View Full Version : Tony Stark: Hero, Villain, or Antihero?
iSteve
02-10-2007, 02:55 PM
In a related, but separate, question to the direction of the Marvel Universe... now that it seems that Tony Stark's pro-registration side is going to win out, how will he be viewed: hero, villain, or something in between? The Civil War series has portrayed him as something of a bastard. Will Marvel continue down that road, or try to redeem him?
paper
02-10-2007, 03:45 PM
With the Iron Man movie on the way, they're definitely going to be pushing the character (like Venom and all of the black suit appearances on the Spider-man end). And it's unlikely that they'd continually portray him as being in the wrong. The tide's gonna have to turn at some point, and the trick with that is to really focus on Tony vs. classic Avenger villains.
They're not going to be able to do a fully believable turn around, but if they switch gears and keep Tony and his Mighty Avengers busy on something totally unrelated to Civil War, they can deal with his bastard behavior on a gradual level.
Then, it also depends on what happens with Cap, and Tony's reaction to that. He can still be very much on the pre-registration side, but he might not be so gung ho about it. If he were a little more conflicted about these events (and not so thrilled to be working alongside Venom and Bullseye) that might do something to endear him to readers.
iSteve
02-10-2007, 03:50 PM
From some of what I've read, part of the agenda of the Mighty Avengers will be to fight the big bad cosmic villains, but another part will be to track down the New Avengers, who are outlaws. If Marvel pursues the second story line too much, then it is going to be very difficult to redeem Tony.
paper
02-10-2007, 04:09 PM
As muddled as the whole Civil War event has been, the fallout's going to provide a lot of different opportunities for character growth. They have a lot of options. I just hope they don't take the easy way out and have Tony roll around on registration. They've gone too far to fix these relationships with some kind of mutual enemy that forces the two sides together. It has to be something big and it's gonna have to take a good long time.
Tony shouldn't have a change of heart. If registration is ever going to go away, it's going to have to fail as a concept or on the government end. It'd be out of character for him to just give up on it.
He's a dick. I think that the biggest problem story-wise with CW is that they didn't take the time to develop his support for principled reasons. It's gonna happen anyway isn't good enough. No honor in that.
As for pushing the capture the NA storyline, that's supossed to happen sooner rather than later. Bendis said(sorry don't feel like looking so I'm trying to remember) that MA would show up in NA 28 or 29
marcushill73
02-10-2007, 07:05 PM
I'm with Iron Man on the Pro-Registration Movement. He's gonna win this war, and everyone knows it. I am sick of all the pinko-bed-wetting-commies and their civil liberties. Smartin' up folks: runnin' around in spandex unregistered is a thing of the past. I would side with Tony any day of the week. Christ, isn't that what The Illuminati were founded upon in the first place? To make the tough decisions that other couldn't, or wouldn't make? Stick it that bleeding heart Cap for me Tone! You're nearly there mate.
Marcus
Wow, I've been waiting for someone to take the other side. You're the first I've heard in the year this has been going on. Different strokes...
marcushill73
02-10-2007, 08:37 PM
Fred, I think it has been all too easy for readers to side with Anti-Reg'n movement. We all know Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic are right, even if we don't agree with them.
comhcinc
02-10-2007, 08:41 PM
In a related, but separate, question to the direction of the Marvel Universe... now that it seems that Tony Stark's pro-registration side is going to win out, how will he be viewed: hero, villain, or something in between? The Civil War series has portrayed him as something of a bastard. Will Marvel continue down that road, or try to redeem him?
i'm not up on the new stuff but tony has always been a bastard. most ceo are.
marcushill73
02-10-2007, 08:55 PM
Are you generalizing (based on what?) that because most CEO's are bastards, Tony must also fit within this category? WHat about Reed Richards, the aloof inventor, Ms. Marvel, Sentry, and other pro-Registration advocates? How can these individuals be categorized/generalized?
I would suggest it is best to focus on the cause(s) individuals or the Civil War story have undertaken, not the individuals who represent their respective causes. Was Peter parker a bad guy and then became a good guy? Labels are inappropriate.
comhcinc
02-10-2007, 09:05 PM
Are you generalizing (based on what?) that because most CEO's are bastards, Tony must also fit within this category? WHat about Reed Richards, the aloof inventor, Ms. Marvel, Sentry, and other pro-Registration advocates? How can these individuals be categorized/generalized?
I would suggest it is best to focus on the cause(s) individuals or the Civil War story have undertaken, not the individuals who represent their respective causes. Was Peter parker a bad guy and then became a good guy? Labels are inappropriate.
i haven't read any of the civil war comics so i know nothing about all that.
i have been reading iron man comics for years. tony has always been a bastard. he is a flawed character. he has always been a reganite.
mastap
02-10-2007, 10:12 PM
Fred, I think it has been all too easy for readers to side with Anti-Reg'n movement. We all know Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic are right, even if we don't agree with them.
