Adolf Obama at it again.....

[computoman]

When is private private?

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/09/government-seeks
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/10/06/fiorefriendly.DTL

[tokenuser]

Try reading the original New York Times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/us/27wiretap.html?_r=1

In typical fashion that unfortunately reflects the direction the EFF has taken in recent years, the republish a story that strips the facts and keeps the sensationalized.

I have mixed reactions to the expanded wiretap proposal (because that is what this is ... Keeping the existing laws up with technology), but absolutely hate what the EFF has become.

[phatlip]

Could you please stop making a mockery of the millions of people killed in WW2? You do it all the time and it's highly offensive. You don't like Obama. We get that. But he's not throwing baby's in ovens. So stop making the Nazi comparisons, unless you're fine with saying the holocaust was no big deal. In short, grow the hell up, and learn some history.

PS. And no, I didn't even bother clicking your links. Respect the holocaust, learn some history, act your age, and then we'll talk.

[tehboris]

Who is Adolf Obama?

[masherscf]

The Ayatollah used to regularity identify Ronald Reagan to Hilter. All this, despite that the Ayatollah was both ideologically and politically closer to Hitler in every way.

[tokenuser]

The Ayatollah used to regularity identify Ronald Reagan to Hilter. All this, despite that the Ayatollah was both ideologically and politically closer to Hitler in every way.I still have a hard time with people making the Hitler references ... while they ignore the obvious Barack HUSSEIN Obama. Its always the Hitler mustache drawn on Obama photos, never the bushy Saddam Hussein mo'.

[tehboris]

I still have a hard time with people making the Hitler references ... while they ignore the obvious Barack HUSSEIN Obama. Its always the Hitler mustache drawn on Obama photos, never the bushy Saddam Hussein mo'.

You mean the Chaplin mustache.

[magicmisles]

Could you please stop making a mockery of the millions of people killed in WW2? You do it all the time and it's highly offensive. You don't like Obama. We get that. But he's not throwing baby's in ovens. So stop making the Nazi comparisons, unless you're fine with saying the holocaust was no big deal. In short, grow the hell up, and learn some history.

PS. And no, I didn't even bother clicking your links. Respect the holocaust, learn some history, act your age, and then we'll talk.

Thank you phatlip. Seriously. Your posts here are a constant reminder that there are some in the US who remain with two feet firmly on the ground instead of floating further and further from reality using wacky analogies like the OP's post title.

[originalglitch]

Could you please stop making a mockery of the millions of people killed in WW2? You do it all the time and it's highly offensive. You don't like Obama. We get that. But he's not throwing baby's in ovens. So stop making the Nazi comparisons, unless you're fine with saying the holocaust was no big deal. In short, grow the hell up, and learn some history.

PS. And no, I didn't even bother clicking your links. Respect the holocaust, learn some history, act your age, and then we'll talk.
*Waits for Comps response that will never come.*

[zeo]

Generally, the President should be respected even if you disagree with their policies. Pertaining to the actual topic though...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/27/us/27wiretap.html?_r=1

I have mixed reactions to the expanded wiretap proposal (because that is what this is ... Keeping the existing laws up with technology)

So long as they keep legal requirements and not simply impose an open ended license to tap anything they want then I think most people will be okay with this but would be better if they can add some protections against potential abuse.

Being too vague and open ended is its present problem and why it'll get resistance...

[tehboris]

I read the article....I think that a little true is there... but it is forced to compare Obama with Hitler

Compare Barrack Obama to a mass murder, Christan, racist and the cause of the most loss of life since the middle ages?

[phatlip]

I read the article....I think that a little true is there... but it is forced to compare Obama with Hitler

Then you need to buy a history book.

[tokenuser]

Then you need to buy a history book.I think his history is fine, but that English is not his native language. "Forced" means it is hard to justify. Perfectly fine English - especially if you learnt English English - but not an expression you hear many American English speakers use.

