Bush doesn't support the $25 billion loan package to the Big 3

[gta_bmx]

Why would he support a $700 billion support package for failing financial institutions and not for the Big 3 US automakers? I'm not really for bailing out companies, but not bailing out the big 3 while bailing out financial entities is ludicrous. Just one more example of the Bush thought process, if you can call it "thought".

First of all, $25 billion is 1/28th of what he's giving to these financial institutions. And the Big 3 actually have infrastructure -- large factories, supply chains, and facilities. The auto industry is very important. It provides jobs to factory workers, support staff at the corporations, parts suppliers, dealership employees/salesmen, transportation sector to move the cars around, etc..

Whereas the financial sector just has offices and office plants and staplers and such, because all they really do is shuffle paper around and act as middlemen. And the financial sector KNEW that their house of cards would fail. They just wanted to soak up short-term profits and fat salaries before it did. Granted, taxpayers will own stock and interest in the portfolios of these financial co's like mortgages and properties.

You could also say that the Big 3 should have became leaner and meaner and did more to build products that Americans want to buy. But at least they had a big infrastructure they invested in. The financial sector just has to push a few buttons on computers to massively change the way they operate. And they should have done that sooner.

And as Americans, we should buy American cars. The build quality is much better than it was 7 or so years ago and is approaching or even with the level of the Japanese makes. Plus American cars are usually cheaper than the Japanese alternative, and the styling of American cars is better, IMHO. Look at a new Chrysler Town and Country or Dodge Caravan minivan (with a lifetime warranty) next to a Toyota Sienna and see how nice the Chrysler product is.

[comhcinc]

i agree with bush. the bailout of the financial institutes was to save the whole economy. all this would do is save ford, ford, gm and that other one. there is a much better option. it's called bankruptcy.

[comhcinc]

And as Americans, we should buy American cars. The build quality is much better than it was 7 or so years ago and is approaching or even with the level of the Japanese makes. Plus American cars are usually cheaper than the Japanese alternative, and the styling of American cars is better, IMHO. Look at a new Chrysler Town and Country or Dodge Caravan minivan (with a lifetime warranty) next to a Toyota Sienna and see how nice the Chrysler product is.

i want to address this separate. this is really dumb and uneducated thinking.

i am going to use my home state as an example of why this is so.

if i buy a toyota truck, it is made in america. the engine is made in my city. if i want to buy a kia it's made about hundred miles down the road. maybe i have a little more money and want a snazzy bmw suv. yep they are made about eighty miles down the road.

now my friends new chevy truck? it's made in mexico and canada.

all these car company are multinational cooperations. who cares what country they started in? they are make cars in this country (except maybe gm ford and the other one).

frankly i find this attitude a little racist.

[tokenuser]

Its all related.
People aren't buying new cars.
They cant get loans to buy new cars.
The current TARP plan (the $700B) is supposed to be for helping the financial crunch. Helping to loosen up consumer credit is supposed to be one of its goals. This is something that the treasury could readily do.

There is already $25B on the table for the auto industry for development of green cars, but a general $25B bailout under TARP is off the table according to Paulson - he said don't look to the treasury, talk to congress.

I think that is as it should be, but it needs to be acted upon. Apparently 1 in 10 jobs in the US is auto industry related. I'd dispute that (it was an auto industry report, and I suspect it was a loose definition of "related"), but still suspect its a huge number of people affected.

[comhcinc]

I think that is as it should be, but it needs to be acted upon. Apparently 1 in 10 jobs in the US is auto industry related. I'd dispute that (it was an auto industry report, and I suspect it was a loose definition of "related"), but still suspect its a huge number of people affected.

yeah i heard about that on NPR last night. the guy point out something about that. the gambling industry is doing bad too and there are alot more jobs attached to that.

why isn't anyone yelling about bailing out the casinos?

[tokenuser]

yeah i heard about that on NPR last night. the guy point out something about that. the gambling industry is doing bad too and there are alot more jobs attached to that.

why isn't anyone yelling about bailing out the casinos?Our annual user conference is in a different city (West Coast) each year. Next year its back in Vegas. Apparently we got a phenominal deal on the facilities because of the downturn.

[comhcinc]

cool i found the story.

President-elect Obama has expressed support for yet another bailout package for the U.S. auto industry.

Here's the case: Manufacturing is the backbone of the U.S. economy, and the Detroit automakers are the backbone of U.S. manufacturing.

