Are you a DC or a Marvel? -or- Marvel Boy vs DC Girl *dadada*

[sarahg42]

So -- I grew up loving me some DC. I still do, though I spend most of my time reading indie and small press books now-a-days. My boyfriend is a Marvel Zombie through and through. The discussions we have about the two universes can get pretty heated and pretty amusing at the same time. Inevitably it comes down to the same old argument... he says "DC characters are all way too overpowered" citing Superman as his prime example. --- I say "And Marvel doesn't have the same problem, c'mon -- what about Jean Grey and Scarlet Witch". It's all good natured in the end. No fist-a-cuffs or anything. But there has always been this rivalry between the two companies and the two groups of fans.

So -- are you a DC or a Marvel?

Is there someone if your life you butt heads with because of this?

[paper]

I'm technically a Dark Horse girl, but I voted DC boy because, given the choice between the two, I'm much more a DCU fan.

[owlboy]

I'm a DC guy, the only "Marvel" books I buy are Powers and Criminal; and the only 616 proper series I've ever bought is Irredeemable Ant-Man.

[gineration]

Green Lantern is my favorite along with Nightwing, Batman, and Superman...

[cadgers]

Ugh. I can't choose I'm a huge fan of both. On paper I pull more DC books but I really love what Bru and Bendis do at Marvel. Does Wildstorm and Vertigo count towards DC? Cause then I guess I would go with DC.

[jmstump]

I used to be a Marvel Zombie and then something happened, it was called Civil War. That along DC bringing Hal back into the fold, I jumped ship to DC. I try to limit myself to a few Marvel Books. If I'm reading older stuff, I like Marvel.

Although I grew up on Silver Age Superboy and such from my uncles. So possibly it was inevitable that I would switch to DC at some point.

[sarahg42]

Does Wildstorm and Vertigo count towards DC? Cause then I guess I would go with DC.

Yes, yes they do. :D

[sarahg42]

I'm technically a Dark Horse girl, but I voted DC boy because, given the choice between the two, I'm much more a DCU fan.

Hehehe, so are you a boy or a girl?

And yes... Dark Horse is awesome. It is here in Portland too! I love going to their warehouse sales. :D

[cadgers]

Yes, yes they do. :D

Then I have to vote DC for Ex Machina and Scalped alone.

[jmstump]

Hehehe, so are you a boy or a girl?

And yes... Dark Horse is awesome. It is here in Portland too! I love going to their warehouse sales. :D

He's Paper!

[sarahg42]

Then I have to vote DC for Ex Machina and Scalped alone.


And don't forget Y: The Last Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_The_Last_Man).... brilliant, absolutely brilliant. :)

[cenquist]

I voted Marvel since I grew up with them over DC characters (Batman the exception) but I now pull probably just as many DC as Marvel.

[diabhol]

So -- are you a DC or a Marvel?

Is there someone if your life you butt heads with because of this?

I'm a Marvel, now and forever. While I'll read the occasional DC title (and I'm totally looking forward to Blackest Night!), I read a crap-ton of Marvel and if I could only read one company for the rest of my life, I wouldn't even have to think about it.

Marvel has the characters (Jim Rhodes, Rachel Grey, and Marc Spector, for example) and stories I want (X-Infernus, Dark Reign, Secret Invasion). The DCU has Shazam, Green Lantern, and...nothing else I want, really.

There isn't anyone I really butt heads with on this. I got one buddy over all that I tend to talk comics with in person, but he reads Marvel and DC pretty much equally.

[jumpingjupiter]

I don't know what it is but I'm more drawn to DC than Marvel. But I do read Invincible Iron Man and Nova. But there's more DC on my bookshelf. Don't think one is better than an other though.

[esophagus]

I'm more invested in the DC Universe. I prefer the characters, and the general goings on, but I don't think I give much special preference to the company itself. I read Marvel, but I read it more for the quality of a story, or because a writer/artist I love is involved, whereas I read DC just for the sake of keeping up (Not to say quality doesn't factor in. Obviously it wouldn't be my prefered publisher if it was all crap).

[sarahg42]

Green Lantern is my favorite along with Nightwing, Batman, and Superman...


Heh, no need to guess how you voted. ;)

I am a big Superman fan. But currently, I am captivated by Simon Dark.

(of course I have a HUGE list of Vertigo titles I love... but that is for another post... ;) )

[sarahg42]

I used to be a Marvel Zombie and then something happened, it was called Civil War.
<snip>


What is it about Civil War that turned you off? Just out of curiosity.

[labor_days]

I'm a fan of the publisher that prints good books.

But if Vertigo counts same as DCU, then DC > everything.

[johnvferrigno]

When it comes to ongoing series, almost all of my favorites are Marvel. But when it comes to specific favorite stories, almost all of my favorites are DC. Kinda weird. but I definitely buy more Marvel books than DC books, so I voted marvel.

[neb]

Even though I enjoy both companies, I tend to be drawn more to the DCU. I can't really explain why, but it most likely has to do with all of my first comics being Superman, Batman, etc.

[optimus187prime]

Im a Marvel girl in a Marvel world, life in plastic its fantastic (four). Although I am a HUGE Vertigo fan, ouch my brain.

[jmstump]

What is it about Civil War that turned you off? Just out of curiosity.

A lot of things really. It was suppose to be this earth shattering event, the problem is we've seen this story so many times before, in fact DC has printed a couple of similar ones.

I really didn't like what was done with Cap, Spiderman, and Iron Man in this book. All were characters that I enjoyed, but this book created issues. Tony became a dick, they conveniently left out the major reason he was on the reg side in the main book and put it into one of the other Civil War titles. Cap acted like a lunatic, he just seemed off the entire time. Lastly they screwed up Spidey so much they had to reboot him to 20 years ago. I didn't read Spiderman then I read him when he was married to MJ so I was bitter, which was the bigger reason for the reboot.

Along with I always knew which side I was on, something you weren't suppose to feel when reading this book, and the lateness I was done. I still read Cap religiously along with the Ultimate stuff. I'll go on record that Captain America is currently the best book published by Marvel.

