necessary

please !

skyz

10-16-2008, 03:08 AM

I doubt you are a physicist, you used the plural - "physicists" - to describe yourself, so you are either twice as good as everyone else, or schitzophrenic.

sigh

he is a quantum physicist

in quantum mechanics it is possible to be in two places at one time

thus: physicists

esophagus

10-16-2008, 03:17 AM

excuse me

he has demonstrated neither the necessary nor the sufficient conditions to imply or from which to infer any such state of mind

his mental process his use of argument is in no way sufficiently remarkable as would be necessary

please ! An undeclared philosophy minor is generally not someone who I would consider to be really capable of philosophy. Had he said a tenured professor of philosophy, then you might have something to gripe about.sigh

he is a quantum physicist

in quantum mechanics it is possible to be in two places at one time

thus: physicists

Being in two places at the same time does not make you two people. It makes you one person in two places. But now we're getting philosophical. ;)

bigshotprof

10-16-2008, 03:22 AM

He is a physicists. He is also a deity. Like the Judeo Christian Yahweh, which is also a plural, he is the "I" as well as the transcendent "We." He is the way, the truth and the light. And who so ever believeth in him will Geek out to the max!

I would also say to an "undeclared philosophy major" what I would say to a graduate of acting school. "I ordered this medium RARE!"

guytheninja

10-16-2008, 03:30 AM

To be honest, and I don't mean to be rude, I'm having a hard time believing you have a PhD in Maths, let alone that you're tenured maths professor (although obviously, not all PhDs are created equal, and not all universities are able to attract high-quality faculty). Please tell me that statistics/probability isn't your field, because honestly, you appear to have some serious gaps in your understanding.

That's the rudest sentence I have ever seen, "to be honest". Is it possible to say something ruder than that? I really don't think so.

In fact, its so insulting, that it bothers me. Why would you want to say something like this to your fellow man? Even if Masher was incorrect, people make mistakes all the time -- "to err is human". You know, your life will be worlds easier if you learn how to get along with people; everyone has to learn this someday.

guytheninja

10-16-2008, 03:44 AM

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 03:50 AM

Phatlip12 ---> One Person, One Being
Yahweh ---> Three Persons, One Being

Conclusion ---> Phatlip needs 2 more persons.

Do any of the other 11 Phatlips count?

comhcinc

10-16-2008, 03:51 AM

Phatlip12 ---> One Person, One Being
Yahweh ---> Three Persons, One Being

Conclusion ---> Phatlip needs 2 more persons.

do hand puppets count?

guytheninja

10-16-2008, 04:33 AM

do hand puppets count?

The sock puppets have to be co-equal with the person we know as Phatlip12. Coequal in intelligence, worth, etc...

And they have to be of the same substance. (my head hurts now, thanks a lot guys).

remarkable

10-16-2008, 09:28 AM

we know masher's background. what is yours? why should i believe you over him?

if you decide not to answer these questions i am going to put you on ignore. i invite everyone else to do the same.

My highest qualification is a PhD from the University of Cambridge. I make use of a lot of cutting edge statistics and probability in my work. In terms of my probabilistic view of the world, I much more of a Bayesian than I am a Frequentist. Not that it matters - I don't think this discussion relies on academic credentials or people's backgrounds. It's sufficiently fact-based that anyone should be able to make their arguments without recourse to saying things like "I have a PhD, therefore I know what I'm talking about".

Having said it's fact-based, there's a problem in that different, contradictory, "facts" are taught in maths at various levels - elementary school, high-school, undergraduate level, post-graduate level etc. If you are in high-school and reading this, you should be aware that you're going to lose points if you say things like, "the mean is not an average...", because at high-school, people are looking for you to understand that, for many data sets found in the world, the mean is very often a great way to calculate an average value. By the time, though, you have a PhD in an area that needs really advanced, cutting-edge statistics/probability, people expect: a much deeper understanding of data distributions and how to work with them; and the ability discuss the subtleties of some concepts in a sophisticated way (use of the word "cockamamie" doesn't count, btw! LOL!). One of those subtleties is: just because the mean is sometimes a great way to *calculate* a useful average *value*, doesn't *make* it an average.

To make an analogy, saying the mean *is* an average, would be like saying, "I hired a big team of developers and artists with a track record of developing amazing video games. That means the game they just developed is great." Clearly, that's not the case. Whether or not the game is great or not is a property of the game. The way you developed it is irrelevant. It's a great game, if it's a great game. And if the game is no good, it's no good, even if the team that created it usually develops great games. Similarly, a number is an average of a data set if it's a good measure of its center. How you calculate that center is irrelevant. If you calculate the arithmetic mean of a data set, and it turns out to be a BAD measure of the center, it's NOT a good value to use as an average.

So, masher, your wife was absolutely 100% correct when she said, "An average is nothing more than a measure of the central tendency of a set of data". That's it! That's a great definition! It's a little oxymoronic, though, to add, "Therefore they're all averages", unless by "a measure" the intention was to imply "a measure, good or bad, useful or useless" rather than, in some sense, "a good, useful measure".

Anyway, clearly, we're getting nowhere fast with this line of discussion. I'd like to apologize to masher if he feels I insulted him in a serious way - I was only throwing back a little, because he wasn't exactly being super-polite to me ;-)

comhcinc

10-16-2008, 10:10 AM

My highest qualification is a PhD from the University of Cambridge. Not that it matters -

it doesn't cause i think you are not being truthful about that. a phD in what? you never answered my second question either.

i have a phD for the University of Larry, Darryl, and Darryl.

skyz

10-16-2008, 10:19 AM

That's the rudest sentence I have ever seen, "to be honest". Is it possible to say something ruder than that? I really don't think so.

In fact, its so insulting, that it bothers me. Why would you want to say something like this to your fellow man? Even if Masher was incorrect, people make mistakes all the time -- "to err is human". You know, your life will be worlds easier if you learn how to get along with people; everyone has to learn this someday.

i read an article once about how you can tell when a person is being less than honest

it gave certain physical clues (like blinking a lot avoiding eye contact) and it also said: when people start a sentence with frankly it means they are not being frank

which brings us to the classic philosophical dilemma: when rhett says to scarlett 'frankly my dear i don't give a damn' is he indeed being frank ?

skyz

10-16-2008, 10:25 AM

So, masher, your wife was absolutely correct when she said, "An average is nothing more than a measure of the central tendency of a set of data", but incorrect, and OXYMORONIC, when she added, "Therefore they're all averages." The point is - they *can* be good measures of the central tendency of a set of data in *some circumstances* e.g. in the case of a normal distribution. In such cases, they can usefully be used to calculate average values; but honestly, they are not averages in themselves. They are merely calculated properties of the data set.

Anyway, clearly, we're getting nowhere fast with this line of discussion! I'd like to apologize to masher if he feels I insulted him in a serious way - I was only throwing back a little, because he wasn't exactly being super-polite to me ;-)

you whine about masher's insufficient politenes and yet you insult his wife

poor form

you sir are no gentleman

remarkable

10-16-2008, 11:24 AM

you whine about masher's insufficient politenes and yet you insult his wife

poor form

you sir are no gentleman

LOL! That's a good joke if it's a joke. There was no insult. I take it you know what the word "oxymoronic" means?! For those, however, that may not know, "oxymoronic" is nothing to do with "moronic"! It simply means "contradictory" LOL! Jeeeeeze!

remarkable

10-16-2008, 11:29 AM

i have a phD for the University of Larry, Darryl, and Darryl.