[computoman]

My step-father (now deceased) actually saw the death camps and talked to the Germans who were apart of it. It was very real. He brought back pictures. They make me throw up at the sight of them, It is amazing if you study history the coincidences between how the u.s is now and how Germany was before WWII. I do not want the US to make that same mistake again. History is doomed to repeat itself, so you have to remain vigilant. One of the reasons that Germany became so screwed up is because people were afraid to speak up. If the references seem cruel, I am sorry sometimes you just have to tell it like it is. I know things about my own ancestors that make me want to cringe. Another reason I fight so hard for the truth.

[kzap]

Could you please stop making a mockery of the millions of people killed in WW2? You do it all the time and it's highly offensive. You don't like Obama. We get that. But he's not throwing baby's in ovens. So stop making the Nazi comparisons, unless you're fine with saying the holocaust was no big deal. In short, grow the hell up, and learn some history.

PS. And no, I didn't even bother clicking your links. Respect the holocaust, learn some history, act your age, and then we'll talk.
Adolf is a common first name, why do you assume he was talking about Hitler?
If anything you're the one with WWII on the mind. You sick man!
[/trolling]
Sorry, couldn't help it.

[tokenuser]

Another reason I fight so hard for the truth.the problem is that you go off half cocked because of partial truths - the sensationalized parts of the truth - without looking at the whole picture.

[jd1138]

the problem is that you go off half cocked because of partial truths - the sensationalized parts of the truth - without looking at the whole picture.

That's what's so difficult about internet discussions. A lot of people don't apply the same rigorous standards of logic and rhetoric as they (hopefully) would in real life. It's only slightly more painful to repeatedly bang one's head up against a wall rather than have an intellectual debate in an internet forum.

[bobv13]

That's what's so difficult about internet discussions. A lot of people don't apply the same rigorous standards of logic and rhetoric as they (hopefully) would in real life. It's only slightly more painful to repeatedly bang one's head up against a wall rather than have an intellectual debate in an internet forum.

Sad but many don't apply rigorous standards in real fife either

[tokenuser]

Sad but many don't apply rigorous standards in real fife either*cough*tea baggers*cough*

[secret-steve-crumbles]

Generally, the President should be respected even if you disagree with their policies.I wish someone would tell Obama this. Maybe the Bush insults would stop from him. Maybe he missed the memo because he was on the back 9.

[phatlip]

I wish someone would tell Obama this. Maybe the Bush insults would stop from him. Maybe he missed the memo because he was on the back 9.

How has Obama insulted Bush? He was critical of his policies, but I see nothing wrong with that. That's politics.

[bobv13]

*cough*tea baggers*cough*

and it also applies to those who categorically dismiss all Tea Partiers or their ideas. They can't even refer to them by their chosen name. It's a shame really.

[tokenuser]

Unfortunately many of those who ascribe themselves as tea party members have no clue about the issues they are up in arms about. All they know is that Glenn beck and his ilk say that anything left of religious conservatism is bad.

Nothing wrong with being a conservative, but being a blind tea bagger shows no knowledge of the issues at hand. Bumper stickers and placards are not demonstrated knowledge of policy.

[zeo]

Unfortunately many of those who ascribe themselves as tea party members have no clue about the issues they are up in arms about.

There is no evidence of this, you're stating an opinion as fact. Fact is a lot of people of whatever political affiliation need to educate themselves on the issues more. Singling out any one group simply because you disagree with them only shows bias and doesn't address the actual issues and what people actually do and don't know.

One thing people may not like Glenn Beck but at least he tells people up front don't just believe him, look it up yourself. You still don't agree with him after that then fine but it's not like he's blankly asking people to only assume everything he says is correct. So even if he gets things wrong at least he's getting people interested and get them to educate themselves on the issues.

[phatlip]

There is no evidence of this, you're stating an opinion as fact. Fact is a lot of people of whatever political affiliation need to educate themselves on the issues more. Singling out any one group simply because you disagree with them only shows bias and doesn't address the actual issues and what people actually do and don't know.