Alright I'm done ranting like a lunatic now.

[zombox]

Definately have a much stronger affinity for Marvel characters. I enjoy some of the DC characters, but I can read almost any Marvel character and be somewhat entertained. I think their comparitively low power scale is more appealing. Their flawed character is definately more appealing.

[labor_days]

I think their comparitively low power scale is more appealing. Their flawed character is definately more appealing.
This is a myth with no concrete examples to prove it is true.

Superman / Hulk
Wonder Woman / Sentry
Batman / Captain America
Darkseid / Galactus
Monitor / Uatu
Neron / Mephisto
Flash / Silver Surfer
Zatanna / Scarlet Witch
Green Arrow / Hawkeye

Etc, etc, etc.

[sarahg42]

This is a myth with no concrete examples to prove it is true.

Superman / Hulk
Wonder Woman / Sentry
Batman / Captain America
Darkseid / Galactus
Monitor / Uatu
Neron / Mephisto
Flash / Silver Surfer
Zatanna / Scarlet Witch
Green Arrow / Hawkeye

Etc, etc, etc.

Hehehe *high fives* This is the SAME thing I go through with my Marvel Guy. Good arguments. ;) Oh yeah and nice avatar -- loved Suburban Glamour.

[sarahg42]

A lot of things really. It was suppose to be this earth shattering event, the problem is we've seen this story so many times before, in fact DC has printed a couple of similar ones.

<snip>

Alright I'm done ranting like a lunatic now.

Heh, nah -- you were just being... thorough. It's good to know why you don't like something. I (not being a regular Marvel reader) only knew what was happening with Civil War from my bf and podcasts. Meh. It sounded like it was semi-interesting... but I am generally not a fan of global events. I hate being forced into buying titles I normally wouldn't, just so I can get the full story. Not to mention that it is hard on the pocketbook.

[oh_caroline]

My motto is, "False dichotomies or nothing!"

(But I voted Marvel because, well, they're better :P).

[sarahg42]

My motto is, "False dichotomies or nothing!"

(But I voted Marvel because, well, they're better :P).

Actually, neither the poll or the thread is a false dichotomy. Since "The fallacy of false dichotomy is committed when the arguer claims that his conclusion is one of only two options, when in fact there are other possibilities. " ;)

The poll has a third option. Neither for me! People can certainly select that. ;) That and I don't make either a forgone conclusion.

A false dichotomy is more like this:

Either I keep smoking, or I'll get fat. I don't want to get fat, so I better keep smoking.

Hehehe... just spent a lot of time researching logical fallacies lately... sorry. :D

[mrmister]

Started off reading almost solely Marvel, but now it is a pretty even split although I enjoy DC's books more at the moment.

[oh_caroline]

Actually, neither the pole or the thread is a false dichotomy. Since "The fallacy of false dichotomy is committed when the arguer claims that his conclusion is one of only two options, when in fact there are other possibilities. " ;)

The poll has a third option. Neither for me! People can certainly select that. ;) That and I don't make either a forgone conclusion.

A false dichotomy is more like this:

Either I keep smoking, or I'll get fat. I don't want to get fat, so I better keep smoking.

Hehehe... just spent a lot of time researching logical fallacies lately... sorry. :D

But the way I read the poll, your assumption is that someone either prefers DC to Marvel, or Marvel to DC, or they like "neither." That's the definition of a false dichotomy. Now, if the "neither" option is meant to encompass "I like both equally", that's different. But that's not how I read it.

Totally academic, anyway, because Marvel is better :P.

[sarahg42]

But the way I read the poll, your assumption is that someone either prefers DC to Marvel, or Marvel to DC, or they like "neither." That's the definition of a false dichotomy. Now, if the "neither" option is meant to encompass "I like both equally", that's different. But that's not how I read it.

Totally academic, anyway, because Marvel is better :P.

Yes, "Neither for me" is meant to encompass I like both equally or I prefer some other company... Perhaps I should have made it more clear but when you create poll in the last five minutes of your work-day clarity is an afterthought. LOL.

Yeah Marvel Shchmarvel :p DC Rules!

*snickers*
j/k

Seriously though, I am not all anti-marvel. There are some characters I love. Gambit, Jubilee and Warlock to name a few... *shrugs* It is just that I tend to lean DC between the two "big" guys... I guess it is what I grew up loving. I had Wonder Woman underoos for cryin out loud. *laughs*

[oh_caroline]

Yes, "Neither for me" is meant to encompass I like both equally or I prefer some other company... Perhaps I should have made it more clear but when you create poll in the last five minutes of your work-day clarity is an afterthought. LOL.

Yeah Marvel Shchmarvel :p DC Rules!

*snickers*
j/k

Seriously though, I am not all anti-marvel. There are some characters I love. Gambit, Jubilee and Warlock to name a few... *shrugs* It is just that I tend to lean DC between the two "big" guys... I guess it is what I grew up loving. I had Wonder Woman underoos for cryin out loud. *laughs*


I was being a little facetious myself. I read more Marvel at the moment and the X-Men + Iron Man are sort of my comics-reading "home." But there are a lot of DC Comics I like, too, with "52" and "The Question" and "Green Lantern/Green Arrow" being a few of my all-time favorite series. So I don't really have 'the argument' with anyone in my life and, if anything, I spend time trying to get my Marvel-loving friends to try more DC & Vertigo books.

[sarahg42]

So I don't really have 'the argument' with anyone my life and, if anything, I spend time trying to get my Marvel-loving friends to try more DC & Vertigo books.

Well the "arguments" my bf and I have are always interesting... really more debates -- no hurt feelings in the end. And we always read what the other is reading. So it all works out. I think getting people to open their minds to new books is the best thing about these types of discussions.

It's just funny to me how rampant and vicious and protective some people can get about "their side". I have read some pretty intense arguments on forums between the two camps.

Though -- I think even hardcore Marvel, anti-DC, fans get into some Vertigo now and again. They have been putting out some brilliant stuff for quite a while now.