There was a time when this argument was true -- back in the 1970s, when Chrysler extracted the first auto bailout from the U.S. government. Not any more.

Time was when General Motors alone ranked among the largest employers in the United States.

Today, UPS employs almost four times as many people as the two big U.S. companies, Ford and GM, combined. While the Big Two decline, Toyota USA, Nissan USA, BMW, KIA are all expanding -- and not asking for any bailout.

The Big Two remain important employers. Their troubles are felt up and down the manufacturing supply chain. But of course that is true for every industry.

Last week, the stock of Las Vegas Sands Corporation collapsed. Bankruptcy seems a real possibility. Indeed, the whole casino gambling industry in Nevada is facing the worst crisis in at least a generation, maybe ever. Casino gambling directly employs more people than the domestic automobile industry. Add in the supply chain for both industries, and casinos still employ almost half as many people as the automobile sector.

So what about a bailout for the casino industry? Ridiculous! Right? But why right?

Gambling is a vice, it's true. But automobiles emit greenhouse gases.

The answer is not to bail out both. It is to bail out neither.

We bailed out the banks, not to save the banks, but to save the rest of the economy. If a crisis in autos -- or steel or casinos or any other industry -- threatened to have a similar impact, then conceded, we'd have no choice but to intervene. But if not, NOT!LINK (http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/11/12/frum/)

[gta_bmx]

"i am going to use my home state as an example of why this is so.

if i buy a toyota truck, it is made in america. the engine is made in my city. if i want to buy a kia it's made about hundred miles down the road. maybe i have a little more money and want a snazzy bmw suv. yep they are made about eighty miles down the road.

now my friends new chevy truck? it's made in mexico and canada."



I'm not saying buy a vehicle made in Mexico; I wouldn't. I realize that a lot of foreign cars are made here. All I am saying is that if you have a choice, it's best to buy an American brand that's made here (or mostly made here). The workers who work at the American brand auto factories are in the union and make a lot more money and receive better benefits/retirement packages than workers at the foreign plants that are here in the US. So that's a lot more money being pumped into local communities. Then there's the fact that a lot of the management/engineering/design jobs related to Honda/Toyota/Kia are located in Asia and not here.

And I am also making the point that the American brands are lower priced and offer better styling. You need to analyze things more thoroughly and not be naive enough to think that buying a Toyota made in the USA benefits the USA the same amount as buying a Ford or Dodge that's made in the USA.

[comhcinc]

I'm not saying buy a vehicle made in Mexico; I wouldn't. I realize that a lot of foreign cars are made here. All I am saying is that if you have a choice, it's best to buy an American brand that's made here (or mostly made here).
you are the naive one. there is no such thing as a "foreign" or "American" car company any more ALL CAR COMPANIES ARE MULTINATIONAL
the new toyota truck 100% american made. the chevy truck 100% foreign made.
The workers who work at the American brand auto factories are in the union and make a lot more money and receive better benefits/retirement packages than workers at the foreign plants that are here in the US. that is not true at all. that is false. that is incorrect. factory workers make about the same. the only differance being in the non union shops have workers pay a part of their health insurance and benefits.

now i am a big union man but the UAW has been hard ass on this issue and quite frankly in this day and age it is stupid to except the automakers to split the whole bill.

So that's a lot more money being pumped into local communities. Then there's the fact that a lot of the management/engineering/design jobs related to Honda/Toyota/Kia are located in Asia and not here. again your ignorance on the subject shines through. many "foreign" auto makers hired american engineers to design cars for the north american market. not all but some. on the flip side a lot of "american" cars are designed elsewhere. (see the Focus,GTO, VUE, etc)

And I am also making the point that the American brands are lower priced and offer better styling.
not so once again. the cheapest cars on the market are all made by "foreign" automakers. (hell you can by KIAs two for one around here). as for styling that is a matter of opinion which sales indicate you are in the minority.
You need to analyze things more thoroughly and not be naive enough to think that buying a Toyota made in the USA benefits the USA the same amount as buying a Ford or Dodge that's made in the USA.

no. you need to get off this amerca #1 slightly racist, nationalist kick you are on and get your FACTS straight.

also you need to learn how to use the quote feature.

[gta_bmx]

Dude, merely suggesting that Americans should buy an American brand (one that's made here) when possible is not being racist. Racism is discriminating against a PERSON (not a car brand) based on their skin color or national origin in order to keep them from a job or housing opportunity. Instead of name calling like this is the 3rd grade, just relax and make your points in a classy manner.

