View Full Version : Surround Speakers: Just how Useful?
Hi,
I currently have a 5.1 setup, unless I turn on 5-channel stereo, I hear almost nothing discrete coming from the rear speakers. I could upgrade to 7.1, but with such lack of content it seems hardly worth the cost. Probably 2.1 or 3.1 would have been good enough.
Maybe it's what I've been watching, but anyone else feel that their surround speakers are underutilized?
must_comment
07-15-2009, 07:35 PM
Depends what you are watching. I mostly watch movies and I LOVE surround sound. I just recently built my first surround sound setup and the difference blew me away. I am never going back, but one thing I quickly picked up on was you had to make sure that everything you are using was set to 5.1. If one thing was out of sync you didn't get the 5.1 experience, you would instead get a stereo-ish experience.
Another thing you should be mindful of is VSS (Virtual Surround Sound). Salesmen will tell you it's surround sound but it's not. The sound is being sent out over 2 channels and the speakers are just interpreting the same shared signal differently. You may have purchased this accidently. True 5.1 is separate dedicated soundtracks sent to seperate speakers.
rharvier
07-15-2009, 07:58 PM
Make sure you're using the correct connections to get surround sound: coaxial digital audio or spdif or all analog. I think content makes all the difference too. Get a hold of some reference discs for sound, LotR, Fifth Element... try any of the Superbit discs... they use DTS... I thought Black Hawk Down was really good sound wise. Try Russel Crowe in Gladiator too.
davmoo
07-16-2009, 12:25 AM
I'd say it depends on the source of the 5.1 sound. I have a Philips 5.1 surround sound setup, and I can definitely here a major difference between 2, 3, and 5 speaker modes. Its so realistic that there are times when I will hear rain and get up and look out the window, not realizing that its only in the movie I'm watching.
This would make for an interesting companion question to the current episode's "What's a good movie to really show off HD?"..."What's a good movie to really show off a sound system?"
Here are the basic home theater specs:
Samsung LN46A950
Denon AVR-3808CI
Klipsch RF-52 x2 (front)
Klipsch RC-52 x1 (center)
Klipsch RB-10 x2 (rear)
Klipsch RPW-10 x1 (sub)
PS3 160GB w/remote
All speaker wires are new and have been balanced in length for their respective runs (front and rear) and correct phasing has been observed.
HDMI between PS3 and Denon receiver and between Denon and Samsung TV. All audio modes, except 7.1, have been selected in the PS3. Denon shows multi-channel in and out when playing Blu-ray movies on the PS3.
Speaking of which, I don't own a lot of Blu-ray discs, but I do own the Dark Knight, which maybe for this discussion, we could use as a reference disc.
Sitting in the captains chair, with the balance and fade for all speakers set to zero dB, I hear surprisingly very little, it was there, but little discrete sound from the surround speakers. If I was to crank up the surround speaker volume dB levels for movie playback, then when watching regular TV (DISH Receiver using TOS-Link, no OTA available) the rears would be too loud (the surround speakers are behind me only 3 feet on either side).
Note that regular TV is mostly DD stereo, so during that time I switch the Denon receiver to 5-channel stereo to get some sound out of the surround speakers, otherwise the sound would all be coming out of the fronts.
As to a good movie to push the surround, I can't help but remember the beginning of Saving Private Ryan, when they were first landing on the beach. I saw SPR in the theater and was impressed with the sound of the bullets flying in all different directions over the landing craft.
What made SPR stand out was many other previous and since then movies I first watched in the theater also lacked a lot of surround sound. I just figured with many of these previous movies the theater didn't flip the appropriate switch. Later figuring that once these movies were released on DVD or Blu-ray would be the way to truly experience the sound. Well, despite my best efforts it seems I'm still waiting for that day. :)
callen
07-16-2009, 03:27 PM
You may notice that certain television content may not have the best surround sound even when its Dolby Digitial content. This is because certain shows are simply not mastered as well as others with regards to the sound. But with movies (both DVD and Blu-ray) you should definitely be able to pic up on discreet and distinctive audio from your 5.1 system. However most spoken dialogue, along with a vast majority of other sound is routed through the center channel, so if there is not a lot of ambient sounds in a particular portion of content you will definitely notice a lack of audio from the other speakers. With this in mind, the 5 channel stereo mode you mentioned will give you full sound to all your speakers, but this however may not be the most optimized sound when something is mastered in Dolby Digital. This said having a good center channel speaker is always ideal as it really is the focal point for any surround sound setup.