[zombox]

I disagree. While anyone can write anything, continuity has generally dictated a certain paradigm in each respective character. Hulk is pretty much the strongest and toughest character in Marvel, at least that has a regular presence. His greatest feats are unimaginable to us, certainly, but they are a pale shadow of what Superman can do in any form. Someone could come along and write a Hulk story here he cracks the planet with his bare hands. Can you imagine how much people would mock that as a break from the the established power that the Hulk has? Superman, on the other hand, absolutely could shatter Earth in most of his incarnations. In that case, we'd wonder if the writers had been reading Superman at all. This is just one of many examples in measureable difference in characters power level.


This is a myth with no concrete examples to prove it is true.

Superman / Hulk
Wonder Woman / Sentry
Batman / Captain America
Darkseid / Galactus
Monitor / Uatu
Neron / Mephisto
Flash / Silver Surfer
Zatanna / Scarlet Witch
Green Arrow / Hawkeye

Etc, etc, etc.

[sarahg42]

This is just one of many examples in measurable difference in characters power level.

Can you tell me this... why is it that Superman is the one example everyone uses in this argument? He does have his flaws and plenty of weaknesses as well... Just sayin'

[jmstump]

Someone could come along and write a Hulk story here he cracks the planet with his bare hands. Can you imagine how much people would mock that as a break from the the established power that the Hulk has?

In Planet Hulk, Hulk holds a planet together his bare hands. Just saying.

[excalipoor]

i'm a marvel zombie. y the last man is the only dc title i ever bought. well, but my monthly marvel issues are getting less and less. secret invasion really hurts my wallet, i'm gonna save that money for a DSLR or a PS3 instead. i did digg the initiative tie-in to the secret invasion. skrull kill krew is funny.

[esophagus]

I disagree. While anyone can write anything, continuity has generally dictated a certain paradigm in each respective character. Hulk is pretty much the strongest and toughest character in Marvel, at least that has a regular presence. His greatest feats are unimaginable to us, certainly, but they are a pale shadow of what Superman can do in any form. Someone could come along and write a Hulk story here he cracks the planet with his bare hands. Can you imagine how much people would mock that as a break from the the established power that the Hulk has? Superman, on the other hand, absolutely could shatter Earth in most of his incarnations. In that case, we'd wonder if the writers had been reading Superman at all. This is just one of many examples in measureable difference in characters power level.Superman has been "powered down" just about as often as Hulk has. Besides, Superman's character is meant to represent flawed perfection. The struggle of great power. His power level is far from representative of the heroes in the DCU as a whole. In fact I would say, as a whole, DC has a lot more room for heroes with no powers whatsoever than Marvel does. Still, overall the power levels of both companies are probably somewhere around equal. DC definitely isn't more "powered up" though.

[winthewonderboy]

I love Marvel, but marvel never gave me (All Star)Superman, Batman, Starman, all the amazing Vertigo series and WATCHMEN!!! though, Alias kicked ass and the icon books are awesome. In the end I'm a DC Boy through and through.

My girlfriends a DC Girl. So no arguments, we both agree DC's way better then marvel:)

[sarahg42]

DC definitely isn't more "powered up" though.

I think it can be boiled down to the fact that Marvel is more grounded in our real world... while DC is in an alternate Earth essentially... easier to bend things that way. ;)

[paper]

Can you tell me this... why is it that Superman is the one example everyone uses in this argument? He does have his flaws and plenty of weaknesses as well... Just sayin'

My thoughts on Superman (http://www.ifanboy.com/content/articles/In_Defense_of_Superman)
My further thoughts on Superman (http://www.ifanboy.com/content/articles/The_Promise_of_Superman)

[paper]

I think it can be boiled down to the fact that Marvel is more grounded in our real world... while DC is in an alternate Earth essentially... easier to bend things that way. ;)

they say this a lot, but I don't really see it as true. Just because they use the same president and cities as in our world, I don't think it's any more grounded. At least, not beyond those superficial things.

[neb]

they say this a lot, but I don't really see it as true. Just because they use the same president and cities as in our world, I don't think it's any more grounded. At least, not beyond those superficial things.

Agreed. Marvel has as many other world, non-real parts to it as much as DC does. Marvel is as real as a fake pair of boobies.

[bonemachine]

In a word balloon interview Greg Rucka once used 911 as an example. He said that the difference between DC and Marvel is that an event like 911 could happen in the Marvel U but not in the DCU. Basically I think that Marvel is more in touch with the events happening in real life but that doesn't mean they're the more 'realistic' publisher. It's just that they choose to reference events in real life in their stories. EDIT: Also the use of pop culture is something that mainly the Marvel U uses. The DCU rarely, if anything, uses Pop culture.

Anyway Even though I'm equally involved in Marvel and DC (I get more Marvel issues but DC runs my trades shelf) I have to pick DC.
Bar The Ultimates Vol:1+2 which are some of my favourite series' ever, DC is my favourite for Batman and Preacher alone (if youinclude Vertigo).

[oh_caroline]

they say this a lot, but I don't really see it as true. Just because they use the same president and cities as in our world, I don't think it's any more grounded. At least, not beyond those superficial things.

Yeah, I don't get that argument either. I mean, I'm somewhat more of a Marvel fan because, for whatever reason, those are stories/characters/writers I've gotten into. But to say that there's anything inherent in the universes -- especially when they've traded writers back and forth as much as they have -- makes me question.

For what it's worth, I think all cities in fiction are fictional cities. "Friends" and "Law & Order" and "Sex & the City" are all set in New York. "Cheers" and "Gone Baby Gone" are both set in Boston.

[sarahg42]

For what it's worth, I think all cities in fiction are fictional cities. "Friends" and "Law & Order" and "Sex & the City" are all set in New York. "Cheers" and "Gone Baby Gone" are both set in Boston.

I sort have to disagree with that. You have to have some accuracy, as a writer, when you are dealing with real locales and in real time. There are limitations. That is really all I am trying to say.