That's nice. When are you intending to give it to them?

tokenuser

10-16-2008, 12:45 PM

My highest qualification is a PhD from the University of Cambridge. I make use of a lot of cutting edge statistics and probability in my work. In terms of my probabilistic view of the world, I much more of a Bayesian than I am a Frequentist. Not that it matters - I don't think this discussion relies on academic credentials or people's backgrounds. It's sufficiently fact-based that anyone should be able to make their arguments without recourse to saying things like "I have a PhD, therefore I know what I'm talking about".I am afraid that while you might be a bright guy, there are a couple of problems:

1. Your ability to read and comprehend stinks. This whole (derailed) discussion really wasn't about average, it was about skewed data. Masher illustrated his point with an example that shows that the meaning of average, and mean, median, and mode have vastly different meanings and interpretations.
2. As a PhD, you should realise that Wikipedia is not a valid reference source. It is written to the lowest common denominator of knowledge, and might be a good starting point for a discussion on a topic, but it is by no means a definative answer.
3. You are being a condescending ass who can't let go of an argument that they have lost.

therage800

10-16-2008, 12:53 PM

My highest qualification is a PhD from the University of Cambridge. I make use of a lot of cutting edge statistics and probability in my work. In terms of my probabilistic view of the world, I much more of a Bayesian than I am a Frequentist. Blah, blah, blah

You ever read a post written by someone whom is trying to sound smart and intellectual? It sounds a lot like that.

masherscf

10-16-2008, 12:56 PM

Anyway, clearly, we're getting nowhere fast with this line of discussion. I'd like to apologize to masher if he feels I insulted him in a serious way - I was only throwing back a little, because he wasn't exactly being super-polite to me ;-)

You don't insult me. You just don't understand basic text-book concepts of mathematics. We all have to agree on definitions or there's no point in discussing anything. Mathematics is not about personal feelings or experience. It's about agreed definitions.

This is not difficult stuff. You've been working so close in your own world that you've forgotten your first lessons.

We all agree that an average is a measure of the central tendency of a set of data. Computing an average has everything to do with set of data and nothing to do with what it might be predicting. An average is a value derived in some fashion from a sequence of numbers that somehow quantifies the central tendency of the sequence. Any quantifier of central tendency can be considered an average.

For example, students are given an average grade in the from of a GPA .This is not a straight arithmetic mean. But, it is still considered an average.

My only assertion, the one that you're having such trouble swallowing, is that the measure of central tendency that most people associate with the idea of an average is the arithmetic mean. This assertion is backed up by the Wikipedia article that you brought in and by a very popular Elementary Stats text by Triola.

Honestly, I was only having a little fun with TokenUser about the fact that his jokes assumed average was the 50% percentile when that wasn't the assumption that most people make. And, then I cooked up an example to illustrate that.

Your mistake was jumping into a conversation between long-time friends without realizing I was being over-the-top facetious.

You claim to use "cutting" edge Probability and Statistics in your work. But, a lot of people use Math that they don't understand. Many are physicists and engineers.

You continue to reject a basic concept of statistics. In fact, we can use different measures of central tendency. Indeed, you keep confusing measures of central tendency with the idea of "expected value." But, This is understandable if your main experience with Stats is through sampling.

So that there is no mistake. I have scanned page 85 or Triola. This is not a Wikipedia article. This is a widely used, heavy vetted text on Elementary Statistics.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3002/2946286567_a3b1fe2fb2_b.jpg

skyz

10-16-2008, 01:56 PM

You don't insult me. You just don't understand basic text-book concepts of mathematics. We all have to agree on definitions or there's no point in discussing anything. Mathematics is not about personal feelings or experience. It's about agreed definitions.

This is not difficult stuff. You've been working so close in your own world that you've forgotten your first lessons.

We all agree that an average is a measure of the central tendency of a set of data. Computing an average has everything to do with set of data and nothing to do with what it might be predicting. An average is a value derived in some fashion from a sequence of numbers that somehow quantifies the central tendency of the sequence. Any quantifier of central tendency can be considered an average.

For example, students are given an average grade in the from of a GPA .This is not a straight arithmetic mean. But, it is still considered an average.

My only assertion, the one that you're having such trouble swallowing, is that the measure of central tendency that most people associate with the idea of an average is the arithmetic mean. This assertion is backed up by the Wikipedia article that you brought in and by a very popular Elementary Stats text by Triola.

Honestly, I was only having a little fun with TokenUser about the fact that his jokes assumed average was the 50% percentile when that wasn't the assumption that most people make. An, then I cooked up an example.

Your mistake was jumping into a conversation between long-time friends without realizing I was being over-the-top facetious.

You claim to use "cutting" edge Probability and Statistics in your work. But, a lot of people use Math that they don't understand. Many are physicists and engineers.

You continue to reject a basic concept of statistics. In fact, we can use different measures of central tendency. Indeed, you keep confusing measures of central tendency with the idea of "expected value." But, This is understandable if your main experience with Stats is through sampling.

So that there is no mistake. I have scanned page 85 or Triola. This is not a Wikipedia article. This is a widely used, heavy vetted text on Elementary Statistics.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3002/2946286567_a3b1fe2fb2_b.jpg

you know i read this wonderful book about erdos

and brilliant mathematician that he was he preferred simple arithmetic to higher math (or maths for the brits)

anyway i got this part already can we move on to something else

truth tables ?

functions ?

skyz

10-16-2008, 02:44 PM

3. You are being a condescending ass who can't let go of an argument that they have lost.

whatever his cough cambridge cough phd is in (big mystery) there must not be much demand in his field

or he would have better things to do than argue fifth grade math (maths)

bigshotprof

10-16-2008, 04:21 PM

Do any of the other 11 Phatlips count?

There should only be ten, according to the all-the-universe-is-one crowd on late night radio, religions organize around the number 11.

bigshotprof

10-16-2008, 04:23 PM

I don't think this discussion relies on academic credentials or people's backgrounds. It's sufficiently fact-based that anyone should be able to make their arguments without recourse to saying things like "I have a PhD, therefore I know what I'm talking about".

I agree with our Bayesian Brother on this one. I am living proof that any idiot can get a Ph.D.

tokenuser

10-16-2008, 04:28 PM

There should only be ten, according to the all-the-universe-is-one crowd on late night radio, religions organize around the number 11.I thought it was thirteen?

12 zodiac suns, plus the sun.
Jesus and the 12 apostles.
13 witches in a coven.
13 cards in a suit.
13 months in a lunar calendar.

masherscf

10-16-2008, 04:28 PM

I agree with our Bayesian Brother on this one. I am living proof that any idiot can get a Ph.D.

I never claimed not to be an idiot. I do get wrangled into pointless online arguments.

bigshotprof

10-16-2008, 04:33 PM

I thought it was thirteen?

12 zodiac suns, plus the sun.
Jesus and the 12 apostles.
13 witches in a coven.
13 cards in a suit.
13 months in a lunar calendar.

I have no idea; I was just listening to something called Coast-to-Coast with George Norry, and this "scientist" was talking about GOD (Guiding, Organizing, Design) and this dude called in and explained why 11 was the real number, not 12 (there are for instance 11 commandments???).