[comhcinc]

Dude, merely suggesting that Americans should buy an American brand (one that's made here) when possible is not being racist. Racism is discriminating against a PERSON (not a car brand) based on their skin color or national origin in order to keep them from a job or housing opportunity. Instead of name calling like this is the 3rd grade, just relax and make your points in a classy manner.

it is racism. you are suggesting buying an "american" car "(one that's made)" when the fact, as i have tried to explain to you, is that your so called "american" cars are mostly made outside the country. while on the other hand those "foreign" cars are mostly made in this country.

what part of GM, FORD, AND THAT OTHER COMPANY MAKES MOST OF THEIR PRODUCTS IN OUTSIDE THE US WHERE TOYOTA, HONDA, NISSAN, AND KIA MAKE MOST OF THEIR PRODUCTS IN THIS COUNTRY. do you not understand ??????

i have explain that how many times now and yet you still think people should buy a GM. that is a classic case of racial prejudice.

[rabidbadger]

not racist, nationalist.

[skyz]

not racist, nationalist.

eactly...

[comhcinc]

not racist, nationalist.

i also mention nationalist and a whole lot of other info all of which he choose to ignore.

[phatlip12]

it is racism. you are suggesting buying an "american" car "(one that's made)" when the fact, as i have tried to explain to you, is that your so called "american" cars are mostly made outside the country. while on the other hand those "foreign" cars are mostly made in this country.

what part of GM, FORD, AND THAT OTHER COMPANY MAKES MOST OF THEIR PRODUCTS IN OUTSIDE THE US WHERE TOYOTA, HONDA, NISSAN, AND KIA MAKE MOST OF THEIR PRODUCTS IN THIS COUNTRY. do you not understand ??????

i have explain that how many times now and yet you still think people should buy a GM. that is a classic case of racial prejudice.

A lot of parts are made overseas but these companies still have factories and tons of employees in the US. I don't live that far from a Chrysler plant actually.

I mean, I know Nissan has factories over here too (I drive a Nissan). I'm just not sure if your implying that American car company's aren't...um...American?

[gta_bmx]

it is racism. you are suggesting buying an "american" car "(one that's made)" when the fact, as i have tried to explain to you, is that your so called "american" cars are mostly made outside the country. while on the other hand those "foreign" cars are mostly made in this country.

what part of GM, FORD, AND THAT OTHER COMPANY MAKES MOST OF THEIR PRODUCTS IN OUTSIDE THE US WHERE TOYOTA, HONDA, NISSAN, AND KIA MAKE MOST OF THEIR PRODUCTS IN THIS COUNTRY. do you not understand ??????

i have explain that how many times now and yet you still think people should buy a GM. that is a classic case of racial prejudice.


American car co's still make a lot of their cars here. Sure, some are made elsewhere, but there are still a lot of factories left here. I'm not sure of what the percentage of the total is. Do you know it? Plus they all share many of the same suppliers, so it's hard to determine. There are a lot of variables. I guess it isn't as easy to determine what an "American" car is as it was back in 1975.

On the window sticker, it does give a percentage of domestic content figure for people to consider. My grandparents bought a brand new Dodge Raider SUV in 1987, thinking they had bought a made in the USA Dodge. They were shocked to see the 'made in Japan' Mitsubishi sticker.

[tokenuser]

I mean, I know Nissan has factories over here too (I drive a Nissan). I'm just not sure if your implying that American car company's aren't...um...American?If people would stop being obtuse, they'd realise that that is not what he is saying at all.

He is saying that the US auto industry is not the Big 3, and buying into the whole "Buy American" is pointless when so much outsourced to Mexico and Canada, or even further afield - especially when so many of the "import" cars are actually locally made.

SAAB? Well they are GM. Does that make them American or Swedish?
Kia? GM as well. American or Korean?
Volvo? Ford.
Aston Martin? Ford.
Holden? Opel? Both GM. Both sell rebadged cars in the US as GM brands.

These are not "American" companies. They are global companies headquartered in the US.

[bigshotprof]

the original issue--whether they should be bailed out--all comes down to health care. The fixed costs that keep the Am companies profits so low are pensions and health care benefits won by the unions. These benefits aren't out of the ordinary for businesses overall, but the profit margins for manufacturing are much lower than for financials.

To make a long story short, the only solution that will provide stability over the next century is subsidized health care. Health care has to be taken out of the realm of corporate benefits; it just too expensive for them to be able to continue to pay.