But isn't that what is great about opinions? Everyone has one... and thinks theirs is right. LOL

[sarahg42]

Marvel is as real as a fake pair of boobies.


I am not saying Marvel is real by any means. That would be silly. I am saying they base their Universe in our reality... which gives them certain limitations.

[sarahg42]

My thoughts on Superman (http://www.ifanboy.com/content/articles/In_Defense_of_Superman)
My further thoughts on Superman (http://www.ifanboy.com/content/articles/The_Promise_of_Superman)

ROFL. I will have to give those a read later. I am still not awake enough. Thanks for the links. :)

[esophagus]

I am not saying Marvel is real by any means. That would be silly. I am saying they base their Universe in our reality... which gives them certain limitations.Not really. They don't have the same president as us, they have buildings that we don't, they obviously have abilities that aren't real. Marvel is as grounded in reality as they'd like to be. If something doesn't work for them, they can change it. They're really only in our universe, as Paper said, in fairly trivial ways.

[paper]

I don't think it's possible to weigh the differences. There's a San Francisco in the DCU, but there aren't any mutants living there. Whose version is more realistic? Bush is not the current president in the DCU, but in the Marvel universe, where he is the president, he's had conversations with Tony Stark and had to deal with a Skrull invasion.

Either universe represents an alternative version of our world. You can't simply calculate the distance from the source by counting the similarities. You also have to look at the differences. And it's too unwieldy an equation to ever solve definitively.

[esophagus]

Is Bush still president? They had election posters for a while, but don't think I heard anything about an actual election. Did Colbert win, or is Bush moving into a third term?

[paper]

They did elect Obama (he won the electoral and Colbert won the popular), but I don't know if he's in office yet. In our world Bush is still our president until January. Not sure what month it is in the Marvel U.

If you want, trade Bush and SI for Obama and the Thunderbolts. Diggle keeps referencing that he gets to write Obama into his scripts lately.

[sarahg42]

<snip>

Either universe represents an alternative version of our world. You can't simply calculate the distance from the source by counting the similarities. You also have to look at the differences. And it's too unwieldy an equation to ever solve definitively.

I suppose I am just thinking of it from a writers prospective. I was just discussing this very thing with my boyfriend. As a writer -- I KNOW there are limitations when you use a real locale versus a fictional city. People will always have something critical to say when you use a real location. Just listen to the Punisher: War Zone Podcast and Ron. He points out how wrong the subway signs are... You can't say those things about Gotham -- the whole city is made up. And that is just the superficial --- but it inevitably affects everything. Trickles outwards. Meh - again just my opinion.

[oh_caroline]

I sort have to disagree with that. You have to have some accuracy, as a writer, when you are dealing with real locales and in real time. There are limitations. That is really all I am trying to say.


But in something like a comic book, "accuracy" is all kind of relative and superficial. I mean, I know I :eek:'ed in the most recent 'thunderbolts,' when Norman Osborn walked out of the Capitol Building and was standing on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. But does that speak to the substance of the story at all? Everybody in DC bitches about Kevin Costner in "No Way Out" taking the subway to Georgetown (you can't), but ultimately it has no effect on whether it's a good movie or not.

Sure, the use of real-world places in comics can be cool -- I'm particularly fond of the "L.A." references in "Runaways" and "The Order." But the look and feel of Gotham or Opal City can be just as compelling and just as grounded in (or absent from) reality.

[sarahg42]

They did elect Obama (he won the electoral and Colbert won the popular), but I don't know if he's in office yet. In our world Bush is still our president until January. Not sure what month it is in the Marvel U.

Colbert was like a giant kid when that issue came out. I love his involvement with Marvel. So cute.

[sarahg42]

But in something like a comic book, "accuracy" is all kind of relative and superficial.

Right, but I think starting with superficial limitations puts a sort of lockdown on the imagination. *shrugs*

[oh_caroline]

Colbert was like a giant kid when that issue came out. I love his involvement with Marvel. So cute.

I have to say, Quesada's appearance on Colbert was the first place I found out what 'Civil War' was actually about, and I'd been going to comics stores and seeing ads for months.

[paper]

I'm also a writer.

I'm reaching into my wallet right now. Behind my Barnes and Noble Rewards card and my Justice Society of America Junior Membership card is my creative license. It allows me to bend reality.

If anything, writing for an existing setting offers more in the way of tools than hurdles. Use them if you want, or ignore them. I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where the physical reality of a city would really hinder my ability to tell a story in that setting. I can think of ways where real-world elements would help give texture, but I can't thing of a reasonable situation where I'd be hurt.

"Well, I need a desert for this scene. There don't happen to be any naturally occurring deserts in New Jersey."

If I'm writing for Marvel, sure, that's a problem. It's still a problem if I'm writing for DC (which does have a New Jersey). It's a problem, really anywhere, because it's so far removed from reality that it requires a great deal of exposition. This isn't a plot element I could just squeeze into my Fantastic Four plot or, for that matter, my JLA plot.

There is no thriving Atlantis in our own world, so they invented one in Marvel. How is this any less bizarre and otherworldly than Metropolis?

[paper]

Lets call the Marvel universe a "selectively permeable reality." Or a "fair weather reality."

If it's convenient that the Hulk not rampage through Austin, Texas on Wednesday, as he usually doesn't, then that will continue to not happen. But if it's convenient for the sake of the story that he does, he will parade down Juniper Street (which may not even exist), twirling a parking meter like a baton. And even if Juniper Street, which may well exist, doesn't have parking meters, they shall sprout up by decree of creative ordinance so that they might be plucked like the trifles they really are.

[sarahg42]

I'm also a writer.

I'm reaching into my wallet right now. Behind my Barnes and Noble Rewards card and my Justice Society of America Junior Membership card is my creative license. It allows me to bend reality.


*laughs* I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one. Yes - there is always creative license. But I do believe when you are dealing with real time and real places it can be restrictive.

It's like the difference between hard sci-fi and soft sci-fi. In hard sci-fi it is very much grounded in scientific fact and theory. With limitations and restrictions based on that. In soft sci-fi there is some basis in reality -- but it allows for more loosey goosey science.