With regards to configuring your system the Denon reciever you have should have a method for automatically configuring you speaker set up and this maybe a good place to start for getting the best sound. It should adjust for speaker distances, speaker type and range, and the like. You may notice that it increases the DB level to certain speakers as well to help optimize the sound for your particular room.
Additionally there may also be a test function that will send a test sound to each of the speakers in your setup to make sure they are each receiving an audio signal. Also this is a great way to make sure you have your speakers hooked up correctly as you can verify that the test sound is coming from the correct speaker.
Also with the PS3 you can always verify the audio format for a particular disc through the on screen menu (the triangle button on the control pad) and go to the display icon on the top right of that menu. This will show the current audio format, Dolby Digital, Dolby True-HD, DTS-HD, etc. Also remember that you may have to select the higher quality audio formats as some Blu-ray discs do default to just Dolby Digital audio. Your HDMI connection will allow for the uncompressed audio formats to be used with your system.
Hope this helps you out some and gives you some things to check in order to get most out of your surround sound setup. You may also want to checkout this Dolby speaker set up guide. Lots of worthwhile information to be found here:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_entertainment/speaker-setup-guide/index.html
Here are the basic home theater specs:
Samsung LN46A950
Denon AVR-3808CI
Klipsch RF-52 x2 (front)
Klipsch RC-52 x1 (center)
Klipsch RB-10 x2 (rear)
Klipsch RPW-10 x1 (sub)
PS3 160GB w/remote
All speaker wires are new and have been balanced in length for their respective runs (front and rear) and correct phasing has been observed.
HDMI between PS3 and Denon receiver and between Denon and Samsung TV. All audio modes, except 7.1, have been selected in the PS3. Denon shows multi-channel in and out when playing Blu-ray movies on the PS3.
Speaking of which, I don't own a lot of Blu-ray discs, but I do own the Dark Knight, which maybe for this discussion, we could use as a reference disc.
Sitting in the captains chair, with the balance and fade for all speakers set to zero dB, I hear surprisingly very little, it was there, but little discrete sound from the surround speakers. If I was to crank up the surround speaker volume dB levels for movie playback, then when watching regular TV (DISH Receiver using TOS-Link, no OTA available) the rears would be too loud (the surround speakers are behind me only 3 feet on either side).
Note that regular TV is mostly DD stereo, so during that time I switch the Denon receiver to 5-channel stereo to get some sound out of the surround speakers, otherwise the sound would all be coming out of the fronts.
As to a good movie to push the surround, I can't help but remember the beginning of Saving Private Ryan, when they were first landing on the beach. I saw SPR in the theater and was impressed with the sound of the bullets flying in all different directions over the landing craft.
What made SPR stand out was many other previous and since then movies I first watched in the theater also lacked a lot of surround sound. I just figured with many of these previous movies the theater didn't flip the appropriate switch. Later figuring that once these movies were released on DVD or Blu-ray would be the way to truly experience the sound. Well, despite my best efforts it seems I'm still waiting for that day. :)
ghelyar
07-16-2009, 03:37 PM
I used to use a big 7.1 speaker setup on my PC and like you I heard pretty much nothing coming from the rear and side speakers, (in 7.1 mode with surround sound content, obviously). Even if I unplugged the front speakers and maxed the volume, I could barely hear the side and rear ones and they were right next to my head.
In the end I weighed the mass of wiring and space it was taking up against the difference it made and went back to stereo.
You may notice that certain television content may not have the best surround sound even when its Dolby Digitial content. This is because certain shows are simply not mastered as well as others with regards to the sound. But with movies (both DVD and Blu-ray) you should definitely be able to pic up on discreet and distinctive audio from your 5.1 system.