Yeah the concept of Pro-reg is a sensible idea. The problem is obviosly in the excecution, Tony was always a very proud, stubborn figure, his whole character, obviosly steers him toward being the pusher of regestration and it's enforcer. But what marvel did was take that famous mustashe of his, and had him twirl it like there was no tomorow. Sending out teams to prevent vigilantyism (is that a word?) is reasonable. Sending VENOM to prevent vigilantyism is goddamn insane.
marcushill73
02-10-2007, 11:06 PM
I still think people are confusing Tony Stark with the cause of pro-Registration. It could have been any major character of Marvel, perhaps Professor X or Mr. Fantastic. Everybody just loves to hate Tony, and Marvel is doing a great job of making that happen for readers. Cheers Marvel!
comhcinc
02-10-2007, 11:41 PM
I still think people are confusing Tony Stark with the cause of pro-Registration. It could have been any major character of Marvel, perhaps Professor X or Mr. Fantastic. Everybody just loves to hate Tony, and Marvel is doing a great job of making that happen for readers. Cheers Marvel!
i like tony. because he is a bastard. he is and has always been a one of a kind that whats make him cool
jurassicalien
02-10-2007, 11:45 PM
I like Tony Starke, I really do...
But there's a part of me that hopes he just goes full out 50's style villian. LIke a scene where he's looking out the window, twirling his mustache (or beard, depending on the book) and going "I know you're out there Captain America, and I will find you MUahahahahaha!"
If that were the fall out of Civil War, a weird ass 50's villan style Starke, I'd buy every issue.
Are people really looking to seriously defend registration? Are any of your last names Mussolini? Just a question.
Seriously though, you can tell me that you think it's OK to:
1. Arrest people for helping one another rather than thanking them
2. Force people to work for Shield if they intend to live their lives as themselves.
3. In essence, draft superheroes for the work they need them for. Which conceivably could mean that they could be used in foreign policy situations that they have no business in. We need to take out the leader of country A, what do we do? Send Venom? That seems wrong to me on many levels, not the least of which is that we're inviting other countries to do the same.
4. Force people to give up their freedom to make other people feel better. This isn't more screeners at the airport, this is making heroes, excuse me Heroes, give up their anonimity and put their families at risk for the sake of whining parents.
marcushill73
02-11-2007, 01:28 AM
1. The Thunderbolts illustrated for readers the frequent irresponsibility of well-intended superheroes. Think of all the stupid superhero fights we have seen between two good guys who fought over a misconception. I know thsi is comic books, but that just doesn't fly anymore. So yes, people, however well intended need to be held accountable.
2. Each and every person has a choice as to which side they choose. Can anyone comment upon a Marvel hero has been forced to work for S.H.I.E.L.D. Seems like these heroes have been carted off to the Negative Zone. With Marvel Villians, it has been different. This is their chance for redemption. We could get into a whole discussion on the concept of citizenship here, as to responsibility of individual within society. Prior to Civil War, this responsibility has been sporadic at best.
3. The Pro-Registration Act is Legislation. Yes, I am sure there were various superheroes who perhaps advocated for it, but it was passed as legislation meaning it like any other law we have within society. If you disagree with it, constituents could vote for representatives that were Anti-Registration.
4. A flip side I was recently thinking about in relation to this issue of freedom and force, each individual hero and villain has choice as how to proceed after the Registration Act. Imagine if in Thunderbolts Union Jack (or American Flag?) said, "Well, time to hang up the suit." Choice folks, it's all about choice. Choosing how you act in relation to a law, whther that be lobbying for change or complying with the law.
The bottom line though is this
yes, you have a choice to not be a superhero or not use your powers but....
imagine that you're a telepath who has opted not to register or use your powers and you walk into a bank
someone walks in while you're doing your business and begins to rob the place
if you read his mind to see if he'll begin shooting people at random - you've committed a crime punishable by imprisonment in the negative zone
as for:
Can anyone comment upon a Marvel hero has been forced to work for S.H.I.E.L.D.
there have been several instances in the books, Arana being one that comes to mind, where people are pressured to work for Shield. The fact that this is possible even if it's never used makes it wrong
humphrey-lee
02-11-2007, 04:55 AM
Hero written horribly?
engrishjones
10-24-2007, 10:36 PM
I hate to be this way but I really wish that Iron Man was the one who got killed off I cant stand Tony Stark. Is there any rumors of them killing of that guy. Out of all the great characters in the Marvel universe to make another movie off of why do one of him.
labor_days
10-24-2007, 10:41 PM
Iron Man was pretty cool before he turned into the head chief of the superhero Gestapo.
conorkilpatrick
10-24-2007, 10:43 PM
Out of all the great characters in the Marvel universe to make another movie off of why do one of him.
Current douchebaggery or not, he's still one of the seminal characters of the Marvel Universe.
labor_days
10-24-2007, 10:55 PM
There is a lot of potential in a Iron Man movie. You get your whiz-bang effects without having to sell the audience on a guy spontaneously flying (via alien, mystical or some other origin); "genius builds a robot suit" is bit easier to buy. It has a certain practicality to it.
