Veronica's stiff neck

[freebs]

Hey those are a bummer. I used to get them all the time -the kind where you can't turn your head left or right. Mine never had an obvious cause (like injury). It was always just that I looked this way and aaarrgh! They always went away in a day or 2 at most which makes me think it was more of a pinched nerve or something although it sure felt like a muscle pull. Muscles just don't heal that fast so it couldn't have been the cause. It was also usually if not always on the same side. Anyway the point of all this is that I think it was from the way I slept or what I slept on that was causing it. After buying a new mattress 3 years ago it suddenly stopped. If this sounds like what you experienced look into the sleeping habits. I used to live in fear of mine as they were very painful and I never had a clue as to what would set them off(10-15 episodes per year).

[tokenuser]

A chiropractor can be your best friend ... especially if you travel a lot.

[ajzzz]

Chiropractors, that's entering a world of quackery. Make sure you read Science and Chiropractic (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=59) from Science-Based Medicine. Ask a doctor for advice, and be very wary of the claims made by chiropractors.

[tokenuser]

Chiropractors, that's entering a world of quackery. Make sure you read Science and Chiropractic (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=59) from Science-Based Medicine. Ask a doctor for advice, and be very wary of the claims made by chiropractors.Would you prefer that I refer to them as a Sports Medicine Specialist?

Yeah - that blog makes them sound like quacks. That is not the case.

As someone that has suffered from a pelvis break in 3 places, and a compression fracture of the T11-12 verts, you might say that my spine is a mess.

Periodically the nerves in my back get pinched because of these injuries (that happened 20 years ago). I could go and see a "doctor" and get pain killers and muscle relaxants ... or I could go to a chiropractor, have my spine loosened, then manipulated to realign the verts, and relieve the pressure on the nerves for far more rapid and permanent relief.

When a blog is referring to work done over 100 years ago as being the epitome of chiropractic practice and ridiculing it ... they should look at modern medicine as well. Those stupid old wives putting spider webs on wounds or drinking willow bark tea. Freakin' snake oil merchants. Umm. No ... spiderwebs have a penicillin like compound in them that acts as an antibiotic, and willow bark tea is basically aspirin.

I go to sports medicine specialists. Of the two I have used in the US, one (west Coast) is the injury specialist for a MLB and a NHL team (I used to run into players in the waiting room all the time), the other (East Coast) does work for two highly ranked local College Basketball teams.

Doctors treat symptoms, but a chiropractor will treat the root cause. Of course, I am not going to go see him about kidney stones (you see an internal medicine specialist - a urologist - for that), but I will see him for muscle or bone issues (not breaks - there are doctors that set bones, but they are not the same people as the ones that then get everything put back in place afterwards).

[murphy1d]

Who do you call when you have ghosts that need busting?

[veronicazilla]

I'm doing a lot better today, I actually went to a message therapist yesterday and she did some pressure point stuff. Made a big difference! A very happy ending, for sure.




(sorry, I had to....)

[fee]

Good to hear you are doing better!

[ajzzz]

Would you prefer that I refer to them as a Sports Medicine Specialist?

For sports injuries I imagine they'd be perfect. It's not good to advise people to see a chiropractor if they don't know anything about them. They should definitely ask their doctor about it, and read the Science-Based Medicine blog that's run and written by medical doctors. If they go to the wrong Chiropractor they could be screwed. (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=152#more-152) Orthopedic physical therapists are specialists on the musculoskeletal system. Neck and back pain can be caused by other factors, for example you may need to see a neurologist, specialists on the nervous system. If you had read the article it's also sometimes suitable to see a chiropractor to perform services like manipulation and mobilization:

Click on this link for an excellent article by a chiropractor (http://www.chirobase.org/07Strategy/goodchiro.html) describing what a rational chiropractor can do for you and offering tips on how to choose a chiropractor. There is also a wealth of information on the Chirobase website.

Yeah - that blog makes them sound like quacks. That is not the case.

I imagine the person that writes for the blog has researched a lot more and for a lot longer than you have on the subject. There's plenty of quack chiropractors out there.