One thing people may not like Glenn Beck but at least he tells people up front don't just believe him, look it up yourself. You still don't agree with him after that then fine but it's not like he's blankly asking people to only assume everything he says is correct. So even if he gets things wrong at least he's getting people interested and get them to educate themselves on the issues.

Alright, but come on. I think it's difficult to deny there are a lot of uninformed people at these things. All you have to do is read their signs. I've seen this first hand at a local tea party.

I know you wont believe me, but I'm not saying that because they share different beliefs than I. I've said on many occasions that I think the tea party had a legit message, but was overtaken by the GOP for their own political gain. But if you can get passed the BS and down to the LIBERTARIAN message (which are the true origins of the tea party), I think they have some valid points. But damn, there's an OVERWHELMING amount of misinformed people. And they appeared around the same time the GOP started using the tea party as a campaign tool.

Ps. Yes Glenn Beck does that. He says look it up yourself and then gives the audience the most incredibly ridiculous source for reference. My mother and I were watching Beck for teh lulz today, and he did exactly this. His reference? A Nazi Eugenics book. Yep.

[tokenuser]

There is no evidence of this, you're stating an opinion as fact. Fact is a lot of people of whatever political affiliation need to educate themselves on the issues more. Singling out any one group simply because you disagree with them only shows bias and doesn't address the actual issues and what people actually do and don't know.I am singling out one group because they are obnoxiously vocal and mostly clueless drones looking for someone to blame.

Not all of them. Just most of them.

Glenn Beck (who I believe is actually a master salesman) telling people if they dont believe him to look it up is feeding on the fact that he is being open gives him authority and credibility ... and that most people will just trust him, because he is so certain of his facts that the must be indisputable. Don't believe me? Read "Selling the Invisible" by Harry Beckwith. Beck leads people to believe that they have "pain points" and that he has a solution for them. Truth is, he is fabricating the pain points to present a solution.

[dtsmucker]

My step-father (now deceased) actually saw the death camps and talked to the Germans who were apart of it. It was very real. He brought back pictures. They make me throw up at the sight of them, It is amazing if you study history the coincidences between how the u.s is now and how Germany was before WWII. I do not want the US to make that same mistake again. History is doomed to repeat itself, so you have to remain vigilant. One of the reasons that Germany became so screwed up is because people were afraid to speak up. If the references seem cruel, I am sorry sometimes you just have to tell it like it is. I know things about my own ancestors that make me want to cringe. Another reason I fight so hard for the truth.

"I fight so hard for the truth"?.. You have no idea...

[zeo]

I am singling out one group because they are obnoxiously vocal and mostly clueless drones looking for someone to blame.

Not all of them. Just most of them.

Glenn Beck (who I believe is actually a master salesman) telling people if they dont believe him to look it up is feeding on the fact that he is being open gives him authority and credibility ... and that most people will just trust him, because he is so certain of his facts that the must be indisputable. Don't believe me? Read "Selling the Invisible" by Harry Beckwith. Beck leads people to believe that they have "pain points" and that he has a solution for them. Truth is, he is fabricating the pain points to present a solution.

Again opinion, which you are trying to describe as fact. The majority of people who identify themselves as Tea Party have never been interviewed or questioned. And pretty much every single accusation about them has been shown to be just people trying to discredit them because they don't like the message they are sending. Hell, they're barely even a political party, as it's more of a rallying message than a political organization.

Really, people can disagree without considering the other to be less than equal just because they disagree. Yet both this topic and political discussion have all around been degrading to name calling and making personal attacks against those of opposing views.

And fine, you don't trust Beck but he doesn't say he's right. Being open, even if you disagree with everything he says, still gives the desired result of people to get their heads in the game and start paying attention to what's going on. After that they can at least give an informed decision instead of what we've been doing for over a decade and letting the politicians of both sides do whatever they wanted and that's more than I see anyone else doing at the moment.