The only reason that the Japanese companies provide pretty good health care for their American employees is that by just slightly under selling the unions they can keep unions out of their shops. If the big three either go under or are allowed to void their contracts--killing the unions--it will be open season on workers' benefits in all industrial sectors. More and more people will be forced below the radar when it comes to their health--unable to get it at work or afford it at home.

[phatlip12]

the original issue--whether they should be bailed out--all comes down to health care. The fixed costs that keep the Am companies profits so low are pensions and health care benefits won by the unions. These benefits aren't out of the ordinary for businesses overall, but the profit margins for manufacturing are much lower than for financials.

To make a long story short, the only solution that will provide stability over the next century is subsidized health care. Health care has to be taken out of the realm of corporate benefits; it just too expensive for them to be able to continue to pay.

The only reason that the Japanese companies provide pretty good health care for their American employees is that by just slightly under selling the unions they can keep unions out of their shops. If the big three either go under or are allowed to void their contracts--killing the unions--it will be open season on workers' benefits in all industrial sectors. More and more people will be forced below the radar when it comes to their health--unable to get it at work or afford it at home.

I'm afraid the same will happen to them what happened to my grandfather when the steal mill shutdown. Lost his pension and he had to work into his late 70's (he just recently stopped working due to health issues). Health care is often an issue for him. I don't want to talk about it much more because it upsets me such a great man has to work so hard after getting the short end of the stick.


Should the bail out happen? I don't know. I'm no economic expert. But whatever happens, we need to make sure we take care of these men and women long term.

[masherscf]

If the "American" car companies can't compete, it's the the practical consequence of decades of building crappy cars. It's the well-known business practice of American car companies to design cars that wear out in five years in order to support the market. I love my country, but anyone who buys a car from these people is seriously wacko.

I've owned my VW since 2000. My next car will be a Honda or a Toyota because I don't want to replace the car in five years.

[rabidbadger]

Need. More. Cupholders.

[bigshotprof]

If the "American" car companies can't compete, it's the the practical consequence of decades of building crappy cars. It's the well-known business practice of American car companies to design cars that wear out in five years in order to support the market. I love my country, but anyone who buys a car from these people is seriously wacko.

I've owned my VW since 2000. My next car will be a Honda or a Toyota because I don't want to replace the car in five years.

Have to admit I go along with you on this one--and not just because you look lke money in that snappy suit! I went through a string of Nissans and Toyotas. They got me over 200,000 miles with little or no major trouble. In 2004, I decided to "buy American" and got an Olds. It is a singular piece of crap. My turn signal indicator goes off on its own all the time, my "change oil" light came on when I got my first oil change and never went off, and every once in a while, the anti-theft device just decides the car is being stolen and locks it down. And that doesn't even count the miracle that is Dex-Cool--the anti-freeze that eats the seals out of its own cooling system--a mere $600 day in the sun for Mr. Goodwrench.

When it's time to buy again, I'm going back to the rising sun.

[skyz]

abc reported that all three heads of the big 3 auto makers flew to washington to plead their case in

you guessed it:

private jets

[bigshotprof]

abc reported that all three heads of the big 3 auto makers flew to washington to plead their case in

you guessed it:

private jets

Skyz, that is just rank, propagandistic class warfare.

ME LIKEY!!!!!!!!

[tokenuser]

abc reported that all three heads of the big 3 auto makers flew to washington to plead their case in

you guessed it:

private jets Gas prices have come right down ... and they might as well use them before they get repossessed.

[phatlip12]

Gas prices have come right down ... and they might as well use them before they get repossessed.

If you're going out you might as well do so in style.

:cool:

[gta_bmx]

Have to admit I go along with you on this one--and not just because you look lke money in that snappy suit! I went through a string of Nissans and Toyotas. They got me over 200,000 miles with little or no major trouble. In 2004, I decided to "buy American" and got an Olds. It is a singular piece of crap. My turn signal indicator goes off on its own all the time, my "change oil" light came on when I got my first oil change and never went off, and every once in a while, the anti-theft device just decides the car is being stolen and locks it down. And that doesn't even count the miracle that is Dex-Cool--the anti-freeze that eats the seals out of its own cooling system--a mere $600 day in the sun for Mr. Goodwrench.

When it's time to buy again, I'm going back to the rising sun.