PS -- I saw you were a screenwriter. We'll have to chat sometime. I used to work for a couple of film fests

[sarahg42]

Lets call the Marvel universe a "selectively permeable reality." Or a "fair weather reality."


Clever. ;)

[paper]

Ah, but these universes are of the loosey goosey variety.

Allows for the sky to fall at random.

So, while you may want to say one is of the harder sci variety than the other, we're still talking marshmallows here. Neither are the oat shapes.

[oh_caroline]

*laughs* I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one. Yes - there is always creative license. But I do believe when you are dealing with real time and real places it can be restrictive.




I've never been to Westchester County, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have all the undeveloped acres of forests and mountains that the X-Men roam around in. The last decade of Daredevil writers have freely admitted that the 'Hell's Kitchen' they use bears no resemblance to the way the neighborhood looks now. I'm also pretty sure there is no gaping crater in the middle of Stamford, Connecticut. They call these places after a real place, but the resemblance ends there.

On the other hand, I have spent virtually no time in the city of Los Angeles, but if you set a comic in L.A. it comes pre-packaged with associations from the many, many stories and movies and TV shows I've seen about L.A. L.A. fiction has a special cachet because of that rich fictional history. You don't get that when you set a story in Coast City. Now, talented writers can build up a history about Coast City over the years -- or they can do such a good job of presenting it on the page that all the associations you need for the story are there. But, I still don't see how how an L.A. story is inherently any thing *less* than a Coast City story, and it has the ground-state potential to be more.

[sarahg42]

I've never been to Westchester County, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have all the undeveloped acres of forests and mountains that the X-Men roam around in. The last decade of Daredevil writers have freely admitted that the 'Hell's Kitchen' they use bears no resemblance to the way the neighborhood looks now. I'm also pretty sure there is no gaping crater in the middle of Stamford, Connecticut. They call these places after a real place, but the resemblance ends there.

I really think you are missing the point I am trying to make. Yes I realize that the Marvel universe is fictional. I know X-men aren't roaming around the mountains and forests. I realize that writers take some liberties and stretch and bend realities as much as they can... My point is that, even when taking liberties, there are certain limitations a writer has when they are writing in a known time and place. A great writer will make you forget the known time and place and submerse you in their version of reality. I agree with that. But I also know great writers go to great lengths to get some things as accurate as possible (street names etc.) when dealing with a known time and place. These things can sometimes put even talented folks in a box of sorts.

*shrugs* It is just my opinion though. Some people agree, some don't.

[paper]

I disagree with the notion that exactitude in realistic detail equates to better writing. Sometimes that isn't in any way related to storytelling.

[labor_days]

I disagree. While anyone can write anything, continuity has generally dictated a certain paradigm in each respective character. Hulk is pretty much the strongest and toughest character in Marvel, at least that has a regular presence. His greatest feats are unimaginable to us, certainly, but they are a pale shadow of what Superman can do in any form. Someone could come along and write a Hulk story here he cracks the planet with his bare hands. Can you imagine how much people would mock that as a break from the the established power that the Hulk has? Superman, on the other hand, absolutely could shatter Earth in most of his incarnations. In that case, we'd wonder if the writers had been reading Superman at all. This is just one of many examples in measurable difference in characters power level.

Superman hasn't had that level of power in ages. Since the silver age when he moved planets like marbles.

By the same measure the Hulk is lifting mountains, has cracked the Earth, rides atop a spaceship going at lightspeed, has no upper limit of strength, gets blasted by the equivalent of a nuclear bomb...in the face and comes back to beat the living shit out of anything. And this all relatively recently for the Hulk. None of which can be said of the Superman of the main DCU in recent decades.

And I am not even going to go into Red Hulk. Or the power of Thor.

Granted there are many takes on the actual limit these characters have to their strength. Usually dictated by plot. But to say Superman is anymore outrageous in power than the Hulk, Thor or Sentry is a bit false.

[oh_caroline]

I really think you are missing the point I am trying to make. Yes I realize that the Marvel universe is fictional. I know X-men aren't roaming around the mountains and forests. I realize that writers take some liberties and stretch and bend realities as much as they can... My point is that, even when taking liberties, there are certain limitations a writer has when they are writing in a known time and place. A great writer will make you forget the known time and place and submerse you in their version of reality. I agree with that. But I also know great writers go to great lengths to get some things as accurate as possible (street names etc.) when dealing with a known time and place. These things can sometimes put even talented folks in a box of sorts.

*shrugs* It is just my opinion though. Some people agree, some don't.

I'm not trying to attack or dismiss your opinion, I'm just trying to understand it. I can't think of a specific way that setting a story in a real place (or a place that shares the name of a real place) is limiting. It may require more work if the writer is devoted to accuracy but that's the writer's choice; nobody's forced to include references to the specific intersection or storefront where Spider-Man fights Stilt-Man. Most Marvel comics set in New York don't do anything more than have the Empire State Building or Statue of Liberty in the background for a scene or two.

[oh_caroline]

I disagree with the notion that exactitude in realistic detail equates to better writing. Sometimes that isn't in any way related to storytelling.

Have you read Anthony Lane's essay about bestsellers that ran in the 'New Yorker' a few years ago? (and by 'a few years ago' I probably mean, 'when you were ten, but anyway, it's in his collection "Nobody's Perfect"). He has a great riff on the difference between random info-dumping and world building, where he uses 'Two hundred European cities have bus links to Frankfurt' as an example of the former. So I tend to refer to that kind of thing as 'bus links to Frankfurt,' but I realize that doesn't actually mean anything to most people. ;)

ETA: I don't actually think this is a huge problem in comics, btw, but it definitely can be in prose.

[paper]

Have you read Anthony Lane's essay about bestsellers that ran in the 'New Yorker' a few years ago? (and by 'a few years ago' I probably mean, 'when you were ten, but anyway, it's in his collection "Nobody's Perfect"). He has a great riff on the difference between random info-dumping and world building, where he uses 'Two hundred European cities have bus links to Frankfurt' as an example of the former. So I tend to refer to that kind of thing as 'bus links to Frankfurt,' but I realize that doesn't actually mean anything to most people. ;)

ETA: I don't actually think this is a huge problem in comics, btw, but it definitely can be in prose.