I just figured I would mix some pseudo-science in with the squushy math.

remarkable

10-16-2008, 05:50 PM

whatever his cough cambridge cough phd is in (big mystery) there must not be much demand in his field

or he would have better things to do than argue fifth grade math (maths)

LMAO! Good point! What, though, I wonder, does it say when I have a million better things to do, that I still do that? Displacement activities are funny things...

Now, I really must ask for those hours of my life back. Who around here would I see about something like that?

comhcinc

10-16-2008, 05:55 PM

LMAO! Good point! What, though, I wonder, does it say when I have a million better things to do, that I still do that?

this is multi choice:

is the answer:

A: you are lying about your PhD

B: you are acting like a dick, who can't admit you are wrong

C: Grover Cleveland

D: answers A and B

skyz

10-16-2008, 05:57 PM

I agree with our Bayesian Brother on this one. I am living proof that any idiot can get a Ph.D.

or you can be a real idiot and have 250 college credits with a high gpa and no masters or phd

but i do know a lot of stuff about a lot of things

i just wasn't thinking vertically

my brilliant math prof dr rameua and i were having a discussion on the interconnectiveity of math and music theory

me: 'phythgoras was a mathematician right ?' 'yes'

'phythgoras was a musician right ?' 'yes'

'pythagoras was a philosopher right ?' 'i don't know'

i was stunned but that is what a vertical education often results in (ending with a preposition as authorized by token)

none of my english professors knew that mark twain wrote a book about joan of arc and considered it his best work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Recollections_of_Joan_of_Arc)(all had phds in english)

another two phded english and speech professors had never heard of the little prince (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince) neither had anyone in the class

it was about this time i decided i had enough formal education

esophagus

10-16-2008, 05:59 PM

I think you guys could all stand to be a little less rude to this guy. Whether he is wrong or not, he is just debating. No need to call him a dick just because you trust him less than Masher.

skyz

10-16-2008, 06:16 PM

LMAO! Good point! What, though, I wonder, does it say when I have a million better things to do, that I still do that? Displacement activities are funny things...

Now, I really must ask for those hours of my life back. Who around here would I see about something like that?

around here on the internet means anywhere essentially

you could start here (http://www.ouls.ox.ac.uk/bodley)

and delve into this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics)

or you could waste time here (http://www.ted.com/)

or read proust (http://www.authorama.com/remembrance-of-things-past-1.html)

:)

esophagus

10-16-2008, 06:19 PM

or you can be a real idiot and have 250 college credits with a high gpa and no masters or phd

but i do know a lot of stuff about a lot of things

i just wasn't thinking vertically

my brilliant math prof dr rameua and i were having a discussion on the interconnectiveity of math and music theory

me: 'phythgoras was a mathematician right ?' 'yes'

'phythgoras was a musician right ?' 'yes'

'pythagoras was a philosopher right ?' 'i don't know'

i was stunned but that is what a vertical education often results in (ending with a preposition as authorized by token)

none of my english professors knew that mark twain wrote a book about joan of arc and considered it his best work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Recollections_of_Joan_of_Arc)(all had phds in english)

another two phded english and speech professors had never heard of the little prince (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince) neither had anyone in the class

it was about this time i decided i had enough formal education around here on the internet means anywhere essentially

you could start here (http://www.ouls.ox.ac.uk/bodley)

and delve into this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics)

or you could waste time here (http://www.ted.com/)

or read proust (http://www.authorama.com/remembrance-of-things-past-1.html)

:).....You ever read a post written by someone whom is trying to sound smart and intellectual? It sounds a lot like that.

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 06:23 PM

around here on the internet means anywhere essentially

you could start here (http://www.ouls.ox.ac.uk/bodley)

and delve into this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics)

or you could waste time here (http://www.ted.com/)

or read proust (http://www.authorama.com/remembrance-of-things-past-1.html)

:)

Or you could go to

...oh wait, I probably shouldn't post that link here.

;)

haha

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 06:24 PM

.....

Skyz posts sounds smart because she is smart. :)

skyz

10-16-2008, 06:30 PM

.....

would i fit in better if i talked about my sex life my health problems how much i hate.....

it happens to be a fact eso that almost all i've ever done in life is go to school so i don't have much else to talk about

the things i write about are the things i think about and you can bet that one thing i never ever think about is 'how can i impress be popular on rev3 or even the internet as a whole'

now what was that reason again why you didn't start school this semester and were delayed till the upcoming semester

skyz

10-16-2008, 06:36 PM

Skyz posts sounds smart because she is smart. :)

thank you darling :)

and for the general group:

i might do better if i played stupid like paris but i have too much of a sense of dignity to do that

this is the 21st century women get to be smart even smarter than

live with it

you could learn to like it ;)

esophagus

10-16-2008, 06:37 PM

would i fit in better if i talked about my sex life my health problems how much i hate.....

it happens to be a fact eso that almost all i've ever done in life is go to school so i don't have much else to talk about

the things i write about are the things i think about and you can bet that one thing i never ever think about is 'how can i impress be popular on rev3 or even the internet as a whole'

now what was that reason again why you didn't start school this semester and were delayed till the upcoming semesterI did start school this semester.

And I wasn't pointing out what you did wrong, I'm just saying that you are talking about education for no reason. This guy mentioned it because he was asked. Why is he a dick?

Calm down.

Edit: And the reason I was going to go late was because of a lost transcript. Not sure what you are trying to prove.

remarkable

10-16-2008, 06:49 PM

i might do better if i played stupid like paris

Actually, if you watch the videos, you'll see that Paris likes to play dead, more than she does stupid. Interesting technique. But I digress, and I would *never* want to do that...

BTW Eso, thanks for the thought! Much appreciated! Lots of these guys could use some work on their facile ad hominem attack technique though - so, let 'em have at it, I say ;-)

comhcinc

10-16-2008, 06:51 PM

man the bs is getting thick in here.

tokenuser

10-16-2008, 06:59 PM

I'm black and I'm proud ...

OxWLrO2Fbsw

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 07:09 PM

I'm black and I'm proud ...

OxWLrO2Fbsw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq-EdsgeO1A

rabidbadger

10-16-2008, 08:16 PM

masherscf

10-16-2008, 08:28 PM

all jokes aside, they are getting desperate, and sickening. (http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_buck16.3d67d4a.html) This from an OFFICIAL GOP group.

http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2008/10-16/racist16_400.jpg

It's revolting. But, the truth comes out. People upload ass sorts of obscenity to the internet. That fact that this wasn't deleted speaks volumes.

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 08:33 PM

all jokes aside, they are getting desperate, and sickening. (http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_buck16.3d67d4a.html) This from an OFFICIAL GOP group.

http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2008/10-16/racist16_400.jpg

You know what pisses me off? How McCain tried to play it off as if HE was the victim of negative politics last night. Despicable. I was literally yelling at the TV when he was saying that.

rabidbadger

10-16-2008, 08:36 PM

It's revolting. But, the truth comes out. People upload ass sorts of obscenity to the internet. That fact that this wasn't deleted speaks volumes.

It was printed and snail mailed as an official GOP pamphlet.

masherscf

10-16-2008, 08:39 PM

It was printed and snail mailed as an official GOP pamphlet.

That's difficult to understand. The thing is dripping with negative racial imagery. Imagine the conservative uproar if the 'crats printed swastikas with McCain's picture or some such comparable idiocy.

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 08:42 PM

That's difficult to understand. The thing is dripping with negative racial imagery. Imagine the conservative uproar if the 'crats printed swastikas with McCain's picture or some such comparable idiocy.