Depends on the model. I bought a new Nissan Sentra, and the transmission only lasted 50K miles. Along with countless other problems. My wife worked at an Olds dealership until 2004, so I bought a '99 Olds 88 from them with 40K miles. Have driven it for 5 years and only have had to do maintenance on it, no repairs. Its engine is a 3.8 liter V6. This engine made the Ward's "best 10 engines of the 20th century" list. 5 of the engines on the list are from the USA. The neighbor has a Buick with a 3.8 and it has 275K miles.

[yssman]

How 'Bout A View From Michigan?

Simply put, people are scared here. We've been teetering on the edge of oblivion on and off since 2002 in our state, and the loss of any of them, GM, Chrysler or Ford would have costly effects for every single thing within our state. But its not just Michigan, its also Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Tenessee, Kentucky, and even the almighty California. There are far too many jobs dependent on this industry to allow it to fail outright. If we wish to let it fade, by all means... But an outright failure? Not here. Not now. Not if we want to see a Second Great Depression.

What should we do?

I'm of the mindset that the government should front some cash (a loan) to the automakers to keep the wheels turning. Giving them this miniscule ammount of cash will help far more people keep their jobs, their houses, have the pantry full, and keep the house warm for the long winter. This is far more important than the $700 BN (which has done little) for the banking industry.

RE: "BUY AMERICAN"

Interesting points to all, but you've got to remember where the money is coming back to... Back to the US, when you're buying the car. Sure, there are a large number of GM, Ford and Chrysler products built outside of the US. But if you've been paying attention to the automotive news, you'd know that they are re-opening more of their American plants to build the new fuel-efficent cars and trucks that the public is demanding. The problem is, if we do not get this bail out, we're losing jobs that Americans would otherwise have.

A large number of GM's products are built within in the United States, and they will be adding at least three new lines to build cars like the Volt and Cruze in the very near future. Ford will be adding at least two new lines, including the Fiesta and the MKIII Focus, as for Chrysler... Well... I'm not sure.

BTW: Kia is owned/operated by Hyundai, not GM. You may be thinking of Daewoo, which was absorbed by GM a few years ago. They recently sold off their interests in Suzuki and Isuzu as well.

[tokenuser]

BTW: Kia is owned/operated by Hyundai, not GM. You may be thinking of Daewoo, which was absorbed by GM a few years ago. They recently sold off their interests in Suzuki and Isuzu as well.True. I was thinking of Daewoo. Kia have connections with Ford and Mazda. Hyundai have also had Chrysler connections.

The automotive industry is so incestuous.

[bigshotprof]

Just for the record, even though my attitude toward the American product is clearly stated elsewhere (I also had a crappy Mustang and a horrible Dodge minvan), I am in favor of the assistance to the industry. The government has propped up agriculture for decades, and it has handed billions of dollars in gifts to the phone companies and cable operators by giving away or drastically undervaluing the worth of frequencies. Brick and Mortar deserves the same opportunity to modernize--as long as they have a plan to do so and not just a stay of execution. Modernizing plants is one thing, but the fixed costs of salary and health care have to be addressed. It won't matter if they are selling Jetsons flying cars if they can't afford their work force.

[speed]

I support this bailout only because North America is screwed without it. If GM were to go under, that's thousands of jobs lost right there, then the parts suppliers will likely go under, costing another couple thousand jobs. Without any parts suppliers, Ford and Chrysler can't build their vehicles and they go under, costing another couple thousand jobs. Beyond that, there's the jobs cost in all the dealerships across the country, as well as service centers. This extends beyond one company.

Also, just for the record, I've seen quite a few major news networks (and Digg users) blaming the UAW for all the problems. The issue isn't workers (the non-robotic ones (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3NGN4t4hm4)) wanting a decent wage with benefits, it's companies refusing to wake up and continuing to build monstrosities (http://www.hummer.com/) like (http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/) this (http://www.chrysler.com/en/)*.

*I just linked to Chrysler, rather than an individual car, since everything they make is a gas guzzling piece of crap.

[rabidbadger]

Interesting points from a reader of my fave conservative blogger (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/11/americas-other.html).

