Battlestar Galactica 4:11 discussion SPOILERS

[ariastar]

Who the hell saw this coming? I thought Starbuck being a Cylon was to obvious to be, so was surprised when it turned out she died. But Cylons are reborn without what they were wearing before. Then Dee shooting herself, and ELLEN being a Cylon?! I want to know why Dee did that (btw, that much blood doesn't run out of the head, I've seen that happen and it just doesn't happen like that). I'm wondering if she's not a sleeper model too. It seems there are more Cylons than 12, so is she a sleeper? Remember Boomer shot Adama befre realizing she was a Cylon. Why were the five we know about the five to be reborn thousands of years later out of a whole planet of Cylons?

[andy-joe]

I still suspect some sort of time-distortion issue. Like they are the ones that directly caused the nuclear war.
I always suspected Cara as a cylon, but now I'm not so sure. It could be something like Cara is the first hybrid or something that pre-dates the cylons. shes connected to them in some deep and profound way, but not one of them.

I've got mixed feelings about the whole Ellen thing, in a way they build this out to be a big reveal that one of the cast is a cylon, and no its just a minor character that is dead, a slight let down, although I realize there will be some repercussions to this revelation.

I think also that the humans this close to Earth is somehow messing with their brains, hence the erratic behavior, another side-effect to the time-distortion.
its all my guess.

andy

[ariastar]

I think you may be onto something with the time-warp. The humans created the Cylons about 50 years before they were attacked, yet the planet was nuked 2,000 years before, so 1,946 years (counting the four since they were nuked themselves) before they created the Cylons.

There is something "fundamentally different" about the final five, according to Moore, and that is probably that they were from the original Cylon race, somehow predating Cylons being created.

I do think Cara is a Cylon. She's the harbinger, so may not be considered one of the 12 models.

I think Ellen being a Cylon was good. She was collaborating with them without knowing she was one, and Sol killed her for collaborating with them even though she was collaborating with him too without their knowing. I wouldn't have suspected her. So this opens a whole new can of worms.

[armadeon]

I'm pretty positive Starbuck's not a Cylon. Ron Moore said that the final Cylon was not in the last supper picture (which she's in,) and having more than the 12 seems like a cop out. I agree that it's probably some timewarp thing going on that she gets sent back in time.

[joeyrock]

Well didn't Starbuck fail into the eye of Jupiter? Maybe the eye is a worm-hole... and the trail of clues for the journey to earth is actually deliberate and the universe's anomalies they encounter along the way cause them to jump to the future.
The "earth" they have just encountered was actually the "earth" they make for themselves. The Final 5 are actually descendants of the current "galacticans" sent from the future. They were sent back to stop the events occurring on new earth... by creating a truce between the humans and cylons.
The 5 lead them to their potential future, to show them what they must avoid (... the merry-go-round loop of nuking each other). Now they've seen it, the loop has been broken and Starbuck has the final clue to find their way back to their own time.

hmmmm some things are a bit fuzzy, but I think I'm on to something.

Maybe it's not the future, but an alternate reality.. which serves the same purpose but also avoids paradox problems. Starbuck is still alive because she and her paralell switched or were duplicated... Giving her a link to the other universe and knowledge of Earth. The 5 were resurrected between dimensions as a way of escape or to put an end to the loop.

Grrrrr :confused: ....maybe I'll stop watching it till it's all over. Then I can just go straight from episode to episode without the need to think about it.

I think I've come to one and one conclusion only... Lost is going to really going to be a mind fuck when it starts to come to an end... because Galatica is simple by comparison. :p

[iccanui]

I think BSG more then any other example will be what i point people to when i want to explain what " jumping the shark" means. Was so good up till the end. But then again, im not a big drama person, i only have a certain tolerance for it and the show went from a good sci fi universe with battles and great characters to support the main story, to a drama based almost solely the characters. Thats where i think it lost it. I think they had a good idea for the story and it was engrossing and interesting and they got to a point where they went " umm where is this story going " and they never found that and just dove into the characters to try to ride it out.

Well thats where it lost me personally anyway.

Was a good run while it lasted though, thats for sure.


BTW, Dee killing herself. She did it cause she lost all hope. It seems obvious to me. She was in the cockpit going " dont give up, dont give up", freaking out a bit on the way back from earth. She went out with apollo had a nice time, then went back to her locker and remembered all the good that was and how shit everything was now and... "Bullet to the brainpan, squish" to quote River. She was the one proping apollo up in that last scene, giving so much kindness till she had nothing left. I think its a reflection of how hard it can be to be the one with a smile and kind words all the time in the face of adversity.