Unfortunately the majority of chiropractors still believe the subluxation myth. Many of them aspire to be family doctors, discourage immunizations, and think they can help patients with somatovisceral problems – everything from ear infections to stomach ulcers. Some of them want to adjust your baby’s spine in the delivery room and sign you up for lifetime care. A large percentage of them practice applied kinesiology, a bogus muscle testing technique relying on the ideomotor illusion. If a new quackery comes along, you can be sure chiropractors will be among the first to jump on the bandwagon. And once in a while a patient dies of a stroke after a chiropractor applies a rapid twisting thrust to his neck and tears his vertebral artery.

When a blog is referring to work done over 100 years ago as being the epitome of chiropractic practice and ridiculing it ...

It does no such thing, in the first paragraph on why Chiropratry is not science it mentioned who invented it and when. I guess you know a lot about what progress has been made and the scientific research into Chiropractry.

Chiropractic keeps adding new techniques (over 200 now) but never discards one. As far as I’ve been able to determine, chiropractic has never discarded anything except “nerve tracing,” the palpation of nerves unknown to anatomy. Chiropractic tries to “do” science, but even its best journals publish articles of poor quality, and in over 100 years it has made precious little progress in understanding what actually happens when they “pop” a back, which techniques are better than others, or how to predict who is likely to benefit.

Read the article.

[tokenuser]

Have you ever been to a chiropractor?

They seem to have a mediocre reputation at best in the US, largely at the hands of "MD's" who seem to be "mildly annoyed" with losing business to these "quacks".

In many other parts of the world (and I will specifically refer to Australia here), Chiropractors are held in the same regard as an MD, and will generally be found at a Sports Medicine Clinic. Another service these clinics offer is often massage therapy. You'll notice that Veronica mentined that this is what sorted her out.

Like all professionals, you need to do your research to find a good one. I have been to doctors that are only interested in prescribing whatever the pharma reps are pushing on them. The US health care system is so structured that the insurance industry has been prevalent in constructing a fear of "alternate" medicine, as it cuts into thier bottom line.

The blog you refer to is run by two notable skeptics. Yes, do your research. Weigh the good and bad, and look at the sources. These guys have a vested interest in furthering their community. Most doctors do.

As for my research into chiropracty? It was out of necessity for non-drug related treatment for spinal injury. What was your reason for dismissing it?

BTW - I prefer my information peer reviewed if at all possible (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17693331), rather than from random blogs.

[murphy1d]

I'm doing a lot better today, I actually went to a message therapist yesterday and she did some pressure point stuff. Made a big difference! A very happy ending, for sure.




(sorry, I had to....)

(standing ovation) CLAP, CLAP, CLAP!!!!!!:D

[davmoo]

I imagine the person that writes for the blog has researched a lot more and for a lot longer than you have on the subject. There's plenty of quack chiropractors out there.

There are also plenty of MD quacks, car mechanic quacks, computer repair quacks, etc and so on. Every occupation has its own set of quacks, no exceptions. And just because a field has some quacks does not necessarily and automatically make all practitioners of that occupation quacks.

I'd also add that, contrary to what most bloggers seem to think, merely writing an article for a blog does not make one an expert. I can research nuclear engineering and that certainly does not make me an expert. All it means is he and I can use Google.

Finally, I do occasionally see a chiropractor myself. Know who recommended I start seeing him? My medical doctor. When it comes to my health, my GP is God...if I didn't trust her completely, she wouldn't be my doctor. Her recommendation is good enough for me and all I need.

[veronicazilla]

(standing ovation) CLAP, CLAP, CLAP!!!!!!:D

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week, folks! Remember to tip your waitresses!

[tokenuser]

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week, folks! Remember to tip your waitresses!BTW - the veal was great.

[computoman]

She would probably better of going to a massage therapist or a partner who has a lot of gentle caressing experience.

[ajzzz]

There are also plenty of MD quacks, car mechanic quacks, computer repair quacks, etc and so on. Every occupation has its own set of quacks, no exceptions. And just because a field has some quacks does not necessarily and automatically make all practitioners of that occupation quacks.

Who said that all chiropractors were quacks? Chiropractors do not practice modern medicine, i.e. science (evidence based), they're not controlled by this requirement for supportive science on their claims. They remain outside of medical science, they do not contribute to science. Yes, there are quacks in every profession, yet that does not make them all equal. You shouldn't expect a chiropractor to treat based on evidence, but you should expect your doctor to, it's implied by their title and license.

I'd also add that, contrary to what most bloggers seem to think, merely writing an article for a blog does not make one an expert. I can research nuclear engineering and that certainly does not make me an expert. All it means is he and I can use Google.