Ford has owned a majority stake in Mazda for decades. Nearly every vehicle in Mazda’s lineup is platform shared with a Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, or Volvo.
Until last year GM was the majority stake holder in Subaru. GM sold off their shares to Toyota. Ditto Isuzu.
Mitsubishi has been kept afloat for decades by Chrysler. In the 80’s and 90’s about half of the entire lineup at Chrysler was platform shared with Mitsubishi. Engines and transmissions are still shared today.
Toyota and GM share a factory in California. The factory produces the Toyota Corolla, Toyota Matrix, and Pontiac Vibe.
BMW has used GM automatic transmissions on and off for years. BMW paid GM to develop the automatic transmission in the BMW 5-series and Cadillac CTS.
GM, Chrysler, and Mercedes Benz have a joint venture to build hybrid powertrains.
Chrysler alone, backing out of a deal to buy automatic transmissions, forced transmission manufacturer Getrag into bankruptcy. Getrag supplies transmissions for every auto manufacturer.
Ford and Nissan buy their hybrid technology from Toyota.
All of the auto manufacturers share suppliers. Any one of the Domestic 3 failing would likely take out the other two and severely damage the foreign owned companies ability to continue to operate here. That’s not to say they don’t need to reorganize, but to even do that they have to be able to make payroll and buy materials. That is what this loan is about. Additionally, to the foreign governments who are planning to protest any bailout by the US government as unfair to imports, the imports have been getting their own “bailout” for years via socialized medicine and other government subsidies.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Interesting points from a reader of my fave conservative blogger (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/11/americas-other.html).OK, either my eyes are going bad, or you were being sarcastic. :)

[rabidbadger]

No. I have loved him since he was on Charlie Rose in the mid eighties. Dude is genius. And funny. And cute.











and he "goes to church" as we say in the gay mafia.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

and he "goes to church" as we say in the gay mafia.Nice.

[comhcinc]

Interesting points from a reader of my fave conservative blogger (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/11/americas-other.html).
the person missed the point of the post and assumed that any car not made by gm ford or that other one is an "import". that is not the case.
it mentions that getrag went into bankruptcy, not that it went out of business. nothing is wrong with bankruptcy.

the original text of the post:

The proposed bailout of GM, Ford, and Chrysler overlooks an important fact. The US has one of the most vibrant, dynamic, and efficient automobile industries in the world. It produces several million cars, trucks, and SUVs per year, employing (in 2006) 402,800 Americans at an average salary of $63,358. That's vehicle assembly alone; the rest of the supply chain employs even more people and generates more income. It's an industry to be proud of. Its products are among the best in the world.

Their names are Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Mazda, Mitsubishi, and Subaru

[rabidbadger]

Oh, I wasn't stating an opinion. just relaying some interesting stuff I didn't know before.

[tokenuser]

it mentions that getrag went into bankruptcy, not that it went out of business. nothing is wrong with bankruptcy.Bankruptcy comes in many forms, Chapter 11, Chapter 13, etc.

For the most part companies that go bankrupt, if their administration is good, they come out stronger than before (KMart for example, and I expect the same for Circuit City). The problem with bankruptcy is not for the company involved, but the companies downstream that the company owes money too that might get pennies on the dollar repaid for their owed debts, so for a large company going bankrupt it can have a cascading effect of forcing other companies into bankruptcy.

[comhcinc]

you are totally right. and it seems to me that if this industry is really the delicate house of cards people are claiming to be then it sounds like to me that bankruptcy all around is a good thing.

[kilroyperrywinkle]

I'm sort of against the bail out of the big three. Three quarters of my family works for a auto supplier and I did as well but I don't see dumping money into an union controlled industry like this is the answer. GM hasn't made money off a car in like 20 years. The only thing that was keeping them going was the margin on SUVs and high end luxury cars and once people stopped buying those they were left hanging. They painted themselves into this corner with not innovating, and the unions have cause the cost of productions to rise so high that even if they made quality cars they still wouldn't make money off of them.

Let them shrink. Cut the ties to the unions, and come back stronger with better quality lower cost (to the company) cars that people will buy.

Will it suck for Michigan and the rest of the country? Yes. Is my mom and my sister worried about their jobs? Hell yes.

But I don't think that bailing them out will fix their problems just postpone them... We have to force change in the market with different business models that aren't tied to over priced labor and strict union control, not throw money at it and hope people start buying SUVs again.

[speed]

I don't see unions as the problem. The costs associated with wages is so minuscule compared to other costs such as productions and even advertising. The only reason that the Japanese car companies aren't unionized is because they don't need them - they pay good wages, give good benefits and treat their workers with respect without a union. Unions only exist because management can't do their jobs properly.

[rabidbadger]

Here Here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNTpOnZqeUo&feature=related

[tokenuser]

I don't see unions as the problem. The costs associated with wages is so minuscule compared to other costs such as productions and even advertising. The only reason that the Japanese car companies aren't unionized is because they don't need them - they pay good wages, give good benefits and treat their workers with respect without a union. Unions only exist because management can't do their jobs properly.I dont think you understand what the unions do or how they work. Unions are not a replacement for a bad management, they represent the workers not the managers. Those benefits the Japanese manufacturrs give their non-unionised workers? They were based on the standard rates negotiated in the union shops over the past 100 years.