Ok, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

This WAS indeed distributed to voters by the GOP? That doesn't mean a few racists Republicans but the actual GOP? Is there any proof of this?

The reason I ask is I'd love to use it as a future argument but want to make sure I have my facts straight.

masherscf

10-16-2008, 08:47 PM

Ok, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

This WAS indeed distributed to voters by the GOP? That doesn't mean a few racists Republicans but the actual GOP? Is there any proof of this?

The reason I ask is I'd love to use it as a future argument but want to make sure I have my facts straight.

The trouble is, there isn't ONE African American even close enough to their chain of production to raise a red flag as say, "this might be just a little across the line"

If this is what makes it into official publications, what the heck are they saying to each other in their private smoke-filled rooms.

Not only have I lost respect for John McCain for not putting his foot down about this, I'm sorry I ever respected him.

If he approved this, he's a racist jerk. If he didn't approve this, and it was published anyway, he's got the leadership capability of a gnat.

rabidbadger

10-16-2008, 08:48 PM

Yeah, read my link.

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 08:54 PM

Yeah, read my link.

The article mentions it was published by "an Inland Republican women's group". That doesn't signify anything official. I can make a Democratic mens group right now if I want without notifying any officials. Get what I'm saying?

masherscf

10-16-2008, 08:54 PM

Yeah, read my link.

Putting Obama's face on a food-stamp is appropriate political satire. It's the KFC, the ribs and the kool-aid... that's just uncalled for.

Why not put on big-macs, Budweiser and NASCAR?

Don't poor country white-trash use food-stamps too?

phatlip12

10-16-2008, 08:56 PM

Putting Obama's face on a food-stamp is appropriate political satire. It's the KFC, the ribs and the kool-aid... that's just uncalled for.

Why not put on big-macs, Budweiser and NASCAR?

Don't poor country white-trash use food-stamps too?

Actually, I think his face on a food-stamp is racist too with so many people suggesting food stamps is a "black thing".

tokenuser

10-16-2008, 08:57 PM

As I said above ... I'm black and I'm proud (actually wipe away the coal dust of my wlesh heritage, and I am as black as the guys in The Committments).

... And I like Fried Chicken. Mama Dips Fired Chicken is awesome ... but for true artery clogging goodnes, Roscoes Chicken and Waffles in Pasadena takes the cake.
... And I like ribs. Smoked. (and "Q" ... smoke low and slow, pulled, not chopped, and served with vinegar based bbq sauce).
... And I like watermelon. Is there nothing better on a summer's day (besies an ice cold beer) than sitting on the back porch with a slice of nice cold watermelon, seeing who can spit the pips the furthest.

Can't say I'm a fan of Kool-Aid, but I did grow up drinking Cottee's Cordials, which I guess is similar, except it comes as a syrup instead of a powder.

Never been on food stamps, but if it means cheap fried chiken, ribs, and watermelon ... I'm all for it.

masherscf

10-16-2008, 08:59 PM

Actually, I think his face on a food-stamp is racist too with so many people suggesting food stamps is a "black thing".

Well, you can't make Obama white in order to put him on a food stamp. That would just be stupid. I think that part is okay. It's no more inappropriate than these silly jib-jab videos making him do a song-and-dance. If you recall, African Americans are also known for song and dance.

The rest of the stuff is just really, really bad.

bigshotprof

10-16-2008, 09:32 PM

People upload ass sorts of obscenity to the internet.

Best unintentional critique ever!!

masherscf

10-16-2008, 09:37 PM

Best unintentional critique ever!!

Sometimes, my fingers are rebellious.

rabidbadger

10-16-2008, 10:57 PM

Sometimes, my fingers are rebellious.

Shouldn't that be "rebessioul?" :D

skyz

10-16-2008, 11:38 PM

Don't poor country white-trash use food-stamps too?

lots of cuban americans use them not all some cuban americans have become multi millionaires this is not a stereotype

but i see teen age girls with babies and the grandmothers all drive up to publix and buy all kinds of stuff with food stamps only they use a credit card like or debit card whatever not actual fake money like the obama doctored ones in this thread

tokenuser

10-16-2008, 11:51 PM

Thats how its done now ... helps remove some of the stigma, and it can be administered ("topped up") remotely.

masherscf

10-16-2008, 11:58 PM

Thats how its done now ... helps remove some of the stigma, and it can be administered ("topped up") remotely.

I also makes it harder for illegal trading in Food Stamps. People would trade the stamps for pennies on the dollars in order to buy drugs or beer.

comhcinc

10-17-2008, 12:07 AM

lots of cuban americans use them not all some cuban americans have become multi millionaires this is not a stereotype

I have heard about that.

http://fracturado.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/scarface.jpg

bigshotprof

10-17-2008, 01:35 AM

Don't poor country white-trash use food-stamps too?

Fact is that food stamps supplement the income of lots of people including at one recent junction about ten percent of non-officer military families.

masherscf

10-17-2008, 01:42 AM

Fact is that food stamps supplement the income of lots of people including at one recent junction about ten percent of non-officer military families.

Hey, "Support our Troops" for real.

skyz

10-17-2008, 02:29 AM

Fact is that food stamps supplement the income of lots of people including at one recent junction about ten percent of non-officer military families.

that is shameful it really is

and very poor defense strategy

how can a soldier focus on his job when he is worried about his kids going hungry

phatlip12

10-17-2008, 03:47 AM

Don't poor country white-trash use food-stamps too?

When I was still working at the restaurant I had a lady ask me how much our jumbo crabs were. They were $65 or $70 a DOZEN at the time. She then asked if she could get a dozen and pay for them with food stamps.

Unbelievable. Here I am, working my ass off not able to by the crabs myself. Yet, this lady want's to abuse the system and have myself and others pay for her high class meal.

Don't get me wrong. We absolutely NEED programs such as this. But people that take advantage of them are despicable, low life human beings in my opinion.

EDIT

I just remembered something else. One time a homeless man came in and asked if he could sell us his food stamps so he had cash because he wanted to use the money to buy booze.

tokenuser

10-17-2008, 04:05 AM

I just remembered something else. One time a homeless man came in and asked if he could sell us his food stamps so he had cash because he wanted to use the money to buy booze.Thats why they moved to a debit card system.

I live in an odd area. One of the most expensive communities in the area is next door (having a golf course over your backfence apparently adds $800K to your property). Closer to town again from them is a trailer park. Across the street from them is a retirement community - with both condo and assisted living spaces. You have my development - middle upper demographic, and two others like it nearby.

Slap bang in the middle of all this is a low key strip mall consisting of a supermarket, subway, liquor store, estate agent, italian restaurant, vet, chinese takeout. Nothing fancy ... all low key.

Point is, that supermarket gets a strange mix in it. Pensioners, low income residents from the trailer park (and further out of town), wealthier patrons who need something between trips to Whole Foods.

Frustrates me being behind someone who is paying with food stamps (debit card), and the balance with a check (great for delaying payments), a bajillion coupons (nothing wrong with coupons in the current climate) ... and then starts taking items out of the shopping bags so they can afford the booze (wine/beer) and cigarettes. Yeah, pushing the cart out of the store with the two screaming kids, and you removed the fruit and bought the booze. How about keeping the fruit, and getting rid of the 20 microwave dinners, and getting some fresh vegies and meat. You might even be able to afford of nicer bottle of rot gut.