[kilroyperrywinkle]

To be honest we can talk about one dimensional reasons why Dee did what she did but I think the veil of fiction is just too thin. The simple truth is:

They ran out of material with her.

That's it. Her character had nothing left. She was barely in any of shows previous, and the writers probably wanted to make the most of the screen time they had left so bye-bye Dee. It's so absurdly clear even to them why they did it that they don't even try to write a reason. They just leave it out there. Why bother? Its more dramatic if its like this, and it saves them tons of screen time and effort in trying to figure out a reason she would do it.

So obvious that no matter what fake scenario I hear people proposing on forums and stuff seems hollow. The problem I have with writers of shows like this (I loved this episode though) is that they're human. They run out of steam. They did with Callie and out the airlock she goes, and now they did it with Dee and boom out she goes. Its so transparent it takes me out of the story and kind of ruins the moment.

The whole "memories" from the past thing is interesting. But I find the lack of rules (Jeff Writing 101) a bit bothersome. I'm half expecting one of them to grow wings and fly, or start shooting lasers from their eyes. There's no rules! How are they different? How can they be different? If humans created Cylons, then how can they be different? Did different humans make them? The whole organic robot angle seemed weak 4 years ago and adding timey-wimey circle future=past whatever to it makes it seem super weak. I dunno... there's gotta be some clear explanation about that or the whole story just seems like writing masturbation.

How close to human can they be and still be robots? I mean if they can reproduce, die, love, hate, bleed... then the whole Cylon/Human thing is kind of weak writing? Humans kill other humans. Why not just make them human?

Ramble ramble ramble... I like BSG. I just wish the writing wasn't so transparent.

[fade2gray]

I agree that Dee's death seemed pretty convenient writing-wise. Near the end of last season/mid-season-thing the writers' confusion about what to do with her was almost palpable.

As for Earth being nuked, I'm still convinced it's not actually Earth. I don't remember there being any clear sign, other than Cara's blipping signal, that it actually was Earth. Plus, *Decades old spoiler warning* the original series ended with the BSG finding a planet that they were absolutely convinced was Earth in the middle of a massive global war. They helped end the war only to learn that it wasn't actually Earth and off they went again. I'm still waiting for an homage to the final scene in that episode where they picked up a transmission of Armstrong's Moon landing.

[ariastar]

I'm pretty positive Starbuck's not a Cylon. Ron Moore said that the final Cylon was not in the last supper picture (which she's in,) and having more than the 12 seems like a cop out. I agree that it's probably some timewarp thing going on that she gets sent back in time.

However we now have a planet that was populated entirely by Cylons almost 1,950 years before the Colonials created the Centurions that, as far as we know, somehow became the hybrid Cylons. There could have been 12 models that stemmed from that.

[ariastar]

Well didn't Starbuck fail into the eye of Jupiter? Maybe the eye is a worm-hole... and the trail of clues for the journey to earth is actually deliberate and the universe's anomalies they encounter along the way cause them to jump to the future.
The "earth" they have just encountered was actually the "earth" they make for themselves. The Final 5 are actually descendants of the current "galacticans" sent from the future. They were sent back to stop the events occurring on new earth... by creating a truce between the humans and cylons.
The 5 lead them to their potential future, to show them what they must avoid (... the merry-go-round loop of nuking each other). Now they've seen it, the loop has been broken and Starbuck has the final clue to find their way back to their own time.

hmmmm some things are a bit fuzzy, but I think I'm on to something.

Maybe it's not the future, but an alternate reality.. which serves the same purpose but also avoids paradox problems. Starbuck is still alive because she and her paralell switched or were duplicated... Giving her a link to the other universe and knowledge of Earth. The 5 were resurrected between dimensions as a way of escape or to put an end to the loop.

Grrrrr :confused: ....maybe I'll stop watching it till it's all over. Then I can just go straight from episode to episode without the need to think about it.

I think I've come to one and one conclusion only... Lost is going to really going to be a mind fuck when it starts to come to an end... because Galatica is simple by comparison. :p

You now, I think you're onto something here.

[forbizzle]

I don't buy the writing excuse. Mostly because this show is over this season anyways, and she's not a major character. Also, the writers have been more than willing to put even major characters out of the spotlight for long periods of time.

It's not like she got caught drunk driving on the set of Lost.

[lavahot]

The last cylon is humanity in general. It is the original race of being which evolved into the original cylon race. The only survivors of the cylon race were the last four, who created the new cylon race after the cylons rebelled, then incorporated themselves into society which they themselves created after the annihilation of their race. This is what they mean by "this has all happened before, and it will happen again" it is the inevitability of this system of people and machines to repeat similar events over and over again.