Having said that, the unions ARE part of the problem here. they did their job too well, and when times were going well, they negotiated (ON BEHALF OF THE WORKERS) amazing health care and pension benefits. When things aren't going well, they refuse to give up benefits. But thats nt the biggest problem ... the unions have been representing 3 and 4 generations of workers in the auto industry. That means that they represent workers who are retired ... and draining the pension plans and health benefits of the people who are still working. It get very expensive very fast. The japanese manufacturers dont have that baggage since they haven't been doing this in the US as long.

I have a lot of respect for where the union movement got us, but they haven't changed with the times. There is still a place for them - but I am not sure they have the flexability to work with an agile, global, 21st century economy.

BTW - My first job out of high school was as a computer programmer at a steel plant, for an organisation I worked at for over 13 years. They paid my way through University. I worked in conjunction with guys on the factory floor, did a stint at head office working with the CEO level staff, and then moved to the US working with the shop floor people again. I wasn't union staff, but worked closely with them. Unions gave them a collective voice they would not otherwise have had.

[speed]

I dont think you understand what the unions do or how they work. Unions are not a replacement for a bad management, they represent the workers not the managers. Those benefits the Japanese manufacturrs give their non-unionised workers? They were based on the standard rates negotiated in the union shops over the past 100 years.

I realize that, however (as a 4 year member of the UFCW) unions would be pointless if management were to treat their workers properly. Unions only exist because management treat the workers like crap.

[rabidbadger]

I was a union steward for 6 years, it was like pulling teeth just to get a cost of living raise. Also. This could/should be a new thread, maybe?

[tokenuser]

I think that the Autoworkers Union(s) are tied to the troubles of the big 3.
Like the unions and the car companies, the topic and this thread can not be seperated.

[speed]

I think that the Autoworkers Union(s) are tied to the troubles of the big 3.
Like the unions and the car companies, the topic and this thread can not be seperated.

I think the troubles extend way beyond the UAW. To single handedly blame them is ignoring the massive wages the executives make, the horrible business decisions they've made with vehicles no one wants, ridiculous advertising costs and endorsements and decreased consumer spending due to a failing economy.

Also, out of curiosity, are all the benefits that the UAW workers make paid for by the car companies or the union? I know where I work, all of our benefits (dental plan, prescription drug plan, eye ware plan, life insurance, etc.) are all paid for by UFCW 401 with our union dues. In fact, the only thing that my employer paid (to my knowledge) was the Alberta Health Care premium, which no longer exists. I realize this is the exception, rather than the rule, but I'd like to see an actual break down of the "average UAW worker wage" that people keep throwing around at $75/hour or something and I'd like to know if it is all coming out of the pockets of the big three.

[comhcinc]

yeah it comes out to about 78 dollars an hour.

look i am a fan of unions but the UAW has gotten too powerful.

[tokenuser]

Workers benefits are paid by the UAW (now - but that is a fairly recent thing), but they are funded by more than just the union dues. The UFCW is a catchall union that is highly fragmented in the industries and workers it supports. It is large, but not anywhere near as effective as the UAW which target a single industry and for the most part have direct negotiations with the big 3 (plus truck manufacturers like Mac, Freightliner, Catepillar, etc ... people forget about them).

[speed]

Workers benefits are paid by the UAW (now - but that is a fairly recent thing), but they are funded by more than just the union dues. The UFCW is a catchall union that is highly fragmented in the industries and workers it supports. It is large, but not anywhere near as effective as the UAW which target a single industry and for the most part have direct negotiations with the big 3 (plus truck manufacturers like Mac, Freightliner, Catepillar, etc ... people forget about them).

I don't see how that can be factored into the workers wages then. Before the UAW started paying them, then ok, but now, it's a logical fallacy. People see the $78/hour and automatically think it all comes from the big three.

I agree that the UAW is too powerful, but that concern comes more from concern over the workers and a lack of real representation.

[gta_bmx]

Perhaps instead of loaning the Big 3 $25 billion, we should buy $30 to $40 billlion worth of brand new economy cars and pass them out to low income people without dependable cars. That would buy about 4 million economy cars (Chevy Cobalt, etc.). Of course, do not just give it to them, have some rules on it -- they must work over 30 hours/week, get off welfare within 6 months, maintain the car, etc..