Who said expert? This is not an appeal to authority, read the article, make of it what you will. A job that involves medicine, and writing numerous columns on science and alternative medicine, for many years at least means that the person has actually researched the subject. Instead of rejecting it without reading it because you went to see a chiropractor a few times and feel the need to rationalize the money you spent.

Finally, I do occasionally see a chiropractor myself. Know who recommended I start seeing him? My medical doctor. When it comes to my health, my GP is God...if I didn't trust her completely, she wouldn't be my doctor. Her recommendation is good enough for me and all I need.

The article I recommended suggests to ask your doctor about it and links to an article that describes best practice in finding a chiropractor. I have suggested asking your GP in my previous two posts on the subject, I don't see what problem you would have with that.

[bigshotprof]

I'm doing a lot better today, I actually went to a message therapist yesterday and she did some pressure point stuff. Made a big difference! A very happy ending, for sure.




(sorry, I had to....)

Message therapist . . . hee . . . hee. My neck feels better and my plosives have improved.

[pianoplayer88key]

She would probably better of going to a massage therapist or a partner who has a lot of gentle caressing experience.

Dr. Block..... Paging Dr. R. Block.... your patient is ready to see you now in room #1337. Paging R. Block, LAc DC MPH RN DPT MD DO.... (ok what did I leave out :P)

[tokenuser]

Who said that all chiropractors were quacks?
I think that was implied by you.

Chiropractors, that's entering a world of quackery.

Chiropractors do not practice modern medicine, i.e. science (evidence based), they're not controlled by this requirement for supportive science on their claims. They remain outside of medical science, they do not contribute to science.You do realise that MDs do not practice "modern medicine" either right? Their diagnostic abilities have improved, but so too have those used by Chiropractors. A good chiropractor will only commence treatment after xrays, ultrasounds, and other diagnostic tools are used. These are the same tools used by "modern medicine".

For an area that does not contribute to science, I see over 4000 articles in Pubmed just by typing in the word "chiropractic". Pubmed is a repository of peer reviewed articles maintained by the U.S. National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health - www.pubmed.org ... you will get redirected to a NIH hosted site. My wife (as a professor of informatics) is a reviewer of NIH grants and articles that appear in journals indexed in Pubmed (specifically AMIA - the American Medical Informatics Association). The reason I bring this up is that the key here is PEER reviewed articles are the highest form of reference material ... this is not a blog entry. The review process is rigorous.

Yes, there are quacks in every profession, yet that does not make them all equal. You shouldn't expect a chiropractor to treat based on evidence, but you should expect your doctor to, it's implied by their title and license.Actually, you SHOULD expect a chiropractor to treat based on evidence - its implied by their title and license.

Who said expert? This is not an appeal to authority, read the article, make of it what you will. A job that involves medicine, and writing numerous columns on science and alternative medicine, for many years at least means that the person has actually researched the subject. Instead of rejecting it without reading it because you went to see a chiropractor a few times and feel the need to rationalize the money you spent.There is no need to rationalise money I spent seeing a chiropractor. It was money well spent that gave great relief to my lower back injuries.

But you are setting up an ad hominem argument, and I will will appeal to authority (once again), by referring you to the peer reviewed body of literature, rather than an op-ed blog.

The article I recommended suggests to ask your doctor about it and links to an article that describes best practice in finding a chiropractor. I have suggested asking your GP in my previous two posts on the subject, I don't see what problem you would have with that.The reference to seeing a doctor about it is good advice. I was referred by a doctor to a sports medicine clinic for physiotheraphy and chiropractic care after a parachuting accident.

Rather than skepticism, you seem to see the field of chiropractic care as a personal afront. What do you have against chiros?

[ajzzz]

I think that was implied by you.

Bullshit. I asked people to see a doctor, and linked to an article that links to an article on how to choose chiropractors. Are you seriously going to maintain that nonsense?

You do realise that MDs do not practice "modern medicine" either right?

Doctors of medicine practice medicine, based on evidence, that separates "modern medicine" from "alternative", "complimentary", and other non-evidence based medicine.

Actually, you SHOULD expect a chiropractor to treat based on evidence - its implied by their title and license.