I'm not familiar with it, but I'm certainly in agreement with the thesis. You can have the best research in all the world, the most field experience and first-hand knowledge, but it's no sure bet that you're going to tell the best story. It certainly helps, and if you have enough research, there's a certain value to it. But storytelling is something else entirely. It might be the ability to make all the real bits as unimportant as the nonsense and all the nonsense every bit as real as the genuine article.

[sarahg42]

I disagree with the notion that exactitude in realistic detail equates to better writing. Sometimes that isn't in any way related to storytelling.

That is not what I am saying at all.

[sarahg42]

I'm not trying to attack or dismiss your opinion, I'm just trying to understand it. I can't think of a specific way that setting a story in a real place (or a place that shares the name of a real place) is limiting. It may require more work if the writer is devoted to accuracy but that's the writer's choice; nobody's forced to include references to the specific intersection or storefront where Spider-Man fights Stilt-Man. Most Marvel comics set in New York don't do anything more than have the Empire State Building or Statue of Liberty in the background for a scene or two.

Oh I know you're not. No worries. I'm more frustrated with myself for not getting my point across clearly. Heh.

What I am trying to get at is that when you work in a completely fictional setting you have quite a bit more leeway. The world becomes more mailable and therefor there is more freedom and it is easier to take liberties. It also makes it easier for the reader to believe the exaggerated nature of the story.

[zombox]

In Planet Hulk, Hulk holds a planet together his bare hands. Just saying.

Planet Hulk was universally mocked. :)

[mastap]

Planet Hulk was universally mocked. :)

We must be in different universes then

[jmstump]

We must be in different universes then

Agreed, I've not heard bad things about Planet Hulk, now World War Hulk that's a different story. I really enjoyed Planet Hulk, it was the first original thing they did with the character in a while.

[racemccloud]

Planet Hulk was universally mocked. :)

No, "World War Hulk" was universally mocked. "Planet Hulk" was universally praised.

I may be missing some context from earlier in the thread, but I don't feel like reading back. But "Planet Hulk" was a big ol' stinky hit (critically if not commercially).

[racemccloud]

I disagree with the notion that exactitude in realistic detail equates to better writing. Sometimes that isn't in any way related to storytelling.

I'm just impressed that somebody used the word "exactitude" today. Really, well done!

[labor_days]

Hulk holding the planet together with his bare hands is too fucking much. Laugh Out Loud.

Dude who said Superman is overpowered in comparison to Marvel characters = dunk'd.

http://www.nba.com/media/celtics/dee_brown_dunk400550.jpg

[cam-]

Seriously though, I am not all anti-marvel. There are some characters I love. Gambit, Jubilee and Warlock to name a few...

Warlock? Jesus, you're a rare breed.

[jasonb35]

I'm more of a Marvel guy only because those are the comics that I grew up reading. Growing up I was a Marvel Zombie and never bought DC. I'm much more open to both universes now but Marvel (especially the X-Men) is the comfort zone. With DC, unless it is Batman, I'm not all that familiar with what has come before so I stay away from the big crossovers. Now I'm just interested in good stories and I don't care which universe they are in or who publishes them.

[esophagus]

Planet Hulk was universally mocked. :)
No, it was actually a fantastic story.

[cam-]

No, it was actually a fantastic story.

MAybe he meant all the other planets in the universe made fun of Planet Hulk.

EGO: Hey PLanet Hulk, nice pock marked surface.
PLANET HULK: Don't make Planet Hulk angry, you wouldn't like Planet Hulk when it's angry...

and so on.

[oh_caroline]

Warlock? Jesus, you're a rare breed.

I have a Warlock action figure. Like the vast majority of the geek stuff I own, it was given to me. I did not choose it. However, it is one of the more awe-inspiring things I own. A lot of work went into that character design, is all I'm saying. A lot of work and possibly some hard drug use.

[neb]

Warlock was also pretty awesome in his recent cameo in Nova.

Just sayin'...

[cam-]

Warlock was also pretty awesome in his recent cameo in Nova.

Just sayin'...

Isn't it like a She-warlock now? Maybe I'm thinking of Quasar.

EDIT: WAIIIIIIT I'm an idiot, I thought she meant Adam Warlock, forget EVERYTHING.

[sarahg42]

Warlock was also pretty awesome in his recent cameo in Nova.

Just sayin'...

I particular loved him in the Web of Spiderman Annual #2 ('86). But yes, he was pretty awesome in Nova.!

[sarahg42]

EDIT: WAIIIIIIT I'm an idiot, I thought she meant Adam Warlock, forget EVERYTHING.

Nope, not Adam Warlock. LOL It's ok self-friend... all is forgiven. ;)

[optimus187prime]

I thought Planet Hulk was pretty good but I am not a huge fan of Hulk as a leading character. It is definitely the best Hulk story I have read.

[labor_days]

Somebody just made an Ego, The Living Planet joke in this thread.

Mods, lock this thread.

[decepticon]

I read from book-to-book more than publisher, but looking at my pull list, it's a lot more DC heavy than Marvel...so DC. Also, Batman would be a favorite character of mine should I have to pick one. So Dc.

[scoobydiesel]

Marvel. and i just made it a tie 17-17 lol

[optimus187prime]

Marvel. and i just made it a tie 17-17 lol

Good work sir. :)

[gobo]

Grew up as a Marvel Boy, but i'm probably more of a DC guy now.

It's split pretty evenly though so I can't vote. If I had to pick ONE company it'd be Image.

[sarahg42]

It's split pretty evenly though so I can't vote. If I had to pick ONE company it'd be Image.

Sure you can... you can vote Neither for me!

[gobo]

But I still love both DC and Marvel, I don't want to shun them!

