hybrid misconceptions

[cwerdna]

Hey Alex and Kevin,

Ok, you guys don't like hybrids much or Priuses... I own an 06 Prius (and an 04 Nissan 350Z) but I just wanted to make some corrections about your hybrid misconceptions.

First off, looks are subjective and even *I* will admit the Prius is an odd looking car but certainly not the ugliest. Ugly cars in my book are ones like the Honda Insight, Pontiac Aztek, Subaru B9 Tribeca and maybe the Nissan Murano.

There are plenty of normal looking hybrids (which unfortunately don't get mileage in the same league as the Prius, Civic Hybrid aka HCH and Honda Insight): Lexus RX400h, Toyota Highlander Hybrid (aka HyHi), Honda Accord Hybrid, Toyota Camry Hybrid (aka HyCam), Ford Escape Hybrid (you named it), Lexus GS450h, and others. Nissan is shipping a hybrid Altima ssoon.

As for power, the hybrids which are optimized for fuel economy: HCH, Prius and Insight are admittedly weak in that department. The HCH and Prius are 110 hp combined and the HCH is actually a little slower than the Prius. Both cars in drag race would definitely lose to most cars but I've driven my Prius numerous times in SF and plenty on the highway w/o problem. Obviously, when people are buying this class of car, they're not looking for power. If you want power, the Accord Hybrid is the way to go, it's 253 hp, is faster than the regular V6 Accord yet gets better mileage than the 4 cylinder (review at http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/8779/honda-accord-hybrid.html). Unfortunately, it's real expensive so it's not selling well.

There is the tax credit to bring down the cost (see http://www.aceee.org/transportation/hybtaxcred.htm), but the credit has been cut in half for Toyota/Lexus since they've hit 60K qualifying vehicles. Honda will be next.

As for making up for the extra cost, Consumer Reports stated that over a 5 year timespan, Prius owners would save $406 vs. a Corolla and HCH owners $317 vs. a Civic. http://environment.about.com/od/fossilfuels/a/hybridcarcosts.htm?once=true& Many find their comparisons to be bogus since the Corolla is very basic transportation compared to a Prius and many have taken issue w/their claims that hybrids depreciate faster. Intellichoice.com came up w/MUCH more favorable #s for the Prius vs. both a Corolla and a Camry for total cost of ownership (but their site's down right now).

Another point I should make is that, let's exclude whether or not you can even make up for the price premium. What's wrong w/paying more for reducing dependence on foreign oil, spewing out less pollution and recapturing some energy that'd otherwise be useless brake dust and heat? See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm if you want to compare air pollution scores and greenhouse gas emissions. Do you ever see any articles about how much money a sunroof saved you? How about a V8 engine or power windows? How much money did that save you? They don't save $, so it shouldn't be a requirement that hybrids save $ either.

One more thing, if you want to see what kinda of mileage Consumer Reports w/the top 11 most fuel efficient cars see http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/buyingleasing/most-fuelefficient-cars-206/index.htm instead of looking at misleading EPA numbers that nobody gets.

BTW, I do like your podcast and it is one of the few I listen to regularly.

[lefrenzy]

nice post.

do you think the hybrid accord or the new hybrid lexus (sedan not suv) is just a waste?

even with the facts you mentioned, if i were to buy a hybrid, i'd buy the civic version.

[cwerdna]

nice post.

do you think the hybrid accord or the new hybrid lexus (sedan not suv) is just a waste?

even with the facts you mentioned, if i were to buy a hybrid, i'd buy the civic version.
Thanks. Yeah, if one is looking for better fuel economy, the Lexus GS hybrid and Accord hybrid aren't a good idea because of the improvement being so small compared to the price premium even including the tax credit.

The Civic Hybrid IMHO is an inferior car compared to the Prius. The previous gen was really inferior although the current gen has closed the gap somewhat. Why inferior? It has lower EPA and real world mileage, it wasn't any cheaper (at the time I got my Prius when I still got the full tax credit), it's slower than the Prius, has less cargo versatility, has a funky interior (weirder than the Prius) and doesn't have all the gadgetry that's available on the Prius. I hear the HCH has an edge in handling though.

[falls]

Hey Alex and Kevin,

As for making up for the extra cost, Consumer Reports stated that over a 5 year timespan, Prius owners would save $406 vs. a Corolla and HCH owners $317 vs. a Civic. http://environment.about.com/od/fossilfuels/a/hybridcarcosts.htm?once=true& Many find their comparisons to be bogus since the Corolla is very basic transportation compared to a Prius and many have taken issue w/their claims that hybrids depreciate faster. Intellichoice.com came up w/MUCH more favorable #s for the Prius vs. both a Corolla and a Camry for total cost of ownership (but their site's down right now).