Then you wouldn't expect the largest Chiropratic association in America, the ACA, would be proponents of chiropractic subluxation complex?

http://chiroandosteo.com/content/13/1/17

...a 1995 survey of U.S. chiropractors found that about a third believed there was no scientific proof that immunization prevents disease.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/105/4/e43

For an area that does not contribute to science, I see over 4000 articles in Pubmed just by typing in the word "chiropractic".

There are 40135 if you search for the word "prayer". :eek: OHMYGOSH I better start praying now! Oh wait, I guess I should read some of them first. It actually matters what's in the studies. Neurology? 162821. Orthopedic? 121501. Osteopathy? 363643.

Chiropractors do use treatments that many medical disciplines use (e.g. phyios, physiatrists, and doctors of osteopathy) that are supported by science, manipulation (42344 hits) and mobilization (3620425 hits).

"Subluxation complex" gets 15 hits, and it really does matter what's in them...

The reason I bring this up is that the key here is PEER reviewed articles are the highest form of reference material ... this is not a blog entry. The review process is rigorous.

The methodology is more important, large sample, a double-blind, controlled trial, is better than a prelimary non-controlled small sample trial. Even when a study is published in a peer reviewed journal it should and is repeated, improved upon, and challenged.

Peer review is a rigorous process, it's very valuable, but you have to understand what it is. Peer reviewers are anonymous to the public. It is not designed to detect fraud so the data should be repeated by independents. Richard Sternberg was able to get an article in support of Intelligent Design published as an editor of a peer-reviewed journal by peer reviewing it himself, with three others either connected to himself or to the author of the article, who Sternberg was also connected to.

[gta_bmx]

A DO is sort of like a combination MD/chiropractor. Our family doctor is a DO -- Osteopathic Physician. DO's are fully licensed medical doctors just like an MD and can specialize in family medicine, orthopedic surgery, internal medicine, surgery, cardiology, etc.. DO's go to Osteopathic medical schools and have to study the same things an MD does and pass the same licensing exams. But a DO goes farther in that they treat the patient in a more holistic manner and recognize the importance of diet and other factors. And they are trained in chiropractic/spinal cord/nerve/ stuff.

My wife had severe back and neck pain, so the family DO adjusted her, and the pain went right away. I think he adjusts her like once a year. A normal MD would probably just tell her to take Tylenol (which is bad for you if taken a lot) or prescribe a narcotic.

I would never go back to an MD after my experience with a DO. The surgeon who fixed my umbilical hernia was a DO also. DO's are less common out on the west coast though.

[veronicazilla]

I love that there are two completely disparate conversations going on in this thread right now.

[masherscf]

I love that there are two completely disparate conversations going on in this thread right now.

It happens sometimes.

[murphy1d]

I love that there are two completely disparate conversations going on in this thread right now.

The Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but me and Pippi Longstocking... I mean, what would the children look like? NARF!

[tokenuser]

Peer review is a rigorous process, it's very valuable, but you have to understand what it is. Peer reviewers are anonymous to the public. It is not designed to detect fraud so the data should be repeated by independents. Richard Sternberg was able to get an article in support of Intelligent Design published as an editor of a peer-reviewed journal by peer reviewing it himself, with three others either connected to himself or to the author of the article, who Sternberg was also connected to.Peer reviews are anonymous to the public. They are also anonymous to the authors, and are selected by the editors or journals as being leading experts in their fields.

A good reviewer will see the ability to repeat an experiment.
A good scientist will look for the data that supports the findings.

The Richard Sternberg incident resulted in an editorial backlash that derided the publication of the article as being in violation of the editorial process.

The notion that chiropractors support the anti-vaccination movement is based on a study where 178 of the 70,000. Is the opinion of 178 statistically significant? For a survey of that many people, 350 would have been better.

Now, you are talking about a field that is specifically non-drug and non-surgical in nature, so, to be honest, having a higher incidence of chiros against vaccinations is not surprising, but lets me share this with you ....

http://www.chiroweb.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=18111

A team of investigators at the University of Michigan attempted to assess how members of the medical profession (and the parents of their pediatric patients) feel about vaccines, by mailing a survey to a national random sample of 750 pediatricians and 750 family practice physicians. The survey was designed to address parental concerns about vaccine safety, how often primary care physicians do not recommend vaccines, and the impact of recent vaccine problems on physicians and parents. The results of the survey, presented at the joint meeting of the Pediatric Academic Societies and the American Academy of Pediatrics in Baltimore, Maryland this past April [2001], show that many parents - and even some physicians - are becoming increasingly concerned about the safety of childhood vaccinations.