I disagree with you though because I see getting people to seek the truth for themselves is not master manipulation, it's the opposite.

Master manipulation is telling people what to think and giving them no way of knowing any better, like revisionist history altering school text books, etc. So only one point of view is ever given...

[bobv13]

Again opinion, which you are trying to describe as fact. The majority of people who identify themselves as Tea Party have never been interviewed or questioned. And pretty much every single accusation about them has been shown to be just people trying to discredit them because they don't like the message they are sending. Hell, they're barely even a political party, as it's more of a rallying message than a political organization.

Really, people can disagree without considering the other to be less than equal just because they disagree. Yet both this topic and political discussion have all around been degrading to name calling and making personal attacks against those of opposing views.

And fine, you don't trust Beck but he doesn't say he's right. Being open, even if you disagree with everything he says, still gives the desired result of people to get their heads in the game and start paying attention to what's going on. After that they can at least give an informed decision instead of what we've been doing for over a decade and letting the politicians of both sides do whatever they wanted and that's more than I see anyone else doing at the moment.

I disagree with you though because I see getting people to seek the truth for themselves is not master manipulation, it's the opposite.

Master manipulation is telling people what to think and giving them no way of knowing any better, like revisionist history altering school text books, etc. So only one point of view is ever given...

aahh a voice of reason

I was at a local political rally almost a year ago. There were maybe six speakers, physically diverse by any one's standards. young old black white male female... Most talk was about out of control spending. The crowd was more white male and over 40 and I'm sure conservative. There was one fool passing out of the crowd of about 400+ that was handing out the "Obama is not an America" paper. As far as I could see he was mostly ignored. I was there in part to learn what the group was all about. I found the group diverse in their ideas but mostly upset about the turn to the left the state had seemingly taken. But what stuck with me was although there was an overall conservative theme there was no one size fits all. It was a loose group of conservatives upset with their government.

Oh but what did the news report? They reported on the one wacko in the crowd and categorically dismissed the the rally and everyone there.

[cupajo]

and it also applies to those who categorically dismiss all Tea Partiers or their ideas. They can't even refer to them by their chosen name. It's a shame really.

TeaParty people don't have ideas. They have shouting.

[phatlip]

Oh but what did the news report? They reported on the one wacko in the crowd and categorically dismissed the the rally and everyone there.

Perhaps because the crowd did nothing to dismiss the wacko themselves? Guilt by association. I don't associate myself with wacko's.

[zeo]

Perhaps because the crowd did nothing to dismiss the wacko themselves? Guilt by association. I don't associate myself with wacko's.

Many times these Wackos are exorcised but some of these Wackos are persistent and what were they suppose to do then? Lynch the guy?

Fact is there are wackos in every political group, but you can't judge an entire group on just a few wackos otherwise you, me, everyone will be guilty by association no matter how far separate we are from the wacko. Like how are you suppose to stop someone doing something stupid on the other side of the country? Never mind violating someone else's freedom of speech or risking assault charges if you actually take matters into your own hands by so much as pushing them out of the way.

Then the opposing side can point to how violent you are or how intolerant you are...

No, that's just lazy politics of dismissing people you don't agree with by finding an excuse instead of arguing the points and dealing with actual logic.

Really, when you rather believe hearsay than what people actually think then you've already made up your mind and are only pretending to argue while you justify your position by any means necessary.

Reasonable people can disagree and debate the issues, and even if they never agree as long as they are truthful and honest about their positions then they can respect each other and leave it to the majority to decide which position is right or at least followed. Only people obsessed with thinking its their way or else resort to these tactics and all it ends up doing is avoiding the actual issues and dividing the people. Unfortunately, these days that's politics as usual...

[phatlip]

Many times these Wackos are exorcised but some of these Wackos are persistent and what were they suppose to do then? Lynch the guy?

