Drobo alternatives?

[r333vision3]

First off I'm poor & cheap.
I want a storage device that has:
1) Data redundancy
2) Add/Remove mixed sized HD
3) Maximizing usable space.
4) Cheap (by my standards)


[Drobo]
fits all my desired features
but its not cheap being $450 barebone.

[Software-Raid5]
Cheap to build & redundant. Can be built under $100 barebone.
But all HD need to be the same size. Can't mix match.
(technically you can mix match, but some capacity lost)

[HP MediaSmart/WHS]
Allows mixed size HD as one big storage pool
But Data redundancy is basically Raid1 and not cheap barebone.


Any better alternatives to the Drobo?
Ideally a open source software implementation of Drobo BeyondRAID technology would be awesome.

[computoman]

if you have ever used or played the drobo calculator on the drobo web site about using different disk drive sizes, you may find it is not what it is all cracked up to be. I know we played with the calculator and were severly disappointed. Disks are so cheap now you might as well get them all the same size. The media smart is not really a raid and they have their own strange disk format. At least with a raid drive it should be able to recover data more easily than a media smart. I do know that the media smart supposedly had a major upgrade to fix issues and they dropped the price only a fraction. Of the people who I personally know who have used the original mediasmart only comment about it with expletives. One thing you did not take in consideration on your evaluation is that linux box with raid can do a lot more than be just a file and or media server, Only now are the nas's on the market trying to finally do what an average linux file server can do. One big example is that a linux server can also be a pvr, where to my knowledge a mediasmart and the drobo can not. if you get a mediasmart or the drobo you will be locked into their system. No third party add cards are available. All upgrades with be more expensive than the regular linux box. With a linux box you are definately not limited to just twenty users. if you have to have a turn key nas, there is better equipment on the market that make the drobo and mediasmart look like toys. http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/ is a good place to start looking. one last though if you back up files to plastive media regularly, most cases a raid is not necessary for personal non-business use.

[r333vision3]

I been thinking for the price of a barebone(no HD) HPmediasmart/Drobo I could have built a linux software raid5 system with 4x1TB HDs

I have eyed software raid linux. Its just the HPmediasmart/Drobo make adding/removing HD look so painlessly simple. Added bonus of mix HD size. With raid5 I have to buy all 4 HD to expand. Also being a uber noob with linux I'm not so confident in knowing how to do it or troubleshoot.

If there was a complete guide for noobs on
-Setting up linux software raid5 from start to finish
-Adding/removing HD
-Recovering from failed HD
-upgrading OS
-troubleshooting

I'll be more inclined to attempt it given it's drawback of not being able to mismatch hd

[computoman]

freenas is a snap to use. I have not used openfiler, but it is supposed to be much better now. Hak5 promised a review of openfiler. you can get hotswappable bays for a regular desktop/server fairly cheap and still come out way ahead of buying a one use only non upgradeable box. I think I priced them at under 25 dollars a piece. If you get all brand new equipment, you should not have to deal with the drives for a long time. My nas is an ancient k2-500 clone with several drives. I think I have replaced maybe one drive in all the time I have used it.

[r333vision3]

How easy is it in FreeNAS to Upgrade, Add, Remove and Recover HDs in a Raid5 config?

[dark_shroud]

How easy is it in FreeNAS to Upgrade, Add, Remove and Recover HDs in a Raid5 config?

http://revision3.com/systm/freenas/ <-Watch.

Ok question time, do you have a system that you can convert or gut for this project? You can buy External HD trays cheap now or a hot swap unit for under $100.

So lets look at some parts:


Standard Mobile Rack (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817121172)
Internal hot swap rack (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817990001)
Internal hot swap rack raid-3 bay (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817990003)
Internal hot swap rack raid-4 bay (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817990004)
System Case if needed (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147068)
Power Supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817339001)

[computoman]

How easy is it in FreeNAS to Upgrade, Add, Remove and Recover HDs in a Raid5 config?

A company that deals with frebsd for a living is behind freenas. They are not going anywhere for the time being. The Freenas os is on its own separate partition, so upgrading or even reinstallation is not that critical. Even with raid, You normally have the os on a separate partition or drive. You can even have freenas boot from a cd or thumb drive. Ironically most nas's are becomeing linux boxes. Why pay the premium, when you just build your own.

