Satellite RF cables

[davmoo]

I'm having a few minor issues with my satellite TV that boil down to that's what I get for using cheap RG6 (because I had, and still have, several thousand foot spools of the stuff laying around left over from a job for a client a few years back). So in preparation for going HD on the Dish Network I'm looking at running new cable from the dish to the house. Its about a 75 to 90 foot or so run.

After Googling around for a bit, the bee's knees in RG6 seems to be Belden 1694A. And if one wants to go really low loss and doesn't mind a larger RG11 cable that is not very flexible, and a larger price tag, Belden 7731A.

Anybody have any other suggestions I should be looking at?

Edit: And no, moving the dish closer to the house is not an option. Where the dish is now is the closest I can get it to the house without cutting down trees. And in any argument of Trees versus Dish, trees will win. I like my trees.

[revision3fan]

At the 75 - 90 ft. length, signal attenuation could become a problem. The signal at the antenna end may have to be amplified, if possible.

[davmoo]

Even with an amp I'm losing a good 9 db or more by the time it gets in the house. I know all the dish hardware is good, and I'm getting the best signal possible at the dish. That's why I'm going with the bad coax theory.

[revision3fan]

Is a wireless solution possible from the antenna to to the house? One that works with video or 802.11n perhaps? I've heard 20 Mbps is necessary for mp4 which is what I think Dish Network HD is.

If staying wired, try to put your house tuner as close to the cable entrance as possible. Move your TV there.

[davmoo]

Already done that. The satellite enters the house at the closest point possible, and I rearranged the house 10 years ago just so I could have the TV next to where the satellite enters.

As for wireless, there aren't a lot of options there. From the satellite receiver to a TV, yeah, that's easy...Slingbox or something like that. But to my knowledge there really isn't anything available to go wireless from the dish itself to the receiver. The only way really to do that would be to put a receiver out at the dish and operate it remotely somehow. And by the time all the hardware for that is added up, going with super-duper high-end 7731a coax at $2 a foot (Bluejeans Cable price) is cheaper.

A larger dish is also an option. I could go to 30" dishes instead of the current 18" dishes.

Now that its finally quit raining for a few days I'm going to look around the yard tomorrow and see if I can move the dish to a better location. But I think I'm probably already there unless I cut trees, and as stated before I ain't doing that.

[mic]

Well, there's always Andrew HJ5-75 Heliax.

http://www.centralmediaserver.com/WIXT/Engineering/coax.jpg

"Finally, for you connoisseurs out there who want nothing less than the Heliax... a 100 foot section, pre-assembled with "N" connectors, runs just over $25,000. You'll also need special adapters, special hanger clamps, and a system to pressurize the line with nitrogen (you'll have to change tanks periodically) or a dehydrator system. Figure closer to $30,000 for the complete installation... and don't forget to budget for the armed guard to fend off copper thieves.

RG11 looks better already, doesn't it?"

;)

Click here (http://community.9wsyr.com/blogs/plugged_in_the_dtv_switch/archive/2008/06/03/3072382.aspx) for complete source article regarding cable loss.

[davmoo]

Actually there is hardline that will perform better than RG11 but without the cost of HJ5-75 and its support, although it still would be $400 or so. And don't think I haven't though about using it. What stops me is the conversion from n-connectors to f-connectors that would be needed at each end. The losses from that eat up a lot of the gain from using hardline in the first place, at least for a 100-foot run.

[revision3fan]

What about erecting a mast and placing the Dish Network antenna on top of the mast. If your antenna has to face the southern sky, try placing the mast on the north side of your house so it gives the antenna more room for an unobstructed signal.

[davmoo]

The trees are significantly taller than the house...and its a two story house plus an attic that is basically a third story. I'd have to put at least a 30-foot mast on the roof of the house to clear the trees. And not only would the coax feeding the satellite receiver be just as long as it is now, it would make for one hell of a lightning target (the tallest tree has been struck 4 times since I've lived here...how it survives that is beyond me).

I'm not trying to be a negative nay-sayer regardless of what anyone suggests, and I feel bad that that is probably how I appear. But I've done a *lot* of work over the years installing and maintaining commercial radio systems, from DC to daylight. And I've had my Dish Network for over 10 years now. Over that 10+ years, I've thought about all of this. Going to an improved RG6 or RG11, or a larger dish, is simply the only workable idea that's left that does not involve a chain saw.

[mic]

I don't see how you could do much more than increase the dish size and use RG-11 or better, to improve signal strength. Our cable internet service runs to the house with RG-11 because it would not work right with RG-6 due to the distance.

If you only need to feed one TV from multiple dishes, do you think placing the DPP-44 in the middle of the run would have any benefit?