Then again, if I had kids screaming that much, I'd be self medicating as well.

(Sorry - shitty trip to supermarket this afternoon).

bigshotprof

10-17-2008, 10:57 AM

When I was still working at the restaurant I had a lady ask me how much our jumbo crabs were. They were $65 or $70 a DOZEN at the time. She then asked if she could get a dozen and pay for them with food stamps.

Unbelievable. Here I am, working my ass off not able to by the crabs myself. Yet, this lady want's to abuse the system and have myself and others pay for her high class meal.

Don't get me wrong. We absolutely NEED programs such as this. But people that take advantage of them are despicable, low life human beings in my opinion.

EDIT

I just remembered something else. One time a homeless man came in and asked if he could sell us his food stamps so he had cash because he wanted to use the money to buy booze.

First, these are anecdotal evidence and do not accurately portray the value of the system s a whole. Second, you should have scratched your crotch an said "I got mine for free."

tokenuser

10-17-2008, 11:14 AM

First, these are anecdotal evidence and do not accurately portray the value of the system s a whole. Second, you should have scratched your crotch an said "I got mine for free."As a left wing hippie, I believe in social programs - and am a huge propontent of UHC (and my wife is working on unified medical record keeping projects - but that is another story).

Anecdotes alway provide a skewed view of the world.

I believe that the switch to debit card style food stamps was great, BUT I wish that along with handouts for low income families there was more education on basic life skills and teaching people how to make what they have go further.

Many, many people already do this. My wifes grandparents lived frugally in a small country town - life lessons they learnt during the great depression to stretch out their pensions. My grandmother was in a little better financial position thanks to my Dad managing her (and my grandfathers) retirement accounts. But that is a different generation. A generation that did not live on credit. A generation that saved petrol rations so they could go away on a honeymoon during WWII.

But, like most things in life, its always the extremes that stick out. "I read Barack is an arab", "Kill him!", "Terrorist!!".

They are the ones that get captured as an anecdote.

masherscf

10-17-2008, 01:03 PM

Then again, if I had kids screaming that much, I'd be self medicating as well.

(Sorry - shitty trip to supermarket this afternoon).

We've begun doing our grocery trips while the kids are in school.

Here in New York, they have a WIC program that uses vouchers to buy milk, juice, cereal. In my home state of Vermont, the WIC program will contract with the local dairy to actually deliver these items to your door in an effort to prevent abuse.

During the economic depression that was the Reagan years, the Department of Agriculture use to hand out free cheese. I wonder when that's gonna start up again. I don't understand how these supply-siders get people to buy into their theories. The bulk of the worst finical times over the last thirty-years have been under supply-side presidents. Yet, conservatives continue to blame high taxes and regulation for all economic whoas.

comhcinc

10-17-2008, 01:22 PM

. How about keeping the fruit, and getting rid of the 20 microwave dinners, and getting some fresh veggies and meat. You might even be able to afford of nicer bottle of rot gut.

do the math,(oh shit math again!) it's cheaper to get processed foods than it is to get fresh stuff.

i was on food stamps as a child for a while and i always did the shopping with my father (often times i did the shopping by myself, because my father was too sick, at a store owned by a friend. it could be very embarrassing) so i understand that most of the time the only way to stretch the money is to buy the crappy food. i lived off of chili dogs and ramen.

now i agree that people's money could be better spent on something other than cigs and cheap booze, i don't agree that people on public assistants should be held to any higher standard than anyone else. hell for some people a little boone's farm or some newports are the only form of relief they have.

if we really want to be the greatest nation ever we need to do more. people need help getting out of at of the gutter and if you somehow don't believe that then you truly are full of shit. (that wasn't directed at you token)

masherscf

10-17-2008, 02:52 PM

do the math,(oh shit math again!) it's cheaper to get processed foods than it is to get fresh stuff.

i was on food stamps as a child for a while and i always did the shopping with my father (often times i did the shopping by myself, because my father was too sick, at a store owned by a friend. it could be very embarrassing) so i understand that most of the time the only way to stretch the money is to buy the crappy food. i lived off of chili dogs and ramen.

now i agree that people's money could be better spent on something other than cigs and cheap booze, i don't agree that people on public assistants should be held to any higher standard than anyone else. hell for some people a little boone's farm or some newports are the only form of relief they have.

if we really want to be the greatest nation ever we need to do more. people need help getting out of at of the gutter and if you somehow don't believe that then you truly are full of shit. (that wasn't directed at you token)

I think that the issue is more important than just giving people a hand. The matter is entirely practical and generational. Better nourished children become healthier adults who can be more productive and contribute to the health care system and not be a drain on it.

It often amuses me when people who oppose abortion, also oppose things like nutrition, health care and prenatal care for these children. Their objections to abortion have nothing to do with right-to-life. Anyone who supports the death penalty lost that argument. These have to do with legislated morality. The idea that, you're in poverty with sick multiple children in the emergency room because you acted somehow immorally and this situation is your punishment for that behavior.

The only escape for your suffering should be faith in Jesus. It's been proven that just thinking of Jesus has a profound placebo effect on the devout. Marx was right about religion being a narcotic for some. And, they hate sex, drugs, booze and other general forms of social release because they hate competition.

It's a crock. Anyone who thinks that bad things only happen to bad people totally missed the book of Job. Tagging someone for immoral behavior is only a way of justifying blatant selfishness.

phatlip12

10-17-2008, 03:47 PM

First, these are anecdotal evidence and do not accurately portray the value of the system s a whole."

I'm not saying it does. I was just telling a story and saying how I think people that take advantage of the system are despicable.

comhcinc

10-17-2008, 03:52 PM

I'm not saying it does. I was just telling a story and saying how I think people that take advantage of the system are despicable.
question did the women recieve the crabs?

phatlip12

10-17-2008, 03:54 PM

question did the women recieve the crabs?

Nope. We didn't accept the food stamps.

comhcinc

10-17-2008, 04:21 PM

Nope. We didn't accept the food stamps.
i know food stamps can not be used to buy "prepared food"

frankly this is the worst "abuse of the system" story i have ever heard, but it does demonstrate one of points that really bothers me.

the idea that people on public assistant should not be allow to enjoy nice things every now and then.

the lady want 12 crabs. do you know why? i don't know but i could think of a couple of reasons.

she wanted to celebrate something such as a birthday or wedding

she wanted to let a person experience crab before they died of some horrible disease.

her life sucked and she just wanted something nice.

i am not saying any of that happened. i don't know, my point is i get tired of see people so pissed off when people want, even for an instant, a little taste of something nice. get over it. really.

phatlip12

10-17-2008, 04:58 PM

i know food stamps can not be used to buy "prepared food"

frankly this is the worst "abuse of the system" story i have ever heard, but it does demonstrate one of points that really bothers me.

the idea that people on public assistant should not be allow to enjoy nice things every now and then.

the lady want 12 crabs. do you know why? i don't know but i could think of a couple of reasons.

she wanted to celebrate something such as a birthday or wedding

she wanted to let a person experience crab before they died of some horrible disease.

her life sucked and she just wanted something nice.

i am not saying any of that happened. i don't know, my point is i get tired of see people so pissed off when people want, even for an instant, a little taste of something nice. get over it. really.

Comhcinc, I too would love to enjoy a dozen jumbo crabs every now and then. I can't afford it. I work and receive no government assistance yet I myself can't get the crabs. Why should she be allowed to get them if she's using our money to purchase them? If thats the case I think the government shouldn't collect taxes from a few of our paychecks throughout the year so I too can use that money to buy crabs.