I'll add:
I own an '06 Prius as well and I have to say that when I went car shopping I knew that I was willing to spend $X on a car and that's what I spent. That's how most people buy cars--they set a budget and then work within it. In the end, I replaced an '03 Grand Prix for and '06 Prius that cost me the same amount as the GP did when it was new. Anybody who buys a car to save money is cracked. Cars aren't investments, they're depreciating assets.

[rhett803]

Hybirds are crap in my opinion. But that's just my opinion.


Also, they are freaking death traps man. In the extrication and rescue class for fireman and other emergency personell, they will tell you about all the large wires that will continue to hold a charge, that make it almost impossible to cut apart.

So if you are in a wreck, and the dash is crushed and pinning you in, we can't do a normal dash roll, we have to take a lot more time, double check for wires, use different methods, etc.

There was even an incident were a hybrid wrecked and shorted out, charging the body of the car. A fireman walked up and touched the body, and was killed.

So yeah, screw hybrids man. If you want good gas milage then build a better motor. A perfect balanced motor will get great gas milage. I know a guy who has a 79 Chevy K5 Blazer, 4x4, lifted, with a 350 v8 in it. It has well over 300hp, and gets around 30 mpg.

[casework]

What I didn't get is how Kevin and Alex knocked hybrids for being "futuristic", but the car in the story they covered was the most futuristic looking car I've seen in a while. It looked badass, but to say it doesn't have that futuristic look to it, you're just kidding yourself.

[ryudo]

Ugliest cars are these ****ing box shaped things and see people driving tem everywhere..they have really gotten lazy in design..don't know the name but it's just a damn box.

[casework]

Ugliest cars are these ****ing box shaped things and see people driving tem everywhere..they have really gotten lazy in design..don't know the name but it's just a damn box.

Yeah... the Scions and Hondas. Worst thing is, THREE of my family members bought the Honda Refrigerators at the SAME time.

[ariastar]

What's wrong w/paying more for reducing dependence on foreign oil, spewing out less pollution and recapturing some energy that'd otherwise be useless brake dust and heat?

The problem is that some people can't afford it. Sure, it may cost less in the end (factoring out depreciation since these haven't been on the market long enough for an accurate devaluation, imp), but it's not an up-front cost many can afford yet. Most people buy used because the cost of buying off-the-lot is too much for their budgets. I find it ironic that the cars that are cheaper to own are available right now to those who have the money to afford it. That single mother just scraping buy driving a crappy '84 Civic Hatchback would do better with a more fuel-efficient car, but couldn't afford the payments.

If someone can afford a Hybrid, by all means, buy one, it's your money. But don't assume that everyone can just afford it. Hell, I make decent money and have no debt what-so-ever and doubt I could afford one of these, assuming I wanted to get rid of my car that I love for all the 28 highway miles it gets.

My ex, who owns a car lot (no, I would not ask him to get me a car) and is very environmentally conscious has told me that there are indeed a lot of misconceptions about these cars such as safety and how many miles per hour they really get. Do the estimated include the mileage driven while on battery or only what's driven on gas? Since most driving is done at lower speeds in cities, most miles are on battery for the typical driver. Yet the total gone on one gallon including lower speeds versus driven on gas alone would be substantially different.

[tokenuser]

I find it ironic that the cars that are cheaper to own are available right now to those who have the money to afford it. That single mother just scraping buy driving a crappy '84 Civic Hatchback would do better with a more fuel-efficient car, but couldn't afford the payments.I find it ironic that you can get a cheaper loan through the dealer (0%, 0.9%) than through other means, so you could really get a much better new car for the cost of the clapped out Civic. Problem is qualifying for the credit - those who don't need it are the best at qualifying.

[ariastar]

I find it ironic that you can get a cheaper loan through the dealer (0%, 0.9%) than through other means, so you could really get a much better new car for the cost of the clapped out Civic. Problem is qualifying for the credit - those who don't need it are the best at qualifying.

The dealer would rather get the lower interest, and you are indeed correct that those most likely to need the credit are the ones least likely to qualify. It's a sad, sad game, one that keeps many people from being able to get a firm footing in life when having to rely on public transit that, in many areas, runs less than half the day and not always on Sundays. Less than half the day as the window to work and one day on the weekend, and, if no evening transit is available, no classes to gain skills.

Someone driving that clapped out Civic probably can't get a loan or couldn't afford the monthly payments and full-coverage insurance (versus the cheaper liability-only coverage).

[falls]

The problem is that some people can't afford it. Do the estimated include the mileage driven while on battery or only what's driven on gas? Since most driving is done at lower speeds in cities, most miles are on battery for the typical driver. Yet the total gone on one gallon including lower speeds versus driven on gas alone would be substantially different.