[xcorvis]

Look into the ReadyNAS line from Netgear. I've used some from before they got bought by Netgear, but they're pretty solid.

[computoman]

ReadyNAS™ NV+ 4-Bay Gigabit Desktop Network Storage (No Disk) $619 for a system with no drives??????

http://www.netgear.com/Products/Storage/ReadyNASNVPlus.aspx

[computoman]

http://revision3.com/systm/freenas/ <-Watch.

Freenas is much improved now and eaiser to use than at the time of that episode. the episode was ok except for the fact they pushed Appletalk. Most of the Apple users as well as everyone else I know use tcpip instead. tcpip is routable and I do not think appletalk is.

[r333vision3]

http://revision3.com/systm/freenas/ <-Watch.

Ok question time, do you have a system that you can convert or gut for this project? You can buy External HD trays cheap now or a hot swap unit for under $100.

So lets look at some parts:



I have watched that systm episode before but it didn't really show how to setup a raid5 config and upgrade the raid5 with more storage.

I a sempron 2400 barebone system right now just need to buy 3+ 1TB HDs

Current Desktop + storage computer is ran on WinXP SP3
All individual HD I bought when I needed more storage.
Networked share among 7 other computers at home.
1x 36.7 OS (sata)
1x 640GB Data (sata)
2x 320GB Data (sata)
1x 200GB Data (ide)
2x 160GB Data (ide)

Looks so simple to maintain a Drobo. Hotswap a HD if it fails or upgrade.

I think i just need to setup a small test system and try out unraid or freenas or ubuntu or watever NAS distro. Test how to recover from HD failure, upgrading and maintaining so i feel comfortable before buying the 3x1TB HD and using it on live data.

[xcorvis]

ReadyNAS™ NV+ 4-Bay Gigabit Desktop Network Storage (No Disk) $619 for a system with no drives??????

http://www.netgear.com/Products/Storage/ReadyNASNVPlus.aspx

Yah, but it's worth it. Set it up as X-raid and put in a drive at a time, expanding when you get cash. You can also mix drives, but it only uses the capacity of the smallest drive.

Sure, you can build something from old parts and use FreeNAS for a cheaper solution, but your power consumption, effort and footprint are probably going to be huge in comparison.

It should be noted that the standard Drobo does not have a network connection. You need to buy the DroboShare add-on for that if you want it, and that will bring the price up to $700 without drives.

[xcorvis]

If price is the primary concern, here are some other options:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010090092%201053807123%201054107131&srchInDesc=RAID&name=SATA&ActiveSearchResult=True

Most of them are Dual-drive external hard drives with some minimal RAID capability. You won't have expandability beyond 2 drives and the drives probably have to be the same size, but they are WAY cheaper. Check out the open box deals at the bottom, if they're still there. At those prices, you can easily pick up a box plus two new 1 TB drives for about $250 before shipping.

[computoman]

Yah, but it's worth it. Set it up as X-raid and put in a drive at a time, expanding when you get cash. You can also mix drives, but it only uses the capacity of the smallest drive.

Sure, you can build something from old parts and use FreeNAS for a cheaper solution, but your power consumption, effort and footprint are probably going to be huge in comparison.

It should be noted that the standard Drobo does not have a network connection. You need to buy the DroboShare add-on for that if you want it, and that will bring the price up to $700 without drives.

A properly setup raid with lvm can easily add drives. As I said before you can get hot swappable bays for any pc. You do not have to get a special nas to do that.

[computoman]

Yah, but it's worth it. Set it up as X-raid and put in a drive at a time, expanding when you get cash. You can also mix drives, but it only uses the capacity of the smallest drive.

Sure, you can build something from old parts and use FreeNAS for a cheaper solution, but your power consumption, effort and footprint are probably going to be huge in comparison.

It should be noted that the standard Drobo does not have a network connection. You need to buy the DroboShare add-on for that if you want it, and that will bring the price up to $700 without drives.

As for the power consumption, I have a box that only uses 40 watts with one drive. One other thing to consider with a home built server, you can run multiple virtual machines on it. whcih means the server can be several machines in one. Combining several boxes into one can be a bigger power saver than a nas./ MY new setup I am working on with be a file,/web, pvr, vm, media server, or what ever else I want it to be.. Try doing that on a the average nas.