If you're receiving help you use it to get only what you need. It's a bad idea for anyone to live beyond their means. $70 on crabs while on food stamps is the very definition of that. That $70 could been used better. If you find it difficult to feed yourself don't blow that money on 12 crabs. Use it to stock up on food.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying programs such as this shouldn't exist. What I'm saying is people that take advantage of it in this manner only hurt those who truly need the help. If you can afford to blow $70 worth of food stamps on 12 crabs I don't believe you truly need help. That's $70 extra which could have been given to someone who truly needs it.

skyz

10-17-2008, 05:09 PM

if we really want to be the greatest nation ever we need to do more. people need help getting out of at of the gutter and if you somehow don't believe that then you truly are full of shit. (that wasn't directed at you token)

strongly agree

i think almost anyone has the ability to be somewhat productive even if the are limited and could not hold down a full time job and there is satisfaction in being able to do something well no matter how simple and mundane

and with the internet there are all kinds of opportunities to make some $

if i wanted to i could teach buddhist philosophy online (but i am too humble in the face of the profound nature of this philosophy to do that) but i know those with less understanding that do feel qualified to teach at 25 $ an hour

people teach yoga baking cakes share and profit from all kin ds of knowledge and craft and art products etc and so on and so forth

in truly impoverished countries where there is no welfare so the poor are really desperate the system of micro loans has had outstanding success

if some rural woman just needs a donkey to get her fresh produce to market then she gets one and now she can earn $ or whatever and other people get fresh produce and repay the loan so someone else can use it

and she may end up hiring someone to help her grow more and buy another donkey and thus provide employment

and most of the money does get paid back

how this would be implemented in the usa i don't know but there has to be something bridging the gap between welfare and full time job outside the home

smart kids in poor households if they have a computer and internet access could educate themselves even if their parents are busy drinking smoking and watching jerry springer

the one truly great equalizer is that the library is free to everyone equally the same

giving anyone an opportunity to learn if they really want to

there should be m ore such programs

and those mentally qualified and willing to put forth the effort should have access to higher education

if it hadn't have been made easy for me i wouldn't have gotten a college education if i had to hold down a job and go to school i wouldn't have because i'm too lazy but i was willing even eager to be mentally productive if that was all that was required of me

i was lucky and i took advantage of the good fortune betowed on me in the right sense of taking advantage

i think other people should have the same opportunity

masherscf

10-17-2008, 05:10 PM

I'm confused by you Phatty. Are you saying that you are the standard for what people should be entitled to.

The classism you display in your opinion is pretty blatant. You've determined that this person does not deserve something. Granted, getting expensive crabs with her food stamps is gratuitously irresponsible. But, your argument is based on the sense that this person doesn't deserve something they were trying to get. You have no idea how the person arrived in their particular straights. You've assumed the person is undeserving just because they were trying to use food stamps. That just disappoints me.

Don't you think that everyone deserves yummy, yummy crabs, regardless of their ability to pay cash?

Food stamps were not originally looked upon as a hand-out for the poor. They were looked upon as a legitimate way to promote commerce. Grocers who accept food stamps would see in increase in their markets. And, they can redeem the coupons for cash. People get fed, merchants get paid...win/win...right? That is, I'm sure your boss would have been delighted for the woman to use her food-stamps to buy crabs. Business is business.

phatlip12

10-17-2008, 05:24 PM

comhcinc

10-17-2008, 05:24 PM

Comhcinc, I too would love to enjoy a dozen jumbo crabs every now and then. I can't afford it. I work and receive no government assistance yet I myself can't get the crabs. Why should she be allowed to get them if she's using our money to purchase them? If thats the case I think the government shouldn't collect taxes from a few of our paychecks throughout the year so I too can use that money to buy crabs. i bet you could afford it if you saved up for it, maybe not buy that cool new video game this week or quite spending all that money on internet porn and butter ( i really don't know what you do and i am just trying keep some levity here)
why should she be allowed to buy them? because we don't believe in class in the country. something like food (even the rare jumbo crab) should not be denied it because they "don't deserve it"

as for you paycheck, i bet if you are(or were) making so little money you were(are) getting a large refund at the end of the year. so that takes care of that

If you're receiving help you use it to get only what you need. It's a bad idea for anyone to live beyond their means. $70 on crabs while on food stamps is the very definition of that. That $70 could been used better. If you find it difficult to feed yourself don't blow that money on 12 crabs. Use it to stock up on food.
i agree to a point. my problem is your assumptions such as.....

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying programs such as this shouldn't exist. What I'm saying is people that take advantage of it in this manner only hurt those who truly need the help. If you can afford to blow $70 worth of food stamps on 12 crabs I don't believe you truly need help.
again do you know why she wanted the crabs? who said she could afford to "blow" the money. maybe she couldn't maybe she knew she would do without latter that month but felt that it was worth it. who are you to judge?

phatlip12

10-17-2008, 05:36 PM

comhcinc

10-17-2008, 05:44 PM

Again, she didn't need the crabs. If she can afford to use the money on something she doesn't need she doesn't need the help. That money should go to those who truly need it. Otherwise she's hurting those in need of help- that money could have gone to them.

how do you know she didn't need the crabs? again for example what if her daughter was getting married and she wanted the crabs to celebrate. she knew she would run out of food by the end of the month but she didn't care. she just wanted to do something nice.

a life without some happiness is no life at all.

why do you not hold yourself to the same standard that you hold this woman? don't your parents support you?

masherscf

10-17-2008, 05:50 PM

phatlip12

10-17-2008, 05:51 PM

comhcinc

10-17-2008, 05:53 PM

The funny thing is, if the woman had been successful in her crab purchase, a greater fraction of Phatty's paycheck would have been contributed by the food stamps than the fraction of his paycheck that contributed to those food stamps. Phatty's prejudice against people with food stamps has him poo-pooing what could have been a lucitive transaction for his employer.
phatty foodstamp story is alot like ACORN, he is making a big deal about it but nothing happened. the woman didn't get the crabs not because phatty put his foot down but because those are the rules.

he is upset over nothing.

remarkable

10-17-2008, 05:59 PM

masherscf

10-17-2008, 06:00 PM

Please don't call me prejudice.

This predisposition, this bias, what else would you like me to call it? Surely you don't target everyone that patronizes the Crab-Shack with your scrutiny.

comhcinc

10-17-2008, 06:11 PM

This predisposition, this bias, what else would you like me to call it? Surely you don't target everyone that patronizes the Crab-Shack with your scrutiny.

http://www.geocities.com/area51/Dimension/3772/soupnazi.jpg
NO CRAB FOR YOU!

phatlip12

10-17-2008, 06:47 PM

You guys do realize I had nothing to do with not selling the crabs right? Prepared food cant be purchased with food stamps. I have nothing against the food stamp program. I just consider buying sometging such as a dozen crabs for so much as abusing the system. Why not buy the small ones for cheaper? That way you can still have fun without wasting money.

rabidbadger

10-17-2008, 08:23 PM

Gotta say. This thread has gone on a bunch of tangets, but most are interesting, and I'm in a quandry about crablady. I agree/disagree with everyone on this one (despite the prepared food law, which I think is sensible. But just thinking about the concepts pro and con is a good example of what food stamps are really for...).