Also got the douchebag/hero dichotomy and the damaged billionaire/alcoholic womanizer angle. I'd say Tony is pretty interesting outside of the suit as well.
iSteve
10-24-2007, 10:59 PM
Current douchebaggery or not, he's still one of the seminal characters of the Marvel Universe.
I think it's possible to argument that Stark is THE seminal character in the 616. He's the hub at the center. Not that this is necessarily a good thing, nonetheless it is the case. With Cap gone, there's no one else with as much power or cache.
engrishjones
10-25-2007, 02:56 AM
Tony Stark should die
esophagus
10-25-2007, 04:49 AM
Tony Stark is an asshole of a person the way he's been written lately, no denying. But he makes for interesting stories at times. One of which will be this movie I'm looking forward too.
sullivan85
10-25-2007, 12:57 PM
One problem with Stark lately is that because he's in half of the books being printed, he's being written 10 different ways. So in some books he's just a prick, but in others he's not so bad. I liked how he was written in the latest Wolverine.
esophagus
10-25-2007, 07:29 PM
One problem with Stark lately is that because he's in half of the books being printed, he's being written 10 different ways. So in some books he's just a prick, but in others he's not so bad. I liked how he was written in the latest Wolverine.
Let me start by saying that I tried replying to this in math earlier this morning. Apparently my teacher has gotten a program that allows her to see whatever I'm doing. She did not like reading the words douchebaggery or prick in people's (and my) posts. Oops.
Now for my reply: I kind of agree. Some books give him a bit of a a motive to being an asshole, others just roll with it and make him an all out ass for no apparent reason. But, I think in general most books give him a purpose, so I'm not to worried.
Villain, hero, or anti-hero? Hmm... I think he's just anti-everyone but himself.
paper
10-25-2007, 10:56 PM
I think we already came to a conclusion on this in a classic thread (http://www.revision3.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4463&highlight=gable). :D
diabhol
10-26-2007, 05:09 AM
Tony Stark is a hero, regardless of whether or not you like or agree with him.
Does anyone here (aside from me) even read Iron Man?
engrishjones
10-26-2007, 10:50 PM
I haven't read much for a few years but i just don't get anything from the character other than pride and arrogance.
labor_days
10-26-2007, 10:59 PM
Well, Iron Man has saved the world a buncha times and donates a large part of his fortune to the public good in the comics.
Not a perfect dude, but heroic nonetheless.
jbeck
10-27-2007, 12:57 AM
Tony Stark is a hero, regardless of whether or not you like or agree with him.
Does anyone here (aside from me) even read Iron Man?
I read it every month and love it. When he's written well, ( in his title and Cap's ) Stark is a figure who reflects the compromises of middle age. Tony is a weary realist in a world ( universe) full of moral absolutists. " this is the way the world is; nobody knows it but me; so I'm the only one who can fix it but I have to sacrifice everything I care about. " Arrogance, power, self sacrifice - Tony is the bitter grown up of the marvel universe. Most 40 year olds can relate. at least this one can.
esophagus
10-27-2007, 01:52 AM
I read it every month and love it. When he's written well, ( in his title and Cap's ) Stark is a figure who reflects the compromises of middle age. Tony is a weary realist in a world ( universe) full of moral absolutists. " this is the way the world is; nobody knows it but me; so I'm the only one who can fix it but I have to sacrifice everything I care about. " Arrogance, power, self sacrifice - Tony is the bitter grown up of the marvel universe. Most 40 year olds can relate. at least this one can.I think you got it. I would say he's an asshole. But it's not because he's a vaillain,m or anti-hero, but because he's a realist. He's a huge public figure, so publicity and public image comes into a lot of stuff. A lot of the dumb things he does he is kind of obligated to do. Out of support of the government and to cover his fan base. He needs to give these people what they want, if he ever wants to get anything back. He is an arrogant billionaire, a position that doesn't often mix well with heroics. The only reason it worked for Bruce Wayne (in my opinion) is because there is that total disconnect between personas.
jbeck
10-28-2007, 10:39 PM
" Realist " really nails it for me. Being a realist requires a certain amount of cynicism, and also brings in the arrogance. Because if you call yourself a realist, you ae implying that other people live in a fantasy world. There's also an element of implying you are strong enough to face the real world and everybody else is too weak to do so.
labor_days
10-28-2007, 10:58 PM
Oliver Queen is a billionaire as well, no?
jbeck
10-28-2007, 11:37 PM
Funny you should mention Ollie, Because I was just thinking one of my favorite GA quotes would work equally well for Stark. It was an old issue of JLA; Ollie, Hal Jordan and Dinah have just escaped from The Manhunters. GL and Black Canary are both injured and need to rest; GA urges them to keep going and makes a long (tiresome ) political speech about the Manhunters and the nature of fanaticism :" they won't quit ! " A panel or so later, the pursuers burst thru the forest, and GA says, " Damn it, why do I always have to be right ? " Sums up Tony's attitude for me.
Except the Marvel writers seem reluctant to let the bad guys come out of the woods at the right moment.