Private transportation co's give rides to poor people to get them and their kids to their Dr./dentist/counseling appointments. And also to their jobs. Medicaid pays like $60 just to take someone 3 miles to the dentist. And most of them have like 3 or 4 kids, so lots of appointments. Some co's charge like $40-$60 to the gov. just to drive someone to some little mall job at 'Hot Dog on a Stick' where the person only earns $20-$30. A lot of these folks don't have any other transportation options (no cars, limited or no bus lines). And many of them have to turn down FT good jobs due to lack of transportation. I know a guy who makes a ton of money with his minivan hauling these folks around.

This program of buying them cars would save lots of money in the long run -- get them off welfare/Medicaid/expensive custom transportation, etc..

[comhcinc]

Perhaps instead of loaning the Big 3 $25 billion, we should buy $30 to $40 billlion worth of brand new economy cars and pass them out to low income people without dependable cars. That would buy about 4 million economy cars (Chevy Cobalt, etc.). Of course, do not just give it to them, have some rules on it -- they must work over 30 hours/week, get off welfare within 6 months, maintain the car, etc..

Private transportation co's give rides to poor people to get them and their kids to their Dr./dentist/counseling appointments. And also to their jobs. Medicaid pays like $60 just to take someone 3 miles to the dentist. And most of them have like 3 or 4 kids, so lots of appointments. Some co's charge like $40-$60 to the gov. just to drive someone to some little mall job at 'Hot Dog on a Stick' where the person only earns $20-$30. A lot of these folks don't have any other transportation options (no cars, limited or no bus lines). And many of them have to turn down FT good jobs due to lack of transportation. I know a guy who makes a ton of money with his minivan hauling these folks around.

This program of buying them cars would save lots of money in the long run -- get them off welfare/Medicaid/expensive custom transportation, etc..
that would work but why spend all that money on a over priced piece of junk made in mexico when you can get a nassan made in this country?

[gta_bmx]

that would work but why spend all that money on a over priced piece of junk made in mexico when you can get a nassan made in this country?

Chevy Cobalts are made in Northern Ohio actually.

[comhcinc]

Chevy Cobalts are made in Northern Ohio actually.
and cost more than nassans and are not as nice.

[tokenuser]

and cost more than nassans and are not as nice.Thats because the nassan is sold by guys on street corners selling Rollex watches, Suny Playstations, IPODs, and Levy jeans.

It's nIssan. ;)

Harder to spell than Ford, or GM, but a lot easier than Koenigsegg.

[comhcinc]

Thats because the nassan is sold by guys on street corners selling Rollex watches, Suny Playstations, IPODs, and Levy jeans.

It's nIssan. ;)

Harder to spell than Ford, or GM, but a lot easier than Koenigsegg.
you are correct sir my spelling has failed me once again but even yet i stand by what i said.

[rabidbadger]

Thats because the nassan is sold by guys on street corners selling Rollex watches, Suny Playstations, IPODs, and Levy jeans.

It's nIssan. ;)

Harder to spell than Ford, or GM, but a lot easier than Koenigsegg.

I think I'd prefer a shitte playstation.

[zaza]

wow, me and Bush agree on something, i hate that people would lose their jobs but i have not ever owned one of the Big 3 and have no plans. Listen, the cars lots are FULL of cars/trucks they cannot sell now, why should anyone support making more, hell where are they gonna store them ? Looks like they have made the right decision.

[alaskalonewolf]

I hate to say it. But there needs to be a full-on strike
by all the workers, a blockade of every factory which
is going to subtract workers, or else don't f***ing whine
about the pink-slip. Besides, everyone knows that any
Union office is nothing more than a job placement service
these days. Gone are the sweatshops. They've all been
outsourced by huge companies to other countries. That's
why we need to bring back the embargo, the tariff and
some old school BUY AMERICAN products belief in our
own national pride. People don't care anymore though,
everyone goes in fifty odd different directions most of the
time so nothing is gonna' happen but a huge bucket of FAIL.

[rabidbadger]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/images/2008/12/20/bigthree.jpg

[alaskalonewolf]

Just curious, anyone actually getting a car for xmas?

[crickets]

[tokenuser]

Just curious, anyone actually getting a car for xmas?

[crickets]I got a new engine if that counts.

[alaskalonewolf]

Now ya' got my undivided attention. What kinda' goddess gives a man an engine for xmas? That's gotta' be the coolest gift, ever.