Fact is there are wackos in every political group, but you can't judge an entire group on just a few wackos otherwise you, me, everyone will be guilty by association no matter how far separate we are from the wacko. Like how are you suppose to stop someone doing something stupid on the other side of the country? Never mind violating someone else's freedom of speech or risking assault charges if you actually take matters into your own hands by so much as pushing them out of the way.

Then the opposing side can point to how violent you are or how intolerant you are...

No, that's just lazy politics of dismissing people you don't agree with by finding an excuse instead of arguing the points and dealing with actual logic.

Really, when you rather believe hearsay than what people actually think then you've already made up your mind and are only pretending to argue while you justify your position by any means necessary.

Reasonable people can disagree and debate the issues, and even if they never agree as long as they are truthful and honest about their positions then they can respect each other and leave it to the majority to decide which position is right or at least followed. Only people obsessed with thinking its their way or else resort to these tactics and all it ends up doing is avoiding the actual issues and dividing the people. Unfortunately, these days that's politics as usual...

You speak out against it. It's not that hard. This is precisely how things like this should be handled. I actually praised this video (http://revision3.com/forum/showpost.php?p=451086&postcount=141) right here on these very forums during the election.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl2EndLZv7w

That's it. I realize there are extremists on each side of the spectrum. But you don't stand shoulder and shoulder with them. You don't remain silent. You speak out against them. Otherwise, I'm going to assume him and those around him feel the same way.

[zeo]

You speak out against it. It's not that hard.

Speaking out and shutting the wacko up are two different things. Especially if whoever is reporting the incident doesn't bother reporting whether the wacko was ever dealt with. Or whether the wacko only spoke up when the cameras were there to catch them.

Never mind, have you ever been to a rally? Unless you're next to the person or they got a loud speaker then you aren't likely to know what the hell he/she is saying with everyone else shouting too.

Also opposing rallies can be right next to each other and it gets even more confusing if both are marching about.

A persistent wacko can just bob in and out all day long. It's not like people hire security when they go to a rally and cops are just concerned with keeping the peace.

All of which doesn't change that all this does is distract from the issues and makes a real debate almost impossible.

[phatlip]

Speaking out and shutting the wacko up are two different things. Especially if whoever is reporting the incident doesn't bother reporting whether the wacko was ever dealt with. Or whether the wacko only spoke up when the cameras were there to catch them.

Never mind, have you ever been to a rally? Unless you're next to the person or they got a loud speaker then you aren't likely to know what the hell he/she is saying with everyone else shouting too.

Also opposing rallies can be right next to each other and it gets even more confusing if both are marching about.

A persistent wacko can just bob in and out all day long. It's not like people hire security when they go to a rally and cops are just concerned with keeping the peace.

All of which doesn't change that all this does is distract from the issues and makes a real debate almost impossible.

As I already explained to you, yes, I went to a local event. All you have to do is look at the signs people are holding to pick out all of the wackos. And yes, I include people in the wacko category who consider the President of the United States a Socialist, Communist, Fascist, Muslim etc. And anyone who's ever been to one of these things personally can attest that signs like this are all over the place. At the very least, you'll find overwhelming support behind the idea that the President is a socialist. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if you yourself believed the same.

So I repeat. If nothing is done to speak out against the wacko's, I'm going to assume everyone feels the same. Especially when the majority at the rally are holding the same damn sign as the crazy guy.

[zeo]

As I already explained to you, yes, I went to a local event. All you have to do is look at the signs people are holding to pick out all of the wackos.

And as I explained it's not always easy to spot these Wackos. Like how do you think they can get in to yell at the President?

And there are Wackos who intentionally try to discredit a given group by pretending to be one of them and then show their true colors only when the cameras are on them.

And again it's all just a distraction from the actual issues. Especially if that wacko is nowhere near you and they still wind up associating them with you. It happens.

[phatlip]

And as I explained it's not always easy to spot these Wackos. Like how do you think they can get in to yell at the President?

And there are Wackos who intentionally try to discredit a given group by pretending to be one of them and then show their true colors only when the cameras are on them.