BTW, you have nothing to feel bad about, don't worry. :)

[davmoo]

I've even thought at times about using the chainsaw method. But I just can't bring myself to do that. I'm not a hyped-up tree huger or such, but the trees (and the animals they contain) are the main reason I live in the boonies and not the big city. Cutting down the trees kind of defeats the "living here to enjoy nature" idea. Plus I like the idea that lightning strikes the trees before it strikes the house...I'm pretty sure the lightning rods on the house will do the job, but I'd prefer to not have an actual test of that :D

[mikec]

Have you looked to see if anyone makes a low cost fiber option? What is the bandwidth that needs to be fed? One way or bi-directional?

Both Markertek and Black Box carry the stuff.

[kiwifrog]

Have you actually tried the dish on the roof of the house. People usually forget that the satellite signal is not coming from where the LNB is pointing. The signal comes froms space and bounces on a higher point on the dish then is reflected into the lnb. I've seed dishes at a 39deg elevation pointing at a large hillside and still receiving good signal.


Mike.

[revision3fan]

Try mounting the antenna on a tree.

[mic]

How's the wiring project coming along?

[davmoo]

How's the wiring project coming along?

Unfortunately its been delayed by too many other things...and since I get paid for those other things, they have to take priority :)

[mic]

I know what that's like. When the opportunity does arise, if you have the time I'd appreciate knowing what you ultimately decided. Thanks.

[davmoo]

Another reason for holding up involves legalities. The main reason I want to improve the setup is to go from SD to HD. But going to satellite HD requires my dropping TiVo and going with a Dish Network DVR because HD TiVo boxes will not support an external receiver like the SD boxes do. And Dish just this week got whacked with yet another fine for violating TiVo's patents, with a judge proclaiming that even their workaround was still in violation. I'm not going to sink money in to a Dish HD DVR this week to find out the DVR functionality is going to be turned off next week.

It sucks that TiVo is more interested, or at least so it seems, in litigation than in creating a box that will work with an external satellite receiver. It would require nothing more than adding an HDMI input and an IR control port to their current HD boxes. But they'd apparently rather kowtow to the cable industry than retain satellite customers.

[mic]

Lease is often a better option than purchasing a receiver, but I do know a few people that would rather own, than lease. I've been a DISH customer for about 8 years, the last 5 years with TiVo lawsuits pending and having one of the affected receivers mentioned in the suit. So far there has been no impact.

In the past and in other places, when I've asked about the DVR functionality being turned off because of the lawsuits, the most common answer I've received is, that's very unlikely to happen. Get fined, sure, but cutting off DISH's ability to play fines, no.

I mention this not to persuade you one way or another, but to let you know where I'm coming from.

It should get interesting now that the USPTO is reviewing two of TiVo's patents. I don't know what that will lead to, or if DISH will eventually be able to use that in it's favor. Sometimes I wonder with the correctly filed paper work and a vague description, that the USPTO wouldn't hesitate issuing a patent for Dihydrogen Monoxide.

To barrow a modified quote from The Shawshank Redemption:

TiVo; get busy inventing, or get busy dying. :)

[davmoo]

I'm one of those nutty people who prefers to own his equipment :D

Seriously, in the past I've taken advantage of a couple of "free with a two year commitment" offers. And considering that I've been with Dish Network for 10 years now, the chances that I'm going to suddenly decide to ditch it are very slim...I probably have a better chance of being hit by lightning and winning the lottery in the same day. But given the current state of the economy, I'm real hesitant about locking in a 24-month commitment just to get a free HD DVR.

I used to have a Dish 510 DVR. I sold it on eBay and switched to a TiVo combined with a 311 receiver simply for the ease of moving programming to other devices with the TiVo. I got tired of how the first step in moving programming off the 510 was "remove hard drive from receiver".

[kermyb123]

I know this is an old thread...

On cables (I work in both the sat and cellular installation industires) as for your helix quote... I have a left over roll of about 100' - If you really think the going rate is 25k for 100' with N connectors, umm I'll do it for 10% of that and you can turn a 22k profit!

Where does some of this .. come from!

As for the issue, which I'm sure is resolved by now, for future readers I would suggest a SWiM modulated system from the LNB headend. DirecTV is the only sat provider offering SWiM at the moment, however, I have personally made runs nearing 200' using quality RG6U Quad using the SWiM system.

FYI SWiM is a single wire system that basically houses the switch and some other magical systems in the feed head where it throws down eight addressable "channels". the only real issue on length of cable is in terms of voltage drop from the home to the LNB since the unit requires about 21v. Once the signal is passed from the LNB to the single coax run; the run can be quite long and the install can use standard splitters in the home.

Hope this helps someone, I'm serious on the helix offer! I also have a 97 Jeep that books for $1.23M I'll take 10% for that too...

[trilogy]

I'm having a few minor issues with my satellite TV that boil down to that's what I get for using cheap RG6 (because I had, and still have, several thousand foot spools of the stuff laying around left over from a job for a client a few years back). So in preparation for going HD on the Dish Network I'm looking at running new cable from the dish to the house. Its about a 75 to 90 foot or so run.