[rokov]

I completely understand why Dee killed herself and I don't think it had anything to do with convenience or a lack of material. Like iccanui said, she simply ran out of hope. She was probably already planning to do it and when Lee asked her out it was the perfect opportunity to have one last moment of happiness. That's why she was propping him up so much, she still loved him and knew that he would have to carry on so she wanted to give him everything she had left.

As far as the rest of the episode goes, I was a little disappointed. The whole time warp/Kara/Ellen/13th tribe were Cylons thing was way too Lost for BSG. The only major questions BSG ever asked were 'are they going to make it to earth?' and 'who's a Cylon?', but now they know that they don't have much of a story left and they've answered both questions so they're trying to turn it into as big of a mindfuck as they possibly can.

[thebigl]

I think some of you are being slightly too harsh on it. I thought it was a tremendous come-back episode, that covered SO much, just in the first 22 minutes! Heartbreaking parts, awesome acting all round, as per usual, great cinematography, and interesting reveals.

I think saying the final cylon was Ellen, is even braver and stronger, than saying is was Kara or Gaius. Dee's death was handled excellently, in my opinion.

For every question it proposed, i think it answered 2. I actually have high hopes for the end of BSG, whereas, before this episode, i was really scared its conclusions wouldn't be logical.

[masherscf]

Dee's suicide is not deep.

Dee shot herself because she didn't see a reason to live. Earth was lost and the man she loved didn't love her the same way.

The writers needed an event like this to bring depression home. Although Dee is one of my favorite characters, her story was basically over.

[armadeon]

Dee's suicide is not deep.

Dee shot herself because she didn't see a reason to live. Earth was lost and the man she loved didn't love her the same way.

The writers needed an event like this to bring depression home. Although Dee is one of my favorite characters, her story was basically over.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html

That's basically what Ron Moore said. They just needed someone to kill themselves, and Dee just happened to get the luck of the draw.

[tokenuser]

I think the Starbuck on the planet thing is a time warp thing. The dead Kara is a future Kara, not the present one. As the "harbinger" she was a sign of things to come ... the destruction of the cyclon race perhaps?

Looking forward to the next 9 weeks. Lets see how Moore wraps this puppy up :)

[bradschl]

So, I read this very extensive article today (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html) with some creative insight into how BSG was written, and my biggest fears were confirmed.

Basically it seems like they very much created a lot of mysteries without answers, then just made up answers as needed.

[johnnysix]

So, I read this very extensive article today (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html) with some creative insight into how BSG was written, and my biggest fears were confirmed.

Basically it seems like they very much created a lot of mysteries without answers, then just made up answers as needed.

I would rather hear that from the show's creator than have the show dredge up a character or plot point from 4 seasons ago to give the impression "it's been planned from the start". As long as the show maintains it's high quality and continues to make brave story decisions I'm happy. I'm in it for the ride.

I would argue that the answers to these questions would be satisfying or not regardless, the creators have simply allowed us to "peek behind the curtain".

[forbizzle]

So, I read this very extensive article today (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html) with some creative insight into how BSG was written, and my biggest fears were confirmed.

Basically it seems like they very much created a lot of mysteries without answers, then just made up answers as needed.A lot of writers will sketch out the basic arc of a story, and have general themes they want to express rather than procedurally run through the script from start to end. Just because they wrote in certain details later in the cycle, doesn't mean that they are just flying by the seat of their pants.

And re: Dee, it doesn't sound like they just pulled a name out of the hat. She fit the purpose, and it was probably one of the only characters that could have generated the response it did in a believable way. Would you care if Gaeta killed himself?

[crabcakes]

*Possible spolier?

As someone who has only seen 3 or 4 episodes, including the last one, I can provide a different perspective from people who have followed the show for years... They are ALL Cylons! Just different types! Oh God, they have been living a lie!

[pl8to]

I'm not that concerned that this writing group doesn't have answers made up yet - it's a science fiction show, and they've clearly shown they're willing to make up sci fi answers (I mean, we have a dead Starbuck and a live one, something is obviously not jiving here).

However, my concern is that the sci fi explanations are starting to really erode the writers ability to tell a story with some meaning behind it. In the earlier seasons the best episodes were ones where the war between the cylons and humans was used to examine issues of war, torture, politics and human emotions. Once we start heading into "explanation time", I don't think their writing is as good. I'm nervous that this series is not going to end on a cohesive note.