And again it's all just a distraction from the actual issues. Especially if that wacko is nowhere near you and they still wind up associating them with you. It happens.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said to simply read the signs around you? I don't care if it's a right wing nut job or a lefty there for the lulz. Speak out against it. If you don't, it's assumed you feel the same.

I agree it's a distraction from the real issues. All the more reason the people who are true to the cause should speak out against the wackos. Unless of course you like having important political issues that you value turned into a mockery. You have the choice of remaining silent and standing shoulder to shoulder with these people while being thrown into the same category as them and hurting your own political movement, or you can speak out against them, show thats not what the tea party is all about, and actually make a difference.

If not willing to speak out against the wackos to appease the left that's fine, but at the very least speak out so that your own political message isn't made a mockery of. Remaining silent is bad for everyone, but especially those in the tea party with legitimate concerns.

*When I'm use the term you I'm no referring to you specifically.*

[zeo]

Perhaps you missed the part where I said to simply read the signs around you? I don't care if it's a right wing nut job or a lefty there for the lulz. Speak out against it. If you don't, it's assumed you feel the same.

Didn't miss it, just pointing out it's not that simple. Especially with thousands of people around you. It's impossible for you to notice every single sign and most people at these rallies are there for themselves and what they believe. Someone really has to stick out to be noticed and again some wait till the cameras are pointed at them before they show their true colors and then the cameras go on before anyone really has time to react.


I agree it's a distraction from the real issues. All the more reason the people who are true to the cause should speak out against the wackos.

No, I get it and agree that wackos need to be shown to not represent the group. Problem is the Tea Party have, but the media by and large only reports the negative so everyone gets only one side. You can tell because if they hadn't then they would have reported that as well instead of just silence.

Like one politicians who turned out to be a bit of a wacko got clearly ostracized by the Tea Party people but it hardly got any news coverage. Just to show one example of how the media tends to only show the negative but not the positive.

It also doesn't help the Tea Party doesn't have a specific leader, no one voice for all the people involved, since it's more a movement than a political group, which also makes it hard for anyone not involved to know how they react to such situations.

Really, not to sound overly redundant but there are wackos in every organization. The difference is we don't always see how those organizations deal with them. So it's always dangerous to jump to conclusions and listen to just hearsay.

But whether you agree or disagree with the Tea Party isn't my relevant point. My main point is just like the naming of this topic, everyone payed more attention to it than the actual issues. There are actual legit disagreements on the policies of this administration but inflammatory language from either side just distracts. And unfortunately much of that's a tactic often used these days on purpose that makes arguing the actual issues almost impossible and leaves people to vote without knowing all the facts.

So we either let ourselves continue to be distracted or we move on and try to actually figure out how to improve the situation.

[secret-steve-crumbles]

http://1dl.us/128847280737917.png

[phatlip]

Didn't miss it, just pointing out it's not that simple. Especially with thousands of people around you. It's impossible for you to notice every single sign and most people at these rallies are there for themselves and what they believe. Someone really has to stick out to be noticed and again some wait till the cameras are pointed at them before they show their true colors and then the cameras go on before anyone really has time to react.

I agree. I don't expect that every outlandish sign be identified. But then again, if the number of outlandish signs are truly so high that they're difficult to address, doesn't that sort of shed some light onto the statement Token made earlier? That's part of the problem. There are so many signs like this. When you have as many people holding signs like these at these events with no one speaking out against them, it becomes really difficult to suggest these are just a few bad apples.

The problem is what Token eluded to earlier. We're not dealing with a few bad apples here. The problem is that a significant number of people in the crowd agree with the same wacko's we're talking about here. That's why you see so many signs like the ones we're discussing, and that's why you almost never see anyone speak out against it. That's my reasoning. I'm sorry, but there's just no excuse for this. It's not as difficult as you're suggesting. The person with the microphone speaking at the event has the power to say something. As does everyone in the crowd who feels differently. The problem is for the most part, they don't feel differently.