PS. I been on food stamps twice, Once as a kid when family had major issues and disasters, And once as a young adult after losing a job in a shitty economy.

skyz

10-17-2008, 10:07 PM

Why does $70 for 12 crabs have to be expensive? Doesn't it depend how many meals she can make out of them? She could easily make use of the crabs in a way that that $70 (less then $6 per crab) was pretty good value for money.

Lots of people think processed, pre-packaged food, crappy food is cheaper than buying fresh ingredients. It's not. It's just that the food industry is more efficient than the errr... "average" person in terms of using ingredients (and also the food industry uses ingredients that people wouldn't want to eat if they knew what they were).

So with the crabs, the woman might have used some of the meat to make a fresh crab salad; some of the meat in a sauce with some linguine; and some of the meat in a crab risotto; and the crab shells to make a crab stock which formed the base of crab soup; and to flavor a vegetable stew.

If each crab goes to form an important ingredient in five meals, suddenly, it doesn't seem so expensive.

exactly

she might be one of the many people trying to avoid red meat and she wanted fresh food

every week i go to the farmer's market and spend about 40 on produce just for me one person

at the farmer's market of course you pay cash not even credit or debit

but the produce is fresh lots of it local and cheaper than publix

pineapples were 3.50 each in publix they were 5 +

so i save money am healthier need less medical care

why shouldn't someone on food stamps have the same benefit

why can't they feed their kids fresh food

she could have gotten crabs in many forms at the supermarket but they would not be as fresh therefore not as nutritious

that is the main point of food: nutrition

if it is luxurious and enjoyable is all to the good but the main reason to eat is to provide nutrients

or as com suggested maybe it was a special occasion and she wanted something nice as a special treat maybe for someone she loved not even for herself a birthday a cross country visit of a rarely seen friend or relation

are welfare recipients only entitled to the cheap paper towels and toilet paper

guytheninja

10-17-2008, 10:08 PM

Gotta say. This thread has gone on a bunch of tangets, but most are interesting, and I'm in a quandry about crablady. I agree/disagree with everyone on this one (despite the prepared food law, which I think is sensible. But just thinking about the concepts pro and con is a good example of what food stamps are really for...).

Indeed...
I'm still trying to figure out how we went from ....

black people voting for Obama because he is black to ---> Phatlip and crabs.

I would love to see a chart of how we got from here to there. :D

skyz

10-17-2008, 10:15 PM

Please don't call me prejudice.

sweetie don't feel abused

we all have unconscious prejudices no exceptions

some people look at you because you are young as not capable of starting a zillion dollar biz

but people your age have done just that

you would not believe the prejudice i experience being a girl being blonde and in miami not hispanic

i have a prejudice for education i could not imagine marrying someone without a college education

yet a genius artist of some kind could have no college and be the better man

eveyone has unconscious prejudices everyone it is unavoidable

masherscf

10-17-2008, 10:26 PM

sweetie don't feel abused

we all have unconscious prejudices no exceptions

If this doesn't seem too weird a concept, I know that prejudiced is looked on a negative aspect. I actually didn't mean it to be so. My use of the adjective what entirely technical.

prejudice n. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

I know that Phatty is not a prejudiced person. I just couldn't think of a word that meant the same thing that fit situation better.

rabidbadger

10-17-2008, 10:35 PM

I know that Phatty is not a prejudiced person. I just couldn't think of a word that meant the same thing that fit situation better.

I'll make that word up, then. "prefluenced." allow/cancel? :D

masherscf

10-17-2008, 10:42 PM

I'll make that word up, then. "prefluenced." allow/cancel? :D

As a Mathematician, I shouldn't be averse to spinning some new terminology. However, I do despise euphemism. Although, in a polite society, diplomacy often requires the avoidance of a term strictly because parties might find it unsavory.

Make it so!

guytheninja

10-17-2008, 10:49 PM

I'm hopelessly prefluenced against rabid badgers...

not badgers per say, or rabid animals. Just rabid badgers.

rabidbadger

10-17-2008, 10:53 PM

guytheninja

10-17-2008, 11:04 PM

Let me use it in a sentence.

"I am not prejudiced against republicans, in fact I know several that can make their points well, but having been raised by commie hippies, I was prefluenced as a kid to oppose them, but have since learned better."

You hilariously ignored me again, and I used your new word as well. I was sure you would say some sort of humorous wise-crack -----> and cost the economy 10 dollars in the process --- with a tolerance of +- 20 dollars. This irrefutable evidence supports my new-found prejudice btw.

rabidbadger

10-17-2008, 11:36 PM

weird, your post musta been posted between the time I read masher's and the time I finished mine. While also trouble shooting an ancient ibook. My apologies. Hell, just get on aim and we can chat one on one.

guytheninja

10-17-2008, 11:49 PM

I was joking man. My humor box must be broken tonight. :D

yohey9

10-18-2008, 01:22 AM

I guess I should come back and check my postings after I make a new topic. Great...now I have to catch back up and see what everyone had to say. Most likely you all just got way off topic but we'll see. Seems to be the way you guys work around here ;)

yohey9

10-18-2008, 01:37 AM

They make up that Obama is "Arab" and "Muslim" because it's more acceptable in public to hate him for that. They also use the term "bloodlines," like they have some great pedigree.

Good point. This goes into that same notion of classifying him as an "other." In literature and global politics, it's called "othering." It's why we ignore global genocide, and starvation. We classify them as not like us so we don't care. Well it's the same as what these people and the Republicans are trying to do. They try and make Obama to look as "not like you" and therefore you cannot vote for him. A classless strategy.

yohey9

10-18-2008, 01:38 AM

http://www.geocities.com/area51/Dimension/3772/soupnazi.jpg
NO CRAB FOR YOU!

I met him. I spoke to him. I took a picture with him. I got him to sign his photograph. Yay me.

esophagus

10-18-2008, 01:38 AM

The actor or the real soup nazi?

masherscf

10-18-2008, 01:39 AM

Good point. This goes into that same notion of classifying him as an "other." In literature and global politics, it's called "othering." It's why we ignore global genocide, and starvation. We classify them as not like us so we don't care. Well it's the same as what these people and the Republicans are trying to do. They try and make Obama to look as "not like you" and therefore you cannot vote for him. A classless strategy.

You think too much. They use those words because objecting to Obama because he's "Black" would be obviously evil.

skyz

10-18-2008, 11:45 AM

You think too much. They use those words because objecting to Obama because he's "Black" would be obviously evil.

why do you object to people thinking 'too much' masher ?

it is a good thing to see beyond the obvious

and as far as obama being black and getting a lot of support from the african american community seeing him as one of their 'own' it is a bit disenguous at best

obama is not black in the sense that he was born as the result of slavery and that he or any of his family had to suffer under 'the white man's oppression'

his father was kenyan people in kenya are often black just like people in japan are often asian

his mother was white who married a foreign national who happened to be black

obama is not of mixed race because some member of his family got raped by a white master

he nor did any member of his family suffer any of the indignities and extremes of the civil rights movement

rita hayworth married (amongst others) the aga kan (Imam of the Nizārī Muslims ) and had a child with him

there was no outrage or racial slurs over that marriage or that child in fact it was celebrated

though obama's mother did not marry a prince her marrying a kenyan who is also black is more akin to that

obama grew up in hawaii where most people are hawaiian often of mixed race so his situation is in no way synonymous with the evils of slavery and the historical oppression certainly evil to the max that people identify with the term 'black'

his mother was from kansas the middle west not from the south

the one thing i can truly say i dislike about his obama is his presenting himself in the mold of MLK