Even movies presented in DD5.1 from the premium channels are lackluster. I remember hearing a great deal more surround with my old Pioneer Elite VSX-07TX receiver then with the new Denon AVR-3808CI receiver. Course, the Denon is more complicated (with not the best written owners manual) than the Pioneer. I'm going to go back and reconfigure everything and see if I missed something.
However most spoken dialogue, along with a vast majority of other sound is routed through the center channel, so if there is not a lot of ambient sounds in a particular portion of content you will definitely notice a lack of audio from the other speakers. With this in mind, the 5 channel stereo mode you mentioned will give you full sound to all your speakers, but this however may not be the most optimized sound when something is mastered in Dolby Digital. This said having a good center channel speaker is always ideal as it really is the focal point for any surround sound setup.
I kept the same series of Klipsch speakers in all three front locations and opted to go with smaller Klipsch speakers of a difference series in the back. My thinking was to match the center with the FL and FR so that when sound would pan there wouldn't be that much of a noticeable tonal difference.
With regards to configuring your system the Denon reciever you have should have a method for automatically configuring you speaker set up and this maybe a good place to start for getting the best sound. It should adjust for speaker distances, speaker type and range, and the like. You may notice that it increases the DB level to certain speakers as well to help optimize the sound for your particular room.
That's how I have it currently adjusted, by using the included microphone and the painstakingly long automatic setup. It wanted to continue and automatically adjust for all seating locations, but I stopped it after adjusting the main location. However, it report speaker distances that were not correct. For example saying that the subwoofer was 22 feet away, which I corrected.
Perhaps manual adjustment is really the way to go and the microphone method is for the same people who can't set their clock on their VCR. ;)
Additionally there may also be a test function that will send a test sound to each of the speakers in your setup to make sure they are each receiving an audio signal. Also this is a great way to make sure you have your speakers hooked up correctly as you can verify that the test sound is coming from the correct speaker.
While this is a separate selectable function, it was part of the automatic microphone method.
[Time Passes]
Also with the PS3 you can always verify the audio format for a particular disc through the on screen menu (the triangle button on the control pad) and go to the display icon on the top right of that menu. This will show the current audio format, Dolby Digital, Dolby True-HD, DTS-HD, etc. Also remember that you may have to select the higher quality audio formats as some Blu-ray discs do default to just Dolby Digital audio. Your HDMI connection will allow for the uncompressed audio formats to be used with your system.
After reading the top half of your reply, as well as the above quote, I ordered the "DVE HD Basics" disc and have reconfigured everything.
As it turned out the rear speakers were set too low with the microphone method. Originally at 0dB, now each are set to 3dB. But that wasn't the biggest change, that was saved for the PS3. As it turned out I had the PS3 set for Bit Stream, when it should have been set for Linear PCM. Apparently a hardware limitation with the PS3. Basically it was only outputting 2 channels for DVD and Blu-ray through the HDMI connection. I also enabled AAC and all 7.1 modes in the PS3 and now let the Denon handle the down-mixing to 5.1. While in the PS3 settings I also made some other video setting changes as well as confirmed others.
The Dolby link you provided shows me that I don't have the surround speakers in the most ideal location. It shows that they should be spread out at 100-110 degrees (much further apart), firing over the arm rests. Because of the high back couch I'm using and the limited amount of space behind the couch, I have them more in line with the front speakers (a square pattern). They were a little catawampus from the main seating position, now they are firing directly at me, but still over my head.
All in all, a much better situation then when I first posted. I'm noticing more activity from the surround speakers in all modes. Including when listening to music from the PS3 in Dolby PLIIx, eliminating the need to switch to 5 channel stereo just to get some sound out of the surround speakers.
However, I'm still a little confused about the crossover settings in the Denon. I'm using the advance crossover settings where instead of setting one frequency for all speakers (Denon recommends using the one setting of 80 Hz for all speakers), it allows you to individually adjust the crossovers for each group of speakers (ie: front, center and surround A). I've set the front, center and surround to just above the bottom end of what each group of speakers can reproduce on their own.