<snip>

Of the 743 practitioners who administered childhood vaccinations, 185 - nearly 25 percent - either occasionally or routinely did not recommend one or more vaccines. Family physicians were nearly three times as likely to not recommend a vaccine as pediatricians. These are the MDs you are holding in such high regard.

Please, take the vaccination issue off the table. It is a furphy.

FWIW - I am fully immunized. I have also had adult boosters. Indeed for my greencard submission I had to show proof of them.

If you are responsible for your health care, you would take what you read in forums such as these where two people are bickering over different sides of the argument and seek professional advice from an expert. I am not an expert, but I have satisfied my own information need on the subject. A rational adult would do the same.

[davmoo]

I love that there are two completely disparate conversations going on in this thread right now.

There are? I thought it was those damned voices in my head again...

[fee]

I love that there are two completely disparate conversations going on in this thread right now.

That's why I love forums!

[skyz]

A chiropractor can be your best friend ... especially if you travel a lot.

my chiropractors are a married couple

they are amongst the best people i have ever met

they never seem stressed or worried ever and i've known them for years

[IanPR]

The only downside to a chiropractor is if there is a cholesterol buildup in your carotid artery, and during adjusting your neck, a piece breaks off and causes a stroke.

Other than that, chiropractors are medically educated. In university they learn about science and biology. They are not some dumbasses that study Wiccian mythology and witchcraft or anything. They are fucking doctors.

[ajzzz]

These are the MDs you are holding in such high regard.

I don't know why you take this tone, asking people to seek medical advice from their doctor doesn't mean that I have elevated them to demi-god status. They are at least trained, and it's implied in their license and profession that they will be giving you evidence-based medical advice.

It is troubling that there are physicians not recommending vaccines. Not as troubling as 34% of physicians in the US agreeing more with Intelligent Design than evolution. That's more than don't occasionally recommended one or more vaccinations, which rely on evolutionary theory, which suggests that some of them don't even know what it is.

http://www.hcdi.net/News/PressRelease.cfm?ID=93

...chiropractors are medically educated.

This does not mean they have the same education as Doctors of Medicine or equivalent. Alternative medicine, not evidence-based medicine. As the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) puts it:

The list of what is considered to be CAM changes continually, as those therapies that are proven to be safe and effective become adopted into conventional health care and as new approaches to health care emerge.

If its efficacy and safety is scientifically supported it ceases to be alternative medicine.

[bigshotprof]

There are? I thought it was those damned voices in my head again...

You're right. There are Three conversations going on at once.

[tokenuser]

I don't know why you take this tone, asking people to seek medical advice from their doctor doesn't mean that I have elevated them to demi-god status. They are at least trained, and it's implied in their license and profession that they will be giving you evidence-based medical advice.The reason for the tone is that the attitude in the profession that you are deriding is on par with the attitudes of those in the profession that you are declaring as "modern medicine".

Seriously though ... would you seek medical advice for your toddler from a chiropractor that you (theoretically) visit, or from the toddler's pediatrician?

The parent that is convinced of the dangers of vaccination would have had doubts in their mind already and been looking for validation.

[frankiethewaffle]

Veronica, I do sympathize with the neck thing. I used to get them stiff necks at your age. 20-25? I got them till I broke my neck at 26.

Then, I did go to a chiropractor with great results. I Know chiropractors get a bad rap. I depend on them now. It isn't a bad practice. It is really skeletal manipulation. It works!

In my pro wrestling days, I had gotten a broken neck. Nothing ever treated, but I knew the treatment I needed. I went to a chiropractor that was the only relief from the pain. Only the chiropractic treatment worked. It took 8 weeks, but the pain did go away. It was so good that I didn't even know I broke my neck till years later, when I started losing feeling in my legs. Traction helps now.

Bottom line Veronica, don't mess with your neck. Make sure your symptoms are as innocent as you hope.

[murphy1d]

The Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but this time, you put the trousers on the chimp. NARF!:D

[md2389]

There are? I thought it was those damned voices in my head again...

"Use the force Luke!"

[bigshotprof]

The Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but this time, you put the trousers on the chimp. NARF!:D

The Brain: Pinky, re you pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky; Yes, Brain. why do you think I made martinis?