No, I get it and agree that wackos need to be shown to not represent the group. Problem is the Tea Party have, but the media by and large only reports the negative so everyone gets only one side. You can tell because if they hadn't then they would have reported that as well instead of just silence.

While I'm not denying there's a bias when the media reports the tea party, I don't believe that's the issue. I think a lot of what is said is valid. I'll explain why. Take Fox News for instance. They obviously favor the right, and report on the Tea Party in a very positive manor. With that said, you see the SAME SIGNS in the coverage on Fox News. The difference? They agree with the whacky crap on the signs! Which is further proof that we're not dealing with some bad Apples. We're dealing with common beliefs held by a significant number of people who attend these things. I have a personal example too. One of my friends is President of the Young Republican club, and is running as the Republican nomination for the Delegate race in my district. While browsing the Young Republican Club's Flickr, I found photos of people holding signs like the ones we're discussing. One gentlemen even had a sign that said "Interrogate all Muslims and Liberals". There's not liberal bias here, this was proudly hosted on the Young Republican Clubs Flickr page. Further proof that the problem isn't bias from the liberal media, but that we're dealing with acceptable, and common beliefs among these folks.


Really, not to sound overly redundant but there are wackos in every organization. The difference is we don't always see how those organizations deal with them. So it's always dangerous to jump to conclusions and listen to just hearsay.

I completely agree with that first part 100%. You see it in all politics. Left and right. You see it in Religion. You see it in sports. Hell, you see it when you debate Mac Vs. Windows Vs. Linux with geeks on web forums. It's a part of life. The problem is how it's being delt with in this situation, which I elaborated on above (what I said about the number of occurrences of these whacky signs, remaining silent, and what I said about common beliefs).


But whether you agree or disagree with the Tea Party isn't my relevant point. My main point is just like the naming of this topic, everyone payed more attention to it than the actual issues. There are actual legit disagreements on the policies of this administration but inflammatory language from either side just distracts. And unfortunately much of that's a tactic often used these days on purpose that makes arguing the actual issues almost impossible and leaves people to vote without knowing all the facts.

So we either let ourselves continue to be distracted or we move on and try to actually figure out how to improve the situation.

Honestly? That's my main concern. I feel there are legit issues that are being overlooked. My hope is that the Tea Party gets its act together, and realize that although people may disagree with them that they're not Hitler. And don't get me wrong, the left needs to get it's shit together too. In general, politics have gotten really nasty in this country these past couple of years. That's what I loved about John Stewarts rally today. I know it seems like I'm picking on the tea party, and I'm not denying my bias towards the left isn't influenced by that. I'm just focusing on them more because they're the predominant group at the time, and it's a common trend you see among them. But totally, BOTH sides need to grow the hell up.

[phatlip]

http://1dl.us/128847280737917.png

Story of my life my man, story of my life.

:D

[zeo]

The problem is what Token eluded to earlier. We're not dealing with a few bad apples here. The problem is that a significant number of people in the crowd agree with the same wacko's we're talking about here.

Significant by what count though? There are literally millions of people associating themselves with the Tea Party. They even cross party lines. Enough to even effect some election results. But the media never covers the entire crowd and there are typically thousands at every rally. In fact some of these so called media outlets showed the same 10 people just saying different things and showing them in different order to represent the entire crowd.

The selection of signs is also selective, not showing the anti-GOP signs for example. So that too lop-sides the perspective to make it seem the Tea Party is only angry at DEM's when they're really angry at all politicians.

Also consider all the Tea Party rallies have been peaceful, pretty much every reported instance of violence turned out to be either false or not related to the Tea Party or directed at the Tea Party...

So I think judgment on them should be tempered by the apparent effort to show them only in a negative light.

Sure, they're angry... Kinda the point that they represent people not happy with the way things are going and the way the politicians are handling things. Just like the original Tea Party but you can't just judge a whole segment of the population for the actions of a few.