MLK was not a man who aspired to a world stage who sought world acclaim he was a minister that got thrust into an ugly ugly situation and rose to greatness through the power of his authentic nature at great risk to himself and his family and 'brethren'

not through millions of dollars of tv ads and with secret service protection mlk's greatness took great corage obama is not courageous he is merely ambitous

ambition is not the equal of courage and to imply that it is is an insult to the intelligence of those who are being 'charmed' into thinking so

there is no legitimate comparison between obama and martin luther king and it annoys me big time that he purposely exploits people's ignorance

ignorance fostered by those who don't think enough

in fact he is counting on people not thinking too much just like burger king and mcdonald's are counting on people not thinking too much about the idea of how good for you following the lure of their advertisements is

both are succeeding but it is not to their credit

thinking is not a bad thing masher it is a good thing a bit torturous at first but in the end it gives reason to being human it empowers man to become wise

and wisdom is the crowning achievement of creation whether natural or designed by god

the real problem with politics is that people in general are all too willing to endow others with the power to do their thinking for them

ignorant people are easy to manipulate

ignorance is the result of not thinkng enough for yourself

thinking should never be discouraged

masherscf

10-18-2008, 12:39 PM

why do you object to people thinking 'too much' masher

That was just a little joke there. I'm in academia, I force people to think for a living.

skyz

10-18-2008, 02:25 PM

That was just a little joke there. I'm in academia, I force people to think for a living.

of course professor

and therefore you are in a position to tell us how difficult is that ?

how much force and how adeptly must it be used to do battle against the inertia of ignorace ?

;)

esophagus

10-18-2008, 06:42 PM

obama is not black in the sense that he was born as the result of slavery and that he or any of his family had to suffer under 'the white man's oppression'

his father was kenyan people in kenya are often black just like people in japan are often asian

his mother was white who married a foreign national who happened to be black

obama is not of mixed race because some member of his family got raped by a white master

he nor did any member of his family suffer any of the indignities and extremes of the civil rights movement

rita hayworth married (amongst others) the aga kan (Imam of the Nizārī Muslims ) and had a child with him

there was no outrage or racial slurs over that marriage or that child in fact it was celebrated

though obama's mother did not marry a prince her marrying a kenyan who is also black is more akin to that

obama grew up in hawaii where most people are hawaiian often of mixed race so his situation is in no way synonymous with the evils of slavery and the historical oppression certainly evil to the max that people identify with the term 'black'

his mother was from kansas the middle west not from the south

Obama is black, there is absolutely no way of denying it. And I don't think that the big reason (And I said big reason, it could be the reason of some) that black people are voting for him is the slave trade or the fact that he is mixed without the family being upset. It's more likely that he has gone through similar modern day persecutions and dealt with racism. It's more than likely that a big part of it is simply that having a black (even if it's only 50% and from Kenya, which I would think makes him MORE African American, not less) president would be a huge stride for racial equality.

I don't think that what they're doing is necessarily a good thing, but I don't think your argument there really holds any weight.

skyz

10-18-2008, 08:57 PM

esophagus

10-18-2008, 09:09 PM

Okay... Did anyone else find that strange? This is a discussion forum. What am I supposed to do if not discuss? Oh well. I know she doesn't like me, so that's cool. Crazy.

comhcinc

10-18-2008, 10:11 PM

eso you are on ignore

i am tired of you commenting on practically every post i make

i don't care what you think everything you say is essentially the same thing

you should be concentrating on you classes not on me because you are nowhere near as smart as i am if your were you would understand what i am saying and even i had to pay attention while in college in order to make the most of it

now i am asking you to stop or join the rev3 gossip group

i am sure rabid would love to share with you how wrong i am

ignore me please

i'm never going to take you off ignore and i am never going to respond to you

get a life !

you know you are on a discussion board, if you don't want people to discuss what you say then don't post it.

i understand the point you had to make. interestedly enough you feel such a need to prove how smart you are that you point is often lost. i didn't read what you had to say until esp cut it down a little to respond to you.

that said i disagree with your point and agree with esp. he seems smarter to me than you do. i, myself, am dumb as a rock.

throwing these little fits were you proclaim your genius and proclaim your intentions to ignore people who disagree with you doesn't appear very buddhist to me, but i am sure you can explain how it really is. i mean what would the buddha do right?

to be honest i would much rather read what esp has to say because it is always interesting and unique. on the other hand, your euphuisms are getting boring and predictable.

speed

10-18-2008, 10:27 PM

Okay... Did anyone else find that strange? This is a discussion forum. What am I supposed to do if not discuss? Oh well. I know she doesn't like me, so that's cool. Crazy.

Wrong time of the month to comment, apparently...

skyz

10-18-2008, 11:01 PM

Wrong time of the month to comment, apparently...

it is not that

it is that every time i post on any day every day morning noon and night the next post is his

no matter what i said he would oppose it

if i said obama was the perfect president possible he would have something to say contrary

other people sometimes comment on what i post

he always comments on what i post

i'm not in a relationship with him

i don't want him in my face breakfast lunch and dinner

i don't follow anyone and comment on everything they say

with me it's random

with him it's constant

check out my posts and count the number of times he is right behind me if you think i am delusional

i don't do twitter i don't want followers

if this were irl i'd have to get a restraining order

skyz

10-18-2008, 11:03 PM

you know you are on a discussion board, if you don't want people to discuss what you say then don't post it.

i understand the point you had to make. interestedly enough you feel such a need to prove how smart you are that you point is often lost. i didn't read what you had to say until esp cut it down a little to respond to you.

that said i disagree with your point and agree with esp. he seems smarter to me than you do. i, myself, am dumb as a rock.

throwing these little fits were you proclaim your genius and proclaim your intentions to ignore people who disagree with you doesn't appear very buddhist to me, but i am sure you can explain how it really is. i mean what would the buddha do right?

to be honest i would much rather read what esp has to say because it is always interesting and unique. on the other hand, your euphuisms are getting boring and predictable.

i am not in competition with eso

if you prefer to read his posts and ignore mine

works for me

esophagus

10-18-2008, 11:17 PM

it is that every time i post on any day every day morning noon and night the next post is hisNot to add to her point by responding, but I think I deserve a bit of a rebuttal. Look at any regular contributing member and you will find my posts soon after them. I have over 10,000 posts. I'm not stalking her, I'm probably just posting too much for my own good.
no matter what i said he would oppose it

if i said obama was the perfect president possible he would have something to say contraryI think we're all aware that the only thing Skyz ever has to say is that Obama is bad. As someone who disagrees with that, yes we do disagree with eachother quite often. That's because we have differing viewpoints, not because I'm contrary.throwing these little fits were you proclaim your genius and proclaim your intentions to ignore people who disagree with you doesn't appear very buddhist to me, but i am sure you can explain how it really is. i mean what would the buddha do right?For someone who calls themselves dumb as a rock, you seem to get it. The third step of the Buddhist eightfold path is samma vaca which essentially means don't condemn or criticize others. And one of the fundamental principles of sila, one of the Buddhist Three Trainings, is the principle of equality. Which would probably mean not telling us how smart she is.

Oh, and do me a favor. Anyone responding to this post, don't quote it. If she wants to see what I have to say she can take me off of ignore.