[skul-less]

I'm a DC gal, growing up on impulse comics and young justice ^^

[sarahg42]

But I still love both DC and Marvel, I don't want to shun them!

*laughs* A Neither for Me vote doesn't mean you are shunning them. It means that you like them both equally or you prefer another company. *shrugs*

[sullivan85]

I love stuff from both companies, but based on sheer numbers alone I have always bought more Marvel stuff than DC.

[labor_days]

Oh man. Young Justice was the best shit ever. I hate people that hate Young Justice.

[thenextchampion]

I'm torn between being either side really.

I will always love Batman but I will always love Spider-Man as well. It's not like it is because of comics either: the animated shows from the 90's made me be uber fans of the characters.

If I look at it on what comics I pull (this excludes mini's or event books):

5 DC (Batman, Detective Comics, Green Lantern, Green Lantern Corps, JSA)
6 Marvel (Captain America, Deadpool, Frank Castle: Punisher MAX, Incredible Hercules, Nova, Wolverine)

So I pick up one more Marvel title then DC...but really it's not that big of a difference in terms of quality for either side. Maybe it's because I pick the best of the bunch on each side and dont try anything new...Either way I'm all 50/50 when it comes to both.

[racemccloud]

I'm a DC gal, growing up on impulse comics and young justice ^^

A moment of silence for the greatness that was "Young Justice"...

[potato-pope]

This is a myth with no concrete examples to prove it is true.

Superman / Hulk
Wonder Woman / Sentry
Batman / Captain America
Darkseid / Galactus
Monitor / Uatu
Neron / Mephisto
Flash / Silver Surfer
Zatanna / Scarlet Witch
Green Arrow / Hawkeye

Etc, etc, etc.

If you read JLA/Avengers, which was written by Kurt Busiek Art by George Perez, they both agree and state that Marvel is underpowered and they have a harder time. In DCU JLA are like gods, in Marvel even an actual God Thor is scrutinized. Superman can even us Thor's hammer! (though only when Thor lets him).

If you get into those talks a lot of power levels you should really pick up the trade paper back of it. Couple years old but still holds its own today against the current batch of event books.

[potato-pope]

Currently I'm a marvel guy. Though what got me back into comics was CHAOS Comics, but thankfully i can get my sick humor on with Garth Ennis.

For second "comic publisher" guy status, it would be Top Cow. Seems like I've been picking up everything they put out lately. Plus they have Stjepan Sejic who I would say is the one of the top artist's in the game right now. If you aren't getting any Top Cow books, check out his cover work on "Secret Invasion: Inhumans."

Only DC I'm reading right now is currently the Batman Family (Batman, Detective, Nightwing, Robin, Outsiders, but not Birds of Prey).

[labor_days]

If you read JLA/Avengers, which was written by Kurt Busiek Art by George Perez, they both agree and state that Marvel is underpowered and they have a harder time. In DCU JLA are like gods, in Marvel even an actual God Thor is scrutinized. Superman can even us Thor's hammer! (though only when Thor lets him).

I own JLA/Avengers. Though I would not consider it to be a suitable point of comparison when talking about the scale of DC and Marvel main line characters.

Already said a few pages back the maximum speed the Flash can run is based on the plot. Its mostly irrelevant how much faster the Flash is vis-a-vis Quicksilver, as they both will run as fast as necessary to create drama and excitement. This is true of how much Wonder Woman can bench press in comparison to Thor or rather Superman's heat vision is more destructive than Cyclops' optic blasts.

However, all that being said...if we base the power levels of these characters extraordinary feats on out of continuity tales we get into some really wonky areas. Such as Superman literally living inside the sun, Batman being a dracula, Flash being so fast he exists in all reality as a blur, et cetera.

If you must compare these variations to mainline characters (which we were doing earlier), specify "The Superman of Red Son", "The Wonder Woman of Earth-34", "KC Flash", blah, blah.

Then we can compare Marvel's multiverse counterparts to DC's multiverse counterparts fairly.

(( Also, in JLA/Avengers & DC vs. Marvel the point of the JLA being analogous to gods is based on the idea of DC's heroes being the modern day mythological figures. Whereas Marvel's characters are supposedly more rooted in the "tragic accident" origin. There is not much of a downside to being The Flash unless Gorilla Grodd got you down. Spider-Man, however cool he seems, has a fucked up life.

The real difference in DC/Marvel is that the JLA are seen by the public in the DCU as these sort of gods. In Marvel, Spider-Man is a "menace". Busiek actually makes this point in its most elegant form in JLA/Avengers. And is the most succinct and definitive statement on the two fictional universes. ))

[cam-]

I think the best part of the whole JLA/AVENGERS crossover was (and I'm struggling remembering) in either Peter Davids Captain Marvel, or Peter Milligan's X-Force. I'm pretty sure it was x-force, but anyways...

One of them Peter's used his recap page exclusively to bitch about how Thor got pwned by Superman, it went on for a couple of issues, and was hilarious! I'll have to try and dig those out and reread them. Good times.

[neb]

Also, in JLA/Avengers & DC vs. Marvel the point of the JLA being analogous to gods is based on the idea of DC's heroes being the modern day mythological figures. Whereas Marvel's characters are supposedly more rooted in the "tragic accident" origin. There is not much of a downside to being The Flash unless Gorilla Grodd got you down. Spider-Man, however cool he seems, has a fucked up life.



I think this is an excellent point.

It actually made me think of Justice League Unlimited cartoon where Batman and Orion help the Flash tackle his rogues gallery at the opening of a museum dedicated to the Flashes. There's this great moment where they go to this bar, and the Trickster is sitting there, drinking a soda. The Flash walks up non-chalantly and reminds him that he needs to go turn himself in. Trickster agrees, slurping the last of the drink and walking out of the bar. The glance between Orion and Batman is priceless.

Anyways, my point is that Justice League Unlimited is far superior to any cartoon, save Batman: The Animated Series. :)

[labor_days]

Also, there is a lot of bullshit in JLA/Avengers and Marvel vs. DC.

Superman could not out slug the Son of Odin.