The problem is the media has been trying to show all of them to be loons when they are not. The media doesn't show when they do deal with the Wackos, so you're left to assume they don't.

Really, even before anyone had much of an idea what the Tea Party represented they were already calling them bigots, racists and saying they are violent and calling for violence. Yet every Tea Party rally has been remarkably peaceful.

If the Tea Party did have a serious problem with wackos then do you really think the media wouldn't have harped on that and used it to help discredit them?


One gentlemen even had a sign that said "Interrogate all Muslims and Liberals".
And I can point to liberal websites that say just as bad or worse things. Pointing to opposite ends of the political spectrum isn't proving your point. It's just taking other extreme examples are trying to portray them as mainstream.

Individual people put up many of these sites and their level of saneness varies and can't be used to represent all who may be of the same party.

Otherwise it's the same as calling all DEM's the same regardless of the range of conservatives to liberals there are... You're still basing your judgment on the actions of the few and saying that directly reflects on the vast majority. Most of whom are only responsible for their own personal actions, since as pointed out before the Tea Party is more of a movement than a political group.

Really, do you go out of your way to apologize for people you don't consider part of what you represent?

Thing is the Tea Party message crosses party lines and effects both parties. True, the majority are likely GOP, but the main issues they bring up aren't party specific. Many would rather scrap both parties and start from scratch, to give an idea how fed up they are with both parties but we're stuck with the 2 party system for now and so they're limited to just backing candidates that promise to make the changes they want.

And Fox News does lean right, no argument there, but they have plenty of Liberal commentators too. So you don't just get one side of the story with them and you would hear more protest from their liberal commentators if the problem was as bad as you're suggesting.

I do agree that they need to get all their ducks in a row though. Being more a movement instead of a political group makes them very unorganized and brings up all this uncertainty as to what they truly represent.

If there wasn't literally millions of them I might be more inclined to believe like you that there is something inherently wrong going on with them. But when any nut with a mouthpiece can claim to be part of the party, it does make it hard to get a unaltered message across as it often breaks down to who can yell the loudest or at least can get the camera's attention the most.


I completely agree with that first part 100%. You see it in all politics. Left and right. You see it in Religion. You see it in sports. Hell, you see it when you debate Mac Vs. Windows Vs. Linux with geeks on web forums. It's a part of life. The problem is how it's being delt with in this situation, which I elaborated on above (what I said about the number of occurrences of these whacky signs, remaining silent, and what I said about common beliefs).

Honestly? That's my main concern. I feel there are legit issues that are being overlooked. My hope is that the Tea Party gets its act together, and realize that although people may disagree with them that they're not Hitler. And don't get me wrong, the left needs to get it's shit together too. In general, politics have gotten really nasty in this country these past couple of years. That's what I loved about John Stewarts rally today. I know it seems like I'm picking on the tea party, and I'm not denying my bias towards the left isn't influenced by that. I'm just focusing on them more because they're the predominant group at the time, and it's a common trend you see among them. But totally, BOTH sides need to grow the hell up.

At least in this we can agree, I don't really care if you pick on the Tea Party as that's your right, mostly just pointing out how I see it, but I do think there is a bias in the media in how they are covered. I think we just differ mainly in that I think both the media and the politicians of both sides need to grow up and start to really represent the people and the truth.

But I think this exchange is a better example of how people of differing points of view can discuss the issues. We can agree to disagree and still debate without resorting to degrading each other. Hopefully after the election our politicians can start doing the same and start getting things done for a change.

[cucumberboy]

It is amazing if you study history the coincidences between how the u.s is now and how Germany was before WWII.

I'm a history major, and no. Hitler also expanded Germany's road network significantly; does that mean anyone who does that is like Hitler? Now stop comparing to Hitler. No country has ever had a leader since after WW2 that even resembles Hitler in his goals, methods of achieving them, and actual exocutions of his plans. Comparisons like these are counter-productive and nothing else.