It is my understanding that when using LFE-Main that any frequency below the cutoff point for the front, center and surround crossover setting (low-pass) should get redirected to the subwoofer. But in addition to the other three crossover settings there is also one for the subwoofer. I fail to see the need for the subwoofer crossover control when it is already getting the redirected lower frequencies from the other three crossover settings. Besides that, the subwoofer has it's own crossover knob on the back (likely for using high level out). For that I set it to 120Hz (the max) and am letting the Denon receiver manage the crossover frequencies as recommended by Klipsch. Likewise, I've set the subwoofer crossover setting in the Denon to 120Hz.
Even if the subwoofer didn't have it's own manual adjustment, shouldn't the other three groups of crossover controls in the Denon receiver be enough to determine what gets sent to the subwoofer?
I used to use a big 7.1 speaker setup on my PC and like you I heard pretty much nothing coming from the rear and side speakers, (in 7.1 mode with surround sound content, obviously). Even if I unplugged the front speakers and maxed the volume, I could barely hear the side and rear ones and they were right next to my head.
In the end I weighed the mass of wiring and space it was taking up against the difference it made and went back to stereo.
While I didn't unplug the front speakers, I too was hearing next to nothing from the rear speakers. As it turns out, it looks like the problem I was having was mostly caused by my error in the PS3 configuration.
callen
07-19-2009, 04:46 AM
As it turned out the rear speakers were set too low with the microphone method. Originally at 0dB, now each are set to 3dB. But that wasn't the biggest change, that was saved for the PS3. As it turned out I had the PS3 set for Bit Stream, when it should have been set for Linear PCM. Apparently a hardware limitation with the PS3. Basically it was only outputting 2 channels for DVD and Blu-ray through the HDMI connection. I also enabled AAC and all 7.1 modes in the PS3 and now let the Denon handle the down-mixing to 5.1. While in the PS3 settings I also made some other video setting changes as well as confirmed others.
The Dolby link you provided shows me that I don't have the surround speakers in the most ideal location. It shows that they should be spread out at 100-110 degrees (much further apart), firing over the arm rests. Because of the high back couch I'm using and the limited amount of space behind the couch, I have them more in line with the front speakers (a square pattern). They were a little catawampus from the main seating position, now they are firing directly at me, but still over my head.
All in all, a much better situation then when I first posted. I'm noticing more activity from the surround speakers in all modes. Including when listening to music from the PS3 in Dolby PLIIx, eliminating the need to switch to 5 channel stereo just to get some sound out of the surround speakers.
Glad to hear you have things a bit more in order. The linear PCM setting on the PS3 would make a lot of difference for certain. And the positioning of the various channels within your room will definitely make a difference in what your hearing.
However, I'm still a little confused about the crossover settings in the Denon. I'm using the advance crossover settings where instead of setting one frequency for all speakers (Denon recommends using the one setting of 80 Hz for all speakers), it allows you to individually adjust the crossovers for each group of speakers (ie: front, center and surround A). I've set the front, center and surround to just above the bottom end of what each group of speakers can reproduce on their own.
It is my understanding that when using LFE-Main that any frequency below the cutoff point for the front, center and surround crossover setting (low-pass) should get redirected to the subwoofer. But in addition to the other three crossover settings there is also one for the subwoofer. I fail to see the need for the subwoofer crossover control when it is already getting the redirected lower frequencies from the other three crossover settings. Besides that, the subwoofer has it's own crossover knob on the back (likely for using high level out). For that I set it to 120Hz (the max) and am letting the Denon receiver manage the crossover frequencies as recommended by Klipsch. Likewise, I've set the subwoofer crossover setting in the Denon to 120Hz.
Even if the subwoofer didn't have it's own manual adjustment, shouldn't the other three groups of crossover controls in the Denon receiver be enough to determine what gets sent to the subwoofer?
The crossover setting for the front, center, and rear speakers is most likely unique to just these speakers. So you were right in setting the sub crossover in addition to the other channels. This is similar to how I had to set up my Onkyo receiver as well. And if you have the crossover on the sub itself turned all that way up to its full range the receiver crossover should be sending audio at or below 120Hz to your sub while the other channels are hitting at 80Hz and above. Plus you can also play with the crossover settings on all the channels to see what sounds best to you.
Thanks for all your help!