[nuclearman]

I consider myself Marvel as I grew up reading it. I don't limit myself to any these days and have grown a better understanding of DC, Image, Vertigo as I have gotten older.

[gobo]

Now that the March solicits are out for Image, I can definitely say I'm firmly an Image Man.

[cam-]

Also, there is a lot of bullshit in JLA/Avengers and Marvel vs. DC.

Superman could not out slug the Son of Odin.

Which was the thrust of Peter's argument, he's a freakin' GOD!

(which comes across quite nicely in the most recent issue of Mighty, if I do say so myself)

Edit: Mighty Avengers that is, not the Mighty Thor.

[labor_days]

Wonder Woman/Thor is the fairer match up.

Edite: Or Captain Marvel/Thor, for a pure slugfest.

[jmstump]

Wonder Woman/Thor is the fairer match up.

Edite: Or Captain Marvel/Thor, for a pure slugfest.

Yeah I always figured a fight between Thor and Superman would be akin to Superman and Captain Marvel. There is no way Superman would just beat Thor's ass, I mean I would assume Thor is Magic. Isn't all religious stuff magic?

Correction Birds is magic and everything else is science. Maybe the fight would end differently...

[labor_days]

The thing is Supes wouldn't be de-powered by a magical being. He's still as strong and tough, but his invulnerabilities would be less when going aginst such foes.

Thor probably can't out slug Supes. It very well could be a draw if they just boxed. However Thor's lighting bolts are going to hit Superman with maximum impact and Supes' invulnerability would be null.

[labor_days]

I would go so far as to say, Thor coud kill Superman almost by accident.

Hulk vs. Supes is essentialy Doomsday vs. Supes. The outcome depends on who gets tired first.

[paper]

KC Supes can punch divine lightning.

[sarahg42]

I would go so far as to say, Thor coud kill Superman almost by accident.


Especially if you consider Thor's powers magickal. He is sort of allergic and all.

[neb]

I fear Labor's wrath with this comment, but what the hell...

Sentry vs. Superman

In an awesome contest, Superman wins.
In a fist fight, it might be a tie.
In a test of wills, Superman wins.
Stepping out of the house, Superman wins.
Being a giant wuss bag, Sentry wins.

[thenextchampion]

KC Supes can punch divine lightning.

How can you top that?

[racemccloud]

KC Supes can punch divine lightning.

Kansas City Superman can punch divine lightning? I can't even pretend to know what that means.

[paper]

Kansas City Superman can punch divine lightning? I can't even pretend to know what that means.

Yes, Kansas City Superman.

[racemccloud]

Yes, Kansas City Superman.

Arch-nemesis of St. Louis Superman.

[labor_days]

KC Supes can punch divine lightning.
Totes.

Reinforces my point that we have to be specific when talking about the different takes on these characters. You can't just say "Mainline Superman is too powerful" based on Kingdom Come. Because that is not at all mainline Superman. Anymore than we consider Ultimate Thor the same as 616-Thor.

[neb]

Totes.
Anymore than we consider Ultimate Thor the same as 616-Thor.

This is true. 616-Thor may bathe on a more regular basis.

[labor_days]

I'm not really up to speed on the Ultimate Uni, because its shit, but is U. Thor a god or what?

[neb]

I'm not really up to speed on the Ultimate Uni, because its shit, but is U. Thor a god or what?

Yeah, he is, but throughout all of the Ulimates everyone thought he was a loon who derived his power from his hammer. He was a hippy who used his power for environmental causes, and begrudgingly had a relationship with the Ultimates because of its ties to the government.

Ultimates 2 is about Thor and defining his power and where it comes from. It's pretty darn good.

[labor_days]

Yeah, I know all that. I just forgot what happened at the end of Ultimates 2 and if they are sticking to Millar's idea of Thor being a transposed Norse God. When Loeb and Bendis are involved, who knows what the fuck you are going to get.

[neb]

Who bloody knows? That stuff is all getting changed with Ultimatum and with Loeb writing the Ultimates, Thor might be a Hummer driving, grease drinking hillbilly by now.

[thenextchampion]

Who bloody knows? That stuff is all getting changed with Ultimatum and with Loeb writing the Ultimates, Thor might be a Hummer driving, grease drinking hillbilly by now.

*sees sketches for Ultimates 4*

Well.....your not too far off

:) jp

[jmstump]

You know I like the ultimates universe, but Ultimates Vol 3 was terrible. It took forever to come out, they some how managed to make Mad's art look poopie, and most of it didn't make any fucking sense. Loeb has a way of making a book so damn confusing till the very last issue.

[smeeeeee]

i have always been a DC fan. ever since i was a kid i always related to DC characters more and they seem to have better characters as they are truly heros. i always thought of marvel heros has not true heros compared to DC. one big thing that made me DC for life is batman and the batman animated series.

[optimus187prime]

You know I like the ultimates universe, but Ultimates Vol 3 was terrible. It took forever to come out, they some how managed to make Mad's art look poopie, and most of it didn't make any fucking sense. Loeb has a way of making a book so damn confusing till the very last issue.

I have boycotted that series because of what I have seen in passing and heard here. Its really sad though, because the Ultimates 1 and 2 was sooo good. The only thing Loeb writes that I think I will pick up is Cap White.

[jetsfly]

just wondering how many people prefer one or the other.
if there was another post like this i am sorry for not searching it.
also if your up to ot give a reason.

[boom2k2]

I've been a Marvel boy ever since I can remember. I used to pick up as much New Mutants, X-men and Spiderman I can sink my teeth into. But when I got back into comics after highschool, I started reading A LOT of Vertigo. So I guess I'm a DC person, even though the only thing I've read that actually DC is Batman. I still go to Marvel for my caped books, but my nerd shelf is filled with Vertigo. More so than anything else.

[crabcakes]

I have more Vertigo than anything else but none of it is DC universe. My second biggest collection would be Marvel so I put that.

[morwen]

Marvel! I like Wonder Woman and Batman, but I prefer Marvel. X-Men will always be my number one.