After Googling around for a bit, the bee's knees in RG6 seems to be Belden 1694A. And if one wants to go really low loss and doesn't mind a larger RG11 cable that is not very flexible, and a larger price tag, Belden 7731A.

Anybody have any other suggestions I should be looking at?

Edit: And no, moving the dish closer to the house is not an option. Where the dish is now is the closest I can get it to the house without cutting down trees. And in any argument of Trees versus Dish, trees will win. I like my trees.


Old thread, but maybe this will help anyway.
RG-6 rated at 2.4 gigahertz is sufficient for ANY Dish Network or Direct TV cable run up to 150 feet- TOTAL line run. Ideally, RG-6 rated at 3 gigahertz is better, but the line length is still the same.
Officially runs of up to 200 feet are supported, but voltage drops across that length can create issues.
When dealing with the hi frequency digital information in Satellite systems it helps to visualize a garden hose. Voltage from the receiver to power the LNBF travels THRU the wire like water running thru a hose. The DIGITAL information travels back along the SURFACE of the copper (like ants running along the surface of the hose) to the receiver.
Any sharp bends in the line can create a capacitor, blocking certain frequencies from getting thru, and channel loss.
I can't speak to DirecTV, but with Dish Network, and the band stacked Dual Tuner DVR's that they have, the cable isn't the only thing that needs to be "right".
The connections/terminations on the cable need to be rated as well. SnapOn RG-6 fittings should be used, though crimp-on connections done with the right tool can work. The most overlooked part of the circuit are the barrels in the wall plates and the ground block. They MUST be rated for 2.4 gig at least. Barrel inserts are actually color coded. White or clear are rated to 950 megahertz (fine for analog cable). Yellow are rated around 1.5 gigahertz, blue (what Dish uses) are rated to at least 2.4, and the RED ones are even higher.
Cable, termination and barrels must all be rated to at least 2.4 for the system to be reliable.
Larger dishes/reflectors will not improve things.
If you have a DPP44 in the system it can increase the total line run to 200 feet or a bit more, but remember that it is a powered switch and must be inserted in the path properly.

[davmoo]

Old thread, but maybe this will help anyway.

It may be an old thread but it does still help. Thanks to Mother Nature and her effing snow, I still haven't done anything.

I knew connectors matter, but I wasn't sure of any specific recommendations. I'll seek out the SnapOn fittings you suggest.

[radman]

... having worked as a Bell ExpressVu technician in Canada (same technology as Dish Network) I second pretty much everything trilogy has said below.

We used to run dual shield RG6 and I never had problems due to cable selection for 100' runs.

Invariably dish positioning, poor cable stripping and termination technique or subpart accessories (grounding blocks and the F81 joiners in wall plates) were always to blame.

Couple of tips,

1. When terminating RG6 always use compression connectors, never crimp. I can't tell you how many service calls I had to make for crimp connections. Compression connectors can generally handle 40lbs of pull force, more than enough.

2. When terminating, it is important to ensure that no portion of the foil shield touches the centre core. This may seem like an odd point, but with dull stripping tools a sliver of the foil can sometimes wrap itself around the core, causing a short. You should see nothing but white dielectric between the foil and core.

Anyhoo, that's my too many cents.

RadMan

Old thread, but maybe this will help anyway.
RG-6 rated at 2.4 gigahertz is sufficient for ANY Dish Network or Direct TV cable run up to 150 feet- TOTAL line run. Ideally, RG-6 rated at 3 gigahertz is better, but the line length is still the same.
Officially runs of up to 200 feet are supported, but voltage drops across that length can create issues.
When dealing with the hi frequency digital information in Satellite systems it helps to visualize a garden hose. Voltage from the receiver to power the LNBF travels THRU the wire like water running thru a hose. The DIGITAL information travels back along the SURFACE of the copper (like ants running along the surface of the hose) to the receiver.
Any sharp bends in the line can create a capacitor, blocking certain frequencies from getting thru, and channel loss.
I can't speak to DirecTV, but with Dish Network, and the band stacked Dual Tuner DVR's that they have, the cable isn't the only thing that needs to be "right".
The connections/terminations on the cable need to be rated as well. SnapOn RG-6 fittings should be used, though crimp-on connections done with the right tool can work. The most overlooked part of the circuit are the barrels in the wall plates and the ground block. They MUST be rated for 2.4 gig at least. Barrel inserts are actually color coded. White or clear are rated to 950 megahertz (fine for analog cable). Yellow are rated around 1.5 gigahertz, blue (what Dish uses) are rated to at least 2.4, and the RED ones are even higher.
Cable, termination and barrels must all be rated to at least 2.4 for the system to be reliable.
Larger dishes/reflectors will not improve things.
If you have a DPP44 in the system it can increase the total line run to 200 feet or a bit more, but remember that it is a powered switch and must be inserted in the path properly.