Apple vs. Adobe

[daikun]

If this topic has been brought up before, sorry. I did a search and didn't find anything regarding this news.

Steve Jobs has recently shut the door in Adobe's face just when they've released their latest Creative Suite. Basically, he has decided to ban Flash from its mobile devices, (http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash) a controversial choice that's causing quite a shakeup and lots of debate in the tech world.

Yes, he does bring up some good points. Flash is buggy, expensive, and strict on licenses. Adobe is slow to updating on current technologies, their tech support largely ignores user requests, and they still have yet to deliver on their continuing promises of functioning Flash technology on mobile phones, Apple or otherwise.

However, there are also some problems with this decision. Steve makes claims about wanting his devices to be "open" and sharing a "full web experience" when this decision is the exact opposite of his statements. (Click here to read a rebuttal. (http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-is-lying-about-flash-2010-4))

How can a platform be "open" when you're outright refusing to allow support for other companies' products? (On a similar note, their mobile app marketplaces are heavily restricted compared to their more open competitors.) How can you deliver a "full web experience" when Flash accounts for a large portion of the Internet's functions that other standards can't provide? Lots of websites can't even work on most mobile devices, simply because Flash is blocked off.

What do you guys think? Has Steve Jobs made the right decision? Should Flash be allowed on mobile devices?

[tokenuser]

Yes.
No.

Move HTML5 support forward ASAP. All major browsers latest releases support HTML5. No plugins needed for video - be it Flash or Silverlight ... just open standards.

Flash games are an issue. Lots of people play them. Facebook would be a desert without them ... but HTML5 supports a lot of the notions used in Flash, so it would translate well.

Flash doesn't makes sense for anything except movies on touch devices. As Steve rightly said, Flash is designed for last century WIMP interfaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP_(computing)) (look it up). We are rapidly moving beyond the mouse and into haptic interfaces that Flash just does not embody.

But, this isn't Apple vs Adobe. Last time I checked Adobe products still ran on Macintosh desktop/laptop hardware, and Mac users account for over 60% of Adobe revenue. I'd guess those users don't really care about Flash too much.

However, I am with Steve on the Flash on the iPhone OS idea. It would suck. Flash based apps need to be designed to the lowest common denominator to run across all devices. That is not the "iPhone Experience" Apple want you to have. Native applications have access to a lot of resources that Flash doesn't - so they look and feel consistent.

As a developer, taking the Flash route is an easy way to cross populate your app on multiple platforms, but there is no way of monetising the product. Security is a joke. Its buggy and prone to crashes. Fixing for one platform breaks another - and it might not be your code, but the implementaiton of the Flash interpreter. Its not a great experience, but if thats your thing (generic you) - knock yourself out, there is still a market for Flash apps on the Android.

I have thrown my hat into the iPhone dev world. I wont be using or support Flash in near future. It had its place, and helped standardise content across competing browsers - but that time has passed. Its time Adobe looked to the future instead of rehashing the past.

[phatlip]

My thoughts on HTML5:

*It's the way of the future but it has a long way to go.

*It is an EMERGING standard. What does that mean? It's not a standard yet. It will be, but it's still being worked on.

*So goes Microsoft, so goes the industry. Like it or not, Internet Explorer is the number one browser people use. HTML5 is going to be supported in IE9. But there are still a lot of people running very OLD versions of IE. I'm talking IE 6 & IE 7. Don't expect the industry to cater to HTML5 when the majority of browsers won't utilize it because people are too stupid to upgrade their browsers. Why bother implementing HTML5 when the majority of your user base is running an outdated browser that doesn't support HTML5? I don't like it either, but it's the inconvenient truth.

As I said, it's the way of the future. It just has a long way to go. Until then, Flash is the unfortunate solution.


Steve made a lot of good points and I agree with much of his critical analysis. Although I feel this way, I still fail to see why this shouldn't be the consumers choice. I'm not sure a good argument exists. Okay, lets say Flash sucks on the iPhone. Who cares? A lot of apps suck for the iPhone. If it sucks people won't use it. I don't expect Apple to ship the phone with Flash pre-installed. But it should be up to the user if they want it on their phone. "It sucks" isn't a good enough answer.

[daikun]

Coming from the latest Diggnation:

Android 2.2 will support fully functional Flash. (http://mashable.com/2010/04/27/android-flash)

Either Steve is going to be red in the face, or he's going to be happy to have someone else pick up the pieces.

[tokenuser]

Coming from the latest Diggnation:

Android 2.2 will support fully functional Flash. (http://mashable.com/2010/04/27/android-flash)

Either Steve is going to be red in the face, or he's going to be happy to have someone else pick up the pieces.That's great - except ...

Unlike the rapidly deployed updates Apple posts for the iPhone OS through iTunes, Android users are unlikely (and often unable) to apply the latest updates to their phones, according to new information published by Google and its AdMob subsidiary.

[Source (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/05/01/android_users_not_upgrading_their_os_to_the_latest _version.html)]

So, I guess those Android users are SOL anyway.

[phatlip]

That's great - except ...



[Source (http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/05/01/android_users_not_upgrading_their_os_to_the_latest _version.html)]

So, I guess those Android users are SOL anyway.

Not really, because at the very least it's possible and new Android phones will be released which support Flash. At least it's a possibility on Android. Not so much on the iPhone. Older Android phones won't be able to run Flash in the same sense that older iPhones won't be able to multitask this summer. So those old iPhone users are SOL anyway when it comes to multitasking. ;) Older hardware/software loses support after a while. It's a fact of life.

Token, why do you think it shouldn't be up to the user? I agree with you in saying HTML5 is the way of the future. I just don't understand why you feel it shouldn't be the users choice.

[tokenuser]

Token, why do you think it shouldn't be up to the user? I agree with you in saying HTML5 is the way of the future. I just don't understand why you feel it shouldn't be the users choice.I think a user should have a choice - its a lousy experience, but they should have that choice.

However, I agree with what Steve said about Flash. I don't think that those views are contradictory at all.

Images and video are the two big items that Flash handles well on the web. HTML5 does each of those.

Flash menus aren't going to work - the interface doesn't work well with a touch interface.

Flash games are going to be a bitch to control as well. They rely upon a mouse, and touch/gesture input isn't accurate enough for granular control.

So - Steve choosing not to suport Flash is a good idea. Should users be able to choose? Maybe ... but in this case I think Steve is saving them form themselves.

As for the Android upgrades - I think it is interesting that most Android users dont upgrade their OS. A big part of that is that the handset and carrier features are different and fragment the market, so there is no real standard OS out there.

[computoman]

The user interfaces are different not the os per se. I can take a linux os and allow it to look like any of desktops just by adding and removing packages. One place where most people do not understand linux. I will admit I am not a fan of flash either. If it was truly open, it would have been fixed by now. As for adobe, so many people that were flag waving for it have all of the sudden changed their flag as if Big Steve commanded it. .Seems real two faced. Html5 is too young to judge. I think if the proprietary interests stay out of it, all will be fine. I feel for people who can not juggle more than one ball at a time. Now google wants to do their own thing also.