In a Prius (I can't speak for other hybrids because I haven't driven any) the car is constantly switching back and forth between battery and gas power. So the mileage estimates do not differentiate between the two. I drive in mostly semirural/city combo driving and, in the summer, average around 50mpg city and 53mpg highway. Now that it is colder I am average around 45mpg city and 50mpg highway. That is lower than the EPA estimates but when you compare the EPA estimates vs. reality for pretty much any car (I would say all but I'm sure somebody will claim to have a car that is an exception) there is a variance. A lot of people get much better mpg (check out PriusChat (http://www.priuschat.com)to see what kind of mileage people can get) than I do.

Hybrids aren't for everybody. I can understand that not everybody can afford them and that people may not like them for other reasons (i.e., style, getting to drive in HOV lanes, etc.) I do, however, try to (nicely) point out hybrid myths (e.g., limited driving range) and odd expectations (e.g., must "earn back" their costs.) As somebody whose household includes both a Prius and an Explorer, I am definitely not a pious Prius owner :)

[cwerdna]

Hybirds are crap in my opinion. But that's just my opinion.

Also, they are freaking death traps man. In the extrication and rescue class for fireman and other emergency personell, they will tell you about all the large wires that will continue to hold a charge, that make it almost impossible to cut apart.

So if you are in a wreck, and the dash is crushed and pinning you in, we can't do a normal dash roll, we have to take a lot more time, double check for wires, use different methods, etc.

There was even an incident were a hybrid wrecked and shorted out, charging the body of the car. A fireman walked up and touched the body, and was killed.
...
I know a guy who has a 79 Chevy K5 Blazer, 4x4, lifted, with a 350 v8 in it. It has well over 300hp, and gets around 30 mp

Sounds like a bunch of the usual anti-hybrid FUD that I see. Have you looked at http://techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/1stprius.pdf and http://techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/2ndprius.pdf?

In the latter case, what kind of driving cycle are you quoting? I SERIOUSLY doubt it'd get 30 mpg in the city or even in mixed driving. From http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/buyingleasing/most-fuelefficient-cars-206/index.htm, the #7 car, a Honda Civic EX manual gets only 22 city but gets 40 highway in Consumer Reports' testing.

In the December 06 issue of Consumer Reports, they reviewed new budget cars: Honda Fit, Nissan Versa, Kia Rio, Hyundai Accent and Toyota Yaris. The ones w/the best mileage w/manuals were the Fit and Yaris. The best mileage automatic was the Yaris. Here are their figures vs.the Prius (see above as well for the same Prius numbers) in the format overall city/highway:
Fit manual 34 26/39
Yaris manual 34 26/42
Yaris auto 33 23/44
Prius CVT 44 35/50

The Fit and Yaris only have 109 hp and 106 hp engines respectively.

[cwerdna]

Do the estimated include the mileage driven while on battery or only what's driven on gas? Since most driving is done at lower speeds in cities, most miles are on battery for the typical driver. Yet the total gone on one gallon including lower speeds versus driven on gas alone would be substantially different.
Your question is confusing. What are you asking?

The Prius' max speed on electric only is 42 mph. Above that, the gas engine must run, but the electric motors can provide and do provide assistance. The Prius' HV battery isn't very large so it can't run on electric only for a long distance (<3 miles or so). You also have to be pretty light on the gas pedal to keep it in electric only and the gas engine will turn on in the case of even somewhat hard acceleration or the battery running too low.

From my original post, this is what Consumer Reports got when they tested the Prius. It also includes 10 other of the most fuel efficient cars they tested at the time http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/buyingleasing/most-fuelefficient-cars-206/index.htm. As for EPA #s, see http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml and http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml for how vehicles are tested. The test makes no distinction between hybrids or non-hybrids as it was devised way before they existed.

Note: They do NOT measure the amount of fuel consumed, but from the 1st URL "A hose is connected to the tailpipe to collect the engine exhaust.

The amount of carbon in the exhaust is measured to calculate the amount of fuel used during the test.

This is more accurate than using a fuel gauge."

I've read that it's the amount of unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023460 is a condensed version of an article in Consumer Reports on the discrepancy between EPA mileage estimates and real world #s. In particular, it notes "Shortfalls in mpg occurred in 90 percent of vehicles we tested and included most makes and models."

BTW, these nutty guys (http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/a/100mpgrecord.htm and http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm) achieved ~110 mpg in an Prius (no, it wasnt modified via more/bigger battery packs). But, it's not at all a practical way to drive.

[eek]

Any car, when driven exceptionally carefully, can compete with the likes of hybrids. Infact, any car driven anally enough, will outclass hybrids.

Part 1:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Br6qPRpKqRU

Part 2:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yo6U4yKA16k