[computoman]

If price is the primary concern, here are some other options:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010090092%201053807123%201054107131&srchInDesc=RAID&name=SATA&ActiveSearchResult=True

Most of them are Dual-drive external hard drives with some minimal RAID capability. You won't have expandability beyond 2 drives and the drives probably have to be the same size, but they are WAY cheaper. Check out the open box deals at the bottom, if they're still there. At those prices, you can easily pick up a box plus two new 1 TB drives for about $250 before shipping.

You can do the same thing with an nslu2 which can be off of ebay for around $50 or cheaper. i am not an open box fan unless I can look at it at a brick and mortar store.

[r333vision3]

If price is the primary concern, here are some other options:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010090092%201053807123%201054107131&srchInDesc=RAID&name=SATA&ActiveSearchResult=True


With only two drives slots the only data redundancy is mirrored raid. Doesn't fit my needs since I want to keep add/upgrade drives to maximize space while having it redundant. Probably better cost wise just to scrap a barebone system and add HDs instead of getting those external cases.

Seems like there is no cheaper alternative to the Drobo. The netgear ReadyNAS is a comparable alternative but not cheaper.

FreeNAS and its linux variants is the next closest thing. It can be done VERY cheaply but it take some work configuring to make it work. Thought improved, as mentioned, it still isn't as easy as the Drobo. (Even my grandparents can do it) FreeNAS in raid5 also can't mismatch different HD size. They all need to be the same to fully utilize.

I've looked at unRAID which is close to what the Drobo can do. FlexRAID looks promising but looks quite complicated at first glace. Its concept is very interesting but not as polished.

Maybe someday a true open source package will come that can mimic the Drobo. I'm sure its possible. Drobo's value added is it's software design and algorithm which makes its so easy to use; hence the price tag. For many professionals like photographers etc the ease makes it a bargain. For cheap poor people like me it looks awfully expensive.

[dark_shroud]

r333vision3, I'm in the same position as you money wise. This just has to be done over time with some of the drive trays that I posted. Though it's best to buy the HD's last since prices are always coming down. When you're done you'll actually have a better product in the end. Because the Drobo isn't a NAS.

I looked at doing this very thing myself, in the end I'm just saving up for the HP media smart server. Since it comes with everything including Windows Home Server. I can get two 1TB WD Green Drives to put in it for less than $200 from Newegg. It will take awhile to fill those.

The new 8 port Drobo is nice in some ways but I will not consider a Drobo until it can function as a NAS. Though it is nice that they added iSCSI support.

[r333vision3]

Dark_Shroud:
If you are saving for a HPmediasmart you can probably just build one now if you don't care for HP case design. The OS is can be purchased from newegg. Can prob get a 2x1TB system going under $300.

The drobo+droboshare is a NAS and can do it fine. It's just darn expensive, but its mighty easy use/maintain even for cavemens. There are many DroboApps 3rd party plugins people are developing. Expands its usefulness a lot more towards a FreeNAS or *nix variant.

If I could buy the Drobo+droboshare for near the same price as a custom build FreeNAS box I would take it in a heart beat. Just because its so darn simple to use. Too bad a Drobo+droboshare cost 698.00 barebone. (Although i heard the older 1st generation model can be bought for 200)

[xcorvis]

A properly setup raid with lvm can easily add drives. As I said before you can get hot swappable bays for any pc. You do not have to get a special nas to do that.

You can add drives to an existing RAID array without rebuilding it? And by add drives, I mean add storage capacity, not just extra spares like RAID 5 and 6.

LVM in linux isn't what I'd call easy, but maybe it's improved since I last used it.

[computoman]

Yes you have to rebuild it, but it is not that big of deal. I have not used raid 6 just 0,1, 2, 3, 5, and 50.

[o-neill-kid]

Not sure if the OP's question has been solved (don't have time to read all of the comments) but this is what I just got, like you I wanted a Drobo but didn't have the money and ended up getting this.

http://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Network-Storage-System-NAS200/dp/B000QGTNWY Linksys Network Storage System with 2 Bays (NAS200) $89.99

and two

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-Caviar-Green-WD10EADS/dp/B001IEZX3G%3FSubscriptionId%3D0CD9RCQYM0TBVH55NB82 %26tag%3Dhttpwwwtwittv-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165 953%26creativeASIN%3DB001IEZX3G Western Digital Caviar Green 1 TB Bulk/OEM Hard Drive 3.5 Inch, 32 MB Cache, 7200 RPM SATA II WD10EADS $89.99

alternative hard drives.

1:
The one I picked also comes in 2TB's for $309.74 (I know it would go over your budget as it goes over the price of the drobo) but you could get two 2TB drives to go in the NAS (The one I picked) for $619.48.

2:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000RT5AE0/ref=noref?ie=UTF8&s=electronics Western Digital Caviar Blue 500 GB Bulk/OEM Hard Drive 3.5 Inch, 16 MB Cache, 7200 RPM SATA II WD5000AAKS $57.98 it also has a 750GB that goes for $89.99. So two would cost $179.98.

3:
http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-Barracuda-7200-11-Cache-ST31500341AS/dp/B00066IJPQ%3FSubscriptionId%3D0CD9RCQYM0TBVH55NB82 %26tag%3Dhttpwwwtwittv-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165 953%26creativeASIN%3DB00066IJPQ Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 1.5 TB SATA 32 MB Cache Bulk/OEM Hard Drive ST31500341AS $129.99 so two would cost $259.98. The same drive also comes in 1TB, 750GB, 500GB... etc. Which are all at different prices.

[reanimationxp]

The post above has no real contribution to the conversation at hand. Any NAS or RAID enclosure is of course cheaper than a Drobo or other "smarter" enclosure.

However, the point here is to be able to use several mix-and-match sized drives on a NAS while retaining redundancy, and (preferrably) the ability to add AND replace drives. Your solution solves none of that. A build-your-own Drobo solution would, which IMO is only feasable at this point using some kind of software RAID like FlexRAID or unRAID. Being able to use the box for something other than just NAS (such as Media Center serving to a TV, or a BitTorrent client) would be a bonus as well.

OP, I'm also looking for the holy grail of RAID solutions and really hope someone can come up with or find something. I want the following features:

REQUIRED:
- Redundancy, allowing for at least 1 drive failure
- Mix and match drive sizes WITHOUT being limited by the smallest drive (and thus wasting space)
- Ability to add drives to increase capacity
- Ability to replace drives and increase capacity
- NAS functionality, accessible via a Windows share
- Ability to create multiple partitions, with respective shares (or one large partition with multiple shares mapped to folders on the NAS? Who really cares about the "internal" file structure..)

PREFERRED:
- Performance that isn't terrible - In my case, fast enough to steam 1080P over ethernet
- Minimal data capacity loss due to parity (< 50% - Else I'd just mirror.)
- "NTFS" Volumes larger than 2TB (Not sure if this is possible via a share.. perhaps "Emulate" NTFS and actually store on a file system with larger volume capacities to achieve this? I could care less if Windows reports my remaining space correctly, as long as the NAS would.)
- Software-based, so I can also use the box for other purposes. (Prefferably Windows, due to better Media Center solutions)

My (and the OP's) question here is.. does a viable solution exist? If so, how can we implement it using existing hardware, or for lower cost than a Drobo? Most of us have an older NAS-capable PC collecting dust, a few 200 to 500GB SATA drives we no longer have "room" for in our box, and god dammit we need a solution for this.

I have checked out traditional RAID-5 (of course), unRAID, FlexRAID, RAID-Z and ZFS, Windows Home Server (HP MediaSmart), ReadyNAS, and FreeNAS, and all of these solutions either cannot solve all my requirements above, or are not yet implemented or readily available. If anyone knows of a solution which solves our requirements (other than Drobo) PLEASE correct me :)

[reanimationxp]

Just found an interesting article involving FreeNAS when I started searching for BeyondRAID instead of just Drobo, FlexRAID, etc.

http://www.learnfreenas.com/blog/2009/04/25/drobo-beyondraid-like-redundancy-and-expansion-with-freenas/

While the method here doesn't claim to be solid, it looks like FreeNAS may be moving in the direction of Drobo. I'll be investigating this further.